- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by Marty＠itgonline.com

______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: CRT decay Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/31/98 11:05 PM >I've got an old CRT that is decaying along the glass edges. Are you saying the phosphor is peeling off the inside of the tube, the aquedag peeling off, or is the glass actually deteriorating? I've never seen glass deteriorate and have some television kinescopes (CRT's) which are close to sixty years old and show no sign of decay, including the aquedag and phosphor. Marty I've seen foam turn to dust, rubber turn to goo, batteries turn to acid, but I hadn't expected CRT glass to revert to sand. Sam tells me that he's seen something similar on his Soroc terminal. What process is causing this? Isn't glass basically SiO2? I assume it's crystalizing rather than oxidizing. Anything I can do to prevent it from occurring on other tubes? Any interesting risks associated with firing an electron gun at this crystalized stuff with no remaining phosphor? -- Doug ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists2.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct31.230501.1767.74354; Sat, 31 Oct 1998 23:05:01 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id UAA20225; Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:02:52 -0800 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id UAA23226 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:02:48 -0800 Received: from behemoth.host4u.net (behemoth.host4u.net [209.150.128.29]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id UAA25 293 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Sat, 31 Oct 1998 20:02:48 -0800 Received: from localhost (yowza@localhost) by behemoth.host4u.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA21696 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:02:47 -0600 Message-Id: <Pine.LNX.3.95.981031214459.29291I-100000(a)behemoth.host4u.net> Date: Sat, 31 Oct 1998 22:02:44 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: CRT decay In-Reply-To: <m0zZoMa-000IyMC@p850ug1> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> X-Sender: yowza(a)behemoth.host4u.net X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

27 years, 7 months

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About VCF 2.0 and system design

by franke＠sbs.de

>> be helpfull. Do you have some, ode do you know someone who does ? > Yes. Don Maslin, who reads this list, will send you CP/M and a bunch of > other disks. He has almost every CP/M disk format known to man -- he does > a great job. Do you have his eMail address, so I could mail him ? > There were a couple different models of the Kaypro 4 (Kaypro reused their > model numbers even after making major internal design changes -- I detest this > practice of reusing model numbers; so far Kaypro is the only company I've seen > that does this). I think each needs a different version of CP/M. I think this is better then just anounce every other month a 'new' model, while they changed only som screws. > Take the case off, and look for a number like 8x-xxx-x on one or more of the > chips on the motherboard. The last x may be a letter (probably A) or a number > or might not be there at all. Kaypro's part-numbering system was rather > erratic, it seems. > 81-240 original (1983? maybe 1982) Kaypro 4 > 81-232 1983 Kaypro 4 > 81-184 1984 Kaypro 4 (a.k.a. Kaypro 4'84) > 81-292 1984 Kaypro 4 (newest ROM version for this machine) > 81-296 Kaypro 4X (with super-high-density floppies) > 81-146 character ROM > 81-187 character ROM > 81-235 character ROM On the Backside ther's some type number: 81-015 (if I remember right) I don't know if it's for the whole machine or what and can't see it fiting in your sceme. Thank you Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Pinouts

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

an excellent source of pinouts for apple ][ connectors is the apple service technical procedures peripheral interface guide. I have this book and it has the pinouts and peripheral configurations for every apple model and peripheral from the apple ][ through the lisa and mac II. this book also provides cable specs as well so one can make his own cable also. this book would have some valuable info for everyone if there was an easy way to copy it. david In a message dated 11/2/98 4:33:17 AM US Eastern Standard Time, dastar(a)ncal.verio.com writes: > I have the pinouts for the Apple ][ bus among other connectors inside the > Apple ][ and don't know where to submit it (and sorry for this public > posting but I don't know Aaron's e-mail address). > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic. > com

27 years, 7 months

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Repair strategy (was Re: eBay strikes again...)

by franke＠sbs.de

> < enough to open a PSU. I read in a book once that opening a PSU will > < cause damage to a special layer that prevents interference from the > < PSU to the motherboard. I haven't been able to substantiate this... > If that doesn't sound bogus to you I have swampland in florida to > sell you. It's bogus. Nono, always remember, The robots that closed the PSU have been especialy trained to do it the right way - if you just close the cover you might confuse the electrons ! And I have some nice land along the Main river in Franken real cheap, you may only have to wait until the 4 feet (1.1m) of water are gone ... Gruss Hans P.S.: The part about the water is true. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Xpost: person wants CoCo schematics

by blakeman＠creative-net.net

This person left this message on the Obsolete Computer Helpline. If anyone can help, please write him directly at his email address in Brazil, not to me. ---------------------------- Danilo R. Costa <danilofilho(a)uol.com.br> Rio de Janeiro, RJ Brazil - Sunday, November 01, 1998 at 19:27:22 I'sorry but I dont speak English. I need a schematic diagram of the TRS Color Computer ( Coco 1 or 2). You can help me? Thanks

27 years, 7 months

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Classic != IBM AT

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

the drive was indeed mfm. the models 50 and 70 had drives that connected to a riser card which then went to the planar. there were no cables on the 50 or 70. david In a message dated 11/2/98 10:30:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time, roblwill(a)usaor.net writes: > The PS/2 Model 30=286 didn't have a cable going to the riser card in it, > nor was it an MCA machine. It was an ISA machine, and The HD plugged into > the motherboard via ribbon cable. I'm not even sure if it was an ESDI > drive. I think it was just an MFM that had everything (including power) on > one cable. > > -Jason

27 years, 7 months

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Classic != IBM AT

by roblwill＠usaor.net

The PS/2 Model 30=286 didn't have a cable going to the riser card in it, nor was it an MCA machine. It was an ISA machine, and The HD plugged into the motherboard via ribbon cable. I'm not even sure if it was an ESDI drive. I think it was just an MFM that had everything (including power) on one cable. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: John Rollins <rexstout(a)uswest.net> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: RE: Classic != IBM AT > Date: Monday, November 02, 1998 8:26 PM > > > Hmm.. Would the 486 system I had a while back count? I forget who made it, > model A3000. 486DX/33 AMD CPU and FPU and some other chips were on a small > daughterboard that fit into a slot in the front of the computer, which > interfaced to an MCA slot... Now that's gotta be wierd for anything. > Closest thing to that I can think of is the hard drives IBM used in some > PS/2's that interfaced directly to the MCA bus(interface built in to the > drive's controller board with a cable going to the MCA riser card in the > Model 30-286 and maybe the 55sx too). That 486 was fun, wish I still had > it... :-| > > -------------------------------------------------------------- > | http://members.tripod.com/~jrollins/index.html - Computers | > | http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/1681/ - Star Trek | > | orham(a)qth.net list admin KD7BCY | > | ham-mac(a)qth.net Portland, OR | > -------------------------------------------------------------- > >

27 years, 7 months

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Pinouts

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Was it Aaron Finney who was doing the Pinout collection? I have the pinouts for the Apple ][ bus among other connectors inside the Apple ][ and don't know where to submit it (and sorry for this public posting but I don't know Aaron's e-mail address). Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98]

27 years, 7 months

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Corvus Concept (was Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt)

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Mitch Wright <mew_jac(a)swbell.net> wrote: > Brings up another topic: Anybody got a Corvus Concept? Yes. What, pray tell, were you up to with them? -Frank McConnell

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I consider anything that was marketed as a personal computer a personal computer. I would not consider the PDP a personal computer if I had one because it's not a personal computer. If you used a sedan to haul around heavy things, would you call it a truck? >>operate. If I could find a SYS/360 or SYS370, or Sigma/7 or Sigma/9 or > >That's exactly how I've viewed it as well. When I told people that >my personal computer was a pdp-11/93 or a uVax system, they generally >balked at the idea, though. I've had to remind them that it is a >computer (that's never in question), and that I own it and use it. >Hence a *personal* computer... And although I didn't have one back >when the Imsai became available, I did get my first one (an 11/10) >in 1980. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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definition of personal computer

by mbg＠world.std.com

>Of course, you may own a Cray 1 as your personal computer (used in the >"accepted" meaning of personal property), but that doesn't make a Cray 1 >a "personal computer" in the taxonomical sense. Let me offer that when a person talks about a 'personal computer', it can be *anything*, including a cray-1. If, however, they talk about a 'peecee', then it probably means what you are referring to above. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 7 months

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Computer cassettes

by KFergason＠aol.com

There is (or was, I haven't been by there in a while) a Radio Shack outlet type store at Gessner and I-10 here in Houston. I have no idea what they sell there, as I lived less than 2 miles from the place for 6 years, and never went. :-) Kelly In a message dated 11/1/98 6:35:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, gram(a)cnct.com writes: > > However, can you tell me more about the liquidation center? Do they have > any > > big items like computers? And do you know where the other location is? > > > > Maybe one of the ex-Radio Shack people should join in on this topic. > > More than five years with the company (starting 18 years ago tomorrow > now that I think of it), never heard of such centers. Must be since > my time. >

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by mbg＠world.std.com

>I suspect that you have several. Hence, what is currently in your >repository? Several machines? Yes... follow the link on my web page to my list of home systems to see what I have up and running... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 7 months

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CRT decay

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

In a computer lab at my school, there is an NEC Multisync 17+ monitor. When off, fingerprints are visible on the surface. I guess it has some kind of finish that got eroded by skin oil. Could this be similar? What is this CRT from again? >> > I've got an old CRT that is decaying along the glass edges. >> >> Are you _sure_. Glass is normally pretty stable, and if it was really >> decaying I would have expected the CRT to have imploded. There's about >> 1/2 a ton of force on the screen of even small CRTs. > >No, I'm not sure. When I first saw it, I thought mold was growing along >the edges, but closer examination showed that that "growth" was inside the >glass, and the patterns were somewhat crystaline. I'll let you know if >it spontaneously implodes. > >> However, there are CRTs that are made with a laminated glass faceplate - > >That's probably it. I saw beads along the edge, so it must be the plastic >that is crystalizing. I'll still let you know when it spontaneously >implodes, though :-) > >> No remaining phosphor? This is strange... What on earth is going on? > >It's possible that the phosphor was simply hidden by the now-opaque >plastic crystal. > >So, how do you detect these laminated CRTs, and can they be sealed to >prevent this type of decay? > >-- Doug > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I know about that. A ROM-based debugger would be helpful if I don't < have a bootable system. helpful with what? Even a rom based debugger presumes there are some system resources that work. For a PC that would mean keyboard, video, some ram and of course the rom plus some of the glue hardware. In reality the only thin not working at that point is the floppy/hard disks. Also most debug monitors are minimalistic and assumptions are you have sources for what your debugging and prints if hardware. For a PC that is not likely. For a PDP-11 and most of the systems I listed before that is likely or at least so to the module level. Different systems concept. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I had not realized that the TU-58 was normally an internal unit. The < one I picked up some years ago was an external unit. Perhaps it came < from a VAX 750 rather than a PDP-11/44 which is what I thought < I had remembered. it was available both ways. It was used in the 11/44, PDT-11/130, VAX 11/730 and 750s as internal. The unit was also available as external. < Any idea of where that "C" source code is? It might be necessary to < replace the TU-58. I forget where but it's flakey code. It was written to run on a unix box. The file I have is TU58-emu.zip. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Yes, that is true. The problem is that I am afraid that the TU-58 I < have is showing signs of problems and I wanted to have a spare < if that was possible. Do anyone have a spare external TU-58 < available? I don't likely have much use for the TU-58 more < than once or twice a year, but I can't predict when it might happen < again. TU58s have two problems, dirty heads and drive roller turning to gum. The first is a cleaning problem. The second is age related. I have a fix for the later. Basically it involoves removing the drive hub, scraping the gunk off it and using PVC or rubber tubing to replace the rubber part. < As far as RT-11 is concerned, I actually saw RT-11 run on the TU-58, < but at the time, the TU-58 was connected to a PC running an Running the real thing is more fun. < But, then the other version of RT-11 was V5.4G which had been < patched to make it Year 2000 compatible. So, there was an < actual 20 year old tape drive that looks like a disk drive under RT being quite old is an enigma in that it keeps going! Allison

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< >or with any of the other PDP-11/44 systems, I am looking for a TU-58 < >tape drive which I understand came as an external unit with this system < < I know on mine, it's located in the same rack as the CPU and the RX02 < drives. It's not external. They did make external ones, though I don' < have one. It was internal and primary use was diagnostis as it was on a serial line making it the easiest thing to bring up. Also the 11/44 interface was slow for some reason and the TU58 was limited to 4800 baud or the 44 would lose data. < >Does anyone have one that they are not using? I understand they were < >used for diagnostics and if the tapes and manuals are still available, < >might still be useful. Otherwise, I have some old tapes I would like t < >read. I have several but I do use them. I can read tape and transfer to RX01/2. This is assumeing the tapes are still good (binder isn't flaking). < It's possible to run RT-11 off of them, which I believe is where the < external drive came into play. Yes, I have an 11/23 with an external TU58 that runs RT11. The one internal to the 44 could also run RT if memory serves. RT11/TU58 expects a DL compatable serial line to use the DD driver.

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by dogas＠leading.net

>'Some X has Y' does not prove that 'All X have Y'. Not to mention the Ys that you cant get to from any X.... *momentary Godel possesion* I couldnt resist. My apologies. - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 7 months

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definition of personal computer

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> wrote: > "Personal Computer" is such a worthless term; we should throw it out. > Because even the timeshare computers could be used "personally" if someone > hacked in and killed all the other users' processes. :WARN @;BACKUP STARTING IN 5 MINUTES Hacked in? I'll have you know I had full authority to abort their sessions. I was the operator, after all, and we had a scheduled time for the backup. Same time every night and I gave them 20 minutes notice (and again at 15, 10, 5, 1, and 0). It wasn't my problem if they didn't want to stick around 'til I was willing to let them log on again. And if I may say so, an HP3000 Series III made a damn fine personal computer. -Frank McConnell

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by hhacker＠gte.net

Wrong. I have forgotten the address to poke (or is it peek - some such action) which causes the AppleII (original, +, and E) to enter the system monitor software. Therein it is easily possible to manipulate all manner of system features and memory contents. If you need the exact information thus, I shall extract it from the manuals, etc that remain in my possession. I own a II+ and a II E, since it is only upon such machines that I may execute the Apple Worm (as published in the May 1985 issue of Scientific American, Computer Recreations column) which I wrote so many years ago. William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: D. Peschel <dpeschel(a)u.washington.edu> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 5:38 PM Subject: Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt >> "Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> > I mentioned that all Apple computers have debuggers/monitors. >> >> That's certainly not true. > >You need to substantiate your claim. Which Apple computers don't have ROM >debuggers or monitors? > >-- Derek > > >

27 years, 7 months

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definition of personal computer

by hhacker＠gte.net

I know perfectly well the accepted definition of personal computer but, language is as much subjective as objective. So, though society may subscribe to a specific definition, there is no reason to assume that all persons of that society also agree to subscribe. After all, this is not France, and we have no national language police. Nevertheless, your point is well taken. William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Doug Yowza <yowza(a)yowza.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 1:48 PM Subject: Re: definition of personal computer >> > For me, a personal computer is defined as any computer that I own >> > and operate. > >Is it time again for our weekly semantics game already? OK! > >Personal Computer: a computer small enough for one person to easily >transport, cheap enough for one person to easily afford, and simple enough >for one person to operate (i.e., interactive). The first personal >computer was Edmund Berkeley's GENIAC from around 1955. > >-- Doug >

27 years, 7 months

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A record?

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

I'd like to put forward a documented record of hauling a PDP 11/45 and TU-10 tape drive and separate racks up two flights of stairs into a third floor apartment between three people. I'm sure someone will challenge this record and put it to shame, but I was impressed with the feat. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98]

27 years, 7 months

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CRT decay

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< There shoudln't be any extra hazard from firing electrons at the screen, < but I am still _very_ curious as to what's happening. I've used 40 or 50 < year old CRTs with no problems, you see. I have two O'scope crts (3BP1 and a 2AP1) that are still good (they were purchased as military surplus when I was a teen for homebrew use) and neither were made much later than 1958 (maybe much older!). I know they work as the scopes I built with them still operate! The glass doesn't decay. If the phosphor is peeling it may be that someone has vented the tube to remove the implosion hazard. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by hhacker＠gte.net

I suspect that you have several. Hence, what is currently in your repository? One interesting piece I have is a MicroWay 80860 board. It is generally described as a single chip Cray 1, and can in bursts (perhaps at greater rates) compute at 80MFLOPS on a 40MHz clock. As it happens, this processor is not quite fast enough but, with about 10 times the power, one could watch movies of flights about the Mandelbrot set in real time at about 1600 by 1280 pixels in 24 bit color. William R. Buckley -----Original Message----- From: Megan <mbg(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 2:21 PM Subject: Re: PDP-11/44 boot prompt > >>For me, a personal computer is defined as any computer that I own and >>operate. If I could find a SYS/360 or SYS370, or Sigma/7 or Sigma/9 or > >That's exactly how I've viewed it as well. When I told people that >my personal computer was a pdp-11/93 or a uVax system, they generally >balked at the idea, though. I've had to remind them that it is a >computer (that's never in question), and that I own it and use it. >Hence a *personal* computer... And although I didn't have one back >when the Imsai became available, I did get my first one (an 11/10) >in 1980. > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer > >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ >| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | >| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | >| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | >| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | >| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | >| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | >+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ > >

27 years, 7 months

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Computer cassettes

by dogas＠leading.net

>Do they have any old laptop parts? Such as a HardDrive controller for a >1400HD? > i'll check the next time I'm there (in a few days...) I'll let you know... - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 7 months

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Today has been a good day for communication.

by hhacker＠gte.net

Just wanted to say thank you to all. Today has been especially active, and it is good to see that much participation. William R. Buckley

27 years, 7 months

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Computer cassettes

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Do they have any old laptop parts? Such as a HardDrive controller for a 1400HD? I know the 1400 isn't quite on-topic (1989), but I use it to keep all the records for my other (over 10-yrs old) computers on. Now the HD controller went, and I can't open anything (can't even boot the computer). Does that make it on topic? ThAnX, -Jason (making a desperate attempt to stay OT) *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Mike <dogas(a)leading.net> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Computer cassettes > Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 7:37 PM > > Hi. > ] > I live in Jacksonville, one of the two sites nationally of a Radio Shack > Liquidation Center.... this weekend I picked up 40 new and sealed C-10 > leaderless certified computer cassette tapes for .25 apiece.... Anybody > nead a few? > > Mike: dogas(a)leading.net >

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Well, not to put too fine a line on it, all modern PC's have a built-in < debugger. The Pentium has a built-in debug mode and brings the debug po < out on the pins. I don't know of any PC maker that includes a debug por has everyone forgotten POST codes already? All you need is a fairly cheap card to display them. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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Computer cassettes

by dogas＠leading.net

Hi. ] I live in Jacksonville, one of the two sites nationally of a Radio Shack Liquidation Center.... this weekend I picked up 40 new and sealed C-10 leaderless certified computer cassette tapes for .25 apiece.... Anybody nead a few? Mike: dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 7 months

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definition of personal computer

by hhacker＠gte.net

Right on! -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland <jim(a)calico.litterbox.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 5:19 PM Subject: Re: definition of personal computer >Personal computer: Any computer owned by a single individual rather than a >corporation or government entity. Alternately any computer with a low enough >aquisition and operation cost to BE owned by an individual. This fits this >group best, since especially the mini and mainframe collectors >have such animals as their "personal computers". > >The semantics become simple. >"What is this cray 1 you have in the basement?" >"It's my personal computer." > >The fact that they're also supers, mainframes, minis, or micros becomes >irrelivant. > >:) > > >-- >Jim Strickland >jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? >-----------------------------------------------------------------------

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< personal computer. I would not consider the PDP a personal computer if < I had one because it's not a personal computer. If you used a sedan But, there were versions of the PDP-11 that were marketed as personal computers. I can name not less than three different offering that were desktop, personal, single user computers. < to haul around heavy things, would you call it a truck? No but it was never anything else nor could it be other than a taxi! The problem is the computers were never called trucks or sedans. Small computers that fit on a desk and are generally single user and affordable by the then current standard were "personal computers". Oh, a PC with an eithernet connection to a host is a WORKSTATION and that is a valid use of the term. The very flexibility and usefulness of small (desktop or deskside) computers lent them to many different descriptions, names and uses most overlaping. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< That is also a nice ability. But, BASIC isn't present in 386+ PCs. < Does anyone know if there is some kind of commercial solution to this? It's called POST, the last time I bought a POST board it was 59$ and that was 3 years ago. it displays a two digit code that points to the failed subsystem. IBM systems also displayed a code to the CRT (if working) that also told the problem. Generally I've troubleshot PCs with nothing more than a VOM. Frequently less. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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Repair strategy (was Re: eBay strikes again...)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< But whatever. It still doesn't explain why VCRs are always repaired to < component level (and I've worked on VCRs with PQFP chips, multilayer < boards, etc in them) and computers almost never are. Sure it may make < sense _sometimes_ to change the module. But not always. Here being the USA a VCR is $79 to $499, at 499 you repair, at 79 unless the problem is trivial it's a junker. NOTE: I'd used the term cost of repair exceeds value of unit before. The average motherboard for 386 and later machines it's unlikely to find 1488/9s on it or the such. Then again fixing a damaged connector or fried HCT244 may make sense. but if it's more than that, pull all the socketed stuff and trash it as I can get used or new before I'll find a replacement for the 84pin PQFP. I've been through the exercize with a 386/486 clone board that the external cache failed on. All I could do with it was disable the external cache, pull the cache rams (they were all good) as it as it was apparently one of the 84pin whatevers that developed a singular failure. At the time of the failure the cost for a new 486 board sans cpu was 69$ with twice the cache ram I had installed. I was able to keep it going at reduced performance but repair was not possible unless I found a similar clone and did a chip swap. IE: Cost of repair... Eventually the board was torched to remove all the usable components like the SIP resistors, clock cans, connectors and the like. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

But if there's an error, isn't the post code displayed (if the display works)? >< Well, not to put too fine a line on it, all modern PC's have a built-in >< debugger. The Pentium has a built-in debug mode and brings the debug po >< out on the pins. I don't know of any PC maker that includes a debug por > >has everyone forgotten POST codes already? All you need is a fairly >cheap card to display them. > >Allison > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

That's right. It's a personal computer, but not because someone has it in their house. I left out the model number on 'PDP' because I'm not familiar with them, but several said that their PDP-11/?? were personal computers just because they had it in their house. >> I consider anything that was marketed as a personal computer a >> personal computer. I would not consider the PDP a personal computer if >> I had one because it's not a personal computer. > >By your own criteria, the original PDP-8 *is* a personal computer. DEC >specifically marketed it based on the it being small enough that someone >could transport it in their automobile (specifically, a Volkswagen), and >cheap enough that someone could afford it. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

That is also a nice ability. But, BASIC isn't present in 386+ PCs. Does anyone know if there is some kind of commercial solution to this? >>< It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for >>< computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. >>Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs, IMSAIs, various >>development systems don't count. Satisfied? > >Most early "home computers" do have the functionality of a >debugger in ROM - they just take decimal numbers, not Hex/Octal, and >require you to type PEEK and POKE :-). > >Tim. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Well, I know all Apple ][s had monitors, and I haven't seen a mac that doesn't have a debugger. Not sure about the Apple I and /// >"Max Eskin" <maxeskin(a)hotmail.com> wrote: >> I mentioned that all Apple computers have debuggers/monitors. > >That's certainly not true. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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Apple Lisa and Apple IIC LCD Display

by roblwill＠usaor.net

You know, it may have been better if this stuff was offered BEFORE it was put on ePay. What's the sense of 'offering' it to everyone on the list when they have to go through ePay anyway? All this basically is is an advertisement. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Greg Mast <gmast(a)polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: FA: Apple Lisa and Apple IIC LCD Display > Date: Sunday, November 01, 1998 4:24 PM > > I was a member of this list for quite a while but the mail load got to > be too much for my school account. > > I have placed an Apple Lisa on the eBay auction today. I'm selling it > for a friend. The bidding ends on Sunday the 8th of November. It has a > noisy drive and the monitor doesn't come on. The guy selling it doesn't > want to put any work into it so it's sold as-is. > > I posted some pictures at my page: > http://www.calpoly.edu/~gmast/sfs/lisa/lisa.html > > I think this system will go for a good price. It will sell regardless. > If this post offends anyone, I apologize but I know some people here > might want one of these for their collection and this might be a good > opportunity. > > For more info, check out the auction listing at: > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=39295177 > > and check out the pictures at the link above. > > I also listed one of those LCD displays for the Apple IIc. It's in great > shape. The auction is at: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=39285574 > > The bidding must take place through the auction now that I've listed > them. > > Bidding is free but you must register with the auction. > > Thanks, > > Greg

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< From: mbg(a)world.std.com (Megan) < < That's exactly how I've viewed it as well. When I told people that < my personal computer was a pdp-11/93 or a uVax system, they generally < balked at the idea, though. I've had to remind them that it is a < computer (that's never in question), and that I own it and use it. < Hence a *personal* computer... And although I didn't have one back What I called a "personal computer" In early 1975 it was an Altair8800. In 1976 I added a COSMAC ELF. In 1977 a SC/MP, Motorola 6800D1 were added. In 1978 A North*star Horizon was the mainstay s100 crate and a Technico 9900 starter board. In 1979 A Netronics explorer8085 was added to the collection. in 1980 I would add a TK80 SBC and a IMSAI IMP48. In 1981 a LSI-11 became mine. The idea of a personal computer for me is quite old and predates even the Altair. However, I would not own a "PC" (upper case denotes them IBM and clone things) of my own until 1991, even then it was an XT class clone (still have that too!)! Oh, FASWE applies with here... FASWE = First Aquired Stays With Me. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I think he means ROM Monitor, from personal experience I know it's nice < have a ROM monitor that you can drop into and exercise the Hardware if < don't have any boot media. < < Then again, why that would be helpful on a PC where you can get DOS with < even trying, I don't know why it would be helpful. Exactly! On a PC to run any code (even a rom debugger) enough resources have to be there to nearly boot it. besides for hardware debug there are POST and other codes. Of course if someone wanted a debugger in rom most PCs still socket the BIOS roms. it's a matter of codeing it up and adding the needed device interfaces. On the whole not that useful. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Besides Allison mentioned the IBM PC with ROM BASIC, and I've used a Zen < Z248 (a 286) with a ROM Monitor that you can drop into, both of these ar < definitly not developement machines. My NeXT slab had a ROM based monit I think the z100 also had one. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs, IMSAIs, various < development systems don't count. Satisfied? < >SWTP 6800 < >ALTAIR-8800b (the front pannel is in a 1702 prom!) < >Godbout 8080/front pannel replacement (octal keypad!) < >Netronics Exploror 8085 < >CCS 2200 series s100 crate < >Heath H8 < >Micromint SB180 (z180) All of which are personal computers of that era and beyond! If you ment the IBM PC and clones you have to be a bit more specfic. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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definition of personal computer

by netcafe＠pirie.mtx.net.au

-----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, 2 November 1998 11:11 Subject: Re: definition of personal computer >That at least reduces the number of terms we have to argue about by one >(there's still "micro", "mini", "workstation", etc.) I have semantic difficulty occasionally when describing my Vax 6000 as a "mini-computer" Considering it weighs in at 300+kg and is taller than my wife, it's mini only in comparison to something truly gigantic. IBM 360's or the like. Cheers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by mbg＠world.std.com

>For me, a personal computer is defined as any computer that I own and >operate. If I could find a SYS/360 or SYS370, or Sigma/7 or Sigma/9 or That's exactly how I've viewed it as well. When I told people that my personal computer was a pdp-11/93 or a uVax system, they generally balked at the idea, though. I've had to remind them that it is a computer (that's never in question), and that I own it and use it. Hence a *personal* computer... And although I didn't have one back when the Imsai became available, I did get my first one (an 11/10) in 1980. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs, IMSAIs, various development systems don't count. Satisfied? >< It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for >< computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. I especially wish the >< PC had a ROM debugger. It would really help me feel like I'm using a >< worthwhile machine. > >Shows what you don't know. Non exhaustive list of micros with debug roms: > >PDP-11/03, 11/23, 11/73, 11/83, 11/84 (most all the non front pannel 11s) > >SC/MP >IMSAI IMP-48 >Kim-1 >SYM-1 >AMI EV68 series >Motorola 6800D1 and D2 >intel SDK-80/85/88 >SWTP 6800 >ALTAIR-8800b (the front pannel is in a 1702 prom!) >Godbout 8080/front pannel replacement (octal keypad!) >Netronics Exploror 8085 >CCS 2200 series s100 crate >Heath H8 >Micromint SB180 (z180) >Intel MDS-800 >Intel MCS-8 (8008) >MicroVAX series including VS2000, 3100, 4000 and others. > >I am very certain I've left a truckload of them off. > >Also if the PC had rom basic there are instruction in basic that allow >access to memory, IO and machine language subroutines. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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FA: Apple Lisa and Apple IIC LCD Display

by gmast＠polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu

I was a member of this list for quite a while but the mail load got to be too much for my school account. I have placed an Apple Lisa on the eBay auction today. I'm selling it for a friend. The bidding ends on Sunday the 8th of November. It has a noisy drive and the monitor doesn't come on. The guy selling it doesn't want to put any work into it so it's sold as-is. I posted some pictures at my page: http://www.calpoly.edu/~gmast/sfs/lisa/lisa.html I think this system will go for a good price. It will sell regardless. If this post offends anyone, I apologize but I know some people here might want one of these for their collection and this might be a good opportunity. For more info, check out the auction listing at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=39295177 and check out the pictures at the link above. I also listed one of those LCD displays for the Apple IIc. It's in great shape. The auction is at: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=39285574 The bidding must take place through the auction now that I've listed them. Bidding is free but you must register with the auction. Thanks, Greg

27 years, 7 months

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Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...)

by dogas＠leading.net

Hi. It must be the (near) full moon... the day... or.... *howlllll* *grrr* ;) -----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland <jim(a)calico.litterbox.com> >The biggest problem these older machines had was microsoft operating systems. >(okay, I'm a Unix/VMS bigot at heart, but DOS and win3.0/3.1 really WERE that >bad.) I guess that before telling you how full of shit ( in a friendly way, of course ) you are I should ask what your refering to here... >>...but I've never met anyone who really LIKED these operating systems the way the apple-heads liked prodos and gsos. *statement now invalid* Alas, (new) Apple-heads are turned-on by marketing ala translucent/green repackaging. Dont get me wrong. the Woz is a god and Newton OS rocks, IIx was cool... The only thing that makes me seek non-ms oses is the programming ease facilitated by microsoft in app development. Need some challenges somewhere.... but I guess this is true for any programmer and their preferred platform... Mike: dogas(a)leading.net .

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Allison... I am supprised - very. The BNC connector is a nice, easy to < fit, reliable, waterproof, connector. The F-connector is a horrible < little thing that (at least in the common version used in the UK) uses < the central wire of the cable as the plug pin. I don't want to trust tha < thing with my data. They are actually very reliable and the cable industry uses them by the ton. What often happens though is like any fine treaded item they can be cross threaded and if the recepticle does not have a good spring connector for the center wire then things fail. Considering I have a house wide master antenna and also a house wide cable distribution there must be at least 50 more F connectors in use and none have ever given me grief. Also I'm used to the older fully soldered BNCs (I still have the better part of a pound coffee can of them) as I use them for all the O'scopes, RF generators, radios (scanners, aircraft) and anything else that demands a good shielded connection. But they are a PITA to assemble. The one I consider the worst is the RCA, no lock, and tends to be loose and noisy over time. Very popular with audio and video. I actually have a bin full of locking rings that go around them to clamp them on. Any test equipment with them installed gets opened and a BNC replacement unless there is good reason not to. < What, no Belling-Lee coaxial plugs (used for TV aerials in the UK, and < thus very common over here) ? Or Pye coax plugs (screw-lock connectors, < not common at all, but I have a reasonable stock of them)? And of course < the SMA/SMB/SMC connectors. I didn't want to go into some of the odd and esoteric like the TNCs. Working with RF over the years I've hit most of them including pipe (waveguides). Some types of cable like various sized hardlines from the rg174 sized to the 2" stuff can use some odd connectors as well. Heck I've been known to fix a sliced 10B5 cable using a pen knife and vinyl electical tape until the Mill coms people could get to it. They were horrified when the found it but, I finshed my printing and the segment was working fine. Cables are part smoke and part majik. The majik is putting the smoke back in when it leaks. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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Repair strategy (was Re: eBay strikes again...)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< repairshop trick to get more money, really. Companies help out a lot < too. I'm sure schematics for a NSX Penitum-II 933 Turbo motherboard You havent the first understanding of repair costs. Lets assume that the chips and prints are available. there are only a few chips and fairly easy to zero in on the failed one. Problem if it takes an hour to do this (including remove and replaceing the bad chip) thats easily 30-50$. Now that does not include getting the board out, putting it back in assuring nothing else was wrong and running it for a few hours (burnin). When a mother board costs between 49-499$ the simple economics arent there. Also repairs are very hard to do on multilayer boards (requires skilled people) and it's very easy to compromise reliablity. Now if the failure was from lightining or a power supply failure the whole board is likely cooked anyway. This also side steps the problem of keeping special tools to desolder the parts, keeping spares on hand, testing and all. All of these things cost and if you have to keep a stock of parts (that can be come antiquated) so you can turn equipment around fast (would you wait a week for reapirs?) is expensive.

27 years, 7 months

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Mac emulators?

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Hello everyone! Is there such a thing as a Mac emulator for a PC? I'd like to download some Mac stuff from the internet, but the only computer that has internet access is a PC. Any suggestions (besides buying one of those Mac/PC programs)? ThAnX, -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>< It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for >< computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. >Sorry, I meant home personal computers. PDPs, IMSAIs, various >development systems don't count. Satisfied? Most early "home computers" do have the functionality of a debugger in ROM - they just take decimal numbers, not Hex/Octal, and require you to type PEEK and POKE :-). Tim.

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I know about that. A ROM-based debugger would be helpful if I don't have a bootable system. > >On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Max Eskin wrote: > >> It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for >> computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. I especially wish the >> PC had a ROM debugger. It would really help me feel like I'm using a >> worthwhile machine. > >Boot DOS (or open a DOS window). Type "debug". Not in ROM but its what >you want. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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PDP-11/44 boot prompt

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< It's too bad most micros don't have a debugger in ROM. Except for < computers made by Apple, I don't know of any. I especially wish the < PC had a ROM debugger. It would really help me feel like I'm using a < worthwhile machine. Shows what you don't know. Non exhaustive list of micros with debug roms: PDP-11/03, 11/23, 11/73, 11/83, 11/84 (most all the non front pannel 11s) SC/MP IMSAI IMP-48 Kim-1 SYM-1 AMI EV68 series Motorola 6800D1 and D2 intel SDK-80/85/88 SWTP 6800 ALTAIR-8800b (the front pannel is in a 1702 prom!) Godbout 8080/front pannel replacement (octal keypad!) Netronics Exploror 8085 CCS 2200 series s100 crate Heath H8 Micromint SB180 (z180) Intel MDS-800 Intel MCS-8 (8008) MicroVAX series including VS2000, 3100, 4000 and others. I am very certain I've left a truckload of them off. Also if the PC had rom basic there are instruction in basic that allow access to memory, IO and machine language subroutines. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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ATMs

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Actually, my father asked me, which got me thinking. You know, here in Boston, we had text terminal ATMs until about a year ago, when they were replaced by touch-screen graphical ATMs. I don't like them too much just because of the lurid colors. But anyway, I was just curious if they used a microprocessor, microcontroller, or something else... >> Has anyone here had any experience with ATMs? >> What sort of specs might an ATM have? How does it connect to the >> bank computer? >> Thanks >> >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > > >Uh, thinking of a little midnight "project"? > > >Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated >------------------------------------------------------------------------ >"UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." > --> Scott Draves > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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Repair strategy (was Re: eBay strikes again...)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Because while VCRs are not considered modular by the general public, computers are. This means that while you can't tell someone that their VCR's motherboard is fried, you can say that about a computer. A repairshop trick to get more money, really. Companies help out a lot too. I'm sure schematics for a NSX Penitum-II 933 Turbo motherboard are a lot harder to find than those for a JVS VCR. And that's another reason why noone bothers to fix motherboards, because while a VCR has certain standard components, a motherboard can have damn near anything on it. It's also interesting how while a power supply is often the easiest component to diagnose and repair, it is always treated like a module, and I doubt many techs have been curious enough to open a PSU. I read in a book once that opening a PSU will cause damage to a special layer that prevents interference from the PSU to the motherboard. I haven't been able to substantiate this... >Actually, in the UK, it's _very_ uncommon to buy complete PCBs for TVs or >VCRs. Buying individual components is a lot more common. And custom chips >should be available while the device is in production, but good luck >finding them in 10 years time :-(. > >I am not sure why 'repairing' computers is done by module replacement >while TVs/VCRs are fixed to component level. It's no more difficult to >change a chip in a computer than in a VCR (a lot of modern VCRs are full >of surface-mount parts). It's no more difficult to trace the fault >either. > >-tony > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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Week end acquisitions

by fauradon＠pclink.com

Hi all, Pretty good finds at the Minnesota Hamfest yesterday. 2 Gridpads Complete (only one set of manual) Anybody has software for those? The Voice, Odyssey 2 Spech and sound effects module Others that are not 10 years old but I'll brag about them anyway: 75 MHz pentium laptop ($20 working) Epson ActionLaser 1500 ($25 working) set of SCM ethernet cards ($2 each Unknown condition) Tere was a few other Grid computers, laptops of all sorts (zenith, toshiba, ps/2 70 ...), and a lot more but my budget was very limited this time so I pcked up the one I wanted the most. Francois ------------------------------------------------------------- Visit the desperately in need of update Sanctuary at: http://www.pclink.com/fauradon/

27 years, 7 months

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A record?

by netcafe＠pirie.mtx.net.au

-----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, 1 November 1998 15:20 Subject: A record? > >I'd like to put forward a documented record of hauling a PDP 11/45 and >TU-10 tape drive and separate racks up two flights of stairs into a third >floor apartment between three people. >I'm sure someone will challenge this record and put it to shame, but I was >impressed with the feat. So am I. I'd have to concede that as being an act of considerable fortitude. I thought I did well moving a Vax 8530/6310 cluster, complete with 2 HSC50's, TA78/TU78 and about 15 RA8x and some RA7x drives from a warehouse to my parents house, then getting it up a narrow gap into a vacant granny flat. Over gravel. But we did have a forklift load it on the vehicle for us. I think the PDP effort beats that one. The TA78/TU78 was the hardest, and the heaviest.. It took six of us to move it all. (Called in a few favours, and a mate with a ute, uh, pickup in us-speak) This doesn't include the several large station wagon loads of 1/2" r-r tape and the docs for VAX-VMS 5.5. For those not acquainted with VMS, the manuals are loose leaf A4 Binders, and there are close to 40 of them. It's normally shipped on a pallet, and referred to by users as the "great grey wall" after the colour of the ring binders. (Some earlier versions were other colours, orange I think, but they weren't quite as big either.) Cheers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au

27 years, 7 months

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A record?

by netcafe＠pirie.mtx.net.au

-----Original Message----- From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, 1 November 1998 17:22 Subject: Re: A record? >On Sun, 1 Nov 1998, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: >> I thought I did well moving a Vax 8530/6310 cluster, complete with >> 2 HSC50's, TA78/TU78 and about 15 RA8x and some RA7x drives >This is pretty impressive in its own right! Didn't impress me in 40c+ temps. I still have this system. The 6310 (now a 6320) and 1 HSC50 + Star Coupler & the SA550 with it's 8 RA7x (3 72's & 5 70's) are the WWW, FTP and Email site for the school I work at. When it eventually retires, (again!) it's coming here, but that won't be for a few years yet. The 8530 and its CI adapter cabinet, and the TA78/TU78 are used as a room divider at the internet cafe. The 8530 console (DEC Pro380 alias a PDP-11) is sitting on top of it. It lacks only the console cable to make it a goer. The 78's need a couple of new power supplies, but were working til the psu's failed. 1 HSC50 and a cabinet with 3 x RA81's serves as the counter, with a side panel as a desktop. Makes interesting decor for an internet cafe. Mind you it will be a lot more interesting once I get it all working again. Cheers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au

27 years, 7 months

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teledisk (was: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II...

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

] Sydex (http://www.sydex.com/) has some very excellent software ] available for dealing with "foreign" floppy formats, and can deal ] with many (but not all) 8" floppy formats. Instead of going into ] ... >If you are referring to teledisk, it is worth noting that they no >longer offer a single-user non-commercial license; they stopped >offerring it as shareware in 1991, and is now solely a commercial >product with a licensing fee of $150. The shareware version that >can still be found out there is now "warez" - illegal, copyable >only by pimply-faced HaKkErZ with bad breath and no morals. :-/ >I exchanged e-mail with them recently about this, and though they >were polite, they refused to consider licensing it for less than >their stated price. As I use Teledisk for commerce, I don't have any problems with the $150 fee. I agree, it is a shame that the shareware version can no longer be registered for a small fee, especially because large quantities of freely distributable software is out there in Teledisk-image format (for example, all the POS-related RX50's for DEC Pro's are archived at Uppsula in teledisk format.) >Anybody know of any reasonable alternatives, for those of us that >are hampered by rules against theft? Sydex does have a product which fills many of the same needs that Teledisk does, and this is CopyQM. It supports 3.5", 5.25", and 8" floppies and even has some features that Teledisk didn't have. I don't have as much experience with it as I do with Teledisk, but CopyQM does have the advantage that single-user licenses are available for only US$25. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 7 months

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ATMs

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Has anyone here had any experience with ATMs? What sort of specs might an ATM have? How does it connect to the bank computer? Thanks ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...)

by netcafe＠pirie.mtx.net.au

-----Original Message----- From: John Ruschmeyer <jruschme(a)exit109.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, 1 November 1998 10:42 Subject: Re: Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...) >That is to say, because any software which ran on them can still be >run on a Pentium, there is little reason for someone to pick one up >just to run some beloved old game, Don't be too sure about that. Try running Chuck Yeagers Air Combat on a Pentium or 686. Or Battle Of Britain. one don't work, one exhibits some very strange effects. Both work very well on 386 or 486 machines. Cheers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au

27 years, 7 months

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teledisk (was: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II...

by yakowenk＠cs.unc.edu

On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com wrote: ] To: classiccmp(a)u.WASHINGTON.EDU ] Subject: 8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II stuff!) ] Message-ID: <981027110530.222003f4(a)trailing-edge.com> ] ] >... ] > I can serial port the machines togethet but, I have no idea how ] > to read off all the sectors of the 8 inches. ] ] This is a question that has been dealt with very thoroughly in the ] past. ] ] Sydex (http://www.sydex.com/) has some very excellent software ] available for dealing with "foreign" floppy formats, and can deal ] with many (but not all) 8" floppy formats. Instead of going into ] ... If you are referring to teledisk, it is worth noting that they no longer offer a single-user non-commercial license; they stopped offerring it as shareware in 1991, and is now solely a commercial product with a licensing fee of $150. The shareware version that can still be found out there is now "warez" - illegal, copyable only by pimply-faced HaKkErZ with bad breath and no morals. :-/ I exchanged e-mail with them recently about this, and though they were polite, they refused to consider licensing it for less than their stated price. Anybody know of any reasonable alternatives, for those of us that are hampered by rules against theft? I suppose I'll eventually write my own, but my schedule looks pretty well jammed clear into the next millenium. ] Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com ] Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 ] 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 ] Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Cheers, Bill.

27 years, 7 months

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ATMs.

by netcafe＠pirie.mtx.net.au

-----Original Message----- From: Jim Strickland <jim(a)calico.litterbox.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Sunday, 1 November 1998 12:46 Subject: ATMs. >Okay, curiosity time. What happens to obselete ATMs? Anyone here collect them? I've seen several, minus the electronics, at a hitech scrap dealer. (Same place I find a lot of computers)He sells them to opal dealers in Coober Pedy and Andamooka, plus an increasing number to owners of pistols. (er, handguns in us-speak, I suppose). Weapon ownership is extremely repressed here these days, and there are all sorts of draconian requirements about storage of firearms in general, and you can square that for pistols. (Almost impossible to license for Joe Average) Sometimes he has to pay a locksmith to open them, but he gets $500-600 ea for them. Cheers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au

27 years, 7 months

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Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...)

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

win3.1 has been pretty stable for me. win95 still seems too fragile in my opinion. everytime i have to reboot without shutting down, i pray it comes back up ok. i also cannot understand how a dos session can totally hang win95... i run OS/2 at work and i've never had a crash. sometimes the machine will hang due to network problems. so far, i've had the machine continously on for two weeks and still going. nothing from microsoft could do that! I've migrated to version 4 now which is better at getting around a hung application. david In a message dated 10/31/98 10:04:45 PM US Eastern Standard Time, maxeskin(a)hotmail.com writes: > I guess experiences vary wildly in terms of stability. I've never > had a problem with DOS or Windows 3.x in terms of stability. Some > crashes, but usually when running junky programs. Win95 I might trust > in terms of not crashing, but the filesystem is so unreliable, I stay > away from it. Linux, I'm running on this Compaq 386sx/20 with 6MB RAM, > and it's never crashed. Slackware. I dunno. I seem to be lucky with > not having things fail. I've plugged in connectors backwards many a > time, and have never fried anything. The SMPSU cut out. But then, how > many people would say DOS is unstable?

27 years, 7 months

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ATMs.

by jim＠calico.litterbox.com

Okay, curiosity time. What happens to obselete ATMs? Anyone here collect them? -- Jim Strickland jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Vote Meadocrat! Bill and Opus in 2000 - Who ELSE is there? -----------------------------------------------------------------------

27 years, 7 months

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eBay strikes again...

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Most things under ten years old can't be repaired because they have weird custom chips. I guess the corporations did an excellent job convincing people that a machine should die, and be replaced, impossible to repair. 90V batteries? How big are they? How big is the radio? >Yes, _you'd_ fix it. I'd fix it, and I guess other people here would do >the same. But the general public seem to think that anything over 3 years >old can't be repaired.. > >One of the radios I use here from time to time is a 1950's Vidor portable >radio with the FM band. It's valved. I got it second hand and it needed >very little work to get it going again - mostly cleaning contacts and >valveholders. I think all the valves are original as well. I've made a >little mains PSU for it as 90V batteries are difficult to find nowadays. > >And I don't consider a set of that age that still works to be unusual at all. > >-tony > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I guess experiences vary wildly in terms of stability. I've never had a problem with DOS or Windows 3.x in terms of stability. Some crashes, but usually when running junky programs. Win95 I might trust in terms of not crashing, but the filesystem is so unreliable, I stay away from it. Linux, I'm running on this Compaq 386sx/20 with 6MB RAM, and it's never crashed. Slackware. I dunno. I seem to be lucky with not having things fail. I've plugged in connectors backwards many a time, and have never fried anything. The SMPSU cut out. But then, how many people would say DOS is unstable? > >Last reboot of this dos6.22/win3.1 system was three weeks ago when I shut >it down to shuffle the drives and replace a dead fan. It's quite stable. >Then again I tend to trash apps that don't behave! I've also tamed a >few unruly ones with carefull edits or the creation of a proper PIF >file. Considering the number of DOS apps I run under windows Setting >things up right is a necessity. > >To me GPFs are applications that under VMS would likely cause an >exception exit dump. GPFs are a poor error handling mech for programs >trying to do what should or are illegal things. It's easy to blame a >weak OS for crappy applications. Dos has few to no protections and >ragging on it is unfair. > >< compared to the stability (weeks and months without rebooting) of Linux, >< in turn doesn't approach the bulletproof reliability you expect from VMS > >The Slakware 3.0 Linux I have on a 386dx/33 that is a good machine but >with only 8meg of ram Linux is not that stable. Forget getting xwindows >to behave well in 8meg. > >< I freely admit I learned most of my computer science under Vax-VMS so I >< strong bias towards it, but I've also run moderately large scale vaxclus > >I'm biased as well, I run 7 vaxen here, two of which are LAVC members. >I also run RT-11, RSTS-11 and a lot of CP/M systems. > >< and at least the versions we used... 5.5a, if memory serves, were remark >< reliable. To the point where we once had a cluster server loose its dis > >Solid! I run both 5.4-4 and 5.5 and uptimes are limited by power on >times, though in the past I've seen months to years. > >< I'm not a programmer. I'm a sysadmin/netadmin type. Ease of programmin >< secondary to me compared to reliability. A system that crashes frequent >< the bane of my profession's existance, because it means instead of spend >< time on the entire environment and routine maintenance you spend more ti >< firefighting mode. > >That is why VMS, unix and their kin are used on the enterprize scale. >Dos/win was used that way but it was never conceived as a multiuser OS >nor as a networking server platform. Using it that way maybe a hackers >dream but a sysadmin nightmare. > >< We were discussing why people don't get attached to PCs as much, and any >< machine that bombs frequently or in general causes headaches seems to me >< it's not going to be high on people's lists. > >A machine that is poorly understood and marketed by processor speed >hype that shows zippy games. I still don't understand why a kid needs >a 300MHz PII to run simcity other than hype. To me it's simpler, one >486dx or PII is the same as another, ther eis nothing to distinguish >them. Even the PS2 series was at least different on the bus level. > >It's a matter of maturity of the system and all of the software. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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eBay strikes again...

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

On this list 'doesn't work' means 'smashed into three thousand pieces' In most places, 'doesn't work' means 'it doesn't do what I want it to' Almost anything that goes wrong with an Osborne (besides physical damage) is fairly trivial to fix for people on this list anyway. > >< "Again, the unit TURNS ON!! Incredible considering >< the age of the thing. " > >Gee, the NS* Horizon that turned 20 years old last march must really be >unusual in that I still use it and it's still reliable! > >Then again I have a battery portable TV I bought in '71 that still works >too. I see little majik in all that. I expect it to work and if it >didn't I'd fix it. > > >What scares me more, is the bozo thinks it turns on and lights and fans >mean it works. > >Allison > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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What is a PX4?

by pjoules＠joules.enterprise-plc.com

I have been told by the software house who supply us at work that there might be some old PX4s and PX8s in their storeroom which no-one wants any more. Does anyone know what these are? I gather that htey may be some sort of intelligent terminal as the chap comcerned said they they used to be used on site and then plugged into a modem to upload the data to their main database. Regards Pete

27 years, 7 months

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Ancient machines turning on (was Re: eBay strikes again...)

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

It's not that weird. Everyone knows that 286 and 386 machines are crap ;) In fact, one reason is that noone gets attached to them, and also because Pentia aren't that much different from 386s. So, no nostalgia. And, I think that early PCs were a lot less useful than some other machines of the time (like Commodores and Apples) > >> At 06:49 AM 10/31/98 -0800, Seth wrote: >> >> >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=38897455 >> >> >> >> ...with a broken disk drive and still 6 days to go! >> > >> >Aaah, my favorite quote from the auction posting: >> > >> > "Again, the unit TURNS ON!! Incredible considering >> > the age of the thing. " >> > >> >I guess I should consider my PDP-11/04 a bloody miracle then ;) >> >> And I'm going out to the garage to bow in humble supplication to me PDP-8/i! > >Isn't it something that you try to sell the obscure in your local area to have >people ask what you'd pay them to throw it away for you but newer items sell at >reasonable amounts. Get on something like ePay and the weird and no longer >desirable (by the average person) goes for weord amounts and newer machines >rarely get a look (ie 286 and 386 machines). > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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What is a PX4?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< I have been told by the software house who supply us at work that there < might be some old PX4s and PX8s in their storeroom which no-one wants an < more. Does anyone know what these are? I assume the are Epson. The PX8 is a portable z80 based CP/M laptop. If memory is correct the PX$ was an earlier predecessor of same. I have a PX8 and it's a nice machine. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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eBay strikes again...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< "Again, the unit TURNS ON!! Incredible considering < the age of the thing. " Gee, the NS* Horizon that turned 20 years old last march must really be unusual in that I still use it and it's still reliable! Then again I have a battery portable TV I bought in '71 that still works too. I see little majik in all that. I expect it to work and if it didn't I'd fix it. What scares me more, is the bozo thinks it turns on and lights and fans mean it works. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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eBay strikes again...

by aaron＠wfi-inc.com

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37938902 ...with more than a day to go! And... http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=38897455 ...with a broken disk drive and still 6 days to go! I would say "sign me up" to officially endorse Haggle, but I was browsing the listings and it seems that everyone starts their auctions at very high prices (at least the antique section, I didn't check anything else)... Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." --> Scott Draves

27 years, 7 months

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eBay strikes again...

by dogas＠leading.net

Thats nothing... how about a TRS-80 Voxbox that just went for $300... - Mike: dogas(a)leading.net From: Aaron Christopher Finney <aaron(a)wfi-inc.com> >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=37938902 >And... > >http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=38897455 > >...with a broken disk drive and still 6 days to go! <snip> <snip><snip>

27 years, 7 months

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What is this? Commodore Magic Voice

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Any idea what this is? It looked interesting so I grabbed it. I looks like it plugs into the ROM socket. It has a ROM socket and two RCA jacks on it. Joe

27 years, 7 months

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What is this? Strange keyboard

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Thanks for the info. Any idea what the two cables are for? If you find the brochures, I'd like to get a copy. Joe At 06:24 PM 10/30/98 -0800, you wrote: >On Fri, 30 Oct 1998, Joe wrote: > >> I was wondering through a trift store the other day and found a odd >> keyboard. It's labeled "CompuNET 2000" and looks like a regular 101 key >> keyboard for a PC but it has two extra cables with miniture phono plugs on >> the ends. One with two contacts and the other with three. It also has two >> phone jacks on the back of the keyboard. There are a couple of extra keys >> on the board. One is marked PHONE and the other is marked LINE. Some of >> the numeric key pad keys are marked REDIAL, MUTE, VOL, OPER, etc. anyone >> know what this is for? > >I think this was a keyboard with a built-in phone. This is pretty recent >(within the last two years). It was good for call centers (i.e. >operations with lots of telephone operators for telemarketing or what >not). I have brochures for it somewhere. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- >Always being hassled by the man. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > >

27 years, 7 months

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About VCF 2.0 and system design

by dpeschel＠u.washington.edu

I keep meaning to post a "reaction to the VCF" message. Since I have to do a lot of compilers homework at the moment, now is the perfect time. :) I enjoyed the VCF and will come next time. (I may bring my Kaypro to show to people, or perhaps just software -- there were other Kaypro demos there. I will probably bring my HP-97 if I still have it. I will definitely bring my electromechanical Marchant desk calculator if it's working then.) I do have to say that it was a little disappointing, because I didn't see some of the machines I wanted to see (or if I did see them, e.g., at the Computer Museum, they weren't running). Those would be old machines that are cool by modern standards, instead of being cool by old standards -- Amiga, Perq, Acorn, Symbolics, Be, NeXT, maybe AT&T 3B, Blit, Sony with NeWS, PDP-10, PDP-11 with GT40, PDP-12, LINC, PDP-1. The speeches were fantastic and I should have gone to more of them. The flea market was useful but not as cool as I had hoped. Also some people were selling worthless stuff or were obviously non-hobbyists who were drafted to sell things. (I don't object to non-hobbyists with knowledge and interest nearly as much as I object to non-hobbyists who have no clues or scruples.) It concerns me greatly that I didn't meet many people my own age (24) and that many people there were in fact much older than I am. Now, as for the "system design" part of the title... I have this ongoing ideal (crusade, project, romantic vision) of designing a fantastic new computer, or at least a *sensible* new computer. We now have computing power to spare for frills as well as function; many design ideas have been tried before and their consequences are known to some degree; disasters have been proved to be dis- asters (often more than once!). It surprises me that I haven't seen much interest in this. BTW, the VCF is quite relevant to this topic because the concept of "look at all these computers at once and compare them" is extremely useful. I can think of two problems, though: - We had a thread about designing your own CPU. We've also had discussions about the lack of schematics and technical info. So it seems that hardware is less accessible to the individual amateur, and it's very difficult for the amateur to break through to the next generation. I don't know if it's true, but it seems that way. - Also, information is disappearing. There's relatively copious documentation about old hardware, but not much about old software (or old software itself). Didn't someone try to put together an archive of software info? I haven't heard much about it. Although hardware is important and my ideal computer is going to have super-kick-butt hardware, the hardware designers seem to be working things out on their own -- it's the software market that needs a poke or two. Let me know what you think. -- Derek

27 years, 7 months

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ATMs.

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Okay, curiosity time. What happens to obselete ATMs? >Anyone here collect them? Due to security concerns - after all, you don't want anybody getting their hands on those little printing presses inside that make $20's - all ATM's are destroyed upon decomissioning :-). More seriously, the things are probably melted down for scrap. The ATM's that I've seen being serviced probably weigh as much as a small car. Many recent ATM's have PC-clone hardware in their "smarts". I've seen several different ones in the process of "rebooting" and displaying the OS/2 startup screen. I've seen out-of-commision ATM's show the "General failure reading drive C:" message, as well. Tim "Who is this General Failure, and why is he reading my drive C?" Shoppa

27 years, 7 months

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What is this? Strange keyboard

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I was wondering through a trift store the other day and found a odd keyboard. It's labeled "CompuNET 2000" and looks like a regular 101 key keyboard for a PC but it has two extra cables with miniture phono plugs on the ends. One with two contacts and the other with three. It also has two phone jacks on the back of the keyboard. There are a couple of extra keys on the board. One is marked PHONE and the other is marked LINE. Some of the numeric key pad keys are marked REDIAL, MUTE, VOL, OPER, etc. anyone know what this is for? Joe

27 years, 7 months

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Apple IIe (fwd)

by siconic＠jasmine.psyber.com

Someone wants to get rid of their Apple //e. That someone's message is below. Please respond to the original poster: Reply-to: mememe(a)sirius.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 30 Oct 1998 14:14:24 +0100 From: mememejstrebel <mememe(a)sirius.com> Subject: Apple IIe My parents have our first computer, an Apple IIe sitting in my old bedroom, and I would love to find a new home for it that didn't involve the dump. Can you help me? -Judy Strebel Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Always being hassled by the man. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web page update: 09/28/98]

27 years, 7 months

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another request

by dhansen＠zebra.net

While I'm asking, does anyone know where I can find some software to use with a HP C1710A optical jukebox? Preferrably for the solaris platform, linux or windows (NT) will be acceptable if there isn't anything else. david

27 years, 7 months

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8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II stuff!)

by mann＠pa.dec.com

Since my name has been invoked, I thought I'd jump in here. Please don't think I ever pointed anyone to www.warez.com, an extremely icky site with pictures of genitals and zillions of popup consoles that attack you as soon as you get there. The useful site for low-level disk manipulation programs that I pointed Larry to is www.diskwarez.com. Also, I'm not working on TRS-80 Model II emulation -- I'm just thinking about doing that in the future. I'm hardly an expert on the Model II. At Galactic Software I worked in the same room as one, but I did all my work on the Model I and III. I would be very interested in getting a copy of the technical manual for the Model II or 12, though! -- Tim Mann <mann(a)pa.dec.com>, Compaq Systems Research Center http://www.research.digital.com/SRC/personal/Tim_Mann/

27 years, 7 months

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Lisa stuff update

by Marion.Bates＠Dartmouth.EDU

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 261 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981030/7c7d4779/at…

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< So that the connector would actually fit on the handle or bracket of < cards mounted on tight spacing. F connectors are huge. We talking about the same connector? F is the same one used to TV RF. Likely that's why they didn't use it (confuse 'net with video). However both are about the same size (give or take a few thousanths). The F connector uses solid conductor wire. That may have been the reason there too, solid center is less flexible.. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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TI 745 for sale

by franke＠sbs.de

Kenneth Miller <khmiller(a)yahoo.com> has a TI 700 mobile Terminal for sale - maybe some of you remember this nice pice off portable Hardware (Termoprinter TTY with 300 Bd acoustic couppler). Please contact him directly when interested. >> Silent 700 Electronic Data Terminal Model 745. This is a real relic from the early 1980's. Does it work? I don't know, I haven't tried it. It includes a built in 300 baud modem with acoustic coupler and a thermal printer with a partial roll of paper. The unit is self contained but the cover is not shown in the picture. The shipping weight will be 16 pounds. << Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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VCF II pix on-line

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

VCF II pix now available on my web pages. The direct URL for those who don't want to wander thru the menus: http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw/jcgm-vcfii.html They are not all captioned yet, so anyone who would like to throw in IDs on some of the pix missing captions are welcome. -jim --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

27 years, 7 months

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Help in MD needed

by david.ward＠nist.gov

At 01:27 PM 10/30/98 -0600, you wrote: >Is there a friendly collector in Maryland who'd be willing to help me pick >up and ship about 100 lbs of goodies to California? I'd compensate you >for your trouble, and offer to return the favor next time you hear of some >goodies available in computer-rich Silicon Valley. > >Thanks, >Doug > Doug, What, when, and where in MD is your goodie pile? Is it one item at 100# or several smaller items that total 100#? I'd have to work it in around the family schedule, etc.... Best Regards, David Ward ******************************************************* David E. Ward Jr. National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) Building 220 Room B-113 Gaithersburg, Maryland 20899-0001 Tel: (301) 975-3209 Fax: (301) 975-5360 E-mail: david.ward(a)nist.gov *******************************************************

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by dburrows＠netpath.net

>We talking about the same connector? F is the same one used to TV RF. >Likely that's why they didn't use it (confuse 'net with video). However >both are about the same size (give or take a few thousanths). The F >connector uses solid conductor wire. That may have been the reason >there too, solid center is less flexible.. Not to mention all the noise problems when the film on the center conductor is not scraped off when you assemble them. At least with BNC you have a gold plated pin that is either soldered or crimped that is making the actual connection. If it were not for the bad connection problems I have encountered I would gladly use F connectors. Dan

27 years, 7 months

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To Mark Tapley

by cdrmool＠interlog.com

Hi Mark, just in case my e-mail to your address doesn't work again (my e-mail is going to be labelled an X-file pretty soon as nothing I send arrives and not much from the list is making its way to me). Anyway I'm at 55 Brookmount Rd. Toronto, Ontario Canada M4L 3N3. Please send the Rainbow doc's (I'll pass on the stand though). Tell me the amount and I'll get it too you right away. TIA Colan P.S. apologies to others on the list for this off topic letter but I didn't want to lose this opportunity for to Dec Rainbow stuff.

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< cables from the plates to the machines. Bore a 3/4" hole in the top plat < the wall in the attic, or in the bottom if from the basement (as mine is < and you can pass even the BNC through. Make sure to put foam sealant aro Been there and done that. < Not sure if F connectors were around back then, or if they were very muc They were but BNC is later than the original eithernet which used expensive and hard to assemble Type N. < use. Also it makes things much harder to disconnect. That's why they I can understand quick disconnect. Also It may have been an artifact of the WANG loop drops that used RG58/59 and BNC. < probably didn't use PL259 and SO238 combos since every had their fill o < threaded connectors from the twinax days. They are just plain too big. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by netcafe＠pirie.mtx.net.au

-----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, 28 October 1998 9:55 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >> >>While I'm at it, AUI-10Base2(or t) transceivers are also getting rare, > >Odd.. Why on earth should those be rare? Or don't people use AUI ports any more. Short answer is no. They don't. Not around here anyway. Most network cards produced these days don't have AUI ports on them. Unfortunately all my big (and some smaller) Digital boxen only have an AUI on their ethernet adapters. >You _might_ be able to raid the 10 base T interface chip, or the >10 base 2 transceiver chip + isolated PSU + transformers off a PC >ethernet card, make a PCB, and build your own transceiver. A lot of cards >(at least the old cards I hack about with) use standard chips like the >83C92 (10 base 2) or 83C94 (10 base T). The data sheets for the chips >give the application circuits, and most of the bits can probably be >raided off old ethernet cards. If I get desperate enough. I have no shortage of 10Base2 + AUI 16 bit PC cards. I'm really gonna have to find a pinout for the AUI connectors. And how to connect them. I have found a source for new txcvrs in Adelaide (finally) but it's rather more than I had intended to pay, when a s/h one would do. > >If you can find some old 10 base 5 transceivers (thickwire), then by >changing the connector, they'll often work on 10 base 2 networks. It's >not 'official', but it seems to be OK. Probably, but they are pretty rare as well. IIRC, I think the difference is only in the signal level injected into the cable, it's somewhat lower for thick cable due to the lower loss of the RG8. Modern ethernet transceivers are rather more sensitive, so unless you had maxed out the distance to the full 180 meters or thereabouts, it should work just fine. Cheers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au (My other home)

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

Tony Duell wrote: > She'd explode faced with this dining room, then. There's about 15 systems > that I can see without even trying. Along with printers/monitors/etc. The > total number of processors is probably over 1000. How many are you counting for the DAP? Philip.

27 years, 7 months

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Tbar data monitor, looking for...

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Just found a TBar Explorer, a serial data monitor model 5915-10 >from all I can see. Its working but I'm looking for schematics and manuals for it. Remarkably it seems to be of 1985 vintage! Allison

27 years, 7 months

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PCjr with no disk drive?

by roblwill＠usaor.net

There may have been an advanced BASIC or something on a cartridge, but I think the ROM BASIC was in the M/B's ROM. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Joe <rigdonj(a)intellistar.net> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: PCjr with no disk drive? > Date: Thursday, October 29, 1998 1:15 PM > > At 09:08 AM 10/29/98 -0800, Sam said: > > >The PCjr had BASIC in ROM and didn't require a floppy to boot. > > Was the BASIC in a plug in cartridge and optional? > > Joe > >

27 years, 7 months

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PCjr with no disk drive?

by rector＠usa.net

The PCjr has become a 'project' for me lately. I've been trying to find out all I could. I finally decided to add one to my collection and this past weekend went out and came home with 3 all for $1.50 plus a Commodore Vic-20 to boot. Here's what I've been able to find: The PCjr came in two flavors: the entry (model 4) and enhanced (model 67): Configurations 4860-004 - System unit w. 64kb, 62 key IR keyboard, two cartridge slots 4860-067 - System unit w. 128kb (includes 64kb memory and Display Expansion feature), 62 key IR keyboard, two cartridge slots, 5.25 inch 360kb FDD and adapter more details can be found at: http://www.can.ibm.com/helpware/4860.html There is also a fairly informative site at: http://www.pcenterprises.com/catjr/ -- Dan Rector

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 05:22 PM 10/29/98 -0600, Doug Yowza wrote: > >For your next aniversary, buy your wife a wireless LAN. I don't miss the >wires a bit. I recently built a new home, and I thought I was being so forward-thinking by wiring it with Cat5 - then I started reading about the low-cost wireless devices coming down the pike. I did install an Aironet bridge back to the office, though, delivering T-1-ish speeds through the 4 1/2 miles of air, and allowing roaming PCMCIA wireless nodes at home at the same time. ObCC: Some of my collection will be connected over this link. :-) - John

27 years, 7 months

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What is this? Strange keyboard

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> I was wondering through a trift store the other day and found a odd >keyboard. It's labeled "CompuNET 2000" and looks like a regular 101 key >keyboard for a PC but it has two extra cables with miniture phono plugs on >the ends. One with two contacts and the other with three. It also has two >phone jacks on the back of the keyboard. There are a couple of extra keys >on the board. One is marked PHONE and the other is marked LINE. Some of >the numeric key pad keys are marked REDIAL, MUTE, VOL, OPER, etc. anyone >know what this is for? It is - surprise! - a keyboard-phone. Those extra cables go to a headset, and the numeric keypad works as a DTMF dialer. Tim.

27 years, 7 months

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World Power Systems scam

by jfoust＠threedee.com

Does anyone recall the month and year the "World Power Systems" scam advertisement appeared in (was it?) Byte? - John

27 years, 7 months

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Kurzweil KVS

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

I would say it's probably more than 1%...but, is anyone here familiar with sound waves, and what human speech looks like waveform wise? > >On Thu, 29 Oct 1998, Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote: > >> Even the task of parsing the input stream to separate the words from each >> other has remained an elusive goal. That is a loarge part of why the >> current "dictation" systems remain unsuitable for transcription, closed >> captioning, aids for the deaf, etc. Even now, the best systems available >> require intense interaction between the speaker and the program. > >Yup, it's a *very* difficult problem. Basically, there's not a >straight-forward mapping between sound waves and what we hear. Even once >you do all of the relatively simple signal processing and word >recognition, you're left with the basically impossible task of context >analysis (which requires almost all of our brain to get right, and we >still blow it about 1% of the time). > >-- Doug > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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PCjr with no disk drive?

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Is a PS/1 machine considered to be in 'family one'? My school had a PS/1 486-25 (processor speed, not model#) Consultatnt (I think), that when the HD died, it booted to IBM BASIC. It was also able to access the drives, but was in ROM BASIC. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: PCjr with no disk drive? > Date: Thursday, October 29, 1998 10:09 PM > > the pcjr is like any other IBM family one machine in that it will boot to > basic unless it has a disk device or in the case of the pcjr, a cartridge > inthe slot. > > > In a message dated 10/29/98 9:08:03 PM US Eastern Standard Time, > ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: >

27 years, 7 months

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VAXStation cable pinouts

by kyrrin＠jps.net

At one time, I had the URL of a web site where the fellow had listed a method and pinouts to make a VAXStation II/GPX video cable complete with mouse and KB connections as well as video. Does anyone recall where this is? I can't seem to find it. Thanks. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)jps.net) (Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin) SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905) "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

27 years, 7 months

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PCjr with no disk drive?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

the pcjr is like any other IBM family one machine in that it will boot to basic unless it has a disk device or in the case of the pcjr, a cartridge inthe slot. In a message dated 10/29/98 9:08:03 PM US Eastern Standard Time, ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk writes: > At 09:08 AM 10/29/98 -0800, Sam said: > > > > >The PCjr had BASIC in ROM and didn't require a floppy to boot. > > > > Was the BASIC in a plug in cartridge and optional? > > There was BASIC in the ROMs on the motherboard, AFAIK. There was a > cartridge that contained some kinds of extended BASIC, and of course you > could also run BASIC from disk if you had the disk drive. >

27 years, 7 months

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eVay

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 07:50 PM 10/25/98 GMT, you wrote: >"alexzogh", formerly of Net$cape, has his teeth in that one, so don't >bother. I don't think I've seen him throw an auction on eBay yet, once >he had started bidding. Was he with Netscape? I thought he had some company of his own in Chicago? In any case, he doesn't win every auction he bids on (though, from what I've heard, he could). I know, because there have been a few I've beat him on. btw, rumour has it he's on this list. (Hi Alex! 8^) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 7 months

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ePay

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 12:50 AM 10/27/98 GMT, you wrote: >Yeah, but it's *such* a pisser when the sniping twit gets it for your >maximum plus 50 cents!! Like you'd say "Golly - I *really* want that >Altair that's autographed by the original designers, and I'll pay $5,550 >for it, but not $5,550.50!" I know I'm *way* too good at convincing >myself that my original bid was too low... And then there's always the I came across an ebay page that suggested a good way to find your true maximum: First pick what you think your max bid is, say $50. Now, close your eyes and imagine that the auction is over and someone got it for $51. How does that make you feel? If you're upset, set your maximum to say, $55 and try again. If the thought that someone would get it for $56 still gets you upset, do it again. If you get to $110, and the thought of someone getting it for $111 doesn't worry you, then you've found your true max. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 7 months

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ePay

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 01:44 PM 10/27/98 +1, you wrote: >Please ? The whole idea of sniping is just to avoide a real >competition situation. In fact, it may lower the price of >all 'needed' goods, because nobody will get a chance to top >the sniper. So a final price might have been higher. Very true. Assume your max for item X is $100. Opening bid is $1. You bid $100 on the first day, and the high bid is $1. Day 2, another bidder comes along and bids $20. You still have the high bid for $21. The other bidder sees that and tries again, this time putting in $40. Your bid is now $41. If, however, you wait 'til the last minute, the other bidder will bid $20 and that's it. You can come along at the last minute and snipe him for $21, saving you $20. Keep in mind, too, that not all categories get the inflated prices that the older computers get. I've got a box full of Donald Duck stuff (Rachel's birthday is 11/9) that I got at prices ranging from decent to outright theft. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 7 months

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ebay

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 12:51 PM 10/26/98 -0800, you wrote: >An alternate to eBay is needed. The answer to sniping is to keep bidding open until no bids have been received for x minutes. That's the way some of the reputable collectible auction houses do it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 7 months

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ebay

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 08:17 PM 10/26/98 +1, you wrote: >Just a NO. Maybe I'm stupid and old fashionated, >but sniping is just not possible. Yes it is. If there's something I really want, I generally have two browser windows open -- one to do frequent reloads on, and one with my info already entered and ready to submit. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 7 months

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Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sources (was RE:ebay)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 08:28 AM 10/27/98, you wrote: >cans for evidence. The court ruled that stuff thrown into the trash and and >placed on the public right of way (street) for pickup was publicly >available and no longer private property. Of course, many commercial trash As I recall, the police must wait until the authorized agents of a designated service company (i.e., the garbagemen) have put the potential evidence into their own container (garbage truck) before they can get at it. But, IANAL... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 7 months

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Dolphin (was Re: ebay)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 04:32 PM 10/27/98 +1, you wrote: >> No, I'm talking about the Dauphin DTR-1, a cute little 486-powered, >> pen-and-keyboard-capable portable computer. The "DTR" stands for >> "desktop replacement," which was overpromising a bit. As far as I >> know, there was no "DTR-2." I believe there was a DTR-2, though I don't know if it ever made it to production. Dauphin also made some more traditional laptops. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by netcafe＠pirie.mtx.net.au

-----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, 29 October 1998 8:54 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >[Using the transceiver section of an ethernet card] > >> I think it needs +-12v and +- 5v, but that's not a big problem. (Diskless >> workstation PSU) > >Well, the card might, but the transceiver section will almost certainly >only need one supply rail. It runs off an _isolated_ (to 1.5kV I think) >PSU on the card (there'll be a DC-DC converter on the card for this). >I've never seen such a converter than needs more than one supply voltage >input. Yep. Dead right. 12-15v dc to feed a dc-dc xvtr that produces 9v to run the NE8392C xcvr chip. >> > Did I mention that you'll need the data sheets on the transceiver chip? >> >> You did. Know a source? Online one preferably? > >Sure. Try the semiconductor manufacturers. AMD, National Semiconductor, >Philips, possibly. They should have the data sheets in pdf format to >download. I remember downloading the National Semiconductor >8390+8391+8392 data sheets about a year ago. Exactly as you recalled. I have the PDF files with data for the lot. Amongst other things, there is a page with a "Typical Application" which is a cct diagram of a what amounts to an AUI-Thin cable transceiver. Complete with pinouts of a typical pulse xfmr. Exactly what I needed. So I'm gonna build me a couple or three from bits of network cards. Should be able to do it on a piece of veroboard in about an hour or so. Cabling can be avoided by connecting the pins of a male 15pin d directly to the veroboard, then the whole thing can plug in to the ethernet AUI port on the back of the VAX. This has basically solved my problem, as I have several elcheapo ethernet cards laying about that can supply all the parts except the 15 pin male d. Thanks for your help. Cheers Geoff Computer Room Internet Cafe Port Pirie South Australia. netcafe(a)pirie.mtx.net.au

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 29, 18:23, Daniel T. Burrows wrote: > Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. > Now I get complaints > that I am never down at the house, but when I bring things down there to > work on they are in the way. Liz got quite shirty about the 20" monitor and the printer in the dining room. She seemed to think that ten printers was excessive, even when I pointed out that that was only one for every 3.5 systems. > take over one of the bedrooms and put a system in there. I even have a 4 > inch conduit running the 350 feet from the office to the house. It is > buried in the same trench as the power, phone, water, and sewer feed to the > office. It has been there for 4 years and I still have not run the coax > down to the house. That's OK, it took me two years to run the two serial lines from my room to the garage, and four more to do the coax. Now I have to run Cat5 as well... sometime. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 7 months

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Kurzweil KVS

by ddameron＠earthlink.net

Hi Doug and all, At 02:22 AM 10/29/98 -0600, you wrote: >On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, dave dameron wrote: > >> In a recent "Electronic Design" magazine, the column "40 years ago", there >> was an article about IBM and digitized speech. It is an interesting column, >> as well as Bob Pease's. > >Can you summarize the article? I can imagine a lot of ways to digitize >speech without a lot of RAM, but I'm curious about what they were doing in >the 50's with the data. I seem to remember things like "formant" >decomposition and analysis to be reasearch topics in the 70's. Come to >think of it, I don't even know when things like the FFT were invented, but >I thought even that was not until the 60's or so. > I don't have it anymore, it had a lot to do with sampling and compression, as they had only 32k memory. It appeared in the last 4 months, so the original article was in 1958. Maybe someone else can find it easily? -Dave

27 years, 7 months

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TRS-80 Model I

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 12:34 PM 10/25/98 -0800, you wrote: >When I was a kid I tho't that the keypad was incredibly lame because it >didn't have a comma key. The only thing I would ever use it for would have >been typing in numbers in DATA statements so it seems like a dumb idea. Well, as someone who learned 10-key touch before I learned to type, the idea of a comma on the keypad does not seem so obvious. More important was the plus, minus, and period keys, for true data entry. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 7 months

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TRS-80 emulators

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

>So, to come back on topic, the best for a TRS-80 >emulator is still DOS. Install it, or even boot Dunno if this link is still up, or if it's old news, but try http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/emulators.htm and see what you get. Interestingly enough, I used to have the URL for a Model III emulator that ran on the Atari ST. You could then get the ST emulator for DOS.... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 7 months

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Personal Replies to Sender Was: RE: DOS disks?

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Briefly, here could be a solution to us inadvertently posting what should be private replies to our whole list: Can listproc on the U. of Wash. server be set so that the "Reply to:" field defaults to original poster and not to ClassicCmp? For example, Majordomo software running on a server handling a different list I am a member of is set this way. Therefore a reply will go to the previous sender in a msg thread. If the message is to go to the whole list then we simply type the "r-390(a)qth.net" address into either the "To:" or "CC:" field. Works very well it seems. FYI: 'R-390' is the military nomenclature of a high performance military surplus shortwave receiver that is truly a "classic" as far as its owners are concerned. I would even wager that Wm. Donzelli may have one too. As the reasoning that the message should always go to the list, we should just remember to specify the ClassicCmp addr. in the "To:" or "CC:" field. If we do not see a msg we intended for the list come up in our own email Inbox later then we know that we accidentally forgot and then have the option of reconsidering sending it to the whole list. This will help keep personal stuff such as discussing a deal to buy/sell something from the rest of the world --or those flames that get thrown around which nobody here appreciates. I'm still waiting for M$ s/w that works well. Whatever happened to Bill Whitson anyway? Regards, Chris At 13:48 10/29/98 +0000, Julian Richardson <JRichardson(a)softwright.co.uk> wrote: >>> oops, that was supposed to go to Sam only. >>> ELM needs a "reply to sender" key. > >*sigh*. In exchange the menu option is "reply to sender" but that >replies to the list, despite the name of the original sender appearing >in the "from" column. One day MS will write some software that works... >(OK, so that's completely off-topic... but it won't be so much ten years >from now... look at it as being ahead of its time... :) > >cheers > >Jules >> >> >> > Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/freenet/a/awa/

27 years, 7 months

4
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Microvaxen bits etc.

by dburrows＠netpath.net

> >The first paragraph sounds familiar. Liz complained about the black cable >snaking along the landing -- even though she finally got email and remote >printer access out of it -- because it was "ugly black" RG58, as she put >it. She wasn't at all impressed with a bright blue AUI drop cable paired >with bright yellow thick ethernet. I just thought she'd be pleased with >something prettier... I know the problem all to well. They just have no sense of humor on such things. I moved all of my equipment to mobile homes I use for office and storage. 4 now soon to be 7 all sandwiched together. Now I get complaints that I am never down at the house, but when I bring things down there to work on they are in the way. Now that the kids are off to college I plan to take over one of the bedrooms and put a system in there. I even have a 4 inch conduit running the 350 feet from the office to the house. It is buried in the same trench as the power, phone, water, and sewer feed to the office. It has been there for 4 years and I still have not run the coax down to the house. Dan

27 years, 7 months

1
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Microvaxen bits etc.

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Oct 29, 21:26, Tony Duell wrote: > Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. > > You guys are both lucky. I inherited 600' of _bright orange_ (day-glo) > > 10Base2 cable that my wife will barely allow in the *garage*... > > > > Oh, my parents (who own the house that's full of my little collection) > prefer bright cables as they're less likely to trip over any temporary > cabling I happen to have plugged together... The first paragraph sounds familiar. Liz complained about the black cable snaking along the landing -- even though she finally got email and remote printer access out of it -- because it was "ugly black" RG58, as she put it. She wasn't at all impressed with a bright blue AUI drop cable paired with bright yellow thick ethernet. I just thought she'd be pleased with something prettier... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

27 years, 7 months

2
1
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Kurzweil KVS

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Voice _activated_ or voice _operated_? I could easily imagine a type writer turning on when you talk to it, but not a typewriter that can understand speech. Though, with a housefull of tubes, it could probably be done... > >I saw a reference to a voice-activated typewriter that was patented in 1916. >(No, that is not a typo.) Unforunately the site isn't in my bookmark file >or if it is, the reference isn't easily accessible. > >-- Derek > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

3
2
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Ohio Scientific (fwd)

by franke＠sbs.de

> > P.S.: has anybody som OSI stuff for sale ? > And for years I thought, based on responses from a.f.c, > that I was the only person in the world who cared for > OSI equipment! > Since there are some interested people, let me repeat > a question that I have asked on the net before: > Does anyone have a complete working copy of OS-65u, > the multi-user OS for the C3 and C4 series? If you do, > please contact me! No. Anything I have is a C1P Board (build nicly in a Childrens school desk :) and a fitting OSI video board and some casette soft. I wanted to have one when OSI was a big thing, but I hadn't the money - and now I can't find any. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Nixie stuff (Was: Re: A Proposal (was...))

by zmerch＠30below.com

At 12:23 PM 10/28/98 -0600, you wrote: >ObCC: I picked up a Burroughs C3207 calc the other day. Nixie tubes and >transistors. It doesn't go, and I have no idea how to make it go again. >All I know is that Nixies are high-voltage, so I'm reluctant to poke my >fingers in there. I seem to remember there was a single Nixie tube for sale on Haggle.com... for around $3.00 or so (at the time...) Don't they run on 170 volts or somesuch wild figure??? "Merch"

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> good at it) and you don't have to worry about running a black coax cable >> Who said anything about a black cable? I use yellow cable for ethernet as >> God intended :-). > You guys are both lucky. I inherited 600' of _bright orange_ (day-glo) > 10Base2 cable that my wife will barely allow in the *garage*... 200m ? gee what a nice source for delay :) Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Personal Replies to Sender Was: RE: DOS disks?

by franke＠sbs.de

> --- "Hans Franke" wrote: > Does anybody remember a 'INTEL' video game ? I have > aquired today a unit named 'INTEL UNIVERSAL TELE PLAY'. > --- end of quote --- > Is this the same as the "Intellivision?" No (of course I know the Intelivision :). I just try to get any information - and 22 years are a long time ago. I also have some considerations about 'INTEL' - did they do it, or just a kind of lable hobo ? The mark used consists of all capital letters, while the upper bar of the T covers the whole word. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Personal Replies to Sender Was: RE: DOS disks?

by franke＠sbs.de

> [List is no longer being maintaied] > Ehehehehe... Anarchy! Nothing to laugh about. Anarchy works great. Take this list great people, great stuff - or take the Internet itself - beside some stupid gouvenment issues and some want-to-be-bosses its pure Anarchy - and great. Anarchie never ment to be without rules just without f****** rulers. Gruss Hans TBOTA: Does anybody remember a 'INTEL' video game ? I have aquired today a unit named 'INTEL UNIVERSAL TELE PLAY'. Acording to the chip dates the base unit (there is only the video logic and the connectors inside) must be manufactured around 1976. The two modules (here is the processor) I got, SUPERSTAR (a collection of Pong alikes) and TANK are from 1977 and 1978. The unit is very nicely, a plastic case with metall plates, 4 switches (on/of and 3 game dependant), a Start (Reset) Button and even a numeric keypad to select games. Funny numbering on the keypad: 159 260 37* 48= maybe taken from an old calculator. The base unit has a German/English mixture of labels, while the modules (cassetes) are only in english. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Personal Replies to Sender Was: RE: DOS disks?

by Marion.Bates＠Dartmouth.EDU

--- "Hans Franke" wrote: Does anybody remember a 'INTEL' video game ? I have aquired today a unit named 'INTEL UNIVERSAL TELE PLAY'. --- end of quote --- Is this the same as the "Intellivision?"

27 years, 7 months

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Ohio Scientific (fwd)

by franke＠sbs.de

> More to the point on OSI hardware, I have a C4P motherboard > and service manual somewhere in storage. At one time, when I was > almost exclusively into 6502's, I had entertained the notion of > building enough stuff to make this board do *something* useful. > I no longer have the time to even consider such a project. I am > writing to poll for interest among OSI collectors for such a beast. > It's not a computer, only the mainboard. If you don't have a C4P > already, this is of virtually no use. I have never even powered > it on. > If there are any takers, I will make an effort to dig it out. HERE! No, I have no C4P, but I still would like to get this board. Maybe I can dig up other parts over the next years. Wasn't the C4P Board already a complete computer ? At least thats what I remember. So adding a Terminal and a PSU might be a first step to check condition. Please tell me what you ask for it. Or tell me What kind of trade you might be interested. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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PCjr with no disk drive?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

hmmm, strange option, as i've seen every pcjr with a disk drive installed including the two i own. i guess it could still be useful with a floppy because you could always run those programs on cartridges. i have no idea why the ps/1 was announced after the ps2. perhaps was just an afterthought. i've had people actually think that the ps/1 was "better" than the ps/2 just because it was first. david In a message dated 10/28/98 9:07:44 PM US Eastern Standard Time, maxeskin(a)hotmail.com writes: > The disk drive was an option, like the hard drive on the XT. In my > PCjr manual, the disk drive manual is a separate booklet. The owner > was supposed to install it, I think. BTW, why is the PS/1 called that > if it came after the PS/2?

27 years, 7 months

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FS: Assembly Language on 360/370 book

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

To Owad wrote: > Assembly Language Fundamentals > 360/370, OS/VS, DOS/VS > by Rina & Joshua Yarmish > 768 pages, hardback > > $5 shipped. I'm interested. How much more to ship to UK? If the total is less than $10 I'll airmail you a bill. (Checks wallet) Damn. No $10 bills. Oh well, we'll sort something out. Haven't got much else to use my US currency on, after all... Philip. PS Sorry about the null post. I double-clicked the Reply button and this awful mail software took that as one click on Reply and one on Send. :-( PPS shall we keep the noise down and conclude our bargain in private e-mails?

27 years, 7 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!

by franke＠sbs.de

> < Address bus should be as wide as you think you might need plus a bit mor > < As Allison said (again! Why oh why did I delete her post?) you want you > < processor to be able to think about huge memories even if you can't buil > < them and have to swap to disk. > Actually the addres bus can be smaller than register size. For example > we could build an 80 bit machine with 60bit address busses. The 60 bits > is more than enough to address most likely memory needs for a long while > yet if you need to do address math or other math 80bit long registers may > make it much easier. The datapath bus can be any size as well but larger > is generally better. Just remember the enhancement of the /370 address space >from 24 Bit to 31 Bit (with a short intermediate phase of the 25 Bit machines - 16M user and 16M system RAM). And the funny thing is that still a mayor part of all /370 Software is only 24 Bit aware. > The assumption of symetry is likely the most false. Right. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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FS: Assembly Language on 360/370 book

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

27 years, 7 months

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Personal Replies to Sender Was: RE: DOS disks?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< "CC:" field. Works very well it seems. FYI: 'R-390' is the military < nomenclature of a high performance military surplus shortwave receiver t < is truly a "classic" as far as its owners are concerned. I would even wa That is one item that comes under the I'd give up a computer to keep. Those were real nice recievers. It could even displace my Allied AX190 (it's only 24years old). Allison

27 years, 7 months

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Ohio Scientific (fwd)

by franke＠sbs.de

>>>DEAR AARON: >>>I will be putting the computer on the e-bay auction >>>some time soon. The wieght is under 100lbs. I have >>>gotten a lot of e-mail on this item, i think the only fair >>>thing to do is give everyone a chance at it. >>>Thanks >>>Tom I got the same letter :( > This is what I call the height of hypocrisy. In other words: "I will be > trolling for the best price offered." Everyone should boycott this > transaction. Have a nice day! :) Jep, basicly you're right. Completely right. But help me, I WANT it. I don't know if I can hold myself from bidding. Without questioning I would offer some 200 USD which is good I think (good condition of the lot as a base). And I belive ePay could push me eventualy to some 400 or so USD (Takin the 'imagine what if' measurement). Sigh. Gruss H. P.S.: has anybody som OSI stuff for sale ? -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> I think I know at least 3 or 4 Germans who would like >>> to join and I guess there are a lot more. > If I may butt in... Perhaps there is a way you can do this. First, pick a > location that you think will be convenient for everyone, perhaps near the > chunnel(?) or near an airport. [...] > At the very least, you'll have 5 people getting together for a day of > BS'ing about old computers. At best, you'll have a decent first shot at > it, with the momentum to really do a bang-up job of it the following year. That describes exact the way I thought of it. I would start this way, but I'm just not in the UK ...and thats what the thing was about - I already had some talks to Wirtschaften (some Pubs) over here about this, and a meeting somewhere in spring might be reasonable. But it would be a Bavarian (German) mini VCF, and beside the travel distance for our UK list fellows, the Meeting language will be German, at least for most people, since the goal will still be to attract more visitors. Of course everybody is free to use what ever language is possible to talk, but if there is a programm of speaches to be made there will be problems. On the other side, we might attract new followers for the list. So, when only looking at the list I belive a UK (informal) meeting might have more members visiting than one in Bavaria. But feel free to prove me wrong. If there is a response, I will voluntere to organize it. Gruss Hans -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sour

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> Seams to be an attitude of all management - bann whatever >>> you don't undestand >> I think the attitude of many companies in the UK is "if we wanted to give >> it away we would do so, once we have decided to throw it away it stays >> thrown away". > Say you ran a company, and being a good collector and occasional dumpster > diver, you had a policy that anything broken could be taken home by > employees if the company decided they didn't want to fix it. So the > hacker employees are happy because they get some nice stuff they can fix > and use in their spare time. But what happens when employees start > intentionally breaking things, or worse, pulling small parts out of > equipment to make it look broke, so they can then take it home and replace > the missing fuse or chip? I think that is why you have the rather > seemingly unreasonable policies about discard equipment. Thats the simple way of avoiding any possibility, as far away it might be. An empolyee like you described could even in Germany, where we have very strict laws agains random kickin of employees, be fired winthin some days. AND will be responsible for any possible financial loss - Thats a bit like your cracy pruduct cases. So taking of parts is ok at most companies (with permission) but using them for profit (no, a single sale at a flea market is also not considered profit) could harm you more than being charged with murder. >> I think with the modern ideas about environmentally friendly disposal of >> waste it would be appropriate for the local authorities to turn a blind >> eye to 'scavengers' like ourselves and thus reduce the amount of useful >> stuff which ends up in landfill ;-) Of courese - extending the usage of any thing is the best environmental protection strategy (maybe without suizide), especialy with wares that used a lot of energy and other recources to produce - often a lot more in construction then at any time later - like cars or computers :) > Until one loathesome scavenger cuts a finger off on some particularly > sharp piece of metal and sues the owner, the trash company, the maker of > the trash container for not making it so they could get inside in the > first place, etc. (at least in the U.S.) Yes, and only in the US. Ok, our European product laws are maybe sometimes a bit week, but the combination of better rights for the customer and a very junky law system isn't helpful either. And worse, if we would bothe get hurt (in the US) I have to be lucky to get 1/20th of your payment ... American Courts are somewhat picky about the victims ... Gruss Hans P.S.: A surplus store has some PC-234 printers on sale. These are Printers for the TI-74 Basic handheld. They seem to be new or at least in very good shape in the original box. The price is some 85 Mark, so any interest ? -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Kurzweil KVS

by ddameron＠earthlink.net

Hi Doug and all, At 04:59 PM 10/28/98 -0600, you wrote: >On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: > >> Unless you used "1000 word vocab" to qualify the claim, in which case I >> still think there may be an earlier contender. Speech recongition goes >> back a long way, perhaps as far back as the 50s. > >Yes, commercial and 1000 word vocab were the qualifiers; let me know if >you still challenge the claim, otherwise it gets immortalized in a web >page soon. > >And given that AI didn't really get started until around 1960, and that >storage for digitized speech would have been very expensive back then, I'd >be interested in any references you could provide for speech recognition >way back in the 1950's. > In a recent "Electronic Design" magazine, the column "40 years ago", there was an article about IBM and digitized speech. It is an interesting column, as well as Bob Pease's. -Dave

27 years, 7 months

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DOS disks?

by JRichardson＠softwright.co.uk

>> oops, that was supposed to go to Sam only. >> ELM needs a "reply to sender" key. *sigh*. In exchange the menu option is "reply to sender" but that replies to the list, despite the name of the original sender appearing in the "from" column. One day MS will write some software that works... (OK, so that's completely off-topic... but it won't be so much ten years >from now... look at it as being ahead of its time... :) cheers Jules > > >

27 years, 7 months

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Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sour

by JRichardson＠softwright.co.uk

>>> I think the attitude of many companies in the UK is "if we wanted to give >>> it away we would do so, once we have decided to throw it away it stays >>> thrown away". >> >> Let me add a little perspective to this.

27 years, 7 months

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PCjr with no disk drive?

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

The disk drive was an option, like the hard drive on the XT. In my PCjr manual, the disk drive manual is a separate booklet. The owner was supposed to install it, I think. BTW, why is the PS/1 called that if it came after the PS/2? >drive, but instead a face plate covering the slot where the drive would >go? I saw such a thing today and was curious if there were ever any >PCjr's released without internal disk drives. Obviously this one was. > >The inside is rather bare as well. There is not the usual cards inside. > >I also saw what looked to be a very small IBM computer. It had all the >connectors on the back, for video, keyboard, printer. It also had two >3.5" bays side by side in the front. The front cover was missing so I >couldn't get any model number off it (not even on the label on the >bottom). The only thing I saw on the label was "Type 2100". I'm thinking >it might be a PS/1 or something. It was really small, measuring about 12" >wide by 3" high by 12" deep. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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Nixie stuff (Was: Re: A Proposal (was...))

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< > > Don't they run on 170 volts or somesuch wild figure??? < > < > A nixie tube is basically a neon bulb. It turns out that if you drive < > neon bulb from DC, then the cathode appears to glow, and the anode < > doesn't. A nixie tube has a number of cathodes in the shape of the < > required symbols (often, but not always, 0-9), and a mesh anode. < < Wow. I didn't know that. I thought you had to supply the Nixie with AC 160-250V DC, thought he dc does nto have to be wel filtered or regulate < I'll have to rig up some kind of ladder network, I guess. I have a boar A transformer with a 120v secondary and a voltage doubler will do. The current is very low, nominal series resistor is something like 47k. < out of an ancient calculator with 9 or 10 Nixie tubes (and a neon bulb < for the '-' sign). I've always wanted to fire it up, but never had the < time to build some kind of high-voltage BCD driver. This sounds like a That's where the work is. Back when those were used inexpensive HV transistors with a 100v breakdown were hard to find and ICs good for more tha 30V were scarce. So there were some creative tricks used depending on the specific tube used. < for a PIC, a kind of serial to Nixie driver. I could always drive it wi < an ancient UART (the kind that didn't need a CPU) and a pile ot TTL, bu < I think the PIC could keep the part count low. Uart and a small pile of ttl really. The bulk of the hardware will be the drivers unless you can use the 74141. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sour

by franke＠sbs.de

> I don't know what the law is in the UK regarding dustbins (trashcans) but > regarding skips (dumpsters) it is something like: > Person X makes a contract with a waste disposal contractor Y. Y delivers a > skip to X's premises, and probably leaves it in the road (at precisely the > worst place for motorists trying to get around it :-) ). X throws stuff > into the skip, but it remains X's property, and to pull it out is theft. > Eventually X has thrown in all he wants and phones up Y to collect the > skip. When Y does, the stuff in the skip becomes Y's property. Almost same for Germany, although the point of changing ownership is depending on the contract. In most cases the ownership changes when the item ist dumped, althrough no court will rule agains a dumping person when the item is taken back. The same is true for any public trashcan/ dustbin. As soon as it is droped it belongs to the owner of the dustbin. > At work, I used to skip-dive a lot. I was once told that I was breaking > the law because I had removed a Superbrain from the skip. Lucky one! > However, skip-diving is now officially banned. I > have been quite strongly warned off several times, once for just looking at > the skip! The warnings came from quite high up, passed down through my > boss. Seams to be an attitude of all management - bann whatever you don't understand. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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"A Brief History of Computers"

by foxvideo＠wincom.net

>Date: Thu, 29 Oct 1998 06:37:24 -0500 >To: rax@warbaby.com;classiccmp@u.washington.edu >From: "Charles E. Fox" <foxvideo(a)wincom.net> >Subject: "A Brief History of Computers" > > > Hi, Robert: > > Having downloaded and read your piece, I would say it is a very good effort. I like, and try to emulate, the light way of writing but would suggest going easy on material not directly relevant...can openers, for instance. > I think it is readable by the technologically challenged, for it would be hard to find anyone more technologically challenged than I am, and I enjoyed it. > > Cheers > > Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions email foxvideo(a)wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo

27 years, 7 months

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Fw: Osborne One Sale

by jolminkh＠nsw.bigpond.net.au

This ad was in an Australian newsgroup. Turns out that the guy is "west of Olympia, Washington" He didn't say what country, so I assume he is American. They sometimes don't know the rest of the world exists. Someone else might be closer than me and also interested in this. -----Original Message----- From: w536(a)westsound.com <w536(a)westsound.com> Newsgroups: aus.ads.forsale.computers.used Date: Wednesday, 28 October 1998 16:51 Subject: Osborne One Sale >I have 3 Osborne Ones, > >1 ... white / blue case with modem and case fan ... working >1 ... white / blue case ... not presently working >1 ... brown case.... not presently working ... > > >If interested please contact through email for more information ... > >I use to work on these years ago so I have some knowledge about the >hardware, software, memory, ROM etc. > >Bill ... w536(a)westsound.com > > > >-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==---------- >http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

27 years, 7 months

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TRS Model 100 needed

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 07:02 AM 10/17/98 -0700, you wrote: >How much should a working TRS Model 100 laptop computer cost? (I'm >thinking of getting one for a portable amateur packet setup)? Anywhere from $5 to $200, depending on options, condition, venue... I got a 32K model in nice shape at a flea market for $14 (Thanks Rax!), and have paid over $100 for a mint condition one, with RJ-11 cable, acoustic cups, tape player, 32K, hard shell case, floppy, manuals, slip case, etc. If you just want one to use, you should be able to get one pretty quick for $50 or so. If you're willing to wait, you may find one at a thrift shop or flea market for much less. Keep in mind, also, that other versions are available: The Nec PC-8201, PC-8201a, PC-8300, Olivetti M-10, Kyocera KC-85, TRS-80 Model 102 and Model 200 all are either very similar or identical. Note that the NEC PC-8401A, Olivetti M-15, and Radio Shack Model 600 are *not* related, other than in similar names. Also, I would be more than happy to trade a true m100 for pretty much any of the others (except maybe the PC-8201a) along with some cash if they didn't suit your needs (not enough memory, no modem, etc.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 7 months

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Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Wasn't this posted this already? ---------- > From: Brett <danjo(a)xnet.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf > Date: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 9:41 PM > > > What - you got one too???? Now I can not swear it is Sammie's handiwork > but after get a copy of the Unsubscribe message from the listproc admin > I am pretty sure I will be able to hunt down the source. It's more of > a nuisance attack anyway... Tho I think DOS is more like it.... >

27 years, 7 months

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Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf

by danjo＠xnet.com

What - you got one too???? Now I can not swear it is Sammie's handiwork but after get a copy of the Unsubscribe message from the listproc admin I am pretty sure I will be able to hunt down the source. It's more of a nuisance attack anyway... Tho I think DOS is more like it.... > From listproc(a)u.washington.edu Wed Oct 28 11:45:06 1998 > Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:22:33 PST > From: University of Washington ListProcessor <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> > To: danjo(a)xnet.com > Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > > Dear user, > > your request > > UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > > has been successfully processed. > > You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP(classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). > Thank you for being with us. BC

27 years, 7 months

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Armiton

by dogas＠leading.net

Does anyone have a spare (Radio Shack circa '84/5) Armitron. It was a robot arm toy. An interfacing project with an Atari 800 never got off the ground back then and I would like to finally follow through... Thank Mike dogas(a)leading.net

27 years, 7 months

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Dumpster Diving was Re: Washington DC area vintage sour

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

> >On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Pete Joules wrote: > >> > Seams to be an attitude of all management - bann whatever >> > you don't undestand >> >> I think the attitude of many companies in the UK is "if we wanted to give Indeed. Too bad people must always abuse a privelege > >Let me add a little perspective to this. > >Say you ran a company, and being a good collector and occasional dumpster >diver, you had a policy that anything broken could be taken home by >employees if the company decided they didn't want to fix it. So the >hacker employees are happy because they get some nice stuff they can fix >and use in their spare time. But what happens when employees start >intentionally breaking things, or worse, pulling small parts out of >equipment to make it look broke, so they can then take it home and replace >the missing fuse or chip? I think that is why you have the rather >seemingly unreasonable policies about discard equipment. > >> I think with the modern ideas about environmentally friendly disposal of Judging from the labels on dumpsters, this has already happened. "Do not play in or around dumpster" > >Until one loathesome scavenger cuts a finger off on some particularly >sharp piece of metal and sues the owner, the trash company, the maker of >the trash container for not making it so they could get inside in the >first place, etc. (at least in the U.S.) > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Ever onward. > > Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 09/21/98] > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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Ohio Scientific (fwd)

by aaron＠wfi-inc.com

---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 17:28:06 EST >From: AZOTIC(a)aol.com >To: aaron(a)wfi-inc.com >Subject: Re: Ohio Scientific > > >DEAR AARON: > >I will be putting the computer on the e-bay auction >some time soon. The wieght is under 100lbs. I have >gotten a lot of e-mail on this item, i think the only fair >thing to do is give everyone a chance at it. > >Thanks >Tom Maybe we should hold a betting pool for how much this one goes for? I'll say....$875. Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." --> Scott Draves

27 years, 7 months

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UK VCF (Was: Re: Any *really* homebrewing going on?)

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 08:45 AM 10/20/98 -0700, you wrote: >> I think I know at least 3 or 4 Germans who would like >> to join and I guess there are a lot more. If I may butt in... Perhaps there is a way you can do this. First, pick a location that you think will be convenient for everyone, perhaps near the chunnel(?) or near an airport. Then, find a pub, restaurant, whatever with a decent sized meeting room and convince them to let you hold it there for free. (Often, they'll do this because they figure attendees will buy lots of beer/food/whatever.) Next, pick a date. Get together with your core 5 and find a mutually agreeable date. Plan for 1 day the first time. Let people know about it, arrange for some computers to be on display, maybe a speaker or two, dig up some vendors, and go for it. Costs should be minimal -- printing some flyers, maybe. Income will be minimal too (perhaps charge vendors a small fee) but can be used as seed money for the following year. At the very least, you'll have 5 people getting together for a day of BS'ing about old computers. At best, you'll have a decent first shot at it, with the momentum to really do a bang-up job of it the following year. I think starting out with higher goals worked here because of the high concentration of techies in the Silicon Valley. Over there, I think a more modest start makes more sense. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 7 months

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DOS disks?

by ckaiser＠oa.ptloma.edu

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 929 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/19981027/5bc13fcc/at…

27 years, 7 months

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Another thought on 10baseT vs 10Base2: was Re: Microvaxen bits etc.

by go＠ao.com

I just had to stick in my 2.1 cents worth (inflation, you know...) on this issue. I will *never again* use 10base2 for plant wiring for the simple reason that 10base2 (and 10base5) provide a ready path for "ground loops" between all the equipment sharing the cable. It's true that the "grounds" are "supposed" to be isolated (to the tune of several Kvolts) from the computer connection, but, believe me: "sh*t happens." And the results can be dangerous. 10baseT is designed to be isolated at every connection point in the "star" configuration (high-isolation transformer coupling,) so there is a much less likely path for the "big ugly voltage" from one piece of defective equipment that just happens to be shorted to the Ethernet 10base2 cable. You don't get killed when you reach behind your computer and grab the Ethernet cable and suddenly find it has 480vac on it due to some stupid short in a control cabinet. If the 10baseT cable is shorted, the hub has a high potential, but it never makes it out to any of the other cables plugged into the hub. Both of these scenarios assume correctly isolated cable-to-interface connections. It's just there is nothing isolating the bad stuff from you when you touch the cable shield. The necessary hub on 10baseT keeps the bad stuff from getting past the first short - assuming you *do* use a hub... And making 10baseT connections (with the proper 50US$ tool) is MUCH FASTER than making coax connections, if speed is important. Of course, the better (best?) approach is 10baseF, but it isn't readily available for us with home installations (at least not at the price *I* want to pay.) Gary

27 years, 7 months

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Noise levels have become deaf

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Exactly what I do to other loud-mouthed salesmen. If they want to babble about crap, go the the neighbor's house. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Bill Richman <bill_r(a)inetnebr.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf > Date: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 10:55 AM > > Hmm... Looks like Sweet Sam decided that if he couldn't shout me down, he'd > just slam the door in my face. What a guy! > > --- > > Return-Path: <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> > Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:21:11 PST > Reply-To: listproc(a)u.washington.edu > Sender: listproc(a)u.washington.edu > From: University of Washington ListProcessor <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> > To: bill_r(a)inetnebr.com > Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > X-UIDL: ee07c31fcdb321395d34af85335a15b0 > > Dear user, > > your request > > UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > > has been successfully processed. > > You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP (classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). > Thank you for being with us. > > > > Bill Richman > incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r > (Home of the COSMAC Elf > microcomputer simulator!) >

27 years, 7 months

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FS: Assembly Language on 360/370 book

by tomowad＠earthlink.net

I was considering keeping this, but I came to the realization it is incredibly unlikely I'll ever have the desire to learn assembly on the 360. :-) Assembly Language Fundamentals 360/370, OS/VS, DOS/VS by Rina & Joshua Yarmish 768 pages, hardback $5 shipped. Tom Owad -- Sysop of Caesarville Online Client software at: <http://home.earthlink.net/~tomowad/>

27 years, 7 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Address bus should be as wide as you think you might need plus a bit mor < As Allison said (again! Why oh why did I delete her post?) you want you < processor to be able to think about huge memories even if you can't buil < them and have to swap to disk. Actually the addres bus can be smaller than register size. For example we could build an 80 bit machine with 60bit address busses. The 60 bits is more than enough to address most likely memory needs for a long while yet if you need to do address math or other math 80bit long registers may make it much easier. The datapath bus can be any size as well but larger is generally better. The assumption of symetry is likely the most false. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

-----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, 28 October 1998 14:19 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >Oh well... Another useful product becomes unavailable thanks to progress... > Seems that way. I may have found a source of new ones, but the price is a bit much. S/H ones seem to disappear as soon as they come out of service. >> Most network cards produced these days don't have AUI ports on them. >Yes, a lot of them are 10 base T only. Even though (IMHO) 10 base 2 makes >more sense for a small home network (no need to have a hub) and BNC plugs >are a lot easier to wire than those RJ45 things. Oh, RJ45's are no problem provided you have a decent tool. I use crimp on BNC's as well. I have a mix of both on my home network and at my shop. The school is all cat 5 now. >Fortunately, I got a load of transceivers at a radio rally with minor >faults (mostly open-circuit connections on the BNC connector). Lucky boy. >If there's a 16 pin chip near the BNC connector marked 83C92 or something >like that, then it can be made into a transceiver. You can either raid >the bits off the card or (Hey, a good idea...): >A lot of cards have 6 links that you have to move to select between AUI >and 10 base 2. They simply link the appropriate signals from the logic on >the card either to the AUI connector or to the internal transceiver. It >should be possible to feed signal from an AUI 'input' to the right pins >on those links, apply power (you probably only need the +12V line) to the >card and avoid a lot of work. <GRIN> Actually, this thought also crossed my mind whilst gazing at just such a card. I'm going to try that. I have an NE2000 clone card I'm going to try and convert to a txcvr. I think it needs +-12v and +- 5v, but that's not a big problem. (Diskless workstation PSU) >If you want to try this, then you'll need to trace out the schematic >around the links. It's worth knowing that most of the pulse transformers >used to isolate the logic signals at the transceiver contain 3 little >transformers in a 16 pin DIL package on pins (1,2,15,16), (5,6,12,13), >(7,8,9,10). Yep, can see them. >Trace the secondaries to the transceiver chip and then you >know what each transformer section is for (one will be Tx Data, one >RxData, one Collision). Alternatively, trace the link connections to the >ethernet chip on the card, but it may be more difficult to get data on >that. Not even gonna try. A direct patch into the txcvr from the AUI port with a little xover cabling ought to do it. > Did I mention that you'll need the data sheets on the transceiver chip? You did. Know a source? Online one preferably? >The pinout is : <snip> Got it, thanks for that. >> connect them. > >The cable is special :-(. It's 4 twisted pairs + shields (which you link >to the ground pins). One of the twisted pairs is thicker than the other >3, and is used for power. I imagine most anything will probably work, provided the leads are kept short. I have some shielded audio stuff that should do nicely. Something to experiment and tinker with for a while. :^) Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)

27 years, 7 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

Hans Franke wrote: >>>> I therefore see address buses growing at 16 bits every 30 years. That's >>>> just over a bit every 2 years - slower than I expected but not much. >>>> Someone (I forget who) said that memory chips double in capacity every >>>> 18 months. This would give 16 bits in 24 years. > >>> Interesting szenario, especialy when connected to the Mores Law >>> (didn't he tell this regarding integration ?). > >> Thanks. That's the one I'm thinking of - the amount of memory you get on >> the same area of silicon doubles every 18 months. > > Basicly I think its about integrations and transistor > equivalents, but this is just linear to the size of memorys. > > In fact, to come back to the original question, Arfon > just took doubling of address space and doubbling of > data bus width for the same thing, but in fact they > are two different functions - widening data bus is > linear, while widening address bus is to the square > (sorry, my mathematical english just stops here). > This means doubble the data bus just doubbles the > date transfer rate (the only thing the data bus is > needed for) or w'=w+w. But doubbling the address bus > is putting the address range (and thats what the > address bus is for) to the square or r'=r*r. > > So, while a 256 or 512 bit data bus is usefull (and > already in use in main frames - only called data path), > even a 128 Bit address bus is just nonsense. Hmm. "Square" isn't the best way of putting it. In English we generally call that an "exponential" or "power" function: for an address bus of n bits the size of the memory is 2^^n words (pronounced "two to the power of n"). That's what I was getting at in my post. I agree totally that data paths should be as wide as possible. It wasn't just vaxen (Good post, Allison. A lot of very good points that I hadn't thought of) and mainframes that did that - the PERQ was a 16 or 20 bit machine but the memory data path was 64 bits wide (Help! Tony, you know more about this!) and fetched 4 words at a time for the processor to chew on, then 4 words for the video, 4 words for the I/O etc. Huge increase in speed. Address bus should be as wide as you think you might need plus a bit more. As Allison said (again! Why oh why did I delete her post?) you want your processor to be able to think about huge memories even if you can't build them and have to swap to disk. Philip.

27 years, 7 months

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A Proposal (was - Re: Noise levels increasing and....)

by franke＠sbs.de

>> What's the point in proposing another list? If you want to try the >> experiment, build it. Make it happen. > Read the proposal. It isn't strictly a separate list. It is a list > connected by a one-way umbilical cord to the current list. It can't be > done by just creating another list. It has to be done on the current > server. Whether the list software is malleable enough to be shaped to the > task, I do not know. I am leaving it to others to comment on the > technical issue. The idea is to experiment and create a parallel flood > channel for certain things that run hot for a couple of weeks but are not > completely on topic. I don't think this is a "bozo" idea, and I hope you > will ponder its implications for more than a few minutes. I belive your idea could still be done on a second server. For your proposed testrun, a real check about the members of ClassicCmp to allow access for the sidebar list is not needed. The listserver will only be made public thru this list, so any subscription from outside is kind of uncommon. And even if there are some few, they shouldn't change the result in a real way. If the idea is right, an add on for the 'real' server might be made. Or we keep the second and just exchange the member list every other week to check the data base and we get another foot to stay on. Merging both lists into one folder should be no problem for any mail client out there (also splitting it up again into several theme folders). Gruss Hans P.S.: No, Steve, no comment on the subject, it's just a technical response. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Doug and the Zuses (was:Re: KEITH, WE HARDLY KNEW YOU w

by franke＠sbs.de

>> Oh, did they pull of the DDR 1 Meg chip from display ? >> I belive this is the most funny Display _and_ a thing >> to think about with its implications. > They still had that display, but I don't remember falling over due to its > implications. Maybe the sign was in (East) German. What did I miss? (A > museum of eastern european technology would be pretty cool.) I might be proved wrong, but I belive this chip had a vital role to turn down the wall. In 1985 the Eastern German government decided that they had to pull up with a 1 Meg chip to show that their system is able to do all the same fine things than the west, all of us might temember that the 1 Meg thing was kind of journalists pussy when talking about the future back then. They already cloned the 80286. For the next years they poured all resources within electronic and process development into this project. It was almost like the idea of building a a PDP-8 >from scratch that has been around :) Of course, they already had a technology to produce 64k and prototype 256k, but without any help from outside it's kind of uncomfortable. Short before the wall came down, they finished, but at what cost: the whole development was sucked up into this single project - anything els was almost like stopped even production of actual components suffered. So this project added a lot to the economoc problems witch eventualy lead to the end of their system You know - people without video games and home computers tend to think about dangerous things (<g>). I'm not telling that this development has been the mayor reason, but it added stress to an already stressed system. Gruss Hans P.S.: There are only parts of the Z23 on display in Bonn - basicly only the drumm and drumm controll (AFAIR) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> even breaking the lists in two - on and off topic >>> so that ppl with common interests can also talk about other things (like >>> experiences) >>> both lists would die though > I actually had a similar thought and it could work. Is it > possible to create an off-topic mailing list that is not publicly > advertised and cannot be subscribed to unless one were already a > subscriber to the on-topic one? Those that want the on-topic list > could get that, those who want both would get both and no one could > subscribe to only the off-topic one. The unwritten rule is that no new > topic could be spontaneously generated on the off-topic one and the > only new threads allowable would be those banished from the on-topic list. > Of course threads would be allowed to meander and mutate once they were > released to the off-topic list. This is just a thought. It certainly > would allow for these brief hot torrents of opinion on semi off-topic > material to run their course without inconveniencing those who wish to > only see hardcore tech info. The off-topic list would be like a sidebar > only accessible to those who read the on-topic one. Nice talk, but just think how hard it seams to be just to change the Subject line at the right moment AND to get all participants into changing it - not to mention the time delay. This is just an international thing - when I get up and have a first look at it Allison is still sleeping, Uncle Roger (or the other US West Coast guys) are just about to find their sleeping position, while Olminkhof is right about to leave the office - I've seen these things from other lists and news groups. It is just impossible. It is even impossible to live such a policy within a worldwide collaboration tool for a project. Even when corporate and special rules try to enforce it. And Moderation is just the dead of any list (maybe beside a anouncement list for 0190 (1-900) services, where they don't need any spontanous answer. >> This is not IRC, it is a mailing list. There is no need to use the >> silly little abbreviations designed to "speed up" on-line chat and >> the typing of same. Use English or as close an approximation as you >> can. Capital letters help as well as punctuation -- a carriage return Thank you. I hope I'm not hurting your eyes to hard. Fact is that some abbrevation like SCNR or AFAIK/R are thruout usefull, and fixed, so they can be used like IBM or VAX. But, I also dislike this ur2slw4me stuff - I need twice the to read it than regular. > Hey---just kidding around!! There are times this list > seriously lacks any sense of humor. It is ? I found some real good ones in the list :) Gruss H. P.S.: and for NINE mails in one day - I prefer to answer or comment directly, just to keep it small (ok, ok, I know I tend to elaborate whole bibles if I like something) and simple. Writing a mail composing several themes - what should it be named ? - where should it link ? And who will read it ? Just beside from the problem I would have to use additional word processing tools to combine it with the impossibility to keep an overview - I still have to do some regular job in my spare time. P.P.S.: Satisfied ? -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Classiccmp Friendly Pinout Page Update/Request

by aaron＠wfi-inc.com

Ok, I've gotten most of my stash transcribed into text documents on the site. The exception is the bus section, which contains a list of those pinouts that I have but am still working on. Anyway, what this really is is a request to people to dig through their piles of old docs and add some pinouts that aren't there yet. Tony Duell has offered to do PERQ machines, and anyone is welcome to contribute anything that's not there already. I put a file in the "pinouts" directory named "contributors.txt" which contains specific info about who is working on what. Please respond to me privately about this. URL: http://www.prinsol.com/classiccmp/ Aaron C. Finney Systems Administrator WFI Incorporated ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "UNIX is an exponential algorithm with a seductively small constant." --> Scott Draves

27 years, 7 months

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DOS disks?

by JRichardson＠softwright.co.uk

>> When I typed "system disk" I meant one >> with an appropriate collection of utilities, which with code bloat >> can be hard to fit on a 720k disk -- since "edit" needs "?basic" etc. Get the GNU DOS port of vi - has the benefit of being a standard, very powerful, reliable and takes up 120KB or so (OK, that's a lot more than ideal for an editor, but at least you don't need all the extra garbage that you have to have with standard MS-DOS 'edit') - of course, if you've never used vi before, you're gonna hate it :) (not wanting to kick off an off-topic thread in light of the current 'problems' on this list, anyone know how to get MS exchange client 4 to do the auto-include of the '>' quote chars above? I'm sick of having to do it by hand! Email privately, please! :) cheers Jules

27 years, 7 months

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DOS disks?

by zmerch＠30below.com

At 04:25 PM 10/28/98 -0000, you wrote: >Get the GNU DOS port of vi - has the benefit of being a standard, very >powerful, reliable and takes up 120KB or so (OK, that's a lot more than >ideal for an editor, but at least you don't need all the extra garbage >that you have to have with standard MS-DOS 'edit') - of course, if >you've never used vi before, you're gonna hate it :) [snip] Well, not if you're accustomed to TS-EDIT on the Tandy Color Computers! vi is a superset (I believe -- been a long time since I used TS-EDIT) but the CoCo clone is a fairly complete implementation of it. One thing about vi / TS-EDIT: 'tis a pain in the rear to use, until you get accustomed to the commands. If you do become highly accustomed to editor, you can go *very fast* with it. Boy, I miss those good old days... ;-) "Merch"

27 years, 7 months

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8 inch floppies on PC's (was: TRS-80 Model II stuff!)

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> For anyone interested (Larry).... I am going home (to Virginia) for >thanksgiving and I will pull out one of my model IIs and get all of the >still useable software and manuals. I will make copies available to >anyone who wants if someone can tell me how to copy the 8" discs to a file >on a PC (either using Linux or Dos). > I can serial port the machines togethet but, I have no idea how to read >off all the sectors of the 8 inches. This is a question that has been dealt with very thoroughly in the past. Sydex (http://www.sydex.com/) has some very excellent software available for dealing with "foreign" floppy formats, and can deal with many (but not all) 8" floppy formats. Instead of going into great detail on how to use these tools, I will instead just refer you to the CP/M FAQ at http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/CPM-faq/faq.html specifically, Q14: "Can I read my 8" disks with my PC?" I hope nobody takes this reply as a brush-off as a result of a good fraction of my business coming from reading old media, including (but by no means limited to) 8" floppy disks. Even though references to non-mailing-list resources seem to very sparse on the CLASSICCMP mailing list, I just want folks to know that there *are* very useful FAQ's out there that deal with the issue thoroughly already. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 7 months

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Road trip/vintage sources

by dcoward＠pressstart.com

Tim said: >One decent source in the area is the Terrapin Trader, the University >of Maryland's surplus outlet in College Park. For more info, see > > http://www.inform.umd.edu/PURCHASE/terptrad/ > Thanks Tim. Speaking of road trips: Next month I going to take my two weeks vacation to retrieve our belongings from storage in Manassas Virginia, where we left them 11 years ago. I'm excited to be finally getting my two analog computers out here to California. Anyway, we will be driving back to California from Nov 14-22. I'm hoping to stop at a few places on the way back, looking for (real old) computer stuff. We already plan to stop in Pennslyvania,Ohio - Lima and Aurora, Michigan - Benton Harbor and Ann Arbor,Chicago,St. Louis,and New Mexico - Albuquerque. If anyone knows of good places to look, and want to share the secret, let me know. What kind of places? Places that dark and dirty. Places with junk arranged in piles. Places with vacuum tube equipment. (I would love to find an example of a vacuum tube analog computer) Places you won't want your kids to play in. On another note: Does anyone in Florida have more information about the plans to tear down the original control room at the Kennedy Space Center? (It was on the news) ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA =========================================

27 years, 7 months

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Noise levels have become deaf

by danjo＠xnet.com

What - you got one too???? Now I can not swear it is Samnie's handiwork but after get a copy of the Unsubscribe message from the listproc admin I am pretty sure I will be able to hunt down the source. It's more of a nuisance attack anyway... Tho I think DOS is more like it.... > From listproc(a)u.washington.edu Wed Oct 28 11:45:06 1998 > Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:22:33 PST > From: University of Washington ListProcessor <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> > To: danjo(a)xnet.com > Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > > Dear user, > > your request > > UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP > > has been successfully processed. > > You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP(classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). > Thank you for being with us. BC

27 years, 7 months

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Ohio Scientific C3 OEM available

by bill＠chipware.com

I have exchanged email with this guy already, seems like a nice guy. The machine is in Chicago. Correspond directly with him if interested. AZOTIC <azotic(a)aol.com> wrote: >Any one have an idea what a old >OHIO SCIENTIFIC OEM C-3 >is worth. 8" floppy drives. rs232 >terminal, tripple proccessors >even got the repair manuals. I >plugged it in, and it still works. >any collectors ? I need some new >toys.

27 years, 7 months

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Doug and the Zuses (was:Re: KEITH, WE HARDLY KNEW YOU was: Noise

by franke＠sbs.de

> I saw a Zuse 23 last week at the Deutsches Museum in Bonn. Pretty > cool (the first transitorized Zuse), but that was just about the only > classic computer they had on display. Oh, did they pull of the DDR 1 Meg chip from display ? I belive this is the most funny Display _and_ a thing to think about with its implications. Gruss Hans Disclaimer: And of coure, I told him to come to Munich and see the real stuff like a Z3 or 2002 (No, not the 70s BMW, but the first (or maybe second, if the Mailuefterl group is right) running fuly transistorised machine) but no, he just had the less interesting part ... :) -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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MS_DOS 2.11 (Was: DOS disks?

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

Very interesting! I learn something new every day! But, was the source available to the public? If not, it's not much different from NT now, which makes source available under an NDA. >MS-DOS 2.11 was a very special version. It was the one where Microsoft >explicitly supported OEM modifications. Even the source code to IO.SYS >was obtainable! Each manufacturer that had something weird could make >their mods to it. For example: PC-DOS 3.20 was the first one to support >720K floppies. But LOTS of MS-DOS 2.11 variants support 720Ks. (NOT ALL >WITH THE SAME DISK FORMAT!!) Or the manufacturer could modify IO.SYS so >that pressing Ctrl+Alt+Meta+CokeBottle switches to power-saving "suspend >mode", etc. > >Accordingly, 2.11 was usually tied to a given manufacturer. DG 2.11 was >not quite the same as Gavilan 2.11, etc. Typically, MODE.COM would be >heavily customized, and frequently IO.SYS would have a few differences. >For example, Gavilan 2.00, 2.10 or 2.11 all supported 3.5" disks, but >only 2.11 worked right. And 2.11K, 2.11L, etc. also supported double >sided disks. > >If you CAN, try to find a copy of that 2.11 for your machine; the one >modified by the hardware manufacturer to work with the weirdities of your >hardware. If you choose to use one of the newer versions of DOS (6.2x is >the most reliable for a couple of reasons), at least keep a copy available >of the MODE.COM that was customized for your machine. You might need to >use SETVER, or disassemble and look for the code that goes: >MOV AH, 30h >INT 21h >CMP AX, > >Using the newer version of DOS MIGHT cut you off from some of the >customizations, but hopefully MODE.COM may have most of the ones that you >need, such as MODE LCD , etc. > >-- >Fred Cisin cisin(a)xenosoft.com >XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com >2210 Sixth St. (510) 644-9366 >Berkeley, CA 94710-2219 > > >On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Ward Donald Griffiths III wrote: > >> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > >> > Weeeeeeeell, I landed a Data General One laptop. Normally I eschew MS-DOS >> > based machines, simply because I'm a racist pig etc., but this one has an >> > interesting notebook mode and a built-in terminal program at 1200bps. Except >> > that the screen is harder to read than James Joyce, it seems like a winner >> > and it works great. >> > >> > Question. Anyone know what version of DOS this uses? Does someone have any >> > boot disks out there, or at least have the system files available for >> > download? The drives are 3.5" DD, right? >> >> Came as I recall with MS-DOS 2.11, should use anything up to 6.22, >> though of course it's tricky building a 720k 6.22.system disk. 3.3 >> is probably your best bet, although I think there were some hardware >> specific utilities on the original material that might come in rather >> handy. Nice machine -- the only DOS laptop to tempt me prior to the >> Zenith SuperSports. >> -- >> Ward Griffiths <mailto:gram@cnct.com> <http://www.cnct.com/home/gram/> >> >> WARNING: The Attorney General has determined that Alcohol, Tobacco, >> and Firearms can be hazardous to your health -- and get away with it. > > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

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Noise levels have become deaf

by Marty＠itgonline.com

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Marty ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/28/98 10:56 AM Hmm... Looks like Sweet Sam decided that if he couldn't shout me down, he'd just slam the door in my face. What a guy! --- Return-Path: <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:21:11 PST Reply-To: listproc(a)u.washington.edu Sender: listproc(a)u.washington.edu From: University of Washington ListProcessor <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> To: bill_r(a)inetnebr.com Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN X-UIDL: ee07c31fcdb321395d34af85335a15b0 Dear user, your request UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP has been successfully processed. You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP (classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). Thank you for being with us. > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!) ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists5.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct28.105618.1767.73348; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:56:18 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id HAA18374; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:53:33 -0800 Received: from mxu1.u.washington.edu (mxu1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.8]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id HAA60506 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:53:29 -0800 Received: from falcon.inetnebr.com (falcon.inetnebr.com [199.184.119.1]) by mxu1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id HAA29 424 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 07:53:28 -0800 Received: from mail.inetnebr.com (sentinel.walco.com [206.222.203.20]) by falcon.inetnebr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA14454; Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:53:27 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199810281553.JAA14454(a)falcon.inetnebr.com> Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 09:55:39 -0600 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: bill_r(a)inetnebr.com (Bill Richman) To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Re: Noise levels have become deaf Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu, danjo(a)xnet.com X-Sender: bill_r(a)inetnebr.com X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

27 years, 7 months

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eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...)

by cmcmanis＠freegate.com

Ok, I have to draw a line on this one Sam ... At 05:36 PM 10/27/98 -0800, Sam wrote: >Well, if the guy who bought the Atari 1200XL thinks he got fair market >value, I'm happy for him. But I don't want to have to pay some schlub >$600 for an Atari 1200XL the next time I see one go up for sale (luckily I >won't have to, I paid less than $5 for mine at a thrift store, and if I >want another I'll probably find it for around the same price). What that >guy thinks is a "fair price" does NOT equate to "fair market". There is a >huge distinction. There IS a huge distinction, there is no such thing as a "fair price." Its a myth, it don't exist, deal with it. If this "schlub" as you so affectionately refer to them knew about your thrift store (and I can guarantee you he will) then you won't find Atari's in thrift stores and you won't find them at swap meets and the _only_ way to get one will be to pay more than what some other "schlub" is willing to pay. And if the price is too rich for you then you won't own one. What's a "fair" price for a Picasso? a Rembrandt? That is exactly what a market IS and it is actually _incredibly_ fair. Without external intervention it will settle on a price that people are willing to pay. To use the 1200XL example.. Word will get around that a 1200XL goes for 600 on Ebay, so enterprising folks who have been in thrift stores will start scrounging around for them, and then they will all put them up on eBay and the large number of them will cause the price to come down, probably way down but it may not get down to a level you are comfortable paying. For heaven's sake, you think there is a "fair" price for a house in Silicon Valley? Of course not, the MARKET supports a median house price that is well above what any ordinary mortal could pay for, but only because there are enough people willing to pay that price. When people said, "This is f__ ridicululous!" in 1991 guess what, houses stayed on the market until the price came down. When I bought my house I offered nearly 100K UNDER the asking price, got the house and it STILL lost 15K in value over the next couple of years! Now its going back up, great, but that will change when the guys from eBay who got rich on the IPO have all bought there houses. Economics, not just an idea it's a discipline that actually predicts these things pretty accurately... --Chuck

27 years, 7 months

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Noise levels have become deaf

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

Hmm... Looks like Sweet Sam decided that if he couldn't shout me down, he'd just slam the door in my face. What a guy! --- Return-Path: <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 22:21:11 PST Reply-To: listproc(a)u.washington.edu Sender: listproc(a)u.washington.edu From: University of Washington ListProcessor <listproc(a)u.washington.edu> To: bill_r(a)inetnebr.com Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN X-UIDL: ee07c31fcdb321395d34af85335a15b0 Dear user, your request UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP has been successfully processed. You have been removed from list CLASSICCMP (classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). Thank you for being with us. > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!)

27 years, 7 months

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TRS-80 Model II stuff!

by MPritchard＠EnsembleStudios.com

Very much my fault there. Sorry. I'm in Dallas, Tx, USA. Specifically, the machine is in my "garage of doom" in North Garland. -Matt Pritchard Graphics Engine and Optimization Specialist MS Age of Empires & Age of Empires ][ > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip.Belben(a)pgen.com [SMTP:Philip.Belben@pgen.com] > Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 1998 1:38 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: RE: TRS-80 Model II stuff! > > > > > > > Speaking of which, I have a complete Model II in storage; anyone > > interested? > Please remember when posting to the list to say where things are! > > If it's in the UK, Yes please I am definitely interested. > > If it's elsewhere in Europe, Yes, I am possibly interested. > > If it's not in Europe, Yes, I'd love one, but I can't afford the shipping. > > Philip. > > > >

27 years, 7 months

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Noise levels have become deaf

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

> >On Tue, 27 Oct 1998, Sam Ismail wrote: >> That's OK, Bill. There's no need for me to send any particular response >> to this public display of social retardation, other than to acknowledge > ****** >> that you are seriously off-topic and really need to shut up. > >Better put the filter on your Email Bill !!! > >> But if it'll make you feel better, then I'll be the better man and let you >> have the last word publicly. > ******** > >Oops I better put the Sam Slammer back in too! > >> If it'll get you to finally calm down then it'll be well worth it. Go >> ahead and reply to this message with another off-topic tantrum and I >> shall not spew a word about it. > >I a speachless - and apprehensive..... > >> You're welcome. >> >> On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Bill Richman wrote: >> > No, it was intentionally posted to the list. I'm tired of Sam shutting >> > down reasonable discussions by declaring them "off-topic" while in the >> > same breath getting the last word, while simultaneously insulting people >> > for no good reason. I've got a half dozen e-mails filled with Sam's >> > bile and hate from the last time I dared defend someone's right to an >> > opinion other than his. I just thought it might be educational for >> > people to see the festering hatred and insecurity that's exposed when >> > you scratch Sam's surface. That is, of course, unless he decides to be >> > a pussy and flame me in e-mail again. (Fair warning, Sam - anything you >> > e-mail me is going on this list for everyone to see and judge for >> > themselves.) > >Well - that last time Sam 'went overboard' I couldn't shut HIM up until >I threatened to go to his VCF and hand out printed copies of his emails >to the attendees 8-) > >Maybe we should get together and do a 'book' on him! > >I will say that he gets really sweet right before a VCF and then goes >power hungry with the list afterwards... but then everything settles >down to a nice dull roar. Until about March when he knows he has to >start being nice again - he will have one more flare up before Mr. Nice >Guy has to come out and play again. I have gotten used to it. Try to >hang in there Bill. > >BC > > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!)

27 years, 7 months

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Replying to people (was TRS-80 model II)

by MPritchard＠EnsembleStudios.com

Just a note to people: when you e-mail someone directly; don't use an email-address that has something like "your name <yournameDIE.YOU(a)SPAMMERmydomain.com>" in it. Using Microsoft Outlook (which I do), it just shows <your name> with the SMTP portion hidden. After the mail bounces, I'm less inclined to type the whole message again and edit your user name. So that reply to you offering to sell you the complete Altair for $50.... well, you didn't get it. I mean, it's a direct e-mail, not the mailing list. If you think I am going to spam you... come on. Ok, now that, I've jumped all over Arfon, I have to say it's nothing personal and I apologize in advance. it's just not the first time that it's happened. it's just that I don't even see anything until the mail bounces. -Matt Pritchard

27 years, 7 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by roblwill＠usaor.net

> > "Why can't I just shut up?" Fuck you, Sammy boy. With a rusty iron > pipe. _Anybody_ else can voice an opinion here, but for some reason > _you_ decided you don't _like_ me (what is it - did I neglect to kiss > your ass when I came in?), so as soon as I say a _word_, you find a > reason to end the discussion because it's "off-topic" (nevermind the 5 > or 6 times you contributed to most of the threads in question before I > said anything), or you accuse me of "fanning the flames" when done > nothing but voice an opinion like everyone else has been. What total > and utter bullshit. You really need some Prozac, or a shrink to help > you work through those left-over potty-training issues from childhood. > (Or did you forget all the obscene, abusive, highly personal e-mails you > sent me the last time I forgot to agree with your opinion? I've got a > special folder that messages from you are filtered into - it's called > "Asshole". I had thought that you were done with the childish name > calling and personal attacks, but I guess not.) What would your public > think - the man who organized SamFest '98 (errr... excuse me... VCF) - > calling people assholes and telling them to shut up - all because they > voice an opinion about a list they have an interest in? Not very > attractive behavior, Sambo. Not very attractive at all. > Look, I don't know if this was supposed to be a private mail, or not, but WHATEVER it is, it's DEFINATELY OFF-TOPIC! I really think I'd have to side with Sam on this one. -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************

27 years, 7 months

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KEITH, WE HARDLY KNEW YOU was: Noise levels (yak yak)

by Marty＠itgonline.com

Dear Mr. Whitehead, You could have used some discretion like most of us on this list and just read the strings you found worthwhile. Instead you insult virtually everyone on the list and have created yet another flame war which has no end in sight. Please be advised to re-read the Classiccmp FAQ which describes how to unsubscribe and 'don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.' Sincerely, Marty Mintzell ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Author: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu at internet Date: 10/26/98 3:21 PM Well this list used to be good, now it has degenerated into 80%+ noise. I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers What does a modern college education have to do with old computers I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. Go back and re-read what this list was supposed to be about. 99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. k.j.whitehead(a)massey.ac.nz Keith Whitehead Electronics Technician Electronics Services Institute of Fundamental Sciences Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand 5301 ------ Message Header Follows ------ Received: from lists3.u.washington.edu by smtp.itgonline.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9i(b5) for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1998Oct26.152119.1767.72634; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 15:21:19 -0500 Received: from host (lists.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.13]) by lists3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id MAA12116; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:18:29 -0800 Received: from mxu2.u.washington.edu (mxu2.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.9]) by lists.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id MAA50832 for <classiccmp(a)lists.u.washington.edu>; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:17:27 -0800 Received: from cc-server9.massey.ac.nz (cc-server9.massey.ac.nz [130.123.128.11]) by mxu2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with SMTP id MAA099 85 for <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>; Mon, 26 Oct 1998 12:17:24 -0800 Received: from [130.123.73.41] (actually px-mac26) by cc-server9.massey.ac.nz with SMTP(PP); Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:15:54 +1300 Message-Id: <l03010d00b25a94702926(a)[130.123.73.41]> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 1998 09:14:32 +1200 Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu Precedence: bulk From: Keith Whitehead <K.J.Whitehead(a)massey.ac.nz> To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 beta -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN

27 years, 7 months

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ebay

by franke＠sbs.de

>>Just a NO. Maybe I'm stupid and old fashionated, >>but sniping is just not possible. > Yes it is. If there's something I really want, I generally have two > browser windows open -- one to do frequent reloads on, and one with my info > already entered and ready to submit. :)))) You should thank GOd (or alt least your ISP) for your line, every day twice. Especialy when it's 2 pm to 4 am over here, it's impossible to do things like that. And for your extension by x minutes - thats just the same problem - only the one with enuff time to stay online and fast lines will be able to participate. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< So, while a 256 or 512 bit data bus is usefull (and < already in use in main frames - only called data path), < even a 128 Bit address bus is just nonsense. There is some truth to this. DEC went to 64bits as they knew 32bits were not enough for some applications. They were also trying to design for the next 20years to repeat the life of the VAX (32bits). Now, having a large address space isn't completely about filling it. It's about having addressing modes and arithmetic adaquate to deal with large data objects. In the 32bit model 4gb is the limit without thrashing. Those limits was exceeded by disk farms with tens of Gigabytes of databases and solving large mathmatical models. The current example would be doing windows graphics programming (1280x1024x16m) using only 16bit pointers, you do a lot of thrashing to get the the next 64k chunk and there will be a lot of them! That was the problem that spawned the VAX! Brief history lesson: The PDP11 was reachhing the point where a fully filled machine (4mb of ram) could not process in one lump the large problems like weather models or MRI data. It was NOT a speed issue it was 16 bits made for too small a data pointer. Also doing 32/64bit math required more steps (or FP hardware) as the registers were all 16bit. So to add two 24bit numbers on a PDP-11 required multiple steps and that was a speed impact. Going to 32bit registers made that a single instruction and paid back as speed without processors running at faster clocks. If it were speed the 11/74 would have been an ongoing event rather than the 4-6 than did get made. The birth of the VAX (and DGs Eclipse) grew >from this need. So computer designers bumped the size of things to assure they could comfortably address the likely largest object they can resasonably expect to see for some time to come. Not so they could have 2^64bytes of ram but because they already have 2^40bytes of disk farm! All this was no surprize to computer designers. They foresaw it in the 60s knowing that larger memories and disks were needed to solve the problems that were growing. The datapath issue is strictly about speed as the VAX could have an 8bit data bus (in a trade for speed) like the 68008. While it has a big effect on speed it has no interaction with addressability. It's addressing the system problem of multiple devices competing for the common resource (MEMORY). By making the datapath wide you can grab several bytes at the same time and while the cpu is dealing with that the ram is available to run a IO cycle to a disk system or other IO. How big wide enough is, that is determined by how much silicon you have. Allison

27 years, 7 months

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TRS-80 Model II stuff!

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> >unclear as to how to translate 77-track x 34 (256byte) sector media > >to 80-track x 18 (512byte) sector media. I know it will fit fine -- > >whether it can be used directly if an adapter is made to connect the > >new drives to the old hardware I don't know > > Again, this is well discussed in Q16 ("Can I use the newer floppy > drives on my old machine?") of the CP/M FAQ. See > > http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/CPM-faq/faq.html > And I'm sorry but this was a CPM FAQ not an > 8' fd faq. Much less a well-discussed one. I disagree. In between Q14 and Q16 of the CP/M FAQ, and the reference to Sydex's tools, everything you need to know to make images from physical floppies and physical floppies from images on a PC-clone is in the FAQ. Q16 will even tell you how to use a 5.25" or 3.5" floppy on your Model II. > FAQs were created to answer > repetitious questions not to eliminate the need for particular group > discussion of the theme. But it *is* a FAQ in many other forums, and has been repeatedly discussed on CLASSICCMP in the past, as well. > Reminds me of the old guilds where smithy methods > should not be discussed among the profane. I don't remember you posting > objections to any other thread. Why this ? I'm not objecting to the thread; I'm simply pointing the group towards an already extremely comprehensive source of information, because this is a better practice than repeating stuff that most folks here have already seen many times before. Tim.

27 years, 7 months

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64bit data 128Bit address...Re: Building a Z-80 (64bit!

by franke＠sbs.de

>>> I therefore see address buses growing at 16 bits every 30 years. That's >>> just over a bit every 2 years - slower than I expected but not much. >>> Someone (I forget who) said that memory chips double in capacity every >>> 18 months. This would give 16 bits in 24 years. >> Interesting szenario, especialy when connected to the Mores Law >> (didn't he tell this regarding integration ?). > Thanks. That's the one I'm thinking of - the amount of memory you get on > the same area of silicon doubles every 18 months. Basicly I think its about integrations and transistor equivalents, but this is just linear to the size of memorys. In fact, to come back to the original question, Arfon just took doubling of address space and doubbling of data bus width for the same thing, but in fact they are two different functions - widening data bus is linear, while widening address bus is to the square (sorry, my mathematical english just stops here). This means doubble the data bus just doubbles the date transfer rate (the only thing the data bus is needed for) or w'=w+w. But doubbling the address bus is putting the address range (and thats what the address bus is for) to the square or r'=r*r. So, while a 256 or 512 bit data bus is usefull (and already in use in main frames - only called data path), even a 128 Bit address bus is just nonsense. Gruss H. -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by K.J.Whitehead＠massey.ac.nz

Well this list used to be good, now it has degenerated into 80%+ noise. I joined the list some time ago because it was a means to get information about some of the old computers I have collected, hardware and software wise. This list no longer serves that purpose. What does a 64 bit Z80 have to do with old computers What does gripes about EBay have to do about old computers What does a modern college education have to do with old computers I have been watching closely what has been comming though and I have found that by just looking at the heading I trash 95% of all messages, spot checks have shown me that there is nothing worth while reading. Go back and re-read what this list was supposed to be about. 99% of useful information I now get is off other peoples web sites. k.j.whitehead(a)massey.ac.nz Keith Whitehead Electronics Technician Electronics Services Institute of Fundamental Sciences Massey University Palmerston North New Zealand 5301

27 years, 7 months

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TRS-80 CoCo for sale

by siconic＠jasmine.psyber.com

Please contact the SELLER. I am only passing this along. Reply to: jonathow(a)mounet.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 13:32:38 -0400 From: Jonathan Owens <jonathow(a)mounet.com> Subject: Re: TRS-80 It is a TRS-80 Color Computer, model number 26-3004A. It is in good condition, everything still works the way its supposed to. It has jacks for cassette, serial I/O, and joystick. I think it has 1K of memory, I'd have to check to be sure. I have no additional parts for it. I received it as a gift from my uncle over a decade ago. I've not used it much, it is an interesting little tool. I learned quite a bit about BASIC programming from it! Anyway, I would be interested in selling it. I appreciate your interest. Thank you for your time. Sincerely Jonathan Owens --- Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)verio.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details [Last web page update: 09/28/98]

27 years, 7 months

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TRS-80 Model II stuff!

by Philip.Belben＠pgen.com

> Speaking of which, I have a complete Model II in storage; anyone > interested? Please remember when posting to the list to say where things are! If it's in the UK, Yes please I am definitely interested. If it's elsewhere in Europe, Yes, I am possibly interested. If it's not in Europe, Yes, I'd love one, but I can't afford the shipping. Philip.

27 years, 7 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

Coming from someone with a 24-line signature, ragging other people about appropriate mailing list behavior strikes me as just a bit hypocritical. Every time 1 or 2 people make noise about "noise" on the list, Sam jumps on his "This list needs a moderator and I'm the man for the job" soapbox and everybody grumbles about leaving until he settles down; I don't really see the point. Judging by the relatively small number of complaints, I'd have to guess that most of the users (myself included) don't have a problem with the way the list is operating. I typically read the mail from this list in batches, as I have time; I use Forte Agent, and have a rule set up to sort messages from "classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu" into a seperate folder, just like I do the other mailing lists I'm on. That way, I don't have to wade through list messages to find my personal e-mail. I guess I'm with Max - if you want an encyclopedia, get one. I prefer to deal with my on-line friends and neighbors as whole people, not chopped up according to arbitrary criteria and stuffed into neat little pigeonholes just to keep a few anal-retentive people happy... > >If you want to talk about classic computing items posted to eBay, fine. >Z-80? That is absolutely on-topic. But, if you want to engage in a >seemingly endless public debate on the merits of the modern educational >system...I'm sorry. That simply is _not_ appropriate. Either is >gunsmithing, lathe building, snipers, or Star Trek theory. > >When this list is functioning as it should, I find it to be an incredible >resource. I only hope it can continue to be that. Perhaps it is time to >elect a moderator... > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!)

27 years, 7 months

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More thoughts on building a Z-80 (64bit!!!)

by franke＠sbs.de

> You guys are really raining on my parade.... Sorry, but most is just physics. > I have looked at Z180's, Z380's and etc.... They are SLOW!!!!!! The > only availabe packaging for the Z380 is un-useable to me as a hobbist > (without a lot of headache.) Anything you need is a socket adaptor. > So, If some company would take the Z-bus (but with an (input/output) data > size set of bus control lines), Z-80 instruction set and match a DEC Alpha > performance (at a cheap price of-course), I would worship that company. > (Oh yes, I want a 64bit data bus and a 128bit address bus). Is this asking > for too much? Why can't we all just get along? Why not just take an Alpha if you want Alpha features ? And now tell me where you need 128 Bit address ? Just in case, even to fill a 64 Bit memory you need 4 GIG of mem thats just 4 grand ... and 128 Bit memory used ... oh unly 16,000,000,000,000 Dollar ... gee rich man > Since this is a dream: Just listen to Allison, she (now I know) already pointed it out: physics. > My thoughts are this: If I can find some REALLY SIMPLE mirco-controllers > that do just the basic microprocessor functions, Lets just assume you need only 4 cycles on your micro-controller to do the equivalent of an Z80 cycle (after all they are software controlled). this means a 400 MHz micro controller equals a 100 MHz Z80 with an sustaind rate of around 25 MIPS - thats just double to tripple the rate of an Z180 - not a big deal - and anything faster would require Memory with less than 10 nS access access time - and if you remember SDRAM design, there are some quirks to resolve - your simple Bus concept is dead. And speaking of timing - at 1GHz, a signal traveles less than 30 cm (or less than one foot if you like the ancient way). If you take just 500 MHz and lets say 1.4 ns of switching time, wireing at hobist level is impossible. just forget it - these speeds are only possible inside of chips - gee even chip designers have problem with the path inside the chip, and you want rant about using special socets ? > I can parallel them to make them read-in and intrepret Z-80 code. Paralell them - interleaved (pipelined) or even out of order execution ? Have you ever been involved ? O3 is the crudest thig one could imagine - you need 5 to 15 times the logic of the active components (ALU etc.) just to coordinate the concurent components. > I cannot see why massively populated microprocessors (like the PPC, Intel, > and DEC Alpha) can reach clock speeds of 600 Mcyc and a really simple (one > accumulator, bare instruction set) microcontroller can't exceed those speeds! Because they are ONE pice of silicon ? > If I got some of these micro-controllers and had two or three of them > reading in instructions ahead of execution (looking for branches) I could > do half of the job and speed up the through-put. What about taking an extreme simple CPU and try to think again on a simplified base - I would suggest the 1802 - one of the simpelest designs - less than 300 gate function as I remember. No complex math just addition no fancy OPs just minimal needs. And now try to think about O3 and parallel concepts at this simple base. > Then use several more u-controllers acting in parallel to actually do the > instruction execution. See above. > For math, a bunch of stinking fast memory locations acting as look-up tables. A one cycle ALU is still faster - and when using 64 or 128 bit math you need more ROM than available on earth. > Any ideas? Using hyperspace ? Gruss H. PS.: pleas notice, I got it on topic (1802) <g> -- Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut HRK

27 years, 7 months

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Help -- pages from PDP11 Bus Handbook missing

by rcini＠email.msn.com

Hello, all: The "PDP11 Bus Handbook" is the next doc that I own that is next on the scanner bed (so to speak). I only have Xerox copies of the book, and the copy is missing pages 22 and 23. If someone has this book ( (c) 1979) and can either scan the missing pages or snail-mail copies of them to me, I'd appreciate it. As always, thanks. Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin!/CW7 - MCP Windows 95/Windows Networking - Collector of "classic" computers <========= reply separator ==========>

27 years, 7 months

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PCjr with no disk drive?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

IBM 21xx series were PS/1 and current aptiva models. the earliest 21xx series i know about is the 2121 386sx types that had the power supply in the monitor. 2121 models do have a similar form factor though. i'll check at work and post back if i find anything. might be worth getting as it certainly wasnt an announced consumer product. david In a message dated 10/28/98 8:24:57 PM US Eastern Standard Time, dastar(a)ncal.verio.com writes: > I also saw what looked to be a very small IBM computer. It had all the > connectors on the back, for video, keyboard, printer. It also had two > 3.5" bays side by side in the front. The front cover was missing so I > couldn't get any model number off it (not even on the label on the > bottom). The only thing I saw on the label was "Type 2100". I'm thinking > it might be a PS/1 or something. It was really small, measuring about 12" > wide by 3" high by 12" deep. > > Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar@siconic. > com

27 years, 7 months

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PCjr with no disk drive?

by dastar＠ncal.verio.com

Has anyone ever seen (or heard of) an IBM PCjr with no internal disk drive, but instead a face plate covering the slot where the drive would go? I saw such a thing today and was curious if there were ever any PCjr's released without internal disk drives. Obviously this one was. The inside is rather bare as well. There is not the usual cards inside. I also saw what looked to be a very small IBM computer. It had all the connectors on the back, for video, keyboard, printer. It also had two 3.5" bays side by side in the front. The front cover was missing so I couldn't get any model number off it (not even on the label on the bottom). The only thing I saw on the label was "Type 2100". I'm thinking it might be a PS/1 or something. It was really small, measuring about 12" wide by 3" high by 12" deep. Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ever onward. Coming in 1999: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0 See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! [Last web site update: 09/21/98]

27 years, 7 months

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Noise levels increasing and have become deafening

by roblwill＠usaor.net

Agreed. ---------- > From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Noise levels increasing and have become deafening > Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 11:09 PM > >

27 years, 7 months

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ebay

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 11:57 AM 10/26/98 -0700, you wrote: >4. Finally, to avoid heartache from being sniped, don't assume you have > a thing until you get the notification you won. Until you get that, > the thing isn't yours. I once bid on an item and saw the "auction has closed" screen. Then, ebay decided that because a problem came up shortly after the auction closed, they would reset all the auctions (even the ones not affected) to close one day later. Imagine my surprise when I checked MyEbay and saw the auction was open again! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 7 months

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Need Pinout: DEC H7861 Power Supply

by mcquiggi＠sfu.ca

Hi Group: I have an old 11/23 with an H7861 power supply. It's a Q bus box. The cabinet kit is missing. There is a ten wire ribbon cable from the power supply. I am looking for the pinout of this ribbon cable, so that I can make my own panel. The leads likely carry DC OK, Halt, Restart, and so on. Anybody have the info on this? Thanks in advance, Kevin -- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca

27 years, 7 months

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eBay (aka: ePay, eVay, oyVay, etc...)

by dcoward＠pressstart.com

Chuck McManis said speaking of EBAY: >It sounds like this is a "bad" thing. Is it? If so why? ----- START RANT ----------------- Yes, it a Baaad thing. I was very happy when my computers were "worthless" (to everyone else), thank you very much for asking. 1) Computers are appearing everywhere. I don't have to look so hard any more. As a result I don't yell "Yipee" as loud any more, especially when I realize what it's going to cost me. 2) A good portion of the discussions on this list are about what some machine is worth. A hobby that allows a person to gain complex knowledge of so many aspects of their machines and it history has been reducted to the level of baseball trading cards and "beanies". I would rather hear about how someone just got a machine running for the first time in 15 years. 3) I see a "Low Tech" craze coming. People will be mounting S-100 boards to hang on the wall. Just like the people that buy old magazines, cut them up to frame the old advertisements. By piecing out a computer they make alot of money, and someone has a piece of Americana to decorate their den, but it's taking technology out of context. This will come when the prices "crash". Imagine you need a S-100 disk controller. You find one,it costs a fortune and you need to chip it out of a block of Lucite, because someone made it into a paper weight. 4) I don't care for the way it makes people react. The following is from the CP/M list last weekend: >About a week or so I let loose that I had a few IMSAI chassis available. >This resulted in a deluge of mailings. I was rather amazed at this - that >anyone would want them at all. >I offered them for free (postage) and still am doing so. A couple of takers >have been identified. >What I cannot abide is a few that got real abusive. I was offering something >for nothing, yet a few insisted on demanding they get the equipment. I >received some nasty insinuations and threats. This I will not tolerate and >each party has been told so personally. >I wish to reiterate here that I am appalled at the behavior of these few. It >was fortunate that the majority had better manners. I nearly tossed the >whole batch in the garbage. >Excuse the venting - Sorry about the whole mess >Rich Raspenti 5) "Beanies" are made to be collectible. They don't have a story to tell. They don't have a functionality that is greater than the sum of their parts. You don't play with them. You just display them. And that is the biggest problem. When a treasured possession becames too valuable to use for fear of damaging it, that defeats MY purpose for collecting computers. - the not so oldtimer ----- END RANT ------------------------- > It would seem that >eBay is making a market for older computers that before didn't exist. Now >is it that the 'old timers' who were used to picking up C64's at a garage >sale for $1 will now have to pay $25 are grumbling? Doesn't this >potentially increase the value of your own collection many fold? Isn't that >a good thing? > Traditionally there is a rush of "collectible fever" (if >you've ever dealt with collectibles, and my Dad has for many more years >than I) where lots of people rush in an buy anything that may be >collectible hoping to get in at the bottom of the next "beanie" craze, then >there is a rush of junk dealers who prey on those bozos and come in and >sell them a bunch of "L@@K! R@RE!" Commodore 64's or 486SL machines for >over market prices, and then there is a general "crash" of the market as >the bozo's leave and prices go back to more rational levels (but usually >higher than they were before the "collectible" craze hit) and then, if they >are truely collectable (and there are many properties of things that make >them so) then the price begins to reflect actual rarity, condition, and >that imponderable "desirability." ========================================= Doug Coward Press Start Inc. Sunnyvale,CA =========================================

27 years, 7 months

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Microvaxen bits etc.

by geoffrob＠stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au

-----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney <aaron(a)wfi-inc.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, 28 October 1998 12:53 Subject: Re: Microvaxen bits etc. >On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Computer Room Internet Cafe wrote: > >> I'm really gonna have to find a pinout for the AUI connectors. And how to >> connect them. > >Pin Function >---------------- <snip> That ought to do it, thanks very much! Cheers Geoff Roberts Computer Systems Manager Saint Marks College Port Pirie South Australia. My ICQ# is 1970476 Ph. 61-411-623-978 (Mobile) 61-8-8633-0619 (Home) 61-8-8633-8834 (Work-Direct) 61-8-8633-0104 (Fax)

27 years, 7 months

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TRS-80 Model II stuff!

by MPritchard＠EnsembleStudios.com

Speaking of which, I have a complete Model II in storage; anyone interested? > -----Original Message----- > From: Arfon Gryffydd [SMTP:ArfonRG@DIEspammerSCUM.Texas.Net] > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 9:04 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: TRS-80 Model II stuff! > > Okay, > For anyone interested (Larry).... I am going home (to Virginia) for > thanksgiving and I will pull out one of my model IIs and get all of the > still useable software and manuals. I will make copies available to > anyone who wants if someone can tell me how to copy the 8" discs to a file > on a PC (either using Linux or Dos). > > I can serial port the machines togethet but, I have no idea how to > read > off all the sectors of the 8 inches. > > Arfon > > "Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build > bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce > bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning." -- Rich Cook

27 years, 7 months

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TRS-80 Model II stuff!

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> With a few of my Linux >tools, I may even be able to make images on modern media, though I'm >unclear as to how to translate 77-track x 34 (256byte) sector media >to 80-track x 18 (512byte) sector media. I know it will fit fine -- >whether it can be used directly if an adapter is made to connect the >new drives to the old hardware I don't know Again, this is well discussed in Q16 ("Can I use the newer floppy drives on my old machine?") of the CP/M FAQ. See http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/CPM-faq/faq.html >-- and track 0 was single >density IIRC, the boot ROM might be sticky. And there are several tools - most notably Teledisk - which can handle split-density floppies. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology Voice: 301-767-5917 7328 Bradley Blvd Fax: 301-767-5927 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817

27 years, 7 months

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Road trip/vintage sources

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> What kind of places? Places that dark and dirty. Places with >junk arranged in piles. Places with vacuum tube equipment. >(I would love to find an example of a vacuum tube analog computer) Be sure to hit C&H Surplus on Colorado Blvd in Pasadena, All Electronics in Van Nuys, and APEX in San Fernando if you head through Southern California. >Places you won't want your kids to play in. There are parts of APEX that you need a hard-hat to enter :-). Tim.

27 years, 7 months

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DOS disks?

by roblwill＠usaor.net

I can GIVE you a copy of 3.2 for free. Just send me an email (personal), -Jason *********************************************** * Jason Willgruber * * (roblwill(a)usaor.net) * * * * http://members.tripod.com/general_1 * * ICQ#-1730318 * * /0\/0\ * * > Long Live the 5170! * * \___/ * ************************************************ ---------- > From: Gene Ehrich <gene(a)ehrich.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: DOS disks? > Date: Tuesday, October 27, 1998 4:01 PM > > At 01:56 PM 10/27/98 -0500, you wrote: > > Any PC (IBM) or MS-DOS as far as I know, although I'd try MS-DOS 3.2 > > or 3.3.... > > If you cant find it for free any place. > > I have 3.3 for sale on my web site at http://www.voicenet.com/~generic > > Gene > > Gene Ehrich

27 years, 7 months

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Commodore 128D

by maxeskin＠hotmail.com

The voltages of the wires going from PSU to the motherboard. > >::Well, it's been about two months, and I still haven't started on the >::C128D that Hans gave me (sorry, Hans!). Could someone please post >::the PSU pinouts for it (this is the one with an internal PSU)? > >PSU pinouts? How do you mean, exactly? My DCR has an integrated power supply >(later model 128D, metallic case, single board; the D series have a two >board setup, one for the 1571 and the other for the system, plastic case). > >-- >-------------------------- personal page: http://calvin.ptloma.edu/~spectre/ -- >Cameron Kaiser Information Technology Services Database Programmer >Point Loma Nazarene University Fax: +1 619 849 2581 >ckaiser(a)ptloma.edu Phone: +1 619 849 2539 >-- My opinions may have changed, but not the fact that I'm still right. ------- > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

27 years, 7 months

1
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Fw: Reparir of my 8514/A monitor

by dwollmann＠ibmhelp.com

Anyone have any pulled MA3172s they can help this gent with or know of a source for them? All I have are dead 8514s and I'm not good with a soldering iron--I don't think this fella would want to buy/ship the whole monitor just for the chip and I would destroy it if I tried to pull it. >Date: Fri, 12 Jun 1998 11:46:46 +0200 >From: Ognjen Seslija <seki(a)EUnet.yu> >Organization: TEKON computers >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) >To: dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com >Subject: Reparir of my 8514/A monitor > >Dear Sirs, >About ten years ago, i've bought an IBM PS/2 model 80 with IBM 8514/A >monitor. >My monitor is not operational any longer due to the malfunction of one >hybrid >chip MA3172. >Can one bye this chip somewhere in NY city? >If so, please email me about an adress of your shop in NY, so I can tell >my friend who lives there where to buy it. > >Thank You very much. > >Ognjen Seslija >TEKON computers, Belgrade, Yugoslavia > -- David Wollmann | dwollmann(a)ibmhelp.com | Support for legacy IBM products. DST ibmhelp.com Technical Support | Data, document and file conversion for IBM http://www.ibmhelp.com/ | legacy file and media formats. -- Your Personal Computers may be not be Year 2000 compliant! -- For information on how Year 2000 may affect your PCs and prototype IBM Year 2000 diagnostics and fixes: http://www.ibm.com/pc/year2000/

27 years, 7 months

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DOS disks?

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

i'd use mess-dos 5 myself. help files, and a workable editor makes it worth it but still small enough to run from floppy. In a message dated 98-10-27 13:58:09 EST, you write: << Weeeeeeeell, I landed a Data General One laptop. Normally I eschew MS-DOS based machines, simply because I'm a racist pig etc., but this one has an interesting notebook mode and a built-in terminal program at 1200bps. Except that the screen is harder to read than James Joyce, it seems like a winner and it works great. Question. Anyone know what version of DOS this uses? Does someone have any boot disks out there, or at least have the system files available for download? The drives are 3.5" DD, right? Thanks much, >>

27 years, 7 months

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