24 Jun
2013
24 Jun
'13
11:19 a.m.
Since I support the CBM crowd, I've had more than a few people send me
comments over the past few years, asking when I might consider offering
a replacement power supply for the home computing machines (VIC-20, 64,
128, +4)
Initially, I resisted for liability reasons and certification costs.
But, I decided earlier this year to put off those questions for a bit
and just see what might be technically and economically possible.
I've chased a few ultimately fruitless options, and I thought I'd see if
some fellow soul on this list might have some ideas.
Obviously, the first thought was a complete custom supply. My interest
was never in power design, so I am ill-equipped (and uncertain of my
abilities) to design such an item myself. Thus, I started looking for a
manufacturer that could design one.
Absolute requirements:
5VDC at 4.3A.
9VAC at 9VA unregulated
To this I added my requirements:
The 5VDC be a switching PSU output
ISO C13 input power jack (so I can support many areas without building
custom power cords
115/230 switchable design (or two very similar designs that can handle
the 2 voltages)
My cost under USD$30.00 per unit.
Enclosed finished case, or be able to fit in a commonly available case
design.
Someone put me in touch with Stontronics overseas, which worked on an
initial quote. But, I think the C13 and 115/230 requirements scared
them off.
I solicited information from Bear Power Supplies in the US, but they did
not seem too keen on continuing the discussion, so I have nothing from them.
I've also tried overseas suppliers, but I have not yielded fruit yet.
I've asked all the PSU suppliers on globalsources.com and alibaba.com
I have struggled to find a custom PSU manufacturer that can handle a
suitable design.
Being frustrated with the direct approach, I thought I'd try a different
path, and find a 9VAC or 5VDC single output power supply. I found a
single output large amperage 5VDC supply, but then I got stumped on
finding a way to synthesize a 9VAC isolated output from the 5VDC. A
simplistic approach would involve creating a harsh +-9V square wave, but
it needs to be at least .5A (to run the cassette deck on the 64/128),
and I worry that the noise on a square wave @ 1A would wreck the audio
and video noise level in the machine, which is not the best to start
with. Even ignoring that, I need to double or quadruple the voltage to
get the 18V rail to rail voltages I need.
On the 9VAC front, I had little luck finding a suitable 9VAC supply that
is 45VA or 63VA to support a 5VDC at 5A draw while leaving enough for the
5A 5VDC output. As well, I am not sure I am equipped to design a
switching 5V PSU from a 9VAC source.
With the old power bricks getting more brittle and prone to failure each
day, I feel some sense of urgency to find some solution for folks.
For liability reasons and because 5VDC is the more important voltage in
the units, I myself lean towards a small box that turns 5VDC into 5VDC
and 9VAC, but designing a voltage doubler/sine wave generator/isolation
transformer solution is far beyond my comfort zone. If this is not a
complicated task, I am wondering if someone on-list is up for a small
freelancing effort to design such a unit. It needs to contend with the
issues outlined in this PDF (http://www.ide64.org/power_des.pdf) in that
the noted design won't work as is since I think people need to be free
to use the power switch on their machine.
There might not be a reasonable solution, but I thought I'd share in
case I am missing an option.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
24 Jun
24 Jun
11:49 a.m.
Absolute requirements:
5VDC at 4.3A.
9VAC at 9VA unregulated
[...trouble making 9VAC from 5VDC...]
Why not take a 5V 5A supply and adjoin to it a simple transformer from
mains to 9VAC? (There probably is a reason, but I sure don't see it in
what you wrote.)
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2:41 p.m.
On 6/24/2013 1:49 PM, Mouse wrote:
By creating the design in this way, I'm shouldering 100% of
the
liability on the design. While a company I contract might do
essentially the same thing, I feel more comfortable from a liability
standpoint.
I am primarily asking for ideas on creating a solution I can contract
for assembly. I know many times on this group, we're building one-offs
or limited runs for hobbyists who could put it all together themselves.
This is different, as it's for the masses (small though they may be).
So, it's marginally commercial, to which I apologize, but in some
respects, it preservation, as when the cheap 64 brick goes, it takes all
the custom ICs with it.
Jim
Absolute
requirements:
5VDC at 4.3A.
9VAC at 9VA unregulated
[...trouble making 9VAC from 5VDC...]
Why not take a 5V 5A supply and adjoin to it
a simple transformer from
mains to 9VAC? (There probably is a reason, but I sure don't see it in
what you wrote.) 
25 Jun
25 Jun
11:39 a.m.
By creating the design in this way, I'm
shouldering 100% of the
liability on the design. While a company I contract might do
essentially the same thing, I feel more comfortable from a liability
standpoint.
Morally (maybe not legally) I feel happier doing a solid design with
adequate protective devies (fuses, thermal fuses, proper earthing, etc)
than getiing somebody else to meet my spec and to miss out what I regard
as imporntat because it wasn't in the spec.
Ypu've p[erboably not seen some of the horrors in mains-poweerd devices.
OH, they meet the legal requirements alrgith, but I wouldn't plug them in.
I am primarily asking for ideas on creating a solution I can contract
for assembly. I know many times on this group, we're building one-offs
or limited runs for hobbyists who could put it all together themselves.
This is different, as it's for the masses (small though they may be).
Perhaps it's about time thsse 'masses' learnt to solder :-)
-tony
5:46 p.m.
On 6/25/2013 1:39 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
I am technically minded enough that
I feel confident in validating a
design for robustness and safe operation. Potentially unfortunately, in
this day and age, "legally" is the most important aspect of this line of
discussion.
By creating
the design in this way, I'm shouldering 100% of the
liability on the design. While a company I contract might do
essentially the same thing, I feel more comfortable from a liability
standpoint.
Morally (maybe not legally) I feel happier doing a solid design with
adequate protective devies (fuses, thermal fuses, proper earthing, etc)
than getiing somebody else to meet my spec and to miss out what I regard
as imporntat because it wasn't in the spec. Perhaps it's about time thsse 'masses'
learnt to solder :-) -tony
Let's relate one of my customers: Jim. He lives in
mid-state IA, USA,
and he knows how to solder.
But, his hands tremble significantly, to the point that soldering is
fast becoming impossible. He's OK soldering up LV stuff, as the risk is
small, and the reward is great.
He would not appreciate being asked to solder up his own PSU.
He also is hesitant about asking a friend or outsider to solder one up
for him. He doesn't want to impose, and he doesn't want to embarrass
himself. He makes fun of his trembling, but I know that it bothers him
incredibly.
He prefers, from a quality of life aspect, and to avoid the
embarrassment, to simply pay for a complete item.
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
6:02 p.m.
On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 07:46:05PM -0500, Jim Brain wrote:
I am technically minded enough that I feel confident in
validating a
design for robustness and safe operation. Potentially unfortunately,
in this day and age, "legally" is the most important aspect of this
line of discussion.
IANAL but I'm guessing that having a designer with credentials might help
with certification (or it might not -- the # I heard for UL was ~US$8K so I
abandoned that idea and have no experience), but I doubt it has anything to
do with protecting yourself against liability. If people want to zap
themselves and sue you, they always can, at least in the US (whether they
have a case doesn't matter until you get to court, as I understand it). I
think you'd want to talk to an insurance company for that (unless you're
assuming the pro designers would have their own insurance, but if they did
they'd pass the cost on to you anyway). Just guessing here...
John Wilson
D Bit
7:11 p.m.
On 6/25/2013 8:02 PM, John Wilson wrote:
On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 07:46:05PM -0500, Jim Brain
wrote:
BEar SUpply quoted $25K for UL.
I am technically minded enough that I feel
confident in validating a
design for robustness and safe operation. Potentially unfortunately,
in this day and age, "legally" is the most important aspect of this
line of discussion.
IANAL but I'm guessing that having a designer with
credentials might help
with certification (or it might not -- the # I heard for UL was ~US$8K so I
abandoned that idea and have no experience), but I doubt it has anything to
do with protecting yourself against liability.
While using a reputable design firm
won't absolve me of liability, it's
one more point in my favor in a court setting. I tried ot be careful in
my responses that I not imply that outsourcing it does not absolve me of
liability, but I do feel more comfortable about my risk exposure using a
firm that does this for a living.
If people want to zap
themselves and sue you, they always can, at least in the US (whether they
have a case doesn't matter until you get to court, as I understand it).
True,
anyone can sue anyone for pretty much anything.
I
think you'd want to talk to an insurance company for that (unless you're
assuming the pro designers would have their own insurance, but if they did
they'd pass the cost on to you anyway). Just guessing here...
Yes, IEEE
professional liability insurance. Check.
Jim
8:16 p.m.
On 6/25/2013 7:11 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
[lots of snippage]
Yes, IEEE professional liability insurance. Check.
Jim
I've been trying to follow this thread...
Have you considered a COTS 5V power supply that powers an 60 Hz audio
amplifier that drives a 60 Hz power transformer? I'll bet you could run
a standard, inexpensive, 115 VAC step down transformer backwards to step
up the output of the audio amplifier to 9 VAC and provide isolation. I
don't think generating a 60.000000000 Hz signal with a few percent THD
would be all that difficult, either.
The power supply /would/ be two boxes but all the custom 9VAC crud would
be simple/safe low voltage. I don't see how there would be any liability
issues.
... just a thought.
Rob.
7:12 p.m.
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013, John Wilson wrote:
On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 07:46:05PM -0500, Jim Brain
wrote:
This is another reason why it might be better to offer these as kits. It
eliminates some of the liability risk and the need to have them eval'd by
the various regulatory bodies, both in the US and elsewhere. A third party
could always offer to assemble kits for others for a nominal amount.
I am technically minded enough that I feel
confident in validating a
design for robustness and safe operation. Potentially unfortunately,
in this day and age, "legally" is the most important aspect of this
line of discussion.
IANAL but I'm guessing that having a designer with credentials might
help with certification (or it might not -- the # I heard for UL was
~US$8K so I abandoned that idea and have no experience), but I doubt it
has anything to do with protecting yourself against liability. If
people want to zap themselves and sue you, they always can, at least in
the US (whether they have a case doesn't matter until you get to court,
as I understand it). I think you'd want to talk to an insurance company
for that (unless you're assuming the pro designers would have their own
insurance, but if they did they'd pass the cost on to you anyway).
Just guessing here...
26 Jun
26 Jun
12:53 p.m.
On 6/25/2013 1:39 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
I am technically minded enough
that I feel confident in validating a
design for robustness and safe operation. Potentially unfortunately, in
this day and age, "legally" is the most important aspect of this line of
discussion.
Alas yes... IANAL but I wonder what the position si if oyu offer a
scheamtic, chassis layout and PCB? Or even a complete kit. Provided the
diesing as shown is safe (tat is, you have included fuses, safety
grounds, yuo can;'t touch live parts when in use, etc). I would hope that
any problems due ot an idiot mis-construction it were nto your fault.
Alas these days that's unlikely to be the case :-(
By
creating the design in this way, I'm shouldering 100% of the
liability on the design. While a company I contract might do
essentially the same thing, I feel more comfortable from a liability
standpoint.
Morally (maybe not legally) I feel happier doing a solid design with
adequate protective devies (fuses, thermal fuses, proper earthing, etc)
than getiing somebody else to meet my spec and to miss out what I regard
as imporntat because it wasn't in the spec. Perhaps
it's about time thsse 'masses' learnt to solder :-) -tony
Let's
relate one of my customers: Jim. He lives in mid-state IA, USA,
and he knows how to solder.
But, his hands tremble significantly, to the point that soldering is
fast becoming impossible. He's OK soldering up LV stuff, as the risk is
small, and the reward is great.
4:12 p.m.
Alas yes... IANAL but I wonder what the position si if
oyu offer a
scheamtic, chassis layout and PCB? [...] I would hope that any
problems due ot an idiot mis-construction it were nto your fault.
Alas these days that's unlikely to be the case :-(
It probably depends heavily on the jursidction (mostly country) in
question.
While I don't actually know where Jim Brain is, the timezone in the
Date: header said -0500; combined with lack of mention of location and
the fluency of the English, this makes me suspect USA. And, in that
case, you are probably right. :-(
Plenty of people assembled Heathkits.
Aye. I greatly enjoyed doing mine. :-) (By that point I was already
entirely competent to solder...and it was long enough ago it didn't
mean dealing with crappy RoHS `solder'.)
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27 Jun
27 Jun
10:49 a.m.
Aye. I greatly enjoyed doing mine. :-) (By that
point I was already
entirely competent to solder...and it was long enough ago it didn't
mean dealing with crappy RoHS `solder'.)
I know what you mean. That is one reason I would alwys buy a kit now
raher than an asembled device (and why I would prefer things to be
avaialbel as kits). I can solder it with lead/tin solder and it's likely
to keep on working.
Jsut this afternoon I was wiring a UK telephone socket. This particualr
one had the socket, a few components and some screw temrmianl blocks
soldered to a PCB. I had some very odd problems which turned out to be
due to the fact that te torge of tightening down the screw-terminals has
ccacked the very brittle lead-free soldered connections between the
terminal blocks and the PCB. I took the thing apart, desoldered it all,
resolederd it with lead/tin and had no mmore problems.
-tony
26 Jun
26 Jun
5:02 p.m.
On 6/26/2013 2:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Alas yes... IANAL but I wonder what the position si if
oyu offer a
scheamtic, chassis layout and PCB? Or even a complete kit. Provided the
diesing as shown is safe (tat is, you have included fuses, safety
grounds, yuo can;'t touch live parts when in use, etc). I would hope that
any problems due ot an idiot mis-construction it were nto your fault.
As noted,
while they can sue, if the "safe" notes you post above are
upheld, justice would be incline to assess fault to the kit builder.
That said, there are often technicalities.
* Was the "warning" language something an 8th grade reader could
digest? If not, the court may find that the warnings were insufficient
* Did the hazard icon match a generally accepted standard?
* What was the typesize of the warning? Did it meet ADA
requirements? If not, then it's possible the builder has vision
issues and thus was not aware.
I could go on (I worked in the IT portion of insurance for some time, so
I can think like this), but I won't. Suffice it to say that unless the
case is entirely obvious (person soldered AC mains plug wires to project
that never asked for any mains wire and did not include one in the kit),
it will likely end up in court to sift through the various components
Which is the scary part. Knowing the probability that you will end up
in court (or part way there anyway) is a lot to shoulder. Liability
insurance can help, but it won't prevent the suit that might come your way.
It is for these reasons that I would not offer a PSU kit. My apologies,
but I don't think I'd ever be comfortable in that situation.
Pragmatically, kits do not bring me joy in general. I spend more time
helping folks debug them, and I charged less to sell them in the first
place. Ready made units require less support. I know that's heresy to
the folks on this list, but it is the truth. For every soldering guru
on here with an armful of databooks and a scope, there's hundreds of
people in this classic machine community who treat a electronics kit
like a "snap-tite" plastic model.
I apologize for getting a bit off topic, though I hope it's somewhat
informative.
Jim
5:19 p.m.
On 6/26/2013 6:02 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
It is for these reasons that I would not offer a PSU
kit. My apologies,
but I don't think I'd ever be comfortable in that situation.
The only power supply stuff I have seen has been Transformer Choke
Cap stuff. Switching stuff I leave to the Chinese clones.
Pragmatically, kits do not bring me joy in general. I
spend more time
helping folks debug them, and I charged less to sell them in the first
place. Ready made units require less support. I know that's heresy to
the folks on this list, but it is the truth. For every soldering guru
on here with an armful of databooks and a scope, there's hundreds of
people in this classic machine community who treat a electronics kit
like a "snap-tite" plastic model.
But then that is what all they sell 'plastic model' kits today.
Learn *Bla Bla Bla" with this flashing led kit.
FPGA's kits are turning out the same way looking at the DE0 & DE1
I have here. You want to do more -- Pay big $$$ for hardware description
to access USB and SD cards and we *Don't support 5V I/O logic any more *.
Still looking for a SD card FPGA interface -- low level needed.
(DE1 card)
I apologize for getting a bit off topic, though I hope
it's somewhat
informative.
Jim
Ben.
PS. Why all this wanting of old hardware in FPGA's nowadays? At one time
you could get C-64's free with other assorted junk in a box for $ 2.00
6:13 p.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
On Jun 26, 2013, at 5:19 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
PS. Why all this wanting of old hardware in FPGA's nowadays? At one time you could
get C-64's free with other assorted junk in a box for $ 2.00
Because every day, the stuff we love is getting harder to find. Sure, C64s and Apple
IIe's are still very very common, but they're getting less common all too quickly.
In 10 to 15 years, expect to pay real money for a working one. They're already going
for $40 to $75 now, depending on condition, and they often need repairs -- especially
replacement of filter capacitors!
But for anything less common than that, prices are up up up. Way up. My personal favorite
toys (DEC gear) are just not common any more at all. If you want a PDP-11, you can still
find them on eBay but they're $250 for the most common variety, up to $3000 for the
rare Unibus models. If you want a PDP-8/e, expect $2000 and up, depending on condition. If
you want a PDP-10... I'm just kidding, you can't have a PDP-10! :)
Those sorts of things are _perfect_ for FPGA. For right now, though, it's better to
have a real Amiga or a real C64 or a real Apple II, instead of an FPGA.
-Seth
6:45 p.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
On 6/26/2013 7:13 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:
On Jun 26, 2013, at 5:19 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
But for anything less common than that, prices are up
up up. Way up.
My personal favorite toys (DEC gear) are just not common any more at
all. If you want a PDP-11, you can still find them on eBay but
they're $250 for the most common variety, up to $3000 for the rare
Unibus models. If you want a PDP-8/e, expect $2000 and up, depending
on condition. If you want a PDP-10... I'm just kidding, you can't
have a PDP-10! :)
Ok I admit they are not spotted often on ebay.
What happend to all the mainframes?
Those sorts of things are _perfect_ for FPGA. For
right now, though,
it's better to have a real Amiga or a real C64 or a real Apple II,
instead of an FPGA.
Ben.
To bad they did not make the PDP-11 as 18 bits rather than 16.
-Seth
PS. Do they still have the PDP 10 timesharing around?
6:53 p.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
On Jun 26, 2013, at 6:45 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
Ben.
To bad they did not make the PDP-11 as 18 bits rather than 16.
Unibus is 18-bits of addressing. ;-)
PS. Do
they still have the PDP 10 timesharing around?
Yep. TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 (not to mention ITS and TENEX). I'm
hoping someday to run TOPS-10 on my 2065.
TTFN - Guy
7:16 p.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
On 6/26/2013 7:53 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
PS. Do they still have the PDP 10 timesharing
around?
Yep. TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 (not to mention ITS and TENEX). I'm
hoping someday to run TOPS-10 on my 2065.
Good luck with the setup.
On Jun 26, 2013, at 6:45 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
Ben.
To bad they did not make the PDP-11 as 18 bits rather than 16.
Unibus is 18-bits of addressing. ;-)
I was thinking of a mini PDP 10 in terms of Instructions.
Byte and Half word (signed) instructions only.
*TIME SHARING* was the big thing and that was the market.
It never worked for me ... $1 long distance and $1.50 for the
time share @ 300 baud off a COCO II.
TTFN - Guy
Ben.
27 Jun
27 Jun
10:37 a.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
From: ben
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2013 7:17 PM
On 6/26/2013 7:53 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> On Jun 26, 2013, at 6:45 PM, ben <bfranchuk at
jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
>> To bad they did not make the PDP-11 as 18 bits
rather than 16.
> Unibus is 18-bits of addressing. ;-)
I was thinking of a mini PDP 10 in terms of
Instructions.
Byte and Half word (signed) instructions only.
Remember, the PDP-10 is a word-addressed machine, not a byte-addressed
one.
*Instructions* are 36 bits long (9 op code, 4 AC, 1 indirect, 4 index,
18 address/immediate). Bytes are defined by 36-bit pointers which
define the length of the byte, the position of the byte within the
word, and the address of the word containing the byte. Halfword
instructions refer to the left or right halfword of the word addressed.
How do you fit that into an 18-bit machine based on an 8-bit byte?
(Hint: Look at DEC's 18-bit family to see what a real 18-bit system does.)
Rich
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
28 Jun
28 Jun
8:59 a.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
In article <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01187AAB7D at 505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>,
Rich Alderson <RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org> writes:
How do you fit that into an 18-bit machine based on an
8-bit byte?
(Hint: Look at DEC's 18-bit family to see what a real 18-bit system does.)
See Chapter 6 "The PDP-1 and Other 18-Bit Computers" from
<http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/_Books/Bell-ComputerEngineering.pdf>
--
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9:40 a.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
On 6/28/2013 9:59 AM, Richard wrote:
See Chapter 6 "The PDP-1 and Other 18-Bit
Computers" from
<http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/_Books/Bell-ComputerEngineering.pdf>
Some where I said "I wish it (pdp11) was 18 bits" so that makes bytes 9
bits wide. Dig for "PDP-K". I got the PDF for the PDP-K bit I cannot
remember where I found it.
Ben.
29 Jun
29 Jun
6:01 a.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
http://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decpdp11melCostConsiderations_313165
http://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decpdp11mePDPK_458902
http://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decpdp11meionSetForThe18bitPDPK_1967711
On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 12:40 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
On 6/28/2013 9:59 AM, Richard wrote:
See Chapter 6 "The PDP-1 and Other 18-Bit Computers" from
<http://bitsavers.trailing-**edge.com/pdf/dec/_Books/Bell-**
ComputerEngineering.pdf<http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/_Book…
Some where I said "I wish it (pdp11) was 18 bits" so that makes bytes 9
bits wide. Dig for "PDP-K". I got the PDF for the PDP-K bit I cannot
remember where I found it.
Ben.
1 Jul
1 Jul
12:51 a.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
Why publish these crappy archive.org links?
<http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/memos/700331_PDP-K_Initial_Cost_Considerations.pdf>
<http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/memos/700313_Why_an_18-bit_PDP-K.pdf>
<http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/memos/700220_An_Instruction_Set_For_The_18-bit_PDP-K.pdf>
--
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<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
28 Jun
28 Jun
9:21 a.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
On 6/27/2013 11:37 AM, Rich Alderson wrote:
Remember, the PDP-10 is a word-addressed machine, not a byte-addressed
one.
I don't use a PDP-10 that often.
*Instructions* are 36 bits long (9 op code, 4 AC, 1
indirect, 4 index,
18 address/immediate). Bytes are defined by 36-bit pointers which
define the length of the byte, the position of the byte within the
word, and the address of the word containing the byte. Halfword
instructions refer to the left or right halfword of the word addressed.
Thank you for the reminder.
How do you fit that into an 18-bit machine based on an
8-bit byte?
(Hint: Look at DEC's 18-bit family to see what a real 18-bit system does.)
The point I was making was that 9 bit bytes are a better word size for
bytes. The PDP 11 went 8 bits and that we know in hindsight is just too
small.
Rich
Ben.
9:31 a.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
On Jun 28, 2013, at 9:21 AM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
The point I was making was that 9 bit bytes are a better word size for bytes. The PDP 11
went 8 bits and that we know in hindsight is just too small.
In the PDP-10 instruction set, you get to pick the size of the bytes. It's a word
addressed machine (36-bit words). If you want "bytes" you use the "byte
pointer" instructions. In those instructions you specify the size of a
"byte". It can be anywhere from 1 to 35 bits. So there's nothing
"special" about 9-bits (other than it divides into 36 evenly...but then so does
18, 6, 3, 2 and 1). But the byte pointer instructions don't care if a word can't
hold an integral number of "bytes". The left-over bits aren't used.
TTFN - Guy
10:04 a.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
On 06/28/2013 09:21 AM, ben wrote:
The point I was making was that 9 bit bytes are a
better word size for
bytes. The PDP 11 went 8 bits and that we know in hindsight is just too
small.
Remember that a common way of storing character data in a PDP-10 was 5
7-bit characters with a bit left over in each word. In point of fact,
when the PDP-10 was introduced, there were still a fair number of
systems using 6-bit bytes. But that was largely an artificial
distinction--most were not byte-addressable, but word-addressable.
I recall that an argument of the time was that having
byte-addressability was just silly--a fast machine with a large word
size and word address granularity could be just as fast as a machine
that used hardware to handle byte-addressability.
I don't think the question was ever settled completely.
--Chuck
10:29 a.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
On 6/28/2013 10:04 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 06/28/2013 09:21 AM, ben wrote:
Wasn't the original DEC Alpha missing 8-bit byte addressability and
added back later? Or something?
Rob.
The point I was making was that 9 bit bytes are a
better word size for
bytes. The PDP 11 went 8 bits and that we know in hindsight is just too
small.
Remember that a common way of storing character data in a PDP-10 was 5
7-bit characters with a bit left over in each word. In point of fact,
when the PDP-10 was introduced, there were still a fair number of
systems using 6-bit bytes. But that was largely an artificial
distinction--most were not byte-addressable, but word-addressable.
I recall that an argument of the time was that having
byte-addressability was just silly--a fast machine with a large word
size and word address granularity could be just as fast as a machine
that used hardware to handle byte-addressability.
I don't think the question was ever settled completely.
--Chuck
10:57 a.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 10:29 AM, Rob Doyle <radioengr at gmail.com> wrote:
Wasn't the original DEC Alpha missing 8-bit byte addressability and added
back later? Or something?
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/543
Classic Alpha processors ? all processors prior to EV56 ? and Alpha
system designs did not support byte and word addressing, which meant
access into I/O space involved ?swizzling?. Swizzling was a way of
allowing longword memory references to address the individual bytes
typically found in I/O space and with I/O controllers. A quantity of
host physical memory space was sparsely written, and effectively
compressed into a contiguous region of bytes by the I/O system.
26 Jun
26 Jun
6:59 p.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
On Jun 26, 2013, at 9:45 PM, ben wrote:
That... MAY have been a conscious business decision.
What happend to all the mainframes?
No one wanted them when they were just "old", so they were scrapped
for steel and copper. Same as all the other computers, except the
small sample that survived because people forgot they were sitting
in the attic (it's harder to forget there's a mainframe sitting
anywhere, and good luck getting it to the attic).
Those sorts of
things are _perfect_ for FPGA. For right now, though,
it's better to have a real Amiga or a real C64 or a real Apple II,
instead of an FPGA.
Ben.
To bad they did not make the PDP-11 as 18 bits rather than 16. PS. Do they still have the PDP 10 timesharing around?
Depending on your definition of "they", yes! Specifically, the
Living Computer Museum has both TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 running,
accessible from the internet. You can get an account today,
even! I'm really glad they're doing it. There may be others,
but they're hard to find.
- Dave
7:22 p.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
On 6/26/2013 7:59 PM, David Riley wrote:
Depending on your definition of "they", yes!
Specifically, the
Living Computer Museum has both TOPS-10 and TOPS-20 running,
accessible from the internet. You can get an account today,
even! I'm really glad they're doing it. There may be others,
but they're hard to find.
I found that site, but the cannot find a link for that yet.
- Dave
Ben.
28 Jun
28 Jun
10:08 a.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
On 6/26/2013 6:45 PM, ben wrote:
Ben.
To bad they did not make the PDP-11 as 18 bits rather than 16.
The 18-bit and 36-bit data paths are fine for the FPGA internals.
Xilinx multipliers, for example, are 18-bits wide and block memory is
18-bits wide but it gets to be a real pain when you need to interface
with off-board memory which is usually 16-bits or occasionally 32-bits.
Rob.
26 Jun
26 Jun
6:53 p.m.
New subject: FPGAs [Was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options]
On Jun 26, 2013, at 9:13 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:
On Jun 26, 2013, at 5:19 PM, ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
You nailed it. I like my NES, for example, but Nintendo's decision
to use that awful pop-up cartridge insertion method made the entire
line of systems unreliable after just a few years. If I start
playing a game, I literally can't TOUCH the system, or it'll likely
crash because of the tenuous connection the cartridge has to the
pins.
Of course, it added a whole bundle of interesting rituals to my
childhood (blow on the cartridge, blow in the system, insert the
cartridge, smack the top of the system, wave the dead chicken *just
right*, then turn it on). But I digress.
The other (related) issue is trying to connect old devices to the
peripherals you need to make them run. Most of my old SCSI and IDE
hard drives are dead, and the SCSI ones are especially getting hard
to replace. CRTs die, and new LCD monitors often look pretty awful
on a system meant for a low-res, fuzzy CRT (especially if it was
meant for an interlaced display). I have a solution in the works
for that, though.
So an FPGA emulation lets me at least get *close*. I can hook it
up to a new LCD, but have a video post-process that emulates the
phosphors and the cathodoluminescence so that it looks at least a
little more like it was supposed to. And I don't have to kill
any more chickens.
- Dave
PS. Why all this wanting of old hardware in FPGA's nowadays? At one time you could
get C-64's free with other assorted junk in a box for $ 2.00
Because every day, the stuff we love is getting harder to find. Sure, C64s and Apple
IIe's are still very very common, but they're getting less common all too quickly.
In 10 to 15 years, expect to pay real money for a working one. They're already going
for $40 to $75 now, depending on condition, and they often need repairs -- especially
replacement of filter capacitors!
27 Jun
27 Jun
11:01 a.m.
On 6/26/2013 6:02 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
I would agree that a direct-on-line SMPSU is probably not a good thing to
offer as a kit. One small mistake is assembly (e.g. a dry joint on the
'right' compoennt) and the result at switch-on wil leb spectacular.
Essentially a dead short across the maisn with components blown off the PCB.
On the other hand, a mains trandormer giving out 9V AC follwed by a
swichign regualtor to cut it down to 5V is, IMHO a suitable project or
kit. You are workign with safe, low, voltages and if you do make a mitake
while you mioght well burnt out the chopper transistor or control IC, you
will not end up with a major disater.
It is for these reasons that I would not offer a
PSU kit. My apologies,
but I don't think I'd ever be comfortable in that situation.
The only power supply stuff I have seen has been Transformer Choke
Cap stuff. Switching stuff I leave to the Chinese clones.
> Pragmatically, kits do not bring me joy in general. I spend more time
It can work both ways. In general the only people to buy kits have at
least am inor clue, so you don't get the really silly support quesitons.
Personalyl, though, I learnt the hard way not to supply jus the
programmed parts and a scheamtic. You get idiots who conenct power lines
backwards and expect free replacements of the ICs.
I think now all I would offer is a scheamtic (and PCB layout, chassis
layout, etc). Labelled 'Experminatal Deisng Only'.
helping folks
debug them, and I charged less to sell them in the first
place. Ready made units require less support. I know that's heresy to
the folks on this list, but it is the truth. For every soldering guru
on here with an armful of databooks and a scope, there's hundreds of
people in this classic machine community who treat a electronics kit
like a "snap-tite" plastic model.
But then that is what all they sell 'plastic model' kits today.
Learn *Bla Bla Bla" with this flashing led kit. 
28 Jun
28 Jun
7:20 a.m.
On 6/26/2013 8:19 PM, ben wrote:
PS. Why all this wanting of old hardware in FPGA's
nowadays?
I think Seth did a good job on answering this, but there's another point.
You can plop down an FPGA, or maybe more likely a CPLD, on a little DIP
carrier, and replace the functionality of those old chips.
So let's say your old computer has some custom silicon chips that have
died/fried/etc in there, but you either can't find a replacement, or
that replacement is simply too expensive.
You can now buy a relatively cheap replacement solution. Sure, the
replacement costs more in a one-off fashion than the original silicon
cost 25 years ago produced in bulk. Of course.
See here
http://www.fpgaarcade.com/parts.htm
for an example.
My point is that it need not be an ALL or nothing approach. You can have
a hybrid system that is mostly old, but has some new parts in it.
I will say that I am extremely excited for the shipping of the FPGA
Arcade Replay which can reimplement a number of old machines like Atari,
Amiga, and so on.
http://www.fpgaarcade.com/index.htm
This thing is finally a reality....although I don't have one yet.
New technology meets retro computing. This stuff really rocks my socks off.
Keith
27 Jun
27 Jun
5:19 p.m.
Jim,
I understand what you are trying to do here.? So far, the most practical suggestion is
Tony's advice to make the power supply the way it's supposed to be made: a
transformer with one secondary 9VAC and another secondary regulated to 5V.? However, there
are downsides for a kit, and you can't sell a fully built device without EMC
compliance testing, and CE marking--that's likely more a concern than liability.
Here are a couple of other options, not as pretty as a dedicated brick, but still safe and
clean:
- make an adapter that takes two standard 2.5mm barrel connectors (for 5V and 9VAC), and
connects the voltages to the right pins on a 7-pin DIN.? There are options for having this
made neatly, and then you could offer vetted 9VAC and 5VDC supplies, or let your customers
buy their own.
- Find a manufacturer of a decent 5VDC brick supply (such as meanwell), and see if they
will fit a commodore power connector on the output, and a barrel jack on the case, to
supply the 9VAC pins.
Good luck,
Dave
________________________________
From: Jim Brain <brain at jbrain.com>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2013 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options
On 6/26/2013 2:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Alas yes... IANAL but I wonder what the position
si if oyu offer a
scheamtic, chassis layout and PCB? Or even a complete kit. Provided the
diesing as shown is safe (tat is, you have included fuses, safety
grounds, yuo can;'t touch live parts when in use, etc). I would hope that
any problems due ot an idiot mis-construction it were nto your fault.
As noted,
while they can sue, if the "safe" notes you post above are
upheld, justice would be incline to assess fault to the kit builder.
That said, there are often technicalities.
? * Was the "warning" language something an 8th grade reader could
? ? digest?? If not, the court may find that the warnings were insufficient
? * Did the hazard icon match a generally accepted standard?
? * What was the typesize of the warning?? Did it meet ADA
? ? requirements?? If not, then it's possible the builder has vision
? ? issues and thus was not aware.
I could go on (I worked in the IT portion of insurance for some time, so
I can think like this), but I won't.? Suffice it to say that unless the
case is entirely obvious (person soldered AC mains plug wires to project
that never asked for any mains wire and did not include one in the kit),
it will likely end up in court to sift through the various components
Which is the scary part.? Knowing the probability that you will end up
in court (or part way there anyway) is a lot to shoulder. Liability
insurance can help, but it won't prevent the suit that might come your way.
It is for these reasons that I would not offer a PSU kit.? My apologies,
but I don't think I'd ever be comfortable in that situation.
Pragmatically, kits do not bring me joy in general.? I spend more time
helping folks debug them, and I charged less to sell them in the first
place.? Ready made units require less support.? I know that's heresy to
the folks on this list, but it is the truth.? For every soldering guru
on here with an armful of databooks and a scope, there's hundreds of
people in this classic machine community who treat a electronics kit
like a "snap-tite" plastic model.
I apologize for getting a bit off topic, though I hope it's somewhat
informative.
Jim
24 Jun
24 Jun
1:01 p.m.
New subject: C64 Power Supply Replacement Optionsu
Since I support the CBM crowd, I've had more than a few people send me
comments over the past few years, asking when I might consider offering
a replacement power supply for the home computing machines (VIC-20, 64,
128, +4)
Initially, I resisted for liability reasons and certification costs.
I know the problem.
My workaround is simply to publish the design, to be built at the
constructor's risk (do be sure the design _can_ be safe...). Certainly if
I wanted a supply for any old Commodore stuff, I would _want_ to make it
myself, that way I know it's been built correctly (you've not see the
horrors I've seen in modern amins-powered stuff...)
But, I decided earlier this year to put off those questions for a bit
and just see what might be technically and economically possible.
I've chased a few ultimately fruitless options, and I thought I'd see if
some fellow soul on this list might have some ideas.
Obviously, the first thought was a complete custom supply. My interest
was never in power design, so I am ill-equipped (and uncertain of my
abilities) to design such an item myself. Thus, I started looking for a
manufacturer that could design one.
Absolute requirements:
5VDC at 4.3A.
9VAC at 9VA unregulated
To this I added my requirements:
The 5VDC be a switching PSU output
Why? Efficieincy, or is there some other reason?
ISO C13 input power jack (so I can support many areas
without building
custom power cords
115/230 switchable design (or two very similar designs that can handle
the 2 voltages)
My cost under USD$30.00 per unit.
Actually, I tend ot do tthe design and if you don't like the price,
that's your hard luck. Building down ot a price is what has casuedd me a
lot of probles. Certainly if I was making such a supply it would const
considerablly more (some years ago I mand an unregualted 6V PSU for a
client. Byt the time I had finished, the components had come to over
\pounds 100.00. That did nto cover my time in making it either.
Transformer,s cases, etc are not cheap.
On the 9VAC front, I had little luck finding a
suitable 9VAC supply that
is 45VA or 63VA to support a 5VDC at 5A draw while leaving enough for the
5A 5VDC output. As well, I am not sure I am equipped to design a
switching 5V PSU from a 9VAC source.
What I would do is start with a 100VA transformewr with 2 separate 9V
secodnary windigns. That is a standard transfomer. Get one with a pair
of 115V primaries and use the standard selector swich circuit to connect
it for 115V or 230V mains.
One of the seondaries is used fro the 9V AC output as-is.
The other one is rectified, smoothed, and fed to a simple switching
regulator to bring it down to 5V.
Incidentally, this is basically the circuit of the C128 power brick (at
least the one I have).
With the old power bricks getting more brittle and prone to failure each
day, I feel some sense of urgency to find some solution for folks.
For liability reasons and because 5VDC is the more important voltage in
the units, I myself lean towards a small box that turns 5VDC into 5VDC
and 9VAC, but designing a voltage doubler/sine wave generator/isolation
I think you are going about it the wrong way. Given that that 9V AC can
be used for almost anyting, I think you want a reasoanbly sinusoildal
wave. And to produce that from 5V DC is not trivial. It can be done, but
heck, you've got AC mains around. Just use a transformer.
Anoyehr way, which I like less becuase it involves a mains-side SMPUS is
to have a 50VA 9V transofmrer (if there are 2 secondary windings, wire
them in parallel) to give the 9V AC output and a sepoarate off-the-shelf
5V PSU. THe mains input selector becomse more complciated
(series/parallel switchign for the transformer and a shorting switch for
2 pins on the SMPUS, which means a 3 pole swithc, which is not so easy to
find) but it avoids you having to make the regulator. On the other hand,
low-votlage input switchign regulators are a lot easier to design than
amins-input SMPSUs, so it sould be psosible to make one.
-tony
2:36 p.m.
New subject: C64 Power Supply Replacement Optionsu
On 6/24/2013 3:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Above all, the design has to be very safe. Even
if it's put on the net
as a "You build it at your own risk", it's still a liability. And, I
have to consider the many ways people will try to mess it up.
Appreciate the ideas. I like the idea on the dual secondary windings,
etc. I am just not comfortable designing it myself. I can do it for
myself, but I really want someone (or some company) who does it for a
living to design it, whatever it ends up becoming.
Jim
Why? Efficieincy, or is there some other reason?
Efficiency, primarily, and the implications (smaller size, runs cooler,
hopefully last longer, etc.)
Actually, I tend ot do tthe design and if you
don't like the price,
that's your hard luck. Building down ot a price is what has casuedd me a
lot of probles. Certainly if I was making such a supply it would const
considerablly more (some years ago I mand an unregualted 6V PSU for a
client. Byt the time I had finished, the components had come to over
\pounds 100.00. That did nto cover my time in making it either.
Transformer,s cases, etc are not cheap.
Well, some in the community would argue
that finding a way to make a
$200.00 PSU for a vintage PSU is not really a solution, as anyone can do
that, by buying premade PSUs and putting them in a large enclosure.
What I would do is start with a 100VA transformewr
with 2 separate 9V
secodnary windigns. That is a standard transfomer. Get one with a pair
of 115V primaries and use the standard selector swich circuit to connect
it for 115V or 230V mains.
I am sure a design firm would take that route, and I
would not turn away
a design like at this time.
One of the seondaries is used fro the 9V AC output as-is.
The other one is rectified, smoothed, and fed to a simple switching
regulator to bring it down to 5V.
Incidentally, this is basically the circuit of the C128 power brick (at
least the one I have).
Yes, it is.
I think you are going about it the wrong way. Given that that 9V AC can
be used for almost anyting, I think you want a reasoanbly sinusoildal
wave. And to produce that from 5V DC is not trivial. It can be done, but
heck, you've got AC mains around. Just use a transformer.
In practice, no one
uses the 9VAC on the 64 and VIC as AC. It's not on
all user ports, so systems don't plan on it being there, and the
cassette port uses it only after being shunted to 6.3V or so. The
square wave harmonics are what bothers me.
But, I thought as you did. Get the 9VAC at 45VA, and rectify the 5V out.
But, I am having a hard time finding a suitable base PSU to buy.
3:17 p.m.
New subject: C64 Power Supply Replacement Optionsu
On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Jim Brain <brain at jbrain.com> wrote:
In practice, no one uses the 9VAC on the 64 and VIC as
AC. It's not on all
user ports, so systems don't plan on it being there...
What about as a source of negative voltage for the RS232 cartridge?
I haven't seen a schematic of it lately, but IIRC, it uses a 1488 and 1489
and needs a bipolar supply and I don't _think_ it has an on-board negative
supply fed by a charge pump.
Obviously it's easy to make new one with a MAX232, but I do happen to
have an original interface, so that's why I thought of it.
-ethan
3:59 p.m.
New subject: C64 Power Supply Replacement Optionsu
On 6/24/2013 5:17 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 5:36 PM, Jim Brain <brain
at jbrain.com> wrote:
I should probably not sound so authoritative, since I
am sure something
used the lines.
But, since I was intrigued, I popped open a VIC1101A RS232 cart, and it
pulls the + phase of the 9VAC, rectifies it via single diode, cleans it
up with a cap, and uses that for + on a 75188/75189 pair (1488/1489
compatible, I presume).
The (-) leg is more interesting. It looks like it is created on the
cart via a RC circuit, a B562C PNP and a small transformer from the 5V
supply.
Weird setup, since I thought the VIC1101A was from the VIC-20 era, where
the -9V would be easily available on the user port.
There's a story behind that.
Jim
In practice, no one uses the 9VAC on the 64 and
VIC as AC. It's not on all
user ports, so systems don't plan on it being there...
What about as a source
of negative voltage for the RS232 cartridge?
I haven't seen a schematic of it lately, but IIRC, it uses a 1488 and 1489
and needs a bipolar supply and I don't _think_ it has an on-board negative
supply fed by a charge pump. 
7:09 p.m.
New subject: C64 Power Supply Replacement Optionsu
On Jun 24, 2013, at 5:59 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
I should probably not sound so authoritative, since I
am sure something used the lines.
But, since I was intrigued, I popped open a VIC1101A RS232 cart, and it pulls the + phase
of the 9VAC, rectifies it via single diode, cleans it up with a cap, and uses that for +
on a 75188/75189 pair (1488/1489 compatible, I presume).
The (-) leg is more interesting. It looks like it is created on the cart via a RC
circuit, a B562C PNP and a small transformer from the 5V supply.
Weird setup, since I thought the VIC1101A was from the VIC-20 era, where the -9V would be
easily available on the user port.
There's a story behind that.
I thought one other thing that the 9VAC was used for on the 8-bit Commodores was to supply
a clock signal for the TOD clock on one of the CIAs, but I might be mistaken.
25 Jun
25 Jun
11:34 a.m.
New subject: C64 Power Supply Replacement Optionsu
On 6/24/2013 3:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
While I would use a switching _regulator_ for that +%V line (as, indded,
Commodore did i nthe C128 PSU, I've had one apart...), I think a mains
transofmrer followed by a simple switching regualtor woudl eb efficient
enough.
As for 'last longer' Let me ask just how many mains transofmers you've
had to replace in clasisc ocmputers. And how mw many chopper transisotrs.
Give then the designs with mains transofmers are likely to be older, I
think that will answer the question...
[Cost]
Why? Efficieincy, or is there some other reason?
Efficiency, primarily, and the implications (smaller size, runs cooler,
hopefully last longer, etc.) Well, some in the community would argue that finding a
way to make a
$200.00 PSU for a vintage PSU is not really a solution, as anyone can do
that, by buying premade PSUs and putting them in a large enclosure.
The point is you should come up wi tha solid, relaible, designm, and use
that as a basis for the cost. Not cut evey corner you can.
But, I thought as you did. Get the 9VAC at 45VA, and rectify the 5V out.
But, I am having a hard time finding a suitable base PSU to buy.
It may not exist as a ready-made unit. But the trhasnformer is standard.
And I suspect maiking a 5V 5A swithcing regualtor to run from a 9V input
is posisble iwth any of the standard swithcing regualtor ICs.
as a "You build it at your own risk",
it's still a liability. And, I
have to consider the many ways people will try to mess it up.
I sometiems wonder how we all survived 40 eyars ago.... I was wiwing up
mains transfomers when I had a single-digit age.
-tony
5:56 p.m.
On 6/25/2013 1:34 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>
> The point is you should come up wi tha solid, relaible, designm, and use
> that as a basis for the cost. Not cut evey corner you can.
I don't think
setting a price point target has a direct line to "cut
corners". My point was, if the design cannot be sourced for a
reasonable maximum price, no one will buy it, and thus I should either
pursue another solution or report back to the community that it's not
cost effective to create such a solution.
I sometiems wonder how we all survived 40 eyars ago.... I was wiwing up
mains transfomers when I had a single-digit age.
I concur, but the world is a much
more litigious place now than then.
Jim
24 Jun
24 Jun
2:38 p.m.
On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 01:19:13PM -0500, Jim Brain wrote:
Obviously, the first thought was a complete custom
supply. My
interest was never in power design, so I am ill-equipped (and
uncertain of my abilities) to design such an item myself. Thus, I
started looking for a manufacturer that could design one.
Absolute requirements:
5VDC at 4.3A.
9VAC at 9VA unregulated
Sounds like a tough one, price-wise at least (I've done a couple of
go-rounds of 8" floppy power supply designs and the far cheaper of the two
is still surprisingly expensive to build, not to mention super-tedious
because of all the different values of tiny SMT parts). But in both cases
(off-mains and DC-DC) I had terrific luck with free manufacterer-supplied
software. Power Integrations has downloadable software for their nicely
integrated off-mains parts which worked nicely (although it took some
searching to find triple-insulated magnet wire and the right forms to wind
my own transformers). Prototype worked but cost me around $200 and the 400
VDC hot side just scares the hell out of me (especially if it was going to
be in kit form).
And of course NatSemi/TI has the WEBENCH DC-DC stuff that runs in a web
browser and gives you many alternative designs to choose between based on
various criteria. Everything I do with their parts Just Works.
Getting 9VAC out of an SMPS design sounds tricky though. I looked into the
same kind of thing a bit (wondering whether having an output for AC spindle
motors that takes care of 120/240 V and 50/60 Hz differences would be worth
the trouble, to make any drive work in any country) and decided it was over
my head and probably very expensive. Maybe you can cheat (and cover 90% of
users) if you know what the 9VAC is really used for though? I mean, do
peripherals ever really use it to drive another transformer, or rectify
negative voltages out of it? Maybe just having a switch that makes it put
out pulsed +9VDC (yech) for xfmrs, or straight pos or neg DC, could cover
the cases? Just yammering here...
John Wilson
D Bit
2:56 p.m.
On 6/24/2013 4:38 PM, John Wilson wrote:
Getting 9VAC out of an SMPS design sounds tricky
though. I looked into
the same kind of thing a bit (wondering whether having an output for
AC spindle motors that takes care of 120/240 V and 50/60 Hz
differences would be worth the trouble, to make any drive work in any
country) and decided it was over my head and probably very expensive.
Maybe you can cheat (and cover 90% of users) if you know what the 9VAC
is really used for though? I mean, do peripherals ever really use it
to drive another transformer, or rectify negative voltages out of it?
Maybe just having a switch that makes it put out pulsed +9VDC (yech)
for xfmrs, or straight pos or neg DC, could cover the cases? Just
yammering here... John Wilson D Bit
On the VIC/64/128, the 9VAC is internally
turned into unregulated 9VDC,
shunted to 6.3V and fed to the cassette port MOTOR pin under SW
control. The original 9VAC is also fed to the user port.
ON the SX64, I believe, has one leg of the user port grounded where 9VAC
would normally be found.
Very few peripherals used it.
On the 64/128, the 60hz (or 50, depending on the country) cycle was used
to drive the clock in the 6526, so it's required for machine basic
operation. Though, only a trickle square wave is needed for that purpose.
VIC folks can cheat and just put 9VDC there, but 64 folks need the AC.
I am considering a switch like you suggest. BUt, it's somewhat kludgey.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
3:02 p.m.
On 6/24/13 4:56 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
On 6/24/2013 4:38 PM, John Wilson wrote:
FWIW, the 64 will run without the AC signal. I set up one to run on
DC, and it worked fine, excepting the jiffy clock. (this is from
memory, I can't remember the details, but I recall desoldering a
regulator and injecting 9vdc. ) It booted just fine. I'm sure some
things would be broken, but the 60hz wasn't used for any critical
interrupts or timing AFAIK.
-Ryan
Getting 9VAC out of an SMPS design sounds tricky
though. I looked
into the same kind of thing a bit (wondering whether having an output
for AC spindle motors that takes care of 120/240 V and 50/60 Hz
differences would be worth the trouble, to make any drive work in any
country) and decided it was over my head and probably very expensive.
Maybe you can cheat (and cover 90% of users) if you know what the
9VAC is really used for though? I mean, do peripherals ever really
use it to drive another transformer, or rectify negative voltages out
of it? Maybe just having a switch that makes it put out pulsed +9VDC
(yech) for xfmrs, or straight pos or neg DC, could cover the cases?
Just yammering here... John Wilson D Bit
On the VIC/64/128, the 9VAC is internally
turned into unregulated
9VDC, shunted to 6.3V and fed to the cassette port MOTOR pin under SW
control. The original 9VAC is also fed to the user port.
ON the SX64, I believe, has one leg of the user port grounded where
9VAC would normally be found.
Very few peripherals used it.
On the 64/128, the 60hz (or 50, depending on the country) cycle was
used to drive the clock in the 6526, so it's required for machine
basic operation. Though, only a trickle square wave is needed for
that purpose.
VIC folks can cheat and just put 9VDC there, but 64 folks need the AC.
I am considering a switch like you suggest. BUt, it's somewhat kludgey.
Jim
5:08 p.m.
At 1:19 PM -0500 6/24/13, Jim Brain wrote:
Since I support the CBM crowd, I've had more than a
few people send
me comments over the past few years, asking when I might consider
offering a replacement power supply for the home computing machines
(VIC-20, 64, 128, +4)
What about Amiga's as well (obviously not ones like the 2000, 3000, and 4000).
The 16 and +4 might be where there is the biggest need at this point
(not sure how close to a C-64 PS they are).
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
| My Photography Website |
| http://www.zanesphotography.com |
5:26 p.m.
On 6/24/2013 7:08 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
At 1:19 PM -0500 6/24/13, Jim Brain wrote:
The Amigas, I believe, use a switching PSU.
Since I support the CBM crowd, I've had more
than a few people send
me comments over the past few years, asking when I might consider
offering a replacement power supply for the home computing machines
(VIC-20, 64, 128, +4)
What about Amiga's as well (obviously not ones like the 2000, 3000,
and 4000).
The 16 and +4 might be where there is the biggest need at this point
(not sure how close to a C-64 PS they are).
The C16 uses a wal wart
The +4 uses the same 64 PSU, but a special square DIN-like plug.
Jim
Zane
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
9:02 p.m.
On 6/24/2013 9:58 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote:
No, I am in need of them as well.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
The Amigas, I
believe, use a switching PSU.
The (very) old ones used transformers, believe it or not!
The +4 uses the same 64 PSU, but a special square
DIN-like plug.
Do you have a source for these plugs/cables? I have a pair in need
of it :o( 
25 Jun
25 Jun
4:04 a.m.
"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> writes:
What about Amiga's as well (obviously not ones
like the 2000, 3000,
and 4000).
Assuming you've got an existing broken power supply to scrounge the
square-DIN cable from, then an ordinary PC power supply will work fine
for an A500/A600/A1200 (and support more peripherals than the stock PSU,
plus providing some handy connectors for disk drives). A friend and I
both did this for our Amiga setups in the mid-90s.
--
Adam Sampson <ats at offog.org> <http://offog.org/>
5:45 a.m.
> What about Amiga's as well (obviously not ones
like the 2000, 3000,
> and 4000).
Works just fine. I did that in my "amigo" sidecar
http://www.tabalabs.com.br/amiga/amigo/
(yes, this is the only page in my site written in english, this is a
loooong story, but I'll keep that short now) :o)
6:51 a.m.
On 25 June 2013 13:45, Alexandre Souza <alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote:
Nice hack!
You do not show the power connections in the picture... Do I
understand correctly, that the Amiga is booting off a 3.5" hard disk
in the PC cabinet, and also has access to a PATA DVD drive in the
cabinet, while the PC PSU in the cabinet is also powering the Amiga?
So you have external drives combined with an external PSU and you no
longer need the Amiga's PSU brick?
How does the power get from the "sidecar" to the Amiga -- surely not
over the IDE cable? I am guessing that there is a separate power cable
to the Amiga's normal power socket, which you don't show?
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
> What about
Amiga's as well (obviously not ones like the 2000, 3000,
> and 4000).
Works just fine. I did that in my "amigo" sidecar
http://www.tabalabs.com.br/amiga/amigo/
(yes, this is the only page in my site written in english, this is a
loooong story, but I'll keep that short now) :o)
7:47 a.m.
Works just
fine. I did that in my "amigo" sidecar
http://www.tabalabs.com.br/amiga/amigo/
Nice hack! You do not show the power connections in the
picture... Do I
understand correctly, that the Amiga is booting off a 3.5" hard disk
in the PC cabinet, and also has access to a PATA DVD drive in the
cabinet, while the PC PSU in the cabinet is also powering the Amiga?
So you have external drives combined with an external PSU and you no
longer need the Amiga's PSU brick?
How does the power get from the "sidecar" to the Amiga -- surely not
over the IDE cable? I am guessing that there is a separate power cable
to the Amiga's normal power socket, which you don't show?
Yep! There is the pc power supply inside the "sidecar". It powers the
sidecar's peripherals, and a square-din-ugly-commodore-only-plugged-cable
goes to the A1200 to power it. And forget the (insert expletive here) Amiga
brick :) I thought that the PSU cable could be seen on the photos, I even
give the pinout of it to be connected to the PC PSU! :o)
9:03 a.m.
On 25 June 2013 15:47, Alexandre Souza <alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote:
Danke! :D
Yes, I saw the pinout, I just didn't see the 2nd connection in any of
the pictures.
Clever hack. Beyond my skills, I fear, which is a shame, as I could
probably use it... Not that I have fired up my Amiga in about 8 years.
:-(
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
Works just fine. I did that in my "amigo"
sidecar
http://www.tabalabs.com.br/amiga/amigo/
Nice hack! You do not show the power connections in the
picture... Do I
understand correctly, that the Amiga is booting off a 3.5" hard disk
in the PC cabinet, and also has access to a PATA DVD drive in the
cabinet, while the PC PSU in the cabinet is also powering the Amiga?
So you have external drives combined with an external PSU and you no
longer need the Amiga's PSU brick?
How does the power get from the "sidecar" to the Amiga -- surely not
over the IDE cable? I am guessing that there is a separate power cable
to the Amiga's normal power socket, which you don't show?
Yep! There is the pc power supply inside the "sidecar". It powers the
sidecar's peripherals, and a square-din-ugly-commodore-only-plugged-cable
goes to the A1200 to power it. And forget the (insert expletive here) Amiga
brick :) I thought that the PSU cable could be seen on the photos, I even
give the pinout of it to be connected to the PC PSU! :o)
9:27 a.m.
On 25 June 2013 17:16, Alexandre Souza <alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote:
Yeah, true... But I only have 1 Amiga to try on...
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
Clever hack.
Beyond my skills, I fear, which is a shame, as I could
probably use it... Not that I have fired up my Amiga in about 8 years.
:-(
"skill" is a matter of "trying". The first may be horrendus, the
second
acceptable. The third may be nice. And so on :o)
12:07 p.m.
Clever hack. Beyond my skills, I fear, which is a
shame, as I could
probably use it... Not that I have fired up my Amiga in about 8 years.
:-(
"skill" is a matter of "trying". The first may be horrendus, the
second
acceptable. The third may be nice. And so on :o)
1:49 p.m.
On 25 June 2013 20:07, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Unlike a lot of people these days, when I find I want
to do somethign
that I don't know how to do or don't have the skill to do,my reaction si
nto to give up, but to learn how to do it and to practice until I can do
it.
You have told me that you cannot drive or ride a bicycle, Tony.
Explain to me how this commendable attitude of "I can't do that, so I
will learn" applies to these activities -- daily activities for
billions of people, skills that would be very useful to you almost
every day.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
2:02 p.m.
On 25 June 2013 21:49, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
On 25 June 2013 20:07, Tony Duell <ard at
p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Several people have remonstrated with me for that, so I feel that I
should apologise.
I did not mean for the remark to be an attack, offensive, or hostile,
and I apologise if it came over as so.
My point was much simpler. Tony has criticised me in the past before,
for my poor hardware and soldering skills and my lack of interest in
learning. I merely meant to contrast my lack of interest in soldering
with Tony's professed lack of interest in learning to operate wheeled
vehicles. He has his interests, I have mine, and they're not the same.
I felt that his comment was implicitly criticising me and I was merely
seeking to remind him that we have different interests and different
priorities in life, nothing more.
I am really sorry for any offence my message might cause to Tony or to
anyone else reading it.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
Unlike a lot of people these days, when I find I
want to do somethign
that I don't know how to do or don't have the skill to do,my reaction si
nto to give up, but to learn how to do it and to practice until I can do
it.
You have told me that you cannot drive or ride a bicycle, Tony.
Explain to me how this commendable attitude of "I can't do that, so I
will learn" applies to these activities -- daily activities for
billions of people, skills that would be very useful to you almost
every day.
4:43 p.m.
Well, if this were my project, I'd take a look for surplus high-current
AC tabletop supplies (transformers). I see that Jameco has a 13.5Vac 5
amp table-top supply for $16.95. That's 67.5 W, if my math is correct.
Since the 9VAC is used sparingly in the C64, a couple of 4 volt zeners
ought to take care of that part. As far as the 5V supply, a simple
rectifier+filter and buck regulator ought to get me there. The supply
is already UL/CSA approved, so no issue there.
But that's just me.
--Chuck
5:49 p.m.
On 6/25/2013 6:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Well, if this were my project, I'd take a look for
surplus
high-current AC tabletop supplies (transformers). I see that Jameco
has a 13.5Vac 5 amp table-top supply for $16.95. That's 67.5 W, if my
math is correct.
Since the 9VAC is used sparingly in the C64, a couple of 4 volt zeners
ought to take care of that part. As far as the 5V supply, a simple
rectifier+filter and buck regulator ought to get me there. The supply
is already UL/CSA approved, so no issue there.
But that's just me.
--Chuck
It is one of the ideas. I had been having trouble finding the high
amperage needed, but this is a nice component. Thanks for the link (as
it were).
My main concern was pumping that much AC into the 64, but it's
potentially not a significant issue.
I wonder if there is a 230V variant for the non US/CA/JP crowd.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
7:36 p.m.
On 06/25/2013 05:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
My main concern was pumping that much AC into the 64,
but it's
potentially not a significant issue.
I wonder if there is a 230V variant for the non US/CA/JP crowd.
Well, there are things called "control transformers" that are almost
universally 24VAC output with a wide variety of primary configurations.
Since they're a commodity product (used on heating and HVAC systems),
they're rated for continuous use and priced quite reasonably.
But usually, they're not the "wall wart" sort of thing. To get that,
you probably need to go to transformers used with security systems
(usually 18 or 9VAC and not quite as beefy as the control transformers).
FWIW,
Chuck
10:34 p.m.
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 06/25/2013 05:49 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
Also known as class II low voltage or limited energy wiring. These
circuits are limited to a maximum of 100VA, but 20VA and 50VA are very
common. Typically the transformers to power these circuits can be had in a
standard transformer case with 'ears' to mount inside of control cabinets,
with a threaded conduit nipple on the primary (mains) side for mounting
into a 1/2" knockout in an equipment cabinet or junction box, permanently
attached or fit through a 4" square junction box cover, or DIN-rail
mountable (somewhat more expensive compared to the others).
My main concern was pumping that much AC into the
64, but it's
potentially not a significant issue.
I wonder if there is a 230V variant for the non US/CA/JP crowd.
Well, there are things called "control transformers" that are almost
universally 24VAC output with a wide variety of primary configurations.
Since they're a commodity product (used on heating and HVAC systems),
they're rated for continuous use and priced quite reasonably. But usually, they're not the "wall wart"
sort of thing. To get that,
you probably need to go to transformers used with security systems
(usually 18 or 9VAC and not quite as beefy as the control transformers).
Class II transformers are definitely not wall warts. I think Jim is more
leaning towards a brick-style supply, more like what the C64 originally
used (but probably smaller since larger magnetic transformer bricks are no
longer the norm).
Another thing that comes to mind regarding some of the regulations are the
energy efficiency regulations. Going forward, keeping these power supplies
legal to sell/export/import worldwide is pretty much going to rule out a
magnetic transformer based design. Magnetic transformers tend to be more
expensive than switch mode power supplies now anyway, due to all the bulk
copper and iron in the transformer.
With the US regulations, "The Energy Independence and Security Act of
2007" did specifically exempt power supplies that are designed to supply
more than one voltage, but the US DOE already wants tighter regulations
and even higher efficiency standards for external power supplies.
http://www.eebeat.com/?p=5808
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Independence_and_Security_Act_of_2007#T…
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/residential/pdfs/…
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/laws/eisa
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-110hr6enr/pdf/BILLS-110hr6enr.pdf
26 Jun
26 Jun
1:09 p.m.
Another thing that comes to mind regarding some of the
regulations are the
energy efficiency regulations. Going forward, keeping these power supplies
legal to sell/export/import worldwide is pretty much going to rule out a
magnetic transformer based design. Magnetic transformers tend to be more
What on earth is a non-magnetic transformer?
expensive than switch mode power supplies now anyway,
due to all the bulk
copper and iron in the transformer.
With the US regulations, "The Energy Independence and Security Act of
2007" did specifically exempt power supplies that are designed to supply
more than one voltage, but the US DOE already wants tighter regulations
and even higher efficiency standards for external power supplies.
http://www.eebeat.com/?p=5808
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_Independence_and_Security_Act_of_2007#T…
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/residential/pdfs/…
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/laws/eisa
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-110hr6enr/pdf/BILLS-110hr6enr.pdf
Why can;t these politicians do something useful....
Is there an excemption for a PSU that outputs line frequency AC? There
darn well ougth to be,
Is there an exemption for prototypes, kits, designs, etc? If so, that's
another reason for producing this C64 PSU in such a form.
I suspect that these regualtions wil lactually _increase_ polution. A
mains transformer, if not overloaded, is pretty reliavle. An SMPSU will
fail catestrophicially if certian components fail. In particular, if the
snubber circuit on the cohpper transformer primary goes open circuit, the
chopper transisotr is very likely to fail. Which normally happens byy it
goign short-circuit. ANd blowing other components in the process.
Now, these little wall-wart SMPSUs are normally glued together (so
difficult to repair) and presumably assembled iwht lead-free solder, so
that failed conenctions are likely. I susepct the numbero f repalceemtn
SMPUS needed causes a lot more polution than the eneryy wasted in a
mains-frequency transofrmer (which can be pretty efficient).
Oh well...
-tony
5:48 p.m.
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013, Tony Duell wrote:
What on earth is a non-magnetic transformer?
Obviously, it is a transformewr that does not use magnetic fields. They
don't seem to be commercially available :-( Not even on eBay.
But, you could probably make one with a few DEDs (Dark Emitting Diode) and
some -3.1415926K ohm resistors. You need at least 3 of them, and a
driver's license, to build a Flux Capacitor to make a Delorean useful.
1:01 p.m.
Well, there are things called "control
transformers" that are almost
universally 24VAC output with a wide variety of primary configurations.
Odd... TO me, a 'Cotnrol trnasformer' is somethign totally different.
It's a rotating device with a 3 phase stator and a single phhase rotor,
the phhase of the votlage induced in the rotor (relative to the stator
drive waveforms) depends on the angular position of the shaft. They were
typically used as position feedback devies in servomechanisms.
I would say this is anothjer English .vs. American difference, except I
am pretty sure the book I read about such things in was an American book...
-tony
5:16 p.m.
On 06/26/2013 01:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
I would say this is anothjer English .vs. American
difference, except I
am pretty sure the book I read about such things in was an American book...
Google the term "control transformer" and see what the first 10 hits
refer to. On my system, they're all for the 24VAC variety offered by
Eaton, Honeywell, Allen-Bradley, Omega, Rockwell,...
--Chuck
12:39 p.m.
My point was much simpler. Tony has criticised me in
the past before,
for my poor hardware and soldering skills and my lack of interest in
learning. I merely meant to contrast my lack of interest in soldering
with Tony's professed lack of interest in learning to operate wheeled
vehicles. He has his interests, I have mine, and they're not the same.
Sure.
And if, say this was a photography, or sport, or needlework, or music, or
motoring or... list I would entirely agree with you.
Similarly, if your interest was runnign clasisc softwre under emulators,
I would agree with you too.
However, you have said on several occasions that you can;'t do something
like wirr up a PSU connector, or wire a serial cable, or solder in an IC
socket, or... OK, perhaps to me these are very easy jobs simply becasue
I've neen doing such thigns for over 35 years. And I will accept they are
not easy to a lot of people. There may be people with disabilites that
would make it very hard for them to sodler well (to turn it around, I am
almost tone-deaf, this means I would never be able to play a musical
instrument well, if at all).
But I do feel that anybody who can operate a vehicle is physcialyl
capable of learnign to sodler if they want to. You may decide you don;t
want to, which is fine.
But on several occiasions you have said you cna't do something that
presuambly you want ot do because you can't solder. My point is that my
attiditue to such problems (I want to do <foo> but I don;t know how) is
to start learing how ot do <foo> and practice it until I can.
-tony
2:46 p.m.
New subject: Soldering (was Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options)
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013, Tony Duell wrote:
However, you have said on several occasions that you
can;'t do something
like wirr up a PSU connector, or wire a serial cable, or solder in an IC
socket, or... OK, perhaps to me these are very easy jobs simply becasue
I've neen doing such thigns for over 35 years. And I will accept they are
not easy to a lot of people. There may be people with disabilites that
would make it very hard for them to sodler well (to turn it around, I am
almost tone-deaf, this means I would never be able to play a musical
instrument well, if at all).
As someone who is blind in the eyes of the law (my eyesight is poor enough
for me to be considered legally blind, but I can still see enough to use a
computer and similar) I still intend to learn to solder well.
I have quite a bit of determination...if someone tells me something is
impossible I will usually not believe them. ;)
But I do feel that anybody who can operate a vehicle
is physcialyl
capable of learnign to sodler if they want to. You may decide you don;t
want to, which is fine.
I can't operate a vehicle due to my eyesight...I can solder to a tiny
extent though! (Just a couple days ago I successfully soldered 3 whole wires to
something! Some of my first experience with soldering...it will not be my
last...It was just a quick little thing, I really should've started on
something easier than trying to make an MMJ->DE9 cable out of a DE9->USB
device)
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
27 Jun
27 Jun
10:44 a.m.
New subject: Soldering (was Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options)
As someone who is blind in the eyes of the law (my
eyesight is poor enough
for me to be considered legally blind, but I can still see enough to use a
computer and similar) I still intend to learn to solder well.
Good for you! My comment meant, of course, that some people who are
legally blind may be unable to learn to sodler because of their lack of
eyesight, bnot that all legally-blind people will eb unable to solder.
I once corresponded with aguy who was legally blind (I do not know how
poor his signt really was) who could desolder DIL pacakges with the best
of them. He could feel when a pin had come free.
I have quite a bit of determination...if someone tells
me something is
impossible I will usually not believe them. ;)
Yes, my attitude too. If I am told I will be unable to do something that
I want to do, it makes me more determined to porve them wrong.
-tony
25 Jun
25 Jun
2:08 p.m.
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013, Liam Proven wrote:
On 25 June 2013 20:07, Tony Duell <ard at
p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Um, maybe because both of those conveyances don't involve a donkey and a
wooden cart? :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Unlike a lot of people these days, when I find I
want to do somethign
that I don't know how to do or don't have the skill to do,my reaction si
nto to give up, but to learn how to do it and to practice until I can do
it.
You have told me that you cannot drive or ride a bicycle, Tony.
Explain to me how this commendable attitude of "I can't do that, so I
will learn" applies to these activities -- daily activities for
billions of people, skills that would be very useful to you almost
every day.
26 Jun
26 Jun
12:31 p.m.
On 25 June 2013 20:07, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
It is ture that I have said that, and what I said was true. It still is.
Unlike a lot of people these days, when I find I
want to do somethign
that I don't know how to do or don't have the skill to do,my reaction si
nto to give up, but to learn how to do it and to practice until I can do
it.
You have told me that you cannot drive or ride a bicycle, Tony. Explain to me how this commendable attitude of "I
can't do that, so I
will learn" applies to these activities -- daily activities for
You ahve misesed out the 'when I find I want to do something...'There are
plenty of otehr things I cannot do. I cannot play any musical
instruments. I cna't run a marathon. I can't read Russian (or Japanese,
or...).. SOme of those things will, Isuspect always be impossible for
me. I might decide I wish to learn another human language at some point.
But at the moment I don't feel the need.
I think there are several parts to this answer...
The first can be illustrated by a trivial example. I have a Creed 444
teleprinter (aak 'Telepritner 15') which is currently set up for 75 baud
working. I would prefer 50 baud. Now the buad rate is set by the
reduction gear ration betwee nthe (synchronous) motor speindle and the
layshaft. At one time you could buy a pair of gears to get 50 baud, but
alls ITT-Creed are no longer around.
Now, these are what are known as 'skew helical gears; The 2 shafts are
offset and at right angles ot each other. At this stage I do not know the
gear ration I would need (and hence the numebr of teeth), I do not know
what angles to gut the teeh at, and I have never cut a skew helical gear
in my life.
But my intention, when I haev enough time to work on it (it's a private
project, I can do it when I like), is to find out how to design skew
helical gears, work out the ration I need, and have a go at cutting them.
The first attempt will be a mess. So I will try again. And a gain. That's
how I will learn.
OK, that explains my attitude to things I want to do.
Now, as to trasnprotation.
I can't see any time when being able ot ride a bicycle would be useful to
me. I live in London. There is reasoanble public transport. The only
times I would need my own transport would be either if public transport
did not go where I wanted to go (and cixce bicycles are not carried on
London buses or undergroudn trains, it is hard to see how having a
bicycle would help here, presumbly the place I want to get to is a lon
way for here) or becuase I ahve something large and heavy to move, again
a bicycel is not going to be much of a help.
Now for the car. The problem is cost. Motoring is not cheap. My fatehr
had a small-ish car. He had not been responsible for any accidents for
many years. And yet he paid around \pounds 100 per month for insurance.
For me, if I learnt to drive and was a new driver, it would be
considerably more. Add on the cost of fuel, spare parts, oil, etc (OK,
there would be no servicing labour charge, as I'd do it myself), amd the
cost would be ridiculously high. As it is, I pai under \pounds 100 per
month for a London bus pass. That suits my needs at the momnet.
_If_ my circumstances change i na way taht a car would be useful, then I
would seriously consdier learning to drive.
Nor for classic computers and repairs.
COntrary to popualr beleive, I do not feel that everybody needs ot be
able to solder [1]. I don't ever feel that everybody here needs ot eb
able to solder. If your interest in in classic computer software and you
tun in under one of the excellent emultors that are avaiable, then that's
fine. You don't need to solder.
BUT if you want to run the original hardwere then you have to accept that
it will fail sometimes. Yes, I find classisc computers to be relaible in
general. But the do still need repairs from time to time. Everything
does. And I don;t know of any company that wil ltake on such repairs.
Owing to the laws i nthe UK, it would be difficult to set up such a
company and make a profit (the cost of complying wit hthe regualtions
would exceed any money you might make). So there are some things you wil
lahve to do yourself. You mioght get lucky and find an enthusiast who
will do the job for you, but such people tend to do it from the goodness
of their heart and do such one only if they want to and only when they
want to.
There are of course plenty of people here (and elsewhere) who will hlep
you track down the fault. But nobofy can replace an IC over an e-mail
connection. I migth be able to suggest the right place to stick the
'scope probe, and hlep you interpret the wabveforms, but in the end, when
I've said that 'THe 7474 flip-flop at location U17 is defective), YOU
have to desolder that 14 pin IC and solder in a replacement.
Now, I beleive you can ride a bicycle. I do not know if oyu can drive.
But I am conviced that anybody who can do either has enough use and
conordination of their hands and good enough eyesight to eb able to
solder. It is just a mater of practice.
[1] Although at one time it was expected taht people could solder. I have
user manuals for consumer audio equipment up to the 1970s whcih give
instructions for soldering wires ot the input cable, changing resistors
inside to set input sensitivities, etc.
billions of people, skills that would be very useful
to you almost
every day.
Just out of curiousity, since I have never been anable to get to a place
I wish to get to (at least not a place wheee having a car or bicycle
would help), how would I find these skills useful 'almost every day'?
-tony
25 Jun
25 Jun
4:21 p.m.
On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 09:45:33AM -0300, Alexandre Souza wrote:
Works just fine. I did that in my "amigo"
sidecar
http://www.tabalabs.com.br/amiga/amigo/
Very nice job!
I've never found an A1200 with the Amiga logo rather than the Commodore
one in the top left corner in the UK -- is it an Amiga International
(post-Commodore) one, or were they all like that in Brazil?
--
Adam Sampson <ats at offog.org> <http://offog.org/>
24 Jun
24 Jun
7:40 p.m.
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013, Jim Brain wrote:
Since I support the CBM crowd, I've had more than
a few people send me
comments over the past few years, asking when I might consider offering a
replacement power supply for the home computing machines (VIC-20, 64, 128,
+4)
Initially, I resisted for liability reasons and certification costs.
But, I decided earlier this year to put off those questions for a bit and
just see what might be technically and economically possible.
I've chased a few ultimately fruitless options, and I thought I'd see if some
fellow soul on this list might have some ideas.
Obviously, the first thought was a complete custom supply. My interest was
never in power design, so I am ill-equipped (and uncertain of my abilities)
to design such an item myself. Thus, I started looking for a manufacturer
that could design one.
Absolute requirements:
5VDC at 4.3A.
9VAC at 9VA unregulated
To this I added my requirements:
The 5VDC be a switching PSU output
ISO C13 input power jack (so I can support many areas without building custom
power cords
115/230 switchable design (or two very similar designs that can handle the 2
voltages)
My cost under USD$30.00 per unit.
Enclosed finished case, or be able to fit in a commonly available case
design.
Someone put me in touch with Stontronics overseas, which worked on an initial
quote. But, I think the C13 and 115/230 requirements scared them off.
I solicited information from Bear Power Supplies in the US, but they did not
seem too keen on continuing the discussion, so I have nothing from them.
I've also tried overseas suppliers, but I have not yielded fruit yet. I've
asked all the PSU suppliers on globalsources.com and alibaba.com
I have struggled to find a custom PSU manufacturer that can handle a suitable
design.
If you are open to considering either a C5 or C7 IEC 60320 coupler instead
of the C13, you'll probably have better luck with the PSU vendors. If you
don't need the ground/earth terminal (I can't see why it would be needed
for a replacement C64 PSU) a C7 will also cut the per unit cost and allow
for a smaller case.
Have you tried contacting Delta? In years past this sort of "unusual" PSU
would have been right up their alley, but they might require a large
production run. They can even build them where the casing is held together
with screws instead of being solvent welded together, making them easier
to service later (once the filter caps begin to dry out in a decade or
so). On that note, you would probably also want to specify that only
genuine, high quality 105C rated filter capacitors are to be used, from
either Nichicon, Rubycon, or Panasonic (and specify the series).
8 p.m.
If the 9VAC is only used to produce the +volts for the serial
chips, there is no real reason to use AC. A +15VDC would most
likely work fine.
One could use a cheap small switcher.
Dwight
9:04 p.m.
On 6/24/2013 10:00 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
If the 9VAC is only used to produce the +volts for the
serial
chips, there is no real reason to use AC. A +15VDC would most
likely work fine.
One could use a cheap small switcher.
Dwight
As previously noted in my original post, the TOD clock uses the 50/60
hz
to update the TOD time. Without it on the 9VAC lines, the TOD clock
will not run. Some apps will not function as a result.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
9:53 p.m.
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013, Jim Brain wrote:
On 6/24/2013 10:00 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
If you are considering a full-range switch-mode PSU (100-240V), it might
indeed be best to synthesize 60Hz using modern parts so that the same PSUs
can be used in countries that supply mains power at 50Hz.
If the 9VAC is only used to produce the +volts
for the serial
chips, there is no real reason to use AC. A +15VDC would most
likely work fine.
One could use a cheap small switcher.
Dwight
As previously noted in my original post, the TOD clock uses the 50/60 hz to
update the TOD time. Without it on the 9VAC lines, the TOD clock will not
run. Some apps will not function as a result.
9:01 p.m.
On 6/24/2013 9:40 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013, Jim Brain wrote:
If you are open to considering either a C5 or C7 IEC 60320 coupler
instead of the C13, you'll probably have better luck with the PSU
vendors. If you don't need the ground/earth terminal (I can't see why
it would be needed for a replacement C64 PSU) a C7 will also cut the
per unit cost and allow for a smaller case.
I'm game, but can you obtain those
cords easily for non US/CA/JP countries?
Have you tried contacting Delta? In years past this sort of "unusual"
PSU would have been right up their alley, but they might require a
large production run. They can even build them where the casing is
held together with screws instead of being solvent welded together,
making them easier to service later (once the filter caps begin to dry
out in a decade or so). On that note, you would probably also want to
specify that only genuine, high quality 105C rated filter capacitors
are to be used, from either Nichicon, Rubycon, or Panasonic (and
specify the series).
No, you're the second person to recommend Delta, and I
will reach out to
them.
JIm
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
9:49 p.m.
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013, Jim Brain wrote:
I previously would have suggested Astec and LiteOn as two other possible
manufacturers, but Astec is now owned by Emerson and almost certainly
wouldn't be willing to do small volume anymore, and I've had a very high
failure rate with certain 5VDC PSUs (~1 year old) from LiteOn lately due
to really, really poor quality electrolytic capacitors.
On 6/24/2013 9:40 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
[I should have said C6 or C8, rather than C5 or C7, since C5/C7 are the
cord-end and C6/C8 the inlet.]
Certainly. Lots of companies manufacture C7 cords with BS1363, CEE7/7,
CEE7/17, AS3112, etc plugs. For example,
http://www.signalandpower.com/IEC-C7-Power-Cords/
On Mon, 24 Jun 2013, Jim Brain wrote:
If you are open to considering either a C5 or C7 IEC 60320 coupler instead
of the C13, you'll probably have better luck with the PSU vendors. If you
don't need the ground/earth terminal (I can't see why it would be needed
for a replacement C64 PSU) a C7 will also cut the per unit cost and allow
for a smaller case.
I'm game, but can you obtain those cords easily for non
US/CA/JP countries? Have you tried
contacting Delta? In years past this sort of "unusual" PSU
would have been right up their alley, but they might require a large
production run. They can even build them where the casing is held together
with screws instead of being solvent welded together, making them easier to
service later (once the filter caps begin to dry out in a decade or so). On
that note, you would probably also want to specify that only genuine, high
quality 105C rated filter capacitors are to be used, from either Nichicon,
Rubycon, or Panasonic (and specify the series).
No, you're the second person
to recommend Delta, and I will reach out to
them. 
11:57 p.m.
On 25/06/2013 03:40, Tothwolf wrote:
If you are open to considering either a C5 or C7 IEC
60320 coupler
instead of the C13, you'll probably have better luck with the PSU
vendors. If you don't need the ground/earth terminal (I can't see why it
would be needed for a replacement C64 PSU) a C7 will also cut the per
unit cost and allow for a smaller case.
I don't think you mean C5 (or C6). That's a 3-pin, the one sometimes
called "mickey mouse ears", and one of the less-common types. I mostly
see it on Toshiba laptop power supplies.
C7 (cord connector) and C8 (inlet) is 2-pin. It's the one often
referred to as "figure of eight", and the only common 2-pin.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
25 Jun
25 Jun
12:11 a.m.
Quoting Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com>:
I don't think you mean C5 (or C6). That's a
3-pin, the one sometimes
called "mickey mouse ears", and one of the less-common types. I mostly
see it on Toshiba laptop power supplies.
C7 (cord connector) and C8 (inlet) is 2-pin. It's the one often
referred to as "figure of eight", and the only common 2-pin.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320
6:51 a.m.
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013, Pete Turnbull wrote:
On 25/06/2013 03:40, Tothwolf wrote:
No...I did mean C6 (3-pin) since Jim mentioned asking PSU builders about
the C13 (C14 inlet). If the PSU doesn't require an earth/ground terminal
though, the C8 would probably be a better choice since it would be less
expensive to implement than either a C14 or C6 inlet, and take up less
space. The only other reason I could see for using the C14 over the C8 or
C6 is that the C14 is good for up to 10A, whereas the C8 and C6 are rated
for 2.5A, but I really can't see a C64 PSU needing more than 2.5A at mains
voltage.
The C5/C6 is now very very common with newer laptops and IT equipment. In
the US, the C7P polarized version is extremely common with consumer home
audio equipment. Both the C1 and a coupler similar to the C1 that is more
rectangular with rounded corners (still 6.6mm c-c) vs the more oval
version in the standards are also very common with battery powered
portable radios and similar that also have an internal power supply. The
'rectangular C1' cords that I have on hand are made with 18 AWG SPT-1 cord
and have 125V 7A molded into the coupler body.
If you are open to considering either a C5 or C7
IEC 60320 coupler
instead of the C13, you'll probably have better luck with the PSU
vendors. If you don't need the ground/earth terminal (I can't see why
it would be needed for a replacement C64 PSU) a C7 will also cut the
per unit cost and allow for a smaller case.
I don't think you mean C5 (or C6). That's a 3-pin, the one sometimes
called "mickey mouse ears", and one of the less-common types. I mostly
see it on Toshiba laptop power supplies.
C7 (cord connector) and C8 (inlet) is 2-pin. It's the one often
referred to as "figure of eight", and the only common 2-pin.
10:23 a.m.
On 6/25/2013 8:51 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013, Pete Turnbull wrote:
My only rationale was finding a common
way to handle all of the
disparate power cord options from the different countries. The newer
C128 and 1764-equipped C64 PSUs were 3 pin, so I started there,
On 25/06/2013 03:40, Tothwolf wrote:
No...I did mean C6 (3-pin) since Jim mentioned asking PSU builders
about the C13 (C14 inlet). If the PSU doesn't require an earth/ground
terminal though, the C8 would probably be a better choice since it
would be less expensive to implement than either a C14 or C6 inlet,
and take up less space. The only other reason I could see for using
the C14 over the C8 or C6 is that the C14 is good for up to 10A,
whereas the C8 and C6 are rated for 2.5A, but I really can't see a C64
PSU needing more than 2.5A at mains voltage. If you are open to considering either a C5 or C7
IEC 60320 coupler
instead of the C13, you'll probably have better luck with the PSU
vendors. If you don't need the ground/earth terminal (I can't see
why it would be needed for a replacement C64 PSU) a C7 will also cut
the per unit cost and allow for a smaller case.
I don't think you mean C5 (or C6). That's a 3-pin, the one sometimes
called "mickey mouse ears", and one of the less-common types. I
mostly see it on Toshiba laptop power supplies.
C7 (cord connector) and C8 (inlet) is 2-pin. It's the one often
referred to as "figure of eight", and the only common 2-pin.
The C5/C6 is now very very common with newer laptops and IT equipment.
In the US, the C7P polarized version is extremely common with consumer
home audio equipment. Both the C1 and a coupler similar to the C1 that
is more rectangular with rounded corners (still 6.6mm c-c) vs the more
oval version in the standards are also very common with battery
powered portable radios and similar that also have an internal power
supply. The 'rectangular C1' cords that I have on hand are made with
18 AWG SPT-1 cord and have 125V 7A molded into the coupler body.
Besides
potentially, Delta, though, I'm not having much luck with any
type of connector.
Sigh.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
3:31 p.m.
On 25/06/2013 14:51, Tothwolf wrote:
No...I did mean C6 (3-pin) since Jim mentioned asking
PSU builders about
the C13 (C14 inlet).
Things may be different in the US, but C13/C14 is the most common in UK
and Europe, and C5/C6 is relatively rare, which makes them more
expensive here.
If the PSU doesn't require an earth/ground
terminal
though, the C8 would probably be a better choice since it would be less
expensive to implement than either a C14 or C6 inlet, and take up less
space.
Agreed.
The C5/C6 is now very very common with newer laptops
and IT equipment.
In the US, the C7P polarized version is extremely common with consumer
home audio equipment. Both the C1 and a coupler similar to the C1 that
is more rectangular with rounded corners (still 6.6mm c-c) vs the more
oval version in the standards are also very common with battery powered
portable radios and similar that also have an internal power supply.
I can remember only ever once seeing a C7P, and although I've seen, and
possess, some C1 cables, I haven't seen any new equipment use them in a
couple of decades. Again, possibly a difference between territories,
but I imagine the cost difference is very small. The space difference
certainly is. Another factor, at least here, is that C5 is so common,
people have cables going spare all the time, and that makes for a
self-perpetuating or even escalating commonness.
I bet we both agree that anything from IEC 60309 isn't required here,
though :-)
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
10:41 p.m.
On Tue, 25 Jun 2013, Pete Turnbull wrote:
It might very well be that manufacturers prefer to use the C7 and C1 in
countries where 100-120V is common. A lot of the equipment with these
connectors is from Japan-based companies, although the bulk of the
equipment itself is probably made in China now. The C7 (non-polarized) is
still very common with laptop power bricks too, though.
I have lots of plastic bins full of C13 cords, and at least one filled
with C7 cords. In fact if you happen to need a C7P with a polarized NEMA
5-15P and have trouble finding one, I've got lots of extras left over from
when I used to service consumer A/V gear (I doubt these would be of much
use in the UK, though). Another very common use for the C7P cords are
camcorder battery chargers.
On 25/06/2013 14:51, Tothwolf wrote:
Interesting. I wonder if many of the laptop suppliers included different
power bricks there? Lenovo, Dell, and HP all use the C5/C6 with many of
their US marketed laptops.
No...I did mean C6 (3-pin) since Jim mentioned
asking PSU builders about
the C13 (C14 inlet).
Things may be different in the US, but C13/C14 is the most common in UK
and Europe, and C5/C6 is relatively rare, which makes them more
expensive here. The C5/C6 is
now very very common with newer laptops and IT equipment.
In the US, the C7P polarized version is extremely common with consumer
home audio equipment. Both the C1 and a coupler similar to the C1 that
is more rectangular with rounded corners (still 6.6mm c-c) vs the more
oval version in the standards are also very common with battery powered
portable radios and similar that also have an internal power supply.
I can remember only ever once seeing a C7P, and although I've seen, and
possess, some C1 cables, I haven't seen any new equipment use them in a
couple of decades. Again, possibly a difference between territories,
but I imagine the cost difference is very small. The space difference
certainly is. Another factor, at least here, is that C5 is so common,
people have cables going spare all the time, and that makes for a
self-perpetuating or even escalating commonness. I bet we both agree that anything from IEC 60309
isn't required here,
though :-)
IEC 60309...lol. No, I don't think a C64 PSU will require /that/ much
current. I imagine someone has used a NEMA L5-15 or L5-20 with a C64 PSU
at some point though ;)
11:53 a.m.
I don't think you mean C5 (or C6). That's a
3-pin, the one sometimes
called "mickey mouse ears", and one of the less-common types. I mostly
see it on Toshiba laptop power supplies.
A relative of a mad friend of mine calls it 'figure of twelve'(by analogy
with 'figure of 8' of course), a name which seems to have stuck around
here...
IIRC Maplin sell (or sold) an IMHO lethal adapter to use s a figure-of-8
female with afigure of 12 male. That is, to ignore the earth pin on the
device. No thanks!
Doe s a rewirible C5 socket exist? I've not seen one. I have seen (and
used) a rewirable C7.
-tony
3959
days inactive
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days old
86 comments
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alexandre.tabajara＠gmail.com -
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cclist＠sydex.com -
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