27 Aug
2015
27 Aug
'15
8:19 p.m.
I hope to start backing up my MicroVAX 3800 soon via the TK70. Sounds like
8mm is more unreliable than the TK70, and I don't have but one
magneto-optical disk.
Are there any precautions I need to take before sticking a tape in the
drive? Pinch rollers that might be gooey?
I assume the TK70 drive is backwards compatible with TK50 tapes?
Lastly, I've got some tapes that I couldn't find much info on. Here are the
labels:
ER206200-00 REV G 1.03
P4000 DOWNLINE VMS SOFTWARE
09-29-89
(C) 1988 EMULEX
ER2062014-00 REV A
P4000 LAT-TCP/IP VER 2.00
05/14/90 TK50 (VMS LOAD)
(C) 1990 EMULEX
ER2062014-00 REV 01
P4000 LAT-TCP/IP VER 2.00B2
05/1/90 TK50 (VMS LOAD)
(C) 1990 EMULEX
ER2062014-00 REV 00
P4000 LAT-TCP/IP SOFTWARE
3-22-90 TK50 (VMS LOAD)
(C) 1990 EMULEX
Are any of those worth keeping? Any tips on getting those tapes online
using my VAX? I know there are utilities for the PDP-8 and PDP-11 world,
but being thrown into VAX and VMS so quickly, it may take me a bit to catch
up. Any recommendations on reading material?
I also have a tape for VAX Occam 2 from INMOS. I know what that is, as I
have a 64-node Transputer array. It'd be nice to get that going at some
point for fun.
Thanks,
Kyle
27 Aug
27 Aug
8:35 p.m.
Hi Kyle,
Any updates for the trip?
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Kyle Owen <kylevowen at gmail.com> wrote:
I hope to start backing up my MicroVAX 3800 soon via
the TK70. Sounds like
8mm is more unreliable than the TK70, and I don't have but one
magneto-optical disk.
Are there any precautions I need to take before sticking a tape in the
drive? Pinch rollers that might be gooey?
I assume the TK70 drive is backwards compatible with TK50 tapes?
Lastly, I've got some tapes that I couldn't find much info on. Here are the
labels:
ER206200-00 REV G 1.03
P4000 DOWNLINE VMS SOFTWARE
09-29-89
(C) 1988 EMULEX
ER2062014-00 REV A
P4000 LAT-TCP/IP VER 2.00
05/14/90 TK50 (VMS LOAD)
(C) 1990 EMULEX
ER2062014-00 REV 01
P4000 LAT-TCP/IP VER 2.00B2
05/1/90 TK50 (VMS LOAD)
(C) 1990 EMULEX
ER2062014-00 REV 00
P4000 LAT-TCP/IP SOFTWARE
3-22-90 TK50 (VMS LOAD)
(C) 1990 EMULEX
Are any of those worth keeping? Any tips on getting those tapes online
using my VAX? I know there are utilities for the PDP-8 and PDP-11 world,
but being thrown into VAX and VMS so quickly, it may take me a bit to catch
up. Any recommendations on reading material?
I also have a tape for VAX Occam 2 from INMOS. I know what that is, as I
have a 64-node Transputer array. It'd be nice to get that going at some
point for fun.
Thanks,
Kyle
8:36 p.m.
Opps, that should have been private, sorry.
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 10:35 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Kyle,
Any updates for the trip?
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 10:19 PM, Kyle Owen <kylevowen at gmail.com> wrote:
I hope to start backing up my MicroVAX 3800 soon
via the TK70. Sounds like
8mm is more unreliable than the TK70, and I don't have but one
magneto-optical disk.
Are there any precautions I need to take before sticking a tape in the
drive? Pinch rollers that might be gooey?
I assume the TK70 drive is backwards compatible with TK50 tapes?
Lastly, I've got some tapes that I couldn't find much info on. Here are
the
labels:
ER206200-00 REV G 1.03
P4000 DOWNLINE VMS SOFTWARE
09-29-89
(C) 1988 EMULEX
ER2062014-00 REV A
P4000 LAT-TCP/IP VER 2.00
05/14/90 TK50 (VMS LOAD)
(C) 1990 EMULEX
ER2062014-00 REV 01
P4000 LAT-TCP/IP VER 2.00B2
05/1/90 TK50 (VMS LOAD)
(C) 1990 EMULEX
ER2062014-00 REV 00
P4000 LAT-TCP/IP SOFTWARE
3-22-90 TK50 (VMS LOAD)
(C) 1990 EMULEX
Are any of those worth keeping? Any tips on getting those tapes online
using my VAX? I know there are utilities for the PDP-8 and PDP-11 world,
but being thrown into VAX and VMS so quickly, it may take me a bit to
catch
up. Any recommendations on reading material?
I also have a tape for VAX Occam 2 from INMOS. I know what that is, as I
have a 64-node Transputer array. It'd be nice to get that going at some
point for fun.
Thanks,
Kyle
9:13 p.m.
On 8/27/2015 10:19 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
I hope to start backing up my MicroVAX 3800 soon via
the TK70. Sounds like
8mm is more unreliable than the TK70, and I don't have but one
magneto-optical disk.
Are there any precautions I need to take before sticking a tape in the
drive? Pinch rollers that might be gooey?
I assume the TK70 drive is backwards compatible with TK50 tapes?
Lastly, I've got some tapes that I couldn't find much info on. Here are the
labels:
ER206200-00 REV G 1.03
P4000 DOWNLINE VMS SOFTWARE
09-29-89
(C) 1988 EMULEX
ER2062014-00 REV A
P4000 LAT-TCP/IP VER 2.00
05/14/90 TK50 (VMS LOAD)
(C) 1990 EMULEX
ER2062014-00 REV 01
P4000 LAT-TCP/IP VER 2.00B2
05/1/90 TK50 (VMS LOAD)
(C) 1990 EMULEX
ER2062014-00 REV 00
P4000 LAT-TCP/IP SOFTWARE
3-22-90 TK50 (VMS LOAD)
(C) 1990 EMULEX
Are any of those worth keeping? Any tips on getting those tapes online
using my VAX? I know there are utilities for the PDP-8 and PDP-11 world,
but being thrown into VAX and VMS so quickly, it may take me a bit to catch
up. Any recommendations on reading material?
I also have a tape for VAX Occam 2 from INMOS. I know what that is, as I
have a 64-node Transputer array. It'd be nice to get that going at some
point for fun.
Thanks,
Kyle
Looking at www.bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex for P4000 I found a manual that
seems to relate t the tapes you have. Those tapes are for an Emulex
terminal server called the Performance 4000-T. If you don't have such a
unit, then those tapes won't be of much value, but I'd suggest you not
throw them away, but instead send them to someone who can image them, or
image them yourself.
Regardless, those tapes won't help you much with your stated goals.
A TK70 can read a TK50 tape, but it can only write on a tape that has
not been written on by a TK50, and the TK50 media would not be
appropriate to use in a TK70 even if it were completely erased:
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_0996.html
(Though the first paragraph switches the TZ30 (SCSI) and the TK50.)
IIRC, the way I did my VAXen backups was to use the standalone BACKUP
utility and wrote TK70 tapes, then transferred an image of those tapes
to my PC via Ethernet.
TK50's and TK70's don't have pinch rollers. Instead, a microprocessor
controls tape speed and tensioning.
There is a technical manual on the TK50 on bitsavers, but not one for
the TK70 (but their are drawings for a TK70). But I did find a TK70
owner's manual here:
http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/0tk70om1.pdf
(Only the Owner's manual - a quick search did not find a technical manual).
Gooooooooooooooogle is your friend..... ;)
JRJ
9:43 p.m.
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 11:13 PM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote:
Looking at www.bitsavers.org/pdf/emulex for P4000 I found a manual that
seems to relate t the tapes you have. Those tapes are for an Emulex
terminal server called the Performance 4000-T. If you don't have such a
unit, then those tapes won't be of much value, but I'd suggest you not
throw them away, but instead send them to someone who can image them, or
image them yourself.
Regardless, those tapes won't help you much with your stated goals.
Definitely wouldn't throw anything like that away. I'll see about imaging
them sometime, or if someone has an immediate need, feel free to contact
me.
A TK70 can read a TK50 tape, but it can only write on a tape that has
not been written on by a TK50, and the TK50 media
would not be
appropriate to use in a TK70 even if it were completely erased:
http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/wiz_0996.html
(Though the first paragraph switches the TZ30 (SCSI) and the TK50.)
Thanks for the link. That's unfortunate to hear, but I suppose the TK50s
wouldn't do me much good anyways. Imagine how many it'd take to back up my
two 1.2 GB Seagate Sabre drives!
IIRC, the way I did my VAXen backups was to use the standalone BACKUP
utility and wrote TK70 tapes, then transferred an
image of those tapes
to my PC via Ethernet.
TK50's and TK70's don't have pinch rollers. Instead, a microprocessor
controls tape speed and tensioning.
There is a technical manual on the TK50 on bitsavers, but not one for
the TK70 (but their are drawings for a TK70). But I did find a TK70
owner's manual here:
http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/dec/0tk70om1.pdf
(Only the Owner's manual - a quick search did not find a technical manual).
Gooooooooooooooogle is your friend..... ;)
Yup, I'm aware of the owner's manual, but my question was more aimed at
"What are the common failure modes of this drive?" rather than how to
operate it. I'll see what it'll take to get my VAX connected via Ethernet.
Looks like I've got the hardware, but not sure about the software just yet.
Sounds like they're reliable enough, so I may see about reading some tapes
in sometime. A friend says I can take some of his TK70s, and another one
said I can take as many 8mm tapes I can carry. Not sure if the latter is
worth it... :)
Kyle
28 Aug
28 Aug
2:44 a.m.
On 2015-08-27 22:43, Kyle Owen wrote:
Yup, I'm aware of the owner's manual, but my
question was more aimed at
"What are the common failure modes of this drive?" rather than how to
operate it. I'll see what it'll take to get my VAX connected via Ethernet.
Looks like I've got the hardware, but not sure about the software just yet.
http://www.netbsd.org/docs/Hardware/Machines/DEC/vax/tk50.html
27 Aug
27 Aug
9:39 p.m.
If I'm not mistaken, TK70 drive can read but not write TK50 tapes.
I have very limited experience with this family of drives so far, but what little I have
is not good. Pictures:
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617511461452013568
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617519989721923584
Maybe my tapes need baking or something to keep the oxide from shedding? I haven't
tried it yet. Unfortunately, my failure mode results in a labor-intensive fiddly manual
tape extraction job followed by manually rewinding tapes into cartridges designed to make
it very difficult to do anything manually, so I haven't found the motivation to resume
experimenting yet. If and when I resume experimenting, I might look into making some sort
of gizmo to let me unlock the two cartridge spool locks and then manually rewind the tape,
without needing to disassemble the cartridge with springs popping out all over the place.
Maybe something 3D printed the depresses the latches, with a crank that engages the
spool?
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
9:45 p.m.
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 11:39 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, TK70 drive can read but not
write TK50 tapes.
I have very limited experience with this family of drives so far, but what
little I have is not good. Pictures:
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617511461452013568
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617519989721923584
Maybe my tapes need baking or something to keep the oxide from shedding? I
haven't tried it yet. Unfortunately, my failure mode results in a
labor-intensive fiddly manual tape extraction job followed by manually
rewinding tapes into cartridges designed to make it very difficult to do
anything manually, so I haven't found the motivation to resume
experimenting yet. If and when I resume experimenting, I might look into
making some sort of gizmo to let me unlock the two cartridge spool locks
and then manually rewind the tape, without needing to disassemble the
cartridge with springs popping out all over the place. Maybe something 3D
printed the depresses the latches, with a crank that engages the spool?
Yikes...I hope mine turns out a bit more reliable than that. As it turns
out, I bought a spare TK70 a while back at a hamfest and rediscovered it
the other day, so if all else fails, I guess I have that to turn to.
Is your 730 booting VMS yet?
Kyle
9:55 p.m.
On Aug 27, 2015, at 21:45, Kyle Owen <kylevowen at
gmail.com> wrote:
Is your 730 booting VMS yet?
Yes! I can boot 7.3 (IIRC) from the R80 or 5.3 (IIRC) from the RL02. I haven't gotten
networking up and running yet, but I did manage to make tape backups of the R80 and RL02
on the TU80 tape drive (I think!).
I've been distracted by different squirrels for a while, but at least I set the
project on the back burner after making some significant progress. I was hoping to use a
TK50 on the VAX and a TK30 on my Sun Ultra 60 to transfer data, but that project yielded
much more frustration than success so far.
If I gain the ability to somehow run a 1/2" magtape drive on one of my modern
computers (Ultra 60, Macbook or Mac Pro) then that could also provide a way to transfer
stuff in both directions.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
10:04 p.m.
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 11:55 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
Nice. I would like to see some more obsolete gear hooked up to modern
computers like you say. I was happy to get my punched card reader
interfaced to my MacBook, but what really impressed me was the fellow in
the northeast who got the RL02 connected via USB to a modern Linux system,
fully usable by the system. That's really cool.
Kyle
On Aug 27, 2015, at 21:45, Kyle Owen
<kylevowen at gmail.com> wrote:
Is your 730 booting VMS yet?
Yes! I can boot 7.3 (IIRC) from the R80 or 5.3 (IIRC) from the RL02. I
haven't gotten networking up and running yet, but I did manage to make tape
backups of the R80 and RL02 on the TU80 tape drive (I think!).
I've been distracted by different squirrels for a while, but at least I
set the project on the back burner after making some significant progress.
I was hoping to use a TK50 on the VAX and a TK30 on my Sun Ultra 60 to
transfer data, but that project yielded much more frustration than success
so far.
If I gain the ability to somehow run a 1/2" magtape drive on one of my
modern computers (Ultra 60, Macbook or Mac Pro) then that could also
provide a way to transfer stuff in both directions.
10:36 p.m.
On Aug 27, 2015, at 22:04, Kyle Owen <kylevowen at
gmail.com> wrote:
what really impressed me was the fellow in
the northeast who got the RL02 connected via USB to a modern Linux system,
fully usable by the system. That's really cool.
Yeah, I think that project is so cool! I had thought about doing something like that, but
he actually did it.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
9:46 p.m.
I can confirm that back in the day (has that been 25 years ago now?) I was
able to read a couple of TK-50's I'd made in school with a TK-70 that I had
access to through a friend's work.
Mind you, even new the TK-50 was a woe-be-gotten piece-of-xxxxx that worked
right about as often as the Cubs win the World Series. I can't imagine the
pain and suffering that you'd go through today to read one.
But good luck! Maybe I just had a run of bad luck with them...
Warner
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 10:39 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
If I'm not mistaken, TK70 drive can read but not
write TK50 tapes.
I have very limited experience with this family of drives so far, but what
little I have is not good. Pictures:
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617511461452013568
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617519989721923584
Maybe my tapes need baking or something to keep the oxide from shedding? I
haven't tried it yet. Unfortunately, my failure mode results in a
labor-intensive fiddly manual tape extraction job followed by manually
rewinding tapes into cartridges designed to make it very difficult to do
anything manually, so I haven't found the motivation to resume
experimenting yet. If and when I resume experimenting, I might look into
making some sort of gizmo to let me unlock the two cartridge spool locks
and then manually rewind the tape, without needing to disassemble the
cartridge with springs popping out all over the place. Maybe something 3D
printed the depresses the latches, with a crank that engages the spool?
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
11:22 p.m.
On Aug 27, 2015, at 9:39 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Maybe my tapes need baking or something to keep the
oxide from shedding?
Yes, your tapes need baking. Even for folks who don't experience problems as
catastrophic as yours, the TK50, TK30, and TK70 will each stall out if it senses the tape
dragging even slightly. That includes for rewind/unload.
ok
bear.
--
until further notice
11:50 p.m.
On Aug 27, 2015, at 23:22 , r.stricklin <bear at
typewritten.org> wrote:
Yes, your tapes need baking. Even for folks who don't experience problems as
catastrophic as yours, the TK50, TK30, and TK70 will each stall out if it senses the tape
dragging even slightly. That includes for rewind/unload.
At least in the case of the TK30, it appears to insist on digging itself further and
further into the hole. It runs the tape forwards first, then it experiences trouble, then
it panics and quits. Each attempt just puts more tape on the take-up reel at best, and can
end up making a tangled mess like the one I pictured. Extracting the tape without cutting
it and dumping it on the floor takes a lot of effort and disassembly.
Ok, so I need to build my media ez-bake oven before I try anything else with my TK drives.
I think I ought to build a cartridge de-interlocker and manual rewinder gizmo, too, to
make the failures less painful. Not this month, but one of these days!
Can the TK50 cartridges be baked as-is, or do the reels need to come out of the casings to
get air flow? I'm new to this magnetic pastry chef stuff. :)
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
28 Aug
28 Aug
12:41 a.m.
On Aug 27, 2015, at 11:50 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
It runs the tape forwards first, then it experiences
trouble, then it panics and quits.
Yes.
Can the TK50 cartridges be baked as-is
It may depend on how effective your setup is, but I bake mine as-is.
ok
bear.
--
until further notice
12:46 a.m.
Given that it's summertime, I wonder if I could just leave the tapes in my truck for a
week to bake them? :)
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
8:44 a.m.
On Aug 28, 2015, at 08:09, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 8/28/15 12:46 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Well, I guess I'll need to build a little convection tape baker, then. Maybe I'll
use something like an Arduino to control the temperature. I want to build a toaster oven
solder reflow over, too, which might use the same controller. But operating at a much
higher temperature, of course.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
leave the tapes in my truck for a week to bake
them? :)
not enough airflow 
8:52 a.m.
If you can find an "American Harvest" food dehydrator, those work great for
baking tapes, low controlled heat, a round form factor and it can hold 10" reels of
tape.
I use one for baking old EIAJ videotape.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 28, 2015, at 11:44 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x
at nf6x.net> wrote:
On Aug 28, 2015, at 08:09, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 8/28/15 12:46 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Well, I guess I'll need to build a little convection tape baker, then. Maybe I'll
use something like an Arduino to control the temperature. I want to build a toaster oven
solder reflow over, too, which might use the same controller. But operating at a much
higher temperature, of course.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
leave the tapes in my truck for a week to bake
them? :)
not enough airflow
8:58 a.m.
On Aug 28, 2015, at 08:52, Matt Patoray
<mspproductions at gmail.com> wrote:
If you can find an "American Harvest" food dehydrator, those work great for
baking tapes, low controlled heat, a round form factor and it can hold 10" reels of
tape.
Interesting! Is the central shaft small enough for 5.25" and 8" floppy disks to
fit in it? I have a lot of 8" disks that need baking, too.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
9:20 a.m.
On 08/28/2015 08:58 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Interesting! Is the central shaft small enough for
5.25" and 8"
floppy disks to fit in it? I have a lot of 8" disks that need baking,
too.
If you've got access to woodworking equipment and some scrap plywood,
you can built one easily enough from parts you may already have lying
about. Insulate with rigid foam (polystyrene insulation works fine).
My only out-of-pocket cost was for the PID controller and some 70C
thermal fuses (you really do want a safety measure). Heat is provided
by a 60W incandescent bulb. I stack 10" reels of tape using old
cottage cheese containers, which fit the hub holes quite neatly.
My oven looks like a nice piece of furniture--and even has casters so it
can be easily rolled around. Not out of place in a living room.
--Chuck
10:29 a.m.
To be honest, an engine block wouldn't look out of place in my living room. :)
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
10:32 a.m.
To be honest, an engine block wouldn't look out of place in my living room. :)
I don't have a living room..... I do have a 'large machine room'[1] which the
previous
owners of the house called a 'living room'
[1] Both the room and the machines I am going to set up in there are large.
I realised the other day that I do not live in a normal house. Apart from the toilet,
every room on the ground floor contains at least one PDP11 (some not set up yet).
-tony
11:09 a.m.
On 2015-08-28 20:07, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, tony duell wrote:
Terminals... WCs only requires terminals... :-)
Johnny
I realised the other day that I do not live in a
normal house. Apart
from the toilet, every room on the ground floor contains at least one
PDP11 (some not set up yet).
Nice!
The WC only has microcomputers? 
11:30 a.m.
New subject: Terminals in the WC, was Re: TK50/TK70 Info
On 08/28/2015 11:09, Johnny Billquist wrote:
On 2015-08-28 20:07, Fred Cisin wrote:
Seems like this thread should now tie into the discussion of germocidal
UV-C lamps in the de-yelowing thread...
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, tony duell wrote:
Terminals... WCs only requires terminals... :-) I realised the other day that I do not live in a
normal house. Apart
from the toilet, every room on the ground floor contains at least one
PDP11 (some not set up yet).
Nice!
The WC only has microcomputers? 
11:43 a.m.
New subject: Terminals in the WC, was Re: TK50/TK70 Info
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, tony duell wrote:
> I realised the other day that I do not live in a normal house. Apart
> from the toilet, every room on the ground floor contains at least one
> PDP11 (some not set up yet).
On 2015-08-28 20:07, Fred Cisin wrote:
> Nice!
> The WC only has microcomputers? Terminals... WCs only requires terminals... :-)
Seems like this thread should now tie into the
discussion of germocidal UV-C
lamps in the de-yellowing thread...
They did say that they were going to do the peroxide soaking in the tub.
And WCs are generally too humid for baking tapes.
12:03 p.m.
Here is a good article about "tape baking"
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 2:09 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> wrote:
On 2015-08-28 20:07, Fred Cisin wrote:
--
Matt Patoray
Owner, MSP Productions
KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, tony duell wrote:
Terminals... WCs only requires terminals... :-)
Johnny
I realised the other day that I do not live in a
normal house. Apart
from the toilet, every room on the ground floor contains at least one
PDP11 (some not set up yet).
Nice!
The WC only has microcomputers?
12:04 p.m.
Well how about pasting in the link...
http://www.wendycarlos.com/bake%20a%20tape/baketape.html
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 3:03 PM, Matt Patoray <mspproductions at gmail.com>
wrote:
Here is a good article about "tape baking"
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 2:09 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se>
wrote:
--
Matt Patoray
Owner, MSP Productions
(330)542-3698
mspproductions at gmail.com
KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign
On 2015-08-28 20:07, Fred Cisin wrote:
--
Matt Patoray
Owner, MSP Productions
KD8AMG Amateur Radio Call Sign
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, tony duell wrote:
Terminals... WCs only requires terminals... :-)
Johnny
I realised the other day that I do not live in a
normal house. Apart
from the toilet, every room on the ground floor contains at least one
PDP11 (some not set up yet).
Nice!
The WC only has microcomputers?
2:19 p.m.
On Aug 28, 2015, at 12:04 , Matt Patoray
<mspproductions at gmail.com> wrote:
Well how about pasting in the link...
http://www.wendycarlos.com/bake%20a%20tape/baketape.html
Thank you very much!
I may try one of those dehydrators just as a path of minimum effort to having a
serviceable tape baker. If the hub is small enough for 8" floppies to fit around it,
then that will be even better.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
9:30 a.m.
On 8/28/2015 10:58 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Interesting. I have yet to experience the need to bake 8" floppies.
JRJ
On Aug 28, 2015, at 08:52, Matt Patoray
<mspproductions at gmail.com> wrote:
If you can find an "American Harvest" food dehydrator, those work great for
baking tapes, low controlled heat, a round form factor and it can hold 10" reels of
tape.
Interesting! Is the central shaft small enough for 5.25" and 8" floppy disks to
fit in it? I have a lot of 8" disks that need baking, too.
10:18 a.m.
On 08/28/2015 09:30 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
Interesting. I have yet to experience the need to
bake 8" floppies.
Clearly, you've never been presented with a load of 8" Radio
Shack-branded floppies...
"Wright Line" and "Wabash" branded floppies seem to share the
undesirable characteristic.
FWIW, I don't think that "sticky shed" has much to do with humidity, at
least according to the audio tape folks. "Sticky bleed" problems are
much nastier. I think that the selection of a food dehydrator was
merely a convenient source of a ready-made temperature-controlled solution.
The "Tapeheads" forum is a good source of information on this.
--Chuck
9:28 a.m.
On 8/28/2015 10:44 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Mine is similar in concept, using a PIC. I use a 250W lamp as the
heating elements, and fans.
JRJ
On Aug 28, 2015, at 08:09, Al Kossow <aek at
bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 8/28/15 12:46 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Well, I guess I'll need to build a little convection tape baker, then. Maybe I'll
use something like an Arduino to control the temperature. I want to build a toaster oven
solder reflow over, too, which might use the same controller. But operating at a much
higher temperature, of course.
leave the tapes in my truck for a week to bake
them? :)
not enough airflow 
9:52 a.m.
On Aug 28, 2015, at 11:44 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x
at nf6x.net> wrote:
...
Well, I guess I'll need to build a little convection tape baker, then. Maybe I'll
use something like an Arduino to control the temperature. I want to build a toaster oven
solder reflow over, too, which might use the same controller. But operating at a much
higher temperature, of course.
If you can puzzle out German, you might find this article worth reading. It describes SMD
reflow in a toaster oven, and some of the pitfalls. The main one is that the temperature
sensor needs to be attached to the board, or to a (blank) copy of that board. If it's
attached to something with a significantly different copper to etch ratio, it will be
heated differently and your board will either not heat enough, or be overheated --
possibly enough to scorch it.
https://www.beta-estore.com/download/rk/RK-10001_76.pdf
paul
10:41 a.m.
On 08/28/2015 11:52 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
I have made thousands of boards in a large GE toaster oven.
I got a ramp-and-soak thermocouple controller on eBay. They
are usually $600-800, but I got it for a song. It allows
you to set temperature ramp rates and hold times. I ramp to
180 C, hold for one minute, than ramp to 230 C (for leaded
solder) or 245 C for lead free, hold for one minute and then
cool rapidly. The trick is to poke a tiny thermocouple into
a plated through hole in one of the boards. Then, the
controller is measuring actual temperature. I tried having
the thermocouple in the air, and the boards got seriously fried.
With good solder paste applied in the right amounts, the
process is totally amazing. I make my own solder stencils
using essentially PC board etching techniques. I make litho
film photomasters with a home-made laser photoplotter, then
use those to expose PC board dry film photoresist to 0.003"
brass shim stock. Develop the resist and etch in ferric
chloride. it is important to shrink the apertures so as not
to get too much solder paste on the chip's pads. The finer
the lead pitch, the more you have to shrink the apertures.
Jon
On Aug 28,
2015, at 11:44 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
...
Well, I guess I'll need to build a little convection tape baker, then. Maybe I'll
use something like an Arduino to control the temperature. I want to build a toaster oven
solder reflow over, too, which might use the same controller. But operating at a much
higher temperature, of course.
If you can puzzle out German, you might find this
article worth reading. It describes SMD reflow in a toaster oven, and some of the
pitfalls. The main one is that the temperature sensor needs to be attached to the board,
or to a (blank) copy of that board. If it's attached to something with a
significantly different copper to etch ratio, it will be heated differently and your board
will either not heat enough, or be overheated -- possibly enough to scorch it.
10:55 a.m.
On Aug 28, 2015, at 10:41 , Jon Elson <elson at
pico-systems.com> wrote:
The trick is to poke a tiny thermocouple into a plated through hole in one of the boards.
Then, the controller is measuring actual temperature. I tried having the thermocouple in
the air, and the boards got seriously fried.
I had planned to tape a thermocouple to the board, but putting it in a plated through hole
seems like an even better idea. For my own board designs, I can make sure to include a
hole of the right diameter for whatever thermocouple I use, at my best guess of an optimum
point on the board to measure temperature.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
7:46 p.m.
On 08/28/2015 12:55 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
I was lucky to get 1000 feet of tiny thermocouple wire in an
odd type (Type E) . But, my temp controller had that type
available in its menu.
Then, the only problem is the temp variation across the size
of the oven, which can be considerable.
Jon
On Aug 28,
2015, at 10:41 , Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
The trick is to poke a tiny thermocouple into a plated through hole in one of the boards.
Then, the controller is measuring actual temperature. I tried having the thermocouple in
the air, and the boards got seriously fried.
I had planned to tape a thermocouple
to the board, but putting it in a plated through hole seems like an even better idea. For
my own board designs, I can make sure to include a hole of the right diameter for whatever
thermocouple I use, at my best guess of an optimum point on the board to measure
temperature.
11:01 p.m.
On Aug 28, 2015, at 19:46, Jon Elson <elson at
pico-systems.com> wrote:
Then, the only problem is the temp variation across the size of the oven, which can be
considerable.
I'm thinking that air circulation should be helpful to reduce hot spots, whether
I'm baking boards or media. I expect that I'll get a much better understanding of
how my layout affects things like tombstoning once I reflow my own boards. I've
designed many a board, but other than ones I've hand soldered myself with irons,
they've all been assembled out of sight and out of mind from me.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
29 Aug
29 Aug
6:55 a.m.
On the American Harvest the center hole is 2.25" across I think an 8"
floppy will fit in that but I am not sure, I don't have any on hand to test
with
On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 2:01 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
--
Matt Patoray
Owner, MSP Productions
KD8AMG
On Aug 28, 2015, at 19:46, Jon Elson <elson at
pico-systems.com> wrote:
Then, the only problem is the temp variation across the size of the
oven, which
can be considerable.
I'm thinking that air circulation should be helpful to reduce hot spots,
whether I'm baking boards or media. I expect that I'll get a much better
understanding of how my layout affects things like tombstoning once I
reflow my own boards. I've designed many a board, but other than ones I've
hand soldered myself with irons, they've all been assembled out of sight
and out of mind from me.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
7:54 a.m.
On Aug 29, 2015, at 06:55, Matt Patoray
<mspproductions at gmail.com> wrote:
On the American Harvest the center hole is 2.25" across I think an 8"
floppy will fit in that but I am not sure, I don't have any on hand to test
with
I don't think 8" floppies will fit, then.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
8 a.m.
But the food dehydrator comes with multiple shelves, and you can cut the center support
out of one of them. That is how I have modified mine to accept 1" C format Videotape
reels.
I am going to b baking some Sony 1/2" EIAJ Videotape today and when I start getting
things set up I will check if I have an 8" floppy I can check with on the I modified
shelves.
Sent from my iPhone
On Aug 29, 2015, at 10:54 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x
at nf6x.net> wrote:
On Aug 29, 2015, at 06:55, Matt Patoray
<mspproductions at gmail.com> wrote:
On the American Harvest the center hole is 2.25" across I think an 8"
floppy will fit in that but I am not sure, I don't have any on hand to test
with
I don't think 8" floppies will fit, then.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
8:45 a.m.
On Aug 29, 2015, at 08:00, Matt Patoray
<mspproductions at gmail.com> wrote:
But the food dehydrator comes with multiple shelves, and you can cut the center support
out of one of them. That is how I have modified mine to accept 1" C format Videotape
reels.
Oh, maybe I misunderstood, then. I thought the center support was some sort of fixed air
duct, and that anything too large to fit between the center and edge would need a center
hole large enough to fit over the center support.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
7:50 a.m.
On 8/28/15 11:01 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
I'm thinking that air circulation should be
helpful to reduce hot spots
Yes, and this has been discussed on this list for at least ten years. Someone I
know who has processed thousands of 1/2" tapes built a very large convection oven
and he told me one of the critical things was to get a lot of airflow into the reel.
8:13 a.m.
On 08/29/2015 01:01 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
Tombstoning is actually quite rare when using good solder
paste. I've done thousands of boards, had a fair share of
head-in-pillow and plain solder failure, but maybe just 6
actual tombstones. Probably the slow temperature ramp with
the toaster oven helps avoid this.
Jon
On Aug 28,
2015, at 19:46, Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com> wrote:
Then, the only problem is the temp variation across the size of the oven, which can be
considerable.
I'm thinking that air circulation should be helpful to reduce hot
spots, whether I'm baking boards or media. I expect that I'll get a much better
understanding of how my layout affects things like tombstoning once I reflow my own
boards. I've designed many a board, but other than ones I've hand soldered myself
with irons, they've all been assembled out of sight and out of mind from me.
28 Aug
28 Aug
7:43 p.m.
On 08/28/2015 12:41 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
On 08/28/2015 11:52 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
I have made thousands of boards in a large GE toaster
oven. <snip snip>
OOps, obviously I completely missed what the original
question was, here.
Jon
On Aug
28, 2015, at 11:44 AM, Mark J. Blair
<nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
...
Well, I guess I'll need to build a little convection
tape baker, then. Maybe I'll use something like an
Arduino to control the temperature. I want to build a
toaster oven solder reflow over, too, which might use
the same controller. But operating at a much higher
temperature, of course.
If you can puzzle out German, you might find this article
worth reading. It describes SMD reflow in a toaster
oven, and some of the pitfalls. The main one is that the
temperature sensor needs to be attached to the board, or
to a (blank) copy of that board. If it's attached to
something with a significantly different copper to etch
ratio, it will be heated differently and your board will
either not heat enough, or be overheated -- possibly
enough to scorch it.
31 Aug
31 Aug
11:23 p.m.
Am 28.08.15 um 06:39 schrieb Mark J. Blair:
I have very limited experience with this family of
drives so far, but what little I have is not good. Pictures:
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617511461452013568
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617519989721923584
I had the exact same problem a
few years ago. Tape sticks to head...
I wanted to use 9 track instead of TK50, but those tapes where
unreliable too. I finally gave up on tapes, any tape technology, as the
media has deteriorated into uselessness.
--
tsch??,
Jochen
1 Sep
1 Sep
12:06 a.m.
Jochen Kunz wrote:
Am 28.08.15 um 06:39 schrieb Mark J. Blair:
Hmm... TK50 and 9 Track reels are pretty old, but I have good results
with "newer" Quarter Inch drives (with 525MB and above) and the DLT IVs
are working pretty good to.
There is no 100% reliable technology..
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
I have very limited experience with this family
of drives so far, but what little I have is not good. Pictures:
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617511461452013568
https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/617519989721923584
I had the exact same problem a
few years ago. Tape sticks to head...
I wanted to use 9 track instead of TK50, but those tapes where
unreliable too. I finally gave up on tapes, any tape technology, as the
media has deteriorated into uselessness.
--
tsch??,
Jochen
3170
days inactive
3174
days old
48 comments
18 participants
participants (18)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bear＠typewritten.org -
bqt＠update.uu.se -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
classiccmp＠crash.com -
cube1＠charter.net -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
emu＠e-bbes.com -
holm＠freibergnet.de -
imp＠bsdimp.com -
jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de -
kylevowen＠gmail.com -
mspproductions＠gmail.com -
nf6x＠nf6x.net -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
useddec＠gmail.com