test-drb October 1998

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

175 participants
1141 discussions

by Marty＠itgonline.com

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/28/98 10:56 AM Hmm... Looks like Sweet Sam decided that if he couldn't shout me down, he'd just slam the door in my face. What a guy! --- Return-Path: <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:21:11 PST Reply-To: listproc(a)u.washington.edu Sender: listproc(a)u.washington.edu From: University of Washington ListProcessor <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> To: bill_r(a)inetnebr.com Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN X-UIDL: ee07c31fcdb321395d34af85335a15b0 Dear user, your request UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP has been successfully processed. You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP (classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). Thank you for being with us. > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists5.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct28.105618.1767.73348; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:56:18 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id HAA18374; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:53:33 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id HAA60506 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:53:29 -0800 Received: from falcon.inetnebr.com (falcon.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.1]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id HAA29 424 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:53:28 -0800 Received: from mail.inetnebr.com (sentinel.walco.com [206.222.203.20]) by falcon.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA14454; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:53:27 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199810281553.JAA14454(a)falcon.inetnebr.com> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:55:39 -0600 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: bill_r(a)inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu, danjo(a)xnet.com X-Sender: bill_r(a)inetnebr.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

26 years, 1 month

eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...)

by cmcmanis＠freegate.com

Ok, I have to draw a line on this one Sam ... At 05:36 PM 10/27/98 -0800, Sam wrote: >Well, if the guy who bought the Atari 1200XL thinks he got fair market >value, I'm happy for him. But I don't want to have to pay some schlub >$600 for an Atari 1200XL the next time I see one go up for sale (luckily I >won't have to, I paid less than $5 for mine at a thrift store, and if I >want another I'll probably find it for around the same price). What that >guy thinks is a "fair price" does NOT equate to "fair market". There is a >huge distinction. There IS a huge distinction, there is no such thing as a "fair price." Its a myth, it don't exist, deal with it. If this "schlub" as you so affectionately refer to them knew about your thrift store (and I can guarantee you he will) then you won't find Atari's in thrift stores and you won't find them at swap meets and the _only_ way to get one will be to pay more than what some other "schlub" is willing to pay. And if the price is too rich for you then you won't own one. What's a "fair" price for a Picasso? a Rembrandt? That is exactly what a market IS and it is actually _incredibly_ fair. Without external intervention it will settle on a price that people are willing to pay. To use the 1200XL example.. Word will get around that a 1200XL goes for 600 on Ebay, so enterprising folks who have been in thrift stores will start scrounging around for them, and then they will all put them up on eBay and the large number of them will cause the price to come down, probably way down but it may not get down to a level you are comfortable paying. For heaven's sake, you think there is a "fair" price for a house in Silicon Valley? Of course not, the MARKET supports a median house price that is well above what any ordinary mortal could pay for, but only because there are enough people willing to pay that price. When people said, "This is f__ ridicululous!" in 1991 guess what, houses stayed on the market until the price came down. When I bought my house I offered nearly 100K UNDER the asking price, got the house and it STILL lost 15K in value over the next couple of years! Now its going back up, great, but that will change when the guys from eBay who got rich on the IPO have all bought there houses. Economics, not just an idea it's a discipline that actually predicts these things pretty accurately... --Chuck

26 years, 1 month

Noise levels have become deaf

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

Hmm... Looks like Sweet Sam decided that if he couldn't shout me down, he'd just slam the door in my face. What a guy! --- Return-Path: <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:21:11 PST Reply-To: listproc(a)u.washington.edu Sender: listproc(a)u.washington.edu From: University of Washington ListProcessor <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> To: bill_r(a)inetnebr.com Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN X-UIDL: ee07c31fcdb321395d34af85335a15b0 Dear user, your request UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP has been successfully processed. You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP (classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). Thank you for being with us. > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!)

26 years, 1 month

TRS-80 Model II stuff!

by MPritchard＠EnsembleStudios.com

Very much my fault there. Sorry. I'm in Dallas, Tx, USA. Specifically, the machine is in my "garage of doom" in North Garland. -Matt Pritchard Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com [SMTP:Philip.Belben@pgen.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 1:38 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: TRS-80 Model II stuff! > > > > > > > Speaking of which, I have a complete Model II in storage; anyone > > interested? > Please remember when posting to the list to say where things are! > > If it's in the UK, Yes please I am definitely interested. > > If it's elsewhere in Europe, Yes, I am possibly interested. > > If it's not in Europe, Yes, I'd love one, but I can't afford the shipping. > > Philip. > > > >

26 years, 1 month

Noise levels have become deaf

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

> >On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: >> That's OK, Bill. There's no need for me to send any particular response >> to this public display of social retardation, other than to acknowledge > ****** >> that you are seriously off-topic and really need to shut up. > >Better put the filter on your Email Bill !!! > >> But if it'll make you feel better, then I'll be the better man and let you >> have the last word publicly. > ******** > >Oops I better put the Sam Slammer back in too! > >> If it'll get you to finally calm down then it'll be well worth it. Go >> ahead and reply to this message with another off-topic tantrum and I >> shall not spew a word about it. > >I a speachless - and apprehensive..... > >> You're welcome. >> >> On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Bill Richman wrote: >> > No, it was intentionally posted to the list. I'm tired of Sam shutting >> > down reasonable discussions by declaring them "off-topic" while in the >> > same breath getting the last word, while simultaneously insulting people >> > for no good reason. I've got a half dozen e-mails filled with Sam's >> > bile and hate from the last time I dared defend someone's right to an >> > opinion other than his. I just thought it might be educational for >> > people to see the festering hatred and insecurity that's exposed when >> > you scratch Sam's surface. That is, of course, unless he decides to be >> > a pussy and flame me in e-mail again. (Fair warning, Sam - anything you >> > e-mail me is going on this list for everyone to see and judge for >> > themselves.) > >Well - that last time Sam 'went overboard' I couldn't shut HIM up until >I threatened to go to his VCF and hand out printed copies of his emails >to the attendees 8-) > >Maybe we should get together and do a 'book' on him! > >I will say that he gets really sweet right before a VCF and then goes >power hungry with the list afterwards... but then everything settles >down to a nice dull roar. Until about March when he knows he has to >start being nice again - he will have one more flare up before Mr. Nice >Guy has to come out and play again. I have gotten used to it. Try to >hang in there Bill. > >BC > > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!)

26 years, 1 month

Replying to people (was TRS-80 model II)

by MPritchard＠EnsembleStudios.com

Just a note to people: when you e-mail someone directly; don't use an email-address that has something like "your name <yournameDIE.YOU(a)SPAMMERmydomain.com>" in it. Using Microsoft Outlook (which I do), it just shows <your name> with the SMTP portion hidden. After the mail bounces, I'm less inclined to type the whole message again and edit your user name. So that reply to you offering to sell you the complete Altair for $50.... well, you didn't get it. I mean, it's a direct e-mail, not the mailing list. If you think I am going to spam you... come on. Ok, now that, I've jumped all over Arfon, I have to say it's nothing personal and I apologize in advance. it's just not the first time that it's happened. it's just that I don't even see anything until the mail bounces. -Matt Pritchard

26 years, 1 month

Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by roblwill＠usaor.net

> > "Why can't I just shut up?" Fuck you, Sammy boy. With a rusty iron > pipe. _Anybody_ else can voice an opinion here, but for some reason > _you_ decided you don't _like_ me (what is it - did I neglect to kiss > your ass when I came in?), so as soon as I say a _word_, you find a > reason to end the discussion because it's "off-topic" (nevermind the 5 > or 6 times you contributed to most of the threads in question before I > said anything), or you accuse me of "fanning the flames" when done > nothing but voice an opinion like everyone else has been. What total > and utter bullshit. You really need some Prozac, or a shrink to help > you work through those left-over potty-training issues from childhood. > (Or did you forget all the obscene, abusive, highly personal e-mails you > sent me the last time I forgot to agree with your opinion? I've got a > special folder that messages from you are filtered into - it's called > "Asshole". I had thought that you were done with the childish name > calling and personal attacks, but I guess not.) What would your public > think - the man who organized SamFest '98 (errr... excuse me... VCF) - > calling people assholes and telling them to shut up - all because they > voice an opinion about a list they have an interest in? Not very > attractive behavior, Sambo. Not very attractive at all. > Look, I don't know if this was supposed to be a private mail, or not, but WHATEVER it is, it's DEFINATELY OFF-TOPIC! I really think I'd have to side with Sam on this one. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************

26 years, 1 month

KEITH, WE HARDLY KNEW YOU was: Noise levels (yak yak)

by Marty＠itgonline.com

Dear Mr. Whitehead, You could have used some discretion like most of us on this list and just read the strings you found worthwhile. Instead you insult virtually everyone on the list and have created yet another flame war which has no end in sight. Please be advised to re-read the Classiccmp FAQ which describes how to unsubscribe and 'don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.' Sincerely, Marty Mintzell ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/26/98 3:21 PM Well this list used to be good, now it has degenerated into 80%+ noise. I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers What does a modern college education have to do with old computers I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. Go back and re-read what this list was supposed to be about. 99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. k.j.whitehead(a)massey.ac.nz Keith Whitehead Electronics Technician Electronics Services Institute of Fundamental Sciences Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand 5301 ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct26.152119.1767.72634; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:21:19 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id MAA12116; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:18:29 -0800 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA50832 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:17:27 -0800 Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with SMTP id MAA099 85 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:17:24 -0800 Received: from [130.123.73.41] (actually px-mac26) by cc-server9.massey.ac.nz with SMTP(PP); Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:15:54 +1300 Message-Id: <l03010d00b25a94702926(a)[130.123.73.41]> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:14:32 +1200 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Keith Whitehead <K.J.Whitehead(a)massey.ac.nz> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

26 years, 1 month

ebay

by franke＠sbs.de

>>Just a NO. Maybe I'm stupid and old fashionated, >>but sniping is just not possible. > Yes it is. If there's something I really want, I generally have two > browser windows open -- one to do frequent reloads on, and one with my info > already entered and ready to submit. :)))) You should thank GOd (or alt least your ISP) for your line, every day twice. Especialy when it's 2 pm to 4 am over here, it's impossible to do things like that. And for your extension by x minutes - thats just the same problem - only the one with enuff time to stay online and fast lines will be able to participate. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

26 years, 1 month

64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< So, while a 256 or 512 bit data bus is usefull (and < already in use in main frames - only called data path), < even a 128 Bit address bus is just nonsense. There is some truth to this. DEC went to 64bits as they knew 32bits were not enough for some applications. They were also trying to design for the next 20years to repeat the life of the VAX (32bits). Now, having a large address space isn't completely about filling it. It's about having addressing modes and arithmetic adaquate to deal with large data objects. In the 32bit model 4gb is the limit without thrashing. Those limits was exceeded by disk farms with tens of Gigabytes of databases and solving large mathmatical models. The current example would be doing windows graphics programming (1280x1024x16m) using only 16bit pointers, you do a lot of thrashing to get the the next 64k chunk and there will be a lot of them! That was the problem that spawned the VAX! Brief history lesson: The PDP11 was reachhing the point where a fully filled machine (4mb of ram) could not process in one lump the large problems like weather models or MRI data. It was NOT a speed issue it was 16 bits made for too small a data pointer. Also doing 32/64bit math required more steps (or FP hardware) as the registers were all 16bit. So to add two 24bit numbers on a PDP-11 required multiple steps and that was a speed impact. Going to 32bit registers made that a single instruction and paid back as speed without processors running at faster clocks. If it were speed the 11/74 would have been an ongoing event rather than the 4-6 than did get made. The birth of the VAX (and DGs Eclipse) grew >from this need. So computer designers bumped the size of things to assure they could comfortably address the likely largest object they can resasonably expect to see for some time to come. Not so they could have 2^64bytes of ram but because they already have 2^40bytes of disk farm! All this was no surprize to computer designers. They foresaw it in the 60s knowing that larger memories and disks were needed to solve the problems that were growing. The datapath issue is strictly about speed as the VAX could have an 8bit data bus (in a trade for speed) like the 68008. While it has a big effect on speed it has no interaction with addressability. It's addressing the system problem of multiple devices competing for the common resource (MEMORY). By making the datapath wide you can grab several bytes at the same time and while the cpu is dealing with that the ram is available to run a IO cycle to a disk system or other IO. How big wide enough is, that is determined by how much silicon you have. Allison

26 years, 1 month

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test-drb October 1998