test-drb October 1998

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

175 participants
1141 discussions

UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 08:45 AM 10/20/98 -0700, you wrote: >> I think I know at least 3 or 4 Germans who would like >> to join and I guess there are a lot more. If I may butt in... Perhaps there is a way you can do this. First, pick a location that you think will be convenient for everyone, perhaps near the chunnel(?) or near an airport. Then, find a pub, restaurant, whatever with a decent sized meeting room and convince them to let you hold it there for free. (Often, they'll do this because they figure attendees will buy lots of beer/food/whatever.) Next, pick a date. Get together with your core 5 and find a mutually agreeable date. Plan for 1 day the first time. Let people know about it, arrange for some computers to be on display, maybe a speaker or two, dig up some vendors, and go for it. Costs should be minimal -- printing some flyers, maybe. Income will be minimal too (perhaps charge vendors a small fee) but can be used as seed money for the following year. At the very least, you'll have 5 people getting together for a day of BS'ing about old computers. At best, you'll have a decent first shot at it, with the momentum to really do a bang-up job of it the following year. I think starting out with higher goals worked here because of the high concentration of techies in the Silicon Valley. Over there, I think a more modest start makes more sense. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

25 years, 9 months

DOS disks?

by ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu

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25 years, 9 months

Another thought on 10baseT vs 10Base2: was Re: Microvaxen bits etc.

by go＠ao.com

I just had to stick in my 2.1 cents worth (inflation, you know...) on this issue. I will *never again* use 10base2 for plant wiring for the simple reason that 10base2 (and 10base5) provide a ready path for "ground loops" between all the equipment sharing the cable. It's true that the "grounds" are "supposed" to be isolated (to the tune of several Kvolts) from the computer connection, but, believe me: "sh*t happens." And the results can be dangerous. 10baseT is designed to be isolated at every connection point in the "star" configuration (high-isolation transformer coupling,) so there is a much less likely path for the "big ugly voltage" from one piece of defective equipment that just happens to be shorted to the Ethernet 10base2 cable. You don't get killed when you reach behind your computer and grab the Ethernet cable and suddenly find it has 480vac on it due to some stupid short in a control cabinet. If the 10baseT cable is shorted, the hub has a high potential, but it never makes it out to any of the other cables plugged into the hub. Both of these scenarios assume correctly isolated cable-to-interface connections. It's just there is nothing isolating the bad stuff from you when you touch the cable shield. The necessary hub on 10baseT keeps the bad stuff from getting past the first short - assuming you *do* use a hub... And making 10baseT connections (with the proper 50US$ tool) is MUCH FASTER than making coax connections, if speed is important. Of course, the better (best?) approach is 10baseF, but it isn't readily available for us with home installations (at least not at the price *I* want to pay.) Gary

25 years, 9 months

Noise levels have become deaf

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Exactly what I do to other loud-mouthed salesmen. If they want to babble about crap, go the the neighbor's house. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Bill Richman <bill_r(a)inetnebr.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf > Date: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 10:55 AM > > Hmm... Looks like Sweet Sam decided that if he couldn't shout me down, he'd > just slam the door in my face. What a guy! > > --- > > Return-Path: <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> > Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:21:11 PST > Reply-To: listproc(a)u.washington.edu > Sender: listproc(a)u.washington.edu > From: University of Washington ListProcessor <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> > To: bill_r(a)inetnebr.com > Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > X-UIDL: ee07c31fcdb321395d34af85335a15b0 > > Dear user, > > your request > > UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > > has been successfully processed. > > You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP (classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). > Thank you for being with us. > > > > Bill Richman > incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r > (Home of the COSMAC Elf > microcomputer simulator!) >

25 years, 9 months

FS: Assembly Language on 360/370 book

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

I was considering keeping this, but I came to the realization it is incredibly unlikely I'll ever have the desire to learn assembly on the 360. :-) Assembly Language Fundamentals 360/370, OS/VS, DOS/VS by Rina & Joshua Yarmish 768 pages, hardback $5 shipped. Tom Owad -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>

25 years, 9 months

64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Address bus should be as wide as you think you might need plus a bit mor < As Allison said (again! Why oh why did I delete her post?) you want you < processor to be able to think about huge memories even if you can't buil < them and have to swap to disk. Actually the addres bus can be smaller than register size. For example we could build an 80 bit machine with 60bit address busses. The 60 bits is more than enough to address most likely memory needs for a long while yet if you need to do address math or other math 80bit long registers may make it much easier. The datapath bus can be any size as well but larger is generally better. The assumption of symetry is likely the most false. Allison

25 years, 9 months

Microvaxen bits etc.

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

-----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, 28 October 1998 14:19 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >Oh well... Another useful product becomes unavailable thanks to progress... > Seems that way. I may have found a source of new ones, but the price is a bit much. S/H ones seem to disappear as soon as they come out of service. >> Most network cards produced these days don't have AUI ports on them. >Yes, a lot of them are 10 base T only. Even though (IMHO) 10 base 2 makes >more sense for a small home network (no need to have a hub) and BNC plugs >are a lot easier to wire than those RJ45 things. Oh, RJ45's are no problem provided you have a decent tool. I use crimp on BNC's as well. I have a mix of both on my home network and at my shop. The school is all cat 5 now. >Fortunately, I got a load of transceivers at a radio rally with minor >faults (mostly open-circuit connections on the BNC connector). Lucky boy. >If there's a 16 pin chip near the BNC connector marked 83C92 or something >like that, then it can be made into a transceiver. You can either raid >the bits off the card or (Hey, a good idea...): >A lot of cards have 6 links that you have to move to select between AUI >and 10 base 2. They simply link the appropriate signals from the logic on >the card either to the AUI connector or to the internal transceiver. It >should be possible to feed signal from an AUI 'input' to the right pins >on those links, apply power (you probably only need the +12V line) to the >card and avoid a lot of work. <GRIN> Actually, this thought also crossed my mind whilst gazing at just such a card. I'm going to try that. I have an NE2000 clone card I'm going to try and convert to a txcvr. I think it needs +-12v and +- 5v, but that's not a big problem. (Diskless workstation PSU) >If you want to try this, then you'll need to trace out the schematic >around the links. It's worth knowing that most of the pulse transformers >used to isolate the logic signals at the transceiver contain 3 little >transformers in a 16 pin DIL package on pins (1,2,15,16), (5,6,12,13), >(7,8,9,10). Yep, can see them. >Trace the secondaries to the transceiver chip and then you >know what each transformer section is for (one will be Tx Data, one >RxData, one Collision). Alternatively, trace the link connections to the >ethernet chip on the card, but it may be more difficult to get data on >that. Not even gonna try. A direct patch into the txcvr from the AUI port with a little xover cabling ought to do it. > Did I mention that you'll need the data sheets on the transceiver chip? You did. Know a source? Online one preferably? >The pinout is : <snip> Got it, thanks for that. >> connect them. > >The cable is special :-(. It's 4 twisted pairs + shields (which you link >to the ground pins). One of the twisted pairs is thicker than the other >3, and is used for power. I imagine most anything will probably work, provided the leads are kept short. I have some shielded audio stuff that should do nicely. Something to experiment and tinker with for a while. :^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)

25 years, 9 months

64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

Hans Franke wrote: >>>> I therefore see address buses growing at 16 bits every 30 years. That's >>>> just over a bit every 2 years - slower than I expected but not much. >>>> Someone (I forget who) said that memory chips double in capacity every >>>> 18 months. This would give 16 bits in 24 years. > >>> Interesting szenario, especialy when connected to the Mores Law >>> (didn't he tell this regarding integration ?). > >> Thanks. That's the one I'm thinking of - the amount of memory you get on >> the same area of silicon doubles every 18 months. > > Basicly I think its about integrations and transistor > equivalents, but this is just linear to the size of memorys. > > In fact, to come back to the original question, Arfon > just took doubling of address space and doubbling of > data bus width for the same thing, but in fact they > are two different functions - widening data bus is > linear, while widening address bus is to the square > (sorry, my mathematical english just stops here). > This means doubble the data bus just doubbles the > date transfer rate (the only thing the data bus is > needed for) or w'=w+w. But doubbling the address bus > is putting the address range (and thats what the > address bus is for) to the square or r'=r*r. > > So, while a 256 or 512 bit data bus is usefull (and > already in use in main frames - only called data path), > even a 128 Bit address bus is just nonsense. Hmm. "Square" isn't the best way of putting it. In English we generally call that an "exponential" or "power" function: for an address bus of n bits the size of the memory is 2^^n words (pronounced "two to the power of n"). That's what I was getting at in my post. I agree totally that data paths should be as wide as possible. It wasn't just vaxen (Good post, Allison. A lot of very good points that I hadn't thought of) and mainframes that did that - the PERQ was a 16 or 20 bit machine but the memory data path was 64 bits wide (Help! Tony, you know more about this!) and fetched 4 words at a time for the processor to chew on, then 4 words for the video, 4 words for the I/O etc. Huge increase in speed. Address bus should be as wide as you think you might need plus a bit more. As Allison said (again! Why oh why did I delete her post?) you want your processor to be able to think about huge memories even if you can't build them and have to swap to disk. Philip.

25 years, 9 months

A Proposal (was - Re: Noise levels increasing and....)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> What's the point in proposing another list? If you want to try the >> experiment, build it. Make it happen. > Read the proposal. It isn't strictly a separate list. It is a list > connected by a one-way umbilical cord to the current list. It can't be > done by just creating another list. It has to be done on the current > server. Whether the list software is malleable enough to be shaped to the > task, I do not know. I am leaving it to others to comment on the > technical issue. The idea is to experiment and create a parallel flood > channel for certain things that run hot for a couple of weeks but are not > completely on topic. I don't think this is a "bozo" idea, and I hope you > will ponder its implications for more than a few minutes. I belive your idea could still be done on a second server. For your proposed testrun, a real check about the members of ClassicCmp to allow access for the sidebar list is not needed. The listserver will only be made public thru this list, so any subscription from outside is kind of uncommon. And even if there are some few, they shouldn't change the result in a real way. If the idea is right, an add on for the 'real' server might be made. Or we keep the second and just exchange the member list every other week to check the data base and we get another foot to stay on. Merging both lists into one folder should be no problem for any mail client out there (also splitting it up again into several theme folders). Gruss Hans P.S.: No, Steve, no comment on the subject, it's just a technical response. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

25 years, 9 months

Doug and the Zuses (was:Re: KEITH, WE HARDLY KNEW YOU w

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Oh, did they pull of the DDR 1 Meg chip from display ? >> I belive this is the most funny Display _and_ a thing >> to think about with its implications. > They still had that display, but I don't remember falling over due to its > implications. Maybe the sign was in (East) German. What did I miss? (A > museum of eastern european technology would be pretty cool.) I might be proved wrong, but I belive this chip had a vital role to turn down the wall. In 1985 the Eastern German government decided that they had to pull up with a 1 Meg chip to show that their system is able to do all the same fine things than the west, all of us might temember that the 1 Meg thing was kind of journalists pussy when talking about the future back then. They already cloned the 80286. For the next years they poured all resources within electronic and process development into this project. It was almost like the idea of building a a PDP-8 >from scratch that has been around :) Of course, they already had a technology to produce 64k and prototype 256k, but without any help from outside it's kind of uncomfortable. Short before the wall came down, they finished, but at what cost: the whole development was sucked up into this single project - anything els was almost like stopped even production of actual components suffered. So this project added a lot to the economoc problems witch eventualy lead to the end of their system You know - people without video games and home computers tend to think about dangerous things (<g>). I'm not telling that this development has been the mayor reason, but it added stress to an already stressed system. Gruss Hans P.S.: There are only parts of the Z23 on display in Bonn - basicly only the drumm and drumm controll (AFAIR) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

25 years, 9 months

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test-drb October 1998