20 Sep
2011
20 Sep
'11
10:52 a.m.
I think some of us like the INM type M keyboard...
If you are brace enough to take the heatstaked 'sandwich' apart and
replace the stkes with screws (I post the method for doign that some
years back), it's easy for one or two of the 'flaps' to jump out of
position when you're putting the bits together again. You then have a
couple of keys that don't work and you have to take the whole thing apart
again.
What I do now is insert a flap then slightly stretch its spring and press
it over the rear of the key plunger housing, forcing the rim of the housing
between the coils of the spring. It'll stay like that, and the flap will
be held in place. Fit all of them, put the rubber sheet, the membrane
sheets and the base plate on, and screw it all together. Then unhook the
springs by running a screwdriver along, and fit the keycaps.
The plastic keyframe can be cafully cut between rows of keys (it
sometimes breaks along these lines anyway). You can then use parts of 2
damaged keyframes to make one good keyboard.
I am not sure what the offical sixe of head for the casing screws is.
It's often quoted as 7/32", which turns out to be a smidgen more than
5.5mm. I've found both my 7/32" and 5.5mm nutdriver fit fine.
Somebody was looking for some tpye M casing screws. Did you find them? I
spent the afternoon making a good tpye M from bits of 2 broken ones, and
thus I have soem bits over :-). I never thown anything away so I've got a
box of flaps, screws, etc. I could probably be persuaded to part wit hthe
casing screws...
-tony
20 Sep
20 Sep
2:11 p.m.
On Tue, 20 Sep 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
I think some of us like the INM type M keyboard...
If you are brace enough to take the heatstaked 'sandwich' apart and
replace the stkes with screws (I post the method for doign that some
years back), it's easy for one or two of the 'flaps' to jump out of
position when you're putting the bits together again. You then have a
couple of keys that don't work and you have to take the whole thing apart
again.
What I do now is insert a flap then slightly stretch its spring and press
it over the rear of the key plunger housing, forcing the rim of the housing
between the coils of the spring. It'll stay like that, and the flap will
be held in place. Fit all of them, put the rubber sheet, the membrane
sheets and the base plate on, and screw it all together. Then unhook the
springs by running a screwdriver along, and fit the keycaps.
That sounds like a keen way of saving time when putting things back
together. One of my Model Ms has developed a problem with the F key such
that even the slightest pressure causes it to trigger rather than
triggering at the snap. I'll probably cut off the plastic rivets and fit
it with screws to get it back to health. I've done that once before and
the results were very good. The one that I reworked with screws went out
of commission when I extracted the controller board in anticipation of
making a USB controller board. Somewhere along the line I lost the case
screws. I think I'll buy a brand-new Model M from Unicomp with a USB
controller when the time comes. Does anyone here have a Unicomp Model M?
I've also been craving a steampunk reworking of the Model M of the sort
that Datamancer makes. If you've seen the show "Warehouse 13", you've
seen one of these on Artie's desk. I think I'd feel better about cutting
apart a Unicomp than cutting up one of my old IBM ones.
Just for warm fuzzies, I like to spray some metal primer and back
Rustoleum on the metal plate. Of course I leave space for the grounding
connection.
The plastic keyframe can be cafully cut between rows
of keys (it
sometimes breaks along these lines anyway). You can then use parts of 2
damaged keyframes to make one good keyboard.
I am not sure what the offical sixe of head for the casing screws is.
It's often quoted as 7/32", which turns out to be a smidgen more than
5.5mm. I've found both my 7/32" and 5.5mm nutdriver fit fine.
Somebody was looking for some tpye M casing screws. Did you find them? I
spent the afternoon making a good tpye M from bits of 2 broken ones, and
thus I have soem bits over :-). I never thown anything away so I've got a
box of flaps, screws, etc. I could probably be persuaded to part wit hthe
casing screws...
That was me. I'm getting some screws from the guy who runs
clickeykeyboards.com. Thanks for the offer.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
21 Sep
21 Sep
10:36 a.m.
On 09/20/2011 05:11 PM, David Griffith wrote:
Is that what they mean by a 'linux layout'?
I am pleased to see that such keyboards are still avaialble. They're not
cheap, but then good things rarely are. But I also feel that spendign an
afternoon to get a working one from bits was worth it (you know me by now
;-)).
-tony
Does anyone here have a Unicomp Model M?
I do, and I'm very happy with it. I bought the one that has the <CTRL>
key where it belongs, to the left of the 'A' key. 
2:01 p.m.
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Hash: SHA1
On 09/21/2011 01:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Is that what they mean by a 'linux layout'?
That's the one!
Barry
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20 Sep
20 Sep
2:34 p.m.
On Tue, 20 Sep 2011, David Griffith wrote:
brand-new Model M from Unicomp with a USB controller
when the time comes.
Does anyone here have a Unicomp Model M?
Yes! Great keyboard!
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
21 Sep
21 Sep
12:18 a.m.
On 20/09/11 22:34, Gene Buckle wrote:
On Tue, 20 Sep 2011, David Griffith wrote:
I've got the APL/2 variant... very high quality replacement, just needs
a few years of use to loosen it up a bit ;)
http://wickensonline.co.uk/apl-unicomp.html
brand-new Model M from Unicomp with a USB
controller when the time
comes. Does anyone here have a Unicomp Model M?
Yes! Great keyboard!
g.
5:01 a.m.
On Tue, 20 Sep 2011, David Griffith wrote:
That was me. I'm getting some screws from the guy
who runs
clickeykeyboards.com. Thanks for the offer.
Interesting site, but a little silly in that nearly everything is "SOLD"
and there's no apparent way to filter for available units. Or, am I
missing something?
(Glad I have a couple dozen Model Ms stacked in the storage unit)
Steve
--
10:33 a.m.
What I do now
is insert a flap then slightly stretch its spring and press
it over the rear of the key plunger housing, forcing the rim of the housing
between the coils of the spring. It'll stay like that, and the flap will
be held in place. Fit all of them, put the rubber sheet, the membrane
sheets and the base plate on, and screw it all together. Then unhook the
springs by running a screwdriver along, and fit the keycaps.
That sounds like a keen way of saving time when putting things back
together. One of my Model Ms has developed a problem with the F key such that even the slightest pressure causes it to trigger
rather than
triggering at the snap. I'll probably cut off the plastic rivets and fit
it with screws to get it back to health. I've done that once before and
the results were very good. The one that I reworked with screws went out
Indeed. It's probably stronger than the original. I don't like heat-stakes...
I noticed a web page where it's suggested you use 2mm screws. What I do
is drill the holes with a 2mm twist dril lan then tap them M2.5. I put
M2.5 screws in from the top side (screwing them into the newly-tapped
holes in the plastic frame), then assemble the flaps, membrane and
baseplate nad fit washers and nuts on the bottom.
You cna't fit screws inthe very bottom edge, it'll not go in the case if
you do. And there are a couple of other places where you either can't fit
a screw or you have to flie the head down to clear the wire loop that
stabilises some of the larger keys.
of commission when I extracted the controller board in
anticipation of
making a USB controller board. Somewhere along the line I lost the case
I of course have the reverse problem. My machien can't sue a USB
keybaord, only an AT one. A PS/2 one is fine, since soldering a 5 pin DIN
plug to the end of the cable is not a problem.
But I do like having a Type M on my PC again.. Much nicer than the POS
that I was using...
-tony
6:32 p.m.
On Wed, 21 Sep 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
I gve you the shortened version last night... Here's the longer story of
my type M...
After assembling it the first time (without hooking the springs over), I
tried it out nad found that 2 or 3 keys were not working. I could live
without Caps Lock, but not without 0 [1]. So I took all the nuts off
again to reloate the flaps. I'd got most of them back in the frame when I
knocked my arm on the side of the bench. The result was that I scattered
the flaps everywhere. I managed to find all but 5 without too much
toruble, and since I was making one good keybaord from 2 dead ones, I had
plenty of spares. Then I released I could anchor the flaps in place by
hooking the springs on, and it all went together very easily.
Ah, yes, I bumped the tray as well, causing the flaps to fly.
That's probably the only problem with the Model M. Some of them have the
rattle-rattle of rivets heads bouncing around.
What I do now is insert a flap then slightly stretch
its spring and press
it over the rear of the key plunger housing, forcing the rim of the housing
between the coils of the spring. It'll stay like that, and the flap will
be held in place. Fit all of them, put the rubber sheet, the membrane
sheets and the base plate on, and screw it all together. Then unhook the
springs by running a screwdriver along, and fit the keycaps.
That sounds like a keen way of saving time when putting things back
together. One of my Model Ms has developed a problem with the F key such that even the
slightest pressure causes it to trigger rather than
triggering at the snap. I'll probably cut off the plastic rivets and fit
it with screws to get it back to health. I've done that once before and
the results were very good. The one that I reworked with screws went out
Indeed. It's probably stronger than the original. I don't like heat-stakes...
I noticed a web page where it's suggested you use
2mm screws. What I do
is drill the holes with a 2mm twist dril lan then tap them M2.5. I put
M2.5 screws in from the top side (screwing them into the newly-tapped
holes in the plastic frame), then assemble the flaps, membrane and
baseplate nad fit washers and nuts on the bottom.
I used the screws themselves to tap the holes.
You cna't fit screws inthe very bottom edge,
it'll not go in the case if
you do. And there are a couple of other places where you either can't fit
a screw or you have to flie the head down to clear the wire loop that
stabilises some of the larger keys.
I found that if you do without the bottom edge screws, there really isn't
any problem. It all sticks together rather strongly. I solved the head
clearance problem by countersinking the screws.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
22 Sep
22 Sep
1:32 p.m.
Ah, yes, I bumped the tray as well, causing the flaps
to fly.
Now you know the trick :-). More seriously, if you hook the springs over
the housigns, you can even turn the whole thing over without the flaps
falling out, and assemble it the right way up if you want to.
Indeed.
It's probably stronger than the original. I don't like heat-stakes...
That's probably the only problem with the Model M. Some of them have the
rattle-rattle of rivets heads bouncing around. I noticed a web page where it's suggested you
use 2mm screws. What I do
is drill the holes with a 2mm twist dril lan then tap them M2.5. I put
M2.5 screws in from the top side (screwing them into the newly-tapped
holes in the plastic frame), then assemble the flaps, membrane and
baseplate nad fit washers and nuts on the bottom.
I used the screws themselves to tap the holes. You cna't fit screws inthe very bottom edge,
it'll not go in the case if
you do. And there are a couple of other places where you either can't fit
a screw or you have to flie the head down to clear the wire loop that
stabilises some of the larger keys.
I found that if you do without the bottom edge screws, there really isn't
any problem. It all sticks together rather strongly. I solved the head clearance problem by countersinking the screws.
I wanted to avoid doing that for fear of weakening the key frame too
much, it's only thin plastic after all. I found that with the exception
of 3 screws on the right hand edge (under the wire loops fro the + and
Enter keys, there's no problem using normal pan-head screws in this
keyboard. For those 3, I had to leave on out and foudn I could file down
the heads of the screws in the other 2 locations sufficiently for the
loops to fit without binding.
-tony
21 Sep
21 Sep
7:59 a.m.
On 20 September 2011 18:52, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I think some of us like the INM type M keyboard...
Somebody was looking for some tpye M casing screws.
Did you find them? I
spent the afternoon making a good tpye M from bits of 2 broken ones, and
thus I have soem bits over :-). I never thown anything away so I've got a
box of flaps, screws, etc. I could probably be persuaded to part wit hthe
casing screws...
I need a spare spacebar for one of mine that the cat knocked off a
table. It's only 99? or so from the Colonies to the Old World, but
shipping would be $15...
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
11:10 a.m.
I need a spare spacebar for one of mine that the cat
knocked off a
table. It's only 99=A2 or so from the Colonies to the Old World, but
shipping would be $15...
I can see if I have the spacebar in my box of bits, if so, I can get it
to you.
Mind you, since I have a pair of cats here, I may need it myself one day...
-tony
12:36 p.m.
On 21 September 2011 19:10, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:?)
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
I need a spare
spacebar for one of mine that the cat knocked off a
table. It's only 99=A2 or so from the Colonies to the Old World, but
shipping would be $15...
I can see if I have the spacebar in my box of bits, if so, I can get it
to you.
Mind you, since I have a pair of cats here, I may need it myself one day...
22 Sep
22 Sep
12:44 p.m.
Mind you,
since I have a pair of cats here, I may need it myself one da=
y...
:=AC) 
3:14 p.m.
On 22 Sep 2011 at 20:44, Tony Duell wrote:
I've asked this many times before, what is it
about classiccmpers and
cats? Logically, having something that is known for jumping onto a
workbench and scattering aprts everywhere nad is known for being a
good electrostatic generator [1] would seem to be a Bad Thing. But I
love them....
Dunno--I had cats for nearly 20 years, but since then, I've always
had two or three dogs. Much, MUCH easier to live with. Cats remind
me of lawyers, particularly the calico ones...
--Chuck
23 Sep
23 Sep
12:57 p.m.
Dunno--I had cats for nearly 20 years, but since then,
I've always
had two or three dogs. Much, MUCH easier to live with. Cats remind
Nah, the last thing I want is something that means I have to go for a
long walk every day. Cats are essentally self-maintaining :-)
me of lawyers, particularly the calico ones...
Mine don't. They seem to have the hacker-nature, at least they dismantle
things (like mice, frogs, etc). They've not got round to reassembling them
yet, but we all had to start somwhere :-).
-tony (and Muon, and Tigger)
2:26 p.m.
On 23 Sep 2011 at 20:57, Tony Duell wrote:
Mine don't. They seem to have the hacker-nature,
at least they
dismantle things (like mice, frogs, etc). They've not got round to
reassembling them yet, but we all had to start somwhere :-).
My last cat was a female calico. It was years before I replaced all
of the outdoor railing posts and tops that she'd scratched to heck.
She hated tubas and would sneak into my practice room to urinate on
them. She loved to pick fights with raccoons (idiotic) and got
chewed up from time to time (vet bills). All in all, she was crazy.
The dogs keep me active and sleep through the night. Nice,
uncomplicated animals that recognize me as the pack leader instead of
just another toy who knows where the food is kept.
There was a time when her existence overlapped that of a couple of
golden retrievers here. One day I discovered that a mouse was in the
garage and chewing on things. I left here there for several hours
and she would do nothing other than watch the stupid rodent. I let
one of the dogs in and within 5 minutes the mouse was dog food.
--Chuck
24 Sep
24 Sep
10:19 a.m.
The dogs keep me active and sleep through the night.
Nice,
I have absolutley no desire to be 'kept active'.
uncomplicated animals that recognize me as the pack
leader instead of
just another toy who knows where the food is kept.
And I think that's the difference. I don't want to dominate and control
another living thing. I am very happy for the cat to live his life,
interacting with me when he chooses. Of course I care for him and feed
him but other than tha4t its his life...
-tony
2:46 p.m.
On 24 Sep 2011 at 18:19, Tony Duell wrote:
And I think that's the difference. I don't
want to dominate and
control another living thing. I am very happy for the cat to live his
life, interacting with me when he chooses. Of course I care for him
and feed him but other than tha4t its his life...
Well, there's no accounting for taste. Some people keep fish,
tarantulas, pythons and mice and get what they need. Some people
apparently keep raccoons.
Dogs, on the other hand are real companions, having been bred to the
job since prehistory. They've been by man's side probably as long as
man has hunted for his food.
They're bright, understand a certain amount of speech (they learn
quite rapidly) and form very strong working bonds with their owners.
Their social structure is of the pack, so there must be a pack alpha
and it had better be the human if they're going to live in a human
world.
Show me a seeing-eye cat or service cat for paraplegics. I have yet
to witness a police cat being taken out on a manhunt. Around here,
cats seem to be food for coyotes and cougars. People tend to think
nothing of taking Muffin and her litter of kittens out to the country
and dumping them. Those animals rarely survive for long.
I speak from experience--I had a cat as a child and after I was out
in the world, I had several cats for 20 years. I've had cats and dogs
at the same time. But a dog is something very special.
--Chuck
3:05 p.m.
On 09/24/2011 05:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Dogs, on the other hand are real companions, having
been bred to the
job since prehistory. They've been by man's side probably as long as
man has hunted for his food.
They're bright, understand a certain amount of speech (they learn
quite rapidly) and form very strong working bonds with their owners.
Their social structure is of the pack, so there must be a pack alpha
and it had better be the human if they're going to live in a human
world.
Show me a seeing-eye cat or service cat for paraplegics. I have yet
to witness a police cat being taken out on a manhunt. Around here,
cats seem to be food for coyotes and cougars. People tend to think
nothing of taking Muffin and her litter of kittens out to the country
and dumping them. Those animals rarely survive for long.
I speak from experience--I had a cat as a child and after I was out
in the world, I had several cats for 20 years. I've had cats and dogs
at the same time. But a dog is something very special.
This argument is even older than emacs vs. vi.
For others, myself included, cats are "real companions", bred to it
or not. No, they don't perform seeing eye duties, but then they tend
not to be kept as "work animals" because they're not suited to it, just
like there are no seeing eye cows.
I grew up and lived with both dogs and cats as well, and have been
very close to both, but as a companion and compassionate friend, FOR ME,
there is no better pet than a cat. I tend to see dogs as undignified
animals who will smother anyone with false affection (not to mention
saliva) when they think it will get them food, while a cat is (forgive
me) something very special.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
3:36 p.m.
On 9/24/11 4:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Show me a seeing-eye cat or service cat for
paraplegics. I have yet
to witness a police cat being taken out on a manhunt. Around here,
cats seem to be food for coyotes and cougars. People tend to think
nothing of taking Muffin and her litter of kittens out to the country
and dumping them. Those animals rarely survive for long.
This makes me want to puke, then go hurt someone.
When I was a kid, my father's manufacturing plant was just outside
the city on a major highway. Prime dumping grounds for "Muffin and her
litter of kittens".
If you had ever seen Muffin and her brood about a week after they
were tossed out of a car, you'd not speak of it so lightly. A cluster
of starving, dehydrated, parasite-infested kittens is a sight you never
forget.
Doc
5:57 p.m.
On 24 Sep 2011 at 17:36, Doc Shipley wrote:
This makes me want to puke, then go hurt someone.
I don't know if that's any better than the neighbors letting their
cats run wild. I've got one such across the road. On about three
occasions thus far, I've had to tell them that their cat was a greasy
spot on the road and buzzard food. They just shrug it off and get
another cat.
That does tick me off--but it's not illegal apparently.
--Chuck
25 Sep
25 Sep
7:51 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 24 Sep 2011 at 17:36, Doc Shipley wrote:
I think it very much depends on the cat. Ours come and go as they please,
but they've got miles of woodland to explore without ever going near the
road. On the few occasions I have seen them cross, they've paused at the
edge and checked for traffic before going over.
Of course I'd be heartbroken if they got squished, but I don't think
they're going to - and they really wouldn't get on with being 'indoor'
cats.
cheers
Jules
This makes me want to puke, then go hurt
someone.
I don't know if that's any better than the neighbors letting their
cats run wild. I've got one such across the road. On about three
occasions thus far, I've had to tell them that their cat was a greasy
spot on the road and buzzard food. They just shrug it off and get
another cat.
5:27 p.m.
Doc Shipley wrote:
If you had ever seen Muffin and her brood about a
week after they were
tossed out of a car, you'd not speak of it so lightly. A cluster of
starving, dehydrated, parasite-infested kittens is a sight you never
forget.
Yeah. One of our three cats we rescued from a wood-pile, and was probably
the only one of her litter to survive (we caught another who didn't make
it, and the other three took off and doubtless got themselves shot,
poisoned, or eaten, assuming they didn't starve).
We've got three dogs, too. I couldn't possibly say which I thought of as
'better'. Our dogs are better companions - as Chuck says, they understand
body language and speech remarkably well. The cats don't do much other than
eat and sleep and wander around outside (they've never been lap-cats).
But, if anyone's going to get in trouble, it's the dogs... not often, but
once in a while a shoe gets chomped or a roll of toilet paper gets
shredded, and one of the trio is completely obsessed with socks.
(I've just got back from a 1st birthday party for our youngest pooch,
thrown by the folks we got her from. She's snoring by my feet right now.)
cheers
Jules
6:20 p.m.
On 25 Sep 2011 at 19:27, Jules Richardson wrote:
Yeah. One of our three cats we rescued from a
wood-pile, and was
probably the only one of her litter to survive (we caught another who
didn't make it, and the other three took off and doubtless got
themselves shot, poisoned, or eaten, assuming they didn't starve).
My observation was based on reality, not trying to be funny. Cats
abandoned seem to end up as food out here. A neighbor captures
strays and has them spayed or neutered then releases them. I'm not
certain that she's doing them any favors. She leaves food out for
them, but the raccoons get it first.
Dogs, if not snatched by the slimier members of society for use as
dogfighting fodder, usually end up getting found if they're lost.
My wife and I have worked in dog rescue with a statewide group for
the last 20 years or so. We do try to do our part. All of our own
animals have been rescues.
Rabies is a big problem here as it's carried by bats--and we have a
lot of bats. It then makes its way through the raccoon and opossum
populations. I can only assume that stray cats are part of that ugly
picture, since their stupid owners rarely have them vaccinated.
One memory sticks in my mind about our last cat--she wasn't afraid of
anything--until she stalked a turkey. Thereafter, when a flock came
though our yard, she'd run for the safety of the house.
--Chuck
7:44 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 25 Sep 2011 at 19:27, Jules Richardson wrote:
Indeed - I agree with you!
Yeah. One of our three cats we rescued from a
wood-pile, and was
probably the only one of her litter to survive (we caught another who
didn't make it, and the other three took off and doubtless got
themselves shot, poisoned, or eaten, assuming they didn't starve).
My observation was based on reality, not trying to be funny. Cats abandoned seem to end up as food out here.
Yes, same around here. It's a very rural area there are lots of critters
that could get them (eagles are particularly fond of things that are
small-cat-sized)
Thankfully rabies doesn't seem to be a big problem where I live (although
naturally all our pets are up to date on shots - and tagged, and
spayed/neutered).
Dogs, if not snatched by the slimier members of
society for use as
dogfighting fodder, usually end up getting found if they're lost.
There are so few houses around here that people mostly know which pets
belong with which dwelling (I bet I could name every pet for a mile in any
direction) so they do usually get reunited quickly. As it's major deer
country here, drivers are usually pretty alert to things crossing the road
too (and the road has wide culverts either side which their 'owners'
usually keep well-mowed)
One memory sticks in my mind about our last cat--she
wasn't afraid of
anything--until she stalked a turkey. Thereafter, when a flock came
though our yard, she'd run for the safety of the house.
:-) Our 'rescue' cat darts from place to place - she loves being outside,
but only if she's in a building or in the woods; she doesn't like open
spaces at all.
cheers
Jules
10:38 a.m.
On 24 Sep 2011 at 18:19, Tony Duell wrote:
I suspoect that's it. This is, I am sure, even older than the Edsac .vs.
Mancester Mark 1 holy war :-)
And I think that's the difference. I
don't want to dominate and
control another living thing. I am very happy for the cat to live his
life, interacting with me when he chooses. Of course I care for him
and feed him but other than tha4t its his life...
Well, there's no accounting for taste. Some people keep fish, tarantulas, pythons and mice and get what they need.
Some people
apparently keep raccoons.
Dogs, on the other hand are real companions, having been bred to the
Are you suggesting that cat's aren't? I can assure you mine are true
companions who love to be with me when I'm working.
job since prehistory. They've been by man's
side probably as long as
man has hunted for his food.
And IIRC Cats have been used by man for vermin control for many thousands
of years.
If you prefer dgos, fine. I have no problem with that at all. Just accept
that otehrs perfer cats.
Show me a seeing-eye cat or service cat for
paraplegics. I have yet
I don't dispute htat dogs are useful animals to man. That doesn't affect
what I want as a companion.
to witness a police cat being taken out on a manhunt.
Around here,
cats seem to be food for coyotes and cougars. People tend to think
nothing of taking Muffin and her litter of kittens out to the country
YEs, and there are plenty of stories abound abandoned dogs too. IMHO
people who mistreat animals like that should be severely punished (any
animals...)
-tony
22 Sep
22 Sep
4:25 p.m.
On Thu, 22 Sep 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
I've asked this many times before, what is it about classiccmpers and
cats? Logically, having something that is known for jumping onto a
workbench and scattering aprts everywhere nad is known for being a good
electrostatic generator [1] would seem to be a Bad Thing. But I love
them....
[1] To the extent that one of my books on making electrostatic geneators
actually gives a way to charge a leyden jar by stroking a cat :-)
Indeed! Because of my cat, I felt it necessary to mention their playful
tendencies in the P112 manual.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Mind you, since I have a pair of cats here, I may need
it myself one da=
y...
:=AC)
23 Sep
23 Sep
1:02 p.m.
Indeed! Because of my cat, I felt it necessary to
mention their playful
tendencies in the P112 manual.
What did you say?
One of my future Datafile (HPCC magazine) articles on repairing HP9800
machines includes :
'It is probably a good idea to avoid stroking your cat when repairing the
HP9800 memory system\footnote{What? You don't have a cat? No wonder you
are having problems with your HP9800}. '
-tony
2:27 p.m.
On 23 Sep 2011 at 21:02, Tony Duell wrote:
> 'It is probably a good idea to avoid stroking
your cat when
repairing
the HP9800 memory system\footnote{What? You don't
have a cat? No
wonder you are having problems with your HP9800}. '
A cat skin will work just as well as a cat--and doesn't eat as much.
--Chuck
24 Sep
24 Sep
10:16 a.m.
On 23 Sep 2011 at 21:02, Tony Duell wrote:
Or a one teacher at schookl put it 'Ye old ebonite rods and the pieces of
cat' :-)
However, I don't have a problem generating static, I have a problem
keeping it down. I don't need a piece of cat skin to add to the problem.
I do need the cats because they are useful in many other ways (vermin
control, bed warming, an alarm clock (although I wish I could work out
how to set it....) etc.
-tony
> 'It is probably a good idea to avoid
stroking your cat when
repairing
the HP9800 memory system\footnote{What? You
don't have a cat? No
wonder you are having problems with your HP9800}. '
A cat skin will work just as well as a cat--and doesn't eat as much. 
5:19 p.m.
On Sat, Sep 24, 2011 at 06:16:56PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
Somehow I seem to have managed to "program" our furry "alarm clock"
(the
black tomcat) to trigger around 0830 (with the regular (electronic) alarm
clock firing at 0820). Unfortunately, I haven't yet managed to add the
concept of "weekends" ... which means I'll get woken up at 0830 on a
saturday/sunday morning: "Why are you still asleep, don't you have to get
up and go to work??". *sigh*
Cats. Sometimes they can be so annoying but one can't live without the
little furry cute bastards ;-)
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
On 23 Sep 2011 at 21:02, Tony Duell wrote:
Or a one teacher at schookl put it 'Ye old ebonite rods and the pieces of
cat' :-)
However, I don't have a problem generating static, I have a problem
keeping it down. I don't need a piece of cat skin to add to the problem.
I do need the cats because they are useful in many other ways (vermin
control, bed warming, an alarm clock (although I wish I could work out
how to set it....) etc. > 'It is probably a good idea to avoid
stroking your cat when
repairing
the HP9800 memory system\footnote{What? You
don't have a cat? No
wonder you are having problems with your HP9800}. '
A cat skin will work just as well as a cat--and doesn't eat as much.
5:15 p.m.
On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 02:27:09PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 23 Sep 2011 at 21:02, Tony Duell wrote:
It is also far less fun and doesn't purr when petted ;-)
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
> 'It is probably a good idea to avoid
stroking your cat when
repairing
the HP9800 memory system\footnote{What? You
don't have a cat? No
wonder you are having problems with your HP9800}. '
A cat skin will work just as well as a cat--and doesn't eat as much.
23 Sep
23 Sep
4:27 p.m.
On Fri, 23 Sep 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
It's a good idea to have a few paper plates or bowls handy for spreading
parts out while keeping them neatly coralled and organized. Beware that
you'll be playing with small shiny things. Cats like small shiny
things, so make sure cats can't get to your workspace. It's also
extremely important that you do all this on an anti-static surface.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Indeed!
Because of my cat, I felt it necessary to mention their playful
tendencies in the P112 manual.
What did you say?
5:35 p.m.
On 23 Sep 2011 at 16:27, David Griffith wrote:
It's a good idea to have a few paper plates or
bowls handy for
spreading parts out while keeping them neatly coralled and organized.
Yogurt and other diary food plastic containers here. The large ones
(64 oz.) are great for storage--they accept a permanent marker for
indicating the contents (e.g. "PLCC sockets", "14-pin DIP sockets",
"4-40 spacers") and they have secure lids.
For holding parts while disassembling, the smaller ones are great.
They too have lids, so there's no losing parts. And they do double
duty as degreasing containers--just dump the degreasing solvent in,
shake and drain. There's virtually nothing that attacks
polyethylene.
I don't know if they're consducive to building up damaging static
charges as I don't have a cat to rub against them.
--Chuck
24 Sep
24 Sep
10:33 a.m.
Yogurt and other diary food plastic containers here. The large ones
(64 oz.) are great for storage--they accept a permanent marker for
indicating the contents (e.g. "PLCC sockets", "14-pin DIP sockets",
"4-40 spacers") and they have secure lids.
I find such containers very poor for this. The plastic used is designed
ot degrade, and afte a farly short time they fall apart scattering their
contents. They are also a static menace, whether you have a cat or not.
Metal biscuit tins are quite useful though. They don't degrade (although
they can rust), and are naturally faraday cages, so no static problems.
For holding parts while disassembling, the smaller
ones are great.
The best thing I've found for this are those divided plastc parts storage
boxes (I find Raaco are the best). Don't get the new, improved ones with
adjustable partitions, they tend to self-adjust at just the wrong time
(yet another case of an improvemetn for the worse).
When I take something apart, I put related hardware in a compartmetn of
the box. If I feel I am going to forget what thase nuts, screwes, etc
were holding on, I'll put a slip of paper in the compartment too saying
soemthing like 'Mains transformer panel fixings'
They too have lids, so there's no losing parts.
And they do double
duty as degreasing containers--just dump the degreasing solvent in,
shake and drain. There's virtually nothing that attacks
polyethylene.
I don't know if they're consducive to building up damaging static
charges as I don't have a cat to rub against them.
They are, and you don't need a cat to do it...
-tony
12:25 p.m.
On 24 Sep 2011 at 18:33, Tony Duell wrote:
I find such containers very poor for this. The plastic
used is
designed ot degrade, and afte a farly short time they fall apart
scattering their contents. They are also a static menace, whether you
have a cat or not.
Metal biscuit tins are quite useful though. They don't degrade
(although they can rust), and are naturally faraday cages, so no
static problems.
Quite possibly a "cross the puddle" thing. Our containers appear to
be quite heavy-duty; I even have some that have a space for labeling
for reuse. And HDPE tends to be a bit more hygroscopic that hard
plastics, so I don't find any problems with static. These bloody
things seem to last forever. Maybe the UK has different standards.
We don't have "metal biscuit tins" here, but for the annual onslaught
of "Danish Butter Cookies" and "Almond Roca" at Christmastime. I do
use those for hardware (screws and bolts) hellboxes. But they've
gotten flimsier over the years. I may end up reverting to my
father's solution--reuse large metal food cans, such as those used
for baked beans or tomatoes.
The best thing I've found for this are those
divided plastc parts >
storage boxes (I find Raaco are the best). Don't get the new, improved
ones with adjustable partitions, they tend to self-adjust at just
the> wrong time (yet another case of an improvemetn for the worse).
Don't know what those are; Harbor Freight sells some convenient sizes-
-again HDPE oddly enough. Older ones used to be styrene which was
given to getting brittle and breaking.
That probably has to do with the recycling trends in this country. A
lot of recyclers won't take styrene in any form and will scorn bags
of styrene foam in any quantity, so HDPE reigns supreme. My CD jewel
cases are even HPDE--thank heavens.
It probably helps that the RH in this part of the coutnry seems to
always hover near 40-60 percent. It also probably helps that the
house has no wall-to-wall carpeting and my shop area is good old
vinyl composition tile. I can't remember ever having drawn an arc
with my finger in the last 20 years. Just doesn't happen.
--Chuck
12:45 p.m.
The best thing
I've found for this are those divided plastc parts >
storage boxes (I find Raaco are the best). Don't get the new, improved
ones with adjustable partitions, they tend to self-adjust at just
the> wrong time (yet another case of an improvemetn for the worse).
Don't know what those are; Harbor Freight sells some convenient sizes- -again HDPE oddly enough. Older ones used to be
styrene which was
given to getting brittle and breaking.
SOunds like much the same thing.
-tony
5:05 p.m.
That probably has to do with the recycling trends in
this country. ?A
lot of recyclers won't take styrene in any form and will scorn bags
of styrene foam in any quantity, so HDPE reigns supreme.
Most styrene is the expanded type (styrofoam and such), so is a pain
in the ass to transport - very expensive. Most recyclers do not want
to invest money into dedicated compacting equipment just for styrene.
They would loose their shirts.
--
Will
5:51 p.m.
On 24 Sep 2011 at 20:05, William Donzelli wrote:
Most styrene is the expanded type (styrofoam and
such), so is a pain
in the ass to transport - very expensive. Most recyclers do not want
to invest money into dedicated compacting equipment just for styrene.
They would loose their shirts.
The last time I had to do some cleanup after logging, there was a lot
of slash to be burned. I collected all of the styro "peanuts" and
block foam that I could find and dumped it all into a drum of old
diesel. Instant napalm--made a great firestarter.
While it's terrible for the air quality, some old timers still use
tires to start slash burns. They burn very hot.
--Chuck
25 Sep
25 Sep
8:48 a.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
The last time I had to do some cleanup after logging,
there was a lot
of slash to be burned. I collected all of the styro "peanuts" and
block foam that I could find and dumped it all into a drum of old
diesel. Instant napalm--made a great firestarter.
Ooooh! I forgive you for the cat comments....
:^)
Doc
22 Sep
22 Sep
11:18 p.m.
Mind you, since I have a pair of cats here, I may need
it myself one
da=
y...
:=AC) 
23 Sep
23 Sep
1:13 p.m.
On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 08:44:13PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
I've asked this many times before, what is it
about classiccmpers
and cats?
Beats me. I have five dogs, no cats.
--
Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
21 Sep
21 Sep
1:28 p.m.
On Tue, Sep 20, 2011 at 06:52:54PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
I think some of us like the INM type M keyboard...
I've never tried an INM keyboard. :-)
I'm definitely a fan of the IBM Model M keyboard. I've had mine since
the 486 days, and it was used when I got it. So far it's had no need
of repairs. It sort of fell into my lap. I need a new keyboard. I
went to a nearby computer shop to get one. They were out of stock and
loaned me a used model M to use until they got more new keyboards in.
After using the keyboard briefly I called the shop and asked if they
had any model M's for sale. They told me I could just keep the one
they loaned me, free!!
--
Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
1:51 p.m.
On 21 Sep 2011 at 15:28, Kevin Monceaux wrote:
I'm definitely a fan of the IBM Model M keyboard.
I've had mine since
the 486 days, and it was used when I got it. So far it's had no need
of repairs. It sort of fell into my lap. I need a new keyboard. I
went to a nearby computer shop to get one. They were out of stock and
loaned me a used model M to use until they got more new keyboards in.
After using the keyboard briefly I called the shop and asked if they
had any model M's for sale. They told me I could just keep the one
they loaned me, free!!
A couple of years back, the local electronics recycler (which
maintains a small storefront for items they believe will sell)
advertised that they had PS/2 keyboards for $3 the each.
So I went over and asked where they had the PS/2 keyboards. I was
pointed to a rather substantial pile of Dell, E-Machine, Acer, etc.
keyboards. I went back to the counter and said I couldn't find any
PS/2 keyboards. The guy looked at me as if I were an idiot and
walked over, picked up the keyboard lying on top and said "Here."
I responded that he'd offered me a Dell keyboard, not an IBM one and
certainly not one from a PS/2. Quote he "What do you mean, IBM
PS/2?".
Sigh. So quickly we forget...
--Chuck
22 Sep
22 Sep
5:38 a.m.
On 21 September 2011 21:51, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 21 Sep 2011 at 15:28, Kevin Monceaux wrote:
I think that's more than a bit unreasonable, TBH. "PS/2" *is* the
standard name for the connector; if you wanted an /IBM/ keyboard, fair
enough, but if they were PC keyboards and weren't XT, AT or USB, then
they *were* PS/2 keyboards and he was answering perfectly correctly.
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
I'm definitely a fan of the IBM Model M
keyboard. ?I've had mine since
the 486 days, and it was used when I got it. ?So far it's had no need
of repairs. ?It sort of fell into my lap. ?I need a new keyboard. ?I
went to a nearby computer shop to get one. ?They were out of stock and
loaned me a used model M to use until they got more new keyboards in.
After using the keyboard briefly I called the shop and asked if they
had any model M's for sale. ?They told me I could just keep the one
they loaned me, free!!
A couple of years back, the local electronics recycler (which
maintains a small storefront for items they believe will sell)
advertised that they had PS/2 keyboards for $3 the each.
So I went over and asked where they had the PS/2 keyboards. ?I was
pointed to a rather substantial pile of Dell, E-Machine, Acer, ?etc.
keyboards. ?I went back to the counter and said I couldn't find any
PS/2 keyboards. ?The guy looked at me as if I were an idiot and
walked over, picked up the keyboard lying on top and said "Here."
I responded that he'd offered me a Dell keyboard, not an IBM one and
certainly not one from a PS/2. ?Quote he "What do you mean, IBM
PS/2?".
Sigh. ?So quickly we forget...
8:32 a.m.
On 22 Sep 2011 at 13:38, Liam Proven wrote:
I think that's more than a bit unreasonable, TBH.
"PS/2" *is* the
standard name for the connector; if you wanted an /IBM/ keyboard, fair
enough, but if they were PC keyboards and weren't XT, AT or USB, then
they *were* PS/2 keyboards and he was answering perfectly correctly.
Maybe. But the same store has some clerks who differentiate the two
Great Classes of personal computers by "Mac" or "IBM"...
"PS/2-type" would have been more accurate. It's very sad that we
have a keyboard "standard" whose only reference is that of a long-
discontinued product line that few remember or even realize existed.
And let's be clear--it's the connector, not the electrical interface
(which is identical to that of the 5170) that differentiates these.
Surely, a better name could have been developed. Isn't the term
"PS/2" a trademark of IBM in any case?
--Chuck
9:19 a.m.
On 22 September 2011 16:32, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 22 Sep 2011 at 13:38, Liam Proven wrote:
That's fair enough. PCs are commodities now. Don't expert much
expertise from the grunts in the business.
I think that's more than a bit unreasonable,
TBH. "PS/2" *is* the
standard name for the connector; if you wanted an /IBM/ keyboard, fair
enough, but if they were PC keyboards and weren't XT, AT or USB, then
they *were* PS/2 keyboards and he was answering perfectly correctly.
Maybe. ?But the same store has some clerks who differentiate the two
Great Classes of personal computers by "Mac" or "IBM"... "PS/2-type" would have been more accurate.
?It's very sad that we
have a keyboard "standard" whose only reference is that of a long-
discontinued product line that few remember or even realize existed.
Type? No. PS/2-*connector*, maybe.
But it's a good thing that it's been replaced by the
reliably-hot-pluggable USB, because to the mass mind, "PS2" now means
"Playstation 2" - and that's obsolete now, anyway. Room for much
confusion there, as you can attach a keyboard and mouse to a PS2 - but
not PS/2 ones. Overloaded abbreviation.
And let's be clear--it's the connector, not
the electrical interface
(which is identical to that of the 5170) that differentiates these.
Surely, a better name could have been developed. ?Isn't the term
"PS/2" a trademark of IBM in any case?
True, yes, but they didn't seem to mind. Viral marketing, perhaps?
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
1:50 p.m.
['PS/2' keyboards]
And let's be clear--it's the connector, not
the electrical interface
(which is identical to that of the 5170) that differentiates these.
Indeed. I can;t be the only person to have chopped the mini-DIN plug of a
PS/2-compatible keyboard and soldered a 5 pin DIN plug to the cable to
conenct it to a 5170 or clone.
-tony
2:27 p.m.
On Thu, 22 Sep 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
['PS/2' keyboards]
They used to sell adapters for this, I still have a couple in the parts bin.
Alexey
And let's be clear--it's the connector,
not the electrical interface
(which is identical to that of the 5170) that differentiates these.
Indeed. I can;t be the only person to have chopped the mini-DIN plug of a
PS/2-compatible keyboard and soldered a 5 pin DIN plug to the cable to
conenct it to a 5170 or clone.
3:19 p.m.
On 22 Sep 2011 at 21:27, Alexey Toptygin wrote:
They used to sell adapters for this, I still have a
couple in the
parts bin.
One reason that I picked up a bunch of the surplus IBM "Monitor
Saver" gizmos was because of the parts; in particular, they came with
both flavors of mini-DIN to DIN adapters.
If you've got one of the model Ms with the SDL connector as part of
the keyboard, cables in both 5-pin DIN and 6-pin mini-DIN exist;
changing there is a simple matter of swapping a cable.
--Chuck
23 Sep
23 Sep
12:34 p.m.
Indeed. I
can;t be the only person to have chopped the mini-DIN plug of a
PS/2-compatible keyboard and soldered a 5 pin DIN plug to the cable to
conenct it to a 5170 or clone.
They used to sell adapters for this, I still have a couple in the parts bin.
22 Sep
22 Sep
1:47 p.m.
I think that's more than a bit unreasonable, TBH.
"PS/2" *is* the
I have learnt that i have to use incorrect discriptions when talking to
the PC crowd. About 20 years ago, they didn't have a clue what an 'ST412
interface' was but they could understand 'MFM hard disk', for all the 2
descriptions specifiy different things.
And I've yet to meet a PC shop that knows what a DE9 connector is.
standard name for the connector; if you wanted an
/IBM/ keyboard, fair
Is it? I think if you want to any electronics distributor and asked for a
'PS/2 connector' they'd wonder what on earth you meant. a '6 pin
mini-DIN' on the other hand...
And I seem to rememebr that PS/2 was an IBM trade mark.
enough, but if they were PC keyboards and weren't
XT, AT or USB, then
they *were* PS/2 keyboards and he was answering perfectly correctly.
There have been several PCs -- meaning IBM conpatible machines, I am not
going to be totally stupid -- that used interfaces/connectors other than
the above. Many Amstrads, for example. And the Olivetti M24 (AT&T6300).
It wouldn't suprise me if there was an HP PC that used an HP-HIL keyboard
interface. And of course the PC-jr.
And if oyu extend it to mean any machine that runs MS-DOS, there are all
sorts of other ones (Rainbow -- LK201 keyboard, HP150 -- Its own custom
12V-level interface, HP150-II -- HP-HIL, etc)
-tony
23 Sep
23 Sep
10:14 a.m.
On 22 September 2011 21:47, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Yup, I can believe that.
OK, fair call, true, but *in context* there are 3 or maybe 4 PC
keyboard interfaces: PC/AT, PS/2 and USB. As you say, occasionally,
companies have used nonstandard or proprietary connectors, but the
above cover 99.9% of PCs, I reckon.
I think
that's more than a bit unreasonable, TBH. "PS/2" *is* the
I have learnt that i have to use incorrect discriptions when talking to
the PC crowd. About 20 years ago, they didn't have a clue what an 'ST412
interface' was but they could understand 'MFM hard disk', for all the 2
descriptions specifiy different things. And I've yet to meet a PC shop that knows what a
DE9 connector is.
And I've had that myself.
standard name
for the connector; if you wanted an /IBM/ keyboard, fair
Is it? I think if you want to any electronics distributor and asked for a
'PS/2 connector' they'd wonder what on earth you meant. a '6 pin
mini-DIN' on the other hand... And I seem to rememebr that PS/2 was an IBM trade
mark.
Probably, yes, but one that in this context they didn't defend, AFAIK.
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
10:41 a.m.
On 23 Sep 2011 at 18:14, Liam Proven wrote:
OK, fair call, true, but *in context* there are 3 or
maybe 4 PC
keyboard interfaces: PC/AT, PS/2 and USB. As you say, occasionally,
companies have used nonstandard or proprietary connectors, but the
above cover 99.9% of PCs, I reckon.
Exactly (but for the connector) does the PC/AT interface differ from
the PS/2 interface?
--Chuck
6:18 p.m.
On 23 September 2011 18:41, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 23 Sep 2011 at 18:14, Liam Proven wrote:
The connector is a rather important part of the deal. The "standard",
inasmuch as it was one, was a matter of the signalling standards,
protocols /and/ the physical connector.
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
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OK, fair call, true, but *in context* there are 3
or maybe 4 PC
keyboard interfaces: PC/AT, PS/2 and USB. As you say, occasionally,
companies have used nonstandard or proprietary connectors, but the
above cover 99.9% of PCs, I reckon.
Exactly (but for the connector) does the PC/AT interface differ from
the PS/2 interface?
24 Sep
24 Sep
10:36 a.m.
Exactly (but
for the connector) does the PC/AT interface differ from
the PS/2 interface?
The connector is a rather important part of the deal. The "standard", inasmuch as it was one, was a matter of the signalling
standards,
protocols /and/ the physical connector.
-tony
7:19 p.m.
On 24 September 2011 18:36, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I disagree. The conector is a part of the standard, but hardly an
important one.
If the signals are the same (as they are on a PC/AT and PS/2 keyboard
interface), then changing the connector is a 5 minute job with a
soldering iron. If the signal protocol is different, then most likely
I'll have to write new firmware of the microcontroller in the keybaord,
after first reverse-engineering the wiring of the keyswitch matrix, etc.
Which do you think is easier?
I would not be able to do either so it's entirely academic to me.
Nor would I butcher a keyboard like that - I'd just go and get an
appropriate one from the bits pile.
The point is that PS/2 keyboards were not necessarily attached to
PS/2s. They became an extremely widespread industry standard, even
beyond PC compatibles - e.g. later Acorn ARM RISC machines such as the
RiscPC and A4000 and A7000 used them, too, as did some PReP Mac
clones.
Until USB came along, most computer keyboards from the start of the
1990s on, for 15-odd years, were PS/2 keyboards. The name no longer
had anything at all to do with IBM PS/2 computers and continued long
after the PS/2 was completely forgotten except by historians and
collectors. It did not refer to the type of computer it was to be
attached to - it referred to the *combination* of the connector and
the signalling, and the same basic interface was widely used in 2
flavours: PS/2-interface keyboards and PS/2-interface mice.
This was around for about 3? as long as AT keyboards existed for and I
suspect there were hundreds of thousands of times as many PS/2 devices
as AT devices ever made.
It's not about the computer being used. It's not about the connector,
which was used for other things too, I'm sure. It's not about the
protocol, as that was used for other devices with a
physically-incompatible connector. It was the /combination/ of the 2
protocols (K/b and mouse) and the single shared connector. That's what
a PS/2 interface meant.
Q.v. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PS/2_connector
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Exactly (but for the connector) does the PC/AT
interface differ from
the PS/2 interface?
The connector is a rather important part of the deal. The "standard",
8:03 p.m.
On 25 Sep 2011 at 3:19, Liam Proven wrote:
I would not be able to do either so it's entirely
academic to me.
The get a set of cable adapters; no active internals, just one
keyboard connector wired to the opposite gender of the other. I've
used old AT keyboards on newer systems with mini-DIN keyboard jacks
and newer keyboards on older AT-era keyboards. The protocol is close
enough that it gives no problems.
I'll admit that I don't know what happens with the "Windows" key on a
5170, but I suspect it's ignored with or without a beep.
I can't remember if newer "PS/2" keyboards can be clocked faster than
the older "AT" ones, but I've never run into problems.
--Chuck
25 Sep
25 Sep
11:12 a.m.
I'll admit that I don't know what happens with
the "Windows" key on a
5170, but I suspect it's ignored with or without a beep.
I suspect it's OS-dependant. I think the keyboard interface chip (the
8042 i nthe original 5170) will just pass the keycode on. Most OSes I
suspect will ignore it though.
-tony
4:24 p.m.
On 25 Sep 2011 at 13:08, Fred Cisin wrote:
Good point. Almost all of the keyboards that I use daily (IBM and
NCR) lack the Windows key, so if you say that the same sequence is
sent, then I'll trust you.
I hate the idea that every keyboard with the funny symbol must carry
an acknoledgement to MS on the bottom. I wonder if there's a royalty
that goes along with it, or if it's bundled in with the Windows
license.
--Chuck
I'll admit
that I don't know what happens with the "Windows" key on
a 5170, but I suspect it's ignored with or without a beep.
What happens when you press <Ctrl>-<Esc>?
Don't you hate rhetorical questions? 
4:51 p.m.
> > I'll admit that I don't know what
happens with the "Windows" key on
> > a 5170, but I suspect it's ignored with or without a beep.
> What happens when you press <Ctrl>-<Esc>?
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Good point. Almost all of the keyboards that I use
daily (IBM and
NCR) lack the Windows key, so if you say that the same sequence is
sent, then I'll trust you.
I'd have to dig out my TSR keyboard code (or rewrite it) to find out.
It "behaves" the same, from a user perspective, but that doesn't
necessarily mena a hardware match.
I hate the idea that every keyboard with the funny
symbol must carry
an acknoledgement to MS on the bottom. I wonder if there's a royalty
that goes along with it, or if it's bundled in with the Windows
license.
AH, but what happens when the computer company sells a computer with an OS
other than Windoze? Does Microsoft still demand that the windoze license
be paid on EVERYTHING that the company makes, including Linux machines?
Even if not, MS would certainly demand their gram of flesh for the use of
their trademarked "dry rot" (with pieces dribbling off) logo. MS
presented the "new" logo at the 1991 Developers' Conference, and was
surprised that they didn't get enthusiastic response.
5:09 p.m.
On 25/09/11 7:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Yes. I guess you haven't been paying attention...
--Toby
>>
I'll admit that I don't know what happens with the "Windows" key on
>> a 5170, but I suspect it's ignored with or without a beep.
> What happens when you press<Ctrl>-<Esc>?
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Good point. Almost all of the keyboards that I
use daily (IBM and
NCR) lack the Windows key, so if you say that the same sequence is
sent, then I'll trust you.
I'd have to dig out my TSR keyboard code (or rewrite it) to find out.
It "behaves" the same, from a user perspective, but that doesn't
necessarily mena a hardware match.
I hate the idea that every keyboard with the
funny symbol must carry
an acknoledgement to MS on the bottom. I wonder if there's a royalty
that goes along with it, or if it's bundled in with the Windows
license.
AH, but what happens when the computer company sells a computer with an OS
other than Windoze? Does Microsoft still demand that the windoze license
be paid on EVERYTHING that the company makes, including Linux machines? Even if not, MS would certainly demand their gram of
flesh for the use of
their trademarked "dry rot" (with pieces dribbling off) logo. MS
presented the "new" logo at the 1991 Developers' Conference, and was
surprised that they didn't get enthusiastic response.
5:29 p.m.
> AH, but what happens when the computer company
sells a computer with an OS
> other than Windoze? Does Microsoft still demand that the windoze license
> be paid on EVERYTHING that the company makes, including Linux machines?
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011, Toby Thain wrote:
Yes. I guess you haven't been paying attention...
You are correct.
5:55 p.m.
On 25/09/11 8:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
I'd prefer to ignore them completely too, but we all pay a price for
their colossal crime spree in various ways (including this specific
one). When they're gone, we can get back to advancing computing instead
of see it used as a launchpad for extortion.
--Toby
> AH, but
what happens when the computer company sells a computer with an OS
> other than Windoze? Does Microsoft still demand that the windoze license
> be paid on EVERYTHING that the company makes, including Linux machines?
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011, Toby Thain wrote:
Yes. I guess you haven't been paying
attention...
You are correct.
6:11 p.m.
On 9/25/2011 5:55 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
On 25/09/11 8:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
I'd prefer to ignore them completely too, but we all pay a price for
their colossal crime spree in various ways (including this specific
one). When they're gone, we can get back to advancing computing
instead of see it used as a launchpad for extortion.
What, specifically, is holding back this "advancing" of computing?
Plenty of open hardware and open software out there, and people are
doing all sorts of creative things with it.
(I have a pile of PS/2 keyboards without Windows logos that I'd be happy
to donate to your cause, if it'll help...)
Josh
> AH,
but what happens when the computer company sells a computer
> with an OS
> other than Windoze? Does Microsoft still demand that the windoze
> license
> be paid on EVERYTHING that the company makes, including Linux
> machines?
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011, Toby Thain wrote:
Yes. I guess you haven't been paying
attention...
You are correct.
--Toby
7:15 p.m.
On 25/09/11 9:11 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
On 9/25/2011 5:55 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
Yes, all this happens DESPITE the best efforts of this great criminal
toad that still squats over us, skimming here, FUDding there,
continually meditating on new ways of ripping the mainstream off and
lock people in. Criminal DNA to the core. Need to be knocked down to a
size where they are forced to actually compete (since they are incapable
of it, they won't last long in that state). The company will implode
sooner or later, as it has served its original purpose for Gates.
On 25/09/11 8:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
I'd prefer to ignore them completely too, but we all pay a price for
their colossal crime spree in various ways (including this specific
one). When they're gone, we can get back to advancing computing
instead of see it used as a launchpad for extortion.
What, specifically, is holding back this "advancing" of computing?
Plenty of open hardware and open software out there, and people are
doing all sorts of creative things with it. > AH,
but what happens when the computer company sells a computer
> with an OS
> other than Windoze? Does Microsoft still demand that the windoze
> license
> be paid on EVERYTHING that the company makes, including Linux
> machines?
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011, Toby Thain wrote:
Yes. I guess you haven't been paying
attention...
You are correct.
(I have a pile of PS/2 keyboards without Windows logos that I'd be happy
to donate to your cause, if it'll help...)
I must own about 60 keyboards and none of them has a Windows logo, but
thanks.
--Toby
Josh
--Toby
7:23 p.m.
On 9/25/2011 7:15 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
That doesn't sound very specific.
- Josh
What, specifically, is holding back this
"advancing" of computing?
Plenty of open hardware and open software out there, and people are
doing all sorts of creative things with it.
Yes, all this happens DESPITE the best efforts of this great criminal
toad that still squats over us, skimming here, FUDding there,
continually meditating on new ways of ripping the mainstream off and
lock people in. Criminal DNA to the core. Need to be knocked down to a
size where they are forced to actually compete (since they are
incapable of it, they won't last long in that state). The company will
implode sooner or later, as it has served its original purpose for Gates.
26 Sep
26 Sep
6:18 a.m.
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011, Toby Thain wrote:
Yes, all this happens DESPITE the best efforts of this great criminal toad
that still squats over us, skimming here, FUDding there, continually
meditating on new ways of ripping the mainstream off and lock people in.
Criminal DNA to the core. Need to be knocked down to a size where they are
forced to actually compete (since they are incapable of it, they won't last
long in that state). The company will implode sooner or later, as it has
served its original purpose for Gates.
Hyperbole. Ur doin it rite!
g.
--
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http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
I'd prefer to ignore them completely too, but we
all pay a price for
their colossal crime spree in various ways (including this specific
one). When they're gone, we can get back to advancing computing
instead of see it used as a launchpad for extortion.
What, specifically, is holding back this "advancing" of computing?
Plenty of open hardware and open software out there, and people are
doing all sorts of creative things with it.
7:08 p.m.
On 26/09/11 9:18 AM, Gene Buckle wrote:
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011, Toby Thain wrote:
Yes, all this happens DESPITE the best efforts of this great criminal
toad that still squats over us, skimming here, FUDding there,
continually meditating on new ways of ripping the mainstream off and
lock people in. Criminal DNA to the core. Need to be knocked down to a
size where they are forced to actually compete (since they are
incapable of it, they won't last long in that state). The company will
implode sooner or later, as it has served its original purpose for Gates.
Hyperbole. Ur doin it rite!
The criminality is proven, as is the hollowness of what he left behind.
Wait and see.
--Toby
I'd prefer to ignore them completely too, but we
all pay a price for
their colossal crime spree in various ways (including this specific
one). When they're gone, we can get back to advancing computing
instead of see it used as a launchpad for extortion.
What, specifically, is holding back this "advancing" of computing?
Plenty of open hardware and open software out there, and people are
doing all sorts of creative things with it. g.
5:10 p.m.
On Sun, Sep 25, 2011 at 08:09:06PM -0400, Toby Thain wrote:
On 25/09/11 7:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Yes. I guess you haven't been paying attention...
Well, for desktops/servers at home that way around that is to buy them as
components (case, mainboard, ...) - no Microsoft tax. For corporate machines,
you can usually get deals that don't include a Windows license. Laptops
however ... *sigh* - the Thinkpad my employer gave me still as a Windows
license sticker on it even though it only ever runs Linux.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
>>I'll admit that I don't know what happens with the "Windows" key
on
>>a 5170, but I suspect it's ignored with or without a beep.
>What happens when you press<Ctrl>-<Esc>?
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Good point. Almost all of the keyboards that I
use daily (IBM and
NCR) lack the Windows key, so if you say that the same sequence is
sent, then I'll trust you.
I'd have to dig out my TSR keyboard code (or rewrite it) to find out.
It "behaves" the same, from a user perspective, but that doesn't
necessarily mena a hardware match.
I hate the idea that every keyboard with the funny
symbol must carry
an acknoledgement to MS on the bottom. I wonder if there's a royalty
that goes along with it, or if it's bundled in with the Windows
license.
AH, but what happens when the computer company sells a computer with an OS
other than Windoze? Does Microsoft still demand that the windoze license
be paid on EVERYTHING that the company makes, including Linux machines?
27 Sep
27 Sep
6:01 a.m.
Alexander Schreiber wrote:
Laptops
however ... *sigh* - the Thinkpad my employer gave me still as a Windows
license sticker on it even though it only ever runs Linux.
I hate stickers on any of my machines - those Intel ones are just as
annoying. It's a shame machines don't come with them in a little bag and
the user's free to stick them on or ignore them as they wish. Actually, the
same should be true of 'windows' keys on keyboards - a little bag
containing the keys and some plastic blanking plates would be nice ;-)
I just realized that the Model M that I'm typing this on turns 25 in a
couple of months.
cheers
Jules
25 Sep
25 Sep
5:23 p.m.
On 25 September 2011 21:08, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
No, I like 'em.
But for the record, the Windows key - or in Linux circles, where it's
finally getting used these days by Ubuntu Unity, GNOME 3 Shell and
indeed Crunchbang Linux, the "super key" as it's called - does /not/
equate to Ctrl-Esc.
Yes, on Windows, Ctrl-Esc summons the Start menu, and so does the
Super key... but the Super key does loads more besides.
Super+D = show *D*esktop [i.e., hide all windows]
Super+R = *R*un
Super+E = new *E*explorer window
... and dozens more. Ctrl+Esc does not trigger any of these. Sadly.
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I'll admit
that I don't know what happens with the "Windows" key on a
5170, but I suspect it's ignored with or without a beep.
What happens when you press <Ctrl>-<Esc>?
Don't you hate rhetorical questions?
27 Sep
27 Sep
5:56 a.m.
Liam Proven wrote:
On 25 September 2011 21:08, Fred Cisin <cisin at
xenosoft.com> wrote:
No, I like 'em.
But for the record, the Windows key - or in Linux circles, where it's
finally getting used these days by Ubuntu Unity, GNOME 3 Shell and
indeed Crunchbang Linux, the "super key" as it's called - does /not/
equate to Ctrl-Esc.
I suspect you can configure pretty much whatever you want via kernel
keymaps for the console ('man loadkeys') - e.g. I had my laptop set to
generate UK pound symbols when one of the 'windows' keys was pressed in
combination with the 3 key (pound would be shift-3 on a real UK keyboard,
but that's hash on a US one).
IIRC the definitions worked happily under X, too, not just in 'text mode'
console sessions - but I suppose certain window managers might be intrusive
and redefine them without letting the user pick and choose.
cheers
Jules
I'll
admit that I don't know what happens with the "Windows" key on a
5170, but I suspect it's ignored with or without a beep.
What happens when you
press <Ctrl>-<Esc>?
Don't you hate rhetorical questions?
25 Sep
25 Sep
5:06 p.m.
On 25 September 2011 04:03, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 25 Sep 2011 at 3:19, Liam Proven wrote:
Oh, I've got a bunch of them. I don't think I have any PCs left with
AT keyboard ports, though - but I do have an elderly AT-port K/V
switch for which I have been trying for /years/ to assemble enough
AT-to-PS/2 and PS/2-to-AT connectors and extension cables to connect a
PS/2 keyboard to two PS/2 computers via an AT-format switch. I daresay
I will never do it now. :?(
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I would not be able to do either so it's
entirely academic to me.
The get a set of cable adapters; no active internals, just one
keyboard connector wired to the opposite gender of the other. ?I've
used old AT keyboards on newer systems with mini-DIN keyboard jacks
and newer keyboards on older AT-era keyboards. ?The protocol is close
enough that it gives no problems.
26 Sep
26 Sep
11:38 a.m.
Oh, I've got a bunch of them. I don't think I
have any PCs left with
AT keyboard ports, though - but I do have an elderly AT-port K/V
switch for which I have been trying for /years/ to assemble enough
AT-to-PS/2 and PS/2-to-AT connectors and extension cables to connect a
PS/2 keyboard to two PS/2 computers via an AT-format switch. I daresay
I will never do it now. :=AC(
Such adapters were available from Maplin not that long ago, and may still
be. If not, it's pretty easy to make some up (OK, it involves soldering...).
I find the mini-DIN connectors to be painful things to sodler though.
When I needed to make up some cables from my Epson PX4 and PX8 machines,
I found it easier to buy thse RS cables with the plugs already fitted nad
to cut them in half and wire the cut ends to whatever other conenctors I
needed.
-tony
24 Sep
24 Sep
8:26 p.m.
The point is that PS/2 keyboards were not necessarily
attached to
PS/2s. They became an extremely widespread industry standard, even
beyond PC compatibles - e.g. later Acorn ARM RISC machines such as the
RiscPC and A4000 and A7000 used them, too, as did some PReP Mac
clones.
- Newer SGI machines (Indy, Octane, etc)
- PA-RISC machines (712/80, 9000/D210 - these I have and can attest)
- Most things that use external keyboards made after 1990
- (ops, I forgot other options)
25 Sep
25 Sep
11:10 a.m.
On 24 September 2011 18:36, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
I disagree. The conector is a part of the standard, but hardly an
important one.
If the signals are the same (as they are on a PC/AT and PS/2 keyboard
interface), then changing the connector is a 5 minute job with a
soldering iron. If the signal protocol is different, then most likely
I'll have to write new firmware of the microcontroller in the keybaord,
after first reverse-engineering the wiring of the keyswitch matrix, etc.
Which do you think is easier?
I would not be able to do either so it's entirely academic to me.
Firstly, I am suprised you couldn't solder 4 wires onto 4 pins of a DIN
plug. When I was a lad, audio equipment often came with a few unconnected
plugs in the box, an they expected you to solder up the right
interconnecitng cables. How times change...
Secondly, I know very little about medical matters. But I am sure that an
operation to removen ingrowing toenail is a lot simpler than a kidney
transplant (say). And however little electronics yuo know, I am sure you
can judge which of the following 2 procedures is more complicated :
1) Cut off an existing plug, strip the cable, solder 4 wires ot the pins
of a new plug
2) Dismantle a keyboard, trace out how it's wired (so that you know that
hte 'Q' key links column 5 to row 2 or whatever), write a program for the
appropraite microcroller to read that pattern of keys and talk the
appropraite protocol to the host machine, then burn that program into a
microcontroller, desolder the existing microcontroller from the keyboard
PCB and solder in the one you've just programmed.
Exactly (but for the connector) does the PC/AT
interface differ from
the PS/2 interface?
The connector is a rather important part of the deal. The "standard",
Nor would I butcher a keyboard like that - I'd just go and get an
appropriate one from the bits pile.
Not everybody has a 'bits pile' of PC parts... And you might want to use
a particular keyboard because you like the feel (as in the type M that
started this thread). If your type M has the wrong cable, you either have
to track down the right cable, use a differnet keyboard that doesn't feel
as nice, or change the plug. For me, the answer is obvious.
The point is that PS/2 keyboards were not necessarily
attached to
PS/2s. They became an extremely widespread industry standard, even
beyond PC compatibles - e.g. later Acorn ARM RISC machines such as the
RiscPC and A4000 and A7000 used them, too, as did some PReP Mac
clones.
Sure. But PC/AT keyboards (with the larger 5 pin DIN plug) were not
restricted to PC/AT machines only either. I have an X-terminal that uses
one. I think some Whitechapel workstations did too (the Hitec series)
Until USB came along, most computer keyboards from the
start of the
1990s on, for 15-odd years, were PS/2 keyboards. The name no longer
had anything at all to do with IBM PS/2 computers and continued long
True enough. But surely you accept that the name came from the IBM PS/2
machines.
It's not about the computer being used. It's
not about the connector,
which was used for other things too, I'm sure. It's not about the
protocol, as that was used for other devices with a
physically-incompatible connector. It was the /combination/ of the 2
protocols (K/b and mouse) and the single shared connector. That's what
a PS/2 interface meant.
Are you now claiming that a PS/2 interface has to support both a keyboard
and a mouse (one a pair of conencotrs, or by a Y cable, or something)?
Becuase I am sure there are counterexamples to that.
To me, a PS/2 keyboard is fitted with a 6 pin Mini-DIN connector, 4 pins
are actualyl used (ground, +5V, clock, data), and it talks the protocol
described in the appropriate IBM Technical Reference manual. Ditto a PS/2
mouse.
A PC/At keybaord has a 5 pin DIN connector, but the signal protocol is
the same as the one for a PS/2 keybaord. This means you can convert on
into the other by just changin the connector.
I think I'll trust IBM's technical documentation above Wikipedia...
-tony
1:07 p.m.
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
Firstly, I am suprised you couldn't solder 4 wires
onto 4 pins of a DIN
plug. When I was a lad, audio equipment often came with a few unconnected
plugs in the box, an they expected you to solder up the right
interconnecitng cables. How times change...
Why wasn't soldering a required skill in school?
It greatly expands the available pranks.
C'mon! How many hijacked the school PA system?
Secondly, I know very little about medical matters.
But I am sure that an
operation to removen ingrowing toenail is a lot simpler than a kidney
transplant (say).
I doubt that they will perfect EITHER any time soon. My toe hurts, in
spite of having surgery twice.
And however little electronics yuo know, I am sure
you
can judge which of the following 2 procedures is more complicated :
1) Cut off an existing plug, strip the cable, . . .
2) Dismantle a keyboard, trace out how it's wired (so . . .
But which is more FUN?
26 Sep
26 Sep
11:32 a.m.
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
These days, it's probably against health-and-safety to allow the use of
soldering irons in schools... Heck, I am told some UK universities ban
studens from having soldering irons because 'they're a fire risk'. No, I
don't beleive that either (particualrly as students are still allowed to
smoke..)
I was not taught to solder at school (although I taught myself during my
school years)(. Actually, I don't think I was taught anything of use at
school, I taught myself the interesting/useful bits of phuysics,
mathematics, etc. Oh, I learnt plenty of things at school, like how to
pick a lock, how to make a master key, intereting things with 3-phase
mains and so on, but that's not what I was supposed to be learning.
I also never had a teacher who inspried me. Most of them actively
discouraged me...
Firstly, I am suprised you couldn't solder 4
wires onto 4 pins of a DIN
plug. When I was a lad, audio equipment often came with a few unconnected
plugs in the box, an they expected you to solder up the right
interconnecitng cables. How times change...
Why wasn't soldering a required skill in school? It greatly expands the available pranks.
C'mon! How many hijacked the school PA system?
Now that would be telling... But I can reveal I had some XLR connators
around...
Secondly, I know very little about medical
matters. But I am sure that an
operation to removen ingrowing toenail is a lot simpler than a kidney
transplant (say).
I doubt that they will perfect EITHER any time soon. My toe hurts, in
spite of having surgery twice. And however little electronics yuo know, I am
sure you
can judge which of the following 2 procedures is more complicated :
1) Cut off an existing plug, strip the cable, . . .
2) Dismantle a keyboard, trace out how it's wired (so . . .
But which is more FUN?
23 Sep
23 Sep
6:20 p.m.
On 23 September 2011 18:41, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 23 Sep 2011 at 18:14, Liam Proven wrote:
And actually, come to that, now I think of it...
I have no clue about the signalling level stuff, but there were also
PS/2 mice; same physical socket, different signalling. Mice wouldn't
work on keyboard ports and keyboards wouldn't work on mouse ports,
until the very end of the lifetime of the standard.
There were never AT-interface mice - so *something* in there is different.
--
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OK, fair call, true, but *in context* there are 3
or maybe 4 PC
keyboard interfaces: PC/AT, PS/2 and USB. As you say, occasionally,
companies have used nonstandard or proprietary connectors, but the
above cover 99.9% of PCs, I reckon.
Exactly (but for the connector) does the PC/AT interface differ from
the PS/2 interface?
7:06 p.m.
On 24 Sep 2011 at 2:20, Liam Proven wrote:
I have no clue about the signalling level stuff, but
there were also
PS/2 mice; same physical socket, different signalling. Mice wouldn't
work on keyboard ports and keyboards wouldn't work on mouse ports,
until the very end of the lifetime of the standard.
There were never AT-interface mice - so *something* in there is
different.
The lack of interchange betwen the mouse and keyboard is largely a
function of the microcontroller attached to the connectors. It was
not at all uncommon to see 90's "clone" PC keyboards and cases with
two punchouts in the connector area; a large one for the full-sized
DIN connector and a small one for the (PS/2-type) mouse. The
keyboard connector was downsized when the ATX cases and boards came
out.
But the "PS/2 mouse" didn't originate the use of the mini-DIN
connector. That belonged to the Microsoft bus mouse, aka the
"InPort" mouse in which the mouse was pretty much all passives and
the interface board had a dedicated microcontroller.
I've still got a pretty good pile of RS232 mice as well as a couple
of trackballs. Many versions of Windows are smart enough to detect
and configure the serial mouse, even if a PS/2 mouse is also
attached. Makes for some interesting two-handed pointing...
--Chuck
24 Sep
24 Sep
6:48 a.m.
On 24 September 2011 03:06, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 24 Sep 2011 at 2:20, Liam Proven wrote:
Yup.
I have no clue about the signalling level stuff,
but there were also
PS/2 mice; same physical socket, different signalling. Mice wouldn't
work on keyboard ports and keyboards wouldn't work on mouse ports,
until the very end of the lifetime of the standard.
There were never AT-interface mice - so *something* in there is
different.
The lack of interchange betwen the mouse and keyboard is largely a
function of the microcontroller attached to the connectors. ?It was
not at all uncommon to see 90's "clone" PC keyboards and cases with
two punchouts in the connector area; a large one for the full-sized
DIN connector and a small one for the (PS/2-type) mouse. ?The
keyboard connector was downsized when the ATX cases and boards came
out. But the "PS/2 mouse" didn't originate
the use of the mini-DIN
connector. ?That belonged to the Microsoft bus mouse, aka the
"InPort" mouse in which the mouse was pretty much all passives and
the interface board had a dedicated microcontroller.
True - but it is completely incompatible with PS/2 mice.
I've still got a pretty good pile of RS232 mice as
well as a couple
of trackballs. ?Many versions of Windows are smart enough to detect
and configure the serial mouse, even if a PS/2 mouse is also
attached. ?Makes for some interesting two-handed pointing...
Yeah, me too. It might be of use come Windows 8, which supports
multitouch throughout the new Metro interface. :?)
Of course, you can also just connect as many USB mice as you want...
--
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6:21 p.m.
On 9/24/2011 12:01 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/24/2011 09:48 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
I don't think anyone here (or Microsoft itself, for that matter) has
claimed that Microsoft invented a multi-touch interface.
Having said that, Microsoft's Surface had a working prototype in 2003
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Surface) of a multi-touch
interface, this predates the iPhone by a couple of years...
Josh
Yeah, me too. It might be of use come Windows 8,
which supports
multitouch throughout the new Metro interface. :?)
Oh neat, Microsoft has now "invented" a multi-touch user interface?
Wow!
-Dave
6:44 p.m.
New subject: Those are some serious sideburns
7:25 p.m.
New subject: Those are some serious sideburns
On 25 September 2011 02:44, leaknoil <leaknoil at gmail.com> wrote:
Like it!
And yes, they are indeed. If or when I shave off my beard in the
spring, I am tempted to at least temporarily leave a pair of epic
'burns like that. :?D
--
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Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
7:33 p.m.
New subject: Those are some serious sideburns
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011, leaknoil wrote:
The old pics of banks are a nice treat too.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
25 Sep
25 Sep
1:25 a.m.
New subject: Those are some serious sideburns
The first room of our business was more or less equal than the S/360 room.
And the operators worked in formal suit, in my case until the beginning of
the 90's.
And, sadly, no girls as they in all these old photos. Worked all of them for
the great computer companies ? I ever had a deep doubt abot this question.
Regards
SPc.
2011/9/25 David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011, leaknoil wrote:
http://www.blogto.com/tech/**2011/09/vintage_computers_and_**
The old pics of banks are a nice treat too.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
6:23 a.m.
New subject: Those are some serious sideburns
On 25/09/11 4:25 AM, SPC wrote:
The first room of our business was more or less equal
than the S/360 room.
And the operators worked in formal suit, in my case until the beginning of
the 90's.
And, sadly, no girls as they in all these old photos. Worked all of them for
the great computer companies ? I ever had a deep doubt abot this question.
It's marketing. Putting pretty girls in the brochures is a tactic as old
as, well...
--Toby
Regards
SPc.
2011/9/25 David Griffith<dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>
On Sat, 24 Sep 2011, leaknoil wrote:
http://www.blogto.com/tech/**2011/09/vintage_computers_and_**
The old pics of banks are a nice treat too.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
7:25 a.m.
New subject: Those are some serious sideburns
2011/9/25 Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
It's marketing. Putting pretty girls in the brochures is a tactic as old
as, well...
--Toby
Sure, but continue being sad. And more when you compare they with the
company of fellows which worked together (that includes me) in our
datacenters. Keep on running, man.
SPc.
3:37 p.m.
New subject: oldest profession
On Sun, 25 Sep 2011, Fred Cisin wrote:
The notion of prostitution being the oldest profession annoys me. I posit
that the oldest professions in no particular order are soldier/hunter,
farmer/gatherer, chief, and magician/priest.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
It's
marketing. Putting pretty girls in the brochures is a tactic as old
as, well...
Marketing is the third oldest profession, without as much redeeming social
importance as the first two.
3:53 p.m.
New subject: oldest profession
On 09/25/2011 06:37 PM, David Griffith wrote:
The notion of prostitution being the oldest profession annoys me. I
posit that the oldest professions in no particular order are
soldier/hunter, farmer/gatherer, chief, and magician/priest.
...all of which likely utilized the services of prostitutes, creating
a chicken/egg problem.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
It's marketing. Putting pretty girls in the
brochures is a tactic as old
as, well...
Marketing is the third oldest profession, without as much redeeming
social
importance as the first two. 
26 Sep
26 Sep
3:45 p.m.
New subject: oldest profession
--- On Sun, 9/25/11, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
So...none of those guys ever just fell head over heals for one gal??? Heck they'd
have us believe the cavemen just clubbed one over the head and dragged her home to his
cave, w/o any exchange of funds/services.
The notion of
prostitution being the oldest profession
annoys me. I
posit that the oldest professions in no
particular
order are
soldier/hunter, farmer/gatherer, chief, and
magician/priest.
? ...all of which likely utilized the services of
prostitutes, creating a chicken/egg problem.
3:42 p.m.
New subject: oldest profession
--- On Sun, 9/25/11, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote:
The notion of prostitution being the oldest
profession
annoys me.? I posit that the oldest professions in no
particular order are soldier/hunter, farmer/gatherer, chief,
and magician/priest.
It's an invention of the modern age, likely by a liberal/feminist who equated
marriage as a form of prostitution.
Yeah, like people thought of intercourse before food. You'll definitely be dead
before long w/o one, and if it were the case w/the other, I'd be looooong ago dead,
dead, DEAD! As a doornail!
28 Sep
28 Sep
11:12 a.m.
New subject: oldest profession
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Chris M wrote:
It's an invention of the modern age, likely by a
liberal/feminist who
equated marriage as a form of prostitution.
or just a cynic
"Men use material stuff to get sex; women use sex to get material stuff"
Yeah, like people thought of intercourse before food.
You'll definitely
be dead before long w/o one, and if it were the case w/the other, I'd be
looooong ago dead, dead, DEAD! As a doornail!
Ah, but by Darwin's reasoning, if it really came down to a CHOICE, the man
who picks sex has more off-spring.
Is THAT why dinner is such a significant part of the dating ritual?
Not everybody is as fat and horny as we are.
2:38 p.m.
New subject: oldest profession
This is what I love about this group!
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 1:12 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Chris M wrote:
It's an invention of the modern age, likely
by a liberal/feminist who
equated marriage as a form of prostitution.
or just a cynic
"Men use material stuff to get sex; women use sex to get material stuff"
Yeah, like people thought of intercourse before
food. You'll definitely
be dead before long w/o one, and if it were the case w/the other, I'd be
looooong ago dead, dead, DEAD! As a doornail!
Ah, but by Darwin's reasoning, if it really came down to a CHOICE, the man
who picks sex has more off-spring.
Is THAT why dinner is such a significant part of the dating ritual?
Not everybody is as fat and horny as we are.
30 Sep
30 Sep
11:10 a.m.
New subject: oldest profession
Ah, but by
Darwin's reasoning, if it really came down
to a CHOICE, the man
> who picks sex has more off-spring.
24 Sep
24 Sep
10:34 p.m.
On 09/24/2011 09:21 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
I don't think anyone here (or Microsoft itself, for that matter) has
claimed that Microsoft invented a multi-touch interface.
I was just being snarky.
Yeah, me too. It might be of use come Windows 8, which
supports
multitouch throughout the new Metro interface. :?)
Oh neat, Microsoft has now "invented" a multi-touch user interface? Wow!
Having said that, Microsoft's Surface had a
working prototype in 2003
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Surface) of a multi-touch
interface, this predates the iPhone by a couple of years...
Indeed, I remember that demo. It was pretty good stuff!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
7:22 p.m.
On 24 September 2011 20:01, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 09/24/2011 09:48 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
Well, implemented, anyway, yes.
Actually, it's quite innovative - it's significantly unlike the Apple
iOS/Google Android/Palm WebOS type of touch-driven interface.
It's based on and looks much like the interface of Windows Phone 7. It
doesn't have icons and scrollbars and widgets like the others - it's
based on sliding "tiles" which can both launch apps and display
information.
In Win8 there is a whole new programming model for creating apps with
the new interface, which will coexist with the existing "desktop"
interface. Win32 and .NET are effectively deprecated from Win8 on.
It's a very big deal in the PC world. A preview release has been
available since the MICROS~1 "BUILD" conference, about a week ago.
--
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Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
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Yeah, me too. It might be of use come Windows 8, which supports
multitouch throughout the new Metro interface. :?)
?Oh neat, Microsoft has now "invented" a multi-touch user interface? ?Wow!
11:05 p.m.
On 09/24/2011 10:22 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
It's based on and looks much like the interface of
Windows Phone 7. It
doesn't have icons and scrollbars and widgets like the others - it's
based on sliding "tiles" which can both launch apps and display
information.
Hmm, innnnnteresting.
In Win8 there is a whole new programming model for
creating apps with
the new interface, which will coexist with the existing "desktop"
interface. Win32 and .NET are effectively deprecated from Win8 on.
It's a very big deal in the PC world. A preview release has been
available since the MICROS~1 "BUILD" conference, about a week ago.
.NET is being deprecated?? They're still trying to get more people
to move to it! WTF? (not that I'll miss it, but I'll miss the "clean
up" revenue)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
25 Sep
25 Sep
8:33 a.m.
In Win8 there
is a whole new programming model for creating apps with
the new interface, which will coexist with the existing "desktop"
interface. Win32 and .NET are effectively deprecated from Win8 on.
It's a very big deal in the PC world. A preview release has been
available since the MICROS~1 "BUILD" conference, about a week ago.
5:13 p.m.
On 25 September 2011 16:33, Gene Buckle <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
I want to see *precisely* where MS said that Win32 and .Net are being
deprecated. ?I'm calling shennanigans.
MS didn't; it's in the analysis. It's not a big leap of deduction, though.
E.g.
<http://www.osnews.com/story/25158/Crossing_the_Rubicon_Microsoft_Lays_Windows_8_Bare>
<http://blogs.microsoft.co.il/blogs/sasha/archive/2011/09/15/winrt-and-net-in-windows-8.aspx>
<http://www.infoq.com/news/2011/09/WinRT>
(which conflicts nicely with the previous one....)
<http://blogs.remobjects.com/blogs/mh/2011/09/17/p3168>
<http://www.internetappdeveloper.com/?p=1319>
Enough?
It's early days yet - this OS is not even in beta yet - but the
writing is on the wall.
Frankly .NET was only ever an arse-covering response to the threat of
breakup that the DOJ lawsuit brought. Since that scare went away, its
main /raison d'etre/ went away.
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
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In Win8 there is a whole new programming model for
creating apps with
the new interface, which will coexist with the existing "desktop"
interface. Win32 and .NET are effectively deprecated from Win8 on.
It's a very big deal in ?the PC world. A preview release has been
available since the MICROS~1 "BUILD" conference, about a week ago.
6:01 p.m.
On 9/25/2011 5:27 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Microsoft has not said that .NET is being deprecated. (Nor is Win32,
really... Win8 introduces a new development model for touch-centric apps
which moves away from Win32, but there's still the "classic" desktop for
apps where you actually do real work...)
- Josh
interface.
Win32 and .NET are effectively deprecated from Win8 on.
I've been meaning to
learn the .NET IL ASM
now I guess that there's no point?
26 Sep
26 Sep
6:12 a.m.
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Liam Proven wrote:
On 25 September 2011 16:33, Gene Buckle <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
I want to see *precisely* where MS said that Win32 and .Net are being
deprecated. ?I'm calling shennanigans.
MS didn't; it's in the analysis. It's not a big leap of deduction, though.
Well the problem is that both their new Lightswitch & upcoming Visual
Studio 2011 products both fully support the .Net environment. To me, the
only thing that would make .Net better is if the stupid compiler actually
generated native code instead of that runtime crap. Until that point, my
choice for speed under Win32 is going to be Delphi or C++ Builder.
(speaking of which Delphi XE2/C++ Builder XE2 came out a couple of weeks
ago with support for iOS and MacOS)
g.
--
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http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
In Win8 there is a whole new programming model for
creating apps with
the new interface, which will coexist with the existing "desktop"
interface. Win32 and .NET are effectively deprecated from Win8 on.
It's a very big deal in ?the PC world. A preview release has been
available since the MICROS~1 "BUILD" conference, about a week ago.
9:59 a.m.
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Gene Buckle wrote:
Well the problem is that both their new Lightswitch
& upcoming Visual
Studio 2011 products both fully support the .Net environment. To me, the
only thing that would make .Net better is if the stupid compiler actually
generated native code instead of that runtime crap.
Will people be offended if I call that MS-P-code?
It's obviously for trying to create multi-platform aps.
Is MICROS~1 expecting a proliferation of new hardware to have to dominate?
Howzbout: a COMPILER from that to native code, instead of a runtime
interpreter?
It's still going to be INEFFICIENT. But, you can always throw hardware at
it.
Toby would be happy if billg would heed the advice that Diogenes gave
Alexander The Great, instead of following Carnegie.
10:18 a.m.
On 09/26/2011 12:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Heh. It's obviously an attempt at creating lots and lots of vendor
lock-in, and an attempt to be a better Java than Java. The former has
succeeded all over the place.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Well the
problem is that both their new Lightswitch& upcoming Visual
Studio 2011 products both fully support the .Net environment. To me, the
only thing that would make .Net better is if the stupid compiler actually
generated native code instead of that runtime crap.
Will people be offended if I call that MS-P-code?
It's obviously for trying to create multi-platform aps.
4:46 p.m.
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/26/2011 12:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Heh. It's obviously an attempt at creating lots and lots of vendor
lock-in, and an attempt to be a better Java than Java. The former has
succeeded all over the place.
The thing that has always bugged me about .NET is that MS billed it as
cross-platform, then turned right around and made crucial libraries
Windows-only.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Well the
problem is that both their new Lightswitch& upcoming Visual
Studio 2011 products both fully support the .Net environment. To me, the
only thing that would make .Net better is if the stupid compiler actually
generated native code instead of that runtime crap.
Will people be offended if I call that MS-P-code?
It's obviously for trying to create multi-platform aps.
4:55 p.m.
On 09/26/2011 07:46 PM, David Griffith wrote:
The thing that has always bugged me about .NET is that MS billed it as
cross-platform, then turned right around and made crucial libraries
Windows-only.
It's cross-platform, programs run under Windows on ANY PC! ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Will people be offended if I call that MS-P-code?
It's obviously for trying to create multi-platform aps.
Heh. It's obviously an attempt at creating lots and lots of vendor
lock-in, and an attempt to be a better Java than Java. The former has
succeeded all over the place.
5:37 p.m.
> The thing that has always bugged me about .NET is
that MS billed it as
> cross-platform, then turned right around and made crucial libraries
> Windows-only.
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Dave McGuire wrote:
It's cross-platform, programs run under Windows
on ANY PC! ;)
When NT 4.x came out, MS marketing droids made a big deal out if being 99
44/100% portable C code, and how they were going to port it to EVERY
computer. (even the impossible ones)
Later, they changed their strategy more towards trying to achieve the same
result by trying to eliminate the existence of anything that Windoze
wouldn't run on.
6:13 p.m.
On 26 Sep 2011 at 17:37, Fred Cisin wrote:
When NT 4.x came out, MS marketing droids made a big
deal out if being
99 44/100% portable C code, and how they were going to port it to
EVERY computer. (even the impossible ones)
That was after BillG declared that Visual BASIC (or whatever it was
called at the time) was going to be the mainstay of all computer
programming.
But then, PL/I was supposed to solve all of the tower of Babel
problems.
Is there a web implementation of JOVIAL yet?
--Chuck
6:43 p.m.
Is there a web implementation of JOVIAL yet?
JOVIAL ON RAILS!
--
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-- Never eat more than you can lift. -- Miss Piggy ----------------------------
7:33 p.m.
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 26 Sep 2011 at 17:37, Fred Cisin wrote:
I still remember a professor singing the praises of COOL.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
When NT 4.x came out, MS marketing droids made a
big deal out if being
99 44/100% portable C code, and how they were going to port it to
EVERY computer. (even the impossible ones)
That was after BillG declared that Visual BASIC (or whatever it was
called at the time) was going to be the mainstay of all computer
programming.
But then, PL/I was supposed to solve all of the tower of Babel
problems.
Is there a web implementation of JOVIAL yet?
27 Sep
27 Sep
5:51 a.m.
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 26 Sep 2011 at 17:37, Fred Cisin wrote:
I'm holding out for INTERCAL.Net.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
When NT 4.x came out, MS marketing droids made a
big deal out if being
99 44/100% portable C code, and how they were going to port it to
EVERY computer. (even the impossible ones)
That was after BillG declared that Visual BASIC (or whatever it was
called at the time) was going to be the mainstay of all computer
programming.
But then, PL/I was supposed to solve all of the tower of Babel
problems.
Is there a web implementation of JOVIAL yet?
26 Sep
26 Sep
7:15 p.m.
On Sep 26, 2011 5:38 PM, "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
When NT 4.x came out, MS marketing droids made a big deal out if being 99
44/100% portable C code, and how they were going to port it to EVERY
computer. (even the impossible ones)
Later, they changed their strategy more towards trying to achieve the same
result by trying to eliminate the existence of anything that Windoze
wouldn't run on.
There were Alpha, MIPS, and PowerPC versions. What other CPU architectures
were out there at the time in any volume that would justify the effort to
support?
7:34 p.m.
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Glen Slick wrote:
On Sep 26, 2011 5:38 PM, "Fred Cisin"
<cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
Sparc? Vax was still going sort of strong.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
When NT 4.x came out, MS marketing droids made a big deal out if being 99
44/100% portable C code, and how they were going to port it to EVERY
computer. (even the impossible ones)
Later, they changed their strategy more towards trying to achieve the same
result by trying to eliminate the existence of anything that Windoze
wouldn't run on.
There were Alpha, MIPS, and PowerPC versions. What other CPU architectures
were out there at the time in any volume that would justify the effort to
support?
8:09 p.m.
On Sep 26, 2011 7:40 PM, "David Griffith" <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>
wrote:
Sparc? Vax was still going sort of strong.
http://ftp.lanet.lv/ftp/sun-info/sunflash/1993/Jul/55.11-Sun-Intergraph:-SP…
8:35 p.m.
On 9/26/11 8:09 PM, "Glen Slick" <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
On Sep 26, 2011 7:40 PM, "David Griffith"
<dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote:
I know there was a partially functional version of NT 3.51 IIRC (might have
been 4.0) that ran on SPARC chips, but I don't think it ever left Microsoft
labs/Advanced Tech group in any complete form.
Sparc? Vax was still going sort of strong.
http://ftp.lanet.lv/ftp/sun-info/sunflash/1993/Jul/55.11-Sun-Intergraph:-SP…
-and-Windows-NT 
8:41 p.m.
Which is why I consider my VAX 6000-600 the Last True VAX. :-)
________________________________________
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
William Donzelli [wdonzelli at gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 8:13 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip
Sparc? Vax was still going sort of strong.
VAX was clearly on the way out when NT 4.0 was released. The whole
point of the 7000 series VAX machines was to ween people off the
architecture and onto Alpha - and that was a couple of years before NT
4.0.
--
Will
11:40 p.m.
On 09/26/2011 11:13 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
It seems to me the point for the 7000 series was to sell very fast,
very high-end VAXen. The fact that the buses and chassis were (mostly)
compatible with the big Alpha systems was just good engineering practice.
Note that the very same thing was done with the PDP-11 family, yet
the whole point of the last of that line (the J-11 family) certainly
wasn't to sell more VAXen.
DEC tried pretty hard to sell my employer some VAX 7000 systems. At
the time, Alphas were barely mentioned, and they had been shipping for
over a year.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Sparc? Vax
was still going sort of strong.
VAX was clearly on the way out when NT 4.0 was released. The whole
point of the 7000 series VAX machines was to ween people off the
architecture and onto Alpha - and that was a couple of years before NT
4.0. 
7:44 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Glen Slick" <glen.slick at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip
On Sep 26, 2011 5:38 PM, "Fred Cisin"
<cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
As far as I know Microsoft skipped Mac PPC support which would dwarf all the
other systems sold in numbers. MS tried supporting those other chips in
servers, don't think they supported workstations (did they release MS Office
for any of those chips?).
After NT for those other chips flopped they killed support in later Win2000
alpha releases so Win2K release didn't support anything but x86.
If NT had caught on for the Alpha (or any other chip) AND that platform was
still around in quantities worth selling to, MS would still support them
just like MS still makes office for Mac. MS is out to make money and will
support anything that makes them major money.
When NT 4.x came out, MS marketing droids made a big deal out if being 99
44/100% portable C code, and how they were going to port it to EVERY
computer. (even the impossible ones)
Later, they changed their strategy more towards trying to achieve the
same
result by trying to eliminate the existence of anything that Windoze
wouldn't run on.
There were Alpha, MIPS, and PowerPC versions. What other CPU architectures
were out there at the time in any volume that would justify the effort to
support?
8:40 p.m.
As far as I know Microsoft skipped Mac PPC support
which would dwarf all the
other systems sold in numbers.
Which, btw, was just silly. Microsoft had PReP and persistent rumours said
they had CHRP support internally. Jumping to the Mac would not have been
hard for them, but I can also see the thinking that Apple was (in those days)
not long for the world and not worth the extra cost.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- TRUE HEADLINE: Morning-After Pill Decision Delayed -------------------------
8:54 p.m.
On 9/26/11 8:40 PM, "Cameron Kaiser" <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
One of the devs in the AT group when I was there had a powermac running NT,
he was a very sick man...
As far as I
know Microsoft skipped Mac PPC support which would dwarf all the
other systems sold in numbers.
Which, btw, was just silly. Microsoft had PReP and persistent rumours said
they had CHRP support internally. Jumping to the Mac would not have been
hard for them, but I can also see the thinking that Apple was (in those days)
not long for the world and not worth the extra cost.
27 Sep
27 Sep
8:21 a.m.
On 27 September 2011 03:44, TeoZ <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" <glen.slick at
gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip
NT 4.0 supported PowerPC, but the only Macs it would run on were based
on PReP, the PowerPC Reference Platform.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_Reference_Platform
There were some Mac clones built to this, but they were due to appear
right about the time that Steve Jobs returned to Apple and killed off
the MacOS licensing programme. The best of the PReP clones were the
Motorola ones; as soon as Motorola learned of Jobs' return, they
killed the development programme.
This infuriated many - there were finished review machines
circulating. MacUser ruffled a lot of people's feathers by making the
Motorola Mac clone the magazine's Mac of the Year for, IIRC, 1996 or
1997.
On Sep 26, 2011 5:38 PM, "Fred Cisin"
<cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
As far as I know Microsoft skipped Mac PPC support which would dwarf all the
other systems sold in numbers.
When NT 4.x came out, MS marketing droids made a big deal out if being 99
44/100% portable C code, and how they were going to port it to EVERY
computer. ?(even the impossible ones)
Later, they changed their strategy more towards trying to achieve the
same
result by trying to eliminate the existence of anything that Windoze
wouldn't run on.
There were Alpha, MIPS, and PowerPC versions. What other CPU architectures
were out there at the time in any volume that would justify the effort to
support? MS tried supporting those other chips in
servers, don't think they supported workstations
There were PowerPC Windows NT Workstations, yes. I used an IBM demo model.
Not sure they ever reached actual volume sales.
(did they release MS Office
for any of those chips?).
No, but RISC NT included a Win16 emulator, so you could run Office 4 on them.
DEC included FX!32 with Alpha NT, a Win32 emulation layer, so DEC NT
3.x boxes could run Office 4 NT Edition. (Which I am still looking for
a copy of today.)
After NT for those other chips flopped they killed
support in later Win2000
alpha releases so Win2K release didn't support anything but x86.
It was earlier than that. I believe SP1 for NT4 was never released for
anything except X86.
There was also a SPARC NT but it was never released.
If NT had caught on for the Alpha (or any other chip)
AND that platform was
still around in quantities worth selling to, MS would still support them
just like MS still makes office for Mac. MS is out to make money and will
support anything that makes them major money.
Yep.
But the platform bombed.
I suspect the same may happen with Win8 for ARM: no Win32 support, x86
apps won't run, so it will bomb. I'd be happy to be wrong, in a way.
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
8:49 a.m.
On 2011-09-27 09:21, Liam Proven wrote:
There were some Mac clones built to this, but they
were due to appear
right about the time that Steve Jobs returned to Apple and killed off
the MacOS licensing programme. The best of the PReP clones were the
Motorola ones; as soon as Motorola learned of Jobs' return, they
killed the development programme.
They were very nice machines. Still should have some of those somewhere ...
This infuriated many - there were finished review
machines
circulating. MacUser ruffled a lot of people's feathers by making the
Motorola Mac clone the magazine's Mac of the Year for, IIRC, 1996 or
1997.
The "bad" part of the PReP aliance actually was, that motorola got a
pretty good piece of the apple cake, and also a big piece of the rs6000
cake. (very similar machines back then)
> MS tried supporting those other chips in
> servers, don't think they supported workstations
There were PowerPC Windows NT Workstations, yes. I
used an IBM demo model.
Not sure they ever reached actual volume sales.
Isn't the xbox running some WinNt ?
DEC included FX!32 with Alpha NT, a Win32 emulation
layer, so DEC NT
3.x boxes could run Office 4 NT Edition. (Which I am still looking for
a copy of today.)
I thought it was part of the standard distribution. Just had a weird
name (the zip/cab/exe file) so it is not easy to find.
Cheers
5:59 p.m.
On 27 September 2011 16:49, emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com> wrote:
Office/32? No - it was on different media. There were 32-bit versions
of Word 6 and Excel 5. I did have them on floppy but lost them at some
point.
It would please me to be able to run Word 6 today, the version with
long-filename support. :?)
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
Isn't the xbox running some WinNt ?
The black xBox runs a sort of drastically-cut-down Windows 2000 with
almost everything except DirectX removed, but on a 733MHZ P3 IIRC.
I know next to nothing about the OS in the xBox 360, which is the
PowerPC one. This article suggest it's an even-further-cut-down
version of the black xBox OS:
http://www.windowsfordevices.com/c/a/News/The-scoop-on-the-Xbox-360s-embedd…
DEC included
FX!32 with Alpha NT, a Win32 emulation layer, so DEC NT
3.x boxes could run Office 4 NT Edition. (Which I am still looking for
a copy of today.)
I thought it was part of the standard distribution. Just had a weird name
(the zip/cab/exe file) so it is not easy to find.
11:08 a.m.
On 9/27/11 10:21 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
On 27 September 2011 03:44, TeoZ<teoz at
neo.rr.com> wrote:
I suppose it depends on your definition of "volume sales" but IBM did
sell that system, as the PowerSeries 850. I've heard of PowerSeries
830, but never actually seen one.
It was the same hardware as the original RS/6000 43P, the 7248.
PReP, not CHRP, and painfully slow under either OS. The main thing I
remember about running NT on them is that it's possible to flash ARC
firmware onto an RS/6000 and run NT, but not possible to flash it back
or "convert" a PowerSeries without physically replacing the PROM.
Doc Shipley
MS tried supporting those other chips in
servers, don't think they supported workstations
There were PowerPC Windows NT Workstations, yes. I used an IBM demo model.
Not sure they ever reached actual volume sales.
5:54 p.m.
On 27 September 2011 19:08, Doc Shipley <doc at vaxen.net> wrote:
On 9/27/11 10:21 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
Fascinating! I never knew that that machine existed. Thanks!
--
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
On 27 September 2011 03:44, TeoZ<teoz at neo.rr.com> ?wrote:
?I suppose it depends on your definition of "volume sales" but IBM did sell
that system, as the PowerSeries 850. ?I've heard of PowerSeries 830, but
never actually seen one.
?It was the same hardware as the original RS/6000 43P, the 7248. PReP, not
CHRP, and painfully slow under either OS. ?The main thing I remember about
running NT on them is that it's possible to flash ARC firmware onto an
RS/6000 and run NT, but not possible to flash it back or "convert" a
PowerSeries without physically replacing the PROM.
?MS tried supporting those other chips in
servers, don't think they supported workstations
There were PowerPC Windows NT Workstations, yes. I used an IBM demo model.
Not sure they ever reached actual volume sales.
26 Sep
26 Sep
11:15 p.m.
On 26 Sep 2011 at 19:15, Glen Slick wrote:
There were Alpha, MIPS, and PowerPC versions. What
other CPU
architectures were out there at the time in any volume that would
justify the effort to support?
Did MS ever come out with a version of NT for the i860 CPU? I
remember BillG happily saying that they were the chips of the
future...
--Chuck
27 Sep
27 Sep
3:30 a.m.
On Sep 26, 2011 11:18 PM, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
Did MS ever come out with a version of NT for the i860 CPU? I
remember BillG happily saying that they were the chips of the
future...
If it's on the Internet it must be true:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT
"To ensure portability, initial development was targeted at the Intel i860XR
RISC processor, switching to the MIPS R3000 in late 1989, and then the Intel
i386 in 1990. "
4:42 a.m.
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Fred Cisin wrote:
This is getting way off-topic, but somewhere I have a WinNT 4 CD with
PowerPC, MIPS and Alpha versions on it.
--
> The thing
that has always bugged me about .NET is that MS billed it as
> cross-platform, then turned right around and made crucial libraries
> Windows-only.
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Dave McGuire wrote:
It's cross-platform, programs run under
Windows on ANY PC! ;)
When NT 4.x came out, MS marketing droids made a big deal out if being 99
44/100% portable C code, and how they were going to port it to EVERY
computer. (even the impossible ones)
9:40 a.m.
On 27 Sep 2011 at 7:42, Steven Hirsch wrote:
This is getting way off-topic, but somewhere I have a
WinNT 4 CD with
PowerPC, MIPS and Alpha versions on it.
If you were an MSDN member at the time, you have the CD--and also in
many languages and even the NEC PC98 variation. MS I think, operated
MSDN at a loss for a time--given the number of CDs, it certainly
seemed that way.
--Chuck
11:34 a.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven Hirsch
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 4:42 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only
Subject: Re: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip
[snip]
This is getting way off-topic, but somewhere I have a WinNT 4 CD with
PowerPC, MIPS and Alpha versions on it.
Hey look, a new subject line! :-)
I remember working with NT4 on all of those when I was first at Microsoft, back in the
mid-late '90s. Developers loooooved the Alpha machines: their local builds ran way
faster than on those Pentium pigs. Having a DEC UWS was a bigger perk than having a
window office. -- Ian
11:43 a.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
At 11:34 AM -0700 9/27/11, Ian King wrote:
I remember working with NT4 on all of those when I was
first at
Microsoft, back in the mid-late '90s. Developers loooooved the
Alpha machines: their local builds ran way faster than on those
Pentium pigs. Having a DEC UWS was a bigger perk than having a
window office. -- Ian
In the mid-late 90's when the DEC PWS 433a's were still worth a lot,
a local PC reseller bought one on accident, and didn't know what to
do with it. I was able to get it and 256MB of RAM for far less than
I could get additional RAM for my Alphastation 500/333 that I bought
from Compaq (don't even want to think about what
that cost). I
switched it from ARC to SRM and put in a VMS compatible SCSI card.
I
used that system for about a decade before getting a XP1000.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
1:01 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
-----Original Message-----
From: iank at vulcan.com
Sent: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 11:34:19 -0700
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org, cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair
tip)
I saw that multi-platform NT being demo'd at a show in San Jose when
I lived there in the 90's. They had windows NT running on various
workstations-- that was the last time I actually had hope that maybe processor diversity
on the desktop wasn't dead after all.
Last week, some guy was selling a shrink wrapped, licensed copy of
that very OS. He wanted $50. I just shook my head.
jeff
____________________________________________________________
FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop!
Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven Hirsch
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 4:42 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only
Subject: Re: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip
[snip]
This is getting way off-topic, but somewhere I have a WinNT 4 CD with
PowerPC, MIPS and Alpha versions on it.
Hey look, a new subject line! :-)
I remember working with NT4 on all of those when I was first at
Microsoft, back in the mid-late '90s. Developers loooooved the Alpha
machines: their local builds ran way faster than on those Pentium pigs.
Having a DEC UWS was a bigger perk than having a window office. -- Ian 
1:31 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Ian King <IanK at vulcan.com> wrote:
I remember working with NT4 on all of those when I was first at Microsoft,
back in the mid-late '90s. Developers loooooved the Alpha machines: their
local builds ran way faster than on those Pentium pigs. Having a DEC UWS
was a bigger perk than having a window office. -- Ian
A guy I went to college with went out to work at DEC in Boston testing high
end Alpha workstations and video cards. He sent screenshots of Quake 2
running on NT Alpha with ridiculously high end video cards and, at the time,
insane resolutions (SXGA I believe) They'd run the Q2 benchmark for days on
end to stress-test the cards. IIRC he claimed Q2 was an ideal burn-in tool,
as few professional apps used nearly every OpenGL feature simultaneously,
most were optimized to use a few specific calls at once.
We were all jealous, putzing along with our pathetic Windows 98 machines
running RAGE graphics...
1:49 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
On 9/27/11 3:31 PM, Jason McBrien wrote:
A guy I went to college with went out to work at DEC
in Boston testing high
end Alpha workstations and video cards. He sent screenshots of Quake 2
running on NT Alpha with ridiculously high end video cards and, at the time,
insane resolutions (SXGA I believe) They'd run the Q2 benchmark for days on
end to stress-test the cards. IIRC he claimed Q2 was an ideal burn-in tool,
as few professional apps used nearly every OpenGL feature simultaneously,
most were optimized to use a few specific calls at once.
IBM ported Quake to AIX for exactly the same reasons....
Doc
2:33 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
A guy I went
to college with went out to work at DEC in Boston testing high
end Alpha workstations and video cards. He sent screenshots of Quake 2
running on NT Alpha with ridiculously high end video cards and, at the time,
insane resolutions (SXGA I believe) They'd run the Q2 benchmark for days on
end to stress-test the cards. IIRC he claimed Q2 was an ideal burn-in tool,
as few professional apps used nearly every OpenGL feature simultaneously,
most were optimized to use a few specific calls at once.
IBM ported Quake to AIX for exactly the same reasons.... 
2:25 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
On Tue, 27 Sep 2011 11:34:19 -0700, Ian King <IanK at vulcan.com> wrote:
Ah yes, I remember seeing NT running on an Alpha box for the first time
out in San Jose (can't remember the exact show). My first impression
was "cool, an Alpha box", my next impression was "how depressing to see
the Windows interface running on an Alpha box".
That said, I have a PREP machine floating around somewhere that I was
running NT on for a while. Cool thing was being able to run an Intel NT
simulator and running Intel NT apps faster than my fastest Intel box at
the time :)
-----Original
Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven Hirsch
Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2011 4:42 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only
Subject: Re: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip
[snip]
This is getting way off-topic, but somewhere I have a WinNT 4 CD
with
PowerPC, MIPS and Alpha versions on it.
Hey look, a new subject line! :-)
I remember working with NT4 on all of those when I was first at
Microsoft, back in the mid-late '90s. Developers loooooved the Alpha
machines: their local builds ran way faster than on those Pentium
pigs. Having a DEC UWS was a bigger perk than having a window
office.
-- Ian 
3 Oct
3 Oct
3:06 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
In article <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed at mail.mxes.net>,
"g_kurico.com" <g at kurico.com> writes:
Ah yes, I remember seeing NT running on an Alpha box
for the first time
out in San Jose (can't remember the exact show). My first impression
was "cool, an Alpha box", my next impression was "how depressing to see
the Windows interface running on an Alpha box".
Yes because Motif was *such* an innovator there, so sad to see it
replaced by the thing it immitated.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
3:47 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
The coolest thing I ever saw what Novell Netware running on an AS/400 at
PC Expo in NYC back in the 90's... then seeing Multiprocessor Netware
running and seeing 2 snakes moving around the screen :-)
Richard wrote:
In article <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed at
mail.mxes.net>,
"g_kurico.com" <g at kurico.com> writes:
Ah yes, I remember seeing NT running on an Alpha
box for the first time
out in San Jose (can't remember the exact show). My first impression
was "cool, an Alpha box", my next impression was "how depressing to see
the Windows interface running on an Alpha box".
Yes because Motif was *such* an innovator there, so sad to see it
replaced by the thing it immitated.
3:56 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum
<curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote:
The coolest thing I ever saw what Novell Netware
running on an AS/400 at PC
Expo in NYC back in the 90's
... then seeing Multiprocessor Netware running
and seeing 2 snakes moving around the screen :-)
Richard wrote:
In article <0564a929a6b17c21b1e273cbffb0c8ed at mail.mxes.net>,
? ?"g_kurico.com" <g at kurico.com> writes:
?Ah yes, I remember seeing NT running on an Alpha box for the first time
?out in San Jose (can't remember the exact show). ?My first impression ?was
"cool, an Alpha box", my next impression was "how depressing to see ?the
Windows interface running on an Alpha box".
Yes because Motif was *such* an innovator there, so sad to see it
replaced by the thing it immitated.
4:01 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum
<curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote:
The coolest thing I ever saw what Novell Netware
running on an AS/400
at PC Expo in NYC back in the 90's
I expect this was using the IPCS (Integrated PC Server), a plug-in
card which contained various x86 CPUs running Netware/Windows NT/OS/2
etc. OS/400 did have routing support for IPX and some other Netware
services, but did not host Netware directly.
Is anyone operating a working Netware LAN? or still have the software?
excuse the previous reply, a mis-click on my part.
4:41 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Nigel Williams wrote:
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum
<curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote:
I know of a place in Bakersfield that still uses Netware.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
The coolest thing I ever saw what Novell Netware
running on an AS/400
at PC Expo in NYC back in the 90's
I expect this was using the IPCS (Integrated PC Server), a plug-in
card which contained various x86 CPUs running Netware/Windows NT/OS/2
etc. OS/400 did have routing support for IPX and some other Netware
services, but did not host Netware directly.
Is anyone operating a working Netware LAN? or still have the software?
5:11 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
I remember you'd see on the nightly news and the TV's in the background
and how many of them would have Netware snakes running around on them :-)
David Griffith wrote:
On Tue, 4 Oct 2011, Nigel Williams wrote:
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Curt @ Atari
Museum
<curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote:
I know of a place in Bakersfield that still uses Netware.
The coolest thing I ever saw what Novell Netware
running on an AS/400
at PC Expo in NYC back in the 90's
I expect this was using the IPCS (Integrated PC Server), a plug-in
card which contained various x86 CPUs running Netware/Windows NT/OS/2
etc. OS/400 did have routing support for IPX and some other Netware
services, but did not host Netware directly.
Is anyone operating a working Netware LAN? or still have the software?
4:42 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
On 10/03/2011 07:01 PM, Nigel Williams wrote:
Is anyone operating a working Netware LAN? or still
have the software?
I have some early releases of Netware, 2.x etc, that were given to me
by a listmember for nostalgic purposes. I installed a few dozen Netware
2.15 LANs in NJ in the late 1980s.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
6:49 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
Used to do a lot of Netware installs all over NJ and in NYC a lot
too... Did a great install at M&M Mars where we connected in their
existing Dec Vaxes to some new Novell 3.12 servers we installed... man
that was a lot of fun!!! Did an install once where I hooked up a
Novell Netconnect server with 4 sessions up to a Wang Mini so that they
could connect to it over their IPX/SPX network to PC's running a remote
client and they were able to replace the Wang workstations... There
was this cool hardware/software add-on we did for a printing firm, you
had 2 3.12 servers side by side with this SFT solution called an
"Octopus" and basically it kept on identical server in standby, always
mirroring the active server and if it lost its ping check to the active
server, it would go active, take over the IPX address and name and the
users would never know anything, it kept going flawless, it was pretty
neat, worked a lot better then Novells own SFT solution.
I had a bunch of IPX to Localtalk bridge cards at one time, I wish I'd
kept them :-(
Dave McGuire wrote:
On 10/03/2011 07:01 PM, Nigel Williams wrote:
Is anyone operating a working Netware LAN? or
still have the software?
I have some early releases of Netware, 2.x etc, that were given to
me by a listmember for nostalgic purposes. I installed a few dozen
Netware 2.15 LANs in NJ in the late 1980s.
-Dave
9:03 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
On 10/03/2011 09:49 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
Used to do a lot of Netware installs all over NJ and
in NYC a lot too...
Did a great install at M&M Mars where we connected in their existing Dec
Vaxes to some new Novell 3.12 servers we installed... man that was a lot
of fun!!!
Did you have some sort of IPX-based communication going on with the
VAXen?
Did an install once where I hooked up a Novell
Netconnect
server with 4 sessions up to a Wang Mini so that they could connect to
it over their IPX/SPX network to PC's running a remote client and they
were able to replace the Wang workstations... There was this cool
hardware/software add-on we did for a printing firm, you had 2 3.12
servers side by side with this SFT solution called an "Octopus" and
basically it kept on identical server in standby, always mirroring the
active server and if it lost its ping check to the active server, it
would go active, take over the IPX address and name and the users would
never know anything, it kept going flawless, it was pretty neat, worked
a lot better then Novells own SFT solution.
Neat!
I had a bunch of IPX to Localtalk bridge cards at one
time, I wish I'd
kept them :-(
Oh, they'd make for some fun on a rainy Sunday afternoon. :)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
9:54 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
I still have the network layouts... we did a Novell to Vax NFS
install.... I remember it well now, it was a Novell NFS gateway
install and we installed Vax NFS onto two of their Vaxes, one was local
at the Mt. Olive location and the other was done in Chicago...
Later on at other customer sites we did a lot of installs with Leverage
Host which made a Vax look like a Novell 3.12 server, that was a great
piece of software, you would set it up on the Vax, then you'd install
Netware to it from a IPX connected PC and once the Netware was installed
you'd have a Vax that PC workstations would'nt know any different from a
Novell server, you could even rconsole onto it to configure NLM's and such.
Man I miss doing Netware work!!!
Dave McGuire wrote:
On 10/03/2011 09:49 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
Used to do a lot of Netware installs all over NJ
and in NYC a lot too...
Did a great install at M&M Mars where we connected in their existing Dec
Vaxes to some new Novell 3.12 servers we installed... man that was a lot
of fun!!!
Did you have some sort of IPX-based communication going on with the
VAXen?
Did an install once where I hooked up a Novell
Netconnect
server with 4 sessions up to a Wang Mini so that they could connect to
it over their IPX/SPX network to PC's running a remote client and they
were able to replace the Wang workstations... There was this cool
hardware/software add-on we did for a printing firm, you had 2 3.12
servers side by side with this SFT solution called an "Octopus" and
basically it kept on identical server in standby, always mirroring the
active server and if it lost its ping check to the active server, it
would go active, take over the IPX address and name and the users would
never know anything, it kept going flawless, it was pretty neat, worked
a lot better then Novells own SFT solution.
Neat!
I had a bunch of IPX to Localtalk bridge cards at
one time, I wish I'd
kept them :-(
Oh, they'd make for some fun on a rainy Sunday afternoon. :)
-Dave
5:10 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
I have just about every rev of Netware, as well as most of the
Netconnect, LAT for Netware and other installs... I used to be a
Systems Engineer and CNE and loved working with Netware. Occassionally
I will setup a Netware server in my office just to mess around a bit....
man I remember those NW 2.15 installs... used to take like 2 hrs to
prep a 10mb HD! :-)
Nigel Williams wrote:
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum
<curt at atarimuseum.com> wrote:
The coolest thing I ever saw what Novell Netware
running on an AS/400
at PC Expo in NYC back in the 90's
I expect this was using the IPCS (Integrated PC Server), a plug-in
card which contained various x86 CPUs running Netware/Windows NT/OS/2
etc. OS/400 did have routing support for IPX and some other Netware
services, but did not host Netware directly.
Is anyone operating a working Netware LAN? or still have the software?
excuse the previous reply, a mis-click on my part.
6:23 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
On 10/03/2011 08:10 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
I have just about every rev of Netware, as well as
most of the
Netconnect, LAT for Netware and other installs... I used to be a Systems
Engineer and CNE and loved working with Netware. Occassionally I will
setup a Netware server in my office just to mess around a bit.... man I
remember those NW 2.15 installs... used to take like 2 hrs to prep a
10mb HD! :-)
Yes, but then you can run nsnipes.exe!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
7:56 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
Whoa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I completely forgot about that!!! :-)
Dave McGuire wrote:
On 10/03/2011 08:10 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
I have just about every rev of Netware, as well
as most of the
Netconnect, LAT for Netware and other installs... I used to be a Systems
Engineer and CNE and loved working with Netware. Occassionally I will
setup a Netware server in my office just to mess around a bit.... man I
remember those NW 2.15 installs... used to take like 2 hrs to prep a
10mb HD! :-)
Yes, but then you can run nsnipes.exe!
-Dave
3:48 p.m.
New subject: WinNT on multiple platforms (was RE: IBM Model M keyboard repair tip)
On 10/03/2011 06:06 PM, Richard wrote:
It was intended from day one to give the same look and feel as
Presentation Manager. It's not like they "stole" it.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Ah yes, I
remember seeing NT running on an Alpha box for the first time
out in San Jose (can't remember the exact show). My first impression
was "cool, an Alpha box", my next impression was "how depressing to see
the Windows interface running on an Alpha box".
Yes because Motif was *such* an innovator there, so sad to see it
replaced by the thing it immitated.
26 Sep
26 Sep
5:41 p.m.
On 26/09/11 7:46 PM, David Griffith wrote:
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Dave McGuire wrote:
How gullible are people? I mean what did you think it was FOR?
"Cross-platform" is absolute anathema to MS. Their desires are
totalitarian, period. They want to tax every computer sold. Oh, look!
Almost there!
--Toby
On 09/26/2011 12:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Heh. It's obviously an attempt at creating lots and lots of vendor
lock-in, and an attempt to be a better Java than Java. The former has
succeeded all over the place.
The thing that has always bugged me about .NET is that MS billed it as
cross-platform, then turned right around and made crucial libraries
Windows-only.
Well the
problem is that both their new Lightswitch& upcoming Visual
Studio 2011 products both fully support the .Net environment. To me,
the
only thing that would make .Net better is if the stupid compiler
actually
generated native code instead of that runtime crap.
Will people be offended if I call that MS-P-code?
It's obviously for trying to create multi-platform aps.
27 Sep
27 Sep
5:50 a.m.
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Toby Thain wrote:
On 26/09/11 7:46 PM, David Griffith wrote:
You keep frothing at the mouth like that, someone's gonna think you've got
rabies and shoot you. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Dave McGuire wrote:
How gullible are people? I mean what did you think it was FOR?
"Cross-platform" is absolute anathema to MS. Their desires are totalitarian,
period. They want to tax every computer sold. Oh, look! Almost there!
On 09/26/2011 12:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
The thing that has always bugged me about .NET is that MS billed it as
cross-platform, then turned right around and made crucial libraries
Windows-only.
> Well the problem is that both their new
Lightswitch& upcoming Visual
> Studio 2011 products both fully support the .Net environment. To me,
> the
> only thing that would make .Net better is if the stupid compiler
> actually
> generated native code instead of that runtime crap.
Will people be offended if I call that MS-P-code?
It's obviously for trying to create multi-platform aps.
Heh. It's obviously an attempt at creating lots and lots of vendor
lock-in, and an attempt to be a better Java than Java. The former has
succeeded all over the place.
26 Sep
26 Sep
10:24 a.m.
On 9/26/2011 9:59 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Gene Buckle wrote:
.NET IL is "just in time" compiled
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation), unless you
generate a native image (using ngen.exe). It is not intepreted in the
classic sense (nor has it ever been).
Josh
Well the problem is that both their new
Lightswitch& upcoming Visual
Studio 2011 products both fully support the .Net environment. To me, the
only thing that would make .Net better is if the stupid compiler actually
generated native code instead of that runtime crap.
Will people be offended if I
call that MS-P-code?
It's obviously for trying to create multi-platform aps.
Is MICROS~1 expecting a proliferation of new hardware to have to dominate?
Howzbout: a COMPILER from that to native code, instead of a runtime
interpreter?
It's still going to be INEFFICIENT. But, you can always throw hardware at
it.
10:39 a.m.
On 9/26/2011 9:59 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Gene Buckle wrote:
.NET IL is "just in time" compiled
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation), unless you
generate a native image (using ngen.exe). It is not intepreted in the
classic sense (nor has it ever been).
Josh
Well the problem is that both their new
Lightswitch& upcoming Visual
Studio 2011 products both fully support the .Net environment. To me, the
only thing that would make .Net better is if the stupid compiler actually
generated native code instead of that runtime crap.
Will people be offended if I
call that MS-P-code?
It's obviously for trying to create multi-platform aps.
Is MICROS~1 expecting a proliferation of new hardware to have to dominate?
Howzbout: a COMPILER from that to native code, instead of a runtime
interpreter?
It's still going to be INEFFICIENT. But, you can always throw hardware at
it.
5:38 p.m.
On Mon, 26 Sep 2011, Josh Dersch wrote:
.NET IL is "just in time" compiled
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-in-time_compilation), unless you
generate a native image (using ngen.exe). It is not intepreted in the
classic sense (nor has it ever been).
Thanks
24 Sep
24 Sep
10:43 a.m.
I have no clue about the signalling level stuff, but there were also
PS/2 mice; same physical socket, different signalling. Mice wouldn't
work on keyboard ports and keyboards wouldn't work on mouse ports,
until the very end of the lifetime of the standard.
Hang on a second. Logically, a 'PS/2 keybaord' is one that works on a
PS/2 computer. A PS/2 mouse is simularly one that works on a PS/2
computer. There is no reason to assume that the interfaces must be similar.
My PEEQ has a keyboard, which I could logically name a 'PERQ 2 keyboard'.
And it has a pointing device, which I could logically name a 'PERQ 2
mouse' (although it's really more of a small digitisng tablet about the
size of a ouse mat with a puck that's shaped like a mouse). They both
plug into DIN sockets on the monitor. Are you claiming that the 'PERQ 2
keyboard' interfac and the 'PERQ 2 mouse' interface must be simuilar.
Because I can assuue you they are nothing of the sort.
In the case of the PS/2 keyboard and PS/2 mouse, the interfaces _were_
similar.Each hidirectional clock line and a bidirectional data line. the
very low level protocol - -how to send bytes between the keyboard/mouse
and the computer is much the same. The differnce is in what bytes you can
send and what they mean.
There were never AT-interface mice - so *something* in there is different.
Only because no PC/AT keybaord interface microcontroller exepcted to talk
to a mouse. There is nothing to stop them existing.
-tony
7:11 p.m.
On 24 September 2011 18:43, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Firstly, no, it was not just for PS/2s; fairly soon after the PS/2,
other machines took it, and a few years later, /all/ PCs used the same
connector.
Secondly, yes, the interfaces were close enough to the same that some
BIOSes would actually display an error message saying "mouse inserted
into keyboard port" or /vice versa/. Helpful but not as helpful as
just bloody working with it, whatever socket it was in, would have
been.
No, instead, for a decade and a half or so, keyboard sockets were
coloured green and so were the plugs, and mice in matching purple. (Or
possibly the other way round. I don't use such modern keyboards. :?) )
But finally, in the last few years, you get sockets coloured half
green and half purple, and either a mouse or a keyboard will work in
it - or if the PC has two, either will work in either port.
So they are close enough to be interchangeable - finally. No, that
doesn't mean the signalling is the same, but it means they are
electronically close enough to be swapped over, and that a smart
enough BIOS could detect which type of device was attached.
I never said there was. Just nobody did it. It was part of the PS/2
spec from the beginning and became an industry standard.
--
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Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
I have no clue about the signalling level stuff, but there were also
PS/2 mice; same physical socket, different signalling. Mice wouldn't
work on keyboard ports and keyboards wouldn't work on mouse ports,
until the very end of the lifetime of the standard.
Hang on a second. Logically, a 'PS/2 keybaord' is one that works on a
PS/2 computer. A PS/2 mouse is simularly one that works on a PS/2
computer. There is no reason to assume that the interfaces must be similar. There were
never AT-interface mice - so *something* in there is different.
Only because no PC/AT keybaord interface microcontroller exepcted to talk
to a mouse. There is nothing to stop them existing.
25 Sep
25 Sep
10:56 a.m.
Hang on a
second. Logically, a 'PS/2 keybaord' is one that works on a
PS/2 computer. A PS/2 mouse is simularly one that works on a PS/2
computer. There is no reason to assume that the interfaces must be simi=
lar.
Firstly, no, it was not just for PS/2s; fairly soon after the PS/2, other machines took it, and a few years later, /all/
PCs used the same
connector.
Secondly, yes, the interfaces were close enough to the same that some
BIOSes would actually display an error message saying "mouse inserted
into keyboard port" or /vice versa/. Helpful but not as helpful as
just bloody working with it, whatever socket it was in, would have
been.
Actually, that doesn't imply the signals are simular, only that the
machine can detect what's plugged in to a given socekt.
At one time there were mice that could work on both the PS/2 standard and
on an RS32 serial port. Typically the mosue cable ended in a 6 pin
mini-DIN conenctor, there was an adapter packed with it that had a DE9
socket on one sida and a 6 pin mini-DIN on the other. And in most (if not
all) cases, thei swas a simple adapter linking pins on the 2 conencotrs,
it didn't contain any circuitry.
But the Rs232 interfce is not remotely close to the PS/2 mouse interface.
It even uses different voltages., The mouse was designed to work out what
it was pluggedf into (possibly by detecting said voltages) and outputted
data accordinging.
Now, as it happens, the PS/2 keyboard and PS/2 mouse protocols are almost
identical. The IBM PS/2 TechRef is not nearly as good as the ones for
older systems, but it does have some useful information. And it shows
that hte bit-level protocol is the same. The IBM keyboard/mouse interface
chip in the PS/2 could talk to both devices, there were commands to
enaable nad disable them, etc. And it identified which device had sent
the data when you read the incoming data from it.
AFAIK, there's nothign to stop said chip being programmed to accept a
mouse on the keybaord port and vice versa. It was just never done that
way in the PS/2/.
I do agree that if a machine cna detect it's got the wrong device
conencted, it would have bene better to simply accept that and make use
of it rather than giving an error message.
No, instead, for a decade and a half or so, keyboard
sockets were
coloured green and so were the plugs, and mice in matching purple. (Or
possibly the other way round. I don't use such modern keyboards. :=AC) )
The original IBM ones were all that IBM beige colour.... The colour
coding came later
AFAIK it is the other way round. When I was fixing an Olivetti Sparkjet
printer, I needed a dual infrared sensor, and the easiest way to get one
quickly was to buy a cheap optomechancial mouse and strip it. The mouse I
bought was aPS/2 one (that was the chaepest one I could find in Maplin),
the cable.plug is still in my junk box and the plug is green.
But finally, in the last few years, you get sockets coloured half
green and half purple, and either a mouse or a keyboard will work in
it - or if the PC has two, either will work in either port.
So they are close enough to be interchangeable - finally. No, that
As I said abouve, that's a non-sequitur. All you can conclude is that the
machine can work out what it's conencted to and handle it accordinhly. It
doesn't imply antthing about the interfces being the same. In fact they
are very similar, though.
-tony
5:19 p.m.
On 25 September 2011 18:56, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Sure, other machines used that connector later. But surely it was called
the 'PS2 keyboard conenctior' becuase the first machine to use it was the
IBM PS/2. Had it been first used on an HP Vectra, say, I guess we'd call
them 'Vectra keyboards'.
Sure, yes, absolutely. I don't see why or how that contradicts me at all.
That is my point. They /are/ similar protocols, so that (eventually)
they were made interchangeable.
Serial-stroke-PS/2 mice never were. You couldn't use a Logitech
serial-to-PS/2 convertor on a Microsoft hybrid-port dual-protocol
mouse, for instance - I tried.
(Later, this worked too - some /de facto/ standard was worked out, I guess.)
Hang on a second. Logically, a 'PS/2 keybaord'
is one that works on a
PS/2 computer. A PS/2 mouse is simularly one that works on a PS/2
computer. There is no reason to assume that the interfaces must be simi=
lar.
Firstly, no, it was not just for PS/2s; fairly soon after the PS/2, other machines
took it, and a few years later, /all/ PCs used the same
connector.
Secondly, yes, the interfaces were close enough to the same that some
BIOSes would actually display an error message saying "mouse inserted
into keyboard port" or /vice versa/. Helpful but not as helpful as
just bloody working with it, whatever socket it was in, would have
been.
Actually, that doesn't imply the signals are simular, only that the
machine can detect what's plugged in to a given socekt.
At one time there were mice that could work on both the PS/2 standard and
on an RS32 serial port. Typically the mosue cable ended in a 6 pin
mini-DIN conenctor, there was an adapter packed with it that had a DE9
socket on one sida and a 6 pin mini-DIN on the other. And in most (if not
all) cases, thei swas a simple adapter linking pins on the 2 conencotrs,
it didn't contain any circuitry.
But the Rs232 interfce is not remotely close to the PS/2 mouse interface.
It even uses different voltages., The mouse was designed to work out what
it was pluggedf into (possibly by detecting said voltages) and outputted
data accordinging.
Now, as it happens, the PS/2 keyboard and PS/2 mouse protocols are almost
identical. The IBM PS/2 TechRef is not nearly as good as the ones for
older systems, but it does have some useful information. And it shows
that hte bit-level protocol is the same. The IBM keyboard/mouse interface
chip in the PS/2 could talk to both devices, there were commands to
enaable nad disable them, etc. And it identified which device had sent
the data when you read the incoming data from it. AFAIK it is the other way round. When I was fixing an
Olivetti Sparkjet
printer, I needed a dual infrared sensor, and the easiest way to get one
quickly was to buy a cheap optomechancial mouse and strip it. The mouse I
bought was aPS/2 one (that was the chaepest one I could find in Maplin),
the cable.plug is still in my junk box and the plug is green.
You are quite right.
As I said abouve, that's a non-sequitur. All you
can conclude is that the
machine can work out what it's conencted to and handle it accordinhly. It
doesn't imply antthing about the interfces being the same. In fact they
are very similar, though.
That's the point.
I'm not saying that the PS/2 keyboard interface (hardware *plus*
protocol) was /the same as/ the PS/2 mouse interface, but eventually,
they /were/ made interchangeable. But the two slightly different
interfaces - K/B S/W+H/W combination and the mouse S/W+H/W combination
- were collectively known as "PS/2 interface devices" *long* after the
PS/2 range was essentially forgotten.
--
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26 Sep
26 Sep
11:46 a.m.
Secondly, yes, the interfaces were close enough to the
same that some
BIOSes would actually display an error message saying "mouse inserted
into keyboard port" or /vice versa/. Helpful but not as helpful as
just bloody working with it, whatever socket it was in, would have
been.
Actually, that doesn't imply the signals are simular, only that the
machine can detect what's plugged in to a given socekt.
At one time there were mice that could work on both the PS/2 standard a= on an RS32 serial port. Typically the mosue cable
ended in a 6 pin
mini-DIN conenctor, there was an adapter packed with it that had a DE9
socket on one sida and a 6 pin mini-DIN on the other. And in most (if n=
ot
all) cases, thei swas a simple adapter linking
pins on the 2 conencotrs=
,
it didn't contain any circuitry.
But the Rs232 interfce is not remotely close to the PS/2 mouse interfac=
e.
It even uses different voltages., The mouse was
designed to work out wh=
at
it was pluggedf into (possibly by detecting said
voltages) and outputte=
d
data accordinging.
Now, as it happens, the PS/2 keyboard and PS/2 mouse protocols are almo=
st
identical. The IBM PS/2 TechRef is not nearly as
good as the ones for
older systems, but it does have some useful information. And it shows
that hte bit-level protocol is the same. The IBM keyboard/mouse interfa=
ce
chip in the PS/2 could talk to both devices,
there were commands to
enaable nad disable them, etc. And it identified which device had sent
the data when you read the incoming data from it.
That is my point. They /are/ similar protocols, so that (eventually)
they were made interchangeable. Serial-stroke-PS/2 mice never were. You couldn't
use a Logitech
serial-to-PS/2 convertor on a Microsoft hybrid-port dual-protocol
mouse, for instance - I tried.
THat's not my point. My point is tha the Async serial (RS232) and PS/2
interfaces are totally different. But there exist mice such that if you
conenct some of the wires int the cable to a PS/2 port it works. If you
connect some of the wires to an RS232 port, it works too (it's not cerain
it's the same wires for both interfaes becasue the only 4 pins of the
mini-DIN socket on a PS/2 machine are wired up, there are 2 not used.
It's possible that these pins are wired up on the mouse, and that the
RS232 conenctor adapter makes use of them).
So while the protocols and even the voltage levels are totally different,
the same mouse can work on either without the user havign to fiddle with
anything. It automaticallt detects what it's plugged into and behaves
appropriately.
Incidentally, PS/2 mice are serial too (What I am saying here is that while
an RS232 poet is an example of a serial interface, it's not the only
one)
-tony
5:18 p.m.
On 21 Sep 2011 at 17:01, Fred Cisin wrote:
I've got a soft spot for the old Displaywriter keyboards; kind of
bulky, but the closest keyboard to a typewriter that I've ever used.
Wish I had one now.
--Chuck
I've never
tried an INM keyboard. :-)
It's got a great clicky feel, but the bottom row has a strange layout!
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