- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by cc＠informatik.uni-stuttgart.de

Hi, do hardware manuals for the TWIN exist? And does any other TWIN system exist? It seems it is a completely forgotten and lost development system. Christian

8 years, 6 months

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Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Charles Anthony > a hybrid PDP-11 (16 bits) / PDP-15 (18 bits) on a shared bus (UNIBUS?) That's a UNICHANNEL-15: it allowed devices on the -11 to do DMA directly into the PDP-15's memory through the MX15-B Memory Multiplexer. Odd factoid: this UNIBUS could run in 18-bit mode (!!), where the UNIBUS' two parity lines were recycled into 2 extra data lines. Some DMA interfaces (e.g. the RK11) could support this; in this particular case, it allowed the PDP-15 to use RK05 drives. Noel

8 years, 6 months

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Idle question: Color of tape coatings

by cclist＠sydex.com

While working on some old (again!) half-inch tapes, I note that some of the very old ones have an oxide coating about the color of milk chocolate. Newer ones are anywhere from dark chocolate to black. Reel construction is another aspect. The really old ones tend to be all clear plastic, including the hub area. Newer ones have either a black plastic reinforcement to the hub or employ an aluminum sleeve. In most cases, the oldest of these is from around 1964, but probably older than that, as the only clues I have are dates placed by the tape librarian when a tape is put back into the pool or a label indicating when the tape was last recertified. Was there a date after which *all* half-inch tape became the dark brown to nearly black in color? --Chuck

8 years, 6 months

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Sync on Green RGB video

by dj.taylor4＠comcast.net

I have a couple of vaxes that output 'unique' video, Alpha 3000 300, Alpha 3000 400, Vax 4000 VLC, and Vax Station 3100 M76. The Alpha and VLC each have a 3W3 type of connector and the 3100 has a 15 pin DEC designed connector. What does it take to connect these to inexpensive, modern VGA light weight monitors? Doug

8 years, 6 months

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Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus

by spacewar＠gmail.com

On Nov 20, 2017 7:41 AM, "Tapley, Mark via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: Catching up late, sorry if this is an old question, but what did the Digital Group computers use? My recollection is that they offered cards with 6800, 6502, 8080, and Z-80 CPUs on the same bus, and that part of the system seemed to work reasonably well. The Digital Group had two separate buses, a memory bys and an I/O bus, as well as two other slot types incompatible with either bus, for a CPU card and a TVC (video and cassette) card. They didn't support interrupts or DMA on any bus. If you wanted to use an interrupt, you had to wire it over the top. Doc Suding said that he didn't put interrupts on the bus because (paraphrasing) they are complicated and you don't need them. As you say, they did support various CPUs, but not more than one in a system. I wouldn't recommend that anyone consider The Digital Group as an example of good bus design.

8 years, 6 months

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Looking for Silent 700 model 787 manual

by chrise＠pobox.com

I recently acquired a TI Silent 700 model 787 terminal. This cc 1980 unit is an interesting member of the Silent 700 family as it is capable of 120 chars/sec printing and has an internal 300/1200 baud direct connect modem that does Bell 103, Bell 212A and Vadic modulation in both originate and answer modes. It's a got a DB25 on the back for directly connecting serial but I don't have any documentation on how to choose the internal modem vs the DB25 for comms or any pinouts for this DB25 outside the usual expectations of RS232 on a DB25. Seeking any documentation that might be around. Happy to cover copying costs or purchase a manual if it is excess to someone's needs. Chris -- Chris Elmquist

8 years, 6 months

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Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Allison >> I would seriously consider shared data/address lines, like on the QBUS. > QBUS is wrapped around a subset of PDP11 and the unique processors made > to fit it. I did say "like ... the QBUS", not "the QBUS"! I was just trying to make the point that the original sketch assumed separate address and data lines, and that's an assumption worth looking at. > The bottom line is for every bus you have to get on and off with > devices to buffer ... The more you use the less card there is for other > things Yes, but that cuts both ways: multiplexed address and data also saves you a lot of bus transceivers. Noel

8 years, 6 months

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Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus

by brain＠jbrain.com

I'm currently working on a single board computer system, designing from scratch partially as an education experience, and also as something that might be of interest to others. I've laid out the first version of the SBC, and I realize it would cost nothing to add an edge connector on the PCB, allowing expansion options.? As well, assuming the design has any merit, I can see creating one of these SBcs for each family (8080/Z80, 65XX, 68XX, and maybe even 16 bit options like TMS9900, 68K, etc.) However, as the design is not *for* any purpose, and I've never designed a bus that could be shared among multiple CPUs, I am wondering what bus layout would satisfy the following criteria: * At least enough to support a traditional 8 bit CPU (A0-15,D0-7, RESET, READ/WRITE,CLOCK,INTERRUPTS) with potentially a few more address bits (A16-23) * Minimal number of bus signals to support multi-processors and peripheral cards, but not so few that usefulness is severely crippled * Easy to implement (minimize need for logic that serves to solely handle the bus) * (If 16 bit data bus is part of the design): Easy for 8 and 16 bit CPUs and peripherals to share the bus (Maybe this means 16 bit units need to be constrained to 8 bit, not sure) * Works out to a size that I can buy edge connectors cheaply (62 pin .100" connectors are looking like my cheap option at present) I looked at home computer busses (Atari, Apple, Commodore, Tandy, TI) for a bit of inspiration, but they all seem overly simplistic (not horrible, but hate to just punt on the idea).? I also looked at the ISA bus and the S-100 bus, but they are a bit overwhelming to me (I can grok all the signals, but ensuring they are all responsive seems like it will drive more logic be on the PCB jsut to handle the bus, and I am trying to keep costs very minimal). Thus, Is there a bus (or a fraction of a bus standard) that I should consider to accommodate the above?? Anyone else interested in this idea and in a collaborative mood? Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com

8 years, 6 months

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Wanted: HP7970 hub mech

by cclist＠sydex.com

This is a pretty far-fetched request, but here goes. The quick-release levers on the HP 7970 tape drive are plastic. They're starting to get brittle. I've got one that's showing cracks, so I swapped it the the one on the takeup reel, as that one doesn't see as much action as the one on the supply reel. What I'd really like to find is the older twist-to-tighten mechanisms on the 7970. I suppose I can get busy in my shop and make some, but I'm wondering if there are any lurking in someone's hell box. Thanks for reading! Chuck

8 years, 6 months

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Ideas for a simple, but somewhat extendable computer bus

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Allison > simple 16 data, 24 address likely 6 lines for basic control plus others > your up to 50+ lines I would seriously consider shared data/address lines, like on the QBUS. It doesn't add _that_ much complexity to share the lines (I did a slave device using only 74xxx parts, and it was dead simple - probably a goal of the designers), and it will really drop the pin count. The speed impact is not too bad - on reads, where the address and data naturally happen at different times, it can be none. Noel

8 years, 6 months

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Slightly OT: Computer internals book recommendations

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Sophie Haskins > earlier editions of "Computer Systems: A Programmers Perspective" had a > bunch of discussions of buses etc .. but the edition I have explicitly > calls out that they felt like it wasn't important to have chapters on > anymore :( Well, that might not be the wrong call, _iff_ keeping them in would have increase the cost of the text-book for (poor) student... And for the rest of us, there's ABE for the earlier editions! :-) Which edition do you have, may I ask? Thanks! Noel

8 years, 6 months

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cctalk Digest, Vol 38, Issue 16

by petermallan＠gmail.com

Thanks Chunk. I am going to see if Manchester University library has any old documentation that might help. Cheers Peter On 17 November 2017 at 18:00, <cctalk-request at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and > HPIB Floppy Drive (Geoffrey Reed) > 2. Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and > HPIB Floppy Drive (Chuck Guzis) > 3. Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and > HPIB Floppy Drive (Liam Proven) > 4. Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and > HPIB Floppy Drive (Fred Cisin) > 5. TI NaturalLink Disks and Docs (Jason T) > 6. Re: HP 9836U processor mystery... (Josh Dersch) > 7. Re: Playing with HP2640B (CuriousMarc) > 8. Re: Cases (display) for beloved ISA cards? (CuriousMarc) > 9. Re: Playing with HP2640B (Christian Corti) > 10. Re: Playing with HP2640B (David Collins) > 11. Re: Playing with HP2640B (David Collins) > 12. Re: Playing with HP2640B (Mattis Lind) > 13. RE: Playing with HP2640B (Rik Bos) > 14. DR-DOS (Liam Proven) > 15. Re: TI NaturalLink Disks and Docs (Jason T) > 16. Re: DR-DOS (Liam Proven) > 17. Re: DR-DOS (Liam Proven) > 18. Re: DR-DOS (william degnan) > 19. Re: Cases (display) for beloved ISA cards? (Anders Nelson) > 20. Re: DR-DOS (geneb) > 21. Re: DR-DOS (Liam Proven) > 22. Re: DR-DOS (Liam Proven) > 23. Re: DR-DOS (geneb) > 24. Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive > (Eric Schlaepfer) > 25. Manchester University Joint System in the 1970s (Peter Allan) > 26. Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive (Paul Berger) > 27. Re: Playing with HP2640B (Christian Corti) > 28. Re: Manchester University Joint System in the 1970s (Chuck Guzis) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:30:08 -0800 > From: Geoffrey Reed <geoffr at zipcon.net> > To: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>, "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and > HPIB Floppy Drive > Message-ID: <D63332E6.5367F%geoffr at zipcon.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" > > > > On 11/15/17, 9:44 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk" > <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >Can you name another 20 exceptions? (Chuck and Tony probably can) > > > > > >-- > >Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > > ?Floptical? disks 720 rpm 1.6 Mb/s transfer 1250 TPI and 25MB unformatted > capacity > > LS-120 and LS-240 (which sadly I can?t remember the specs of :( > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 12:51:19 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> > To: Geoffrey Reed via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and > HPIB Floppy Drive > Message-ID: <a5877e73-9b6c-f5fa-afdf-ef59f1f6caa1 at sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > On 11/16/2017 12:30 PM, Geoffrey Reed via cctalk wrote: > > > ?Floptical? disks 720 rpm 1.6 Mb/s transfer 1250 TPI and 25MB > unformatted > > capacity > > > > LS-120 and LS-240 (which sadly I can?t remember the specs of :( > > How about the Caleb "it" drive (UHD144): > > http://www.obsoletemedia.org/caleb-uhd144/ > > I've still got a stack of those drives and media. > > Or the DTC "TakeTen" drive (got the drive but no media), or the Qume > Hyperflex drive or the Kodak/Drivetec floppy drives or the DTC TeamMate > for Apple... > > The list is very long indeed. > > --Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 23:28:19 +0100 > From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> > To: Geoffrey Reed <geoffr at zipcon.net>, "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and > HPIB Floppy Drive > Message-ID: > <CAMTenCE8EoxJxw_W_wBz+53Hfp752Ji2+kw60X8LKxoecvon3A@ > mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On 16 November 2017 at 21:30, Geoffrey Reed via cctalk > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ?Floptical? disks 720 rpm 1.6 Mb/s transfer 1250 TPI and 25MB > unformatted > > capacity > > Just FYI, your quote marks render on Linux as superscript 2s. > > Using an Apple device? You might want to turn off smart quotes... > > https://www.jordanmerrick.com/posts/ios-11-smart-punctuation/ > > http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/09/26/tips-turn- > off-ios-11-smart-punctuation-to-avoid-data-entry-problems > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 15:27:53 -0800 (PST) > From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Drive capacity names (Was: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and > HPIB Floppy Drive > Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1711161437490.4440 at shell.lmi.net> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > >>> No, the 9122C has two high-density, two-sided 80 cylinder drives. A > drive > >>> has no capacity, this is the function of the on-disk format. > >>> ;-) > >> > >> "high-density" is even more meaningless than referring to them by their > >> capacity in a given format. It is a BOGUS marketing term! > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > Fred, you should know by now that you don't need to tell *me* the correct > > definitions and terms. > > I know that, but I was addressing the entire group with my rant, and not > everybody is as closely familiar with these details as you are. > > > And with "high-density", I didn't mean the media capacity but the analog > > recording aspects like coercivity, write current, frequency and so on. > > Actually, when speaking about the MEDIA, it is much easier to create a > name that is both accurate and unambiguous. > For example, with 5.25" disks, we have "5.25 inch with 300 Oersted" and > "5.25 inch with 600 Oersted". > Of course, if somebody wants to be difficult, there are still variant > forms, including both 10 and 16 sector hard-sectored, Amlyn 600 Oersted > with special cutouts for the disk changer, Twiggy, no-notch disks for some > minor tamper resistance in software distribution, etc. > > >> Unformatted capacity would be a more correct nomenclature, although ... > > Unformatted capacity doesn't tell you much without reference to the > recording > > layout, i.e. no. of tracks, modulation, frequency and so on. > > True. > > >> Some specifications: > >> 5.25" MFM "High Density" was 360 RPM at 500,000 bits per second. (about > 1M > >> unformatted per side) > > > > What about 5?" FM "High Density" at 360 RPM? > > By "Some specifications", I meant specifications of SOME examples of the > most common form of each size. I was absolutely not intending it to be > an exhaustive, comprehensive list of all possibilities. > > > > The Amiga (more exactly, the "HD" Chinon FZ-357A drives used in Amigas) > > switched to 150 RPM to keep the raw bit rate at 250kbits/s. > > THAT is exactly what I was including as examples in my later "exceptions" > list. Although a different disk size, that is the same engineering kludge > as the Weltec 5.25" 180RPM drive. > > >> 3.5" MFM "ED" (vertical recording?/barrium ferrite) were 300 RPM at > >> 1,000,000 bits per second. (2M unformatted per side) NeXT referred to > >> theirs by the unformatted capacity: 4M, further confusing their users. > > What about FM? > > Again, just listing examples of most common, NOT intending it as a list of > all possibilities that were theoretically possible. I have never seen an > ED disk recorded FM, and do not believe that there was ever a commercial > system that used that. If you know of one, please give us the details! > > > >> Can you name another 20 exceptions? (Chuck and Tony probably can) > > > > Do you want me to start with things like 100tpi drives, GCR, M?FM, > > hard-sectored and other crazy formats? > > It can be a very long list. I was trying to stick with ones that were > very close to the main branch of our "current" evolutionary tree, but > there isn't a clear boundary. I estimate that there were approximately > 2500 different microcomputer floppy disk formats, with a large portion of > those being variant forms, not just different choices of number and size > of sectors, directory location and structure, etc. > I implemented just over 400 formats in XenoCopy that were straight-forward > to handle with IBM PC hardware. Those are not all that could have been > implemented, nor does it deny the existence of many variants, or > completely different ones that are not feasable with PC. > > > Just accept that I am not as dumb as you may think. > > I have NEVER thought that you were dumb. Everything that I have seen > of your posts has been competent and well-informed. But, I don't think > that you follow what I was attempting to convey. > > I wanted to: > 1) rant about marketing creating terminology, including "double density" > and "high density". And creating a new definition of Megabyte (1,024,000) > for the "1.44M" format (1,474,560 bytes/1.40625Mebibytes) > > 2) state my opinion that using the specific one that comprises at least > 75%? of the use of a given configuration as the name for that > configuration creates a name that is admittedly inaccurate, and fraught > with exceptions, nevertheless relatively unambiguous, at least to the > extent that purchases will usually be usable. > > If I buy "360K diskette", it will usually be the 300 Oersted 5.25 inch, > and be the closest of what is available to buy for 87.5K TRS80, > Apple2, PET, Osborne, PC 160K/180K/320K/360K, DEC Rainbow, Canon AS100, > Elcompco, Eagle, Otrona, etc. > Yes, there were people who used 41 or 42 tracks of a 40 track drive, but I > consider those to be "corner cases", to be considered as alterations, not > as the main form. > Admittedly, there were differences in testing between SSSD, DSSD, DSSD, > DSDD, and 48tpi v 96tpi marketing of disks with the same chmical > formulation. Purchasing diskettes now for something such as a DEC > Rainbow, I would settle for the 360K testing. > > If I buy "720K 3.5 inch diskette", I expect to receive 600 Oersted 3.5" > > If I buy "1.44M Diskette", I expect to receive a "HD" 3.5 inch diskette, > with about 720 to 780 Oersted. > > > BUT, as you've pointed out, when we refer to the DRIVE, we can't really be > certain that it won't be misinterpreted unless we list every spec that we > expect it to conform to. Or order by manufacturers model number. > Shugart/Matsushita 455/465/475 > Tandon TM100-2/TM100-4 > Teac 55B, 55F, 55G, 55FG, etc. > (EXAMPLES. NOT TO BE CONSTRUED AS A "complete" LIST) > > BTW, Tandon made a 100tpi drive (TM100-4M) for Micropolis compatability, > but many/most? of those are mislabelled "TM100-4" (missing that critical > 'M' modifier!) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 21:16:08 -0600 > From: Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: TI NaturalLink Disks and Docs > Message-ID: > <CAEfH1SGBOxKUXW3rQmNGaLxsnVDZ3=D-Pe-+A9NTLRFtjJ+itg at mail. > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I have imaged disks and scanned docs for an old software authoring > tool from Texas Instruments, "NaturalLink". It runs on early IBM PCs > and was included with some docs I was given for the TI Professional > Computer, an almost-PC clone. There are a number of ads and articles > about NaturalLink in the various trade mags available via Google > Books. > > The docs are here: > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FTI/NaturalLink > > And the disk images are here: > > http://nocarrier.net/archive/floppy_images/PC/TI/NaturalLink/ > > Regular 360k MS-DOS images. I haven't tried them in DOSBox yet but > it'll probably run there. > > I have the original manuals, along with some other Professional > Computer manuals that were already on Bitsavers, free for shipping if > anyone wants them. They're not light. I can include the NaturalLink > disks as well, otherwise those will stay in my library. Unfortunately > I don't have any of the (special format) OS media for the > Professional. > > Enjoy! > > -j > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 20:11:57 -0800 > From: Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: HP 9836U processor mystery... > Message-ID: > <CADBZjLZ9AeUWiQhuo_-F+xZjPA=p9De=MDG3n+km0tRWWyTAfQ at mail. > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:59 PM, Tony Duell <ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 4:52 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk > > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > I'm curious if other people out there with 9836U's can confirm whether > > their > > > machine has a 68000 or a 68010 in it, I'd just like to settle the > > internet > > > discrepancy once and for all :). > > > > Mine identifies the CPU as a 68010 in the power-on diagnostic. But from > > what > > I remember the PGA socket could also take a 68012 (with extra address > pins > > brought out). I don't have such a chip, so no idea what it would identify > > as. > > > > I picked up a 68012 (cheap) and stuck in in the 9836U this evening. It > works, and is identified as a 68012 during power-up diagnostics. > > So now we know. Now what am I gonna do with all that address space? :) > > - Josh > > > > > > > -tony > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 23:12:54 -0800 > From: CuriousMarc <curiousmarc3 at gmail.com> > To: Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com>, "General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Playing with HP2640B > Message-ID: <C27C94AA-8CEB-4330-9D51-760B18A13CB1 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > What did you do for the screen mold? Hot wire method to separate CRT from > implosion window? Put the CRT in a hot water bath? Chip at the glue? > Marc > > > > On Nov 15, 2017, at 11:48 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I have been working on a HP 2640B terminal. It was mostly about fixing the > "screen mold" problem and cleaning up the liquids that had been seeping out > from the screen down into the bottom. > > The small coaxial wire that connects the 4.9152 MHz clock signal form the > power supply (never seen a crystal controlled SMPSU before!) to the > backplane was broken off, but after fixing that the terminal worked fine. > Just needed some adjustment to the brightness. > > With the correct terminfo installed it worked quite well as a serial > terminal to a Linux box. > > Then I tried the short 8008 programs that Christian Corti pointed to > > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/hp2644/diag.html > > and > > ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/hp2644 > > I tried both a couple of times. The terminal enter the LOADER mode but just > hangs completely at the end. I tried different baudrates but no difference. > > The selftest STATUS line tell me 40<802 which should indicate that there > are 4k memory in the terminal. However there should be 5k since there is > one 4k board and one combined control store and 1 k RAM board. Maybe there > is a fault in the 1k SRAM? The terminal doesn't complain though. > > Regardless, the programs listed either starts at adress 30000 or 36000 > which should then be within the available space. > > The question is, should these program work for the HP2640B as well? It has > a 8008 but my guess is that the firmware is different from the 2644. What > is the joint experience regarding this? Has anyone ran these small programs > above on a HP2640B? > > The HP 2640B firmware consists of four EA 4900 ROM chips which annoyingly > are not anything like normal EPROMs. So dumping will need special > considerations. > > Has anyone dumped the HP 2640B firmware already? I didn't find it on > bitsavers. > > /Mattis > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 23:25:43 -0800 > From: CuriousMarc <curiousmarc3 at gmail.com> > To: Ethan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Cases (display) for beloved ISA cards? > Message-ID: <DCE4C2E5-58CF-4CEF-87F0-B0B11833D622 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I use shadow boxes from Michael's to display my boards. They have many > kinds > http://www.michaels.com/-black-shadowbox-studio-decor/ > M10322044.html?dwvar_M10322044_color=Black > Marc > > > > On Nov 16, 2017, at 8:04 AM, Ethan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > This message has no content. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 10:09:58 +0100 (CET) > From: Christian Corti <cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Playing with HP2640B > Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1711170954380.25118 at linuxserv.home> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, CuriousMarc wrote: > > What did you do for the screen mold? Hot wire method to separate CRT > > from implosion window? Put the CRT in a hot water bath? Chip at the > > glue? Marc > > What we did on one of our 2645 terminals was the hot wire method. We then > attached the "implosion" window to the inner of the case. > > BTW is it really an implosion protection? I don't think so because since > the 60s, practically all CRTs have a so-called "integral implosion > protection" (thick glass on the front and metal band around the edge). I > think it is just an anti-glare filter glass. OTOH American CRTs may be > completely different in this aspect compared to European ones. > > Christian > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 20:10:25 +1100 > From: David Collins <davidkcollins2 at gmail.com> > To: CuriousMarc <curiousmarc3 at gmail.com>, "General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Playing with HP2640B > Message-ID: <45A317C7-55D2-49BC-892D-460322C6EDB8 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Marc, in addition to Mattis? forthcoming reply, my recent experience with > a moldy 2624A was that the hot wire method was very poor. Too hard to get > the wire in, didn?t melt the ?glue? very well, smelly. Gave up when the > wire broke. > > What worked best for me was a flat blade screwdriver that was small enough > to sit sideways in the gap between the front glass and the tube. I sliced > sections of the glue and picked them out with a hook. I also squirted in a > combination of RP7 and household cleaner but not sure either did anything > other than lubricate the surfaces - they may have helped lift the glue a > bit. > > My ?glue? was like a layer of silicon rubber which hung on for as long as > possible but I got it all off without any damage. > > I replaced the front glass and held it on with a bead of black silicon > rubber used for shower glass. I spaced it from the tube with pieces of wire > around the edges and pulled them out when the silicon dried. > > Worked well for me but keen to hear how Mattis went. > > I didn?t try the hot water soak but it would probably help. > > David Collins > > > > On 17 Nov 2017, at 6:12 pm, CuriousMarc via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > What did you do for the screen mold? Hot wire method to separate CRT > from implosion window? Put the CRT in a hot water bath? Chip at the glue? > > Marc > > > > > > > > On Nov 15, 2017, at 11:48 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I have been working on a HP 2640B terminal. It was mostly about fixing > the > > "screen mold" problem and cleaning up the liquids that had been seeping > out > > from the screen down into the bottom. > > > > The small coaxial wire that connects the 4.9152 MHz clock signal form the > > power supply (never seen a crystal controlled SMPSU before!) to the > > backplane was broken off, but after fixing that the terminal worked fine. > > Just needed some adjustment to the brightness. > > > > With the correct terminfo installed it worked quite well as a serial > > terminal to a Linux box. > > > > Then I tried the short 8008 programs that Christian Corti pointed to > > > > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/ > dev_en/hp2644/diag.html > > > > and > > > > ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/hp2644 > > > > I tried both a couple of times. The terminal enter the LOADER mode but > just > > hangs completely at the end. I tried different baudrates but no > difference. > > > > The selftest STATUS line tell me 40<802 which should indicate that there > > are 4k memory in the terminal. However there should be 5k since there is > > one 4k board and one combined control store and 1 k RAM board. Maybe > there > > is a fault in the 1k SRAM? The terminal doesn't complain though. > > > > Regardless, the programs listed either starts at adress 30000 or 36000 > > which should then be within the available space. > > > > The question is, should these program work for the HP2640B as well? It > has > > a 8008 but my guess is that the firmware is different from the 2644. What > > is the joint experience regarding this? Has anyone ran these small > programs > > above on a HP2640B? > > > > The HP 2640B firmware consists of four EA 4900 ROM chips which annoyingly > > are not anything like normal EPROMs. So dumping will need special > > considerations. > > > > Has anyone dumped the HP 2640B firmware already? I didn't find it on > > bitsavers. > > > > /Mattis > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 20:13:00 +1100 > From: David Collins <davidkcollins2 at gmail.com> > To: Christian Corti <cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>, "General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Playing with HP2640B > Message-ID: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Christian do you know the gauge of the wire you used ? And the current? > > Maybe I should try that approach again! > > David Collins > > > > On 17 Nov 2017, at 8:09 pm, Christian Corti via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 16 Nov 2017, CuriousMarc wrote: > >> What did you do for the screen mold? Hot wire method to separate CRT > from implosion window? Put the CRT in a hot water bath? Chip at the glue? > Marc > > > > What we did on one of our 2645 terminals was the hot wire method. We > then attached the "implosion" window to the inner of the case. > > > > BTW is it really an implosion protection? I don't think so because since > the 60s, practically all CRTs have a so-called "integral implosion > protection" (thick glass on the front and metal band around the edge). I > think it is just an anti-glare filter glass. OTOH American CRTs may be > completely different in this aspect compared to European ones. > > > > Christian > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 11:52:47 +0100 > From: Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com> > To: David Collins <davidkcollins2 at gmail.com>, "General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Playing with HP2640B > Message-ID: > <CABr82SJ6oWNN7Ga6LJ=5LYfoZj3EYStYDrFatZGBXBhoSCp5Gw at mail. > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > The screen on my HP2640 had degenerated quite far. It was only a spot in > the middle, 2 by 4 inch, that still attached the glass to the CRT. I used a > thin fish fillet knife to dig through the remaining glue. > > Before > > https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23622163_10155696765784985_ > 6518064439030378363_n.jpg?oh=44cbf7f7f00d6e25155c208124e20a38&oe=5AA7349D > > The result after: > > https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/23621971_10155696757184985_ > 1959733265676657917_n.jpg?oh=36a20689c0fb5a16de7fc4df138a40e0&oe=5A9993B1 > > > Anyhow, I researched the glue a bit. The glue is, as far as I understand, > PVAc (PolyVinylAcetate, sometimes also known as PVA). PVAc is not soluble > in water. It takes quite high temperature to melt it. However PVAc is > soluble in many esters. I bought some Butylacetate. It dissolves sample > bits of glue from HP2640 quite well and rapidly. Butylacetate has quite > high boiling temperature (about 120 degrees centigrade) and thus does not > evaporate that quickly. So my idea is now to test on a 2645 screen or VR201 > screen by adding some butylacetate and seal with some thin plastic wrap > foil and let it dissolve a bit. Then use the fish fillet knife again and > repeat the process. > > /Mattis > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 13:12:29 +0100 > From: "Rik Bos" <hp-fix at xs4all.nl> > To: "'Mattis Lind'" <mattislind at gmail.com>, "'General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: RE: Playing with HP2640B > Message-ID: <004401d35f9d$57dcf900$0796eb00$(a)xs4all.nl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I did it by heating the crt to about 50-60 degrees celsius and used a > putty-knife. > https://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/albums/72157689357633754 > The photos are from a Philips P2000M system but I did it the same way with > my 264X terminals and 9845's systems. > It takes about half an hour to heat and separate the screen from the crt . > > -Rik > > > The screen on my HP2640 had degenerated quite far. It was only a spot in > the > > middle, 2 by 4 inch, that still attached the glass to the CRT. I used a > thin fish fillet > > knife to dig through the remaining glue. > > > > Before > > > > https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0- > > 9/23622163_10155696765784985_6518064439030378363_n.jpg?oh=44cbf7f7f > > 00d6e25155c208124e20a38&oe=5AA7349D > > > > The result after: > > > > https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0- > > 9/23621971_10155696757184985_1959733265676657917_n.jpg?oh=36a20689 > > c0fb5a16de7fc4df138a40e0&oe=5A9993B1 > > > > > > Anyhow, I researched the glue a bit. The glue is, as far as I > understand, PVAc > > (PolyVinylAcetate, sometimes also known as PVA). PVAc is not soluble in > water. > > It takes quite high temperature to melt it. However PVAc is soluble in > many > > esters. I bought some Butylacetate. It dissolves sample bits of glue > from HP2640 > > quite well and rapidly. Butylacetate has quite high boiling temperature > (about > > 120 degrees centigrade) and thus does not evaporate that quickly. So my > idea is > > now to test on a 2645 screen or VR201 screen by adding some butylacetate > and > > seal with some thin plastic wrap foil and let it dissolve a bit. Then > use the fish > > fillet knife again and repeat the process. > > > > /Mattis > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 14:30:20 +0100 > From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> > To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: DR-DOS > Message-ID: > <CAMTenCEZycvAXZbfE8Zcz-_CE6Z70D5OTdGLMkHuDpBGJvZutQ@ > mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I hope this is vintage enough. > > I've been playing around some more with my projects to create VMs / > bootable USB keys with PC DOS 7.1 and DR-DOS. > > Right now I'm focusing on DR-DOS 7.1 and the DR OpenDOS Enhancement > Project, because that's FOSS and AFAICS it can be redistributed, which > I can't with DR-DOS 7.02/7.03/7.04/7.05 or DR-DOS 8/8.1, which were > commercially licensed. > > I found a download of the last build released: > > https://archiveos.org/drdos/ > > First, it's the wrong size. VirtualBox can't mount it. VMware can. > > I truncated it to exactly 2880 sectors using the advice from ``jleg094'' > here: > > https://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=39141 > > VBox mounts that. But it won't boot, nor in VMware -- it just > displays 2 dots and freezes. > > Embarrassingly late in the troubleshooting process, I've found why. > > I didn't think to check what was on the image! Foolish of me. > > I mounted it on a pre-booted VM and looked, and it's blank! There's > nothing in the image at all. > > So, I mounted the empty image file as a loop device, copied the boot > files in there and then the rest of the files in the distro archive. > > And lo, it works! It boots my VM just fine, and it's now running 7.01-08. > > All I need to do now is work out how to make the hard disk bootable, > and I'm in business. > > The DR-DOS 7 SYS command won't do it, as the files aren't named > IBMBIOS.COM and IBMSYS.COM -- they're DRBIO.SYS and DRSYS.SYS. > > I copied them to the expected names. SYS completes but the disk won't boot. > > Next step will be to try with Norton Disk Doctor. > > Anyway, if anyone wants a bootable diskette image with DR-DOS 7.01-08, > complete with FAT32 support -- apparently it can even boot from it -- > let me know. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 08:28:21 -0600 > From: Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: TI NaturalLink Disks and Docs > Message-ID: > <CAEfH1SFfc8ne599yLNgS2NJ4pS3TF_mba0CxZpMXuFXbyx2fEg at mail. > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Nov 16, 2017 21:16, "Jason T" <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > I have the original manuals, along with some other Professional > Computer manuals that were already on Bitsavers, free for shipping if > anyone wants them. They're not light. > > > Oops, forgot to mention location. I'm in the USA, near Chicago. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:10:21 +0100 > From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> > To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: DR-DOS > Message-ID: > <CAMTenCFFB4RK7vJGqR=mupppQpwHPiMbuehL-BX_XYG5tJfOeg at mail. > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Might be more helpful to include downloads! > > I'm still working on VMs, but I know have bootable diskette images of > both. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time either has > been made available. > > DR-DOS 7.08 is here: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/cz8nrdv7h4sgr6o/drdep7018.zip?dl=0 > > You'll need the rest of DR-DOS 7.01 to install a complete OS but > that's widely available. > > A bootable PC DOS 7.1 diskette image is here: > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/zsujtvp0gs44qcx/PCDOS71.vfd?dl=0 > > This is a VirtualBox disk image, containing the PC-DOS 7.1 files from > the IBM ServerGuide Scripting Toolkit, as made available by IBM and > described here: > > http://toogam.com/software/archive/opsys/dos/ibmpcdos/getpcd71.htm > > If you get that first, AIUI that gives you a licence to a personal-use > copy. I have not modified these files in any way except to combine the > separately-downloadable files and the boot disk image, and to remove > any non-PC DOS files from the disk image. > > Again, the rest of the OS must be taken from a copy of PC DOS 7.01. > That too is widely available. > > Feedback welcomed. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:12:08 +0100 > From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> > To: "Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: DR-DOS > Message-ID: > <CAMTenCH-N2WVbDffCsAdHixyMrm+cw1WBB=OqVoiR3WL7F=yJw at mail. > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > It is *not* my day. I don't know how a copy-and-paste of some plain > text magically acquired attachments; that was not intentional. My > apologies. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 10:12:55 -0500 > From: william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> > Subject: Re: DR-DOS > Message-ID: > <CABGJBueQSQ2q_9P5qaX=iX_nuA0+8YCXfWY1hUc=qGwJzGs2Yg at mail. > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I have a few original Dr dos disks. Versions 5, 6, 7. Would these help if > I am imaged and uploaded to my site? > > Bill Degnan > twitter: billdeg > vintagecomputer.net > On Nov 17, 2017 10:10 AM, "Liam Proven via cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Might be more helpful to include downloads! > > > > I'm still working on VMs, but I know have bootable diskette images of > > both. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time either has > > been made available. > > > > DR-DOS 7.08 is here: > > > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/cz8nrdv7h4sgr6o/drdep7018.zip?dl=0 > > > > You'll need the rest of DR-DOS 7.01 to install a complete OS but > > that's widely available. > > > > A bootable PC DOS 7.1 diskette image is here: > > > > https://www.dropbox.com/s/zsujtvp0gs44qcx/PCDOS71.vfd?dl=0 > > > > This is a VirtualBox disk image, containing the PC-DOS 7.1 files from > > the IBM ServerGuide Scripting Toolkit, as made available by IBM and > > described here: > > > > http://toogam.com/software/archive/opsys/dos/ibmpcdos/getpcd71.htm > > > > If you get that first, AIUI that gives you a licence to a personal-use > > copy. I have not modified these files in any way except to combine the > > separately-downloadable files and the boot disk image, and to remove > > any non-PC DOS files from the disk image. > > > > Again, the rest of the OS must be taken from a copy of PC DOS 7.01. > > That too is widely available. > > > > Feedback welcomed. > > > > -- > > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 10:35:13 -0500 > From: Anders Nelson <anders.k.nelson at gmail.com> > To: CuriousMarc <curiousmarc3 at gmail.com>, "General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Cases (display) for beloved ISA cards? > Message-ID: > <CAJ2mpAg1Vwn1+cKZ2znQqu7U97k1kwViyc3L+Bj+ > KnTcEJa6pg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I mounted a core memory plane in a shadowbox from Target and used a large > paperclip cut into sections as the mount hardware. Folded over and > hot-glued one end to the read of the shadowbox backing, placed the memory > plane at the desired height and folded over the other end of the paperclip > section. I also put a piece of heatshrink tubing on the paperclip end that > contacted the memory plane soas not to scratch it. > > Pictures: https://photos.app.goo.gl/dzSX21lOC34MaJxm2 > > =] > > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 2:25 AM, CuriousMarc via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I use shadow boxes from Michael's to display my boards. They have many > > kinds > > http://www.michaels.com/-black-shadowbox-studio-decor/ > > M10322044.html?dwvar_M10322044_color=Black > > Marc > > > > > > > > On Nov 16, 2017, at 8:04 AM, Ethan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > > This message has no content. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 07:44:16 -0800 (PST) > From: geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: DR-DOS > Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1711170743080.30810 at deltasoft.com> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Fri, 17 Nov 2017, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > > > I have a few original Dr dos disks. Versions 5, 6, 7. Would these help > if > > I am imaged and uploaded to my site? > > > > Liam, if you need me to I can build a full distro of OpenDOS 7 - I've got > a machine that I can build the original sources on. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 21 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 16:52:08 +0100 > From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> > To: william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: DR-DOS > Message-ID: > <CAMTenCEnjvFRMv6899eBOZBVcmCSkYQA0K9gcF+Ae0BDLTNnMw at mail. > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On 17 November 2017 at 16:12, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote: > > I have a few original Dr dos disks. Versions 5, 6, 7. Would these help > if > > I am imaged and uploaded to my site? > > What I'd suggest is checking what's there first. :-) > > I have DR-DOS 6, from VetusWare. There's a copy on WinWorld but it's > some homemade disks, lacking an installer, IIRC. > > I have physical media from the early 1990s somewhere! > > I have DR-DOS 7.01/02/03/04/05/8.0/8.1 mostly from WinWorld . > > I own an original open source release of 7.01, including sources, > direct from Caldera, on CD. This is from before they changed their > mind and back-pedalled. > > I have a full boxed copy of PC DOS 7. It was distributed with > Microsoft Virtual PC, which itself is a free download now. So the VM > is out there and freely available. > > My VM is built from the free download version, with ViewMax taken from > the download of DR DOS 6. > > I have a working VM of PC DOS 7.1 but I'm still working on that. I > don't currently have a bootable USB of it -- making new bootable > volumes is non-trivial. It's not as simple as SYS or FORMAT /S, alas. > Neither works. I don't think it was meant to, TBH. Ditto the later OEM > releases of DR DOS 7.04/05 -- these were only on Disk Manager and > PartitionMagic boot disks, AFAIK. The whole OS was not updated. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 22 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 17:03:25 +0100 > From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> > To: geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com>, "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: DR-DOS > Message-ID: > <CAMTenCFo9R+EHj9PxF-9xgFikXZQ1MdAyVaT37diA7GEmzT9M > w at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On 17 November 2017 at 16:44, geneb via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > Liam, if you need me to I can build a full distro of OpenDOS 7 - I've > got a > > machine that I can build the original sources on. > > Thanks! > > For now, I'm trying to avoid building anything. I believe that the > build process is horribly complex -- I can find the link to a > description of the horrors somewhere. Something like 9 different > compilers are apparently used. > > So I hope not to need that, but appreciate the offer! > > What I am planning to do is combine the released boot files for PC-DOS > 7.1 and DR-DOS 7.01-8, both with FAT32 and LBA support, with the rest > of the released OSes of both, to make something as complete as > possible. > > My plan is then to add on top of that a graphical shell -- DOSSHELL > for PC DOS, ViewMax for DR DOS. > > And then add some useful shareware/freeware utilities and apps, to > make a complete useful working environment, for example able to boot > off a USB stick for a distraction-free, non-Internet-capable, writing > tool. There seems to be considerable interest in such things these > days, and of course, the problem with apps that provide > distraction-free clean-screen writing/editing environments is that you > can always just switch apps to something else. > > I have DESQview and DESQview/X running in a VM, but not on bare metal. > QEMM seems to have problems on 21st century PC hardware, which is > perhaps unsurprising. > > On one of my own Lenovo notebooks, I have a bootable partition with PC > DOS 7.01, MS Word 6, WordPerfect 6.2, Norton Utilities and some other > tools. With power management, but not networking or anything. This > works for me, but they can't be distributed; they're licensed tools. > > MS Word 5.5 is a free download, though. I was planning to add tools > such as PC Write, PC Outline, As-Easy-As, WordPerfect Editor, a Norton > Commander clone -- stuff that _is_ distributable. > > I also need to add a current DOS antivirus, unfortunately. I think > there still are some. > > The theory is to produce something functionally rich that runs in a VM > -- because then I know the hardware environment and can configure > things for it. And something much less functionally-rich that can boot > and run off a USB stick on almost any hardware. > > DR-DOS should be re-distributable. PC DOS, I fear not, at least not > fully legitimately. But my download diskette image contains nothing > that IBM itself currently does not offer for free unrestricted > download. I'm hoping that the company will tolerate that, at least. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 23 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 08:20:06 -0800 (PST) > From: geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DR-DOS > Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.03.1711170817380.32638 at deltasoft.com> > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Fri, 17 Nov 2017, Liam Proven wrote: > > > On 17 November 2017 at 16:44, geneb via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > >> > >> Liam, if you need me to I can build a full distro of OpenDOS 7 - I've > got a > >> machine that I can build the original sources on. > > > > Thanks! > > > > For now, I'm trying to avoid building anything. I believe that the > > build process is horribly complex -- I can find the link to a > > description of the horrors somewhere. Something like 9 different > > compilers are apparently used. > > > If you've got the same MRS disc that Roger sent me, you've got the whole > build environment already. You can kick it off with a single command. > The only caveat is that you need to boot into OpenDOS/DR-DOS in order to > get enough free lower RAM to run the build process. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 24 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 09:04:07 -0800 > From: Eric Schlaepfer <schlae at gmail.com> > To: Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive > Message-ID: > <CAJEzEZGKGL0Yh8LuLnAVEBQmXWbY_3MjwFN6hx42bEDGvQNc5Q at mail. > gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Check your email. How can you tell if it uses a 600 RPM mechanism or not? > > On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote: > > > Hi Eric, > > > > It's not urgent, but when you have a chance, could you dump the 9122C > > ROM(s) and take high resolution photos of the controller board? > > > > Since it does HD, I suspect it probably does not use a 600 RPM mechanism. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Best regards, > > Eric > > > > > > On Nov 15, 2017 17:45, "Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid > out > >> a > >> board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be > >> cheaper > >> for me to buy that instead. > >> > >> I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't > use > >> it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300. > >> > >> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk < > >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> > wrote: > >> > > > >> > > wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85? > >> > > > >> > > >> > I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :) > >> > > >> > I?ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) > >> > which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the > >> Extended > >> > Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let > my > >> A > >> > model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the > >> Amigo or > >> > SS-80 protocols. > >> > > >> > I?d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time > >> finding > >> > 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don?t > talk, > >> so > >> > that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5? DD > >> > media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) > other > >> > 3.5? HPIB floppy drives. > >> > > >> > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 25 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 17:24:00 +0000 > From: Peter Allan <petermallan at gmail.com> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Manchester University Joint System in the 1970s > Message-ID: > <CAJCrz550ajCzQuMz-t+zMF34Dk3YwtvwPCGU0Om9swUg- > MkXhQ at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I was a student at Manchester University from 1974 to 1980. During that > time I used the University of Manchester Regional Computer Centre (UMRCC) > computer system. The so-called Joint System consisted of a CDC 7600 with an > ICL 1906A front end. We used to submit card decks via a Systime (a PDP-11 > clone, I believe) that functioned as a remote job entry service. > > I am trying to find out information about the structure of those card decks > (mine were used for shopping lists years ago), and in particular, what the > first card in the deck was that routed the job to the correct computer. > > I have found information about JOB cards for both ICL computers running > George 3 and for the CDC 7600 running SCOPE 2.1 (which is what the > computers ran), but I believe that neither of these gives the full story > about what we used on the Joint System. > > Does anyone who used this system, or similar ones in the UK, recall > anything relevant? > > If you have suggestions about where else to post this query, I would be > grateful for that too. > > Cheers > > Peter Allan > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 26 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 13:26:05 -0400 > From: Paul Berger <phb.hfx at gmail.com> > To: Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive > Message-ID: <71be6676-c829-33e3-4e48-b3ca4eedcefc at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > I just checked my 9122C I happen to have open and the interval between > index pulses is 199.66mS? which would be 300 RPM, which is good news for > me I can now proceed with adapting a more common 1.44 drive to replace > my broken one. > > Paul. > > > On 2017-11-17 1:04 PM, Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk wrote: > > Check your email. How can you tell if it uses a 600 RPM mechanism or not? > > > > On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 3:17 AM, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Hi Eric, > >> > >> It's not urgent, but when you have a chance, could you dump the 9122C > >> ROM(s) and take high resolution photos of the controller board? > >> > >> Since it does HD, I suspect it probably does not use a 600 RPM > mechanism. > >> > >> Thanks! > >> > >> Best regards, > >> Eric > >> > >> > >> On Nov 15, 2017 17:45, "Eric Schlaepfer via cctalk" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid > out > >>> a > >>> board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be > >>> cheaper > >>> for me to buy that instead. > >>> > >>> I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't > use > >>> it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300. > >>> > >>> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk < > >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>>> > >>>>> On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk < > >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >>>> wrote: > >>>>> wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85? > >>>>> > >>>> I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :) > >>>> > >>>> I?ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) > >>>> which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the > >>> Extended > >>>> Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let > my > >>> A > >>>> model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the > >>> Amigo or > >>>> SS-80 protocols. > >>>> > >>>> I?d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time > >>> finding > >>>> 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don?t > talk, > >>> so > >>>> that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5? DD > >>>> media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) > other > >>>> 3.5? HPIB floppy drives. > >>>> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 27 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 18:31:07 +0100 (CET) > From: Christian Corti <cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Playing with HP2640B > Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.20.1711171829260.29647 at linuxserv.home> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Fri, 17 Nov 2017, David Collins wrote: > > Christian do you know the gauge of the wire you used ? And the current? > > It was a wire for cutting polystyrene blocks. The current was a fews > amperes, I think, driven off a bench power supply. > > Christian > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 28 > Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2017 09:57:36 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Manchester University Joint System in the 1970s > Message-ID: <0ba9f9e5-3b8d-cbbb-5d91-e1a9b9f10e48 at sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > On 11/17/2017 09:24 AM, Peter Allan via cctalk wrote: > > I was a student at Manchester University from 1974 to 1980. During that > > time I used the University of Manchester Regional Computer Centre (UMRCC) > > computer system. The so-called Joint System consisted of a CDC 7600 with > an > > ICL 1906A front end. We used to submit card decks via a Systime (a PDP-11 > > clone, I believe) that functioned as a remote job entry service. > > > > I am trying to find out information about the structure of those card > decks > > (mine were used for shopping lists years ago), and in particular, what > the > > first card in the deck was that routed the job to the correct computer. > > I can't help you with your specific case, other than to mention that > Purdue University for a time used a 6500 front-ended by a couple of IBM > 7094s (IIRC, and it's been a long time--could have been 7090s), that > might give you a clue. The VIM community wasn't large. > > >From my own experience with 6000s, the SCOPE 1BJ overlay was heavily > modified by various sites. I imagine that the corresponding code in > the SCOPE 2.x JS code was similarly tweaked. > > --Chuck > > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 38, Issue 16 > ************************************** >

8 years, 7 months

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Manchester University Joint System in the 1970s

by petermallan＠gmail.com

I was a student at Manchester University from 1974 to 1980. During that time I used the University of Manchester Regional Computer Centre (UMRCC) computer system. The so-called Joint System consisted of a CDC 7600 with an ICL 1906A front end. We used to submit card decks via a Systime (a PDP-11 clone, I believe) that functioned as a remote job entry service. I am trying to find out information about the structure of those card decks (mine were used for shopping lists years ago), and in particular, what the first card in the deck was that routed the job to the correct computer. I have found information about JOB cards for both ICL computers running George 3 and for the CDC 7600 running SCOPE 2.1 (which is what the computers ran), but I believe that neither of these gives the full story about what we used on the Joint System. Does anyone who used this system, or similar ones in the UK, recall anything relevant? If you have suggestions about where else to post this query, I would be grateful for that too. Cheers Peter Allan

8 years, 7 months

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Cases (display) for beloved ISA cards?

by curiousmarc3＠gmail.com

I use shadow boxes from Michael's to display my boards. They have many kinds http://www.michaels.com/-black-shadowbox-studio-decor/M10322044.html?dwvar_… Marc On Nov 16, 2017, at 8:04 AM, Ethan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: This message has no content.

8 years, 7 months

2
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TI NaturalLink Disks and Docs

by silent700＠gmail.com

I have imaged disks and scanned docs for an old software authoring tool from Texas Instruments, "NaturalLink". It runs on early IBM PCs and was included with some docs I was given for the TI Professional Computer, an almost-PC clone. There are a number of ads and articles about NaturalLink in the various trade mags available via Google Books. The docs are here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FTI/NaturalLink And the disk images are here: http://nocarrier.net/archive/floppy_images/PC/TI/NaturalLink/ Regular 360k MS-DOS images. I haven't tried them in DOSBox yet but it'll probably run there. I have the original manuals, along with some other Professional Computer manuals that were already on Bitsavers, free for shipping if anyone wants them. They're not light. I can include the NaturalLink disks as well, otherwise those will stay in my library. Unfortunately I don't have any of the (special format) OS media for the Professional. Enjoy! -j

8 years, 7 months

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HP 9836U processor mystery...

by derschjo＠gmail.com

Hi all -- I mentioned a few weeks back that I picked up an HP 9836CU workstation.? The "U" variant differs from the normal 9836 in that it contains an upgraded CPU board that allows it to run early versions of HP-UX.? (The "C" indicates that this machine has a color display, which is also cool but not what I want to talk about here today.) Information on the Internet varies about what microprocessor the 9836U actually contains -- some sources say it's a 12Mhz 68010, some say it's a 12Mhz 68000.? I found some internal HP marketing text that corroborates the straight-68000 story.? I'd link it here, but hpmuseum.net appears to be having technical issues at the moment. My 9836CU has the 12Mhz 68000 (HP internal part number 1820-3288) fitted in a socket on an 09836-66511 board (with the expected 16K SRAM cache and MMU logic) and the processor is identified at power-up as a 68000. Just for fun, I swapped the processor with a PGA 68010 and it powers up and runs just fine, and identifies the processor as a 68010.? (Still won't boot the copy of HP-UX 5.0 on the hpmuseum site, though...) I'm curious if other people out there with 9836U's can confirm whether their machine has a 68000 or a 68010 in it, I'd just like to settle the internet discrepancy once and for all :). - Josh

8 years, 7 months

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Playing with HP2640B

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

is there a dif between 40 a and 40 b with the firmware/loader/etc? Ed# In a message dated 11/15/2017 12:48:24 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: I have been working on a HP 2640B terminal. It was mostly about fixing the "screen mold" problem and cleaning up the liquids that had been seeping out >from the screen down into the bottom. The small coaxial wire that connects the 4.9152 MHz clock signal form the power supply (never seen a crystal controlled SMPSU before!) to the backplane was broken off, but after fixing that the terminal worked fine. Just needed some adjustment to the brightness. With the correct terminfo installed it worked quite well as a serial terminal to a Linux box. Then I tried the short 8008 programs that Christian Corti pointed to http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/hp2644/diag.html and ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/hp2644 I tried both a couple of times. The terminal enter the LOADER mode but just hangs completely at the end. I tried different baudrates but no difference. The selftest STATUS line tell me 40<802 which should indicate that there are 4k memory in the terminal. However there should be 5k since there is one 4k board and one combined control store and 1 k RAM board. Maybe there is a fault in the 1k SRAM? The terminal doesn't complain though. Regardless, the programs listed either starts at adress 30000 or 36000 which should then be within the available space. The question is, should these program work for the HP2640B as well? It has a 8008 but my guess is that the firmware is different from the 2644. What is the joint experience regarding this? Has anyone ran these small programs above on a HP2640B? The HP 2640B firmware consists of four EA 4900 ROM chips which annoyingly are not anything like normal EPROMs. So dumping will need special considerations. Has anyone dumped the HP 2640B firmware already? I didn't find it on bitsavers. /Mattis

8 years, 7 months

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Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers

by blstuart＠bellsouth.net

On Wed, 11/15/17, Jon Elson via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > PDP-5 and LINC certainly fit that requirement. Funny the LINC should come up tonight. Earlier this evening I went to a talk given by Mary Allen Wilkes who was the developer of the system software for the LINC. She had one in her parents' house around the 1965 timeframe. Here's a pic of her with that machine. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Mary_Allen_Wilkes_-_LIN… Hard not to call the LINC "personal" in that context. BLS

8 years, 7 months

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Cases (display) for beloved ISA cards?

by ethan＠757.org

Anyone have suggestions on a nice solid plastic case that could hold up to 13" ISA card? Something that isn't terribly larger than the card, but has room for anti static foam cutout for the card, and is clear at least on the top? So far the closest thing I can find would be cases from the jewelery world, but wonder if there is something better. -- : Ethan O'Toole

8 years, 7 months

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WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

PRM-85 ? cost? If I end up getting fascinated with the *% I may want to get one too.. First, I need to get it out and open and see what is all with it.. In a message dated 11/15/2017 5:45:42 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: It'd be interesting to find out how well that PRM-85 works. I've laid out a board for a rough equivalent but I haven't fabbed it out. It may be cheaper for me to buy that instead. I've also got a 9122C but I don't have the mass storage ROM so I can't use it with my 85. Right now I'm using it with my 9000 series 300. On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 8:26 PM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Nov 14, 2017, at 20:11, Ed Sharpe via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > wondervifcthec9122 drives,will work on 85? > > > > I think I can guess what you meant to say there... :) > > I?ve ordered a PRM-85 (a modern reprogrammable ROM drawer replacement) > which includes the HP-85B version of the Mass Storage ROM, and the Extended > Mass Storage ROM. Based on what I have read, I think that should let my A > model use the newer 9122C drive, and other drives using either the Amigo or > SS-80 protocols. > > I?d like to get the 9122C mostly because I have a much easier time finding > 1.44M media than the older double density media. eBay and I don?t talk, so > that limits my options a bit. If I had easy access to lots of 3.5? DD > media, then I would consider getting one of the more plentiful (?) other > 3.5? HPIB floppy drives. >

8 years, 7 months

2
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DEC Keyboards with sticky keys

by dj.taylor4＠comcast.net

I have a couple of LK401 keyboards and they generate a 'keyboard error - 4' error on power up test when attached to a VT420.? The problem seems to be one or more keys that are 'stuck on'. When the keyboard is turned upside down and shaken I can get the self test to pass. Is it possible to open the keyboards and repair this type of problem? I also have LK411 keyboards that have a PS/2 type of connector, is there an adapter to let me use these keyboards instead of the LK401s?? Are the signals the same, only the connectors being different? Doug

8 years, 7 months

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"Personal" Computers (Was: Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers)

by rickb＠bensene.com

I wrote: >> While the definition of the term "personal computer" varies depending >> on who is using the term, these machines, and others like them, were >> designed to be used at a much more personal level than the large-scale >> mainframe machines housed in the glass-walled rooms where only "special" people were allowed >> anywhere near them. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ To which, Rich A. replied: >This, like "Multics never got out of the lab", is a bogo-meme. (Thanks, Neil!) > People did not *need* to get near the mainframes in order to do their jobs, unlike the jobs for which the small systems > (and you forgot the PDP-11 in your list) were created. Most programming on mainframes was special purpose, batch oriented, data >processing connected to accounting systems (GL/AP/AR/PR), and a lot of the rest was high intensity engineering (where at this level >even physics is engineering) which needed lots of data handling for short runs. Yeah...I can agree with that. But, part of the talk was about getting "up close" with the computer, at a personal level - hands-on. The glass-walled room machines weren't that way, and thus weren't considered "personal computers", for just the reason you mentioned -- the work typically done on them was of a different class of work that didn't require any kind of hands-on activity with the machine (except for the operators, who loaded up the jobs, managed the tapes, and gathered the printouts). The discussion had gone from talk about the IBM 709/709X computers, which were more "glass room" type machines, to discussion about personal computers. I suffered some angst over the discussion of machines like Apple IIs or even Altair 8800's as the first personal computers, when in fact, the general term applied to computers that came long before these machines. Perhaps the glass-room meme isn't so much bogus, as it is a sign of the cultural times. In those days, the big machines were very expensive, and required a lot of support -- that meant special power, air conditioning, raised floors, and highly-trained people. The "management" of these big machine installations had a lot at stake...and as such, they were very protective of their machines, which is most of the reason they were encased in glass (they needed to be glass to be able to show them off without letting people in...in the days, big computer installations were class icons). It wasn't really so much that the work that the consumers (I wouldn't use the word "users" to describe them, because they were never really "using" the machine) of the results of the machines didn't need to have access to the machines...it was more because the management only wanted those who had all the necessary training and knowledge operating the machines to assure the maximum amount of productivity for their multi-million dollar investments to gain the best return on that investment, as well as safety for these "delicate" machines. As for the PDP-11, it was indeed a significant omission. Honestly, I ran out of time. I missed the PB 250, which certainly should have been on the list, and the PDP-11...and I'm sure that there are quite a number of other machines that were missed. Compiling a full list of this class of machines, even during this somewhat limited time period, would be a daunting process. There were many companies that popped up in the 1960s, along with those from established computer makers, that marketed small computers that were generally intended to be used on a single-user basis, by individuals. Examples off the top of my head are Computer Automation (PDC-808), Smith Corona/Marchant SCM 7816, 3M (yes, the adhesive people) 2018, Control Data 160/160-A, Digital Equipment PDP-1, HP 2100-series, Data Acquisition Corp. DAC-512.....it could go on and on. I was writing my message as I was getting ready to head off to work, and had to stop before I ended up being late. -Rick --- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com

8 years, 7 months

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IBM 360 front panel on ebay

by curiousmarc3＠gmail.com

The ebay seller of this IBM 360/40 front panel asked me if I could put a link on the list. So here it is: https://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-360-model-40-mainframe-CPU-Operator-panel/1527… Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with the seller other than he has contacted me after seeing one of my own videos about a 360/50 front panel. Marc

8 years, 7 months

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Bringing up the Sprite OS (Berkeley)

by classiccmp＠crash.com

I'm not sure where one might normally expect to discuss research operating systems from the 1980s and 90s, but since it ran on Sun-2 through Sun-4 and DECstations, I'll start here. I have the Sprite disk image for the DECstation 5000/200 running under GXemul (see https://github.com/OSPreservProject/sprite), but this is a minimal ~80MB image. I'm wondering if anybody has already gone through the exercise of figuring out how to create a new disk image large enough to, for example, load the source tree and see how far it is from compiling. My calendar is full until mid-December, so I won't be taking a swing at this in the next few weeks. But I had a moment and thought I'd start asking if anybody's been down this road in the past decade or two. Thanks, --S.

8 years, 7 months

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Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

Please, everyone, I do actually know of BitSavers; you don't need to point me at it. When I said: >> I could look at the engineering manuals, but I was hoping for something >> in between them and Bashe et al. I assumed everyone would understand that by "engineering manuals", I was meaning the kind of things one finds in BitSavers. Noel

8 years, 7 months

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Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Ben Franchuk > Multics never really made it out of the lab. This 'bogo-meme' (to use a word I coined) is, well, totally flat wrong. Multics was a reasonably successful product for Honeywell from the end of 1972 (when the H6180 was introduced) to around 1987 (when they stopped selling the DPS8/M, which had been introduced at the end of 1982). At its peak, in 1985, there were almost 100 Multics sites. MIT ceased to be involved in Multics development in 1977. Multics died not because it was a failure (indeed, many systems kept running for years, because the users liked it so much - the last one only shut down in 2000), but because of Honeywell's incompetence at the computer business. (That incompetence eventually resulted in a decision - probably correct from the _business_ point of view, given said incompetence - to get out of the computer business.) More here: http://multicians.org/myths.html and http://multicians.org/hill-mgt.html (which discusses the high-level corporate politics behind the decision to can Multics). Noel

8 years, 7 months

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cctech Digest, Vol 38, Issue 14

by stephen.m.pereira.sr＠gmail.com

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 1:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 15:56:31 -0800 > From: "Mark J. Blair" <nf6x at nf6x.net> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: WTB: HP-85 16k RAM Module and HPIB Floppy Drive > Message-ID: <0CB24DF8-6D74-4A25-9263-73B24EB19487 at nf6x.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I just got my HP-85 working for the first time over the weekend (except for its tape drive, which is still a work in progress). I'd like to acquire some accessories for it: > > 1) HP 82903A 16k RAM module > > 2) HP 9122C dual 1.44M 3.2" floppy diskette drive > > Do any of y'all have either of those items available for swap or sale? I'm located in southern California. > > Those two items are at the top of my HP-85 want list, but I might also be interested in other related bits such as the 82940A GPIO Interface, other compatible HPIB mass storage, etc. > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net> > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > > > ------------------------------ > Hi Mark, I believe that I have both of those things available. If you?re interested, please contact me at: stephen.m.pereira.sr AT gmail DOT com smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE

8 years, 7 months

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Two DEC RA90 and TS05

by emu＠e-bbes.com

Denver area, pickup only ... Anybody?

8 years, 7 months

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Need help with an odd design construct

by brain＠jbrain.com

Having picked up one of these little TI Compact Computer-40 (cc40) units over the Summer, I thought I'd work on reverse engineering a RAM cartridge for the unit. As shown on this forum: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/255728-the-compact-computer-40-cc40/?p=389… The design *appears* to havea? "floating" ground when powered off battery alone.? The cartrridge edge connector has 2 grounds.? I didn't think anything about them at first, assuming they were connected to each other. Hwoever, someone with a RAM cart is helping me reverse engineer, and it appears pin 1 ground is connected to the RAM GND pin, but is connected via a 6K8 resistor to the 3V battery ground, which is connected to pin 27 ground line. I *assume* this means that, once the cart is pulled, the battery voltage sits somewhere in the middle of the 5V swing the RAM needs to see, but I can;t figure out how one calculates the voltage divider value for the inherent resistance of an SRAM, as the 3V is sent through a germanium diode (bringing the effective Vcc of the SRAM to 2.7V), and then SRAM ground is sent through the 6K8 to battery ground. Obviously, reverse engineering being fraught with errors, we could be wrong, but assuming not, what is going on in this circuit, and how does one calculate the effective potential of the GND pin of the SRAM? Pics: http://www.go4retro.com/downloads/CC40RAM/ Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com

8 years, 7 months

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Free Not really old software

by jason＠smbfc.net

All, I picked up a big lot of stuff this past weekend.? Amongst the pile of quite desirable Apple items (Feb '84 Macintosh!!!) were versions of "Canvas" graphics software for Windows.? Boxed versions of Canvas 3, 5 and 6. Free if anyone wants it.? Comes with training material on VHS tapes! I'm not inclined to waste the shelf space on these myself. Pickup in Seattle or? I guess I'll ship it if you have a burning desire for it. http://archives.smbfc.net/uploads/retrocomputing/tmp/re_20171114_193434.jpg --Jason

8 years, 7 months

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Computing Pioneer Dies

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Brent Hilpert > What about that little issue of writeable program storage? Just to clarify my understanding of your position, is a system with a CPU chip (say one of the 68K models) with only ROM not a 'stored program machine'? Noel PS: You really should look at the book ("ENIAC In Action"), and not rely on the articles; it's later, more coherent (not being split across a handful of papers), and much more detailed (e.g. it includes the instruction set for the 'programmed' version of the ENIAC).

8 years, 7 months

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IBM 2501 + doc + spares available in EU.

by h.j.stegeman＠hccnet.nl

Hi, Available in the Netherlands a compleet IBM 2501 punch card reader with all IBM documentation and spares from a scrapped unit. Please contact me off-line if interrested. h.j.stegeman at hccnet dot nl. Regards

8 years, 7 months

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ModComp II on Ebay

by billdegnan＠gmail.com

Ebay item 272914490265 This is a ModComp IIC I think. It's all broken up in parts and half assembled. I don't think new it was barely $18,000 though, but some day, maybe the seller will give up and put up a realistic price. Who knows what's in it exactly but generally it looks like a communications model with a 7 or 9 track tape unit. The point of ModComp was to build custom systems but if the info on this system does not exist on BitSavers, let me know and I will scan some docs. I have info on the part numbers from the photos. The ModComp docs talk about IBM system emulation vs. DEC, so think along those lines more so, this is *not* a DataGeneral / DEC me-too despite looking a little like a PDP 8i BIll

8 years, 7 months

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Teletype's for Auction

by wsudol＠scng.com

For those who want/collect Teletype's, Here's 2 links to auctions. One is a pallet of pretty old stuff just labeled 'Teletype Machines' located in Dayton, Ohio https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/thompson-auctioneers/ca… The other one says Teletype mdl. 43 Data Terminal and Computer w/ Desk This is in South San Francisco and has some other stuff with it. https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/american-auctioneers-gr… Disclaimer, i have no affiliation to either site. In case the links don't go through, I found them through the "Bidspotter" site searching for "Teletype" https://www.bidspotter.com/ Wayne Sudol Riverside PressEnterprise A DigitalFirst Media Newspaper.

8 years, 7 months

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Details about IBM's early 'scientific' computers

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

So, I was trying to find info about the early IBM 709/7090/7094 computers, but when I went to what is supposedly the authoritative work on these computers (among others): Charles J. Bashe, Lyle R. Johnson, John H. Palmer, Emerson W. Pugh, "IBM's Early Computers", MIT Press, Cambridge, 1986 I discovered there was very little technical detail about these machines there. Is there any other printed thing (yes, I know a few Web pages have some content) that anyone knows of that covers them in more detail? (I have a 709/7090/7094 programming thing coming, but that won't cover the internal engineering.) Yes, I know, I could look at the engineering manuals, but I was hoping for something in between them and Bashe et al. Noel

8 years, 7 months

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Computing Pioneer Dies

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Evan Koblentz > That's the dumbest thing I read today. And that helped... how? Noel

8 years, 7 months

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Computing Pioneer Dies

by blstuart＠bellsouth.net

On Fri, 11/10/17, Dave Wade via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/nov/08/geoff-tootill-obituary This raises the question, is there anyone still alive from those first-generation projects? I had guessed that at age 101, Harry Husky was the last one still alive when he passed away earlier this year. To put a finer point on the question, is anyone who was involved with the original designs of the ENIAC, the Baby, the EDSAC, the Pilot ACE, the Z1, or the Harvard Mark I still with us? BLS

8 years, 7 months

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Need VT-100 switch

by mattislind＠gmail.com

I know that this an old thread, but I had another VT100 with broken power switch and so I dug up what I used to buy. This has quick connect tabs so it is needs no modifications to fit. It has a metal handle and feels quite sturdy. https://www.mouser.se/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=0virtualkey0virtualkeyST2… 2017-08-29 22:25 GMT+02:00 E. Groenenberg via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> : > > Thanks for the info. > I'm in the Netherlands, so no Home Depot branch here, but now I have seen > the picture of the replacement I can look locally or check with > digikey/farnell to see what they have in their catalog of switches. > > Regards, > > Ed > -- > Ik email, dus ik besta. > > > On Tue, August 29, 2017 21:47, Santo Nucifora via cctalk wrote: > > I've replied to this and helped someone else out before as it seems to be > > a > > frequent question. > > > > I've replaced two VT-100 switches with chrome "bat" handle switches from > > Home Depot in Canada shown here: > > https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.t...000104171.html > > <https://www.homedepot.ca/en/home/p.toggle-dpst-20a-125vac- > of-1cd.1000104171.html> > > The one at the USA Home Depot is here: > > https://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-Bender-20-Amp-Double- > Pole-Toggle-Switch-1-Pack-GSW-14/100149490 > > > > I had to remove the screws and filed the terminals down a little because > > the terminals were a little wider than the original connectors but it > > works > > like a charm and will not break. It is almost a direct replacement > (except > > for the terminals needing some filing). > > > > You can probably pick one up on the way home if you are in North America. > > > > Hope this helps. > > Santo > > > > On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 3:38 PM, John Wilson via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 09:04:11PM +0200, E. Groenenberg via cctalk > >> wrote: > >> >Does somebody maybe have a spare switch of a VT-100 (the one at the > >> back)? > >> > >> If you get stuck, there's a switch that's made as a replacement part for > >> Fender guitar amps which, apart from having a metal handle instead of > >> plastic, is a very close match to the VT100 power switch. Really it's > >> what DEC *should* have used ... > >> > >> John Wilson > >> D Bit > >> > > > >

8 years, 7 months

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Computing Pioneer Dies

by barythrin＠gmail.com

Can ya blame him? Back in his day 2s were *real* 2s.. bigger and tougher. You try and add 'em up, assuming they'd stay still long enough and stop wrastlin' with ya and who knows how big they'd be. -------- Original message --------From: Evan Koblentz via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> My own father does this and it drives me crazy. I'll say, "2+2=4" and he'll say, "I believe it's 5" ... DAD IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU FRIGGING BELIEVE, 2 PLUS 2 IS STILL 4!!!!!!

8 years, 7 months

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HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK

by curiousmarc3＠gmail.com

The link below is from the computer museum in Cambridge, UK, which seems to have a copy of an HP 2640 terminal manual I am looking for. Is anyone from that museum on the list? Does any of the UK members know them? http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/14373/HP-2640-Series-Character-Set-Ge neration/ Does anyone on the list have a copy of this manual? Marc

8 years, 7 months

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DEC 19" racks

by emu＠e-bbes.com

Hi all, anybody in Denver area is looking for some? (6 foot tall, grey) pickup only.

8 years, 7 months

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TEk4052/54 Diagnostic Rom pack docu available

by jos.dreesen＠greenmail.ch

There are a few people out there struggeling with their 4052's : On ftp.dreesen.ch/FTP/TEK4052 they will find description, schematic, pictures and romdumps for the Diagnostic ROM pack, as used by the TEK engineers in the day. Also listed are the the TEK-supplied CRC's for all ROMS in the 4052/54 systems. No special components used, so nothing to stop you building your own Diagnostic pack. If anyone does so they can contact me if they need further info. ?Jos

8 years, 7 months

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OT: Trying to fix my account

by isking＠uw.edu

Sorry for the spam - I'm trying some ideas to see if I can figure out why I don't get cctalk/cctech messages anymore (for about a month now). -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu> Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Principal Investigator, "Reflections on Early Computing and Social Change", UW IRB #42619 Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org> Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org> University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

8 years, 7 months

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Computing Pioneer Dies

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Dave Wade > ENIAC had been configured in stored program mode earlier in the year > and had run a program stored in the function switches, e.g. ROM > ... > Despite the fact that when running stored programs ENIAC's parallel > processing features were not available, it was exclusively in this mode > from 1948 onwards. This may have been mentioned here already, but if not, there's a good new book out which covers this phase of ENIAC's existence in considerable detail: Thomas Haigh, Mark Priestley, and Crispin Rope, "ENIAC In Action: Making and Remaking the Modern Computer", MIT Press, Cambridge, 2016 It's a very interesting and well-done book; I highly recommend it. > From: Brent Hilpert > The best that can be said for your position is that you (and the > ENIAC/Mauchlyite crowd) have a particular opinion and definition > regarding 'stored-program computer'. I'm harly a member of the "ENIAC/Mauchlyite crowd" (in fact, I used to not have a good impression of them at all), but I thought Haigh et al made a pretty good case. Noel

8 years, 7 months

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VCF PNW (Feb 2018): Second call Exhibitors and Speakers

by mbbrutman＠brutman.com

In case you missed it we (the Vintage Computer Federation) is putting together a Vintage Computer Festival (VCF PNW) at the Living Computer Museum+Labs in Seattle. We are actively looking for exhibitors and speakers for this new show. The show will be held February 10th and 11th, 2018. We are not planning to charge for admission to the show so visitors will be able to enjoy the museum, the exhibits, speakers and the consignment area all for the normal cost of museum admission. We would like to get exhibitor registrations wrapped up by the end of November so that we can move to the next stage of planning. If you have an idea for an exhibit and would like to hang out at the museum for two days talking vintage computers then consider signing up today. Have an interesting topic for a presentation? We need those too ... Newbies need not be scared; I'm new to this as well. More information can be found at http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-pacific-northwest/ . Please email me directly if you have questions or need encouragement. Regards, Mike Brutman michael at vcfed.org

8 years, 7 months

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RL02 Spinup fails

by billdegnan＠gmail.com

I have successfully built a rl02 disk using pdpgui on a windows XP laptop, the newer version works on window 10. All you need other than the software is a serial card like a m7800. Pdpgui acts as a gui. Do you have a m9312 rom/terminator card with a terminal console rom? Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Nov 11, 2017 7:04 AM, "Aaron Jackson via cctech" <cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Well, some progress. > > It seems that a terminator is not required so long as the cable is VERY > short. The controller RLV12 controller appears to have a few termination > resistors on it anyway. There is no fault light appearing and the drives > spin up fine. Mine cable is less than 20cm and the PDP is sitting just > on top of the drive. > > I can see that the drive is communicating because the lsb of the csr > changes flips between 0 and 1 when I load and unload the drive. > > I wanted to try and dump the disks using vtserver, but when I run the > copy program I end up with the following > > ]] Enter name of input record/device: rl(0,0,0) > ]] > ]] Can't get rl(0,0,0) sts > ]] rl(0,0,0) err cy=0, hd=0, sc=2, rlcs=142205, rlmp=0 > ]] rl(0,0,0) error reading labelsector > ]] Enter name of input record/device: > > The same happened on both packs - they have both been cleaned and look > as though they are in good condition. The heads have been cleaned too. > > Given that the drive appears to be communicating with the PDP-11, where > might this problem come from? > > Thanks, > > Aaron. > > Aaron Jackson via cctech writes: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave > > Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I > > tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into > > board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the > > fault light turned off. So that's positive. > > > > I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and > > generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I > > could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light > > returns. I made a short video demonstrating this: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U > > > > According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following > > reasons: > > > > - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start? > > - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first > > - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above > > - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start. > > - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far > > - Write data error... Same as above > > - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault? > > > > So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is > > slipping or something like that? > > > > Can anyone offer some advice? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Aaron. > > > -- > Aaron Jackson > PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham > http://aaronsplace.co.uk >

8 years, 7 months

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RL02 Spinup fails

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Aaron Jackson > The RL02 technical manual says to figure out why a drive error > occurred, I can execute a get status command (?) and then perform an > MPR read (?). So while I don't know how to do that, RLV 12 User Guide, section 5.2. Noel

8 years, 7 months

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WTB: DEC DE500-FA

by useddec＠gmail.com

Please contact me off list if you have any you want to trade or sell. Thanks, Paul

8 years, 7 months

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Computing Pioneer Dies

by dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com

https://www.theguardian.com/global/2017/nov/08/geoff-tootill-obituary Dave Wade G4UGM & EA7KAE

8 years, 7 months

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HP 2640 character set generation manual in the UK

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

Many Thanks for this. A useful addition to our HP docs here. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 11/9/2017 7:29:40 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: The manual has been scanned and is on our FTP server: ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/hp/hp2648/13245-90001_2640S eriesCharacterSetGeneration_Oct1975.pdf Enjoy :-) @Al: you may push it to bitsavers Christian

8 years, 7 months

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