Hi Scott:
In a message dated 6/30/99 7:04:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
scott(a)saskatoon.com writes:
> > Other than the Timex/Sinclairs, what's the cheapest machine which was
> > available in 1982 that I could have used to learn BASIC and assembler
and
> > machine code -- at home?
>
> VIC-20. I bought mine for $600CDN in either 1981 or 1982 (not sure)
My point exactly -- in '82 $100 US was no sweat, but $500 US was more than I
could afford. So, my choice, again, was crap computer or no computer.
> I hope this doesn't really sway the argument either way. I'm really
> neutral on the subject. Some people collect PDP-8s, some people collect
> what's 'popular', as for me, I'm still looking for a VIC-1540 because I
> could never afford one back in the early 80s.
And some of us are sentimental old fools who just collect for purely sappy
reasons. In Feb '99, I hadn't seen or thought about a Timex/Sinclair for 13
years. One day I found the manual while cleaning out a closet (computer long
since lost or given away). I did a web search and was _floored_ to find an
intensely active international user community still supporting these critters.
This led me to another discovery: development of the ZX81 platform
continues. Examples are: bumping the tape transfer rate from native 300 bps
to 4800 bps _using_software_. Efficient BASIC and FORTH compilers. Hi-res
graphics utilizing non-volatile memory (the ZX81 inventor, Sir Clive
Sinclair, repeatedly stated that this was impossible). IDE hard drive and
floppy drive i/fs. RAM expansion to 1 MB. I.e., developments by users which
go completely beyond what was originally imagined by the makers of the ZX81.
Sincere question: is this also the case with the larger machines which are
being collected/restored? Has anyone figured out how to connect (for
example) a Snappy to a PERQ? No disrespect intended, as I have nothing but
admiration for folks who take the huge amount of time & trouble to revive a
PDP-8 or 370, but it appears to me (and I'm new here, so don't clobber me too
badly) that "big" classic computer collectors take pride in returning a
machine to its original condition, whereas the ZX81 crowd is by and large
more interested in "how can I make this thing act more like a 'real'
computer."
Anyway, when I began to collect them, I had no idea they were "popular."
> Also, back to the question above, I think by 1982 we might also have had
> the Atari400. The C64 must have been around this time too. Probably the
> Coco as well. Really, 1982 is pretty close to the start of the 8bit
> explosion.
CoCo I'm not sure of (without checking), 400 & C64 yes. But, all of these
sold for many times the cost of a ZX81. Additionally, none of the above have
that perfect wedge shape, which really does make a perfect door-stop. ;>)
Regards & thanks for your input,
Glen Goodwin
A Fledgling Collector
0/0
Thanks Dallas, I have forwarded this to the classiccmp mailing list, for
those Commodore enthusiasts.
Anyone interested, get back to me or Dallas and we will hook you up with
the originator, Otto Brandt.
Kevin
At 07:33 PM 99/07/01 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi Kevin .. a forwarded message which you might be interested in:
>
>
>>From : Otto Brandt
>To : Dallas Hinton
>Subj : Log-off comment
>
>Would you or anyone you know be interested in Commodore equipt, eg
>1571, 1581 floppies, wide carriage printer, CBM 128, color monitor mostly
>working (some keys and contacts might have oxide problems due to lack of use)
>I am asking for a friend
>Cheers, Dallas
>
>
>
---
Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD
mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca
That's quite correct. It was a stupid, Stupid, STUPID plan exhausting air
>from the PC and drawing air through all the front-loading devices, e.g disk
drives, etc. That prevented a nice sensible filtering scheme like many
people have implemented by adding a fan to the PSU after reversing the fan
that's in there. They sandwich a filter between the fans to offset the head
loss due to the filter. This keeps the power supply components much
cleaner, as well as keeping the dust from settling so quickly on internal
components. The cooling is substantially improved and the dust accumulation
is decimated. All this extends the life of not only the power supply, but
the active components in the PC as well, as the heat transfer is more
efficient when laminar flow at the component surfaces isn't hampered by dust
most of the time.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: PC form factor
><I'm wondering: was the IBM PC the first machine with PSU in the rear
><right, drives in the front right, motherboard in rear left, or did they
><borrow this design from someone else?
>
>I don't think it was borrowed as much as there are few choices when
>you put most of the meat on one card. Packaging hardware is an
>older art than the PC.
>
>Personally it was a horrid layout with poor airflow for cooling.
>
>Allison
>
<get running, irrespective of the associated problems. Suggestions abound,
<of course, but solid help from experienced users is scarce because there
<weren't many.
Even then the suggestions would involve mods that some may be too timid
to undertake.
Altair in the s100 realm is the worst first machine to tackle. The IMSAI
is a stable machine next to it.
<What I want to know is why a beginner would want to run old hardware if he
<doesn't know anything about hardware in general and the general class of
<hardware with which he's dealing in particular. I can understand it if he
It's called clue impaired, they assembled a PC and they like you said think
S100 or maybe a Straight -8 should be trivial as it's from the dark ages
when they didn't have complicated stuff.
<Why do you suppose this is?
If you have a good answer, write a book. ;) Personally I believe it's
a total lack of knowledge and therefore they don't have the first clue
many of the early hobby machines of the altair ilk were "engineers toys"
or at least damm sharp techie types that werent afraid to read a few books.
Look at COMP.OS.CPM and you have someone looking for z80 data in electronic
form, one wonders if a library is near his home.
I will not speak of the damage done by the unknowing that cant solder either
or think a hotter iron will help the solder stick.
Allison
If anyone feels like helping this fellow out, please reply directly.
Thanks!
-=-=- <break> -=-=-
On Thu, 01 Jul 1999 22:16:34 +0200, in comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc you wrote:
>>From: Dennis Mulleneers <dennis.mulleneers(a)wxs.nl>
>>Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
>>Subject: Looking for REAL old parts (IBM 5155 + 5170)
>>Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 22:16:34 +0200
>>Organization: Planet Internet
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>>Xref: news1.jps.net comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc:436
>>
>>Hi there,
>>
>>I'm looking for some parts to restore some old IBM PC's (for my
>>collection)...
>>
>>IBM 5155:
>>- original screws (those blue colored internal screws)
>>- original backplates (6 pcs, to cover the holes of the exp. slots)
>>- TWO ORIGINAL 5.25" inch diskdrives (360Kb Half Height. I tink they're
>>black)
>>
>>IBM 5170:
>>- original screws to close the case (the five big hexheaded ones)
>>- original cork "feet" for the case
>>- also about 7 pcs of the backplates to cover the holes of the exp.
>>slots
>>
>>I hope someone can get me these things.....TIA
>>
>>Dennis :-)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho,
Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech [dot] com
Web: http://www.bluefeathertech.com
"...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object,
event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."
Hey Hans!
In a message dated 7/1/99 2:56:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de writes:
> P.P.S.: and speaking of _great_ ideas without big impact (beside
> technology) - I'm still looking for a well maintained,
> but cheap C-5
You really know your Sinclairs! A C5? Really??? I'm too old to push the
pedals when going uphill . . .
BTW, thanks for the nice defense of the Sinclair line and its international
clones. Did you know that a Spectrum clone is still being manufactured in
Russia?
Regards,
Glen Goodwin
0/0
sounds like a quote from me . . . the mouse I got back in '82 or so was, in
fact a SUN mouse. It used TTL levels rather than RS-232, but the optical
pad was the same I was later used to seeing at the SUN workstations.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: Article about collecting in Antique Trader.#
>
>
>Glenatacme(a)aol.com wrote:
>>
>> > I was given my first Mouse Systems
>> > Optical Mouse back in '82.
>>
>> That reminds me, I have a functional one from about '85 -- maybe I'll put
it
>> on Ebay:
>>
>> Genuine Collectors Item -- RARE pre-Windows optical mouse
>
>I understand the optical pads for the Sun Mouse Systems mice are somewhat
>difficult to find. Is it possible the pads are the same?
I was acquainted with a couple of guys from the Niwot plant (IBM) who were
temporarily assigned to BOCA for the PC development effort. The company
actually gathered quite a number of hobbyists to see what information they
could get from them. Apparently they didn't listen too well. Back in '81,
when the PC came out, it was pretty widely believed that IBM had gotten the
form factor for its cards and the notion of packaging for I/O in the way
they used from the Apple-][. It (Apple) was, after all, the most successful
single company in the personal computer market and seizing a major share of
the desktop market. Their approach wasn't a bad one from the I/O
convenience standpoint.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: PC form factor
>On Thu, 1 Jul 1999, William Donzelli wrote:
>
>> > Since most folks are right-handed, having the drives on the right is
pretty
>> > reasonable. The physical design was allegedly patterened after the
>> > pple-][ whose market IBM coveted.
>>
>> I really doubt that they looked at Apple for the design. IBM has pretty
>> much been on top of the pile as far as ergonomics and ease of maintenance
>> since the 1950s. Sure, the PC is not exactly their shining moment, but it
>> does show some thought for a design with a low production cost in mind.
>
>Acually, there are rumors abound that IBM modeled the PC after the
>successful Apple ][. But, rhey are just rumors and anecdotes passed
>around like those in Dick's message.
>
>Sellam Alternate e-mail:
dastar(a)siconic.com
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
>Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out.
>
> Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0!
> See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details!
> [Last web site update: 05/25/99]
>
Hello Richard:
In a message dated 7/1/99 7:47:06 PM Eastern Daylight Time, edick(a)idcomm.com
writes:
> I was given my first Mouse Systems
> Optical Mouse back in '82.
That reminds me, I have a functional one from about '85 -- maybe I'll put it
on Ebay:
Genuine Collectors Item -- RARE pre-Windows optical mouse
;>)
Glen Goodwin
0/0
Hey Tony:
In a message dated 7/1/99 5:13:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes:
> I started on an MK14. It took me many years to figure out that darn
> manual. And the hardware design was somewhat clueless (hint : A 74157 is
> a multiplexer. A 74175 is a latch. Using the former as a latch is
> possible, but not a good idea if you want to avoid timing problems. Guess
> what this machine did...)
What's really amazing about the MK14 design is that the original, which Clive
bought from one of his buddies, was never used. Your MK14 was in fact
designed by National Semi. They convinced Clive that it would be cheaper and
more efficient if the kit used more NS components, and they offered to
provide the design free, if he signed an exclusive contract.
Glen Goodwin
0/0
