27 Jun
2000
27 Jun
'00
3:11 a.m.
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000 00:31:48 -0400 "Bill Dawson" <whdawson(a)mlynk.com>
writes:
Perhaps I should have used the word
"pattern"? Yes, similar things
occur with most collectibles and their followers. Clubs, newsletters,
meets, conventions, suppliers, etc. I think though that as far as
logistics go, we have much more in common with the antique radio
collectors than with collectors of Beanie Babies.
Yeah, Beanie Baby prices are actually starting to go *down*. :^/
The point I am trying to make is that all we have to
do is observe
where the Antique Radio Collector field is today and how it got there.
We are following the same path.
God forbid. I'm glad I have little or no interest in 'Vintage'
radio-- I'd never be able to afford it.
We can take shortcuts and avoid pitfalls. Vintage
computer collecting
is
not a fad,
No quite, but damn near
Sellam and many others on this list have put forth
great effort to put
on the VCF's, which I hope to be able to attend someday soon.
I don't know about you, but I'll bet alot of guys here can't even
afford the air fare. I know I can't.
However, an IVCA, with elected officers, bylaws, dues,
and
non-profit status would be a great boost to this collecting field.
Yeah, it's gonna give prices a real boost, alright. Tell me how
you think any kind of 'boost' is going to help, huh? I can see
it now: I'm at a local surplus place, and I pick out Widget (or
a part for one, more likely), and ask for a price. The guys says
"Uhhh, well, those are *collectable* now, you know. $50.". Never
mind the fact that I got one like it the year before for $10.
I know there are those that dread this hobby or
whatever you want to
call it heading in an organized direction, with the attendant increase
of
publicity and collectors. Why do I think this way? I
see two types of
vintage computer collectors, the true historical
preservationists and
the collectors.
Isn't it odd, how "True historical preservationists" always seem to
have the *deepest* pockets?
Collectors see organization and all that comes with it
as a threat to
their ability to find those rare pieces (find it first) and increased
competition (pay as little as possible for it).
Oh, okay, so I'm a 'collector' because I don't have thousands of dollars
to throw at this. I see. I don't know about you, but I got into this
because, at long last, I found a truly interesting hobby I could actually
*afford*. You're damned f'ing right I want to pay 'as little as
possible'.
That's the only way I'm going to be able to stay in this . . . .
I was priced out of stamp collecting in the 70's. I was priced out of
numismatics in the early 80's. I'll be goddamned if I'm going to stand
idly by, to watch this happen again.
Why else all the complaining about eBay and the
prices?
Because alot of us won't be able to participate if the prices get
too high, or are you so wealthy that this is too difficult for you
to comprehend?!?!
Our goal, if I understand it correctly, is the
preservation of our
computer technology for posterity.
Yes. Preservation. Restoring and owning a truly historic computer is a
worthwhile and uplifting endeavour. Unfortunately, the way things are
going, it will soon be an endeavour for the privledged few.
If an organized association greatly furthers this
cause than I
believe we should be focusing in that direction. And I'm not
limiting "we" to mean just those on this list, but also those on
the many other vintage/classic hardware and software lists as well.
This can only help but further our cause of historical preservation.
And I'm saying, all you will be doing is raising the cost of
admission. There's nothing anyone can do to stop you, of course.
If Classic Computing becomes a 'legitimate' hobby with a 'legitimate'
organization, then I guess there won't be room for amateurs
like myself. You professional 'true historical preservationists'
can have it.
This hobby is about people, as much as it is about technology
(old and new). If you're going to squeeze out a group of its
people, you may as well forget the group of technology that
will get squeezed out with them, for the ones who are in charge
won't care.
Jeff
________________________________________________________________
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Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
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27 Jun
27 Jun
4:48 a.m.
Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote:
/most of rant deleted
> I was priced out of stamp collecting in
the 70's. I was priced out of
> numismatics in the early 80's. I'll be goddamned if I'm going to stand
> idly by, to watch this happen again.
Take a look at my prior comment. A book you might want to look at (but
probably won't) is "The Richest Man in Babylon" by George S. Clason.
> > Why else all the complaining about eBay and the prices?
> Because alot of us won't be able to
participate if the prices get
> too high, or are you so wealthy that this is too difficult for you
> to comprehend?!?!
See comment #1.
> > Our goal, if I understand it correctly, is the preservation of our
> > computer technology for posterity.
> Yes. Preservation. Restoring and owning a
truly historic computer is a
> worthwhile and uplifting endeavour. Unfortunately, the way things are
> going, it will soon be an endeavour for the privledged few.
See comment #1. Those "priviledged few" are generally the people that get
things done and manage their resources wisely. Personally, I would not want
someone without the ability to manage having any control over my collection.
Isn't it odd, how "True historical
preservationists" always seem to
have the *deepest* pockets?
Isn't it also odd how the people with these "deep pockets" also seem to get
a lot accomplished? You might want to look at that correlation and see what
it means.
> *afford*. You're damned f'ing right I want to pay 'as little as
> possible'.
> That's the only way I'm going to be able to stay in this . . . .
6:29 a.m.
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9:35 a.m.
New subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was:
Tony Duell wrote:
Are you somehow suggesting that because I have almost no income and
little money that I am somehow clueless and not fit to own or work on
classic computers?
Because if so, I take that as a very personal insult.
I have no idea how you read "clueless ..." into "ability to manage".
What I
said was a statement of fact, and certainly not an insult to you or anyone
else. My frame of reference in all of this is managing a large collection
such as what a museum might have on display, or an organization such as the
IVCA. We all have different talents and interests, and a good technical
background does not necessarily imply good management skills.
My collection at this point numbers conservatively in the many, many
thousands of manuals, docs, etc. as well as close to a thousand computers,
monitors, printers, and peripherals. Some of the stuff (Polymorphic
software) is irreplacable. I am acutely aware of the need for management and
organizational skills (which I do not have, and have no particular desire to
acquire) needed to do something with the collection.
I might add (and this is also *not* an insult) that your situation, and
mine, is a result of our choices in life. Money is certainly not a driving
force in my life, and people who have been to my house understand that :).
Yes.
Preservation. Restoring and owning a truly historic computer is a
worthwhile and uplifting endeavour. Unfortunately, the way things are
going, it will soon be an endeavour for the privledged few.
See comment #1. Those "priviledged few" are generally the people that get
things done and manage their resources wisely. Personally, I would not want
someone without the ability to manage having any control over my collection.
I see no correlation _at all_ between the amount of
money a person
happens to have and their interest in computer restoration. Or their
knowledge of electronics/computing/engineering/etc. Or their ability to
keep a collection together and look after it.
This thread started because Jeff was complaining about the rising prices of
acquiring this stuff, and how this would lead to not being able to be a part
of this hobby. My comment was basically that the people who had money to but
this stuff had (for the most part) already demonstrated an ability to manage
their resouces (money) wisely in a way to make them increase (or at least
not decrease.) *Those* are the people able to organize a successful
organization. One example here on the list is Sellam; he didn't just talk
about a computer show but went ahead and started something. And Sellam has
been one of the people on this list saying that the machines are still
available for free or very little (at least in parts of the US.)
Another thought re participation, the people without organizational skills
generally end up working for someone that has them. Hence the participation
can still be there, just not the control.
I would disagree with your statement that there is no correlation between a
persons resources and an ability to keep a collection together and look
after it. It needs to be added that I am talking in the context of the
original thread; that of an IVCA. Would you (or Jeff) really feel
comfortable trying to manage such an organization? Everything I have seen
from you to date indicates that you are extremely
competent from a technical
standpoint, and would most likely be bored to death with
the details of
running such an organization. However without skills such as yours, a
collection would be nothing more than a stagnant display or pile of boxes.
There is a place for anyone who wants to be a part.
10:57 a.m.
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7:41 a.m.
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote:
Heck, I couldn't even afford to get to VCF-Europe,
let alone the States.
But if there's ever a VCF-UK, I'll be there. Somehow. I'll even volunteer
to bring some machines and give a talk.
Philip Belben expressed an interest in organizing VCF-UK. I'm holding him
up to it. I told him if he doesn't I was going to scan those pictures I
have of him in a compromising position and spread them around the internet
:)
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
9:28 a.m.
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11:37 p.m.
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote:
> Heck, I couldn't even afford to get to VCF-Europe, let alone the States.
> But if there's ever a VCF-UK, I'll be there. Somehow. I'll even
volunteer
> to bring some machines and give a talk.
Count me in, too. I'm sure I could put together a few
machines for a display, and talk on some appropriate topic.
--
John Honniball
Email: John.Honniball(a)uwe.ac.uk
University of the West of England
8:01 a.m.
Now, alas, there's no way I could afford a valve
radio at the prices they
sell for over here. A common battery portable, useless to most people
because the batteries are impossible to obtain, sells for \pounds 50.00.
Anything Bakelite is going to sell for over \pounds 100.00.
Computers or radio - why all this thinking that they are all expensive?
Certainly there are scores of free computers (good ones, too) available
all of the time.
Do what I do - TRADE. You need to build up some trading stock, but that
is not hard nor is it expensive. Then start the swaps. You might also
start selling stuff at hamfest (rallies) - it always suprises me what
little bit of junk I manage to sell, most of which I have no money in.
Now this won't make so much money that you can retire (well, maybe if
your really good), but a good day at a hamfest might make that radio or
computer you have been eyeing look VERY affordable.
For example, I have a lot of junk. And I mean a lot of junk. It basically
consists of parts pulled out of whatever freebies I get that are not worth
keeping, minus the parts I keep for my own projects. The junk gets thrown
into big grey bins and hauled to the hamfest. The pricing is simple - the
_buyer_ names the price and I take it. Most people are very fair, and on a
good day, I can make a nice lump of cash on just the junk out of the
bins. With that money, a $100 radio or computer part is not an impossible
dream. In fact it can be quite painless.
I've actually heard it said that the person who
pays more for an item is
the person who most wants it, and who will best look after it. To which
there is only one sane answer : Rubbish.
I have seen a lot of collections around the country, many of quite notable
"deep pocket" collectors, and I can conclude that these "big guns" do
treat their collections better than the norm. Just an observation.
And before someone puts words in my mouth - this does _not_ mean that
that the all (or even most) "normal" collectors treat their things poorly.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
6:40 a.m.
Sellam and
many others on this list have put forth great effort to put
on the VCF's, which I hope to be able to attend someday soon.
I don't know about you, but I'll bet alot of guys here can't even
afford the air fare. I know I can't. Yeah, it's gonna give prices a real boost,
alright. Tell me how
you think any kind of 'boost' is going to help, huh?
How about real museums? How about speadiung knowledge - informing the
public and each other about the history? How about saving hardware and
software that is out of the reach af any individual? How about
professional recognition? How about security for our collections?
And I'm saying, all you will be doing is raising
the cost of
admission. There's nothing anyone can do to stop you, of course.
If Classic Computing becomes a 'legitimate' hobby with a 'legitimate'
organization, then I guess there won't be room for amateurs
like myself. You professional 'true historical preservationists'
can have it.
Jeff, take your stinking attitude and get out of town. Please. The one
thing that hurts retrocomputing more than anything else is someone like you.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
7:14 a.m.
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Jeffrey l Kaneko wrote:
C'mon. You gotta look for those super-saver airfare deals. Check out
www.cheaptickets.com and www.bestfares.com for cheap airline specials.
You can usually find roundtrip flights across the country for $198 or
less.
VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1 at the San Jose Convention Center in San
Jose (you'll want to land in SJO). Formal announcement coming soon.
Sellam and
many others on this list have put forth great effort to put
on the VCF's, which I hope to be able to attend someday soon.
I don't know about you, but I'll bet alot of guys here can't even
afford the air fare. I know I can't. Oh, okay, so I'm a 'collector' because I
don't have thousands of dollars
to throw at this. I see. I don't know about you, but I got into this
because, at long last, I found a truly interesting hobby I could actually
*afford*. You're damned f'ing right I want to pay 'as little as
possible'.
That's the only way I'm going to be able to stay in this . . . .
Yeah, I have to agre with this sentiment. This "hobby" is about as
official as you can get. It's definitely arrived. We don't need high
prices established in order to make it any more legitimate.
I was priced out of stamp collecting in the 70's.
I was priced out of
numismatics in the early 80's. I'll be goddamned if I'm going to stand
idly by, to watch this happen again.
Preach on, Brother Jeff!
;)
And I'm saying, all you will be doing is raising
the cost of
admission. There's nothing anyone can do to stop you, of course.
If Classic Computing becomes a 'legitimate' hobby with a 'legitimate'
organization, then I guess there won't be room for amateurs
like myself. You professional 'true historical preservationists'
can have it.
There is no such thing as an "amateur computer historian". I don't recall
there being a degree program at any university strictly dealing with
computer history. Anybody who's ever brought home an old computer for the
sake of preserving it and put a lot of time and care into
researching and restoring it IS a Computer Historian.
This hobby is about people, as much as it is about
technology
(old and new). If you're going to squeeze out a group of its
people, you may as well forget the group of technology that
will get squeezed out with them, for the ones who are in charge
won't care.
Absolutely. It's the hobbyists who are responsbile for uncovering the
history of the machines. Even having them in museums doesn't guarantee
they will be researched and preserved properly (lack of resources being
the main problem). Individual machines in the hands of individual
collectors who will appreciate the machine is the optimal scenario.
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
VCF 4.0 is September 30-October 1
San Jose Convention Center, San Jose, California
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
9 a.m.
Yeah, I have to agre with this sentiment. This
"hobby" is about as
official as you can get. It's definitely arrived. We don't need high
prices established in order to make it any more legitimate.
How will the formation of an official group make prices go up? Please
explain, as I don't see any connection. If anything, most official
organizations _do_not_allow_ commercial dealing (generally outlawed from
the museums and journals). Prices are independent, under some other
influence.
There is no such thing as an "amateur computer
historian". I don't recall
there being a degree program at any university strictly dealing with
computer history. Anybody who's ever brought home an old computer for the
sake of preserving it and put a lot of time and care into
researching and restoring it IS a Computer Historian.
There is certainly room for amateurs. I have no history degree, but I am
welcome in several historical organizations.
Absolutely. It's the hobbyists who are
responsbile for uncovering the
history of the machines. Even having them in museums doesn't guarantee
they will be researched and preserved properly (lack of resources being
the main problem). Individual machines in the hands of individual
collectors who will appreciate the machine is the optimal scenario.
I must disagree here - machines in the hands of museums is better.
Museums are starting to recognize the history of computers, so many of
the horror stories we hear about computers being mistreated (or
vaporizing!) at museums are turning into just stories.
Museums offer far greater security for the artifacts. It takes a great
deal to destroy a museum and its contents. On the other hand, the death
or sickness of one person can destroy a whole private collection. This
happens all of the time - someone dies and the house is cleared out. For
all of the talk about including parts of wills that can deal with these
types of disasters - how many of us have _actually_ gone about doing it?
In fact, I would like anyone on this list to email me privately with an
answer if they have, and I will tally the results. I will keep individual
answers confidential.
Also, keep in mind that museums are public. Private collections are not.
While there are some private collections that do a great job of showing
off to the public, there are at least ten times that number that are very
closed and effectively hidden. What good do those collections do for the
advancement of knowledge? Not a whole lot. Certainly there are people on
this list with very rare, significant machines, software, and docs, but
they are not accessable in any way. Some won't even admit that they even
have the artifacts. I would also bet that not a whole lot of private
collectors would even entertain the thought of having a stranger view or
study an artifact.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
9:37 a.m.
New subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association? Was: Yo
At 05:00 PM 6/27/00 -0400, William wrote:
How will the formation of an official group make prices
go up? Please
explain, as I don't see any connection.
I'm presuming that the theory here is that when an "official" organization
erupts they start to create visibility for the activity they are promoting
(they almost have to to survive) and this gets more people interested and
then the demand goes up so prices rise.
--Chuck
9:46 a.m.
I'm presuming that the theory here is that when an
"official" organization
erupts they start to create visibility for the activity they are promoting
(they almost have to to survive) and this gets more people interested and
then the demand goes up so prices rise.
That seems to be the wrong way round. The people are getting interested,
prices are rising, and a few people want to start an organization to
perhaps regulate it.
Such an organization could "preach" that many of these old computers are
far more common that people realize, and perhaps so many won't be fooled.
For example, page one of the official journal might have an article about
how ALL old Macs have signatures inside them. Or even section of
classified ads for FREE COMPUTERS.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
10:44 a.m.
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4:09 p.m.
I must disagree with both of you... Museums provide
one function -- that
of conserving machines and ensuring that they will still be around in the
future.
No, museums do more. They preserve the hardware (and software and docs
and all of the related physical stuff), as we all know, but they also
preserve the culture. In fact, in many cases, museums are more interested
in the culture behind an artifact than the artifact itself. For example,
tribal masks are interesting artifacts, made of exotic woods, and they
can tell all sorts of things about the artists and tools at the time it
was made - but the real value is the knowledge of how the masks were
used, who used them, why and when they were used, and so forth. In fact
archaeology is almost _all_ culture study - artifacts are just clues.
Hobbyists provide a different function (IMHO) -- they
carry on
using the machines, ensuring that the operational knowledge is preserved
a little longer. They may also pull them apart, modify them and restore
them, and in so doing recreate some of the design information for the
machine.
This is something the museums are starting to do, now that they are
starting to take the things seriously. For example, on one of the
submarine museums, a project is afoot to restore the stable element back
to operation. The main point of the project is not to show a working Arma
gyro system, but to preserve the methods (some would say magic) involved
with balancing the beasts from the few old men that can still do it. The
artifact will likely last for thousands of years if treated well, but
those old codgers are will be lucky to last another twenty.
All museums that I have ever been in contact with
would certainly -- and
with good reason -- refuse to let me do the sort of things to their
artefacts that I routinely do to my own machines. Like adding chips,
sticking wire-wrapped (and reversable) modifications on the backs of
boards. Like taking them _totally_ to bits and desoldering chips, etc. Am
I ruining classic computers? Perhaps. But if I didn't do things like that
then I'd not be able to share repair methods, etc, with other collectors
and enthusiasts -- and yes, museums.
Well, yes, the museums would kick you out in a jiffy. The whole idea of
an artifact is to "freeze" it at some point in time, and keep it there.
It is far from a perfect world, and all sorts of things want to change
the artifact, destroying the "historical fabric" (official term). Museums
want to keep this fabric as intact as possible, but also may want to
restore the artifacts. It is a fine line - the well being of the artifact
vs. the value to the public. That is one of the reasons museum tend to be
very slow and careful. Even little changes rip the fabric, and it
_can_not_ be repaired.
Museums and scholars learned the hard way how to treat artifacts. Much
has been lost because of little (or sometimes big, in the case with
Egyptology) changes have built up into big changes, and documentation can
only go so far. Even mods that are reversable really are not. Changes can
be tiny, but they add up.
Now I don't think for even a second that I am going to change everyone
into "restoration cops", but it is something people should consider. Some
of us have very unique machines, some with a great deal of history behind
them, but it could all be lost forever.
Both functions are highly valuable. I refuse to say
which is more
valuable (that depends on who you are and what you're interested in). But
there's certainly a place for both groups in the world.
As I said, there is simply no way everyone will start acting like a
curator. In fact, I may very well get flamed for even suggesting such a
thing. Private collections will always exist, and a great deal of
knowledge will be kept private. The key is to get the museums and private
collectors to exist peacefully and exchange the knowledge (actually
easier than it sounds - this list being a good example).
My experience is that museums are great if you want to
see what the
museum thinks that the average member of the public would (a) want to see
and (b) would understand. But if you want to go way beyond that then
you're not going to get very far.
Maybe the UK is different (I though the British were the kings of
museums?), but most US museums are quite happy to let the public research
the holdings. There may be a little bit of processing (paperwork and so
forth) to go thru, to make sure you are not a Bozo ready to walk away
with some artifacts, but it can be done. Credentials help a great deal -
thus the idea of an "official" retrocomputing organization has a great
deal of merit.
Hmmm... Some of us do ensure that anything we discover
about our machines
is at least 'backed up' to one other collector, if not made public on a
list like that one. And the things we discover are _not_ the sort of
thing you're going to find out just by looking at a machine.
Who says that museums are just for looking anyway? The point of
collecting the artifacts is so they can be studied in detail.
While most of us have machines that we don't
mention publically, you can
bet that if you start asking questions about them you'll get answers
which at least imply they've _seen_ the machine in quite close detail.
That is great, and I thank everyone that does participate, but no doubt
there are many that don't. Just recently I was thru a round of
semi-academic talk on another list about the RDF (radio direction finding)
set Amelia Earhart used, and why she managed to get lost. Well, a friend
and I had some documentation about the Bendix system used, so we shared
it. Another guy I know actually _has_ one of these radios (a very rare
variant - the only one I know of), but he said nothing - added nothing to
the discussion. For our purposes, the radio in his collection might as
well have been a potted plant.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
28 Jun
28 Jun
8:51 a.m.
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1:46 p.m.
We can discuss this for ever and never agree on
who's right!.
Cats vs. Dogs, Chicken vs Egg.
OK, I think this thread has pretty much run its course (maybe a little
too much), so lets get on with other things.
I hope my comments are not being taken as flames --
this is not my
intention at all (although I am somewhat tired at the moment and probably
shouldn't be posting...).
No flame.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
27 Jun
27 Jun
9:09 a.m.
New subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association?
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11:12 a.m.
New subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association?
On Tue, 27 Jun 2000, Tony Duell wrote:
I am mildly fed up with this idea that
'amateur' means 'second grade' or
'poor quality' or... It doesn't. Period. To say that it does is
essentially claiming that money==quality, something that I will never
agree with.
Remember, Amateurs built the Ark! Professionals built the Titanic...
9:22 a.m.
New subject: Is it time for an International Vintage Computer Association?Was: Yo
Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com> wrote:
There is no such thing as an "amateur computer historian". I don't recall
there being a degree program at any university strictly dealing with
computer history. Anybody who's ever brought home an old computer for the
sake of preserving it and put a lot of time and care into
researching and restoring it IS a Computer Historian.
Hi
I would qualify this with the statement that the information
needs to be passed on. This means that sharing what you've learned
and documenting what you've got is as important as squirreling
away a old machine.
Absolutely. It's the hobbyists who are
responsbile for uncovering the
history of the machines. Even having them in museums doesn't guarantee
they will be researched and preserved properly (lack of resources being
the main problem). Individual machines in the hands of individual
collectors who will appreciate the machine is the optimal scenario.
Agreed.
Dwight
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participants (9)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
aw288＠osfn.org -
cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
elvey＠hal.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
jeff.kaneko＠juno.com -
John.Honniball＠uwe.ac.uk -
marvin＠rain.org -
transit＠lerctr.org