test-drb October 1998

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

175 participants
1141 discussions

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> >unclear as to how to translate 77-track x 34 (256byte) sector media > >to 80-track x 18 (512byte) sector media. I know it will fit fine -- > >whether it can be used directly if an adapter is made to connect the > >new drives to the old hardware I don't know > > Again, this is well discussed in Q16 ("Can I use the newer floppy > drives on my old machine?") of the CP/M FAQ. See > > http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/CPM-faq/faq.html > And I'm sorry but this was a CPM FAQ not an > 8' fd faq. Much less a well-discussed one. I disagree. In between Q14 and Q16 of the CP/M FAQ, and the reference to Sydex's tools, everything you need to know to make images from physical floppies and physical floppies from images on a PC-clone is in the FAQ. Q16 will even tell you how to use a 5.25" or 3.5" floppy on your Model II. > FAQs were created to answer > repetitious questions not to eliminate the need for particular group > discussion of the theme. But it *is* a FAQ in many other forums, and has been repeatedly discussed on CLASSICCMP in the past, as well. > Reminds me of the old guilds where smithy methods > should not be discussed among the profane. I don't remember you posting > objections to any other thread. Why this ? I'm not objecting to the thread; I'm simply pointing the group towards an already extremely comprehensive source of information, because this is a better practice than repeating stuff that most folks here have already seen many times before. Tim.

26 years, 1 month

64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> I therefore see address buses growing at 16 bits every 30 years. That's >>> just over a bit every 2 years - slower than I expected but not much. >>> Someone (I forget who) said that memory chips double in capacity every >>> 18 months. This would give 16 bits in 24 years. >> Interesting szenario, especialy when connected to the Mores Law >> (didn't he tell this regarding integration ?). > Thanks. That's the one I'm thinking of - the amount of memory you get on > the same area of silicon doubles every 18 months. Basicly I think its about integrations and transistor equivalents, but this is just linear to the size of memorys. In fact, to come back to the original question, Arfon just took doubling of address space and doubbling of data bus width for the same thing, but in fact they are two different functions - widening data bus is linear, while widening address bus is to the square (sorry, my mathematical english just stops here). This means doubble the data bus just doubbles the date transfer rate (the only thing the data bus is needed for) or w'=w+w. But doubbling the address bus is putting the address range (and thats what the address bus is for) to the square or r'=r*r. So, while a 256 or 512 bit data bus is usefull (and already in use in main frames - only called data path), even a 128 Bit address bus is just nonsense. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

26 years, 1 month

Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by K.J.Whitehead＠massey.ac.nz

Well this list used to be good, now it has degenerated into 80%+ noise. I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers What does a modern college education have to do with old computers I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. Go back and re-read what this list was supposed to be about. 99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. k.j.whitehead(a)massey.ac.nz Keith Whitehead Electronics Technician Electronics Services Institute of Fundamental Sciences Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand 5301

26 years, 1 month

TRS-80 CoCo for sale

by siconic＠jasmine.psyber.com

Please contact the SELLER. I am only passing this along. Reply to: jonathow(a)mounet.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:32:38 -0400 From: Jonathan Owens <jonathow(a)mounet.com> Subject: Re: TRS-80 It is a TRS-80 Color Computer, model number 26-3004A. It is in good condition, everything still works the way its supposed to. It has jacks for cassette, serial I/O, and joystick. I think it has 1K of memory, I'd have to check to be sure. I have no additional parts for it. I received it as a gift from my uncle over a decade ago. I've not used it much, it is an interesting little tool. I learned quite a bit about BASIC programming from it! Anyway, I would be interested in selling it. I appreciate your interest. Thank you for your time. Sincerely Jonathan Owens --- Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web page update: 09/28/98]

26 years, 1 month

TRS-80 Model II stuff!

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> Speaking of which, I have a complete Model II in storage; anyone > interested? Please remember when posting to the list to say where things are! If it's in the UK, Yes please I am definitely interested. If it's elsewhere in Europe, Yes, I am possibly interested. If it's not in Europe, Yes, I'd love one, but I can't afford the shipping. Philip.

26 years, 1 month

Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

Coming from someone with a 24-line signature, ragging other people about appropriate mailing list behavior strikes me as just a bit hypocritical. Every time 1 or 2 people make noise about "noise" on the list, Sam jumps on his "This list needs a moderator and I'm the man for the job" soapbox and everybody grumbles about leaving until he settles down; I don't really see the point. Judging by the relatively small number of complaints, I'd have to guess that most of the users (myself included) don't have a problem with the way the list is operating. I typically read the mail from this list in batches, as I have time; I use Forte Agent, and have a rule set up to sort messages from "classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu" into a seperate folder, just like I do the other mailing lists I'm on. That way, I don't have to wade through list messages to find my personal e-mail. I guess I'm with Max - if you want an encyclopedia, get one. I prefer to deal with my on-line friends and neighbors as whole people, not chopped up according to arbitrary criteria and stuffed into neat little pigeonholes just to keep a few anal-retentive people happy... > >If you want to talk about classic computing items posted to eBay, fine. >Z-80? That is absolutely on-topic. But, if you want to engage in a >seemingly endless public debate on the merits of the modern educational >system...I'm sorry. That simply is _not_ appropriate. Either is >gunsmithing, lathe building, snipers, or Star Trek theory. > >When this list is functioning as it should, I find it to be an incredible >resource. I only hope it can continue to be that. Perhaps it is time to >elect a moderator... > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!)

26 years, 1 month

More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

> You guys are really raining on my parade.... Sorry, but most is just physics. > I have looked at Z180's, Z380's and etc.... They are SLOW!!!!!! The > only availabe packaging for the Z380 is un-useable to me as a hobbist > (without a lot of headache.) Anything you need is a socket adaptor. > So, If some company would take the Z-bus (but with an (input/output) data > size set of bus control lines), Z-80 instruction set and match a DEC Alpha > performance (at a cheap price of-course), I would worship that company. > (Oh yes, I want a 64bit data bus and a 128bit address bus). Is this asking > for too much? Why can't we all just get along? Why not just take an Alpha if you want Alpha features ? And now tell me where you need 128 Bit address ? Just in case, even to fill a 64 Bit memory you need 4 GIG of mem thats just 4 grand ... and 128 Bit memory used ... oh unly 16,000,000,000,000 Dollar ... gee rich man > Since this is a dream: Just listen to Allison, she (now I know) already pointed it out: physics. > My thoughts are this: If I can find some REALLY SIMPLE mirco-controllers > that do just the basic microprocessor functions, Lets just assume you need only 4 cycles on your micro-controller to do the equivalent of an Z80 cycle (after all they are software controlled). this means a 400 MHz micro controller equals a 100 MHz Z80 with an sustaind rate of around 25 MIPS - thats just double to tripple the rate of an Z180 - not a big deal - and anything faster would require Memory with less than 10 nS access access time - and if you remember SDRAM design, there are some quirks to resolve - your simple Bus concept is dead. And speaking of timing - at 1GHz, a signal traveles less than 30 cm (or less than one foot if you like the ancient way). If you take just 500 MHz and lets say 1.4 ns of switching time, wireing at hobist level is impossible. just forget it - these speeds are only possible inside of chips - gee even chip designers have problem with the path inside the chip, and you want rant about using special socets ? > I can parallel them to make them read-in and intrepret Z-80 code. Paralell them - interleaved (pipelined) or even out of order execution ? Have you ever been involved ? O3 is the crudest thig one could imagine - you need 5 to 15 times the logic of the active components (ALU etc.) just to coordinate the concurent components. > I cannot see why massively populated microprocessors (like the PPC, Intel, > and DEC Alpha) can reach clock speeds of 600 Mcyc and a really simple (one > accumulator, bare instruction set) microcontroller can't exceed those speeds! Because they are ONE pice of silicon ? > If I got some of these micro-controllers and had two or three of them > reading in instructions ahead of execution (looking for branches) I could > do half of the job and speed up the through-put. What about taking an extreme simple CPU and try to think again on a simplified base - I would suggest the 1802 - one of the simpelest designs - less than 300 gate function as I remember. No complex math just addition no fancy OPs just minimal needs. And now try to think about O3 and parallel concepts at this simple base. > Then use several more u-controllers acting in parallel to actually do the > instruction execution. See above. > For math, a bunch of stinking fast memory locations acting as look-up tables. A one cycle ALU is still faster - and when using 64 or 128 bit math you need more ROM than available on earth. > Any ideas? Using hyperspace ? Gruss H. PS.: pleas notice, I got it on topic (1802) <g> -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

26 years, 1 month

Help -- pages from PDP11 Bus Handbook missing

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Hello, all: The "PDP11 Bus Handbook" is the next doc that I own that is next on the scanner bed (so to speak). I only have Xerox copies of the book, and the copy is missing pages 22 and 23. If someone has this book ( (c) 1979) and can either scan the missing pages or snail-mail copies of them to me, I'd appreciate it. As always, thanks. Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin!/CW7 - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of "classic" computers <========= reply separator ==========>

26 years, 1 month

PCjr with no disk drive?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

IBM 21xx series were PS/1 and current aptiva models. the earliest 21xx series i know about is the 2121 386sx types that had the power supply in the monitor. 2121 models do have a similar form factor though. i'll check at work and post back if i find anything. might be worth getting as it certainly wasnt an announced consumer product. david In a message dated 10/28/98 8:24:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time, dastar(a)ncal.verio.com writes: > I also saw what looked to be a very small IBM computer. It had all the > connectors on the back, for video, keyboard, printer. It also had two > 3.5" bays side by side in the front. The front cover was missing so I > couldn't get any model number off it (not even on the label on the > bottom). The only thing I saw on the label was "Type 2100". I'm thinking > it might be a PS/1 or something. It was really small, measuring about 12" > wide by 3" high by 12" deep. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic. > com

26 years, 1 month

PCjr with no disk drive?

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Has anyone ever seen (or heard of) an IBM PCjr with no internal disk drive, but instead a face plate covering the slot where the drive would go? I saw such a thing today and was curious if there were ever any PCjr's released without internal disk drives. Obviously this one was. The inside is rather bare as well. There is not the usual cards inside. I also saw what looked to be a very small IBM computer. It had all the connectors on the back, for video, keyboard, printer. It also had two 3.5" bays side by side in the front. The front cover was missing so I couldn't get any model number off it (not even on the label on the bottom). The only thing I saw on the label was "Type 2100". I'm thinking it might be a PS/1 or something. It was really small, measuring about 12" wide by 3" high by 12" deep. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98]

26 years, 1 month

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test-drb October 1998