test-drb July 1999

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

175 participants
662 discussions

1975 Dollars (was RE: State of the Hobby)

by edick＠idcomm.com

I think you have that backwards, sir. The present value of the 1975 dollar is $2.95, not the other way around. This is clearly just a misstatement, as you've interpreted it correctly in the subsequent statements of present value. This implies that when eBay facilitates an auction of an old Altair for $3000 it's $2500 lower than what a new one cost. That's not so bad, considering that the original was probably not built up and not functional. I note that the last one I saw for sale there hadn't even gotten a bid from $3k to start after 4 or 5 days. It would appear the guys who buy these aren't all totally stupid out there. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Kai Kaltenbach <kaikal(a)MICROSOFT.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 12:17 PM Subject: 1975 Dollars (was RE: State of the Hobby) >I grabbed the Consumer Price Index history off the web, pasted into Excel, >and applied the percentage changes cumulative from 1975. > >One 1998 dollar = $2.95 in 1975 dollars (ouch, those Carter administration >years! Thank goodness for Greenspan) > >Therefore, an assembled Altair 8800 with 4x2K static RAM, serial, parallel, >cassette, and bus expansion, $1880 in 1975 dollars, would be the equivalent >of $5546 today. > >An Apple Lisa base configuration ($9995 in 1983 dollars) would be $16,169 >today. > >Kai > > -----Original Message----- >From: John Foust [mailto:jfoust@threedee.com] >Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 10:45 AM >To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >Subject: Re: State of the Hobby > >At 11:02 AM 7/1/99 -0600, you wrote: >> >>In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned off at >>$565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, and that was >>in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a candy bar. > >I suppose there must be a web site, somewhere, that would let you enter >a date and a US dollar amount, and would show you the equivalent value >in today's dollars, accounting for actual inflation, etc. in the >intervening years. > >Which reminds me, when I was in high school, we sold candy bars to >fund the purchase of a few K of RAM for the IMSAI as well as a floppy drive. > >>I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 >each, > >Similarly, you'd think there would be a web site somewhere to >remind people of the rapid devaluation of the value of computer >equipment - say, perhaps the flip side of Moore's Law, that shows >how simply purchasing and opening the box of a new computer causes >a significant drop in value, followed by subsequent halvings of >resale value every six months, until it quickly reaches the >"nuisance fee" level mentioned above, where the cost of shipping >and packing seems to exceed the street price. > >- John

24 years, 10 months

State of the Hobby

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com> wrote: > At 11:02 AM 7/1/99 -0600, you wrote: > >I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for $5 > each, Hmm... Whatcha got? I'm looking for an 8" drive that I can attach to a PeeCee to read/write my old disks. I do have a 1/2-height drive that came with a DataRAM PDP-11 clone (along with an ST506 interface that emulates an RL02, but with no docs). Do you have any +12v/+5v 8" floppies, or only 24v-motor ones? > Similarly, you'd think there would be a web site somewhere to > remind people of the rapid devaluation of the value of computer > equipment - say, perhaps the flip side of Moore's Law, that shows > how simply purchasing and opening the box of a new computer causes > a significant drop in value, followed by subsequent halvings of > resale value every six months, until it quickly reaches the > "nuisance fee" level mentioned above, where the cost of shipping > and packing seems to exceed the street price. The general trend I've seen is 10% of MSRP at five years old, 1% at ten years old. There are exceptions, but it's a good rule of thumb (Think about what was new and selling for big bucks in 1989, then figure out what Goodwill is getting for it right now, for a comparison). In 1984-1985, a PC-AT was (decked out with 40Mb disk and a meg or two of RAM) $5K. Ten years later, they were well below $100 and frequently spotted at $50. There's the 1%. It's not absolute, but it gives me an idea about what to pay for an item, Altairs and Apple I's notwithstanding. -ethan _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

24 years, 10 months

State of the Hobby

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well, just to put things in proportion, today, you can go to Best Buy and get a 300+ MHz P-II computer with an 8gb HDD and 256K of RAM, etc, for $600 including a nice 17" monitor. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey l Kaneko <jeff.kaneko(a)juno.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 12:24 PM Subject: Re: State of the Hobby >On Thu, 1 Jul 1999 11:02:51 -0600 "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> >writes: >> This argument is getting to where it's pretty silly. > >PLease, hear me out on this . . . > >> I don't see how anyone can complain about buying used computer >> hardware for considerably less than it cost when new. > >OKay, $500 or $1000 is alot less than the $4k+ these things >cost when they were new, but $500 is *still* alot of money for >most people, certainly for one who's just starting out. > >> The mythical "free Altair" which pops up again and again is >> generally sold, even in "better than new" (properly assembled >> and functional) condition for significantly less than what it >> cost new, in "real" dollars. -- YES -- even on eBay! > >But e-bay makes the difference between 'easily affordable' and >'hopelessly out of reach'. > >> The typical PDP8 owned by persons in this particular interest group >> were certainly not purchased for what they cost new, even in inflated >> dollars, so I really can't see what the complaint is. > >The complaint is that what was once easily within reach, may not >be in the future . . . > >> Sure, some people are able, and, some, misguided though they may >> seem to be, even willing to pay more than I think they should for >> a given item. To them, I sell what I can. > >No matter how inexpensive, I does cost *something* to do this hobby >afterall; so . . . > >> In a recent auction on eBay, a MITS Floppy Disk Drive was auctioned >> off at $565. "WOW!" you may say, but that unit cost $1300 when new, >and >> that was in dollars that were a DOLLAR, and not just the price of a >candy >> bar. > >As I said, that's still alot of money. The cool thing about this >hobby was that you didn't need alot to get cool stuff. That's >starting to change. > >> I'm presently in the process of selling off excess 8" floppy drives for > >> $5 each, functionally tested and aligned, plus the estimated cost of >> packaging and shipping, since I don't want more work on top of the >> alignment and testing, estimated by Mailboxes, etc, which is where I'll > >> have them boxed and shipped. I've offered these same drives to people, > >> as is, for just the cost of shipping, and most wouldn't pay even for >> the shipping. > >Now see, this is what I've been talking about. You supply a scarce >commodity (in working condition I might add) for a reasonable price. >You are actively trying to make a contribution to our hobbyist community. > >> When I bought my first pair of 8" floppy drives they cost $675 each. >> The last pair I bought cost $470 each in 1981. In 1980, it seems to >me, >> a typical S-100 CPU cost $250. A floppy controller cost about the >> same, and a terminal cost $750. > >Yep. Big money. Definitely not something you do casually. BY 1993 >though, you could get these for next to nothing. Suddenly, you could >persue the hobby you couldn't afford ten years before. > >> If people wanted more than that for these devices, even though they >> were in perfectly functional and cosmetically perfect condition, I >could >> understand the complaints. I won't be convinced that the prices being >paid at >> auction, publicity or not, for "old, used, obsolete" computers or >component >> are unreasonable until someone shows me a similarly pristine '55 >> Thunderbird that's going unsold because its price is over half what it >cost new. > >Well, automobile collecting is definitely a rich-man's hobby; which >sure leaves me out. I just find it painful to see our hobby go >the same way. > >Jeff > > >___________________________________________________________________ >Get the Internet just the way you want it. >Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! >Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

24 years, 10 months

Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by peter.pachla＠vectrex.freeserve.co.uk

Hi Glen, >I _will_ name them -- I work with Windows 9x every day, and it's a >horrible travesty, a poor excuse for an operating system.... Don't get me started on WIn'95....I've had several months of headaches caused by THAT OS since I upgraded my PC. >....It saddens me to see that people accept this crap.... Quite, I'd be using Linux right now if I could get versions of the software I need to use for it. >Why do the Brits hate the BBC Micro? Didn't know we did....I love the machine. My favourite after the Atari 8-bits, great for hacking around on and devoid of the major design compromises that made hacking my old ZX-81 such a pain in the butt (I wouldn't care if I never saw another Sinclair machine as long as I live). <Minis> > Please advise, as this may be my next foray into collecting, if I can find >one and move it without a forklift . . . Minis come in all shapes and sizes, I'm concentrating on minis and workstations myself now (getting rid of just about all of my micros save for the Ataris, a BBC Master, a CBM P-500, a CBM 8296-D and an HP-150). You can get nice compact systems if you look around, especially when it comes to PDP-11s and (Micro)VAXen. In fact I picked up an IBM mini last week, though it's probably too new to be on topic in here, an AS/400 model 9404 which is not too much bigger than a pair of PCs in full tower cases.... TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla(a)virgin.net | peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla(a)wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk --

24 years, 10 months

What is a Sirius?

by peter.pachla＠vectrex.freeserve.co.uk

Hi Pete, > Just been offered one. Has anyone any idea what >it is? Lovely old machine, designed by Chuck Peddle IIRC. It's also known as the "Victor 9000". Usually runs MS-Dos, though CP/M-86 was also available. Supplied with either 128K or 256K RAM on the motherboard and expandable to 768K via a plug in card. The floppy only model had twin 5.25" floppy drives. They used standard 360K floppies but could write up to 1.2Mb to each disc (GCR encoding and variable rotational speed), there may have been a model which used 600K single sided drives too but don't quote me. The HD model had one of the floppies replaced by an internal hard drive. I think 10Mb was the biggest they were ever shipped with but, IIRC, the controller would handle a 20Mb drive. Interestingly the machine used an MFM drive, connected to a SASI to MFM bridge card, in turn connected to a SASI interface card which sat in one of the expansion slots. It had lots of neat features, such as the built in CODEC (great sound for it's day) and the ability to adjust the display's contrast and brightness directly >from the keyboard. Yeah....I've got one, but without a version of DOS that will see the hard drive it's just sat in a corner right now. TTFN - Pete. -- Hardware & Software Engineer. Sound Engineer. Collector of Arcade Machines, Games Consoles & Obsolete Computers (esp DEC) peter.pachla(a)virgin.net | peter.pachla(a)vectrex.freeserve.co.uk | peter.pachla(a)wintermute.free-online.co.uk | www.wintermute.free-online.co.uk --

24 years, 10 months

What is a Sirius?

by Anthony.Eros＠COMPAQ.com

It was also marketed as the Victor 9000. It was an 8086-based box which ran DOS and CP/M, but wasn't really IBM-compatible. Hi-res, monochrome graphics and a (usually) 10 mb hard drive. The system was designed by Chuck Peddle, who I think was involved with the design of the 6800 and 6502 microprocessors. -- Tony > ---------- > From: Pete Joules[SMTP:peter@joules.enterprise-plc.com] > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 6:25 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: What is a Sirius? > > Just been offered one. Has anyone any idea what it is? > > Regards > Pete >

24 years, 10 months

LSI-11

by yoda＠isr.ist.utl.pt

Does anyone have any info concerning LSI-11 cards? It seems they are single-board versions of the PDP-11 CPU. Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt> *** Teaching Assistant and MSc. Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, Portugal *** PGP Public Key available on my homepage: *** http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Key fingerprint = 0C 0A 25 58 46 CF 14 99 CF 9C AF 9E 10 02 BB 2A

24 years, 10 months

Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hi Tony: In a message dated 6/30/99 10:34:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > There's little point in working out how to link > a modern laser printer to a PERQ when you can get the original Canon > interface card and hook up a CX-VDO. Good point -- why reinvent the wheel? The thrill for many ZX81ers is sticking wings on an oxcart and watching it fly (erratically, and for a short time . . .) > And other peripherals do get designed. Like a chording keyboard, a way to > boot PERQ microcode from a PC (I _must_ find time to finish that!), etc > > Trivial hacks, like replacing 8" drives with 5.25"(1.2M) or 3.5" (1.44M) > drives are common. Great! IMHO, advancement of a platform is as important as preservation of that platform. > \begin{tongue-in-cheek} > Of course if you start out with a real computer... > \end{tongue-in-cheek} Yeah, I know, but it was my first computer, and I still love the damn thing. If it weren't for my exposure to the ZX81 (having no college education) I'd probably be managing a burger stand somewhere, instead of maintaining my lofty position as a _highly_paid_computer_professional_ and _independant_small_business_owner_. Thanks for all of your help, Glen Goodwin 0/0

24 years, 10 months

Strange PDP card available

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

This is an adac corp. model 1664ATTL double-wide board. I have no idea what buss this is for, but I think it is some kind of data aquisition thingie. Have no idea if it works; anybody want it? $3 plus postage. Jeff ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

24 years, 10 months

Article about collecting in Antique Trader.

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hello William: In a message dated 6/30/99 10:33:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, aw288(a)osfn.org writes: > With big machines, tinkering was generally frowned upon, especially with > the hardware. I'll bet it was! I once caused an uproar at BP's MIS Dept. over some code I wrote to batch transaction records from PCs to VAXen via ATT Mail ... nobody told me the VAX would puke if it encountered a null in a data record . . . and that was just _software_ . . . taught me a lesson: never rock the "big iron" . . . But nowadays, do those members of the group who have "big" computers out in their barns experiment with them? Or just try to restore and preserve them? After all, nothing (probably) really depends on the machine in your basement . . . so no real chance of a summary execution . . . just curious . . . Regards, Glen Goodwin 0/0

24 years, 10 months

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test-drb July 1999