test-drb July 1999

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

175 participants
662 discussions

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< 1. If the IBM 5150 XT computer came with documentation Yes, a hell of a lot more than current hardware does. < 2. Is an IBM monitor, model # 5153 (Personal Computer Color Display) is <compatible with an IBM 5150 XT? likely. < 3. What kind of monitor (graphics array) is an IBM 5153. I would guess <EGA, but don't know. That would be CGA. Pick up a copy (old one if possible) of the QUE publications _Upgrading and Repairing PCs. Most of the editions were very IBM centric and useful as reference. I keep a 3rd ed. for looking up connectors, drives and the like. You have better luck fining it in a library or used book shop than on the WWW. Allison

25 years, 5 months

State of the Hobby

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<> In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off a <> $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that wa Aas someone that placed that order asap back when, that was several months savings! the new ford truck (F250 4x4 pickup) was only $2700. and it would take weeks to make it do something. later more money to replace the damm S4Ks with 88MCDs and again with seals 8k static. <Which may very well prove one point being brought up, that some people are <not collecting to use or preserve, but merely to display and trophy. or worse they havent a clue what is important save for a few names. <> When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. Th <> last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, a <> typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the same, an <> terminal cost $750. When? In 1977 it's was more like(8080 or z80/2mhz) $399 by 1979 it was 299 and 4mhz z80, 81 a cpu board had z80b ram, rom serial and floppy at $599. hard to compare apples and oranges. <Yeah, but today I can get a 3.5" floppy drive that holds more data and is <faster, for $35. I can get a Pentium-II CPU at 350Mhz for certainly less <than $250, and a floppy controller is built into the motherboard I buy for <under $100. So how does your price comparison stand up now? cost of technology has dropped without question. My first SRAM was 1uS 1101 part (256x1) at $9.95, a bargan then. Later it would be 2102 at $16.00 a pop. Now 16mb is $16! the funny twist is if I wasted to make a s100 card around said 16mb dram it would still cost $$$. Allison

25 years, 5 months

State of the Hobby

by edick＠idcomm.com

See embedded comments below, plz Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 8:08 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> This argument is getting to where it's pretty silly. >> >> I don't see how anyone can complain about buying used computer hardware for >> considerably less than it cost when new. > >It's called "inflation". Look it up. > Nope, Sam, once again you demonstrate your proclivity to yack before you look. Inflation would make the current price HIGHER. That's why a $1 item, so priced in 1967, costs over $3 today, and, in some cases, >$4. Perhaps you need to look it up. > >> The mythical "free Altair" which pops up again and again is generally sold, >> even in "better than new" (properly assembled and functional) condition for >> significantly less than what it cost new, in "real" dollars. -- YES -- even >> on eBay! > >Would you buy a 1967 model Beetle for what a 1999 model costs? > If, as is the case with many "antique" computers, it is, in fact in better condition than when it was new, having been properly assembled, all the routing errors on the PCB corrected, and proved running. If it had been as well preserved as may computers I've seen dating back to then, I'd probably say "yes." Naturally, the fact that nothing built in Mexico with the shoddy quality control standards they must have to use to get anything from their assembly lines approved at all, makes me wonder whether I'd want one of the new ones at all. In '67, I bought a VW beetle for just under $1300. They cost significantly more than that here in the US, but I was in Germany. If I encountered one in like-new condition, in like-new state of wear, with all the features intact, it would probably never be offered for anything nearly so low as the '99's. > >> In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at >> $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was >> in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. I'm >> presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 each, >> functionally tested and aligned, plus the estimated cost of packaging and >> shipping, since I don't want more work on top of the alignment and testing, >> estimated by Mailboxes, etc, which is where I'll have them boxed and >> shipped. I've offered these same drives to people, as is, for just the cost >> of shipping, and most wouldn't pay even for the shipping. > >Which may very well prove one point being brought up, that some people are >not collecting to use or preserve, but merely to display and trophy. > >Still, your price comparisons are nonsense. > >> When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. The >> last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, a >> typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the same, and a >> terminal cost $750. > >Yeah, but today I can get a 3.5" floppy drive that holds more data and is >faster, for $35. > I don't doubt that. Most anyone else could buy them for the normal market price of $22. Nevertheless, what would you have to pay to get an 8" drive today? The 3.5" drive may be better, but can't read 32-sector hard-sectored media very well. Nor can it read the venerable IBM 3740-formatted diskettes which were standard distribution media for CP/M. > > I can get a Pentium-II CPU at 350Mhz for certainly less >than $250, and a floppy controller is built into the motherboard I buy for >under $100. So how does your price comparison stand up now? > >P.S. It would be nice if you'd edit the superfluous quoted reply out of >your message before sending it. Bandwidth is a precious commodity in >third world countries. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 05/25/99] >

25 years, 5 months

State of the Hobby

by edick＠idcomm.com

This argument is getting to where it's pretty silly. I don't see how anyone can complain about buying used computer hardware for considerably less than it cost when new. The mythical "free Altair" which pops up again and again is generally sold, even in "better than new" (properly assembled and functional) condition for significantly less than what it cost new, in "real" dollars. -- YES -- even on eBay! The typical PDP8 owned by persons in this particular interest group were certainly not purchased for what they cost new, even in inflated dollars, so I really can't see what the complaint is. Sure, some people are able, and, some, misguided though they may seem to be, even willing to pay more than I think they should for a given item. To them, I sell what I can. In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 each, functionally tested and aligned, plus the estimated cost of packaging and shipping, since I don't want more work on top of the alignment and testing, estimated by Mailboxes, etc, which is where I'll have them boxed and shipped. I've offered these same drives to people, as is, for just the cost of shipping, and most wouldn't pay even for the shipping. When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. The last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, a typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the same, and a terminal cost $750. If people wanted more than that for these devices, even though they were in perfectly functional and cosmetically perfect condition, I could understand the complaints. I won't be convinced that the prices being paid at auction, publicity or not, for "old, used, obsolete" computers or component are unreasonable until someone shows me a similarly pristine '55 Thunderbird that's going unsold because its price is over half what it cost new. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey l Kaneko <jeff.kaneko(a)juno.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 10:36 AM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >This will draw alot of flames, and may upset certain people. >Please send personal attacks to me directly. > >On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:20:38 -0700 Kai Kaltenbach <kaikal(a)MICROSOFT.com> >writes: >> Classic computer collecting is rewarding on so many levels. And in >> so many senses, we have a collector community relationship that rivals >those >> of much more established hobbies. That's why it's so important, as the > >> hobby begins to reach maturity, that we not lose sight of our >fundamentals. > >But you've missed the one 'fundamental' that uniquely gives our hobby >its true appeal: Our hobby exists (existed) purely for its own sake. >No strings, wire, or unneeded baggage. It existed purely for the joy >of computing at its most base level, and the aquisition of knowledge >of the science. > >> Lately, there has been a disturbing trend towards isolationism and >> elitism among our flock, up to and including outright hostility. This >has >> got to stop. > >Hostile? Yer damned right. We're on the defensive now. The >'marketplace' >is poised to fundamentally change what I perceive as the original charter >of the computing hobby. > >> Now, as Dennis Miller says, I don't want to get off on a rant here. >> As much as anyone else, I'd like a world full of retired aerospace >> engineers with garages full of free Altairs. I'd also like the IRS >> to abolish my income taxes and give me a free Ferrari. It's just not >> going to work that way, folks. > >You hit a raw nerve here, buddy boy. I don't *want* garages of free >Altairs (or whatever). All I want is to be able to purchase the material > >that is of interest to me at a *reasonable* price. Now the retired >Aerospace >Engineer thinks he can make a fortune off his old computers. Piss. > >> Lashing out at people who want to publicize our hobby is like >> sitting in the nosebleed section of your hometown baseball stadium >> and hoping to god that your team loses big so you can afford better >> tickets next year. > >This to me, clearly says you have no clue as to what is at stake here. >>From my perspective, it's more like lashing out at land speculators >who want to parcel out what was once tribal land, the parcels by the >lake commanding the highest prices. What was once an almost free and >accessable resource, now belongs only to the elite who can pay the price. > > >> Get OVER it. Nobody understands our hobby, it's next to impossible to >> properly insure, > >Insure. Huh, yeah right. Why would you want to insure something unless >you spent BIG BUCK$ on it? > >> there's far too little real museum space devoted to >> classic computers, > >Whaddaya mean by 'real museum space'?!? You mean like in the Deutsche >Museum? The LA Museum of Sci & Ind.? The Guggenheim?!?! Tell ya what. >When these 'heavies' get real serious about computing engines built >during *my* lifetime, I'm outta here. No way I'll be able to afford it >then. > >> hundreds of historic pieces are being tossed in the >> dumpster every day, > >As tragic as this situation is, ss long as the possibility for this >exists, there will be hope for the hobbyist with little or no money >(this includes *most* of our young people). > >> and you want to keep the whole thing a big in-clique secret. >> Does this make any freaking sense to you? > >Yes. This hobby is what it is because it was populated almost >exclusively >by what I will refer to as 'true believers': Guys with little (or no) >money but alot of patience and a solid *commitment* to make the machines >live. > >Now there are amongst us speculators who don't truly believe; >they don't practice the true faith, and don't care to. All they >know is that computers have become a 'hot' collectible, and they want >a piece of the action. It is these that we must oppose. > >> Every time I hear somebody say something like, "Are you going to >> sell that to a REAL collector at a decent price or are you going to >> WHORE it on EBAY?" I just want to gag. > >I see the prices, and *I* just want to gag. The continued exposure >of our hobby on forums like E-BAy will only cause prices to rise. Very >soon, many of us will be priced out . . . > >> Amazing as this may seem, the people on eBay deserve this stuff as >> much as you do, mr. nose-in-the-air elitist. > >Maybe they do. But they have the money; many of us 'tribesmen' don't. >It seems you've mis-applied the 'eliteist' label, in this case. > >> Oh sure, who wouldn't want to buy the thing at a token "collector >price" >> and save a bunch of money, but don't make the seller feel like an ass >> because he wants to participate in a free-market economy. > >We can't stop folks from auctioning off stuff on e-bay; that's their >right. ALl I know is, is that prices are going up, and e-bay isn't >helping the matter. As far as I'm concerned, E-Bay is hurting our >hobbyist 'way of life', not enhancing it. > >> And quit calling the people on eBay "morons". OK, sure, the guy who >> bid $510 for the "signature Macintosh" was a few cans short of a >> six-pack, but if you bothered to follow up on the auction, you'd notice > >> that most of the bidders pulled out once they caught a clue. And > >I try to ignore some of the stupidity on this planet. Fortunately, >there are still (for the moment) plenty of cheap MAC's to go around. > >> everybody who pays what YOU consider a high price for a genuinely >> interesting piece of hardware is not an idiot. People pay money for >> something because they want it. So, you're basically upset that >> somebody wants it more than you do? > >SO you're convinced that someone with a pile of money to throw at >a 'hobby' simply wants it more than someone who's broke??!! Sheesh. >It must be nice to rich, so you feel justified in making implications >like that. > >IN the hobby I knew, money was only a very small part of the equation. >Used to be, all I needed was a few dollars, some basic tools, and a >little luck. Now I need *deep* pockets, too. I'm upset that the >'elite' is putting my favorite passtime out of my reach. > >> And while we're at it, what's with all this "some rich bastard >> overbid me" crap. If I went through all the classiccmp posts about >rich >> executives, rich internet IPO participants, rich employees of big >computer >> companies, and replaced all the occurrences of "rich" with "black" or >> "hispanic", the vintage computer festival would look like a Klan rally. > > >What can I say? This used to be a 'poor mans' hobby. I'm seeing one >segment being displaced and disenfranchised by another. Yep. > > "I'm the *angriest* computer nerd in America!" > >> America has always stood for a place where anybody can get rich if they > >> work hard enough. Are you upset that somebody else got there first? > >No, I'm upset that there is the pretense of a level playing field. >It *was* nearly level at one time. It isn't anymore. > >> There is a lot of assumption that, when someone pays a high price for >> a classic computer, that they A) don't know as much about it as you >> do, and B) don't care as much about it as you do, when the reverse is >> probably the case. Look, just because you refused that job opportunity > >> at Apple in 1983 because you thought the Lisa was a bomb and your >> business selling print drivers for daisywheels was doing so well, >> DOESN'T mean you're an idealist. > >All it means is that you were a little short-sighted. > >> Because somebody outbid you doesn't mean they deserve it less than >> you do. Maybe they have more cash, maybe they were just willing to bid >a >> higher perecentage of their income than you were. Heck, somebody with >cash >> probably is going to care for the item better. A good percentage of >> the purported idealists complaining about high classic computer prices >> have an Altair on their kitchen table with coffee mug rings on the top. > > >Gosh darnit, you got us there. Us pore folk generally don't have the >the fancy display and storage facilities as do our more well-heeled >bretheren. But then again, for us, these are objects of affection; we >like to keep them close to us (the kitchen or livingroom seems >appropriate). > >> Look, I'm impressed that you're reading this post through a custom >TCP/IP >> stack that you wrote for a Kaypro II. If you did that for the fun of >it, more >> power to you. If you think that doing your daily correspondence on a >dot >> matrix printer makes you a better classic computer collector than the >rest >> of us, that's something else. > >It doesn't make us better, just more joyful. > >> It's like that guy who coated the entire exterior of his 1952 >Oldsmobile >> with tiny rhinestones over a grueling 5-year period -- impressive, but >> the man obviously had too much time on his hands. > >But if it's something special to *him* isn't that part of what this hobby > >was (is) all about? > >> It is NOT necessary to have a Wozniak beard, live in a geodesic dome >> house, and drive a Volkswagen Thing to appreciate classic computers. > >Maybe not, but the way it's going, you'll have to be able to afford >the aforementioned house, and a *mint* example of the aforementioned >car before you can even *consider* having a classic computer for your >yourself. > >> Wake up, open up, embrace the world's coming to know our hobby. > >True believers only. Sorry. Greed and commercialism are threatening to >corrupt our 'society'. Maybe there's nothing we can do about it, >but we won't go quietly. . . > >> Because otherwise, one day you're going to wake up and find that not a >> single schoolchildren remembers any of this history, because somebody >> started making 6800 assembler coding an entrance requirement to the >museums. > >True believers will always welcome initiates. But only the truly >committed will mature and contribute. These are the ones who will >make our hobby live. If you shut these out by raising the price >of admission, then our hobby (as we now know it) will certainly die. > > >Jeff > > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

25 years, 5 months

Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hi Peter: In a message dated 7/1/99 10:58:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk writes: > Don't get me started on WIn'95....I've had several months of headaches caused > by THAT OS since I upgraded my PC. Sorry to hear it. 95 OSR2.x is actually a bit more stable than the earlier versions, so if you're running something prior to 2.0 you may want to upgrade again (can't believe I'm saying this . . .) People with (relatively) stable Win 95 PCs come into our shop every day wanting to move to 98, and when we ask them why they don't have an answer . . . this is a good indication of the mindset of the average PC user . . . > I'd be using Linux right now if I could get versions of the software > I > need to use for it. They'll be here soon, we hope . . . Thanks, Glen Goodwin 0/0

25 years, 5 months

Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hi Megan: Thanks for the note. I've written tons of code to interface PCs with "big" computers, but I've never had the opportunity to see any of them. Cool site! In a message dated 7/1/99 2:26:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, mbg(a)world.std.com writes: > Check out the -8s on my collection page to get an idea of size (of > systems with peripherals -- remember, the cabs are 6' high). > > http://world.std.com/~mbg/home_systems.html Glen Goodwin 0/0

25 years, 5 months

Apple //e, TRS-80 M4, IBM xstation 120 & a Socrates toy.

by arfonrg＠texas.net

Hello all, Goodwill had a $20.00 grab fest yesterday and I snagged a haul including a bunch of Apple //e's, IBM Xstation 120, Atari 800 and a TRS-80 M4. Problem: A //e, Trs-80 M4: some of the key caps are broken on these, anyone know where I can find replacement parts? Atari 800: not broken, just missing the #8 keycap. Any clues for replacement? IBM Xstation: What is the processor? What OS does it run? The Socrates toy: I found one... I vaguely remember it from some years back... I gave it to a couple that seemed to want it badly. What is it's collectable significance? A ---------------------------------------- Tired of Micro$oft??? Move up to a REAL OS... ######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ # #####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /## ####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /### ###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |#### ##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|#### # ###### ("LINUX" for those of you without fixed-width fonts) ---------------------------------------- Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com Slackware Mailing List: http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html

25 years, 5 months

PC form factor

by max82＠surfree.com

Hi, I'm wondering: was the IBM PC the first machine with PSU in the rear right, drives in the front right, motherboard in rear left, or did they borrow this design from someone else? --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power

25 years, 5 months

State of the Hobby

by edick＠idcomm.com

Don't expect sympathy from any evolutionists . . . the inability to continue in life or in any other pursuit is simply a response to the need for certain characteristics. In this case, income. If your income fails to keep up with the cost of your hobby, you have little choice but to get another hobby . . . or perhaps a job which pays better so you can forestall the same extinction event a bit. It's not fair to expect the universe to look out for you personally. It's not the way of things that YOU or I, for that matter, get to set the price of commodities on the market, else I'd set the price of gold really low when I planned on buying and really high when I planned on selling. It won't be long before you, like others on this list expect not only to get things for no cost, but you'll soon want to be paid for taking them. Dick -----Original Message----- From: William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:23 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >> But you've missed the one 'fundamental' that uniquely gives our hobby >> its true appeal: Our hobby exists (existed) purely for its own sake. >> No strings, wire, or unneeded baggage. It existed purely for the joy >> of computing at its most base level, and the aquisition of knowledge >> of the science. > >I would not say that is a rule of thumb. I think there are many people on >this list that pursue the hobby for the sake of the machines - almost as >a sense of responsibility to preserve the past. I can say that nearly >everyone at RCS shares this feeling, at least. > >> Hostile? Yer damned right. We're on the defensive now. The >> 'marketplace' >> is poised to fundamentally change what I perceive as the original charter >> of the computing hobby. > >Well, as the old German man says - "Dat ist de vay de kookie krumbles". > >See below for the explanation... > >> This to me, clearly says you have no clue as to what is at stake here. >> >From my perspective, it's more like lashing out at land speculators >> who want to parcel out what was once tribal land, the parcels by the >> lake commanding the highest prices. What was once an almost free and >> accessable resource, now belongs only to the elite who can pay the price. > >[...] > >> Now there are amongst us speculators who don't truly believe; >> they don't practice the true faith, and don't care to. All they >> know is that computers have become a 'hot' collectible, and they want >> a piece of the action. It is these that we must oppose. > >I think there are far more of these people than we think. How many of us >actually _know_ someone that is doing this? Dealers tend to be rather >open about what they do, simply because they want people to know what >they have for sale. It is basically advertising. > >> I see the prices, and *I* just want to gag. The continued exposure >> of our hobby on forums like E-BAy will only cause prices to rise. Very >> soon, many of us will be priced out . . . > >None of the computers I have seen for sale, with the exception of a Bendix >G-15, have been horribly outragous in an absolute sense. Look at just >about ANY hobby that involves things collectable - the cream will cost >four figures. Computers, depression glass, model trains, Hummels, books, >clocks, whatever. > >Computers are interesting, however, because many of the people that are >buying the things are in the computer industry, and are probably making >good money. If I were a lowly technician* at UUnet, I would still be >making enough to spend four figures _maybe_ once a year on something good >like an Altair. If I were an engineer, something I am sure many of us are, >a four figure Altair purchase would be something to stop and think about >for a minute, but nothing that would drain the kid's college fund. Let's >face it, both the money _and_the_collectors_ are in the computer industry. > >> SO you're convinced that someone with a pile of money to throw at >> a 'hobby' simply wants it more than someone who's broke??!! Sheesh. >> It must be nice to rich, so you feel justified in making implications >> like that. > >This is (mostly) America, as they say. Work your butt off and get ahead >of the game. Then buy your Altairs. So far, I know lots of people that >make decent pay because of hard work, but I know no one that gets >decent pay for whining. When I was a poor college student and wanted >something, I would put extra hours in at the warehouse. > >> IN the hobby I knew, money was only a very small part of the equation. >> Used to be, all I needed was a few dollars, some basic tools, and a >> little luck. Now I need *deep* pockets, too. I'm upset that the >> 'elite' is putting my favorite passtime out of my reach. > >Its not the "elite" that have something about cornering the computer >collectable field - it happens to ALL collectable fields. I have seen it >happen in two related instances. > >Back, maybe 15 years ago, I was in high school and was getting interested >in old electronics - specifically collecting electron tubes and military >radios. Back then, the electron tube market was just starting to go, but >the military radio market was dead. I mean dead dead. Maybe Mr. Fandt can >back me up on this, but back in 1985, one could get a Western Electric >205D vacuum tube for about $25, and an Collins R-390A receiver for, well, >free. If you paid more than $25 you were a sucker. Anyway, both markets >started to mature and prices went up. These days a 205D will cost you >about $350, and an R-390A will be about $500. Could anything stop these >price increases? No. Absolutely nothing. People started to see how >collectable these were, and in these two cases, both cream. Economics >took over, with all of that supply and demand goobledygook we all slept >thru in school. > >There were (and still are) speculators in these fields, but just not that >many. There were (are) far more dealers, because most people like quick >money, and speculation is not the place to make a quick dollar. The >dealers, for the most part, are quite open about what they do. They demand >good money because they know they can get it. The also demand good money >because there are a great many dead ends that must be looked at before a >big score. How many people like to search a dark, dirty, 110 degree F >warehouse just to find nothing, all because of a good sounding lead? > >In the two above mentioned fields, there are "big guns" - those people >that do have money. I know some of them, and have personally seen alot of >collections. Most of these guys are very knowledgable, and treat their >artifacts in a very loving manner. One of the perks of being a "big gun" >and having a super collection is that people expect them to be >authorities, and most end up being so. It works both ways - knowledge >increases with new artifacts, and the quest to get more artifacts gets >more intense as more questions arise from the knowledge. The idea that >the "rich bastards" will just glass-case the items so onlookers can stare is >basically completely wrong - with tubes, radios, or computers. Most like >to "show off" more than just what they purchased. > >In any case, the computer collecting field is going thru these changes, >and nothing will stop it. Basically, deal with it in whatever way makes >you happy, but certainly whining will do nothing but alienate. > >> True believers will always welcome initiates. But only the truly >> committed will mature and contribute. These are the ones who will >> make our hobby live. If you shut these out by raising the price >> of admission, then our hobby (as we now know it) will certainly die. > >Initiation? Sounds idealist to me. When do we get a temple? And do we get >to spank people with brightly colored paddles with latin mottos? > >*no, I was not a technician, I was an engineer, but I knew technicians. > >William Donzelli >aw288(a)osfn.org >

25 years, 5 months

State of the Hobby

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

On Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:02:51 -0600 "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> writes: > This argument is getting to where it's pretty silly. PLease, hear me out on this . . . > I don't see how anyone can complain about buying used computer > hardware for considerably less than it cost when new. OKay, $500 or $1000 is alot less than the $4k+ these things cost when they were new, but $500 is *still* alot of money for most people, certainly for one who's just starting out. > The mythical "free Altair" which pops up again and again is > generally sold, even in "better than new" (properly assembled > and functional) condition for significantly less than what it > cost new, in "real" dollars. -- YES -- even on eBay! But e-bay makes the difference between 'easily affordable' and 'hopelessly out of reach'. > The typical PDP8 owned by persons in this particular interest group > were certainly not purchased for what they cost new, even in inflated > dollars, so I really can't see what the complaint is. The complaint is that what was once easily within reach, may not be in the future . . . > Sure, some people are able, and, some, misguided though they may > seem to be, even willing to pay more than I think they should for > a given item. To them, I sell what I can. No matter how inexpensive, I does cost *something* to do this hobby afterall; so . . . > In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned > off at $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and > that was in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy > bar. As I said, that's still alot of money. The cool thing about this hobby was that you didn't need alot to get cool stuff. That's starting to change. > I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for > $5 each, functionally tested and aligned, plus the estimated cost of > packaging and shipping, since I don't want more work on top of the > alignment and testing, estimated by Mailboxes, etc, which is where I'll > have them boxed and shipped. I've offered these same drives to people, > as is, for just the cost of shipping, and most wouldn't pay even for > the shipping. Now see, this is what I've been talking about. You supply a scarce commodity (in working condition I might add) for a reasonable price. You are actively trying to make a contribution to our hobbyist community. > When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. > The last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to me, > a typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the > same, and a terminal cost $750. Yep. Big money. Definitely not something you do casually. BY 1993 though, you could get these for next to nothing. Suddenly, you could persue the hobby you couldn't afford ten years before. > If people wanted more than that for these devices, even though they > were in perfectly functional and cosmetically perfect condition, I could > understand the complaints. I won't be convinced that the prices being paid at > auction, publicity or not, for "old, used, obsolete" computers or component > are unreasonable until someone shows me a similarly pristine '55 > Thunderbird that's going unsold because its price is over half what it cost new. Well, automobile collecting is definitely a rich-man's hobby; which sure leaves me out. I just find it painful to see our hobby go the same way. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

25 years, 5 months

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test-drb July 1999