27 Aug
2015
27 Aug
'15
11:45 a.m.
Brought my Apple //e Platinum to a MARCH workshop last weekend. We used a bottle of a
"B-Blond" which I think is a woman's hair product from England. We painted
it onto the computer case, wrapped the case in Saran Wrap, and left it outside in the
sunlight for a few hours.
The results were dramatic.
Here's a reminder of the "before" showing the top cover. You can see the
original platinum color at the bottom where it tucks into the main case. I don't have
a "before" shot of the main case, but it was as badly yellowed as the top
cover:http://snarc.net/yellowing.jpg.
Here are some "after" shots.
1. Back at home. Notice color difference vs. the disk drives and system saver
--http://snarc.net/desk.jpg.
2. Up-close. See the streaking and slight blotches? I believe that's from where the
sunlight was blocked by trees (as the sun moved vs. the horizon that afternoon) and also
from where the Saran Wrap bunched up in a few places --http://snarc.net/streaks.jpg.
3. De-yellowed case on the right. Case on the left is from another Platinum in the MARCH
collection. I did a quick-and-dirty de-yellowing of the left half of that one, just to
show another before/after shot. Prior to experimenting on it, this is the one that Ian
Primus and others used for pranking me by swapping it with mine, overnight while I slept!
:) --
http://snarc.net/both.jpg.
So my computer isn't perfect and never will be, but overall it was a successful
experiment.
27 Aug
27 Aug
11:55 a.m.
On Aug 27, 2015, at 2:45 PM, Evan Koblentz <evan at
snarc.net> wrote:
Brought my Apple //e Platinum to a MARCH workshop last weekend. We used a bottle of a
"B-Blond" which I think is a woman's hair product from England. We painted
it onto the computer case, wrapped the case in Saran Wrap, and left it outside in the
sunlight for a few hours.
The results were dramatic.
Here's a reminder of the "before" showing the top cover. You can see the
original platinum color at the bottom where it tucks into the main case. I don't have
a "before" shot of the main case, but it was as badly yellowed as the top
cover:http://snarc.net/yellowing.jpg.
Here are some "after" shots.
1. Back at home. Notice color difference vs. the disk drives and system saver
--http://snarc.net/desk.jpg.
2. Up-close. See the streaking and slight blotches? I believe that's from where the
sunlight was blocked by trees (as the sun moved vs. the horizon that afternoon) and also
from where the Saran Wrap bunched up in a few places --http://snarc.net/streaks.jpg.
3. De-yellowed case on the right. Case on the left is from another Platinum in the MARCH
collection. I did a quick-and-dirty de-yellowing of the left half of that one, just to
show another before/after shot. Prior to experimenting on it, this is the one that Ian
Primus and others used for pranking me by swapping it with mine, overnight while I slept!
:) --
http://snarc.net/both.jpg.
So my computer isn't perfect and never will be, but overall it was a successful
experiment.
It does look better. Strange how the yellowing has some sort of negative psychological
effect (myself included) on folks. It would be great if you could take a similar photo
every couple of months to see if/when the yellowing returns. I don?t think I?ve seen
anyone document that process. I?ve only seen anecdotes that the yellowing returns.
12:11 p.m.
It does look better. Strange how the yellowing has
some sort of negative psychological effect (myself included) on folks. It would be great
if you could take a similar photo every couple of months to see if/when the yellowing
returns. I don?t think I?ve seen anyone document that process. I?ve only seen anecdotes
that the yellowing returns.
If I remember...
It looked amazing when I first saw it after a couple of hours in the
sun, but it's still far from the "Platinum" (grey) color that I envisioned:
http://www.gangsenggol.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/snap19.jpg
Wondering if I should have left it in the sun all day vs. just an hour
or two. The immediate difference after the first 90 minutes was so
dramatic that I thought it was "done".
We (MARCH) may invest in a large UV lamp and build an indoor station,
which would be a much more controlled environment for this.
Regarding the keycaps -- Corey Cohen suggested that I remove them and
soak them in 3% peroxide. Going to have to try that.
2:04 p.m.
I don?t think I?ve seen anyone document that process.
I?ve only seen
anecdotes that the yellowing returns.
Yes, it would be good if someone took a month by month series of photos.
My experience is more than an anecdote though...I have the photos to prove
it.
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2013-01-15-retr0bright-only-tempor…
I have seen one other person mention on a discussion forum that they had a
similar result. It would be good to get some other experiences though.
Interestingly, my Lisa 2/5 mentioned in my writeup, hasn't reverted to it's
yellowed state even though it is the only example mentioned above that is
not boxed and sits in light (dim light mind you).. It still seems ok,
which leads me to think that yellowing regression is complex and may depend
a lot on the plastic mix in the first place.
Regarding the keycaps -- Corey Cohen suggested that I
remove them and soak
them in 3% peroxide. Going to have to try that.
Yes, just be careful Evan. If they are grey(ish), it's very easy to
overcook them and get streaking as mentioned in the writeups below. It
works very well for white keys.
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2009-02-05-deyellowing-an-appleIIe…
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-04-11-lisa-keys-retrobrightin…
Terry (Tez)
2:28 p.m.
On Aug 27, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Terry Stewart <terry
at webweavers.co.nz> wrote:
Yes, it would be good if someone took a month by month series of photos.
My experience is more than an anecdote though...I have the photos to prove
it.
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2013-01-15-retr0bright-only-tempor…
Terry (Tez)
Looks like you?ve done it already. Thanks, Tez. I think your observations are very
informative.
28 Aug
28 Aug
8:16 a.m.
On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Terry Stewart <terry at webweavers.co.nz>
wrote:
Well, remember this is with just 3% hydrogen peroxide, which is quite a bit
less than what's in the hair gels (what's it, 20-40%)? I used this on my
commodore 128D, just a handful of parts and it worked fine. It did take
several days to work though, which is probably better as far as the
blooiming and streaking effects that happen with the stronger treatments.
Regarding the keycaps -- Corey Cohen suggested
that I remove them and soak
them in 3% peroxide. Going to have to try that.
9:28 a.m.
> Regarding the keycaps -- Corey Cohen suggested that I remove them and soak them in 3%
peroxide. Going to have to try that.
Well, remember this is with just 3% hydrogen
peroxide, which is quite a bit less than what's in the hair gels (what's it,
20-40%)? I used this on my commodore 128D, just a handful of parts and it worked fine. It
did take
several days to work though, which is probably better as far as the blooiming and
streaking effects that happen with the stronger treatments. 
9:57 a.m.
Ah! That explains my lack of results. I soaked the
keys for five or six
hours. They got clean, but didn't change color very much. Sounds like I
pulled them out too soon. Several days, you say?
Has anyone tried a glass/plexi-glass bath w/ UV lights? It might get expensive if you want
UV lights that are dimmable (to control strength) but UV lights and ballasts are not that
expensive. A simple timer and maybe a reflective surface on the enclosure and you are good
to go. Then real experiments can be done by varying exposure time and concentration of the
solution to see if there is a happy medium. Problem is you need someone with lots of
yellowed parts that they don't mind experimenting on/ruining in the process.
-Ali
10:08 a.m.
Ah! That
explains my lack of results. I soaked the keys for five or six hours. They got clean, but
didn't change color very much. Sounds like I pulled them out too soon. Several days,
you say?
Has anyone tried a glass/plexi-glass bath w/ UV lights? It might get
expensive if you want UV lights that are dimmable (to control strength) but UV lights and
ballasts are not that expensive. A simple timer and maybe a reflective surface on the
enclosure and you are good to go. Then real experiments can be done by varying exposure
time and concentration of the solution to see if there is a happy medium. Problem is you
need someone with lots of yellowed parts that they don't mind experimenting on/ruining
in the process. 
30 Aug
30 Aug
11:08 a.m.
On 08/28/2015 12:08 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote:
We're thinking about building that kind of
"deyellowing station" in the
MARCH warehouse.
Hmm, single UV lamp, couple of stepper motors and a couple of circular
tracks, one set at right angles to the other - plus a few misc. bits and
pieces? ;-)
I'm actually curious whether that would work - I've no idea if the reaction
tails off over time, regardless of the presence of UV, which would mean
that the lamp light would have to sweep quite fast across the target object
in order to provide uniform cover.
J.
4:51 p.m.
On 08/30/2015 11:08 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:
On 08/28/2015 12:08 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote:
I'd wager that a couple of T8 germicidal lamps (UVC) would do the trick
pretty quickly, but they're pricey, unless you have a friend who runs a
slaughterhouse or sewage treatment plant. Can be ordered through Home
Depot.
--Chuck
We're thinking about building that kind of
"deyellowing station" in
the MARCH warehouse.
Hmm, single UV lamp, couple of stepper motors and a couple of
circular tracks, one set at right angles to the other - plus a few
misc. bits and pieces? ;-) 
5:55 p.m.
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 08/30/2015 11:08 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:
Wrong type of UV. You are mostly getting long wave UVA outdoors, so
blacklight lamps would seem to be the correct (and MUCH safer) choice.
When I looked at 24" T8 bi-pin blacklight lamps, they were going for about
USD $10 per lamp.
UVC germicidal lamps would also require an enclosure to protect the user
On 08/28/2015 12:08 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote:
I'd wager that a couple of T8 germicidal lamps (UVC) would do the trick
pretty quickly, but they're pricey, unless you have a friend who runs a
slaughterhouse or sewage treatment plant. Can be ordered through Home
Depot. We're thinking about building that kind of
"deyellowing station" in
the MARCH warehouse.
Hmm, single UV lamp, couple of stepper motors and a couple of circular
tracks, one set at right angles to the other - plus a few misc. bits
and pieces? ;-) from exposure to short wave UV. This isn't as
necessary with long wave UVA
(unless someone was going to be around it for long
periods of time on a
regular basis).
6:17 p.m.
On 08/30/2015 05:55 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
Wrong type of UV. You are mostly getting long wave UVA
outdoors, so
blacklight lamps would seem to be the correct (and MUCH safer) choice.
When I looked at 24" T8 bi-pin blacklight lamps, they were going for
about USD $10 per lamp.
Oh, but there's that aitch-nu thing--I suspect that the UVC lamps would
do the job very quickly. I recall that someone tried the de-yellowing
process with UV LEDs and got nowhere fast. So probably UVB at a minimum.
--Chuck
6:52 p.m.
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 08/30/2015 05:55 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
Maybe...maybe not. I do know from experience that short wave UVC from
germicidal lamps can photodegrade certain plastics, PVC in particular. UVC
germicidal lamps can also cause serious eye damage in very short order.
Even the really small UVC lamps used in an EPROM eraser are hazardous,
which is why they have interlock switches that disable the lamps when
open.
You are going to get a _lot_ more UVA exposure than UVB outdoors, but who
knows. You aren't going to get much UVC outdoors though.
A typical T1-3/4 UV led doesn't put out anywhere near the energy that a
bi-pin/fluorescent lamp does, so unless you had a large array of high
output UV leds, I really wouldn't expect all that much from them.
Wrong type of UV. You are mostly getting long
wave UVA outdoors, so
blacklight lamps would seem to be the correct (and MUCH safer) choice.
When I looked at 24" T8 bi-pin blacklight lamps, they were going for
about USD $10 per lamp.
Oh, but there's that aitch-nu thing--I suspect that the UVC lamps would
do the job very quickly. I recall that someone tried the de-yellowing
process with UV LEDs and got nowhere fast. So probably UVB at a
minimum.
31 Aug
31 Aug
11:43 a.m.
On 08/30/2015 05:55 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
Wrong type of UV. You are mostly getting long wave UVA
outdoors, so
blacklight lamps would seem to be the correct (and MUCH safer)
choice. When I looked at 24" T8 bi-pin blacklight lamps, they were
going for about USD $10 per lamp.
UVC germicidal lamps would also require an enclosure to protect the
user from exposure to short wave UV. This isn't as necessary with
long wave UVA (unless someone was going to be around it for long
periods of time on a regular basis).
Some digging for anectodal evidence (there's very little methodical
technical stuff) on the process indicates that the ordinary
aquarium-style UVA lamps work extremely slowly; the germicidal UVC lamps
work very quickly, but overexposure to UVC is counter-productive in that
it furthers the breakdown of the flame retardant bromine-containing
stuff that caused the yellowing. So perhaps UVB is the best compromise,
assuming that Planck was onto something...
Note that much of the material on the web does not concern computer
equipment.
The most disturbing reports were from the people to de-yellowed
gloss-finish items reporting that said items come out less than glossy,
particularly when percarbonate (Oxiclean) was added to the mix.
Reports were varied and interesting. UV was cited repeatedly as a
suspect when it came to causing yellowing in the first place This flies
in the face of my experience in that I've had gear that's spent almost
all of its life in a closed storage cabinet that yellowed anyway.
Regardless of all of this, it seems that yellowing does recur, which is
what one would expect from what amounts to a surface treatment.
No, I don't plan on using this process...
--Chuck
9:10 p.m.
On 8/31/2015 1:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Reports were varied and interesting. UV was cited repeatedly as a
suspect when it came to causing yellowing in the first place This flies
in the face of my experience in that I've had gear that's spent almost
all of its life in a closed storage cabinet that yellowed anyway.
Regardless of all of this, it seems that yellowing does recur, which is
what one would expect from what amounts to a surface treatment.
No, I don't plan on using this process...
--Chuck
My VT100 is most yellow on the side facing the window, which for years
had ordinary glass. It is less yellow front and back, and almost no
yellow on the side away from the window. Same with its keyboard.
So, in at least some cases, it does seem to be related to how much light
that falls on the surface.
JRU
9:30 p.m.
On 08/31/2015 09:10 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:
My VT100 is most yellow on the side facing the window,
which for
years had ordinary glass. It is less yellow front and back, and
almost no yellow on the side away from the window. Same with its
keyboard.
So, in at least some cases, it does seem to be related to how much
light that falls on the surface.
Yup. I pulled a ITT clone of a AT&T 2500 series desk set phone from the
storage cabinet. You know, the usual made-to-last 50 years iconic
phone. It was a light brownish-beige after I picked it up cheap back in
the 1980s. It has never been used, much less seen the light of day.
Today, the beige has developed an ugly yellow cast--and it's uniform
over the entire phone. The material, as I seem to recall, is ABS (Cycolac).
Oddly, the WE-made same-color phones that I have and are out in the open
(and the same color) don't show this discoloration.
--Chuck
28 Aug
28 Aug
10:22 a.m.
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Ali wrote:
Glass blocks UV light. This is why EPROMS were made with quartz windows
even though glass would have been much cheaper. Regular acrylic plastic
will block UV as well, but special types are available that allow
transmission of UV (such as for sun room roof panels and tanning beds).
Keep in mind also that short wave UV-C (such as a germicidal lamp) is
dangerous to work around, which is why devices such as EPROM erasers
generally have a mechanical interlock to disable the lamp when open. UV-A
(blacklight) is much safer, and would probably give about the same results
as having something out in the sun (UV-C is blocked by the atmosphere
while UV-A isn't).
Ah! That
explains my lack of results. I soaked the keys for five or six
hours. They got clean, but didn't change color very much. Sounds like I
pulled them out too soon. Several days, you say?
Has anyone tried a glass/plexi-glass bath w/ UV lights? It might get
expensive if you want UV lights that are dimmable (to control strength)
but UV lights and ballasts are not that expensive. A simple timer and
maybe a reflective surface on the enclosure and you are good to go. Then
real experiments can be done by varying exposure time and concentration
of the solution to see if there is a happy medium. Problem is you need
someone with lots of yellowed parts that they don't mind experimenting
on/ruining in the process.
10:42 a.m.
Glass blocks UV light. This is why EPROMS were made
with quartz windows
even though glass would have been much cheaper. Regular acrylic plastic
will block UV as well, but special types are available that allow
transmission of UV (such as for sun room roof panels and tanning beds).
My other concern with Plexi-Glass, and this could be completely unfounded,
is that would it etch or get damaged by high concentration peroxide?
-Ali
10:52 a.m.
Glass blocks
UV light. This is why EPROMS were made with quartz windows even though glass would have
been much cheaper. Regular acrylic plastic will block UV as well, but special types are
available that allow
transmission of UV (such as for sun room roof panels and tanning beds).
My other
concern with Plexi-Glass, and this could be completely unfounded, is that would it etch or
get damaged by high concentration peroxide?
11:05 a.m.
Not a concern: we'd just build a walled tub of
sorts, put in enough de-
yellowing solution to cover the yellowed item in question, and have the
plexi sitting well above it. The solution would never be anywhere near
the plexi.
Evan,
Actually I was thinking the tub would be built out of plexi. That way you
could get the same level of light from all around as opposed to just from
the top (hence the reflective surfaced for the container). That way you may
get more even UV illumination on all the surfaces especially in the nooks
and crannies. Just a thought though as it may not improve or make things
worse.
-Ali
3:52 p.m.
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Ali wrote:
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Evan Koblentz wrote:
Why get so elaborate? Last year while I was looking at building an indoor
UV setup, I was considering a simple wooden frame to support four 24" T8
blacklight lamps about a foot or so above my bench. I haven't yet gone
much further than looking at various lamps/fixtures/ballasts since I'm
still not sure de-yellowing many of my computers would be worth the
effort.
Not a concern: we'd just build a walled tub
of sorts, put in enough de-
yellowing solution to cover the yellowed item in question, and have the
plexi sitting well above it. The solution would never be anywhere near
the plexi.
Actually I was thinking the tub would be built out of plexi. That way
you could get the same level of light from all around as opposed to just
from the top (hence the reflective surfaced for the container). That way
you may get more even UV illumination on all the surfaces especially in
the nooks and crannies. Just a thought though as it may not improve or
make things worse.
12:36 p.m.
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Evan Koblentz <evan at snarc.net> wrote:
Ah! That explains my lack of results. I soaked the
keys for five or six
hours. They got clean, but didn't change color very much. Sounds like I
pulled them out too soon. Several days, you say?
The keys float (as noted in T's link), so I just turned them upside-down
in the peroxide.
Yes, in my case I did it in a mostly dark room with a small UV light (that
I use for erasing EEPROMS), so it didn't get a full sun treatment, but it
did take the better part of a week. And, as you say, I had problems with
keys constantly wanting to float away. I figure next time I try it I may
get some silly putty to put in the underside to weigh them down or
something.
1:42 p.m.
On 28/08/2015 20:36, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote:
Yes, in my case I did it in a mostly dark room with a
small UV light (that
I use for erasing EEPROMS), so it didn't get a full sun treatment, but it
did take the better part of a week. And, as you say, I had problems with
keys constantly wanting to float away. I figure next time I try it I may
get some silly putty to put in the underside to weigh them down or
something.
Well, here's an idea for some over-engineering: how about one of the
tumblers that rock collectors use for polishing small stones, or
handloader use for cleaning brass. Make a new cylinder from thin
perspex (it doesn't completely block UVA or UVB) or a large-diameter
glass tube and mount a small UV tube above it. That should ensure that
not only does every surface get covered, but also exposed to the UV.
Or put all the keytops in a small bucket, and put a small aquarium pump
(something like a Micro-Jet MC320) in the bottom. The flow should keep
everything circulating and tumbling.
--
Pete
Pete Turnbull
1:46 p.m.
I use 2 of these in a large plastic tub:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HD6Y4VU?psc=1&redirect=true&ref…
I cut holes in the lid of the tub for them and used tin foil to line the
insides. Seems to work very well for me. I coat the items in bblonde mixed
with a little extra peroxide to make it thinner. Then I have a bottle of
peroxide with a sprayer nozzle that I use to keep everything damp every
hour or so. I usually get good results in < 4 hours.
--
Brian Archer
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 12:36 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans <oltmansg at gmail.com>
wrote:
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Evan Koblentz
<evan at snarc.net> wrote:
Ah! That explains my lack of results. I soaked
the keys for five or six
hours. They got clean, but didn't change color very much. Sounds like I
pulled them out too soon. Several days, you say?
The keys float (as noted in T's link), so I just turned them upside-down
in the peroxide.
Yes, in my case I did it in a mostly dark room with a small UV light (that
I use for erasing EEPROMS), so it didn't get a full sun treatment, but it
did take the better part of a week. And, as you say, I had problems with
keys constantly wanting to float away. I figure next time I try it I may
get some silly putty to put in the underside to weigh them down or
something.
6:15 p.m.
It last long enough to sell on ebay I assume.
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Cetinski
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2015 2:55 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Cc: General at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: De-yellowing results
I?ve only seen anecdotes that the yellowing returns.=
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
3170
days inactive
3175
days old
26 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
archer174＠gmail.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cctalk＠fahimi.net -
cube1＠charter.net -
evan＠snarc.net -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
oltmansg＠gmail.com -
pete＠dunnington.plus.com -
pete＠pski.net -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
terry＠webweavers.co.nz -
tothwolf＠concentric.net