- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by thedm＠sunflower.com

I have a pretty good inventory of these types of things, let me know exactly what you need, and I'll see if I have one. I may not have original IBM, but I can get you up. ---------- > From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: IBM XT Parts > Date: Sunday, July 06, 1997 12:45 AM > > > Does anyone know of a good second hand supplier of parts for XT's? > > I need a replacement keyboard, and would prefer to get an original > > replacement. Would also like to know where to get things like controller > > cards, full height IBM 360K floppy drives, and low capacity MFM and RLL > > harddrives. > > Stuff like you want isn't usually carried by the mainstream > merchandisers. (Though I'd expect you could find XT keyboards > without too much difficulty; I remember buying some keyboards at Fry's just > last year that were switchable between XT and AT via a little slide > switch on the bottom.) You're best bet is to hit the electronic > surplus stores in your area and dig through their bins. Here > in Vancouver, there's a place called "Computer Warehouse" which > has an excellent supply of XT- and AT-era hardware, including > floppies, controller cards, and MFM drives. When I lived in LA, > All Electronics (especially their big store on Oxnard in Van Nuys) > was a good source of this stuff. University and school surplus > auctions are also a good place to find this sort of stuff. > Tell us where you are and someone > local to you may be able to point you in the right direction. > > Tim.

28 years, 9 months

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pieces of metal and plastic

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

In message <199707031310.GAA04318(a)mx5.u.washington.edu> classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu writes: > I got more into the guts of the HP-71, which was a 20-bit, nybble-oriented. > It had a Saturn chip (I think), on which I programmed in FORTH. A FORTH > chip was talked about for the HP-41 (never heard it called a coco, though) > but I don't know if it jelled. 'Coconut' was certainly the code-name for the HP41 I also like the HP71B. They're very easy to find in the UK at the moment, and tend to sell for about \pounds 20.00. Forth/assembler ROMs are a lot rarer, though, but the built-in Basic is quite nice. I was very lucky - I managed to obtain all the technical docs on the HP71B, including a commented source of the ROMs. It's a very interesting machine internally. The Saturn (which is used in a lot of later HP handhelds, including the HP48 family) is a strange chip. I'd not call it 20 bit, though. Addresses (nybble addresses!) are 20 bits, most registers are 64 bits, and the ALU is (I think) 4 bits. Call it whatever size you like. > -tony >

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> From: ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > 4) Education. This includes 'writing programs for fun', understanding h > computers (hardware and software) works, etc. This is IMHO the main use > classic computers to the average person these days, and the way we'll a > more people into the hobby. I've said before that you can learn more ab > processor operation by spending a couple of days with a minicomputer CP > schematics for it and a 'scope than by sitting through most lecture cou > the subject. This I consider a big item. Some of the classic machines are significant in their simplicity or usful in that you can point to identifiable elements (ram, ALU, CONTROL). I frequently use the PDP-8 design for this as it's very simple and the instruction set is about as minimal as can be and still be useful. The same can be asid for some of the 8bitters as well. Allison

28 years, 9 months

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Question about Sanyo Lunchbox

by manney＠nwohio.com

> Robert Kirk Scott wrote: > > > > Has anyone got any ifo on a Sanyo lunchbox, model number MBC-675? > > It brings up a screen that says: > > > > 1701 > > 0 Hard Disks Installed > > ROM Bios v2.33 > > 640kb memory/ CPU clock 4.77MHz > > > > Then it just hangs. A boot disk will not work either. Does the floppy drive LED light up during startup? It should, whether or not the HDD works, and you should be able to boot from a floppy, even with a dead HDD. Therefore if a boot disk doesn't work, either your floppy system is defunct or it's in the motherboard. An easy fix -- which doesn't always work -- is to disconnect and replace all cables. It's fairly easy -- pull cables one end at a time *only*, so you don't forget where they went. Each device has 2 things going into it...a flat (usually, grey, sometimes blue) ribbon cable, for the data; and a power cable. Both are keyed, so you can't put them in backwards. Trace the data cable from the floppy(ies) back to the controller card, and pull & replace. Those are usually pins, and *can* be replaced backwards, so take care. You can swap the controller card into another slot -- any slot should work. If all slots are filled, exchange two cards. Chips work their way out of their sockets ("chip creep"); push every socketed chip back in. I have boxes of cables, controller cards and drives if you need any; e-mail me. If the floppy disk does its thing, are you sure the floppy itself is OK? It must be low density (you can tell by the hub ring) and have the proper files; try booting another machine with it. Not all DOS's will work on all machines -- I've even seen some older machines that won 't boot under DOS 6.x

28 years, 9 months

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Building User Communities (long)

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 02:04 PM 7/3/97 -0700, you wrote: >of the fun is sharing it with other TI users. And part of the fun of >having this old computer is that there are other people bucking the >trend along with me. In other words, we have a TI computer user >community, and that is a very hefty reason for sticking with the TI [...] >exciting new "modern applications" or attracting new people to adopt a >simple machine that can perform "common everyday household computing >tasks" that they DON'T need a Pentium to do. [...] >hoping to create a dialog for HOW to do this, particularly strategies to >attract people to join the community, and to share technology of "modern >applications" that one community may have successfully achieved and I am facing a similar situation in the Atari community. I have to admit that I gave away my 600XL in favor of the ST long before the thought of collecting computers ever hit me. Similarly, my ST's and Falcons are pretty much dedicated to studio stuff (and I don't get to "play" with that much these days) and I use my windows laptop almost exclusively (6-16hrs/day). Nonetheless, I am president of ABACUS, the Atari Bay Area Computer Users Society, and probably will continue to be for a long time. Atarians are somewhat lucky in that there is a reasonably strong vendor market, good user groups, and wonderful emulation options. Still, ABACUS has been experiencing a seriously declining membership recently as people traded in their ST's for PC's. We talked about it, and decided that what even the PC people didn't want to lose was the "family" we had built up in the club. There are lots of PC user groups, but none with the character of ABACUS. (How many clubs have a Land Rover owner, a waffle collector, and a 76 year old newsletter editor?) So we changed a bit to meet the new focus of the club members. We now have a "PC SIG" and demo PC software and hardware at the meetings, along with ST stuff. We feature general interest (computer) articles in the newsletter (such as my never-ending part 2<x> of my 3 part series on building web pages) as well as humour and general commentary. We continue to support the ST/Falcon folks as we expand to service the new interests of members. This lets members move on to newer things (graphical web browsers (yes, we know about STiK/CAB, but it's not netscape), CD-ROM's, etc.) while still keeping the ST alive. But, we've not done much about getting new members (either PC or ST). Your message has gotten me thinking, though. Every now and then I get a call >from someone who's got an ST for sale, and I have to tell them there's just not much market for them here. Perhaps we could set something up to get those machines into the hands of someone who could use them and is otherwise unable to afford them. (Goodness knows we've got enough kids with no $ around here!) The biggest hurdle facing the general public in putting older computers to work is the lack of support. (P.S., Cliff Stoll is an idiot sometimes.) They can buy a PC at Circuit City and half their neighbors will be able to set it up for them or answer questions. (Etc.) Not so with machines not quite so mainstream. But if user groups made the effort to become known and to support these computers, they could do a lot of good. Maybe even working with teachers or youth programs to make the computers available, and the kids *WILL* use them. I've seen it happen and I know it makes a difference. (My living room is loaded with older Macs -- until school starts again.) Anyway, sorry to blather on so long, but I think that "obsolete" computers are still useable, valuable, and beneficial. So lets talk about turning people on to them! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 10:36 PM 7/3/97 -0700, you wrote: >people to follow suit. Most people would rather use the latest and greatest. A lot of people would rather use the latest and greatest, but a lot more can only afford a pinto. >Not likely. There's no money in it. Why spend all your time and energy >writing non-saleable TI apps when you can be writing million dollar >peecee games? But there are already TI (or other) apps out there that make the TI a very useable machine. From the user side of things, those million dollar peecee games still cost $39.95, as much as a complete TI and software sometimes. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

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Building User Communities (clipped)

by idavis＠comland.com

At 10:54 AM 7/4/97 -0700, Uncle Roger wrote: >But, we've not done much about getting new members (either PC or ST). Your >message has gotten me thinking, though. Every now and then I get a call >from someone who's got an ST for sale, and I have to tell them there's just >not much market for them here. Perhaps we could set something up to get >those machines into the hands of someone who could use them and is otherwise >unable to afford them. (Goodness knows we've got enough kids with no $ >around here!) > Due to an accident(broken arm) with my then 5 week old daughter, about a month ago, I spent two days in the local childrens hospital. She is fine now, but at the time, my two sons ages 6 and 3 were bored to tears. On my way back to the room, I noticed a room with an old apple, and some other non computer items. I asked a nurse, and she mentioned that they would love to have some more computers for the kids to use. There were kids in there that were really sick, and I'm sure that there are times where they are bored to tears as well. My point to this whole rant, is that old "obsolete" computers with some fun software would make some happy kids who are in a really bad situation. Any spare computers I run across will be making the trip to the local childrens hospital. I would encourage anyone else who gets calls and doesn't know what to do with these extras to check out their local scene. Who knows, these kids might be able to turn out some really good software. Isaac Davis | Don't throw away that old computer, check out the idavis(a)comland.com | Classic Computer Rescue List indavis(a)juno.com | http://www.comland.com/~idavis/classic/classic.html

28 years, 9 months

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Laser 50 computer

by coslor＠pscosf.peru.edu

I posted a message a day or two ago, and I wanted to thank Sam Ismail for responding. I am wondering if anyone else might have one of these Laser 50 computers available (Sam wasn't able to part with any :-( ?? Some more information on this computer. It was manufactured by V-Tech (Video technology Ltd.) in the mid 1980s. It was a small, white, lap-top size computer. It had a single line LCD display and was marketed as a childrens education or beginner's computer. You could expand this 1.5k system by buying cassette recorder, two different printers, and a memory expansion cartridge. OH, yes... you could save up to 9 different programs internally on the computer. Now I also remember it ran on batteries though you could hook up a DC converter to plug into the wall. Had a full-feature BASIC programming language built in, including sound commands... although it didn't have any graphics capabilities (that I know of) it was a fun little computer. Anyway, what I am asking is if anyone out there has one of these or knows where I might be able to find one.... PLEASE let me know. I used to have one (lost it YEARS ago) and I would like my children to be able to use it a bit... plus it's kind of a piece of my computing history that I would like to bring back to my collection! Thanks a lot, and I hope someone has an inkling obout this machine. P.S. This isn't an Apple or IBM close. Best Wishes, CORD COSLOR //*=====================================================================++ || Cord G. Coslor P.O. Box 308 - 1300 3rd St. Apt "M1" -- Peru, NE || || (402) 872- 3272 coslor(a)bobcat.peru.edu 68421-0308 || || Classic computer software and hardware collector || || Autograph collector || ++=====================================================================*//

28 years, 9 months

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Building User Communities (long)

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

> I am facing a similar situation in the Atari community. I have to admit The HP calculator community (just about the only main-ish-stream one that I am involved with) has much the same problem. People tend not to join user groups, alas, any more. They expect to buy pre-packaged solutions, and if they don't work they expect the manufacturer to fix it. The idea of experimenting, of going a little further, seems to have died out. [...] > had built up in the club. There are lots of PC user groups, but none with > the character of ABACUS. (How many clubs have a Land Rover owner, a waffle > collector, and a 76 year old newsletter editor?) Why on earth do you need to edit a 76 year old newsletter? What's it stored on - Wheatstone Telegraph Tape? (Sorry, couldn't resist). And I guess the answer to your question is 'About as many as calculator clubs with a PERQ fanatic and a classic car enthusiast as members, and a Polish chairman' :-) > But, we've not done much about getting new members (either PC or ST). Your > message has gotten me thinking, though. Every now and then I get a call > from someone who's got an ST for sale, and I have to tell them there's just > not much market for them here. Perhaps we could set something up to get > those machines into the hands of someone who could use them and is otherwise > unable to afford them. (Goodness knows we've got enough kids with no $ > around here!) An idea. Sell them the machines cheaply, and then allow them to attend your club meetings for (say) one year free of charge. Having been involved with many user clubs, I realise that the membership money does go to good use, and that it costs a lot of money to produce and print the newsletter. But a lot of people don't see it that way. It costs nothing extra to have a few extra people at meetings, and (a) they will get support for their new toy (thus keeping it running) and (b) may find how useful the club is and will thus join. > The biggest hurdle facing the general public in putting older computers to > work is the lack of support. (P.S., Cliff Stoll is an idiot sometimes.) Absolutely. And for that reason, expecting a new user to start on a classic computer is (IMHO) totally unrealistic. > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad -tony

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

[...] > As a broad collector it is difficult to use all of your machines. Just > collecting a wide range of machines sucks up huge amounts of time. Some > people are a little more focused and actually collect partly to use > the machines. I collect machines for a lot of different reasons : a) I want to use them (for whatever purpose). The PDP's, PERQ, and some of the CP/M machines come in here. They have interesting features, and are plain fun to program (elegant instruction set, nice bus for homebrew hardware, etc). b) I got them because they're historically important. I may not care for the Apple ][ hardware design, but it is an extremely important computer historically. I don't tend to use this class of machine too much. c) I got them because if I hadn't they'd have been lost for ever. Either "We're throwing out this <whatever>, do you want it" or buying a machine that would otherwise have gone as scrap metal. These machines get restored, and (often) then end up in group (a)! > Not everything everyone does is to make money. Some of us do things > because they are fun, help others, kill time, impress women (or men), etc. Quite a lot of people need something to occupy their mind in their spare time. Some people do crossword puzzles. I prefer to figure out how some strange machine really operates. It's probably about as useful :-) (NO FLAMES!). Seriously, while solving crossword puzzles must improve your vocabulary, battling through a schematic or ROM source does improve your computer and electronics knowledge - something that is useful to me. And it's fun :-) > --pec

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

[...] > I guess I should have started out with my ulterior motives. Aha... That makes a lot more sense, and I hope I can make some useful comments. > > For a computer to survive as anything more than a relic, it has to have > a user community. Now, I suppose I could use my TI for "typical home > computing tasks" with the software I already have whether there was > anyone else in the world using a TI or not. And I suppose I would, too. > But for other jobs I wanted done that my computer COULD do (even if > being a Web browser is NOT one of them), I would either have to program > it myself, or find someone else to do it. And if I did it myself, most > of the fun is sharing it with other TI users. And part of the fun of > having this old computer is that there are other people bucking the > trend along with me. In other words, we have a TI computer user > community, and that is a very hefty reason for sticking with the TI > computer. > > In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the > community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats > abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will > waste away to a few hardcores unless there is new life added, either in > exciting new "modern applications" or attracting new people to adopt a > simple machine that can perform "common everyday household computing > tasks" that they DON'T need a Pentium to do. I hate to say this here, but I would _not_ recomend a classic computer (any classic computer) as the only system for a non-computer-literate user. IMHO such a user will quickly become disapointed when they find that the things that _they_ can do with the machine are somewhat limited, and that nothing from the local computer store will be of any use to them. I can have advanced video on one of my older machines because I am prepared to write drivers, solder up interfaces, read technical manuals, patch existing programs, etc. OK, I enjoy it. But to suggest that a PERQ 2 driving an I2S image processor and a homebrew GPIB -SCSI interface would be a good machine for the average home user to view his photo-CDs on would be nothing short of insane. Yes, it _could_ be done, but for such a user, a normal, boring, PC-clone would be much more suitable. Even I don't use a classic machine (or at least, what _I_ consider classic) all the time. Earlier this week I needed to write some letters. I could have used a classic-PERQ and printed the results on a Versatec V80. I could have used the paper tape editor on my PDP8/e to punch a tape containing the correct postscript commands and then printed it to my laserprinter using a serial-interfaces paper tape reader. In fact I used something non-classic - a much hacked PC/AT running Linux. I used LaTeX to format the text, and then printed it on said (fairly modern) laserprinter. There are plenty of other things that would have been just as good, but that's the one I chose. The people who (IMHO) we should be trying to attract to classic computers -- and in fact the ones I've had some success in attracting -- are those who are already computer literate to some extent. People who already can write simple programs and want to understand exactly how a system operates. I think it's a lot easier to understand many classic computers (minis and micros) than modern PCs, and the educational value of such machines should not be overlooked. There are (IMHO) at least 4 different types of tasks that can be done with computers : 1) A standard application for which software (commercial, GPL'd, freeware, shareware, whatever) already exists. In which case you pick whatever machine the software runs on. If it runs on more than one system, you choose between them using whatever criteria matter _to you_ (hence me picking a classic computer for its better documentation over a modern PC since both can carry out the tasks I want to do) 2) An existing embedded system. Although it's possible (and sometimes common) to 'modernise', say, a control system based on a minicomputer, there are still a lot of PDP8's and PDP11's running machinery, etc. Provided the old machine works reliably and support/spares are available, it's fine to keep on using it. 3) A new 'embedded' system. Although my example of the I2C chip tester was, I agree, slightly contrived, I was simply pointing out that if you are making a single-purpose machine _for youself (so you can maintain it)_ there's no reason not to use a classic. There's probably no reason not to use something modern either. 4) Education. This includes 'writing programs for fun', understanding how computers (hardware and software) works, etc. This is IMHO the main use of classic computers to the average person these days, and the way we'll attract more people into the hobby. I've said before that you can learn more about processor operation by spending a couple of days with a minicomputer CPU, the schematics for it and a 'scope than by sitting through most lecture courses on the subject. And, I can fully understand the joy that comes from getting a computer to do something that is widely claimed to be 'impossible'. When the CoCo was current, it was normally claimed that you couldn't have PMODE 4 graphics and Semigraphics 4 blocks on the screen at once. I did it, and totally amazed the staff in the local Tandy store. Since it's easy to do most things on a fast PC (you don't really have to save every last cycle, etc), it's more of a challenge to do them on an old home micro. Again, we may be able to attract people because of that. It may be worth looking at how (say) classic car clubs keep their membership. They may well have similar problems - why would you drive (say) a pre-war car when you could have a modern one. Rationally it probably makes very little sense... > My previous remarks about mainframes, which were interpreted as saying > that they are not "home computers", were made from the point of view > (and perhaps in ignorance) that, while C64s, Atari 8-bitters, TIs, > CoCos, and other "home computers" that were sold FOR THAT PURPOSE in > K-Mart and other department stores DO (or at least did) have a user > community, sharing programs, encouraging other users, forming User > Groups, publishing Newsletters, etc., other machines (such as the > PDP class of mains, minis, etc. and maybe Altairs and S-100 bus > computers) do NOT have this aspect to their existence. I guess I I will have to disagree with you there. The larger machines that I am involved with have very active user comunities who offer a lot of help and support to newcomers. To give a couple of examples : PERQ : When I was trying to add a printer to my PERQ, I had a few questions. The result was that other owners dismantled their own machines, 'buzzed out' cables, e-mailed me wirelists, and talked me through the whole thing. That's not an isolated incident - a person who was having monitor problems got other owners to pull the covers off their monitors and measure voltages, etc. This is just about the only machine where this level of support still occurs over 10 years after the entire line was discontinued. PDP11. The user community here is split (IMHO) into the professional users who need to keep the machine running, and who can afford DEC diagnostics, replacement boards, etc, and the home hackers who debug everything with a logic probe and printset, rebuild modules and even repair dead fans. I am certainly in the latter category here. But again, questions get answered. People will dig out manuals for obscure hardware and look up pinouts and jumper settings. Newcomers will get answers to introductory questions. BTW, I'm not flaming the support that other user communities give. I'm sure it's excellent, but I've never experienced it, since I don't (in the main) use those machines. > do know about DECUS; don't know if something like that existed for > PDP-11 owners or not, or even if professionally-oriented thing like > DECUS would be applicable here. I certainly did not mean to imply that The UK chapter of DECUS is pretty useless for home hackers. I am told that other chapters are a lot better in this respect. > * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * -tony

28 years, 9 months

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IBM part numbers

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

In a message dated 97-07-03 05:38:55 EDT, you write: << Does anyone know of any listing or directory of IBM top level part numbers? Every so often I come across a whatzit from IBM that only has a little aluminum square with "IBM" and a four digit number. A listing would be very handy. >> I have access to all IBM FRU numbers, which will always tell you what you have; NNLNNNN where n=number and l=letter but that four digit number means nothing AFAIK. david

28 years, 9 months

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[Fwd: Re: Filling in the holes...]

by enrico＠Brighton-UK.com

-- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website <http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~e.tedeschi> ================================================================ visit Brighton: <http://www.brighton.co.uk/tourist/welcome.htm>

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by cerebral＠michianatoday.com

>Why spend all of your time and energy collecting old computers when you can >be writing million dollar peecee games. I know you can get some classic stuff for free, but unfortunatly, as with every hobby we love, it costs money. and here is an interesting idea- to beat microsnuff, write as many competeing programs that work BETTER than billy's ( not hard to do), and sell them. and with that cash, you can get more machines! <G> and remember, billy also writes MAC software, that for some reason are worse than you can get for IBM... so we support IBM and MAC, as well as your favorite classic, the more platforms supported, the better it is for everyone! :)

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by dlormand＠aztec.asu.edu

Somehow, a discussion I started of actually USING "home computers" (versus merely collecting them) degenerated into a fight about what a "home computer" is. And a sister discussion I attempted to start about putting "modern" applications on classic machines yielded discouraging words, too. I guess I should have started out with my ulterior motives. For a computer to survive as anything more than a relic, it has to have a user community. Now, I suppose I could use my TI for "typical home computing tasks" with the software I already have whether there was anyone else in the world using a TI or not. And I suppose I would, too. But for other jobs I wanted done that my computer COULD do (even if being a Web browser is NOT one of them), I would either have to program it myself, or find someone else to do it. And if I did it myself, most of the fun is sharing it with other TI users. And part of the fun of having this old computer is that there are other people bucking the trend along with me. In other words, we have a TI computer user community, and that is a very hefty reason for sticking with the TI computer. In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will waste away to a few hardcores unless there is new life added, either in exciting new "modern applications" or attracting new people to adopt a simple machine that can perform "common everyday household computing tasks" that they DON'T need a Pentium to do. Of course, while my main loyalties are to the TI-99/4A, I recognize all the other "home computers" suffer from the same conditions, and I was hoping to create a dialog for HOW to do this, particularly strategies to attract people to join the community, and to share technology of "modern applications" that one community may have successfully achieved and another could use. So what I was fishing for was the thoughts of those people who read this List and understand the dilemma. In a Wintel-dominated world, is it even FEASIBLE to try to attract other people to choose from the abundance of small computer systems, otherwise destined for the landfill or recyclers? My previous remarks about mainframes, which were interpreted as saying that they are not "home computers", were made from the point of view (and perhaps in ignorance) that, while C64s, Atari 8-bitters, TIs, CoCos, and other "home computers" that were sold FOR THAT PURPOSE in K-Mart and other department stores DO (or at least did) have a user community, sharing programs, encouraging other users, forming User Groups, publishing Newsletters, etc., other machines (such as the PDP class of mains, minis, etc. and maybe Altairs and S-100 bus computers) do NOT have this aspect to their existence. I guess I do know about DECUS; don't know if something like that existed for PDP-11 owners or not, or even if professionally-oriented thing like DECUS would be applicable here. I certainly did not mean to imply that these machines are not useful for "household computing jobs", and by no means did I intend that this mailing list is only for the classic "home computers" with user communities, or to exclude anyone else from participating. -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand(a)aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! *

28 years, 9 months

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CLASSICCMP digest 101

by ursa＠idir.net

*** On Wed, 2 Jul 1997 classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu wrote: CLASSICCMP Digest 101 *:Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 14:27:36 +0000 *:From: jpero(a)mail.cgo.wave.ca *:To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu *:Subject: Re: Strange Tandy 1000HX *:Message-ID: <199707011827.OAA28789(a)mail.cgocable.net> *:MIME-Version: 1.0 *:Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII *:Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT *: *:Jeff, *: *:> I don't see much point in this though since the HX's controller won't *:> handle the 1.44 meg drive anyway. Plus, it'd be easy enough to add a floppy *:> drive to it, but supposedly neither knock-out plate has been punched out *:> behind either of the drive bays! This is what prompted my original post. *:Why not check out the external 5.25" internals? Point is, can use *:those easier to obtain 1.44mb drives and use them as 720k in old XT's *:in place of harder to find 720k drives. I did that just like that *:in one of those IBM XT using its original controller and a brand new *:20 bux 1.44 in PC that allowed me to fire it up with my 720k Dos 5.0 *:and install it to hd also allows user to interchange data with newer *:pcs easily. 360k was 40 tracks by 9 sectors, 720k used 80 tracks but *:the older controller controlled this drives no problem therefore *:any newer 1.44 will work as a 720k duty. In fact, 1.44 and 720k *:drives only differs in minor ways: higher frequency heads, extra *:sensor put in to support the 18 sectors. *: *:BIG snap! *: *:> Actually, it's an 8088 running at like 7.16mhz I *:> believe. One needs the *:> PLUS Memory board to add the memory above 256k, the DMA functions, and the two *:> additional PLUS connectors for the additional cards. That's a neat idea about *:> the SCSI though...heck, it'd be a cinch fitting one of the newer drives into *:> one of the 1" x 3-1/2" drive bays. The only problem would be power to the *:> drive, since as you've already mentioned, Tandy likes to send the power *:> through the ribbon cable. *:Thanks for correction and oddball mHz? Most clones uses 8mHz. *:If you could look in external drive, it might have adapter wirings *:that will allow you to make new cables adapters for that "1.44" as *:720k drives to put in your HX machine. *:--- *: *:Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 21:23:38 -0700 (PDT) *:From: Bill Whitson <bill(a)booster.bothell.washington.edu> *:To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu *:Subject: FAQ Bonanza *:Message-ID: <Pine.ULT.3.91a.970701212249.14727D-100000(a)booster.bothell.washington.edu> *:Mime-Version: 1.0 *:Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII *: *:============================================================================= *: DO NOT DISPOSE OF THIS PART OF THE FAQ. THIS IS THE PART THAT EXPLAINS HOW *: YOU CAN SUBSCRIBE AND UNSUBSCRIBE. IT WILL TAKE ME MORE TIME TO DO THESE *: THINGS FOR YOU THAN IT WILL TAKE FOR YOU TO DO THEM YOURSELF *:============================================================================= *:ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List *:Part 1 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy *:Mail/Internet Basics FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.2 *:Last Update: 7/01/97 *:----------------------------------------------------------------------------- *:This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available *:answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is *:Maintained by Bill Whitson <bill(a)booster.u.washington.edu>. The infor- *:mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, *:in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- *:ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible *:and often failed ;). *: *:This FAQ is Part 1 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented *:deals with the use of mailing lists and internet-specific tools. *: *:If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please *:contact me at the address above. *: *:A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://weber.u. *:washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27 in the *:directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as classiccmp.faq. *:---------------------------------------------------------------------------- *:Updates: New Sections: 2.1, 3.1 *:----------------------------------------------------------------------------- *:1. Mailing Lists *:---------------- *:1.1 Mailing List Basics *:1.2 How to Talk to the Robot *: How to set to Digest *: How to Subscribe *: How to Unsubscribe *: *:2. FTP *:------ *:2.1 FTP Basics *: *:3. World Wide Web *:----------------- *:3.1 WWW Basics *: *:============================================================================= *:1.1 Mailing List Basics *: *:A mailing list is a simple device which takes an e-mail and redistributes it *:to a group of people. People can add and remove themselves from the *:distribution list by Subscribing and Unsubscribing. When you send a message *:to the list, it is first examined by the robot for key words that tell it *:to process an automatic funtion (like help, subscribe, unsubscribe, etc). *:If the message does not contain a keyword it is sent to the distribution *:list. *: *:1.2 How to Talk to the Robot *: *:There are a few List Processor commands that you might want to use. To *:send a command to the list processor, write a message to *: listproc(a)u.washington.edu *:(Do NOT send the message to classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu). In the body of *:the message (not the subject line, that is) write one of the following *:commands, then send the message. *: *:SET CLASSICCMP MAIL ACK *: *: Tells the robot to send you a copy of messages you *: write to the list. This is the default. *: *:SET CLASSICCMP MAIL NOACK *: *: Tells the robot NOT to send you a copy of messages *: you write to the list. I don't recommend this. *: *:SET CLASSICCMP MAIL DIGEST *: *: Tells the robot to send you a digest of messages *: rather than each as it is posted. With this option *: you will get a weekly bundle of messages and keep *: a nice, tidy in-box. *: *:SUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address *: *: Subscribes you to the list. *: *:UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Your.Address *: *: Removes you from the list. *: *:[][][][][][][][][][] *: *:2.1 FTP Basics *: *:FTP is a protocol by which files can be transferred over the internet. *:You can use FTP to connect to a remote site and retrieve files. The *:commands you use with FTP depend on the software you use. In general *:you must make sure that you are in BINARY mode before transferring a *:program file or compressed files. The process of downloading a file *:is usually termed GET and the process of uploading a file is usually *:termed PUT. *: *:Your FTP program will require an address to connect to. For the *:ClassicCmp site that address is 140.142.225.27. *: *:You then may be asked to log in (unless your program assumes an *:anonymous login). When asked for a name, use anonymous. When asked *:for a password enter your internet e-mail address. *: *:[][][][][][][][][][] *: *:3.1 WWW Basics *: *:The only complicated thing with the WWW is knowing what bells *:and whistles your web browser supports. You don't really need to *:know much other than the address for ClassicCmp. The web site is *:all text which means just about any web browser from the oldest *:Lynx to the newest Netscape or Microsoft browser should support it. *: *:The ClassicCmp site is http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html. *:--- *:Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 00:36:55 -0500 *:From: Allen Underdown <wbrco(a)valuenet.net> *:To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu *:Subject: Re: Flex for 6809/6800 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *:Message-ID: <33B9E8F7.7C5A(a)valuenet.net> *:MIME-Version: 1.0 *:Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii *:Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *: *:Benedict Chong wrote: *:> Does anyone know if one can still get Flex for the 6809 or 6800? *:> There're people archiving and using CP/M stuff but it seems a waste to *:> let a very simple and neat OS like Flex go the way of the dinosaur. *:> *:> Ben *: *:Don't worry, I have several copys... *:-- *:| Allen Underdown - wbrco(a)valuenet.net | *:| Amateur Radio Operator - N0GOM, computer geek, | *:| homebrewer and outdoor enthusiast! | *:| http://lakers.cybercon.com/wurmborn | *: *:---

28 years, 9 months

3
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1980s Laser 50 computer???

by coslor＠pscosf.peru.edu

Greetings: I am wondering if any of you out there could help me out. I am looking to acquire an old educational computer that I had years ago called the Laser 50 personal computer. What it was is an old educational computer (for kids basically) produced by V-Tech, or Video Technologies, Ltd. around the mid 1980s. This machine was the size of a regular laptop computer and allowed small BASIC programs to be saved internally, and also had built in educational software, calculator, etc. The manual I still have for it says an additional cassette recorder could be purchased to save programs on, as well as printers, and a 16k expansion unit. Please let me know if you might have any information on this computer.... I would really like to find one for my kids. I am also looking to find the address for the manufacturer. I know V Tech still makes computer-like educational machines for youngsters today. I would appreciate your help. Thanks in advance, CORD COSLOR PO Box 308 Peru, NE 68421-0308 (402) 872- 3272 coslor(a)bobcat.peru.edu

28 years, 9 months

1
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Archive

by bw＠booster.bothell.washington.edu

Hi all. OK - here's the scoop so far on the Archival of classic computer stuff. Please give your input so that we can get the standards settled. The UW has graciously given me permission to attach a personal server to the network full time for ClassicCmp, so the underwork for the project is pretty well taken care of. I have a system that I'm working on setting up for the job - it will be a 486/66 with 32 MB of RAM and 3 GB of disk space. I am currently planning to set it up with linux. As you all know I am terribly slow about getting things done so it will probably be a couple weeks before it goes online. In the meantime we will continue to use the current FTP site which has plenty of space available. The particulars for how things will be stored are listed below for your review. Remember that the primary purpose of the archive is to store these items so that _someone_ can access them and make them available. It's probably not possible to always find a format that everyone can use, but if the data is here you can be pretty sure that you will be able to get it one way or another. System Software System software will be stored in a variety of formats. The preferred format will be disk images for those machines for which the means to create such an image has been developed. Examples are the Apple II/III (.dsk, .do, .po files) and C64 (.dsk files). The alternate format will be disk images created with a Central Point Option Board [1] which will read almost any 5.25" or 3.5" diskette. Those with such a board will be able to simply download and use the images. Those without will need to arrange to get a copy through regular mail. It's not a perfect solution but I can't come up with anything better. This will not cover 8" disks and I don't know how to deal with them as yet. General Software Non-booting software will be stored in the preferred compressed archival format for each machine (GZip where available). Firmware (ROMS, PROMS, PALS(?), etc...) I still don't know what a standard format for this should be. Anything which can be dumped to a file I'm willing to go with. My (limited) gizmo calls the format that it dumps to my PC "RAW". I assume that this is just the contents bit-for-bit. If anyone can read/write in raw format I'd recommend going with that. Documentation/Books/Magazines Text: Text should be presented in plain text, RTF, or PostScript. I will convernt submis- sions to conform to all three formats. Line Drawings: Should be formatted in either TIFF or PostScript format. Images: Should be formatted as either JPEG or PNG (Portable Network Graphic). I will convert PNG to JPEG on submission. Tag Files Each item will require a tag file to cover it's identification. This file is currently DS-form.txt located in the docs directory on the FTP site. It is probably not yet specific enough on the technical details - I will need recommendations on what to add. It does cover all the legal issues I wanted to address. Retrieving Files These files will be made available by FTP. Most will be easily downloadable by anyone. Some (Firmware, System Software) will be more difficult and will require physical assistance. I will generally be willing to create and mail disks for those who need them and can provide the media. I am poorly equipped to take care of firmware. Those without the neccesary gizmos will need to rely on the kindness of the group. [1] The Central Point Option Board is a device for an ISA bus PC that will read almost any standard floppy. They are still fairly commonly available for $20 or so. Bill Whitson

28 years, 9 months

5
7
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Archiving

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

I have a couple for sale/trade, but I'm afraid my valuation would be somewhat higher than that :( I'd buy several more for $20 apiece if they could be found. If you want to spend a lot of hours sifting through vendors' junk-board boxes, you can find one without software or cable for maybe $1-5, and get the software off the 'net, but I price mine in original box with software & cable at more like $50 or trade. I'd trade one for a properly constructed/tested 34-50pin CompatiCard-to-8"-drive cable, OR a CompatiCard IV to replace my CC II. Kai > ---------- > From: Richard A. Cini, Jr. > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 1997 8:09 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Archiving > > >>[1] The Central Point Option Board is a > device for an ISA bus PC that will read > almost any standard floppy. They are still > fairly commonly available for $20 or so.>> > > I remember having one of these many years ago, but I can't find it > anymore. > You mention that they are commonly available, but where do you > recommend that > I start looking?? > > ------------------------------------------------- > Rich Cini/WUGNET > - ClubWin Charter Member (6) > - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking >

28 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

Crappadore 64

by dastar＠crl.com

I have to get this off my chest. Commodore 64s have to be the god damn shittiest made computers ever. I had to test these 1571 drives that I sold someone and brought out 2 C64s I have in my garage and 2 power supplies because I know how notorious each part is for not working. I plug each in and niether work. I try the other p/s...same thing. I get ANOTHER p/s...both dead. I get yet ANOTHER power supply and 3 more C64 consoles I have. Of those 3, 2 worked! Is this a shittily engineered system or what? What bad weed were these idiots who designed this smoking? I've never had such bad luck with any other system. Out of all the systems I've ever acquired, the commodores and their stupid prone-to-burning-out power supplies have been the most likely to not work. I've gotten systems out of the rain that have been sitting in the elements for probably YEARS that have worked. But a C64? Hell no! Piece of crap! There must be some well-known fix for these idiotic things. I turn them on and get just a pure black screen. This is what happened to the first C64 I ever got from a friend 9 years ago. It just up and died on me all of a sudden one time when I was using it. Screen went black. There's got to be an easy way to fix these stupid things. Either that or there must be a well known joke passed around in commodore circles about how unreliable these junk heaps are. What a depressing hunk of crap. Aye. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass

28 years, 9 months

4
5
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'Home' computer: Definition

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> In fact, the TI community is shrinking, and as the members of the > community observe it shrinking, some are inclined to bail out ("rats > abandoning a sinking ship"). Given that trend, the community will The attrition may be due to limited software or simple the machines failing. Likely the users have found other platforms (older cheaper PCs) or even new ones. Also it may be more difficult to use older machine >from the point and click mindset. Don't forget peer pressure "Your still using that?". > Of course, while my main loyalties are to the TI-99/4A, I recognize al > the other "home computers" suffer from the same conditions, and I was > hoping to create a dialog for HOW to do this, particularly strategies t True but some suffer deeper. The more useful and more common software is the more likely it is to be still in use. Hence the commodors/trs80s/cpm machines. A quick survey of archive sites will show the common machines based on software available. > So what I was fishing for was the thoughts of those people who read thi > List and understand the dilemma. In a Wintel-dominated world, is it > even FEASIBLE to try to attract other people to choose from the > abundance of small computer systems, otherwise destined for the landfil > or recyclers? Depends on their needs and how important compatability is to them. I have a PC becuase I have to not because it's all that great. Some or a lot of the world is PC based and I have to be compatable with them. > My previous remarks about mainframes, which were interpreted as saying > that they are not "home computers", were made from the point of view > (and perhaps in ignorance) that, while C64s, Atari 8-bitters, TIs, > CoCos, and other "home computers" that were sold FOR THAT PURPOSE in > K-Mart and other department stores DO (or at least did) have a user > community, sharing programs, encouraging other users, forming User > Groups, publishing Newsletters, etc., > other machines (such as the > PDP class of mains, minis, etc. and maybe Altairs and S-100 bus > computers) do NOT have this aspect to their existence. Excuse me? not so! Many of the s100 systems had very active user groupd though they were more often segmented by OS rather than bus. > I guess I > do know about DECUS; don't know if something like that existed for > PDP-11 owners or not, or even if professionally-oriented thing like > DECUS would be applicable here. I certainly did not mean to imply tha There are several groups for the PDP-8/10/11/vax other than decus but decus goes back to day one. What you forget is the intersil 6100 chip (pdp8! and the desktop version the DECMATE) and closed PDP-11 systems (PDT11/150 and PRO350) were sold in the same space and had very seperate communities outside of DECUS. It's not as cut and dried as your words picture it. Personal computing as adjunct to commercial computing was and is largely driven by cost, capability and software. Many amazingly poor machines did well not for the hardware but an abundance of software. Food for thought, The ti9900 chip is nearly as old as the 8080 and it was a 16bit design based on the TI990 minicomputer. Wouldn't you want that machine? FYI it was not that large (comparable to a PDP-11/20.). Yet the ti99/4a was year later...why? No support from TI, they figured you get the mini and devlope applications using the chip so support was limited. FYI, the ti9900 chip is a fairly high performance CCPU compared to the 8080! Allison

28 years, 9 months

1
0
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Extra stuff to go

by jeffh＠unix.aardvarkol.com

I have the following extra stuff taking up space if anyone would like any of it: 1) TRS-80 Model 4, desktop model with dual floppies and 64k RAM. works perfectly, and will include an original copy of TRSDOS 6. Asking $20 + shipping. 2) Sears SR2000 printer...dual interface IBM/Commodore 8bit. Seems to work fine though needs a new ribbon. $4 + shipping 3) Commodore Plus4/C-16 joysticks..a pair with the 8pin minidin connector. loose. unable to test. $5 + shipping 4) Atari SC1224 monitor...color monitor for the Atari-ST's. works great, though has some magic marker on the case. asking $10 + shipping I'm selling off these to make room for additional aquisitions, so if interested, please email me! Thanks. Jeff jeffh(a)unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

28 years, 9 months

2
1
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Strange Tandy 1000HX

by marcw＠lightside.com

> I had a 1000HX (still have, I think -- it's out on loan) with internal 5 > 1/4, external 3 1/2 > If it has a 5 1/4" internal (on the right side?) then it is a 1000EX and not HX. They're similar but I forgot what the main difference was other than the drives. I don't think the EX has a setup program like the HX's SETUPHX is one. Wonder if it's possible to change settings on the EX like the HX (EEPROM). Marc

28 years, 9 months

2
1
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Archiving

by rcini＠msn.com

>>[1] The Central Point Option Board is a device for an ISA bus PC that will read almost any standard floppy. They are still fairly commonly available for $20 or so.>> I remember having one of these many years ago, but I can't find it anymore. You mention that they are commonly available, but where do you recommend that I start looking?? ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking

28 years, 9 months

1
0
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'Home' computer: Definition

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> > >Speaking of names, the best (most descriptive) program name I ever r > > >across was the CP/M debugger, DDT. > > > > Indeed! In fact, IIRC, it was advertised as, "DDT - kills bugs dead" > > > > Bob > > I remember using a debugger called DDT under TOPS-10 on the DEC PDP-10 > before there was anything called CP/M. I've used DDT on PDP-8s (OS8), PDP-10s and 11s before CP/m existed. However, Kildall was largely inspired by DEC OSs, hence DDT, PIP, dir, REName, TYPE to name a few. Allison

28 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

'Home' computer: Definition

by bwit＠pobox.com

>Speaking of names, the best (most descriptive) program name I ever ran >across was the CP/M debugger, DDT. Indeed! In fact, IIRC, it was advertised as, "DDT - kills bugs dead". Bob

28 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

Sony CP/M machine?

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 10:45 AM 7/3/97 +1000, you wrote: >Take one "Classic" Mac case. Make another slot for a second floppy drive. >Insert 64K of memory and an 8085 (could be a Z80). Sell lots (or, as I I think I might have a picture of one around somewhere (probably on my girlfriend's Mac); if I can find it, I'll put it somewhere accessible if anyone's interested in seeing it. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Crappadore 64

by cerebral＠michianatoday.com

At 10:31 PM 7/2/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I have to get this off my chest. > >Commodore 64s have to be the god damn shittiest made computers ever. I >had to test these 1571 drives that I sold someone and brought out 2 C64s >I have in my garage and 2 power supplies because I know how notorious >each part is for not working. I plug each in and niether work. I try >the other p/s...same thing. I get ANOTHER p/s...both dead. I get yet >ANOTHER power supply and 3 more C64 consoles I have. Of those 3, 2 >worked! Is this a shittily engineered system or what? What bad weed >were these idiots who designed this smoking? I've never had such bad >luck with any other system. Out of all the systems I've ever acquired, >the commodores and their stupid prone-to-burning-out power supplies have >been the most likely to not work. I've gotten systems out of the rain >that have been sitting in the elements for probably YEARS that have >worked. But a C64? Hell no! Piece of crap! > >There must be some well-known fix for these idiotic things. I turn them >on and get just a pure black screen. This is what happened to the first >C64 I ever got from a friend 9 years ago. It just up and died on me all >of a sudden one time when I was using it. Screen went black. There's >got to be an easy way to fix these stupid things. Either that or there >must be a well known joke passed around in commodore circles about how >unreliable these junk heaps are. What a depressing hunk of crap. > >Aye. > >Sam >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass As you sig says, you are a JAckass, but calling you a jackass is not fair to the jackass. seeing that this is flamebait, I have to say that I NEVER had a Commodore 64 that did not work. Now if you want to talk about shitty commodore stuff, that would have to be the C=128 keyboard. the electronics in it are fine, but the keyboard is crap. all in all however, Commodores still rule over Apples anyday, sure the wonderful apple disk was faster, but a fast disk alone dont make a machine. That is just like having a 454 supercharged big block in your garage, with nothing to put it in.....

28 years, 9 months

1
0
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northstar advantage/cordata

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

i posted a note locally about ti99 goodies and someone emailed me back with an offer for a northstar advantage and a cordata. i need info on what these are and if they're worth getting. david

28 years, 9 months

3
2
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Panasonic Handhelds

by dastar＠crl.com

I am posting this again to hopefully get more response. Right now we are collectively committed for 46 units of the Panasonic Hand Held Computers. I am hoping to at least double this figure. The more we want, the merrier for all. I'll include a little more information about these units. To those of you who have already submitted requests or have read this message, you can skip the rest of the message after my signature as you've seen it before. These units are a Panasonic HandHeld Computer circa 1984. They have a FORTH-like language in ROM called "SNAP". They have a built-in thermal printer. They have 8K of RAM running off a 6502 CPU. The custom-designed memory expansion tray which each comes with allows up to 10 additional 8K EPROMS along with the 3 that the HHC itself allows for. It has a 26 character by 1 line display, and its dimensions are 9" by 3.5". It has a full "qwerty" keyboard. Now please read the rest of the message for instructions on how to reserve 1, 2, 3 or more of these babies for yourself at a maximum price of $10 each. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:52:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)crl4.crl.com> To: Classic Computer Discussion <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Subject: RE: Panasonic Handhelds PANASONIC HANDHELD UPDATE: This is the latest message from Mike who has the hundreds of Panasonic HandHeld computers. In case its not obvious what's going on, I put in an offer of $10 each for 50, $9 each for 100, $8 each for 150, etc. I don't have $2000 lying around with which to buy them all up. I have a plan, but first read what Mike had to say: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:39:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1(a)aol.com To: dastar(a)crl.com Subject: Re: EPROM Burners re: Classic Computers Dear Sam, I believe the total number of HHC's available will be about 400.Based on your offer I assume that for 150 of the units you would be willing to pay at the rate of $10 for the first 50,$9 for the next 50, $8 for the next 50 and $7 for the next 50 whcih would come to $1700 for 200 units.Would you be interested in 300 units for $2000 even?To make the offer even sweeter I'll throw in the memory expander trays with each unit.The cost for each tray alone was well over $100 when they were purchased,as well as a quantity of the MCM 68674 8K eprom chips that the programs were written on. As always Best Regards, Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ END FORWARD So here's my plan...anyone and everyone who is interested, reply to ME (do not reply to classiccmp! People will hate you and want to drown your pets!) telling me how many you want. Do this soon. I will save all of your e-mails and then at the end of say, 10 days I will tally up the total and make Mike an offer. So again... Reply to ME only (dastar(a)crl.com) Tell me HOW MANY of the Panasonic HandHeld Computers you want. Do it SOON. You have about 10 days. Price will be NO MORE THAN $10 EACH. I'll get back to everyone in 10 days or so. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass

28 years, 9 months

1
0
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Video Brain

by ccm＠sentex.net

Yep, you're absolutely correct. I messed up, again. Sorry. Thanks for the gentle correction. Kevin >> From: ccm(a)sentex.net (COMMPUTERSEUM/Kevin Stumpf) >> This is a case of two computers and one name. >> >> The Video Brain is also a desktop, CP/M microcomputer built in the earl >> 1980's. It physically resembles an Applied Digital Data Systems ADDS 7 >> intelligent terminal with dual 5 1/4" floppies mounted beside the monit >> >> Now you must investigate further and tell us which one it is. > >Sure you not confusing the Superbrain, a CP/M machine with the Video >Brain a F8 based game? > >Allison > > >

28 years, 9 months

1
0
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Old Tandys

by manney＠nwohio.com

Tandy has an 800 number -- (800) THE-SHACK (You musk key in the final "K"...it won't work without it). The technicians are knowledgeable about the older machines and *very* helpful. btw, I have some trash-80 software (if bitrot hasn't got to it)

28 years, 9 months

2
1
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Sony CP/M machine?

by dastar＠crl.com

I mentioned previously a discussion I had over dinner of some classic systems. One of the systems mentioned was a Sony CP/M machine from the very early 80s. Anyone know anything about this system? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> > The origianl statement stands. I can't think of a single computer syste > by me or not) that can't be used for useful work in 1997. The fact that > old has nothing to do with it. Tony, Everyone, I'd be loath to point out that one of the more common houseflys in computer terms is the PDP-8. While not large or fast they are common still running CNC machines that were built over 20 years ago. I come >from a time when home computerists lusted for one of these. Granted the 80xx was still TBD! ;-) Allison

28 years, 9 months

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Video Brain

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> From: ccm(a)sentex.net (COMMPUTERSEUM/Kevin Stumpf) > This is a case of two computers and one name. > > The Video Brain is also a desktop, CP/M microcomputer built in the earl > 1980's. It physically resembles an Applied Digital Data Systems ADDS 7 > intelligent terminal with dual 5 1/4" floppies mounted beside the monit > > Now you must investigate further and tell us which one it is. Sure you not confusing the Superbrain, a CP/M machine with the Video Brain a F8 based game? Allison

28 years, 9 months

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Today's Wall Street Journal Article

by rcini＠msn.com

All: For your enjoyment... ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking Why We Can't Part With Those Vintage PCs By G. PASCAL ZACHARY Staff Reporter of TIIE WALL STREET JOURNAI. When it comes to her husband's habit of clut-tering their Redmond, Wash., home with broken and outmoded computer gear, Pam Vavra knows where to draw the line. The kitchen. Last month, Brad, her husband, stuffed a Mason jar with dozens of old memory chips and put it on a shelf next to similar jars that held fruit. Brad thought "it looked cool," he says, but she disagreed. "The kitchen is mine," she told him. "Your chips don't go with the decor." It would be an exaggeration to say that in kitchens all over America, people are filling their shelves with old computer gear. But as computers become nearly as common as toasters, the space devoted to computer junk expands, too. To be sure, some people have always had a hard time throwing things away. Didn't everyone's grandmother save string? Like the savers of old, today's digital packrats can't help themselves. "The reason you can't throw it away like an old shoe box is pre-cisely because you've established a prior relationship with it," says Brigitte Jordan, an anthropologist at Xerox Corp. who studies the relationship between people and things. As computers become more sophisticated, Ms. Jordan says, human interactions with them become more in-tense, intimate and memorable, making it harder for owners to part with their gear. For instance, Jim Kelnhofer, a programmer at Microsoft Corp., keeps his first computer in plain view in his bedroom. "I turn it on once or twice a year," he says. Hanging onto old computer stuff isn't just sentimen-tal, though. Some people paid so much for their outmoded machines that they can't bear to part with them for a song. And with computers changing so rapidly-obsoles-cence typically occurs in three years-many owners com-bat the disorientation of rapid change by keeping their old stuff nearby. "My theory is that these folks are so giddy with the pace of change that they keep this junk around as a trail of intellectual breadcrumbs, leading them back to their computing origins," says Paul Saffo, director of the Institute for the Future in Menlo Park, Calif. That's certainly true of Mr. Vavra, a software programmer who keeps the first computer he ever owned (a Franklin Ace) in his garage. A year ago, he donated to Microsoft's museum his Apple Lisa, a precursor to the Macintosh, but he can't part with an original Apple II, a computer on which he wrote some of his first programs in the 1970s. It is even more common for people to surround themselves with old gear at work. Alan Cooper, a computer consultant in Palo Alto, Calif., keeps a line of old chips on his desktop computer monitor and a few hundred computer punchcards -- not used since the 1970s -- in his desk drawer. "That's a lifetime supply now," says Mr. Cooper, who uses them as bookmarks. Mr. Cooper occasionally tosses out gear, but not easily. He is still sorry about his decision five years ago to give away an original Macintosh to a public school. Whenever he considers tossing out, say, the Hewlett-Packard calculator he bought in college 25 years ago, he thinks about how much he misses the Mac. "I don't want to make that mistake again," he says. While vintage computers provide psychological ballast against the shock of the new, there are sound economic reasons for retaining obsolete machines: Many are im-possible to sell or give away. In California alone, an esti-mated two million PCs are abandoned each year. Many sit in closets or warehouses or under desks. Others are sold at yard sales, left on the street, or cannibalized by recyclers for valuable metals. Most charities, for instance, have firm standards on which computers they will accept as donations. “We don’t want your junk,” says Helga Luce, a spokeswoman for Goodwill Industries. Even perfectly good computers often can't be given away. The Detwiler Foundation, which donates to schools computers rescued from oblivion, doesn't take machines that are powered by anything less than Intel's nine-year-old 386 chip. "We're not doing a school a favor by giving them a 286," says Diane Detwiler, the foundation's executive director, referring to Intel's 15-year-old microprocessor. Some charities have even tougher standards. Gifts in Kind, an Alexandria, Va., nonprofit that distributes donated computers, will accept only those machines whose parts, manuals and maintenance are readily available. The charity won't accept, for instance, the Macintosh Classic, a venerable computer that sold in the millions. Thwarted in their efforts to give away their most ancient machines, some computer owners try to make the best of a bad situation. Cliff Stoll, a computer-security expert in Oakland, Calif., came up with a novel answer to the question, "What do you do with a used computer?" Mr. Stoll, who is a commentator on the cable channel MSNBC and an author, has turned a one-piece Macintosh Plus into an aquarium, hollowing out the electronics and filling the case with water and fish. As if the aquarium weren't enough, Mr. Stoll turned an old IBM PC into a litter box for his cat. While the cat became enamored of the box, "I realized that really isn't a good second life for a computer," he says. For some fanatics, giving their computers decent storage space is more fitting. "My reasoning is really very simple," says Marc Weiser, a computer scientist at Xerox's Palo Alto, Calif., research lab. "Old computers are worthless to everybody else, so even if they have a dime of value to you its a dime you wouldn't have otherwise." Mr. Weiser keeps three old computers in his garage, including one he built in 1975. "Maybe I'll show it to my kids someday. You know, like an heirloom." Other digital packrats harbor similar delusions. Kimball Brown, a market researcher in San Jose, Calif., thinks his motley collection of modems, compact-disk drives, memory chips and entire computers could be worth something someday. Even if he's wrong, he insists, he can't lose. "I have a dream that someday I'll open a computer museum," he says. But there already are computer museums, and they are pretty choosy, too. Curators want collectible computers to be in pristine condition and perhaps bear some unique mark, such as a designer's signature. "What turns out to be valuable, you can't really know," says Gwen Bell, co-founder of the Computer Museum in Boston. But "if it's not shiny and polished and isn't part of a big story, it probably isn't worth keeping."

28 years, 9 months

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Exidy Sorcerer Info

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

Somebody (I forget who) was asking for information on the Exidy Sorcerer. I've found the manuals, and will give a little useful info below. Memory Map : 0-1FFF 8K RAM (standard) - 1F50-1F90 Monitor stack, 1F91-1FFF Monitor workspace. [Or 0-3FFF 16K RAM, 0-7FFF 32K RAM, with the monitor stuff at the top of that] C000-DFFF 8K ROM cartridge [Or D000-DFFF 4K ROM cartridge, A000-DFFF 16K ROM cartridge] E000-EFFF Monitor ROM F000-F07F Video Scratchpad F080-F7FF Video (Screen) RAM F800-FBFF Ascii PROMs FC00-FDFF Standard graphics FE00-FFFF User Graphics Monitor Commands : DU <a1> <a2> DUmp memory from <a1> to <a2> EN <a> ENter hex data to memory starting at <a>. Type / <cr> to get out of this command TE <a1> <a2> TEst RAM from <a1> to <a2>. TE <a1> <a2> C TEst RAM continously. MO <a1> <a2> <a3> MOve block <a1> - <a2> to address <a3> MO <a1> <a2> S <count> MOve <count> bytes from <a1> to <a2> SA <name> <a1> <a2> <unit> SAve block <a1> - <a2> onto cassette <unit> with file<name> FI <unit> List FIles on cassette <unit> LO <name> <unit> <address> LOad file<name> from cassette <unit> at address <address>. The last 2 arguments are optional LOG <name> <unit> <address> LOad and Go file<name> as above GO <a> GO at address (run program) PP <parameter> Run Program Pack (ROM cartridge). If no paramenter given, do a warm start, otherwise cold SE <a>=<b> SEt monitor parameters : S=XX display delay to XX T=X Tape rate (0=1200 baud, 1 = 300 baud) F=XX set file type. D8 == non-auto-execute. Bx = Basic programs X=XXXX set execution address in tape file header O=V set output to video =P Parallel output =L Centronics Printer =S Tape output =XXXX send to address I=K set input to keyboard =P Parallel input =S Tape input =XXXX read from address CR CReate Batch file on tape unit 1 LI LIst Batch file BA run BAtch file OV End (OVer) of batch file. Returns control to the keyboard Memory : There are 2 rows of DRAM chips on the main PCB. Supported configurations are ; 2 rows of 4K chips (8K total) Front row (only) 16K chips (16K) 2 rows of 16K chips (32K) There are 2 jumpers at the front edge of the board (column 11). The front jumper is fitted if there are 2 rows of RAMs in the system. The rear one is fitted for 16K rams, removed for 4K rams. Pinouts: Serial interface (RH 25 pin connector) 1 : Shield 1 2 RS232 out 3 RS232 in 4 Ground 5 Aux level output to cassette 1 6,7,8 Ground 9 +12V 10 N/C 11 RS232 in 12 Motor control #1 + 12 Motor control #2 + 14 Shield 2 15 Microphone level output to cassette 1 16 microphone #2 17 Ground 18 Aux 2 19 Ground 20 Earphone input from cassette #1 21 Ear 2 22 N/C 23 RS223 out 24 Motor Control #1 - 25 Motor Control #2 - Parallel interface (LH 25 pin connector) 1 Ground 2 Output data Accepted 3 Output data Available 4 Output D7 5 Output D6 6 Output D5 7 Output D4 8 Ground 9 Input Data Available 10 Input D0 11 Input D2 12 Input D4 13 Input D6 14 N/C 15 +5V 16 Output D0 17 Output D1 18 Output D2 19 Output D3 20 +5V 21 Input data accepted 22 Input D1 23 Input D3 24 Input D5 25 Input D7 System bus (50 pin edge connector) 1 Reset out 2 Int* 3 wait* 4 Data bus enable (into sorcerer) 5 Busrq* 6 NMI* 7 Buskack* 8 Data Bus Direction (into sorcerer) 9 ROM Enable* 10 Phi1 (clock?) 11 ROM PRE 12 Reset Ack 13 Phi2 (clock out) 14 Up8K 15 Mreq* 16 M1* 17 Rd* 18 iorq* 19 rfsh* 20 wr* 21 A8 22 halt* 23 A10 24 A9 25 A15 26 A11 27 A13 28 A14 29 A0 30 A12 31 A2 32 A1 33 A4 34 A3 35 A6 36 A5 37 D0 38 A7 39 D2 40 D1 41 D4 42 D3 43 D6 44 D5 45 Reset input 46 D7 47 N/C 48 I/O 49 Ground 50 Ground ROMpack slot 1 A7 2 A6 3 A5 4 A4 5 A3 6 A2 7 A1 8 A0 9 A9 10 A8 11 D0 12 D1 13 D2 14 D3 15 D4 16 D5 17 D6 18 D7 19 A11 20 A10 21 RomDIS 22 A14 23 ROMPRE 24 A12 25 A13 26 +12V 27 -5V 28 N/C 29 +5V 30 Gnd Centronics printer cable Sorcerer Printer Signal 1 19-30 Ground 2 10 Ack 4 1 Stb 5 8 D6 6 7 D5 7 6 D4 8 19-30 Ground 16 2 D0 17 3 D1 18 4 D2 19 5 D3 25 11 Busy 9 D7 (Unused - maybe tie to ground - ARD) Serial cable : This was a 'hydra' cable with a DB25 to fit the sorcerer, 8 jack/phone plugs for the cassette recorders and a DB25 serial connector. I'll try to give the wirelist Sorcerer Device RS232 port 2 DB25/2 (TxD) 7 DB25/7 (Ground) 3 DB25/3 (RxD) 8 DB25/8 (Ground) Tape 1 : (Mic, Aux, Ear 3.5mm (mini) phone plugs, Remote 2.5mm (submini) phone plug) 15 Mic plug tip 1 Mic plug sleeve 5 Aux plug tip 4 Aux plug sleeve 20 Ear plug tip 19 Ear plug sleeve 24 Remote plug tip 12 Remote plug sleeve The remote connections are swapped for some recorders Tape 2 (Notes as above) 16 Mic plug tip 14 Mic plug sleeve 18 Aux plug tip 17 Aux plug sleeve 21 Ear plug tip 6 Ear plug sleeve 25 Remote plug tip 13 Remote plug sleeve I seem to remeber that something was asked about the PSU. According to my manual, the PSU was mostly on the main board, and used 3 off 3-terminal regulators for the +5V, +12V and -5V lines. If these are present, then the external (to the PCB) part of the PSU is simply a mains transformer giving 16V C/T and (probably) 16V). But if you don't have these regulators, let me know, and I'll try to figure out what is going on. -tony

28 years, 9 months

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Early Computer History (RE: who's on first? )

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

> ---------- > From: Nick Challoner > On 1 Jul 97 at 22:45, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > I would be most interested in hearing peoples' views on where the > > > Bletchley Park computer (i can't remember its name) > > > > Colossus I ? > Yes! that was it. Thanks Enrico. > It was just called Colossus at the time (they ended up building 10 of them). They're rebuilding one at Bletchley Park. > Now back to the main question in my > post: where does this fit in to the timeline of early computers? > The following are arguable.... Colossus (1944) was probably the first electronic computer. ENIAC (1946) was probably the first general-purpose electronic computer, while Colossus was built strictly to break a German cipher. Manchester/Harvard Mark 1 (1948) was probably first electronic stored-program computer. (ENIAC, though built in '46, was made stored-program in 1948, complicating matters somewhat) EDSAC (1949) is sometimes called the first full-scale operational stored-program computer. UNIVAC 1 (1952) was probably the first commercial computer. I haven't been able to find any citations of the first all-solid-state computer. Kai

28 years, 9 months

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who's on first?

by zmerch＠northernway.net

Whilst in a self-induced trance, Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers happened to blather: >On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: >That was me. Yes, it might have been _possible_ to build a machine in >1930, but at that time nobody had made the connection between Babbage's >ideas and electronics. IIRC, it was John von Neuman who took that fatal >step, then published it. And then all Hell broke loose, and there is no >sign of the rift closing within our lifetimes. I _love_ it. With >respect to the old Chinese curse, we live in interesting times. And we >have done so since the Harvard Mark I. (Well, there _is_ that rumoured >German predecessor, but it was never advertised.) Uh, actually, try October 1939... with the ABC. That's the Atanasoff - Berry Computer, which is now recognized as the first functional electronic computer. I posted 2 or 3 URL's for more info on the web, if there's a searchable archive of this list, check there for my post. If not, I'll look it up in mine if I still have it. BTW, you're timeline is still a bit off... IIRC John von Neumann invented the stored-program concept, didn't he? It was Markus & someone who designed the first UNIVAC mostly with concepts hijacked from the ABC... methinks it was in 1972 or so when the U.S. Patent office yanked the patent away from them and gave it back to Atanasoff & Berry. Anywho, have fun, y'all! "Merch" -- Roger Merchberger | If at first you don't succeed, Programmer, NorthernWay | nuclear warhead disarmament should *not* zmerch(a)northernway.net | be your first career choice.

28 years, 9 months

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8088 ROM image (fwd)

by more＠camlaw.rutgers.edu

If anyone can help this guy out, please e-mail him (he does not subscribe AFAIK to the mailimg list.) Thanks, Les ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 18:57:12 -0700 From: michael neufeld <mneufeld(a)awinc.com> To: more(a)camlaw.Rutgers.EDU Subject: 8088 ROM image Hello, Would you happen to have the BIOS for an 8088 IBM PC, XT or compatible? I would like to build a DOS compatible single board computer, however I need a BIOS and/or information on it. Any help you could give me would be appreciated! Thanks, Michael Neufeld mneufeld(a)awinc.com

28 years, 9 months

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Tandy 100

by jrice＠texoma.net

Does anyone out there have a Tandy Model 100, that is non functioning? My LCD display died and RS Parts want $225.00 for a new one. Thanks, James

28 years, 9 months

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Sony CP/M machine?

by foxvideo＠mail.wincom.net

At 12:06 PM 7/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >On Wed, 2 Jul 1997, Ken Marshall wrote: > >> I was just given a Sony SMC-70 last weekend by a friend of my son's that is >> moving. The machine has 3.5" single-sided floppy disks, both black & white >> and RGB video outputs, an RS-232 interface, parallel interface, and a DB-25 >> connector labeled "external drives". It also has a "supercharger" unit > >I have an SMC-70 as well; unfortunately, I have neither an OS nor the >floppy drives for mine. The few pieces of information that I have found >about this machine are that it was (supposedly) the first mass-produced >computer to use 3.5 inch floppy disks and that it was used as a part of a >video editing controller that Sony produced in the early '80s. The >floppy disk claim does make some sense, since the 3.5 inch format was >developed by Sony. > >A few more interesting things about this machine: > >- The power supply is located in the rear portion of the case, which is >mounted on tracks and movable. Moving the power supply away from the main >portion of the case reveals a ribbon cable with several 50-pin socket >connectors. This ribbon cable terminates at the 50-pin Centronics >connector on the back of the unit. Does anyone have a description of this >bus? I'm assuming that there were options available that fit into this >area and extend the length of the unit, somewhat like the options that can >be connected to the IBM PC Convertible. > >- There is a switch on the side of the unit that selects the startup >device, which can be either ROM or disk. I'm assuming that the boot ROM >was an optional product. In any case, mine doesn't have a boot ROM. > >Does anyone know if the SMC-70 floppy drives are the same as (or >compatible with) any of the other drives that are made by Sony, such as >the 400k SSDD drives used in the Macintosh 128k/512k? > >If anyone is interested, I can snap a few pictures of the SMC-70 tonight, >put them on the Web, and post the URL. > >-- >Scott Ware s-ware(a)nwu.edu > The Sony part numbers listed for the manuals are as follows: SML7000Z Operating instruction binder. SML7001Z Sony basic introductory manual& basic user guide. SML7002Z Basic reference manual SML7003Z System monitor manual SMC70. SML7004Z Hardware manual, technical description, SMC70. I suggest not ordering them retail from Sony as they are listing at about $ 50.00 ea.in 1986 Cheers Charlie Fox

28 years, 9 months

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Sony CP/M machine?

by foxvideo＠mail.wincom.net

At 12:34 AM 7/2/97 -0700, you wrote: > >I mentioned previously a discussion I had over dinner of some classic >systems. One of the systems mentioned was a Sony CP/M machine from the >very early 80s. Anyone know anything about this system? > > >Sam >------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass > > Hi, Sam: In 1983 Sony Video Products Catalog listed a SMC70 microcomputer, and again in 1986 Japan Video Centre (Toronto) listed a SMC70G "Genlocker" which was supposed to make a good character generator for video production. I remember going to see one, but didn't bite because they wanted about six grand for it, and that is a bit much, even in Canada. Regards Charlie Fox

28 years, 9 months

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RT-11 and OS/8 floppy interleave algorithms?

by dbetz＠xlisper.mv.com

Does anyone know the RX01 floppy sector interleave algorithms for RT-11 and OS/8? Thanks in advance, David Betz -- David Betz dbetz(a)xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz(a)aol.com (603) 472-2389

28 years, 9 months

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yo

by dastar＠crl.com

I had a business meal tonight and after some discussion I found out that one of our guests is sort of into collecting old computers (basically he never got rid of any of the systems he's bought over time). One of the systems he mentioned he had was a Video Brain. Apparently this is a video game system. I *think* I vaguely remember hearing about this system. At any rate I'm curious about it and was wondering if anybody knew what it was as we both had too much tequila for him to describe and for me to comprehend it. I told him of my plans for the First Annual Vintage Computer Festival (which, by the way, is still on...I'm still in the planning phases) and he mentioned that he had close contacts with a show called The Computer Guys on the Discovery Channel and would arrange for me to meet with them to discuss possible coverage of the show. Very nice! Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass

28 years, 9 months

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CLASSICCMP digest 99

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

In message <3.0.1.32.19970701060900.00f809f0(a)mail.wizards.net> classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu writes: > >> I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms > >> indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. > > > > My PDP is a home computer. All it takes up is a table (I don't have a > > rack yet. It's coming...) Besides, my XT is bigger than the PDP at the > > moment (condidering keyboard, monitor, printer, and disks) At one time I had a PDP8/e and a PDP11/44 _on my desk_. They were thus desktop computers :-). The 11/44 is now elsewhere, since I now have the 8/e's peripherals on my desk....

28 years, 9 months

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Help with Apple Lisa 2

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Hi all, I just acquired a Lisa 2/10 and I'm trying to figure things out. The system starts to boot from the hard drive and comes up with a MacWorks/Sun Remarketing logo, then asks for a diskette. Looks like it's running MacWorks XL, is that correct? The system still has regular Lisa H/88 ROMs so it's not messed with hardware-wise. How come it wants a diskette and won't boot from the HD? I tried putting in a System 1 diskette from my Mac 128 and it gave me the "Welcome to Macintosh" splash and then died with a Sad Mac FE0002. Do I need a special Mac System version diskette to boot this sucker? Any info appreciated!! (anyone have a spare keyboard? I need a few keys) thanks Kai

28 years, 9 months

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Flex for 6809/6800

by bluesky6＠ix.netcom.com

Does anyone know if one can still get Flex for the 6809 or 6800? There're people archiving and using CP/M stuff but it seems a waste to let a very simple and neat OS like Flex go the way of the dinosaur. Ben

28 years, 9 months

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Auction: Odds and Ends, Power Supplies, etc.

by gmast＠polymail.cpunix.calpoly.edu

I am still sorting through my stuff and have a few odd items up on the eBay auction. These type of things go pretty cheap (a buck for 3 power supplies and 4 RF adapters? Cheaper than the Goodwill!) but are sometimes hard to find (especially when you need one...power supplies?). Anyway, all you have to do is go to the link listed and check the price. Remember to figure shipping into what you want to pay. I'm in CA. Lot of Power supplies & RF Adapters (TI99/4A) Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/03/97, 13:38:45 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=fpl6975 Indus GT Black Drive for Commodore 64 (photo) Current bid: $14.50 Auction ends on: 07/03/97, 13:50:38 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=mtr1454 Lot of 3 Joysticks (photo) Bidding starts at: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/03/97, 13:57:24 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=hpq2180 Atari 800XL and Power Supply (No Workee?) Current bid: $1.00 Auction ends on: 07/05/97, 13:10:40 PDT http://www2.ebay.com/aw/itemfast.cgi?item=ntp8872 Thanks for reading, Greg

28 years, 9 months

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collection value

by lynn＠ferberts.com

Are old (classic) computer magazines worth more now than the issues price? Example: original first issue of BYTE magazine? Or can I tell my husband to throw them out and give away the tin shed? Lynn Lynn Perez-Hewitt lynn(a)ferberts.com P.O. Box 1630 Oracle, AZ 85623 520.896.9316

28 years, 9 months

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Help with Apple Lisa 2

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

At 06:08 PM 7/1/97 -0700, you wrote: >Hi all, > >I just acquired a Lisa 2/10 and I'm trying to figure things out. > >The system starts to boot from the hard drive and comes up with a >MacWorks/Sun Remarketing logo, then asks for a diskette. Looks like >it's running MacWorks XL, is that correct? The system still has regular >Lisa H/88 ROMs so it's not messed with hardware-wise. > >How come it wants a diskette and won't boot from the HD? Sounds like the software is not seralized properly and it wants to see the diskette to validate the software. (the Lisa serialized the software to the machine on initial load) >I tried putting in a System 1 diskette from my Mac 128 and it gave me the >"Welcome to Macintosh" splash and then died with a Sad Mac FE0002. > >Do I need a special Mac System version diskette to boot this sucker? Yep... -jim --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

28 years, 9 months

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FAQ Bonanza

by bill＠booster.bothell.washington.edu

============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 3 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy Technical FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.6.1 Last Update: 7/01/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson <bill(a)booster.u.washington.edu>. The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 3 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with regularly asked questions which are technical in nature. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://weber.u. washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as classiccmp.faq. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: New Sections: 5.1 Updated Sections: 1.2, 2.4, 4.1, 5.1 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. General ------------------ 1.1 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? 1.2 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? 2. Media -------- 2.1 What's a hard sector disk? What's a soft sector disk? 2.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. 2.3 Can these formats be interchanged? 2.4 What disk sizes are there? 2.5 How do I take care of old media? 3. Component Failure Issues --------------------------- 3.1 Do EPROM's go bad? 3.2 How about ROM's, other chips? 3.3 How about capacitors? 3.4 Anything else? 3.5 So how do I backup all this stuff like you suggest? 4. Software ----------- 4.1 Where can I get a system disk for platform X? 4.2 What's the best way to back up my software? 5. Specific Problems/Solutions ------------------------------ 5.1 Is it possible to bypass an RF modulator to achieve composite output? ============================================================================= 1.1 I just picked up a new machine. What should I do? Don't power it up yet! All of the following should probably be done before that power switch gets flipped. Open the case - clean and visually inspect components. You're looking for traces of smoke, water, corrosion, loose screws, blown caps and resistors, cold (broken) solder joints, bent pins, etc. It may be a good idea to remove and re-seat all socketed components and connectors. If anything burned or overheated it will probably pay to replace it before powering up the unit. You can avoid a number of problems just by taking a peek inside. If you have the tools (and the machine is sufficiently rare) pull and dump backups of all EPROMs, ROMs, and PALs. If you have really cool tools (like a logic analyzer) it has been suggested that you use them to record critical information from those oh-so-hard-to-find custom chips. Specific information on how to do this is beyond the scope of a FAQ, but you probably know what you need to if you own the appropriate tools. Disconnect the power supply from the rest of the computer and start it up on a "dummy load". A six volt headlight bulb has been recommended as a convenient load. These should be available from any decent Volkswagen shop. Running the power supply without a load could result in damage to it. You may want to check the voltage output before you do this as it could be no where near the 5V average in micros. Even if you don't want to connect a load it's still probably a good idea to power it up separately from the computer for the first time. If you have a really rare beast it may be worth powering up some of the key capacitors out of circuit just to get them warmed up. Now you can power it up. Assuming it works, take a blank disk, format it, write some data to it, and read it back before using your precious software with it, as a bad disk drive could really ruin your day. 1.2 What's the best way to clean these dingy tan boxes? Cases: It seems best to start gently with such old equipment. Try soaking in a little water and dish soap and then scrubbing. This takes care of most jobs. For removing stickers try mineral oil or Goo-Gone (available at most hardware stores - in the US at least). If those don't work, acetone can be good but, if overused, can do more harm. For removing marker, almost any solvent is good (alcohol, naptha, etc) but will definitely discolor or dissolve plastic if not carefully applied. Lava soap is also good for removing marker but can smooth off textured plastic. For removing sun or tobacco discoloring a product called Purple Stuff available from auto parts stores (again, in the US at least) seems to do the job almost effortlessly. Recommended commercial products: Purple Stuff from Kragen [for discoloration] Brasso [ink/marker] (can discolor plastic) Antistatic Foam Cleaner from Electrolube [for discoloration/markings] Citra-Solv [for discoloration] (can dissolve plastic if undiluted) Cameo Copper Cleaner [ink/marker] Naptha [for stickers/goop/spooge] (very flammable) 3M GP Adhesive Remover [for stickers/goop/spooge] CRC 226 / CRC 556 [for stickers/goop/spooge] Fulcron [for discoloration] Blue Shower / BS II [for stickers/goop/spooge] Connectors: For edge connectors a plain pink eraser seems good for removing corrosion. Apparently other colors of eraser indicate a different texture - which may be damaging. Make sure to wipe the connectors with a clean cloth after erasing on them. There are a large number chemicals on the market that "magically" remove corrosion from components but as I don't know how safe they are, I'm not anxious to promote any of them. For pin style connectors a toothbrush and some softscrub or other mildly abrasive cleaner do wonders. Recommended commercial products: Electrolube contact cleaning sprays. Keyboards: I find a cycle through the dishwasher does a really nice job on keyboards. Just be sure they're completely dry before you put any power to them. If there is reason not to use a dishwasher (some key labels can come off) it is usually possible to remove each keycap and clean conventionally. [][][][][][][][][][] 2.1 What's a hard sectored disk? What's a soft sectored disk? We'll start with soft-sector since they're simpler to explain. On a soft-sector floppy disk the information that marks where a sector begins and ends is written to the disk by the computer (part of the formatting process). This means that various computers can use the same floppy disk types because the format of the disk is control- led by the operating system. Hard sector disks use a system of perforations in the media to mark the beginnings and ends of sectors. This means that computers which used hard sectored disks required the exact disk type they specified rather than a generic soft-sector floppy. A number of differently sectored disks were available - at least 10, 13, and 16 sector formats. 8 inch and 5.25 inch disks commonly used hard sectoring. 3.5 inch disks never came hard-sectored and, in fact, it would not be possible. 2.2 What's SS/SD, DS/DD, DS/QD, DS/HD, etc. These all refer to the number of useable sides on a disk and it's density (how "efficiently" the magnetic bits are pushed together). SS/SD is a Single Sided - Single Density disk, the earliest available type I believe. The storage afforded by a single density disk was very small compared to today's standards. Single Sided disks were popular because they were cheaper than DS and could be easily modified with a hole punch into double sided disks. SD was followed by Double Density which, amazingly, doubled the amount of storage space. Double Density was followed by the extremely short-lived Quad Density which doubled a DD disk. QD was short lived because High Density was right on it's heels and nearly doubled disk capacity again. DS/HD was as sophisticated as 5.25" disks became. 3.5" disks have progressed as far as DS/EHD double-sided / extra-high density. 2.3 Can these formats be interchanged? Well, that may depend on what computer you are using, but in general the following substitutions may be made: Desired Format Substitute --------------------------------------------------- Single Density Double Density Double Density none reliably Quad Density DD, HD (sometimes work, not advisable!) High Density none Other substitutions may be made, but due to physical differences in how the disks are made they are generally unreliable. It can almost be guaranteed that data written to a proper density disk of poor quality will last longer than data written to a good quality disk of the wrong density. In the case of quad density no substitution should be considered reliable. DD and HD disks both can be forced to work. One may work better than the other given the peculiarities of various drives. 2.4 What disk sizes are there? Disk Types? Physically? Standard Disks Unique/Proprietary Disks --------------------------------------------------------- 8" (Floppy) 5" (MiniFloppy) 5.25" (MiniFloppy) 3.25" (MicroFloppy) 3.5" (MicroFloppy) 3" (MicroFloppy) 2.5" 2" In addition to odd sizes - there is at least one type of disk which was physically different. "Twiggy" disks for the Apple Lisa 1 were regular 5.25" disks with the exception that they had two read/write windows. One was oriented "north" of the center hole, the other "south". 2.5 How do I take care of old media? Step one is Back It Up! After that, make sure it's kept in a clean, dry, temperature-controlled environment (I keep mine in a broken freezer). With disks it seems important to keep them standing on end rather than lying flat - the same goes for cassette tapes. I like to exercise disks and tapes at least once every six months although I have no real evidence that this has any positive effect. I have modified an old C64 floppy drive to simply spin when a disk is inserted and send large stacks of disks through it on a regular basis just to make sure they're not starting to stick up internally. An exciting and somewhat recent development is that availability of classic computer emulators that can make disk images of old media on PC's and Macs. This seems to be a very good way to backup disks since they will eventually go bad no matter how well we take care of them. The official line seems to be that floppy disks have a shelf-life of approximately 10 years. With proper care many are lasting a lot longer. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 Do EPROM's go bad? Definitely. They apparently are considered to reliably contain data for (on the outside edge) 15 years. This amount can be considerably reduced if, for example, the sticker over the window has dried out and fallen off. Luckily EPROMs were not used too extensively but they're out there. An EPROM writer/reader is a relatively cheap investment and an easy fix. Even if an EPROM has "forgotten" it's data it is still fine for being "re-educated". 3.2 How about ROMs and other chips? Things wear out. It's likely that even components which have not been fried by catastrophic failure will simply start to die someday. ROMs can be dumped to a file and re-written if they die. Other custom chips which are all too common in micros will be far more difficult to replace. The best advice is to stockpile these chips when you can - but someday even unused chips will probably start to turn up bad. In this case the best defense is to stockpile information in the hope of being able to modify an existing component to meet your needs. 3.3 How about capacitors? This seems to be another large concern, but rather than being an unreplaceable component a capacitor will take your unreplaceable components with it when it goes. It's a good idea to check out all the caps in a system if you haven't fired it up in a while. Caps go bad with time (even tantalum caps, apparently - although they are more reliable) and should be replaced if they are suspect. It's unlikely that it will be impossible to find a replacement capacitor as they are much more standard electronic components. 3.4 Anything else? Documentation: If there's anything which is entirely unreplaceable its the docs for uncommon equipment. Once they're gone, they're gone. I regularly pick up docs I find for equipment I don't have just because I may someday. Paper will, of course. go bad over time but it will be obvious and they will be easily duplicated. Hard Disks: ST-251s, ST-502s, MFM, RLL... old hard disks are going to go bad. Then they'll be gone. Theoretically, I suppose it's possible to crack a hard drive and replace a dead bearing, realign, relaminate, etc... but I've never heard of anyone doing these things in their base- ment. Perhaps in another 5 or 10 years many of us will be experts at this. 3.5 So, how do I back up all this stuff like you suggest? This answer will undoubtedly get longer as I learn more. The best ways seem to be to dump the particular ROM (or whatever) using the approp- riate equipment to a floppy disk (which most of this equipment allows).

28 years, 9 months

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FAQ Bonanza

by bill＠booster.bothell.washington.edu

============================================================================= ClassicCmp - The Classic Computers Discussion List Part 2 in the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy List Specific FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) v1.6.2 Last Update: 7/01/97 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- This FAQ is written with the primary purpose of making readily available answers to the more common questions appearing on ClassicCmp. It is Maintained by Bill Whitson <bill(a)booster.u.washington.edu>. The infor- mation in this document has been gathered from a variety of sources but, in general, the members of ClassicCmp should be credited for all contain- ed herein. I have, of course, endeavored to be as accurate as is possible and often failed ;). This FAQ is Part 2 of the ClassicCmp FAQ Trilogy. The information presented deals with regular day-to-day issues on the list. If you have questions, comments, or corrections (always welcome) please contact me at the address above. A current copy of this FAQ is available on the web at http://weber.u. washington.edu/~bcw/ccl.html or via anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27 in the directory /pub/classiccmp/faqs as classiccmp.faq. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updates: New Sections: 1.5, 1.7, 2.9, 2.10 Updated Sections: 1.1, 2.3, 2.4, 3.1 Removed: 5.4, 6.1-on ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. About the List ----------------- 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? 1.3 What's a Classic Computer? 1.4 Who runs this thing? 1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator? 1.6 Don't you know you're duplicating what others have done? 1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list? 2. Protocol and Etiquette ------------------------- 2.1 What can I talk about? 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? 2.3 Can I talk about Mini/MainFrames? 2.4 Can I post advertisements? 2.5 Can I ask people to give me their computers? 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x? 2.7 Where should I look before posting a dumb question? 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS?!? 2.9 Can I post trophy lists? 2.10 Can I use obscene languagein my posts? 3. Misc List Information ------------------------ 3.1 How many subscribers are there? 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? 3.3 Is this list archived? 4. ClassicCmp Resources on the Net ---------------------------------- 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a Web Site? 4.2 How come the Web Site is so ugly? 4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP Site? Collecting ---------- 5.1 Where can I find Classic Computers? 5.2 How much is machine x worth? 5.3 Will thousands of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? 5.4 I don't understand anything. Help! ============================================================================= 1.1 What is ClassicCmp? It's a mailing list for the discussion of classic computers. Topics center on collection, restoration, and operation. It is also an appropriate place for stories and reminiscences of classic computers. Lofty discussions dealing with the philosophical and/or metaphysical aspects of computers are often better handled in private e-mail. 1.2 Why is ClassicCmp? Uh, why not? There are lots of people who love these old machines and it seems like a fun idea to get together and talk about them. 1.3 What is a Classic Computer? _Any computer_ that has not been manufactured for 10 years is a classic. This definition is one I made up and it's entirely arbitrary. It seems to work OK, so I've kept it. 1.4 Who runs this thing? That would be me, Bill Whitson - email bcw(a)u.washington.edu. 1.5 How come I can never reach this so-called list operator? Sorry. It does often take me several days (sometimes weeks!) to respond to e-mail. I am often away for days at a time and when I'm not I'm still probably busy doing real work. I receive more than double the amount of mail that goes to the list in the form of spam, bounced messages, odd user requests, general bitching, etc. and I still have to filter out the messages I actually have to respond to, to remain employed ;). I will get back to you eventually. 1.6 Do you know you're just duplicating work other people have done. I get a "reinventing the wheel" e-mail at least once a week. If you show me another group of computer collectors that claims a membership as large as this one I'll show you a group that must be very hard to find. Obviously there are other groups of collectors and I'm cheering them on - I don't see a problem with duplicating and reduplicating lore that's quickly disappearing anyway. 1.7 How much mail should I expect to get on this list? The daily load varies widely from about 10 messages to over 100. Average seems to be about 44 messages a day. There are times where the message load peaks for as much as a week. [][][][][][][][][] 2.1 What can I talk about? Anything related to classic computers as defined above. There are many people on this list that really know what they're talking about, so you might want to check facts before you start shooting off messages. It's also a good idea to actually read the FAQs and check the archives a little before posting. 2.2 Can I talk about PCs? Yes. PCs which haven't been manufactured for 10 years. Even then, be aware that in many cases you would get a better response posting to PC newsgroups. 2.3 Can I talk about Minis/MainFrames/WorkStations/Gigantic Talking Boxes with Flashing Lights & Coundown Timers/Robots from Alien Civilizations? There has apparently been some misconception that this is a list for micros/home computers only. You'll note I said "misconception". 2.4 Can I post advertisements? Sure. As long as they're related to _classic_ computers. And, of course, use your brain - don't spam. Also, please state up-front whether or not you are willing to ship the items you sell outside your country as there are members of this list in a number of different countries. 2.5 Can I ask people to sell/give me their computers? Sure. But you're not likely to get a very nice response. Mine, for example, would be: Get your own f***ing computer! There are several people on usenet who will vouch for this. When someone posts about one of their machines without offering to sell it - it's really a pretty good bet that they're not secretly trolling for offers. See section 5 for info on how to find yourself a computer. 2.6 Can I ask for help fixing item x. Yes. Be aware that it may be difficult to help you fix things if you don't have much knowledge of how computers work or of how to use basic electronics tools (VOM/DMM, soldering iron, EPROM burner, etc). I'm no whiz with this stuff and the little knowledge I have has come from asking questions and then buying books to find out what "Simple... Just check the voltage on the caps in the PS to make sure one of them isn't flaking out!" exactly means. 2.7 Where can I look before posting a dumb question? It might be a good idea to take a look at what's available in the Archive section of the ClassicCmp web site (see below). 2.8 Can I type obscenities about Microsoft in ALL CAPS!?! (Or, in general, be unreasonable with reagard to advocacy posts?) Check your anti-MS baggage at the door, please. For that matter, drop any posts that serve only to perpetuate the holy wars. 2.9 Can I post trophy lists? Ahem. Er... I'm not going to go to the extent of banning this practise but it is considered bad manners. Don't whine to me because I used to be guilty of this and curbed myself ;). Post lists of newly acquired goods if you actually need info on them, not just to show off. 2.10 Can I use obscene language in my posts? Yes. Although I'm sure many people would prefer you did not. A number of people have complained about this. I'm not going to outlaw swearing - now that I've informed you that it bothers people you can make your choice. [][][][][][][][][][] 3.1 How many subscribers are there? Around 180 and changing daily. 3.2 How many subscribers use machine x? Check the web site (see below). The Classic Computer Encyclopedia shows the number of machines registered by subscribers. 3.3 Is this list archived? Yes. The archives are available on the FTP site (see below) in the directory /pub/classiccmp/archive. The file name format indicates the month/year of the archive. Keep in mind that they are quite large. [][][][][][][][][][] 4.1 Does ClassicCmp have a web site? Yep. http://weber.u.washington.edu/bcw/ccl.html 4.2 How come the web site is so ugly? How come a PET is so ugly? Who cares as long as it works? 4.3 Does ClassicCmp have an FTP site? Yes. Anonymous FTP at 140.142.225.27. Look in /pub/classiccmp. There's not much there that's not available on the web site. I'm starting to load old drivers and system disks on occasion. There is an incoming directory which subscribers may use for ClassicCmp-related file transfers if needed. [][][][][][][][][][] 5.1 Where can I find classic computers? The best places seem to be thrift stores and swap meets. These are closely followed by pawn shops and mom and pop computer stores. The holy grails are electronics scrap yards - but they tend to be wary of individual pick-and-choosers. Oh yeah - garage sales! 5.2 How much is machine x worth? Precisely as much as you'll pay for it. Oh, you're selling it? Then, precisely as much as I'll pay for it. Seriously, no one prices these any more. I have an old Computer Blue Book that lists many classic computers but the prices are just ridiculous. Some machines (Apple Lisa's, old old Mini's, and unreleased prototypes) are starting down the road toward their original selling prices but it's unlikely that most will ever be worth more than the cost of their components. 5.3 Will 1000's of innocent machines be scrapped if I don't save them? Yes. This is the impetus behind every collector's tireless and selfless effort. Each machine we fail to save has it's gold parts mercilessly hacked off and sold (just like rhino horns - and look at the rhinos). The remainder is then sent to China to be made into bicycle spokes (you probably think I'm joking). Save a computer! Act now! Remind your SO of the rhino and cuter, fuzzier animals. It might work. In all seriousness - there are a large (and growing) number of so called "computer and electronics 'recyclers'" who take usable computers and recycle them into "reusable scrap". Small amounts of gold, silver, and platinum are extracted and the remainder of the material is generally just marketed to less wasteful countries. 5.4 I don't understand anything. Help! Don't worry - you're not the only one. Reading this list, old magazines, books and whatever else you can get your hands on is the first step. Once you reach a critical mass of knowledge thigs get a lot easier. I'm working on putting together a list of books and tools that a beginner should get his hands on. If you have suggestions, let me know. =============================================================================

28 years, 9 months

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who's on first?

by manney＠nwohio.com

> I would be most interested in hearing peoples' views on where the > Bletchley Park computer (i can't remember its name) I seem to remember it was codenamed "the Bomb", as that was the British mangling of the Polish word.

28 years, 9 months

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Strange Tandy 1000HX

by manney＠nwohio.com

I had a 1000HX (still have, I think -- it's out on loan) with internal 5 1/4, external 3 1/2

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by manney＠nwohio.com

DIGIAL network. > My favorites were MILRAT, and the other two cluster members MILROT and > MILDEW. They were apt names for vaxen located where straight down through > the floor meant you were in the pond. Reminds me of the spinoffs of SNOBOL -- FASBOL, SPITBOL... Speaking of names, the best (most descriptive) program name I ever ran across was the CP/M debugger, DDT.

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

In message <33B8B786.6F47(a)ndirect.co.uk> classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu writes: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Yes, I can do any of those with a PC or many, many other machines. But the MK14 > > is small and portable. It doesn't need a monitor. It will start the program > > instantly at switch-on. It is still useful today. > > O, come on......of course you can go to work everyday with a penny > farthing (early bicycles with the very different sized wheels) but would > you? If I rode a bicycle, and had a penny-farthing, I might well use it, yes. Please give me one _good_ reason not to. While I can think of other things that would be a good as the MK-14 for (say) I2C chip testing (a microcontroller board springs to mind), I can't think of anything that would be _better_. The origianl statement stands. I can't think of a single computer system (owned by me or not) that can't be used for useful work in 1997. The fact that it's old has nothing to do with it. I can think of many applications that need fast machines with plenty of memory. I'd not use (most) classic computers for those. But as I rarely need to do such work, I see no reason _not_ to use a classic. > > enrico -tony

28 years, 9 months

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Help identify these Atari S-100 Boards (fwd)

by dastar＠crl.com

Here is a reply I got from alt.atari.2600 on my Atari S-100 boards. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: jjessop1(a)home.com (Jerry Jessop) Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.8bit,alt.atari.2600 Subject: Re: Help identify these Atari S-100 Boards Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 20:08:30 GMT Sam, Looks like you found some boards used in the old 2600 in-house development systems. These units were Cromemco S-100 based computers with the appropriate Atari S-100 cards installed. This system in turn was connected to a PDP-11. Of course they could also be coin-op development tools, hard to tell without looking at them. jj On 30 Jun 1997 00:37:22 GMT, dastar(a)crl.com (Sam Ismail) wrote: > >I just discovered some *VERY* interesting S100 boards that I didn't >realize I had in my box 'o S-100 boards. They seem to be some kind of >Atari development/prototyping system. The boards are: > >65xx Emulator, part no. 100-015-2, Rev. 2, (c) 1983 Atari > [this is the PCB only] > >Trace Memory Interface, part no. 100-002-2 (two of these) > has (3) Intersil 6402 chips and (3) 26-pin connectors (for interface to a > terminal), DIP switches to select the baud rate for the 6402 chips (up to > 38400 bps). Also has a 40-pin (2-rows of 20) ribbon cable connector > labelled J100. One has a test sticker on it with "OK 10/25/82" written > on it. > >6502 Processor, part no. 100-003-2, Rev. 4 > has a 6502 and some other stuff, such as a clock speed DIP switch > (1, 2, 4 MHZ settings), some RAM, a 40-pin ribbon cable connector > which presumably connects to the Trace Memory Interface card (labelled > COMP BUS J100). > I have 2 of these boards but one is incomplete (does not have all the > chips the other one does, for instance the 6502). > >All have the Atari name and logo in yellow lettering. > >Any idea what this stuff is and what it was used for? > >If you can shed any light, please reply to dastar(a)crl.com. Thanks! -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass

28 years, 9 months

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who's on first?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

. > seems to be the fact that they were electronic and the idea > of electronic counters (which is most of what ENIAC was) had This is fairly complete history of electronic computings origins however there were several electric (relay logic) designs not mentioned here. While slow they capitialized on the then fairly mature telephone realys of varying design. They were generally of two types the contactor or n-pole double throw or the stepping(counting) with typically 11 positions. The later could be used to make counters or registers. In the early years (pre about '44) these were used to make calculator type machines of the programmed or fixed type. Allison

28 years, 9 months

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Strange Tandy 1000HX

by marcw＠lightside.com

> On 01-Jul-97, jpero(a)mail.cgo.wave.ca wrote: > > >Ok, put in generic 1.44 mb floppy drive and Pow! Why? that oddball > > I don't see much point in this though since the HX's controller won't > handle the 1.44 meg drive anyway. Plus, it'd be easy enough to add a floppy > drive to it, but supposedly neither knock-out plate has been punched out > behind either of the drive bays! This is what prompted my original post. > I've been using my HX for some ten years now. Since it won't die it's been upgraded quite a bit. Anyhind, I didn't even know the HX's shipped without a 3.5" floppy. That was standard. Maybe a Shack guy removed it to sell it to someone way back when. > > Actually, it's an 8088 running at like 7.16mhz I believe. One needs the > PLUS Memory board to add the memory above 256k, the DMA functions, and the two > additional PLUS connectors for the additional cards. That's a neat idea about > the SCSI though...heck, it'd be a cinch fitting one of the newer drives into > one of the 1" x 3-1/2" drive bays. The only problem would be power to the > drive, since as you've already mentioned, Tandy likes to send the power > through the ribbon cable. > SCSI is what I have on this one also. A 2.5" drive works fine but the other stuff doesn't. When I had the RLL and later an IDE (for a few days), they all got power from the controller card. Some RLL's have power leads on the controller. DCS (Tandy 3rd party stuff) had the IDE stuff. Didn't pay attention where the connectors were on the 8-bit card. > Yes, true, but XT class machines were still pretty much the norm for the > low-end in '87 when the HX appeared. I'm glad to be getting another one > though and remember 'PCM' making a big deal about the machine, asking if it > might not be the best 1000-series machine up to that time. Too bad Tandy > didn't at least make it a 286 like the TX which came out about the same time. > > Jeff Hmm, a 286 design in this shell would've been nice. I didn't realize how compact this case was 'til a neighbor came by with a Toshiba 286 laptop recently. The thing was huge. Ten years and my Tandy 1000 HX keeps running. Marc -- >> ANIME SENSHI << Marc D. Williams marcw(a)lightside.com Lightside, Inc. marc.williams(a)mb.fidonet.org The MailBox BBS marc.williams(a)652.sasbbs.com Paradigm Shift BBS IRC Nick: Senshi Channel: #dos #IrcHelp http://www.agate.net/~tvdog/internet.html -- DOS Internet Tools

28 years, 9 months

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PCjr Cartridges?

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 11:17 PM 6/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >I have, >BASIC All I saw were BASIC cartridges... I'll let you know if anything else turns up. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

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Strange Tandy 1000HX

by jeffh＠unix.aardvarkol.com

I've just arranged for a Tandy 1000HX and it appears to be kind of odd. It was bought at one of Tandy's infamous 'tent sales' where they dispose of stuff they've had sitting around the local 'Shack, and the guy who bought it originally said that it didn't come with any 3-1/2" floppy installed and that both covers are still over the bays. It boots off of an external 5-1/4" drive, which if I remember correctly, is selectable easily enough by way of the SETUPHX program included with it's DOS diskettes. Do any of you TRS-80/Tandy knowledgable people remember ever seeing a HX set up like this? Every one of them I've ever seen new has come with a 3-1/2" floppy in the left-most bay, right next to the expansion connectors. I bought one of these nifty machines when they first appeared as well, and had an external 5-1/4" floppy and CM-11 monitor with it, as well as the PLUS memory, RS232 and 1200 bps modem cards. Jeff jeffh(a)unix.aardvarkol.com -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amiga enthusiast and collector of early, classic microcomputers http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757

28 years, 9 months

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ibm 3178c

by Pete＠madhippy.demon.co.uk

i've got an ibm 3178 c, anyone know what it is? (it's look like some kind of terminal) seems to be in 3 main parts i) monitor ii) base of monitor iii) bit that seems to go under base of monitor cheers for any info -- Pete Robinson pete(a)madhippy.demon.co.uk http://www.madhippy.demon.co.uk - 8-bit, faqs, emulators, web utilities.

28 years, 9 months

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CLASSICCMP digest 99

by kyrrin＠wizards.net

Date: Sun, 29 Jun 1997 18:16:33 +0000 From: "e.tedeschi" <e.tedeschi(a)ndirect.co.uk> To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Subject: Re: 'Home' computer: Definition Message-ID: <33B6A681.66DE(a)ndirect.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel A. Seagraves wrote: >> On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Bruce Lane wrote: >> >> I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms >> indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. > > My PDP is a home computer. All it takes up is a table (I don't have a > rack yet. It's coming...) Besides, my XT is bigger than the PDP at the > moment (condidering keyboard, monitor, printer, and disks) > > Anything I can fit inside is a home computer! If it's in a home, and > it's a computer, it's a home computer, right? Absolutely right, Daniel! Thanks... Then Enrico responded with... >Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a >Ferrari a "goto work car"?) I've seen at least a pair of them used for exactly that about 20 miles east of me in Bellevue (the local Yuppie haven). If someone's got enough bucks to own one of those things, you better believe they're going to get good use out of it. ;-) The whole definition argument seems pretty pointless, Enrico. That's what I was trying to say in the first place. If you want to set your own definitions of what constitutes a 'home computer,' that's fine. The rest of us will happily(?) continue to use whatever strikes our fancy for computing hardware in the home (a much better definition, I think). As has been pointed out, this group is for discussion of 'classic' computers. Bill Whitson's definition of 'classic,' in this case, refers to ANY machine that is ten years or more old. Period. Since MicroVAXen and other DEC machines fall neatly into that category, I will continue to discuss them with others on this group. Period. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have work to do on this beautiful 12-year old HP drafting plotter I just bought (replace a couple of switches, clean it up, and it'll be good to go, especially once I hook it to the MicroVAX!) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

28 years, 9 months

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One for you mainframe and mini types

by jeffh＠unix.aardvarkol.com

for those of you interested in mainframes and minis, there's an unknown piece of test equipment going for sale on AuctionWeb, item# yzx34561. it sounds pretty interesting,if one has a use for such a piece of equipment. Jeff jeffh(a)unix.aardvarkol.com -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Collector of Classic Computers: Amiga 1000, Apple II+, Atari 800, 800XL, MegaST-2, Commodore 128D, 16, Plus/4, VIC-20, Kaypro 2X, Mattel Aquarius, Osbourne Executive, Radofin Aquarius, Timex-Sinclair 1000, TRS-80 Color Computer 3, and Model IV. Also Odyssey2, Atari SuperPong and Atari 2600VCS game consoles

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

In message <33B75A67.2AE4(a)ndirect.co.uk> classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu writes: > Brett wrote: > > > > On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > > > There are computers that you could not possibly USE but they are > > > important for what they meant (and mean today) in short for their > > > "heritage". Without them you could not have used (and use) the ones you > > > are using today. > I assume the following is one of the computers you claim can't possibly be used today... > How about the Science of Cambridge (Sinclair) MK XIV ? It had 256 bytes You mean an MK-14. I've never seen it printed in roman numerals (I have the machine, user manual, a couple of 3rd party books, the adverts, etc, etc,etc It was my first computer). > (NOT Kb, BYTES) of RAM memory, LED display, not modulator and no way of > storing programs (you could add these at a later stage as accessories). Perhaps you could explain _why_ I can't use one today. I've written many, many embedded control programs (monitor some inputs, update state variables, toggle outputs, etc) that would _trivially_ fit into 256 bytes of SC/MP code. If I add the optional INS8154 RAM/IO chip I have another 128 bytes of RAM and 16 bidirectional I/O lines. I can also add another 256 bytes by raiding my junk box for some 2111's. I can think of a few dozen applications that I could use that for. A trivial one is an I2C chip tester - replace the monitor ROMs with ones burnt to contain the correct code (avoids using the cassette interface option...), and have said code read I2C addresses/data from the hex keypad and bit-bang the I2C protocol on a couple of the 8154 lines. Or, how about a Centronics printer tester (emulate the centronics port on the 8154, make it print the classic scrolling ASCII text). Or a programmable pulse generator for digital IC testing. Or a hundred-and-one other applications. Yes, I can do any of those with a PC or many, many other machines. But the MK14 is small and portable. It doesn't need a monitor. It will start the program instantly at switch-on. It is still useful today. > > enrico > > -tony >

28 years, 9 months

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Plural for Abacus

by foxnhare＠goldrush.com

>From: Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers <gram(a)cnct.com> >Subject: Re: 'Home' computer: Definition >On Sun, 29 Jun 1997, Brett wrote: >> Which reminds me, my oldest handheld is from Korea. It feels great on my >> feet! My uncle picked it up for me in the mid-60's tho the design has been >> around in Asia for centuries. >Yeah, got three assorted items of that nature myself (abacuses? >abaci? Never met anybody with more than one to tell me the proper >plural!) >-- >Ward Griffiths Consulting "The Japanese Abacus; Its Use and Theory" by Takashi Kojima (12th printing, 1960) He uses "abacuses" as the plural form. (very interesting history that dates way back to Roman days and farther). Unfortunately I have a somewhat incompatible model from my book, on my wall is a chinese abacus with 5 and 2 beads per digit, where the japanese models use 4 and 1 (which sounds more logical to me, easier to execute a carry to the next digit.) An interesting chapter in the book covers a contest hosted by Stars & Stripes between a U.S. Pvt. in Macarthur's Finance Disbursing Section, (an awarded expert operator of calculators of the tim)e and a Japanese champion abacus operator from the Postal Ministry. As of 1946 the Japanese Abacuses were still able to beat the latest in American calculators. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

28 years, 9 months

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ROM Archive

by rcini＠msn.com

Bill: {...} > 2. Submission & storage: UUEncoded image file e-mailed to "repository"; > ROM/EPROM chips sent by snail mail and returned. All submissions should have > as much info about the source computer as possible (board revisions, date of > mnaufacture, etc.) >>I think that anything doing with the chips (purchasing, programming, >>shipping) should be left to the person that needs them. Sure, not very >>many people on the list have programmers, but there are enough kind souls >>that would do the programming. Anyway, having a policy concerning >>shipping and supply may turn into a big headache. I don't think that this would be a problem. I don't anticipate that many people would want it this way (we are all hardware hackers {in the nice sense}, after all). Even so, as long as a person doesn't want Fedex delivery, how bad can it be?? > 4. Cost: nominal (cost of postage and EPROM). >>Doing any more may actually be legally shakey. I don't think so. See one of my earlier messages on this topic. If you're posting a ROMimage, you have already "paid" your licensing fee because you own the machine. I'm just replacing a defective copy with a working copy (sort of like exchanging a defective diskette dor a working one). We're not "creating" or "copying" for distribution. Also, we can limit it to pre-PC machines. Chances are that these manufacturers are either out of business or no longer support the machine. >>Additional thought... >>How will additional required information be tied to the ROM images (as in >>manufacturers part numbers, revision levels, serial numbers, >>corresponding hardware information, etc.)? ROMS (and PALs) often change >>as the circuits get minor "improvements" (ECOs). I don't know yet. I'm grappling with this now. There are all sorts of issues with this: parts are house numbered, or not numbered at all. Maybe we can go by unit serial number, date-of-manufacture stickers, and pc-board identifications (such as "Revision A" or the like). ------------------------------------------------- Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Netowrking

28 years, 9 months

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Encryptor Board...

by foxnhare＠goldrush.com

> Also have these: > > the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] > > Any idea what this stuff is? > > > Sam I was reading in the Atari Game Systems FAQ that the 7800 carts are encrypted with a special encryption and only those encrypted games get access to the 7800's advanced video resources (otherwise it just gets 2600 resources)... This was a measure by Atari to make sure to get a share of the profits from 3rd party game developers. There could be a slight possibility this is an encryption unit for the 7800 game system... Currently no one knows (or is saying they know) how to encrypt 7800 carts. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by jpero＠mail.cgo.wave.ca

Hey, that mailing list fudged part of my first line as their command which reported in error and refused to post it here. :( Q. Hold on, I would like to express my opinions... "Home Computer" term is invented by corporations to supposely help define their markets and totally miss it all the time because users needs is usually higher than their corporates' computers by factor of 1.5 to 2. At same time tries to pull off a coup on "home" users by selling stripped down with loads of cut corners and oft-nonstandard parts machine at horrible prices. Case in point: PCjr. PCjr and orignal 2 piece PS/1 (sold at 1000 bux cdn but you get no HD in it, introduced 1990's but users right away dumped them by pallets barely 2 years after. Yuk!) Side note: I traded few things to get this PS/1 2011 and used it for a while but sold it cheaply to a user who have modest needs than I. (for me, I can't manage well without hard drive attached even all the down to XT but not for apple II's their floppy drive is very fast enough to forgo hd, very impressed but at that time too expensive for my taste but now they are so cheap now.) So there was a bad taste to this name "home computers" in general. Similar types of computers did well in many areas but happened to lack important areas that killed it. Ironically, better to build DIY similar capablies 386, 80mb, 1mb, desktop/mono vga and still easily interchangable than that darned PS/1 2011 models. When I read about many machines and few "home computers" as called toys but I was mistaken when I saw and heard that "toy", boy, they're mistaken and I was taken too for a while! Indeed they were used for anything within their capablies so I accept anything that has CPU in it at same time useful and expandable should be decent computers, no more or less. :) C64, PET's, apples and such has just right stuff to keep users happy. In closing, corporations always underestimate "home" users. But now they are not pushing this word and crippled machines anymore, now selling them in general to any users execpt for corporations who needs turnkey system just to do very specific jobs like weak machine strictly for WP use, alphas for servers and heavy graphics, fast processor for programming but that is getting blurred that most users can afford them and can put them in their homes. Ok, now I could respond to yours... :) > I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms > indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. Suppose, Digital did not cared a whit and cut prices on that and we would be sure many would have one in home if they're small enough and easy on power requirements. Linux is there now and NT can be run on alphas but bit late and cost is fast appoaching to affordable levels where getting a pentium pro machine is not only option. > > For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in > general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as > any machine that you can: > > * Comfortably fit through your door... > > * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... > > * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... > > * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your home! > > Which just goes to show that such terminology is so relative, there's > little point in debating it. Why waste the bandwidth over something as > trivial as a difference in wording? > > (No, I'm not trying to start a flamewar; I posted this because I'm > concerned that the current thread regarding 'home' computers may erupt into > one!) > > Caveat Emperor!

28 years, 9 months

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Digital PDT-11/150 disk drive?

by dbetz＠xlisper.mv.com

Anyone know where I could get a replacement disk drive for a Digital PDT-11/150? This is a machine with an LSI-11 processor and two 8 inch floppy drives that runs RT-11. I've got two machines but one has a floppy that doesn't work. I'd like to find a replacement drive if possible. Thanks in advance, David Betz -- David Betz dbetz(a)xlisper.mv.com DavidBetz(a)aol.com (603) 472-2389

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by kyrrin＠wizards.net

I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as any machine that you can: * Comfortably fit through your door... * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your home! Which just goes to show that such terminology is so relative, there's little point in debating it. Why waste the bandwidth over something as trivial as a difference in wording? (No, I'm not trying to start a flamewar; I posted this because I'm concerned that the current thread regarding 'home' computers may erupt into one!) Caveat Emperor! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

28 years, 9 months

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bibliography

by e.tedeschi＠ndirect.co.uk

- "Fumbling the Future" by Douglas Smith and Robert Alexander - "Halcion Days" By??? I would like to add these two titles to my HOME COMPUTER BIBLIOGRAPHY. Does anybody have the name of the publishers and the year of publishing? Thank you enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website <http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~e.tedeschi> ================================================================ visit Brighton: <http://www.brighton.co.uk/tourist/welcome.htm>

28 years, 9 months

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Interesting S100 boards

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Sam Ismail <dastar(a)crl.com> writes: > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] > > Any idea what this stuff is? Well, no. I pulled a CCS catalog (dated Feb 1981) and took a look, and the only 28xx card was the 2810 Z80 CPU. As I read the catalog, though, I might expect 28xx to mean some sort of processor or coprocessor. Or maybe not; CCS weren't entirely consistent with their numbering scheme and the sample sizes weren't that large. -Frank McConnell

28 years, 9 months

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USING classic machines

by IVIE＠cc.usu.edu

> Even the kaypro, while fairly > fast has the slowest screen on the planet. I I beg to differ. The slowest screen on the planet is the Pro350. Roger Ivie ivie(a)cc.usu.edu

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

actually, ive heard the plural for unix to be unices, rather than unixen, or also expressed as *nix, for the different flavours of unix out there. the hacker's dictionary is great though, just to read the words and their origins. i've now got everyone at work to use the term "virtual friday" which i picked out of the dictionary! =D << > Is VAXen the plural of VAX ? Why? Play on words. Like the plural of 'Ox' is 'Oxen', plurals of many things involving computers that end in 'x' end in 'xen'. As VAXen, Unixen (for the many variations on the Unix OS such as Venix, Linux, BSD, Solaris, AIX, Xenix, and several others. You'll also see more than one box (as in CPU) referred to as 'boxen'. Check out _The New Hacker's Dictionary_, 2nd Edition, from MIT Press, also available in many forms on the Net as the "Jargon File". Currently (and for a long time now) maintained by Eric S. Raymond. Try <http://www2.dictionary.com/dictionary.jargon/>. (Actually, recommended to everybody who ever wonders what one of us old farts is talking about). -- Ward Griffiths >> david

28 years, 9 months

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A little guidance - TI Xenix

by danjo＠xnet.com

WAHOO! I am in as Root! And I ain't gonna tell you what it was! Now, anyone know what the Streaming Tape Drive device is called? I can boot with this (an old Adaptec SCSI board) installed. I also have 2 CB811 cards but only one seems to come up with a light, the other one just flashes? *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. I can not boot with either or both of these installed. I haven't tried real hard, maybe the console port changes with these in. But I also don't hear all the beeps if these are in. Here's my last bootup record ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sat Jun 28 23:11:07 *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. Can't find any CB811 boards Texas Instruments print screen v1.01 SPA initialization complete Streaming cartridge tape v2.00[A] (int=3,dma=3,base=00000220) Irootdev 1/40, pipedev 1/40, swapdev 1/41 JKL0L1L2L3disk[W] drive 0: cyls = 918, heads = 15, secs = 17 nswap = 5610, swplo = 0, Hz = 50 L4maximum user process size = 8655k L5MNOPmem: total = 8064k, reserved = 4k, kernel = 1088k, user = 6 Sat Jun 28 23:11:08 972k kernel: drivers = 4k, 0 screens = 0k, 600 i/o bufs = 600k, msg bufs = 8k QRSTUVWXYZdisk[W] drive 1: cyls = 918, heads = 15, secs = 17 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have looked and can not find any docs on the CB811's or the Tape Drive 8-( 8-( 8-( Anybody know anything about either of these????? BC

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> Is VAXen the plural of VAX ? Why? hobson's choice, it just is. For some reason VAXes never caught in some circles especally when you dealing with SMP and clusters of vaxen. There are many stories why, most I've forgotten though as a millrat I should be up on it. Actually there are some good stories about node names on the DIGIAL network. My favorites were MILRAT, and the other two cluster members MILROT and MILDEW. They were apt names for vaxen located where straight down through the floor meant you were in the pond. Allison

28 years, 9 months

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Historical Research

by broswell＠syssrc.com

Kevin, did you ever get that draft I emailed you? What is going on with you book? Bob Roswell System Source 338 Clubhouse Road Hunt Valley, MD 21031 (410) 771-5544 ext 336 broswell(a)syssrc.com www.syssrc.com

28 years, 9 months

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Weekend Additions

by rcini＠msn.com

David: You can still get Tandy/RS software directly from their National Parts service. Last year when I acquired a Model 100 system, I needed the DVI (disk-video interface) diskette, I called them. The price: $5 each. I can't seem to find the telephone number (it is an 800#, though), but it's called "Tandy Consumer Mail Center". You should be able to get the number from your local R/S. Give them the catalog# and what you're looking for. They will probably refer you to the Tandy Software Service Center, where you can order the diskette. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking ======================= Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:13:11 -0400 (EDT) From: SUPRDAVE(a)aol.com To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Subject: weekend additions Message-ID: <970628101309_408583751(a)emout07.mail.aol.com> i need some help on what i found this weekend. a trs80 model III 48k. came with trsdos disk, but i havent tested it yet. can anyone point to a source of software. now i need a model ][ to fill in the blanks!

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by manney＠nwohio.com

Is VAXen the plural of VAX ? Why?

28 years, 9 months

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ROM Archive

by rcini＠msn.com

Sam and William: Here's what I think so far (which isn't much <g>): 1. Record format: open (depending on software for EPROM programmer); S-records, Intel Hex, binary. 2. Submission & storage: UUEncoded image file e-mailed to "repository"; ROM/EPROM chips sent by snail mail and returned. All submissions should have as much info about the source computer as possible (board revisions, date of mnaufacture, etc.) 3. Requests & withdrawls: by e-mail to those with programmers; by mail for those supplying their own chips; e-mail request with no chip sent. 4. Cost: nominal (cost of postage and EPROM). How does this sound so far?? ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking ------------------------------ What format would these images be? S-records? William Donzelli william(a)ans.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 10:40:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)crl.com> To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Subject: Re: Computer Documentation Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.970625103943.740O-100000(a)crl2.crl.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Richard A. Cini, Jr. wrote: > As far as ROMs are concerned, maybe we can start a "ROM Archive" > database/repository. Members with EPROM programmers could make copies of > known-good ROMS from various machines at the request of other members. Good idea. I think someone's thrown this out before. Anyone want to volunteer to coordinate? > As far as Copyright concerns, I don't think that there are any. First, many > of our target companies are out of business. Second, we are not selling these > chips (and the software contained therein) in a commercial sense. Third, > they're being used as a one-for-one replacement for defective firmware. I view > it like a diskette: I own Norton Utilities with a bad disk 1. My friend also > owns Norton Utilities, and he makes me a copy of his disk 1. Both of us have > valid software licenses because we both bought the program. It's like > preservation of matter. Let's put it this way: if you don't tell anyone, I won't. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ - Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> Of course you could go to work on a Ferrari BUT would you? (and is a > Ferrari a "goto work car"?) If work is a race car driver, it might be. ;-) Assuming it's not outclassed. Allison

28 years, 9 months

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DOS 2.11 software (fwd)

by manney＠nwohio.com

I can help...I have lotsa "old" games (MDA/MGA/CGA) -- mostly shareware. Please tell him to contact me. ---------- > From: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > To: Manney > Subject: DOS 2.11 software (fwd) > Date: Saturday, June 28, 1997 1:59 PM > > > > OK guys, here is a request I got, maybe someone can help this poor guy! > Thanks, > > Les > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 08:26:19 -0400 (EDT) > From: KenpoKidJB(a)aol.com > To: more(a)camlaw.Rutgers.EDU > Subject: software > > hey, i went to your web site, but didn't find what i wanted. i'm looking for > dos 2.11 programs that will run off of a 3.5" floppy. most specifically, i'm > especially looking for games. any kind will do, but even more specifically, > i'm looking for text driven adventure games, as my kaypro 2000 LCD screen > doesn't do very well with graphics!! so, let me know what you can do for > me.. i really appreciate it. > Jeremiah >

28 years, 9 months

1
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Plus/4 Cartridges

by foxnhare＠goldrush.com

RE From: Jeff Hellige <jeffh(a)unix.aardvarkol.com> Subject: C= 16 & Plus/4 cartridges > For the first time since I actively started collecting old systems and > the software and peripherals, I finally came across some program > cartridges for the C-16 & Plus/4 today. They came from a guy who does a >flea market each weekend and who keeps an eye out for 8bit stuff, and he >picked them up with me in mind. They are 'Strange Odyssey' and 'Jack >Attack'. Anyway, my question is, since these are the only ones I've >ever run across, other than the cartridge that shipped with the C-16, >were there many made for these machines? > Jeff jeffh(a)unix.aardvarkol.com Sounds like two from a set an electronics secods outlet was selling... The set had 8 carts, Jack Attack, Strange Oddesy, Plus Calc, Plus Script (plus/4 verions of easycalc and easyscript), and some others I can't remember or locate, total of 8 carts. I think that might have been the bulk of the U.S. release for the Plus/4. Of course in europe the Plus/4 went many years of popularity with many companies supplying games (just check the net you will find lots if information, though many of the games are PAL mode, *sigh*) Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

28 years, 9 months

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'Home' computer: Definition

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in > general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as > any machine that you can: > > * Comfortably fit through your door... > * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... > * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... > * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your > home Great loved it! What I'd pointed out before is many of the PDP-11s were in the same space and competing for the same percieved market as the PC. While some -11s were large like the 11/70 with RP06/7 disks and wanting a cooled computer room. most were at must one rack and a disk systems that were more modest in size. The systems I refered to as desktop were: LSI-11/03 (floppy based in short rack 28" tall) PDP-11/23+ (in 40" tall rack with RL02 removeable disk and floppy) PDT-11/130 (slow tape but it was only vt100 sized!) PDT-11/150 (Late 70s early 80s) not large at all. (also called breadbox) PRO350 and later 380 Microvax I/II (ba23 pedestal) VS2000 (box slightly larger than DECMATEIII) VS3100 (aka pizza box) These happen to be DEC systems but IBM, HP, DG were all out there too with desktop sized or desk side minies in disgusise. All very collectable and also useable! Allison

28 years, 9 months

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PROMS

by kyrrin＠wizards.net

Tim Shoppa wrote... Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 06:26:54 -0800 (PDT) From: Tim Shoppa <shoppa(a)alph02.triumf.ca> To: classiccmp(a)u.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: Archiving & other news Message-ID: <9706281326.AA21254(a)alph02.triumf.ca> Content-Type: text >Does this include 1702A's and 2704's? Checking my wall chart, it doesn't look like it right away. However, I will check with Data I/O's web site (they have an online device support lookup). -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

28 years, 9 months

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USING classic machines

by cerebral＠michianatoday.com

At 08:59 AM 6/27/97 BST, you wrote: >> I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a >> modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full >> photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am > >I have used 'modern' PC's (well, at least pentiums with 16 MBytes RAM, >SVGA card, etc), and I know I'm not missing _anything_ by sticking to >classic computers. Let's go through your points. > What I mean is that we must realize that there is only so much you can do with classic computers. after all, if they were the best than why we have faster and better? >'Web pages in full photo quality colour'. Well, I access the web to get >information, not look at pretty pictures. Most of the information I want >is _text_, or at least monochrome graphics (things like IC data sheets). >So I don't need 'photo quality colour'. And if I did, I could easily find well at the moment you dont need it, but its nice to know that you can see it when you need it. >a classic system that could display them. Evans and Sutherland, Grinnell, >Ramtek, I2S, PPL, etc all made high-res colour displays that make most >PC's look like toys. And you can pick one up second-hand for less than an >SVGA card + monitor. SVGA a toy? I used many an apple ][ + and C=64 with 80 col RGB monitors, and I can take only so much eyestrain. sharp graphics make your eyes feel good... also I would like to clarify somthing. I am not a billy gates follower. I despise his efforts and his software. and winsucks 95 is a laugh!!<G> but the issue is machines, and if you run Linux, as I do, that pentium will spring to life! so the PC is not the greatest machine, but if you run software that was properly written, (i.e. not from microsuck) you get fantastic results, that is why I like my commodore 64, it can do alot on 1 MHZ. >'Realistic games'. I don't play many games, but I'll agree that modern >games running on modern hardware do _look_ a lot more realistic than the >text+block graphics we had on home computers 15 years ago. The problem is >that IMHO (and YMMV) the old games are just more fun to play. That's a >personal judgement, though. I have an Atari 2600, and the best racing game is from Acivision called Enduro. >'PPP connections' Oh come on. I've run a PPP client on an _XT_. No problem >at all. I'll happily believe they're available for other old machines as >well. well we all believe, but sadly, this does not always work that way. I have an XT too, and yes you can load a packet driver, but then 640K is not big enough except to run telnet or ftp from. I use my XT as a file server... >'Realaudio' I assume that's some audio standard for modern machines. But Realaudio is a standard, but it is an INTERNET standard for sending LIVE SOUND from any web server. it has many uses, and the fun part of it is that I live in Indiana, and when I lived in St Petersburg FL, there was a good radio station there that I loved, and through Realaudio I can now listen to it here. and this is not just for PC's, it runs on MACs, UNIX Linux, and most Sun machines. >we had good quality audio on PDP11's (thanks to a little board from 3RCC) >in 1976. It's not exactly hard to add a DAC and a DMA engine or even a DSP >to a lot of classic computers (and classic computer != cheap home micro so >there's easily enough RAM space for a reasonable length sample). to me, a PDP11 is WORLDS apart from classic HOME computers, If I had the fortune of actually owing a PDP11, I would use it extensively..... :) also about enough ram space...NOT! I have some software for the C=64 that plays back digital sound files. with the stock 64K of ram, I can hold a 6 second clip. with the 1764 ram expansion with 512K of ram, I can hold a 60 second clip, but no longer than that. >What I'd be missing by going to a modern machine would be : >Documentation. Since I don't just run prepackaged software and plug in >prebuilt hardware, I need good technical manuals. They just don't exist I programmed in BASIC, and that is fun, and I tried 6502 assembler, and almost had a working interrupt handler going, but my brain fried, the opcodes are easy, but remembering memory addresses when deprived of caffeine is hard! the interrupt handler was for a terminal program that I was writing that utilized a 6551 UART in a commodore 64. I love hacking old hardware! and it also had interupt driven multitasking, as in this terminal, you can use the modem and play .sid music files at the same time! that was fun!! now I program in C, and if you do it right, you can make any machine dance to your beat. >for most modern machines >Repairability. I can fix classic computers with no problem at all. Just I have never had any hardware failures in ANY of my machines so far (knock on silicon), with the exception that I accidentally cooked a 6526. >try getting a custom chip for a PC motherboard. And don't tell me to >replace the motherboard - if the PC is a few years old I'd probably have >to replace the CPU and memory as well. that is just the ticket. A brand new 486 motherboard cost $90. with it you get real functionality. I know some who will pay twice that for a doorstop... actually, you can get a decent modern PC together just by scrounging computer shows and bargaining for parts. assembling a system from scratch with old parts is very fun and rewarding. and the reliablity rate for modern chips is very high. in fact the monitor or hard disk probably will die before the motherboard will. also I am speaking of those who NEVER touched anything new, and passing judgment. if you tried the new stuff, and hate it, that is fine, but I can't stand those who never tried it then saying it sux.

28 years, 9 months

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A little guidance - TI Xenix

by chemif＠mbox.queen.it

At 23:55 28/06/97 -0500, you wrote: > >WAHOO! I am in as Root! And I ain't gonna tell you what it was! > >Now, anyone know what the Streaming Tape Drive device is called? >I can boot with this (an old Adaptec SCSI board) installed. I have the TI 1300, and the device was called /dev/rct0 you should have the "help" command available, try also with ? and the topic. >I also have 2 CB811 cards but only one seems to come up with a light, >the other one just flashes? > *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. > (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. > >I can not boot with either or both of these installed. I haven't tried >real hard, maybe the console port changes with these in. But I also don't >hear all the beeps if these are in. I guess you are using built-in vga card and keyboard connected directly in the machine, instead of using "tty0a" port of the CB811 with a vt 100 as console. This, usually, make the difference. >Here's my last bootup record >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >Sat Jun 28 23:11:07 > *** CB811 -- (C) Copyright 1986 Computone Systems, Inc. > (C) Copyright 1987, 1988 Texas Instruments Inc. > >Can't find any CB811 boards >Texas Instruments print screen v1.01 >SPA initialization complete >Streaming cartridge tape v2.00[A] (int=3,dma=3,base=00000220) >Irootdev 1/40, pipedev 1/40, swapdev 1/41 >JKL0L1L2L3disk[W] drive 0: cyls = 918, heads = 15, secs = 17 >nswap = 5610, swplo = 0, Hz = 50 >L4maximum user process size = 8655k >L5MNOPmem: total = 8064k, reserved = 4k, kernel = 1088k, user = 6 >Sat Jun 28 23:11:08 >972k >kernel: drivers = 4k, 0 screens = 0k, 600 i/o bufs = 600k, msg bufs = 8k >QRSTUVWXYZdisk[W] drive 1: cyls = 918, heads = 15, secs = 17 >------------------------------------------------------------------------- >I have looked and can not find any docs on the CB811's or the Tape Drive >8-( 8-( 8-( > >Anybody know anything about either of these????? I will try to ask my old TEXAS suppliers and let you know Riccardo ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Riccardo Romagnoli,collector of:CLASSIC COMPUTERS,TELETYPE UNITS,PHONE AND PHONECARDS I-47100 Forli'/Emilia-Romagna/Food Valley/ITALY Pager:DTMF PHONES=+39/16888(hear msg.and BEEP then 5130274*YOUR TEL.No.* where*=asterisk key | help visit http://www.tim.it/tldrin_eg/tlde03.html

28 years, 9 months

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Error Condition Re: Re: 'Home' computer: Definition

by jpero＠mail.cgo.wave.ca

Subject: Home computer: Definition My opinions and to disgress; "Home Computer" term is invented by corporations to supposely help define their markets and totally miss it all the time because users needs is usually higher than their corporates' computers by factor of 1.5 to 2. At same time tries to pull off a coup on "home" users by selling stripped down with loads of cut corners and oft-nonstandard parts machine at horrible prices. Case in point: PCjr. PCjr and orignal 2 piece PS/1 (sold at 1000 bux cdn but you get no HD in it, introduced 1990's but users right away dumped them by pallets barely 2 years after. Yuk!) Side note: I traded few things to get this PS/1 2011 and used it for a while but sold it cheaply to a user who have modest needs than I. (for me, I can't manage well without hard drive attached even all the down to XT but not for apple II's their floppy drive is very fast enough to forgo hd, very impressed but at that time too expensive for my taste but now they are so cheap now.) So there was a bad taste to this name "home computers" in general. Similar types of computers did well in many areas but happened to lack important areas that killed it. Ironically, better to build DIY similar capablies 386, 80mb, 1mb, desktop/mono vga and still easily interchangable than that darned PS/1 2011 models. When I read about many machines and few "home computers" as called toys but I was mistaken when I saw and heard that "toy", boy, they're mistaken and I was taken too for a while! Indeed they were used for anything within their capablies so I accept anything that has CPU in it at same time useful and expandable should be decent computers, no more or less. :) C64, PET's, apples and such has just right stuff to keep users happy. In closing, corporations always underestimate "home" users. But now they are not pushing this word and crippled machines anymore, now selling them in general to any users execpt for corporations who needs turnkey system just to do very specific jobs like weak machine strictly for WP use, alphas for servers and heavy graphics, fast processor for programming but that is getting blurred that most users can afford them and can put them in their homes. Ok, now I could respond to yours... :) > I've seen a couple of posts in here that declare, in very firm terms > indeed, that machines like the MicroVAX and PDP's are not "home" computers. Suppose, Digital did not cared a whit and cut prices on that and we would be sure many would have one in home if they're small enough and easy on power requirements. Linux is there now and NT can be run on alphas but bit late and cost is fast appoaching to affordable levels where getting a pentium pro machine is not only option. > > For the sake of discussion in this list, and computer hobbyists in > general, I would like the world to know that I define 'home computer' as > any machine that you can: > > * Comfortably fit through your door... > > * Doesn't test the load limits of your target floor... > > * Power and run without tripping your main breaker... > > * (most importantly) Have fun restoring and working with... in your home! > > Which just goes to show that such terminology is so relative, there's > little point in debating it. Why waste the bandwidth over something as > trivial as a difference in wording? > > (No, I'm not trying to start a flamewar; I posted this because I'm > concerned that the current thread regarding 'home' computers may erupt into > one!) > > Caveat Emperor!

28 years, 9 months

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Interesting S100 boards

by dastar＠crl.com

I just discovered some *VERY* interesting S100 boards that I didn't realize I had in my box 'o S-100 boards. They seem to be some kind of Atari development/prototyping system. The boards are: 65xx Emulator, part no. 100-015-2, (c) 1983 Atari [this is the PCB only] Trace Memory Interface, part no, 100-003-2, (c) 1983 Atari 6502 Processor, part no. 100-003-2, has a 6502 and some other stuff, such as a clock speed DIP switch (1, 2, 4 MHZ settings), some RAM, a couple ribbon cable connectors. I have 2 of these boards but one is incomplete (does not have all the chips the other one does). All have the Atari name and logo and a copyright date of 1983. Also have these: the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] Any idea what this stuff is? Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass

28 years, 9 months

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PCjr Cartridges?

by thedm＠sunflower.com

I have, BASIC Lotus 1-2-3, {but can't get to work} Mouser MineShaft I'd like to have anything you can find. ---------- > From: thedm <thedm(a)sunflower.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: PCjr Cartridges? > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:08 PM > > Im interested in the PCjr carts. I have the basic one, but I can post a > list of what I have. > > ---------- > > From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn(a)crl.com> > > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > > Subject: PCjr Cartridges? > > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 8:27 PM > > > > Saw today a few cartridges which I'm guessing are PCjr carts. They said > > (among other things) "Cartridge BASIC". Anyone interested in them? They > > were (I think) a buck. > > > > They also had some misc Apple II cards (about $5 each, I think), some > Atari > > 800 ROM's (or RAM? I didn't look that closely). Lemme know if there's > any > > interest. > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > > sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." > > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

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HELP

by ynagasaw＠ic.sunysb.edu

---------- > ???o?l : Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers <gram(a)cnct.com> > ???? : Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > ???? : RE: which month? > ???M???? : 1997?N6??28?? 23:57 > > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Cord Coslor wrote: > > > What was the name of that book? Wasn't it something about a mouse? Like, > > To Catch a Mouse, Make a Noise Like A Cheese? > > > > On Sat, 28 Jun 1997, Matt Pritchard wrote: > > > > > I have a book about marketing, written by a Tandy VP which has a large > > > chapter on the birh of the TRS-80. He mentioned the day of the first > > > produced unit, (sept 15th I think) and game totals for the first months > > > or two (It seemed they only managed 3 computer a day for the first week > > > or two). > > _To Catch a Mouse, Make a Noise Like a Cheese_ was indeed the title, by > Lou Kornfeld, president of Radio Shack and originator of the "Flyer-Side > Chat" column that was a regular feature in Radio Shack retail flyers for > so many years. He was managing one of the (8 or 9) original Radio Shack > stores in Boston when Charles Tandy bought the company in about 1964 (and > proceeded to expand the chain by three orders of magnitude). I forget if > the book was released before or after he retired. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe

28 years, 9 months

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which month?

by MPritchard＠ensemble.net

I have a book about marketing, written by a Tandy VP which has a large chapter on the birh of the TRS-80. He mentioned the day of the first produced unit, (sept 15th I think) and game totals for the first months or two (It seemed they only managed 3 computer a day for the first week or two). -Mp > -----Original Message----- > From: bwit(a)pobox.com [SMTP:bwit@pobox.com] > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 11:51 AM > To: 'classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu' > Subject: RE: which month? > > > IIRC the TRS-80 was introduced in September 1977. > > ---------- > From: e.tedeschi > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 7:39 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: which month? > > I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction > of the > three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: > > a) the Apple II > b) the Tandy TRS-80 > c) the Commodore Pet > > I need them for a book on collecting home computers I am > researching > for. > > Thank you > > enrico > -- > ================================================================ > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > website <http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~e.tedeschi> > ================================================================ > visit Brighton: <http://www.brighton.co.uk/tourist/welcome.htm> > >

28 years, 9 months

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Interesting S100 boards

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

In message <Pine.SUN.3.91.970628111459.3115L-100000(a)crl4.crl.com> classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu writes: > Also have these: > > the Encryptor, Jones Futura Corporation, Model ENC 100-1 > California Computer Systems, Model 2832 [has this big, black 3"x3" square > and 3/8" thick block of resin on it, have no idea what it's hiding] I think this is what it says it is - a data encyption/decryption system. I have a thing called a 'modem maximiser' (a serial port data buffer box with a real time clock, parallel printer port, etc) that has an optional encryption unit. It too was a potted module. As I had a few spare modules I cut one apart and found it contained an 8032 (I think) microcontroller, RAM, a ROM (I must desolder that and examine it) and a TTL latch. Pretty much what you'd expect - a little microcontroller that reads in data, encrypts it, and sends it out again. > > Any idea what this stuff is? > > > Sam -tony

28 years, 9 months

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ROM Archive

by rcini＠msn.com

Sam: > 1. Record format: open (depending on software for EPROM programmer); S-records, Intel Hex, binary. >> I'm no expert at this so I'll defer. The various hex records are ASCII representations, so I figured that they can be transferred with no problem by e-mail. If we're doing ftp, it doesn't matter > 2. Submission & storage: UUEncoded image file e-mailed to "repository"; ROM/EPROM chips sent by snail mail and returned. All submissions should have as much info about the source computer as possible (board revisions, date of manufacture, etc.) >>Sounds good. The repository then is a "soft" repository of ROM images? Yes. This way, we can transfer it, or burn it. > 3. Requests & withdrawls: by e-mail to those with programmers; by mail for those supplying their own chips; e-mail request with no chip sent. >> I assumed since the images are merely files they could be downloaded by anyone requesting them. Is the repository also going to have physical EPROMS that someone can request? If so, why? THe only reason to have EPROMs available is for those who are incapable of burning EPROMs them selves. > 4. Cost: nominal (cost of postage and EPROM). >> Is the repository also going to be in the business of supplying people with pre-burnt EPROMS? If so then 3 makes more sense now. Sure, why not. I don't think that there will be a huge demand, so the repository will not keep pre-burned ROMs on hand. ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking

28 years, 9 months

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Computer Trivia Game

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 01:07 PM 6/27/97 -0400, you wrote: >> Anyone remember a trivial-pursuit-like Computer Trivia game? It was >I have computer-based trivia game (shareware, I think) on a CD-ROM. I could >dig it up, if anyone want it...it had pretty hard questions, which went >'way back to the dawn of time (you know, like the 1950's :> )) Actually, that does sound neat -- if you com across it, I'd love a copy. However, the game I was thinking of was one that had cards and (I think) a board, like trivpursuit. (I know my brother actually won a copy at the West Coast Computer Faire, but he's an a$$h@le and we aren't in contact.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

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Lisa's scores

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 09:38 PM 6/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >Unfortunately, it was a classic design at the time - a lot of people >thought it looked like a dumb terminal (VT100). An awful lot of people have painted pictures of pretty women... Still, there's only one Mona Lisa. Sometimes it just takes a slight modification to turn the ordinary into the extraordinary. I still say the Lisa gets an out-of-the-park home run on aesthetics. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

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Modern Apps on Old Machines

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

[...] > I love the internet, and I learned ALOT from it. sure a shell account with > lynx is nice, as I use it for fast FTP, but when I read about a PDP11, it is > nice to see a picture of one, rather just text. Alternatively I could just pick up one of about 30 PDP11 manuals I have lying about and not only see a picture of the outsides, but also see board layouts, schematics, timing charts, microcode flowcharts, and other useful info I've never found pictures of the outside of computers to be particularly interesting. The useful diagrams (see above) are just as useful on a 1-bit- per-pixel display. > >3. What other apps are there that are REALLY useful for home use that > >modern machines have and "home computers" don't? And is is really > > its not about apps, its about efficincy, and operator comfort. VGA or SVGA OK, I'm using my (much hacked) PC/AT (true-blue IBM, and just about on-topic here) at this moment. The display is a clone Hercules card driving that Zenith monitor with the 'interesting' PSU. After I fixed the PSU and tweaked the internal controls, I have an image _for text_ that's as sharp as any cheap SVGA monitor I've ever seen. No eyestrain at all. If you want colour, look at an old Barco (or Fimi, Philips, etc) monitor. Some of those are very well focused and converged. > is worth it becuse it prevents eyestrain, and you can use your system for > longer amounts of time. I used color TV's before when I got started, and > serious word processing was painful to the eyes. RGB's are better, but not RGB simply means that the video signal is sent along 3 separate cables for the 3 primary colours. Technically a VGA or SVGA monitor is an RGB monitor. > all in all, if the machine you use now does all what you want, thats great! > but the day WILL come where you just need to have a feature that you have In which case I'll do what I've always done in the past when this happens. I'll either find a classic machine that already has this feature or I'll build a bit of hardware to add it to whatever machine I feel like. > not got now. that is just the way the computing cookie crumbles. > -tony >

28 years, 9 months

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Video game machine/Computer With 6800 Processor

by bluesky6＠ix.netcom.com

Does anyone remember this machine : it's a video game console (like the atari VCS) but which could sit on a box which then converts it to a home computer. The machine ran on a 6800 and had built-in basic. It came out approx at the same time as the Atari 400/800 series (78-79?) I remember seeing an ad on it and the heading of the ad was "imagination machine". Ben

28 years, 9 months

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USING classic machines

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

In message <02440020302929(a)michianatoday.com> classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu writes: > At 08:59 AM 6/27/97 BST, you wrote: > >> I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a > >> modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full > >> photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am > > > >I have used 'modern' PC's (well, at least pentiums with 16 MBytes RAM, > >SVGA card, etc), and I know I'm not missing _anything_ by sticking to > >classic computers. Let's go through your points. > > > What I mean is that we must realize that there is only so much you can do > with classic computers. after all, if they were the best than why we have > faster and better? And there's only so much you can do with PC's :-) Seriously, It's obvious that the _real_ top end today is faster than the top end 10 years ago. It's also obvious that the 'home computer' of today (which is probably a pentium PC) is better than the home computer of 10 eyars ago (say a Commodore 64). But it's not at all obvious that the home computer of today is any better than a 10 year old top-end personal workstation or a minicomputer, or a number of other things. And those are turning up very cheaply if you know where to look. > > >'Web pages in full photo quality colour'. Well, I access the web to get > >information, not look at pretty pictures. Most of the information I want > >is _text_, or at least monochrome graphics (things like IC data sheets). > >So I don't need 'photo quality colour'. And if I did, I could easily find > > well at the moment you dont need it, but its nice to know that you can see > it when you need it. I don't necessarily buy hardware on the grounds that I _might_ need the facilities one day. As what I already have does all I need, then I see no reason to upgrade (downgrade?) And if I did ever need to display a 'photo-quality' image, I can find a few systems around here (all over 10 years old) that could do it trivially. > >a classic system that could display them. Evans and Sutherland, Grinnell, > >Ramtek, I2S, PPL, etc all made high-res colour displays that make most > >PC's look like toys. And you can pick one up second-hand for less than an > >SVGA card + monitor. > > SVGA a toy? I used many an apple ][ + and C=64 with 80 col RGB monitors, and Compared to the machines I've named, SVGA is a toy... > I can take only so much eyestrain. sharp graphics make your eyes feel good... This, alas shows how little you know about the state of graphics 10 years ago Give me a break. I am _NOT_ talking about home micros. I am talking about professional graphics displays with hardware anti-alliasing of displayed objects. I am talking about 512*512*30 bit images. I am talking about broadcast-quality TV images (if you should need to go to such a low scan rate). I am talking about 3D displays with LCD spectacles. Etc, Etc, Etc. I've had more than my fair share of eyestrain from impossible-to-converge SVGA monitors. I've battled with the service manuals for _hours_ on some of them and not been able to get the convergence right. I'm then pleased that Barco, Fimi, Sony (the older ones at least), Philips, Moniterm, KNE, etc, etc, etc did make decent, easy-to-set-up monitors 10 years ago or more. [...] > >we had good quality audio on PDP11's (thanks to a little board from 3RCC) > >in 1976. It's not exactly hard to add a DAC and a DMA engine or even a DSP > >to a lot of classic computers (and classic computer != cheap home micro so > >there's easily enough RAM space for a reasonable length sample). > > to me, a PDP11 is WORLDS apart from classic HOME computers, If I had the > fortune of actually owing a PDP11, I would use it extensively..... :) AFAIK, this is a classic computers list, and not a classic home computers list Anyway the PDP11 is a home computer now. I know dozens of people who run one or more at home. I've payed a lot less for any of my PDP11's that you'd pay for a pentium motherboard + CPU. That's complete PDP11's with disks, realtime I/O, terminals, graphics options, SCSI interfaces, etc, etc, etc. > >for most modern machines > >Repairability. I can fix classic computers with no problem at all. Just > I have never had any hardware failures in ANY of my machines so far (knock > on silicon), with the exception that I accidentally cooked a 6526. > Maybe I've been unlucky, but I have had hardware failures. > >try getting a custom chip for a PC motherboard. And don't tell me to > >replace the motherboard - if the PC is a few years old I'd probably have > >to replace the CPU and memory as well. > > that is just the ticket. A brand new 486 motherboard cost $90. with it you > get real functionality. Wait a second. ISA graphics cards are already getting hard to find. So, presumably, if I have a not-too-old PC with an ISA graphics card and some custom chip dies, I have to buy a PCI graphics card, a new motherboard, a new processor, and either new memory or some SIMM converters. No thanks - I'll stick to my classics where repairing consists of picking up the service manual, finding the dead chip in about 10 minutes, and replacing it with one >from either my junk box of the local electronics shop. > actually, you can get a decent modern PC together just by scrounging > computer shows and bargaining for parts. assembling a system from scratch > with old parts is very fun and rewarding. and the reliablity rate for modern > chips is very high. in fact the monitor or hard disk probably will die I've had modern custom chips fail for 'no good reason'. > before the motherboard will. Monitors can often be repaired for a lot less than the cost of a new one. Yes, the motherboard will probably outlast the hard disk, but that's (IMHO) because modern hard disks are darn unreliable (I've had several die on me, and without a clean room there's not a lot I can do). That doesn't mean the motherboard won't fail, though. -tony

28 years, 9 months

1
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USING classic machines

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

> BUT- > viewing a photo on a CRT in 16 million colors is still 100% better than > having only 16 colors...<G> There was a thing that came out in 1979/1980 called an I2S model 70 image processor. It used (in at least one configuration) _30_ bits per pixel, although only at a resolution of 512*512 pixels. If you're only used to home micros I can understand why you think old machines can't display 'photo-quality' images, but there were plenty of larger machines that are now turning up second-hand at prices that collectors can afford that have significant graphics abilities. -tony > >

28 years, 9 months

1
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Video game machine/Computer With 6800 Processor

by manney＠nwohio.com

> It came out approx at the same time as the Atari 400/800 series > (78-79?) > > I remember seeing an ad on it and the heading of the ad was > "imagination machine". Mattel?

28 years, 9 months

2
1
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Domestic Commercial Computing Power

by ccm＠sentex.net

Great idea to include peripherals. Never thought of that. I would rather you see a sample of the book before making a purchase decision. Please reply with your postal address and I send a few pages - don't have scanned copies for faxing or emailing. Kevin Stumpf

28 years, 9 months

1
0
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Historical Research

by ccm＠sentex.net

Nope no serial number info. Thanks for the encouragement about the CD version. Kevin Stumpf

28 years, 9 months

1
0
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USING classic machines

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> Here's an interesting idea, now that mini Linux seems to be up and > running, there appears to be a good code base for porting it over to othe > old 8 bit and 16 bit chips. The TI-99/4a, RS COCO, PDP-11, and old S-100 > based z80 (with MMU) boxes appear to be good candidates. Yes... there is UZI unix was on the z80 already so it's doable. > Yes yes yes yes. SVGA is a *TOY* compared to what was available > to those with million dollar budgets 20 years ago. The old hardware ran > slower in clock speed but was most certainly capable of *extream* high By 1986 1280x1024 color was about $25k and small (allowing for the 19" monitor). MicrovaxII/gpx... now you can find them in dumpsters. > PDP-11 hardware is still widely available. You could build > youself a functinal Qbus LSI-11/73 or 83 for less than $500 easy. Most o > this hardware is sitting in old factories and still in production. There > are many hardware outlets out there such as ELI in cambridge MA, which At $500 I'd have a killer PDP11. Most of mine are scrap/salvage or trades. I'm letting a PDP11/23b go for very little as I have one and they are common enough and powerful enough to run multiuser OS or one of the unixes out there. > ;-) You might also want to think of a decent used microVAX.... wonderful > machine based on the same Qbus. I got a working vs2000 from someone elses dumpster trip so they are common and they can do eithernet, PPP, 1280x1024 graphics (color was an option), 6-16mb of ram in a 1cuft box witha 160w powersupply (small PC!). The real trick is getting a disk (rd54 was the largest supported at 150mb) as SCSI is there but not bootable other than DEC tk50 tape. The other problem is an OS though DEC has made VMS6.1 available with a free license, compared to VMS DOS is a toy! There are people doing a netBSD for it as well. Other boxsized vaxen are 3100 and friends most being very high performance (2.5-3VUP, a 780=1VUP). larger MicrovaxII configs are common and generally free to cheap and most of the same thing apply save for bigger. Even the BA123 boxed VAXen are under 500w in practice, since most pcs are in the 230-270 watt range it's not as bad as it would seem. Other small vaxen in the "Sbox" incluude the 3400, 3500. they are faster and still pre-1990.. The older Vax 780/1/2/5 systems are three good sized racks plus and serious power. The later smaller (slower) 730s are one to two short (40") racks and under 1000w for mall configs (save 1 or 2 ra80/81 disks). RA81 is 200mb IMS. The next faster was the 750 and that can also run on household power but, just barely. Allison

28 years, 9 months

1
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Panasonic Handhelds

by dastar＠crl.com

PANASONIC HANDHELD UPDATE: This is the latest message from Mike who has the hundreds of Panasonic HandHeld computers. In case its not obvious what's going on, I put in an offer of $10 each for 50, $9 each for 100, $8 each for 150, etc. I don't have $2000 lying around with which to buy them all up. I have a plan, but first read what Mike had to say: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 10:39:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikeooo1(a)aol.com To: dastar(a)crl.com Subject: Re: EPROM Burners re: Classic Computers Dear Sam, I believe the total number of HHC's available will be about 400.Based on your offer I assume that for 150 of the units you would be willing to pay at the rate of $10 for the first 50,$9 for the next 50, $8 for the next 50 and $7 for the next 50 whcih would come to $1700 for 200 units.Would you be interested in 300 units for $2000 even?To make the offer even sweeter I'll throw in the memory expander trays with each unit.The cost for each tray alone was well over $100 when they were purchased,as well as a quantity of the MCM 68674 8K eprom chips that the programs were written on. As always Best Regards, Mike ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ END FORWARD So here's my plan...anyone and everyone who is interested, reply to ME (do not reply to classiccmp! People will hate you and want to drown your pets!) telling me how many you want. Do this soon. I will save all of your e-mails and then at the end of say, 10 days I will tally up the total and make Mike an offer. So again... Reply to ME only (dastar(a)crl.com) Tell me HOW MANY of the Panasonic HandHeld Computers you want. Do it SOON. You have about 10 days. Price will be NO MORE THAN $10 EACH. I'll get back to everyone in 10 days or so. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass

28 years, 9 months

1
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DOS 2.11 software (fwd)

by more＠camlaw.rutgers.edu

OK guys, here is a request I got, maybe someone can help this poor guy! Thanks, Les ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 28 Jun 1997 08:26:19 -0400 (EDT) From: KenpoKidJB(a)aol.com To: more(a)camlaw.Rutgers.EDU Subject: software hey, i went to your web site, but didn't find what i wanted. i'm looking for dos 2.11 programs that will run off of a 3.5" floppy. most specifically, i'm especially looking for games. any kind will do, but even more specifically, i'm looking for text driven adventure games, as my kaypro 2000 LCD screen doesn't do very well with graphics!! so, let me know what you can do for me.. i really appreciate it. Jeremiah

28 years, 9 months

1
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which month?

by e.tedeschi＠ndirect.co.uk

I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction of the three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: a) the Apple II b) the Tandy TRS-80 c) the Commodore Pet I need them for a book on collecting home computers I am researching for. Thank you enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website <http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~e.tedeschi> ================================================================ visit Brighton: <http://www.brighton.co.uk/tourist/welcome.htm>

28 years, 9 months

5
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Computer Usage & Commodore internet...

by foxnhare＠goldrush.com

Well some of my collection gets a good workout. The most notable is the Commodore 64 running my BBS, the Silicon Realms, which has been on-line for just over 10 years using 64s (this is the second 64, before it the BBS was running on my then only 64 and my 128 for a while, all the original computers still work.) I would say that this BBS is probably one of the most stable low-end BBSs it can run litterally for weeks (it is networked to other boards, mind you) without nary a crash. Nowadays I can bump my commie BBS to 14.4k and have a 20mghz accelerator to keep up with the big bards, but alot of that stuff isn't considered classic yet... Across the room (more like spin around in the chair) is the 128, which I still use to program stuff on as well as create disks for people and stuff, lately it has seen increased use. A PET and a couple 64s made it out of storage for my last BBS gathering and helped entertain attendees. (Many of the IBM gamers fondly remembered and played on the 64s for a while.) I think I'll bring more classics to future ones, (I hope to have asteroids for the Atari by then, it has a 4-player game option). ------------ Currently most of the Commodore 64/128 users on the internet are using terminals and connecting via provider's shell-accounts. There is a version of SLIP for the Commodore and also a HTML viewer (off-line from what I gather), but more and more word on bigger and better things coming "real soon now". The Wave, a terminal for the GEOS environment is supposed to have text HTML viewing capabilities, graphics is a pretty big hurdle for our little machines, it's not in the size per se (images can be scaled down), but in the volume of processing these huge image files will require, many of which are 2 to 5 times our computer's memory! But that never stopped the determined hacker. Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare/ Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

28 years, 9 months

1
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weekend additions

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> a digital microvax ][ I assume you man a MicroVAXII, only apple used the ][. > it's big. i thought a ps2 model 80 was big, but this eclipses it. not test > yet, but i need info on what it is, what it did, and is it worth keeping? Ba23, ba123 or ba213 box? There were also the 1cuft vaxen (vs2000). IF you think the vax was big the 21" color monitor dwarfed it! > being used to the pc world i didnt see monitor/keyb connections. should i > an ascii terminal to conenct to it to use it? it has a door on the front w > something behind it (tape?) but it's locked down. if anyone can point me t > faq id be grateful. Around back of the unit. Depending on version it was terminal (vt100/220/320...) or vr290/320 monitor mouse and keyboard. Allison

28 years, 9 months

1
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which month?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> I have a book about marketing, written by a Tandy VP which has a large > chapter on the birh of the TRS-80. He mentioned the day of the first > produced unit, (sept 15th I think) and game totals for the first months > or two (It seemed they only managed 3 computer a day for the first week > or two). The august/september was the dates!. Also the first few months were a learning experience for TANDY ftworth as they didn't know how to properly handle mos devices, inline QC and do testing non destructively. The early yeilds were horrendously low! The dry air and mishandling ment most of the mos and much ttl were no good by time the were in the board or were killed on the board. I vaguly remember saying when I saw the way things were beign done "you have got to be kidding!" and several people stated investigating ESD procedure and manufacturing QC. Allison

28 years, 9 months

1
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USING classic machines

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> A microVAX or any of the VAXEN is NOT a home computer. I know that PC's > were not the first ones to do it and never claimed it, and what I am talki Define home computer? In the early days of PCs(xt class) pro350s, PDP11 with color graphics and hard disk. These were single user multitasking systems in the same price range asna loaded xt. > about is the person who still uses his apple ][, and has never touched > anything else, saying everything else is junk. sure a Mini workstation ca > do it, no question about it, but I *KNOW* that a kaypro, apple ][+ C=64, > coleco ADAM, 8 bit Ataris and other HOME computers of that era CAN'T handl Thein lies my point. These were the low end of the spectrum, low cost and performance at the low end of the spectrum for what the cpu used could do. Though the apple was one of the better ones. Really, an ADAM and interestig machine uses a z80 it was slow compared to many due to how it was implemented. Same for many others. C64s/128 are fast machines... throttled to slow by a slow serial link to the disk. Every one of those machines were interesting but crippled perfomance wise. Granted often it was done for cost reasons. Even the kaypro, while fairly fast has the slowest screen on the planet. I say that lovingly as I have one but while it can transfer files at 9600 if it writes to screen 2400 may be too fast. This is not an inditement of their collectability or other interesting ideas they brought forward. It is a cold assessment of their performance when measured against their respective CPU standards (1980 z80-4mhz, 6502-2mhz, 6800-2mhz, 6809-2mhz, ti9900-3.3mhz, 8086/8-5mhz...) and what they could do when run at that performance level. So when you say the ti99/4a was to slow to do real IP or multiuser(acceptably) it was the TI99/4a not the 9900 cpu or other 9900 designs which could. Allison

28 years, 9 months

1
0
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Modern Apps on Old Machines

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> lynx is nice, as I use it for fast FTP, but when I read about a PDP11, it > nice to see a picture of one, rather just text. Most people were running altairs and the like in 78... I was a friend started with one in '76. But in 78 he decided a H-11 bas a better deal. H-11 was a DEC LSI-11 cpu card with heathkit made boards around them that were DEC look alikes and a OS that was RT-11 look alike. All of a sudden minies weren't too big or out of range. > everyone forgets is that having limited memory is a pain, > and TCP/IP alone uses 64K in ONE SOCKET ALONE as a buffer. That was true even of most PDP-11s. What the -11 (most minies) had were more efficient IO even if it was floppies. > You have a good point there, and it would work sorta, but patience runs th > after awhile, as decoding images at 1 MHZ does take 1 min, times that wit > 10 or so inlines you will find at every web page, and waiting 10 mins for This is a problem for me with the 486dx/50 and 33.6 modem. Most fo the images unless compressed really do not require much processing (GIFs). > its not about apps, its about efficincy, and operator comfort. VGA or SVG > is worth it becuse it prevents eyestrain, and you can use your system for > longer amounts of time. I used color TV's before when I got started, and > serious word processing was painful to the eyes. RGB's are better, but no I've been using h-19s, vt100s for years to get past the TV displays that generally are low res. > by much. also its about speed. The ability to cut and paste is underrated > as in serious work, it saves gobs of time. I love command line interfaces I could cut and past using editors for cp/m back in '80. Cut and past is an editing feature not a system capability. PCs running windows make it latent on the screen all of the time, thats the difference. When some one said a home machine in say...'80 it was appleII, trs80, S100 or SS50(6800/6809). At that time people that had PDP-8s, -11s, DG novas were scarce. By '86 most of the minies were old and getting accessable cheap and not all were large either!. Move to 1990, people are collecting vaxes (the 780 was new in '78) as most of the 7xx series systems were going to junk. the 730s/750s though slow were small enough to consider for a home. What's forgotten is by 1990 a lot of stuff was over 5-10 years old. Now in 1997, microvaxes (ca 1986-7) are for dumpster diving and these little gems are not slow nor are they under powered and they had VGA or better capabilities and they are collectable. Now what you said is true of many systems. I'd never try to run a modem program on my TI99 at faster than 1200 as it will not keep up. Then again it was by the standards of the time very very slow! It was neat. My systems for the late '70s were s100 for flexibility and speed. I found myself looking at canned systems like TRS80, apple and felt most fo the time like I was running a fuel dragster compared to that. But I was running networks and the like in '81 because I knew of them and could design my own to save a buck (they existed for home computers but were expensive). I got my first PDP-11 in '83 for FREE because the lsi-11 boards and memory were old! It was my first save! The -11 introduced me to small minies, and big performance. Some required a scope and series debugging to get them going but the cost offset that (free). It would be years (1991) before PCs would eclipse the power of the various PDP-11s (many of the 11/23 design) and the software maturity behind it. Many computer consumers knew they wanted performance. It was minies where more could be found. I'd point out that many of the minies were disguised. Alpha Microsystems(ca 1977) had the same chip set as the LSI-11 with a slightly different instruction set modification and was s100, still the same capability. There was the Western Digital Pascal Microengine, Marinechip (PDP-11 in s100), pdt-11/150, Pro350 to name a few that were either pre-pc or on the PC introduction cusp.While home computing was commodores and apples and trs80 they were the appliance machines for many. There was always a core of those that felt they were nice and had good ideas but, they wanted more. Allison

28 years, 9 months

1
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Archiving & other news

by kyrrin＠wizards.net

Well, I see some rumblings in the group about archiving (among other things) EPROMs and other such chips. I think it's a great idea! I will assist as much as I can, considering that I certainly have the equipment for it (Data I/O UniSite, current rev). I can read or program just about anything that comes in a DIP package that is programmable to begin with (including PALs if the security fuse isn't blown). In other news... A Scrounging I Will Go! I'm off to the Bay Area as of Saturday next week (the 5th) for a major see-what's-changed trip, to say nothing of hitting two swap meets (Livermore and Foothill) and seeing what other kinds of trouble I can get into. Sam, watch for an E-mail. I'd like to get in touch with you when I hit the area. For those who have visited my web page, I'll be giving the scrounging section a major facelift and update after I get back. Caveat Emperor! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Sysop, The Dragon's Cave BBS (Fidonet 1:343/272) (Hamateur: WD6EOS) (E-mail: kyrrin(a)wizards.net) http://www.wizards.net/technoid "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

28 years, 9 months

2
1
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weekend additions

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

i need some help on what i found this weekend. a trs80 model III 48k. came with trsdos disk, but i havent tested it yet. can anyone point to a source of software. now i need a model ][ to fill in the blanks! a digital microvax ][ it's big. i thought a ps2 model 80 was big, but this eclipses it. not tested yet, but i need info on what it is, what it did, and is it worth keeping? being used to the pc world i didnt see monitor/keyb connections. should i get an ascii terminal to conenct to it to use it? it has a door on the front with something behind it (tape?) but it's locked down. if anyone can point me to a faq id be grateful. there was plenty of xt's and the old pc peripheral expansion unit i might get also. total cost <$20. david

28 years, 9 months

1
0
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Source for Syquest 44mb cartridges.

by more＠camlaw.rutgers.edu

Recently I got a SyQuest SQ555 Removable drive (44mb/SCSI) for free. I have been looking for cartridges that fir this drive but so far no luck. (Well, I did find one place that still sold them but they wanted $40 a piece for 'em). If anyone knows of a cheap(er) place to get these babies, please let me know! Thanks, les more(a)crazy.rutgers.edu

28 years, 9 months

1
0
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USING classic machines

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> going for a while. I don't know that Dr. Shoppa using all that classic > DEC machinery at his Canadian university qualifies as doing "ordinary hom > applications", although I'm delighted to hear that the old junk is still > providing useful service (heck, at Hughes here, we have PDP-11s running I have six all operational two get regular use. BEsides my CP/M systems >from before the flood. > >modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in fu > >photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I a Well, much of this I used to do back around '85 using microvax in color with a 1280x1024 19" screen! Asa to much of the other stuff it's all hardware much of which saw it origins on s100, Q and other busses. Allison

28 years, 9 months

3
2
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USING classic machines

by cerebral＠michianatoday.com

At 12:00 AM 6/28/97 -0400, you wrote: > >> also about enough ram space...NOT! >> I have some software for the C=64 that plays back digital sound files. wit >> the stock 64K of ram, I can hold a 6 second clip. with the 1764 ram >> expansion with 512K of ram, I can hold a 60 second clip, but no longer tha > >Funny my s100 crate can playback easily 8mb and using a modified os 32mb >of sound. In this case a well designed hard disk system (circa 1982) >easily keeps up without eating ram. On a z80 at 4mhz. Oh, the disk size >was limited by budget! Even in 1982 hard disks were plenty fast enough to >support fast DACs or audio. > >Allison That is because the software you run want work well enough at 1 MHZ... and if you want to edit, that is where the heap requirement goes up.

28 years, 9 months

1
0
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USING classic machines

by cerebral＠michianatoday.com

At 06:20 PM 6/27/97 -0400, you wrote: > >Well, much of this I used to do back around '85 using microvax in color with ^^^^^^^ >a 1280x1024 19" screen! Asa to much of the other stuff it's all hardware >much of which saw it origins on s100, Q and other busses. > >Allison A microVAX or any of the VAXEN is NOT a home computer. I know that PC's were not the first ones to do it and never claimed it, and what I am talking about is the person who still uses his apple ][, and has never touched anything else, saying everything else is junk. sure a Mini workstation can do it, no question about it, but I *KNOW* that a kaypro, apple ][+ C=64, coleco ADAM, 8 bit Ataris and other HOME computers of that era CAN'T handle it.

28 years, 9 months

1
0
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Modern Apps on Old Machines

by cerebral＠michianatoday.com

At 02:52 PM 6/27/97 -0700, you wrote: >A different thought - I don't really buy the argument for owning a modern >machine for the purposes of "better" games. But the Web browser thing is >slightly different, being a VERY powerful and useful communication method. I agree with you here, and games are fun, but that depends on what you like. I love the internet, and I learned ALOT from it. sure a shell account with lynx is nice, as I use it for fast FTP, but when I read about a PDP11, it is nice to see a picture of one, rather just text. > >I have heard that the C64 and Atari 8-bit machines now have graphical Web >browsers and PPP clients running on them. The TI community is working on >a TCP/IP system, but we were debating the possibility of a Web browser. I have dreamed of writing one, and I don't know if someone else has done it, and if they did, I would grab a copy right away. The main problem that everyone forgets is that having limited memory is a pain, and TCP/IP alone uses 64K in ONE SOCKET ALONE as a buffer. >The argument I and others made in its defense was, granted the stock >hardware is incapable of SVGA-grade graphical displays, with appropriate >decoding, you can get "close" (with sufficient processing time), and if >you have to "scroll" around to see the entire page, so what? You have a good point there, and it would work sorta, but patience runs thin after awhile, as decoding images at 1 MHZ does take 1 min, times that with 10 or so inlines you will find at every web page, and waiting 10 mins for a page to load would make it a fustrating experiance. heck, on days where there is severe net lag (especially on fridays), it takes 10 mins for the data to arrive even for fast machines! <G> It is a cool idea though, and it would be interesting to see if this can be pulled off. >1. Am I correct in what I have heard of the C64 and Atari 8-bitters? > >2. Is this a reasonable argument for "home computers" being fit out for >browsing? Or is it silly when $2000 (maybe even below $1000) can get you >a Web-capable peecee? You dont have to spend this much to have a fast PC (or MAC), all you need is to hunt around... AND NEVER BUY RETAIL SYSTEMS!!! like packard smell..... > >3. What other apps are there that are REALLY useful for home use that >modern machines have and "home computers" don't? And is is really its not about apps, its about efficincy, and operator comfort. VGA or SVGA is worth it becuse it prevents eyestrain, and you can use your system for longer amounts of time. I used color TV's before when I got started, and serious word processing was painful to the eyes. RGB's are better, but not by much. also its about speed. The ability to cut and paste is underrated, as in serious work, it saves gobs of time. I love command line interfaces, as well as GUI's, but typing long commandlines to just load a directory, its nice just to be able to type LS -l and get the same result. and if you think about it, these nice classic machines we love EVOLVED to be the modern ones we got now, and I understand the resentment of microsnot, as I hate them too, but I can't understand the resentment of the modern machines. Yes some say they cost too much, but that can be solved. I see people go gaga over a PCjr, and while that make a nice collectors item, it is the least usefull home computer EVER made. and yes most apps used for home perposes dont need the latest and greatest, however, a modern machine is far more veratle in the power department, and the classics are more versatle in the hardware department. >impossible to do these tasks on "home computers"? Is it worth the time >and effort (even out of love) to write the software, or even create the >new peripherals, to enable the old iron to do the job? > It is worth the time to develop the software when you need it only if the results are the same if you used somthing already out there on a capable machine. I wrote MANY small utilitys for the Commodore, simply because they did not exist in my area. and while it is fun to do it out of love, it does get tiring reinventing the wheel all the time. more time went into the devleopment than in actual use when it was done. I did write a budget/checkbook balancing program in BASIC, used it a few times, the it got bit rot, because i never had any money left to manage :) all in all, if the machine you use now does all what you want, thats great! but the day WILL come where you just need to have a feature that you have not got now. that is just the way the computing cookie crumbles.

28 years, 9 months

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BASF Extra 120 tape carthridges

by dastar＠crl.com

Can anyone use a mess of BASF Extra 120 (ultra stabilized) tape carthridges? I don't know much more about them beyond what is written on them. We get these at work every week and my accountant just tosses them because she has no use for them (we get records on them from PacBell for accounting stuff). I could collect these and send them off to someone every month if they want to pay for shipping in advance. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass

28 years, 9 months

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which month?

by jimw＠agora.rdrop.com

At 01:25 PM 6/27/97 -0600, you wrote: >On Fri, 27 Jun 1997, e.tedeschi wrote: > >>I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction of the >>three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: > >>a) the Apple II > >Okay, all sources for the Apple II seem to agree that it was introduced in >April, but what date? From memory I would've said April 17th. I decided >to confirm this with a quick web search and came up with two dates! > >http://www.research.apple.com/extras/history/ > >puts the date at April 20, 1977 while > >http://www.kelleyad.com/histry.htm > >puts the date at April 17, 1977. Both of these sources have the >credentials to be accurate. Which date was it? Surely someone here >knows. Well... will have to find the program to check the dates, but the Apple II was *introduced* at the opening day of the First West Coast Computer Faire in San Francisco. (I was there - Jim Warren had some *great* stories around that event!) It created the biggest buzz at the show as I recall... And then there was that joke that Woz played on Jobs and all of the Altair fans... (but I'll get to that later) -jim --- jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174

28 years, 9 months

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USING classic machines

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> also about enough ram space...NOT! > I have some software for the C=64 that plays back digital sound files. wit > the stock 64K of ram, I can hold a 6 second clip. with the 1764 ram > expansion with 512K of ram, I can hold a 60 second clip, but no longer tha Funny my s100 crate can playback easily 8mb and using a modified os 32mb of sound. In this case a well designed hard disk system (circa 1982) easily keeps up without eating ram. On a z80 at 4mhz. Oh, the disk size was limited by budget! Even in 1982 hard disks were plenty fast enough to support fast DACs or audio. Allison

28 years, 9 months

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USING classic machines

by cerebral＠michianatoday.com

At 07:22 AM 6/27/97 -0800, you wrote: >> > modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full > ^^^^ >> > photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am > ^^^^^ > > >Really? Full photo quality? My early 1940's Speed Graphic makes >4" x 5" (100mm x 125mm) negatives with roughly 160 dpmm resolution. >(Admittedly, with a lens that's stopped down considerably...) >That's roughly 16000 x 20000 pixels, using technology that's over >50 years old. SuperVGA and CRT's have a long, long, way to go before >they catch up. > >Tim. (shoppa(a)triumf.ca) > you are technically correct, BUT- viewing a photo on a CRT in 16 million colors is still 100% better than having only 16 colors...<G>

28 years, 9 months

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Xerox (RE: Lisa's scores)

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

The first GUI system was the Xerox Alto. It was desk-sized. The commercial model was the Xerox Star, which was somewhat smaller (c.1977) The Xerox Alto appears to have introduced: - Bitmapped displays - BitBLT raster operations - Cursor changes to show system mode - GUI menus and Popup menus - Overlapped windows - Tiled windows - Scroll bars - Push buttons, radio buttons, check boxes - Dialog boxes - Multiple fonts and styles visible in text - Cut/Copy/Paste with a mouse The Lisa UI appears to have introduced: - Pull-down menus - Menu bars - Disabling (graying) of menu items - Command-key shortcust for menu items - Check marks on menu items The book "Fumbling the Future: How Xerox Invented, Then Ignored, the First Personal Computer" by Douglas Smith and Robert Alexander, states that Xerox voluntarily offered the UI elements to Steve Jobs. Apple does not appear to have "stolen" the ideas. Kai > ---------- > From: Daniel A. Seagraves > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 2:11 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: Lisa's scores > > On Thu, 26 Jun 1997 starling(a)umr.edu wrote: > > > > Actually, Xerox had a working GUI-based system (the name eludes me > at the > > > moment) well before the LISA, which is where Jobs got his > inspiration > > Was it Smalltalk? > I got a picture of that, somewhere... >

28 years, 9 months

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Modern Apps on Old Machines

by manney＠nwohio.com

Let's not forget that old machines were, in their day, designed to be used by *mainstream* users. So, let's look at the people who would -- nowadays -- use old machines. 1) Newbies/inexperienced users. Are these people willing to put up inadequate documentation, unbelievably klunky software with *no* tech support? No -- no more than they were willing to when the machines were new. 2) Power users? most would laugh at the idea of using a "relic". They would be no more caught dead with one than a photographic toy-boy would with a point-and-shoot camera (altho' many pros, with nothing to prove, use P&S's as cheap backup cameras. Don't tell anyone <g>) 3) People who love it? few and far between. Sure, you can do e-mail, use lynx to check out the web on an XT (I cheat...I use a 386SX lap top with a 2400 baud modem). Using an old machine to perform routine tasks -- tasks for which the machines were originally designed and sold -- in no way ennobles the person who does so...it's just a hobby, rife with the same inconveniences that plague any undertaking. Most people have some sort of hobby, (altho' usually not as technical) and go through the same inconveniences we do, working with their love. I do a fair amount of photographic retouching on my P-133. I need large amounts of disk space (up to 30 MB per), memory, processing speed -- otherwise, I just can't do it. (I can't just go have a cup of coffee.) I do publication and page layout, and WSYWIG is an enormous convenience. (sure, LaTeX on the VAX gives me nice output. Give me Microsoft Publisher to get work done a lot faster...I have to feed my family.) As an engineer, I used to do finite element analysis on rubber products. Running on a 486-50 (the fastest available at the time) a single job would run overnight. Try *that* on a PDP-11! The point? (He finally gets to one!)Many tasks can be accomplished easily on an XT running 1-2-3 or QEDIT -- sure. But, many jobs are now possible to do on a garden-variety PC (mac) which were impossible to perform on older machines.

28 years, 9 months

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Modern Apps on Old Machines

by allisonp＠world.std.com

Many of the midrange minies like the PDP-11, perq, and a host of others can and did do much of the web thing. much of the old machines don't do that was not a matter of speed or memory but software conceived to do that. is it practical not finance wise the user population is too small and would not pay much but the hardware can make a good account of itself. Keep in mind most of the PCs have only gotten to or exceeded the minicomputer performance level say in the last 7 years maybe less. Before then people used all manner of things to accomplish was PCs are commonly used for. Allison

28 years, 9 months

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Modern Apps on Old Machines

by dlormand＠aztec.asu.edu

>I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a >modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full >photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am >not a member of the dark force, I just have a multitude of machines, and I >have EXPERIANCED running them, from an apple ][ +, C=64, IBM XT, and a 586-133. >we must have an open mind about this, as there are some who still never ran >anything NEW, and pass judgment about how bad a machine is when they have >never used one. A different thought - I don't really buy the argument for owning a modern machine for the purposes of "better" games. But the Web browser thing is slightly different, being a VERY powerful and useful communication method. I have heard that the C64 and Atari 8-bit machines now have graphical Web browsers and PPP clients running on them. The TI community is working on a TCP/IP system, but we were debating the possibility of a Web browser. The argument I and others made in its defense was, granted the stock hardware is incapable of SVGA-grade graphical displays, with appropriate decoding, you can get "close" (with sufficient processing time), and if you have to "scroll" around to see the entire page, so what? 1. Am I correct in what I have heard of the C64 and Atari 8-bitters? 2. Is this a reasonable argument for "home computers" being fit out for browsing? Or is it silly when $2000 (maybe even below $1000) can get you a Web-capable peecee? 3. What other apps are there that are REALLY useful for home use that modern machines have and "home computers" don't? And is is really impossible to do these tasks on "home computers"? Is it worth the time and effort (even out of love) to write the software, or even create the new peripherals, to enable the old iron to do the job? -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand(a)aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! *

28 years, 9 months

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USING classic machines

by dlormand＠aztec.asu.edu

I am glad to hear that others, like myself, commonly use a "non-mainstream" machine for ordinary home applications. I would like to keep this discussion going for a while. I don't know that Dr. Shoppa using all that classic DEC machinery at his Canadian university qualifies as doing "ordinary home applications", although I'm delighted to hear that the old junk is still providing useful service (heck, at Hughes here, we have PDP-11s running AMRAAM test equipment, and HP-1000s running Tomahawk test equipment). >But it depends upon what you are doing. While in theory you could >calculate e to 100,000 digits using an Apple ][, it might take upwards of a >week for the results, and you couldn't use the computer in the meantime, >whereas on modern machines, 100,000 digits could be generated in under an >hour, and with the right OS, you could still work on other things [1]. I would also hesitate to say that calculating e to 100,000th digits is an ordinary household task. As is graphics arts, desktop publishing, audio mixing, and a lot of other things that some people do in their homes for fun or profit. Obviously you need the tools for the job. But nearly EVERYTHING you do for common home jobs can be done on the "home computers" that were sold for the purpose nearly 20 years ago. >I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a >modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full >photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am >not a member of the dark force, I just have a multitude of machines, and I >have EXPERIANCED running them, from an apple ][ +, C=64, IBM XT, and a 586-133. >we must have an open mind about this, as there are some who still never ran >anything NEW, and pass judgment about how bad a machine is when they have >never used one. I really have no dispute with people with modern machines. [Especially Macs or BeOS machines, for instance; peecees to me are primarily means for the Microsoft empire to attain world domination.] My beef is: (a) When these people look down on you for sticking with your "toy" computer when theirs is obviously so much more superior to yours, (b) People mislead by the above people into thinking that they MUST have a Pentium-class peecee to balance their checkbooks on, (c) User/owners of "non-mainstream" machines dumping them when they swallow the propaganda that they MUST have a peecee or they will be hopelessly left behind. The obvious reason the collectors in this List can acquire the classic machines for pennies from thrift stores is that people who donate to or shop at these thrift stores believe this is worthless junk that isn't capable of doing anything useful. I (and others on this List) KNOW that is false, but what can you do? How do you raise a voice of opposition in the face of the Wintel juggernaut? -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand(a)aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! *

28 years, 9 months

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which month?

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Here's the list I keep. Sorry about the formatting. Kai November, 1971 Intel 4004 CPU 1971 Nutting & Associates Computer Space arcade 1972 Atari Pong arcade 1972 Magnavox Odyssey home video game system November, 1972 Intel 8008 CPU March, 1974 Scelbi 8H kit appears in QST magazine April, 1974 Intel 8080 CPU July, 1974 Mark 8 plans appear in Radio Electronics magazine August, 1974 Motorola 6800 1974 RCA 1802 CPU 1974 Atari Pong home game January, 1975 MITS Altair 8800 September, 1975 IBM 5100 1975 IMSAI 8080 1975 Processor Technology Sol 1975 MOS Technology/Commodore KIM-1 July, 1976 Apple I kit July, 1976 Zilog Z80 CPU 1976 Fairchild/Zircon Channel F home game April, 1977 Apple II April, 1977 Commodore PET August, 1977 Tandy TRS-80 1977 Atari 2600 VCS home game 1977 RCA Studio II home game 1977 Bally Astrocade home game 1978 Intel 8085 CPU June, 1978 Intel 8086 CPU December, 1978 Atari 400/800 s 1978 Taito/Bally/Midway Space Invaders arcade 1978 Magnavox Odyssey2 home game February, 1979 Intel 8088 CPU May, 1979 Seattle Products 8086 S-100 CPU board May, 1979 Tandy TRS-80 Model II June, 1979 Texas Instruments 99/4 June, 1979 Apple II+ September, 1979 Motorola 68000 CPU 1979 Atari Asteroids arcade 1979 Atari Lunar Lander arcade 1979 Mattel Intellivision home game February, 1980 Sinclair ZX80 June, 1980 Commodore VIC-20 July, 1980 Tandy TRS-80 Model III July, 1980 Tandy TRS-80 Color I September, 1980 Apple III 1980 Atari Battlezone arcade 1980 Atari Missile Command arcade 1980 Bally/Midway Pac-Man arcade 1980 APF M1000 home game April, 1981 Osborne 1 May, 1981 Xerox Star August, 1981 IBM PC 1981 Atari Centipede arcade 1981 Nintendo Donkey Kong arcade November, 1982 Compaq Portable PC 1982 Commodore 64 1982 Colecovision home game 1982 GCE/Milton Bradley Vectrex home game 1982 Milton Bradley Microvision hand held game 1982 Atari 5200 home game 1982 Emerson Arcadia 2001 home game January, 1983 Apple Lisa January, 1983 Apple Iie March, 1983 Tandy TRS-80 Model 100 April, 1983 Tandy TRS-80 Model 4 June, 1983 Coleco Adam October, 1983 IBM PC-XT October, 1983 Compaq Portable Plus December, 1983 Apple III+ 1983 Mattel Intellivision II home game 1983 Mattel Aquarius January, 1984 Apple Macintosh February, 1984 IBM Portable PC March, 1984 IBM PCjr April, 1984 Apple IIc June, 1984 Compaq DeskPro August, 1984 IBM PC-AT September, 1984 Tandy 1000 1984 Motorola 68010 CPU 1984 Intel 80186 CPU 1984 Intel 80286 CPU January, 1985 Commodore 128 January, 1985 Atari 520ST January, 1985 Atari XE January, 1985 Apple Macintosh XL April, 1985 Compaq DeskPro 286 April, 1985 Compaq Portable 286 July, 1985 Commodore Amiga 1000 1985 Nintendo Entertainment System January, 1986 Apple Macintosh Plus February, 1986 Compaq Portable II April, 1986 IBM PC Convertible August, 1986 Intel 80386 CPU September, 1986 Compaq DeskPro 386 September, 1986 IBM PC-XT 286 1986 Sega Master System home game 1986 Atari 7800 March, 1987 Apple Macintosh II April, 1987 IBM PS/2 October, 1987 Compaq Portable 386 1987 Motorola 68030 CPU > ---------- > From: e.tedeschi > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 4:39 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: which month? > > I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction of the > > three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: > > a) the Apple II > b) the Tandy TRS-80 > c) the Commodore Pet > > I need them for a book on collecting home computers I am researching > for. > > Thank you > > enrico > -- > ================================================================ > Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. > tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile > website <http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~e.tedeschi> > ================================================================ > visit Brighton: <http://www.brighton.co.uk/tourist/welcome.htm> >

28 years, 9 months

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PETs ( was Who was in Australia?)

by jolminkh＠c2.telstra-mm.net.au

---------- > From: Ward Griffiths and/or Lisa Rogers <gram(a)terra.cnct.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: PETs ( was Who was in Australia?) > Date: Sunday, June 22, 1997 4:30 PM > > On Sat, 21 Jun 1997, Olminkhof wrote: > > keyboard 4k version, a CBM 3032 and a CBM 8032 hulk. I suspect they will > > always be around because they are so hard to destroy. The case is very > > solid. I found the "hulk" in a paddock, like some people find ancient cars! > > I've never attempted to power this one up though. > > I take "paddock" is Strine for "junkyard", and open to the elements? "paddock" is an english word for a place where animals graze. > -- > Ward Griffiths > "America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within > the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." --Claire Wolfe

28 years, 9 months

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IBM 32174

by manney＠nwohio.com

Anyone want IBM 3174, software and a modem? Save it from the dump! Located in Ohio (near Cleveland)

28 years, 9 months

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USING classic machines

by dlormand＠aztec.asu.edu

>What worries me is that in a lot of cases, the older machines are more >useable than the modern Wintel equivalents. This applies both to a new >user (somebody who just wants to write 2 page letters does _NOT_ (or >should not) need a 166MHz Pentium with 16Mbytes of RAM), and to 'hackers' >who want to understand their machines. It's possible for one person to >complete understand both the hardware and software of most classic >computers - something that (IMHO) is not possible with a Wintel box. >Same here. In reality I use my s100 crate, ampro, and sb180 to produce >8048/9 and 8051 code as they really are faster and easier to use. Also >being as I have them interconnected it's easier to blast proms in the >s100 crate. Efficient, very! I've had nearly 20 years to refine the code >and tools! I have the advantage of having source code for those tools so >and long latent bugs are easily squashed. This is not doable on PCs. >I still do my banking/checkbook on the kaypro! Faster than the PC >overall. For a while there, I was thinking maybe I'm in the wrong group. I see a LOT of traffic about restoring and collecting old computers, and the typical member here is one who has a large collection of different machines, but except for a rare question about boot disks, there isn't much said about using these machines. When I turn on my 99/4A or Geneve, it isn't primarily to bask in a nostalgic glow, but to write something or balance my budget or do some programming. Certainly the nostalgic glow is there, and it adds a dimension to the computing experience that peecee devotees cannot understand. But it IS my primary workhorse, not just a desk queen. Don't get me wrong; I love to hear about these old machines, so keep those messages coming. But I would like to hear from others out there who use their obsolete machines (I prefer "non-mainstream machines") for practical, everyday, household computing uses. In fact, I'm wondering how widespread my idea is (shared by a few, apparently) that the smaller, simpler machines really are well suited for home use, and you don't need a high-end peecee for nearly everything you want to do. -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand(a)aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! *

28 years, 9 months

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pieces of metal and plastic

by manney＠nwohio.com

> Of course if you were a real hacker you had an M-code box that let you > write the native 10 bit (?) instructions for the 41's CPU (I forget what > it's called). I got more into the guts of the HP-71, which was a 20-bit, nybble-oriented. It had a Saturn chip (I think), on which I programmed in FORTH. A FORTH chip was talked about for the HP-41 (never heard it called a coco, though) but I don't know if it jelled.

28 years, 9 months

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Computer Trivia Game

by manney＠nwohio.com

> Anyone remember a trivial-pursuit-like Computer Trivia game? It was being > touted at one of the last West Coast Computer Faires here in San Francisco. > Anyone have a copy? I have computer-based trivia game (shareware, I think) on a CD-ROM. I could dig it up, if anyone want it...it had pretty hard questions, which went 'way back to the dawn of time (you know, like the 1950's :> ))

28 years, 9 months

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which month?

by bwit＠pobox.com

IIRC the TRS-80 was introduced in September 1977. ---------- From: e.tedeschi Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 7:39 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: which month? I wonder if anybody here has the *exact* months of introduction of the three first *real* home computers introduced in 1977: a) the Apple II b) the Tandy TRS-80 c) the Commodore Pet I need them for a book on collecting home computers I am researching for. Thank you enrico -- ================================================================ Enrico Tedeschi, 54, Easthill Drive, BRIGHTON BN41 2FD, U.K. tel/fax +(0)1273 701650 (24 hours) or 0850 104725 mobile website <http://www.ndirect.co.uk/~e.tedeschi> ================================================================ visit Brighton: <http://www.brighton.co.uk/tourist/welcome.htm>

28 years, 9 months

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Northstar Software

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

As much as I would love to get this stuff directly myself, I would much prefer that you send them to Don Maslin, the CP/M boot disk archivist, >from whom I (and many others) can obtain copies. Kai > ---------- > From: Doug Rich > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 9:27 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Northstar Software > > I was a northstar dealer for many years and have a box (about the size > of a > case of paper) full of northstar software on original disks. I am not > sure > what to do with them. I would like them to be of some use to someone. > Any suggestions? > > Doug > > Remember... No mater where you go... there you are! >

28 years, 9 months

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USING classic machines

by cerebral＠michianatoday.com

At 04:07 PM 6/26/97 -0700, you wrote: > > >>What worries me is that in a lot of cases, the older machines are more >>useable than the modern Wintel equivalents. This applies both to a new >>user (somebody who just wants to write 2 page letters does _NOT_ (or >>should not) need a 166MHz Pentium with 16Mbytes of RAM), and to 'hackers' >>who want to understand their machines. It's possible for one person to >>complete understand both the hardware and software of most classic >>computers - something that (IMHO) is not possible with a Wintel box. > >>Same here. In reality I use my s100 crate, ampro, and sb180 to produce >>8048/9 and 8051 code as they really are faster and easier to use. Also >>being as I have them interconnected it's easier to blast proms in the >>s100 crate. Efficient, very! I've had nearly 20 years to refine the code >>and tools! I have the advantage of having source code for those tools so >>and long latent bugs are easily squashed. This is not doable on PCs. > >>I still do my banking/checkbook on the kaypro! Faster than the PC >>overall. > >For a while there, I was thinking maybe I'm in the wrong group. > >I see a LOT of traffic about restoring and collecting old computers, >and the typical member here is one who has a large collection of >different machines, but except for a rare question about boot disks, >there isn't much said about using these machines. When I turn on my >99/4A or Geneve, it isn't primarily to bask in a nostalgic glow, but >to write something or balance my budget or do some programming. >Certainly the nostalgic glow is there, and it adds a dimension to >the computing experience that peecee devotees cannot understand. But >it IS my primary workhorse, not just a desk queen. > >Don't get me wrong; I love to hear about these old machines, so keep >those messages coming. But I would like to hear from others out there >who use their obsolete machines (I prefer "non-mainstream machines") >for practical, everyday, household computing uses. > >In fact, I'm wondering how widespread my idea is (shared by a >few, apparently) that the smaller, simpler machines really are well >suited for home use, and you don't need a high-end peecee for nearly >everything you want to do. > >-- >********************************************** >* David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * >* dlormand(a)aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * >**************************** TMS9900 Lives! * > I do use my old machines now and then, but if anyone here has never ran a modern MAC or PC, they have NO idea what is bieng missed. web pages in full photo quality color, realistic games, PPP connections, Realaudio etc. I am not a member of the dark force, I just have a multitude of machines, and I have EXPERIANCED running them, from an apple ][ +, C=64, IBM XT, and a 586-133. we must have an open mind about this, as there are some who still never ran anything NEW, and pass judgment about how bad a machine is when they have never used one.

28 years, 9 months

4
3
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(fwd) Apple III computer & Monitor FS (fwd)

by dastar＠crl.com

Thought someone may be interested. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "News User" <tbinet(a)ic.net> Newsgroups: comp.sys.apple2.marketplace Subject: Apple III computer & Monitor FS Date: 25 Jun 1997 12:57:25 GMT I have an Apple III computer & Monitor III for sale with Manuals and software for sale, or Trade. Please let me know if you are interested. Robert Please respond to: rdoerr(a)bizserve.com -- Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass

28 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Lisa's scores

by IVIE＠cc.usu.edu

> From hacking Commodore 1541 disks, I have seen that it used a system as you > mentioned above, and in block 0 of each file the first 2 bytes was the load > address if it was a program file, or data in a sequnetial file, and each > block had pointers to the next block. too bad that ms-dos is not as simple.. But MS-DOS _is_ that simple. It just stores the linked list in a different part of the disk than it stores the data... Roger Ivie ivie(a)cc.usu.edu

28 years, 9 months

1
0
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Lisa's scores

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> Does anyone have information / know where I could find information on > building a computer using 2901's? I know they were fairly common and > I have (I'm almost positive) a few of the bare chips laying around > home. Find an old (early 80s) copy of the amd or motorola data books. These are bipolar 4 bit slices and can be used to make a fairly fast cpu (10mhz) of variying designs from 4 bit to over 64 bits. Warning microcoding can be habit forming. You will also want 2909/10/11 microcode sequencer chips. Those are less common. It's rather fun designing a cpu to your specs, hten of course you'll write all the other code too as it's one up design. Allison

28 years, 9 months

2
1
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Z100 saved from the landfill

by groberts＠mitre.org

thanks to a pointer originally posted on this list i met up with someone yesterday who bequeathed me his old Z-100 (Heath/Zenith pre-pc era dual CPU system). it took me a while to replace a bunch of the keyboard switches (they were gunked up with glue) and some bad video RAM, but now the system hums along nicely. he had souped it up in a number of ways (except no hard disk, darn) and had tons of software. i'll undoubtedly have extra and will post a listing of duplicates at some point in case anyone's interested. he included lots of cp/m stuff including cp/m85 and cp/m86 and, interestingly, mp/m. so thanks for the pointer guys! (P.S. i've noticed a markedly improved signal to noise ratio on this list lately so people are thinking twice before hitting the "send" button with meaningless chatter or flaming comments - let's keep it up!) tx. - glenn +=========================================================+ | Glenn F. Roberts, Falls Church, VA | Comments are my own and not the opinion of my employer | groberts(a)mitre.org

28 years, 9 months

1
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C64 CP/M carts

by clark_geisler＠nortel-nsm.com

chemif(a)mbox.queen.it wrote: >At 13:54 23/06/97 -0800, you wrote: >>> On another note, has anyone ever seen (or have) a Basis-xxx? I know it >>> has a number in the name, but I can't remember it. It was an Apple ][ >>> clone that also ran CP/M I believe? Something like that. I'm sure >>> someone knows about it. I only knew one guy who ever had one, but I never >>> saw it. It was a friend in high school back in 1989. >> >>I believe these were designed/built in Europe, probably Germany. > >In Italy there was Lemon computer building Apple-clones. >Has anyone heard about them? Were they actually called 'Lemon's'? That certainly doesn't have a positive connotation in North America! In Canada, a company built Apple II clones called 'Pineapples'. There were probably other fruit-named clones as well! -- Clark Geisler

28 years, 9 months

2
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USING classic machines

by David_A._Vandenbroucke＠hud.gov

I monitor this mailing list (some might call it lurking) because of all the now-classic machines that I used to own. If I had the room, time, and skill, I might be a collector like most of you, but for now I must be content to watch. I'm glad to see that so many people are still getting use out of these machines. There are certainly times when I wish I understood what was going on inside a Windows 95 box as well as I understood the various Kaypros, the Geneva, the Timex-Sinclair, the Model 100, or the other machines I once used on a daily basis. I suppose that even my Mac SE would qualify as a "classic machine" by now. On the other hand, let's not go overboard and say that you can do as much with those lean, mean computers of yesteryear as you can with today's bloated and overpowered desktop Cadillacs. Despite the processing power and overhead devoted to being more user friendly, today's machines are better at doing most kinds of real work. Okay, if you're just writing business letters or balancing your checkbook, a Kaypro is going to work just as well as a Dell Pentium. But that's only one extreme. When I was working on my dissertation, I wrote a cluster analysis program for my Kaypro II because it was the only machine I had. It took months to write and debug the program (written in S-BASIC), and every time I ran the analysis it took two days--literally, 48+ hours of grinding away. I could do the same thing in seconds using SAS and the P133 machine on which I'm typing this. In fact, I do this sort of thing for a living, and there are so many things that would be a major project on a classic machine which I do now just as a matter of preliminary exploration. And it's not just statistics. Writing reports is much easier with a mouse and multitasking. Getting data from dBASE II to Perfect Calc and then moving the summary table to Wordstar or Perfect Writer was a considerable chore. Yesterday I zapped a bunch of Quattro Pro tables (based on SAS output) over to a Word document, and everything showed up with no trouble, formatting and all. Those are programs written by rival companies, but they can talk to each other just fine. Others have mentioned that it takes more skill and intelligence to use classic software than to point and click. I don't disagree with that, and I'm proud of what I was able to get those machines to do. Learning to use those kinds of computers has given me a better outlook about later ones, and I still tweak my current set up much more than most people (and certainly more than our IT department would like me to). But then, I remember a lot of people in my Kaypro User's Group who never figured out how to use the modems in their 2Xs. Friendlier interfaces have opened up the benefits of computing to a lot of people who would never have put up with CP/M. After all computers are _supposed_ to make your life easier. If that means they require less intelligence and skill to use, that means they're doing their job. --Dav david_a._vandenbroucke(a)hud.gov

28 years, 9 months

1
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Commodore P-500

by foxnhare＠goldrush.com

>From: steve <steve(a)kennard.keme.co.uk> >Subject: Re: PET > Hi you lot, glad the group is in a positive mood!!! > Ok can you help ? a few months ago I found a Commodore P500 seriel NO. WG00837 ????? Well if you collect Commodres, you are a very fortunate person! > What the heck is it???? > Its made in W.Germany > Any Idea?? > Steve All I can do is give you the U.S. perspective on this machine, since I haven't heard any stories on the European distribution of P-500s. A few years back I picked up one (P-500) as well, with people telling me it was a B-128, I didn't look at the back and was surely perplexed when I needed to hook it to my 1702 and it came up in 40 column color when I turned it on, so I did some research and asked around a few places (on Q-Link, and a query to the Chicago B-128 users group). I received two or three stories that were pretty much the same. Back in 1982 Commodore re-vamped it's entire product line in order to replace the aging PETs and to eventually phase out the then looking more limited VIC-20. The line consisted of the Commodore 64 and Ulitmax, for games/home/education use and the B-128 and P-500 for education/business and as an upgrade option for people who purchased alot of PET (IEEE-488) equipment. In its rush (given the home computer wars), Commodore sent a bunch of demo units of the B-128 and P-500 to dealers (yeah, I know that sounds strange, it was a different Commodore back then) these units were not to be sold as they still needed to get their FCC certification (for low radio interference). Well some of these dealers were offered quick cash for the demo units (even though they had no manuals or anything) and of course, they jumped at the chance. The FCC heard about these sales of uncertified equipment and told Commodore to immediately cease any sales of them and face stiff penalties. Commodore promptly recalled them (at least the ones they could get). Well they finally certified the B-128 but I guess being that the Commodore 64 was so popular they abandoned the P-500 entirely and it is said they destroyed all reamining P-500s. At the time I talked to the CB128UG (1990?) they said I was the third person in the world ever to report having one, and their estimation was that there are ten in existence. (they would have known since they were lent ALL documantation on the B-128 series from Commodore when they gave up that B-series computers). Ok the P-500 has a 6502 type processor (you know, like the 64) and 128k of RAM, it has a SID sound chip (also on the 64 and B-128), a true RS-232 port, cartridge port (I know of no carts avalable for the B series) and IEEE-488 port. But unlike the B-128 it sports a 40 column VIC-II chip, two joystick ports and ROM coding that supports the datasette drive (the B-128 also has a connector but no programming to use it). Both computers could accept an optional 8088 co-processor board and make it capapble of running CP/M 86. The RS-232 port has one pin designated (on both B-128 &P-500) for a high-speed networking system that never went into development (but was put in hardware, just in case) the guy from CB128UG was pretty impressed with the stats on it which I forgot. So to sum it up, the P-500 is essentially the Color PET or P-128 that Commodore had talked about. Kinda a cross between the SuperPET/B-128 (128k, IEEE-488, true RS-232, Co-Processor), and a 64 (SID, VIC-II, Joysticks, color). Jim Butterfield made a memory map for the B-128 and has some programming examples for the B-128 in Transactor issues which might get you some information, but there are differences. My unit has a RAM problem and I haven't been able to explore it too much, also the ROMs are pretty much porototype and it runs like molassas, so I dunno how much good that would do me when I eventually fix it... If you do find out ANYTHING more (or even have a manual on it) I would surely be interested in what you find out! Larry Anderson -- -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+- Visit our web page at: http://www.goldrush.com/~foxnhare Call our BBS (Silicon Realms BBS 300-2400 baud) at: (209) 754-1363 -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-

28 years, 9 months

3
2
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Lisa's scores

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 09:45 PM 6/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >> us, rather than simply because a machine is physically attractive, >> technically impressive, or financially successful. >Actually, some of the real dogs are just as fun and important. The Lisa, >for example, strikes out on all three (OK, two strikes and one foul) of the >above mentioned catagories, but is still a fascinating machine. Hey, waitaminnit.... The lisa is one of the best looking computers around! I think it's design is a classic! (Also, I think it was technically impressive -- I remember being very impressed upon seeing a demo in a little back room of the St. Francis hotel just before it was announced.) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

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Northstar Software

by bwit＠pobox.com

>> I was a northstar dealer for many years and have a box (about the size >>of a case of paper) full of northstar software on original disks. I am not >>sure what to do with them. I would like them to be of some use to >>someone. >Don Maslin (a frequent contributor to comp.os.cpm) has proven to be >a remarkably able archivist of this sort of stuff. Among other >things, he has a huge archive of CP/M boot disks that he makes >available to those with orphaned machines. His e-mail >address is donm(a)cts.com. I would second this suggestion. Don has saved me on a number of occasions and I think he would be happy to archive and distribute the software to those who need it. Good call Tim. bw

28 years, 9 months

1
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Northstar Software

by doug＠the-one.com

I was a northstar dealer for many years and have a box (about the size of a case of paper) full of northstar software on original disks. I am not sure what to do with them. I would like them to be of some use to someone. Any suggestions? Doug Remember... No mater where you go... there you are!

28 years, 9 months

2
1
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CBM 900

by walgen＠do.isst.fhg.de

---------- From: Alexios Chouchoulas[SMTP:alexios@vennea.demon.co.uk] Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sent: Friday, June 27, 1997 3:20 AM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: CBM 900 > What information is there on the CBM 900? I was mailed by someone who has > a working one and is looking for more information on the machine. What do you need? I have the Coherent-Disk the Manual and some technical diagramms for the C900. > Any info > would be lovely. Btw, his machine is apparently a prototype (it says so > somewhere -- probably a sticker or something). Yes ist is a prototype. According to Jim Brains "cbmmodel": C900 Series: Prototype UNIX System, dropped after Amiga acquisition Zilog Z8000 CPU, Runs Coherent 0.7.3, UNIX 7 clone, Built-In Floppy, HD, IEEE-488. MFM Disk Controller, 1MB 9600 bps, 500 units made. Came in two versions.

28 years, 9 months

1
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Dead Cromemco - Help!

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

My Cromemco System 3 won't power up. Help! Normally I would just pull it open and check the power supply voltages, but this is a problem because A) the case is incredibly difficult to get into, and B) I don't have the schematics. I'd like folks' assessment of probable problem causes before I tear into it (heck, it takes two people just to move the sucker!) Symptoms: The rear power switch glows when I turn it on. So far, so good. All fuses are OK. When I turn the front key (or hit the rear switch with the front key already ON) all I get is a faint internal click, and the power supply fan moves VERY slightly (maybe 1/8"). Somebody told me this is an AC fan, is this true? If so, either the fan is dead or the problem isn't the power supply. If the problem is the power supply, what's the likely culprit for this symptom? I peered into the back of the case with a flashlight (this is a BIG case) and the cap didn't appear to be leaking. Thoughts? thanks Kai

28 years, 9 months

3
2
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PCjr Cartridges?

by thedm＠sunflower.com

Im interested in the PCjr carts. I have the basic one, but I can post a list of what I have. ---------- > From: Uncle Roger <sinasohn(a)crl.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: PCjr Cartridges? > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 8:27 PM > > Saw today a few cartridges which I'm guessing are PCjr carts. They said > (among other things) "Cartridge BASIC". Anyone interested in them? They > were (I think) a buck. > > They also had some misc Apple II cards (about $5 each, I think), some Atari > 800 ROM's (or RAM? I didn't look that closely). Lemme know if there's any > interest. > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- > > Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad > sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." > Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates > San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

1
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old printers

by SUPRDAVE＠aol.com

if anyone does actually collect old printers i've one available for the asking. its an hp2671a, a big and ugly thermal printer made in feb of 1993. prints the self test, but i cannot establish communication with mac, a //e or an xt through it's serial port no matter what the dip switches are set to. im in raleigh, nc and the printer weighs about 20lbs, so it's probably not worth shipping. if anyone wants it, give me a shout before i round file it. david.

28 years, 9 months

1
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PCjr Cartridges?

by sinasohn＠crl.com

Saw today a few cartridges which I'm guessing are PCjr carts. They said (among other things) "Cartridge BASIC". Anyone interested in them? They were (I think) a buck. They also had some misc Apple II cards (about $5 each, I think), some Atari 800 ROM's (or RAM? I didn't look that closely). Lemme know if there's any interest. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

1
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Floppy drive type for North Star controller?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> Anybody know what type of drive I can connect to the popular North Star > MDS-AD3 S-100 disk controller board? Sugart sa400l or similar. The MDS-AD3 was a dual density controller that aslo did two sided. Any of the 360 PC half height drives will work as will many of the older full height. Your limited to 5.25 as the media must be for ten sector hard sectoring. I have one here but it was given to me dead. I still run a MDS-A2 single density controller. FYI the are hard sector 10 sectors per track 256 or 512 bytes a sector. > dual density (FM vs. MFM) is determined by the controller, and soft vs. FM single density, MFM double density. > What bothers me is single vs. double sided and all of those jumpers on 5 > 1/4" drives. Will dual sided drives work on single sided controllers, Yes. > with only one side operating? Do those jumpers need to be set > differently for different controllers, and how would I find > documentation for the various brands (I'm sure I wouldn't!) Yes. The controller you identified is two sided capable and double density capable but the OS can be configured for various combinations. Allison

28 years, 9 months

1
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Lisa's scores

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> BTW, Allison, the Lisa wasn't actually a PROTOTYPE for the Mac. Rather i > was the sister machine to the Mac. The Lisa and Mac projects stemmed fro > the same research, with the Mac project splitting off from the Lisa It was my understanding at the time if you wanted to develop apps for the mac you needed a design kit and a lisa. Something to the effect that the lisa has the resources that were a bit short in the mac. Allison

28 years, 9 months

1
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(fwd) 65816 computer (fwd)

by dastar＠crl.com

This is a message by John Harris I pulled off of the Atari 8bit newsgroup. John Harris, if you've ever read _Hackers_ by Steven Levy, wrote pretty awesome games for ther Atari 800. He later when on to start his own company which used Atari 8-bit computers as displays in airports and in the hotel industry for the guests services menu on the TV (read about it in a soft-book called _Halcyon Days_). Anyway, the system he describes here sounds pretty neat. Sam ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: jharris(a)poboxes.com (John Harris) Newsgroups: comp.sys.atari.8bit Subject: 65816 computer Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 18:01:39 GMT Some of you may remember an anouncement I tried to make a few years back, but later had to keep quiet. It concerned a new atari-compatible computer made with a 65816 processor and some other cool stuff. It was being manufactured for a dedicated application that I actually never found out what it really was. I found out about it at a time when I was selling character generator software on the Atari8, and having immense difficulty obtaining Atari hardware. It was a great connection to make, and we are still selling these new systems with my CG software installed. The big project never materialized, since the company making the systems and Atari could never reach an agreement for large supply of Atari custom chips. It seemed like a no-brainer--Atari had chips, these guys had money, it should have been a simple exchange. It's no wonder Atari doesn't have any feet left. They keep shooting themselves there. Anyway, the bottom line is that Atari negotiations were the reason behind my silence at the time, and now that the project is completely dead I can make public the details of the machine for all those that are curious. It is based on a 5.37MHz 65816 processor, although it still runs 1.79MHz when accessing the base 64K of address space for compatibilty with the custom chips. It is in a nice case with internal 3.5 high density floppy and hard drive, parallel and serial, expansion slots, fully static memory (turn the power off and on, and everything is still there!), mouse support, and separate IBM-style keyboard. It has its own Sparta-like DOS, and with 65816 optimizations the memlo gets down to $FA3. I've found the compatibility to be extremely good, with two main problems. Some european programs, especially demos, use the undocumented 6502 extra instructions, and these don't work on the 65816 CPU. The other issue, is that there is no cartridge slot. Technically, it is feasible to add a slot using a plug in board, and run a connector out the back. It would probably depend on the number of interested parties for whether it was financially affordable to get the thing made. One nice thing about the slots though, they are physically the same as IBM 16-bit ISA cards. (but not electronically compatible of course). You can get experimenter boards for IBMs that just run power and have all other connections open. The do-it-yourself'er can do pretty much anything from here. Because of being a very low-production item, it is really expensive by 8-bit standards. Retail is $1800 with all options and the CG software. Obviously, it's only being sold to commercial applications like hotels and cable TV at that price. It is possible to make some deals if anyone is interested, especially for systems without the CG software. Obviously, I need to be fair to the people who are still buying the system for commercial use. I don't have any prices for you, but if anyone is interested at all, please let me know and I'll see what we can work out. If you're just curious for info, let me know that too. John Harris Japanese translation of Microsoft slogan: jharris(a)poboxes.com "If you don't know where you want to go, we'll make sure you get taken."

28 years, 9 months

1
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Floppy drive type for North Star controller?

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Hi all, Anybody know what type of drive I can connect to the popular North Star MDS-AD3 S-100 disk controller board? I'm confused with all of this old floppy terminology. I know single vs. dual density (FM vs. MFM) is determined by the controller, and soft vs. hard sectoring is determined by the controller, so neither of these should matter as far as the drive is concerned. What bothers me is single vs. double sided and all of those jumpers on 5 1/4" drives. Will dual sided drives work on single sided controllers, with only one side operating? Do those jumpers need to be set differently for different controllers, and how would I find documentation for the various brands (I'm sure I wouldn't!) Any advice appreciated, thanks Kai

28 years, 9 months

2
1
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USING classic machines

by BROBSTONA＠wartburg.edu

>I see a LOT of traffic about restoring and collecting old computers, >and the typical member here is one who has a large collection of >different machines, but except for a rare question about boot disks, >there isn't much said about using these machines. When I turn on my >99/4A or Geneve, it isn't primarily to bask in a nostalgic glow, but >to write something or balance my budget or do some programming. >Certainly the nostalgic glow is there, and it adds a dimension to >the computing experience that peecee devotees cannot understand. But >it IS my primary workhorse, not just a desk queen. That's part of what I love about my Apple IIGS. I'm the original owner. I know what this machine has done for me and continues to do for me. I love its simplicity. In the rare event of a crash, I pretty much know what the problem is, because I know the machine much better than anything Wintel came up with or any of the Macincrash line. >Don't get me wrong; I love to hear about these old machines, so keep >those messages coming. But I would like to hear from others out there >who use their obsolete machines (I prefer "non-mainstream machines") >for practical, everyday, household computing uses. Well, I'm a college student, so I use my IIGS for writing papers (though I transfer them to a Mac to print because my Imagewriter II isn't in good shape - I'll get around to fixing it one of these days). Mainly, I use it to connect to the campus computer system. I've also used it to run a BBS, play games, program - more than most people do with their PeeCees. >In fact, I'm wondering how widespread my idea is (shared by a >few, apparently) that the smaller, simpler machines really are well >suited for home use, and you don't need a high-end peecee for nearly >everything you want to do. You bet it is! This machine does everything I want or need it to do (or at least is capable of it, if I'm too cheap to buy things like a laser printer). -- Andy Brobston brobstona(a)wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole.

28 years, 9 months

1
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IBM System/36

by rcini＠msn.com

Dan: Although I have never seen one up-close, a company that I formerly worked for had a System 36. I think that it is one of IBM's older mainframes/minis that was the predecessor to the AS/400 (our S36 software ran unmodified on the AS/400). It's based on a TwinAx-based network and has terminals connected to it with snappy names such as the "3270" and the "5250". Line printers are also Twin-Ax based. I hope that this is the same one that I was thinking about (otherwise, ignore the above <g>). ------------------------ Rich Cini/WUGNET - ClubWin Charter Member (6) - MCPS Windows 95/Networking

28 years, 9 months

1
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pieces of metal and plastic

by dlormand＠aztec.asu.edu

>And it was more than just the machine itself, but the culture that >spawned around it. The culture I am referring to mainly is the BBS >culture with all its lingo, the pirate groups who banded together and >cracked software, the holy wars with other computers. >The history behind the machine is what I am most interested in. What >company built it, what year it came out, what technology it used (its >processor, RAM, etc), what its predecessor and successor were, etc. I >like to know each machines historical perspective. Part of the thrill I have of being a TI junkie is BEING part of that history! The interesting part of the 99/4A is not so much the level of technology involved (although it IS there, relative to other home computers of the period) as the legend of how TI could make a market run with it, strain every nerve in true TI tradition, and then dramatically dump it when the effort finally proves to be too much. And now, I am part of the history of the TI-99/4A too, by perversely supporting it in preference to other (e.g. modern, more capable) platforms. -- ********************************************** * David Ormand *** Southwest 99ers * * dlormand(a)aztec.asu.edu *** Tucson, Arizona * **************************** TMS9900 Lives! *

28 years, 9 months

1
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Lisa's scores

by cerebral＠michianatoday.com

>Files are linked lists of blocks. The sector header of each sector on the >hard disk contains pointers to the previous and next blocks in the file, >along with some other info that I've forgotten >Files may be sparse - the fact that block n exists does not mean that >block n-1 does >Block 0 of each file (I think, maybe block -1) contains the 'file >descriptor' - bascially an i-node. >Negative block numbers are the file allocation map. You can use this to >quickly find any block in the file without following the links.

28 years, 9 months

1
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Help identifying ...

by walgen＠do.isst.fhg.de

Hi, today I got a special german (?) computer. It is a "SIEMENS PC100". But inside there is a board labled "R6500 ADVANCED INTERACTIVE MICROCOMPUTER" it is made by "ROCKLWELL" with a small (thermo?) printer a one-line display. Is this one of the legendary AIM65-Machines?

28 years, 9 months

1
0
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Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff)

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 06:47 PM 6/25/97 -0700, you wrote: >I'm not so sure that "everything" supports TIFF. After a little looking, >I couldn't even find a TIFF file to test with xv. And my experience has been that TIFF is not always the same, especially Mac vs. PC. >Is there a reason that postscript cannot be used? Most of the schematics >out there that I have seen have been postscript files. [...] >Why not use postscript for publishing the formatted documents? Postscript is fine for Macs, not so great for PC's, and probably unusable for most older (pre-pc) machines. I'm not so worried about the images, but the formatted text should be kept readable. I'm not super-familiar with RTF, but isn't it just tags (like HTML)? If so, than a "reader"(?) could be written, even for CP/M or TRS-DOS or whatever... --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

1
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atari800xl FOUND it!

by thedm＠sunflower.com

Monitor Jack (all but 400, North American 600XL, XE Game System): 3 1 5 4 2 1. Composite Luminance (not on North American 600XL's) 2. Ground 3. Audio Output 4. Composite Video 5. Composite Chroma (not on 800XL,1200XL; grounded on 600XL) ---------- > From: Bill Girnius <thedm(a)sunflower.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: atari800xl > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 10:39 AM > > anyone know the video pinouts so I can build a cable for this? i just > learned it has a video output.

28 years, 9 months

1
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atari800xl

by thedm＠sunflower.com

anyone know the video pinouts so I can build a cable for this? i just learned it has a video output.

28 years, 9 months

1
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TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> >The Basic was an 4k microsoft basic with floating point and simple = > >arrays but no alphanumeric operators or transcendental functions. > =20 > >Tiny basic was an integer language of less than 4k. =20 > > IIRC Level I Basic was floating point but it was not a Microsoft = > product. Only Level II Basic came from Microsoft. In fact the source = > for Level I Basic was later released and I think I have a copy of it in = > storage somewhere. I pulled my notebooks from 76/77/78 and yes RS called it Tiny but, is was not. Tiny basic was the generic name given to ALL integer basics. At the time the only source available basic that was floating point was LLLbasic (lawence livermore labs) which as 8080 code fit in 5k of rom. I suspected at the time it could be a z80 recode for space, no match. Of the tiny basics palo alto TB (1976) was well known and fit in 2k of rom without IO drivers. It didn't match L1. My files indicate that the basic was most closely that of MITS altair basic 4k (pre- MS) by gates/allen. Techically is was not MS. It was at least looking at my notebook significantly identical. That particular basic was an early lost one and after about 79-80 its not seen in MSbasic docs. I suspect it was due to it being pre MS and having allens hand in it. FYI mits 4k basic was small enough to fit in 4k of ram and still hold the video and keyboard drivers. Allison

28 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> Level I BASIC was _NOT_ a Microsoft BASIC. It was a fairly straight > rendition of Tiny BASIC. Unless I've been lied to for many years. The > Tiny BASIC published in Interface Age did have floating point, though not > much precision. You were lied to. ;-) I have the IA articles for TB and TBX along with DDJ and BYTE. tiny basic was integer. There were several small basics that fit in 4k that were not like L1 (different mix of capability) or were MS 4k clones. Technically it was MS4k. I'd used the altair version and the TRS80 and they were Identical! > The keybounce was a bug in the hardware. Mine always came back when I > turned the keyboard upside down and dumped out a few months worth of > cigarette ashes. A week later the problem would go away. (Proof that I > didn't grow up in a clean-room computer environment -- I was 23 and out > of the USAF when I got that Mod I in '78). Wrong. I was doing systems design for a terminal company while at RS(i was not in sales). That terminal company used the exact same keyboard. Switches bounce, debounce is simple you detect closure wait a few MS and verify closure if the verify fails the switc is open. The 4k basic didn't wait long enough but, beniding the contacts to change their dynamics was often enough. The verification if this is I clocked off a pulse gen and at 1.15mhz the bounce would go away! The delay rountine was in software so slowing the cpu was enough to make the dely longer and it would behave. some of the speed mods made it worsse unless LII was in there. I still have my trs80 hackboard (much modified and mangled) that I used to test various and sundry ideas. Of course when Tandy has launched the trs80 I'd had my altair up and running for some time with a TTY, ct1024 (64x16 upper only) and PR40 printer for a while. Allison

28 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> > modifications), and power supply brick. Level I BASIC is similar to > > Tiny BASIC. I still have my Level I BASIC reference manual. > > Level I BASIC _was_ Tiny BASIC. NO IT WAS NOT. LEVEL-I basic was the same basic sold by gates for the altair just a later revision level. IT was little, it ws limited but to did have floating point math and a few otehr things not found in tiny basics of the time. Tiny BASIC was one of several basics that were integer math only and far more limited and generally smaller too. Once upon a time there were three basics from MS, 4k, 8k, 12k extended, disk (~23k), and compiled(bascom). L1 was 4k and LII was the 12k extended with mods. > Dennis Kitsz did once publish an upgrade to 48k that could be done in a > keyboard without the EI. I have no idea how many others built it, but I > never had a problem with the alleged memory speed problems from the EI > cable. Jerry Pournelle's gripes are another story. It was never memory speed it was ras/mux/cas timing that was marginal. after about late 79 the design was substantually changed to derive the signals loacally in the EI. stacking 32k more in the keyboard was a trivial task. IF you didn't mind staking the chips three high and skywiring the cas/ lines for the added chips to a decoder. It did work well. > > - RS-232 interface board > For expansion interface. > > Worked better than an Apple serial card from the era. The RS card worked excellent if the connector did! > I _still_ don't understand that trade-off between cost and utility. The > decision makers were gone before I joined the company in '80. INthe trs 80 case some of it was the lack of decision making by other than marketing/sales types. I was there from 74-79 and helped launch and fix the trs80 > > It was more reliable than the cassette interfaces for the Apple or the Pe > ot the Atari. _All_ cassette interfaces are unreliable. How many people Generally speaking all audio cassette interfaces were poor. Some were poorer than others. I'd tried digital (saturation recording) using a modified trs80(all the analog gone) and it was absolutely reliable. The recorder electronics were no more complicated than athe audio just different. > more than a few eval and review units when Tandy announced the TRS-80 > Microcomputer System on 3 Aug 77 with 5,000 units already in the > warehouses -- idea was, since they didn't know if it would work, they had > 5,000 stores -- if the silly things didn't move they'd figure out a way The first year of sales exceeded 250,000! > The one Percom used came out after the design was final. The percom design existed at least a year before the design was started. It was straight out of the wd1771 data sheet!

28 years, 9 months

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MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.

by walgen＠do.isst.fhg.de

---------- From: Cord Coslor[SMTP:coslor@pscosf.peru.edu] Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 2:50 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. > I am located in central Nebraska, USA, and am looking for the following to > add to my collection. If you have these systems or might be able to get > them for me at a reasonable price, PLEASE e-mail me. > > MSX computer > Colour Genie > TI 99/4a I have a Colour Genie and a Sony HitBit HB75 and also a Ti99/4A as I live in germany sending the TI99/4A makes no sense but if you are interested in the other items drop me a note. I would like to swap them on a "I send them to you and pay on my own and you send me some other stuff and pay for the shipping". What do you think? Here my URL for some other stuff I have to trade: http://192.102.161.122/~walgen/

28 years, 9 months

1
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pieces of metal and plastic

by manney＠nwohio.nwohio.com

> > > Remember it? If it's what I am thinking of, I was doing it a couple of > > > weeks ago. You are talking about a 'Coconut', right (explanation of that > > > codename also on request - it has _nothing_ to do with the Tandy CoCo). > > > Nowadays I do something similar. I create a GROB with the right bit > > > patterns, use the SystemRPL 'Get' routine to remove the header, and thus > > > create new objects. No, not quite. The HP-41C used 2, 3 or 4 bytes to create the program steps. By forcing apart the bytes and substituting new ones, new ("synthetic") opcodes could be created. These ranged from creating new characters to being able to access areas of memory. Ah, the heady days of discovery! Mother HP wouldn't officially help, but there was plenty of behind-the-scenes help.

28 years, 9 months

2
1
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CBM 900

by alexios＠vennea.demon.co.uk

Hello folks! What information is there on the CBM 900? I was mailed by someone who has a working one and is looking for more information on the machine. Any info would be lovely. Btw, his machine is apparently a prototype (it says so somewhere -- probably a sticker or something). Thanks, Alexios --------------------------- ,o88,o888o,,o888o. ------------------------------- Alexios Chouchoulas '88 ,88' ,88' alexios(a)vennea.demon.co.uk The Unpronounceable One ,o88oooo88ooooo88oo, axc(a)dcs.ed.ac.uk

28 years, 9 months

2
2
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TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.)

by bwit＠pobox.com

>>modifications), and power supply brick. Level I BASIC is similar to >> Tiny BASIC. I still have my Level I BASIC reference manual. >The Basic was an 4k microsoft basic with floating point and simple >arrays but no alphanumeric operators or transcendental functions. >Tiny basic was an integer language of less than 4k. IIRC Level I Basic was floating point but it was not a Microsoft product. Only Level II Basic came from Microsoft. In fact the source for Level I Basic was later released and I think I have a copy of it in storage somewhere. Regards, Bob

28 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.)

by fmc＠reanimators.org

Kai Kaltenbach <kaikal(a)MICROSOFT.com> writes: > Other Upgrades: You left out the TRS-80 Screen Printer, a widget that plugs into the connector otherwise used for the Expansion Interface. Hit the switch on the front of the printer, and it ejects a few inches of silvery electrostatic paper with the image on your screen zapped dark on it. My understanding is that it grabs the image right out of the screen memory. Somewhere I have some pages printed by one of these. As I recall they didn't last long as a product. I think I have two Radio Shack microcomputer catalogs from 1978 (one white/black/silver, one later one in full color) and the screen printer is only shown in the earlier catalog, but both are loaned out to someone who wanted to scan some pictures from them. (Hey Javier, are you reading this?) -Frank McConnell

28 years, 9 months

2
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FS: More cheap C= stuff, GEOS, Games

by gmast＠oboe.aix.calpoly.edu

Sorry, I for got to aadd these to my last message. Also found some software. I've never used this stuff so it's an as-is deal. Geos Lot: Looks like a set of GEOS 2.0 and 1.2 Manuals for 1.2 and 2.0 Deskpak Plus (six applications for GEOS) Deskpak Manual 25 Blank 5-1/4 disks Price $5, Shipping $2.75 C-64 Game/Software Lot: Zork I or C64 with Manual Flight Simulator II in box w/manual AwardWare Graphics Starcross game w/manual Business Indoor Sports w/manual Into the Eagles Nest (WWII) Box of 12 misc disks w/some s/w Price $5, Shipping $2.75

28 years, 9 months

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FS: Books, Books, Books!

by gmast＠oboe.aix.calpoly.edu

I'm sorting through the boxes of "stuff" I have accumulated and I've saved a pile of books you folks might be interested in. I am selling them in lots because I don't have time to pack up and mail them out individually. Besides they're going cheap! Shipping via USPS Book Rate. Commodore Lot: The Manager - Commodore 64 C64 User's Manual Kids and the Commodore 64 Commodore 64 Favorite Programs Explained Re Run - Reprinted Articles from Jan to June 1984 - Run Magazine VIC 1541 User's Maanual More than 32 Basic Programs for the C64 Commodore 64 User's Handbook Commodore 64 Programmer's Reference Guide Turte Graphics II Instruction Manual Price $5, Shipping $4.25 Apple Lot: Critic's Guide to Software for Apple and Compatible Computers Apple II Super Serial Card Manual Apple II 80-Column Text Card Manual Extended 80-Column Text Card Supplement Apple II The DOS Manual Applesoft II Basic Programming Reference Manual Price $5, Shipping $4.25 Other Lot: 10 Starter Programs from Family Computing (Apple, Atari, etc, 1983) 1986 Radio Shack Software Reference and Tandy Computer Guide A Bit of Basic (Apple II, TRS-80) Price $2.75, Shipping $2.25

28 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.)

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

The Model I originally shipped without a numeric keypad. To the right of the main keyboard was a rectangular keypad-size plaque reading "Radio Shack TRS-80 Micro Computer System". The numeric keypad was added to later models, and was available as a retrofit kit for around $50. With the numeric keypad installed, the nameplate was moved to a horizontal plaque above the keyboard. The TRS-80 Model I lineage includes: Model I, 4K, Level I BASIC - This is a 3-piece system with the computer in the keyboard. It includes the system keyboard/cpu, monitor, tape drive (actually a rebadged regular Radio Shack portable cassette deck with no modifications), and power supply brick. Level I BASIC is similar to Tiny BASIC. I still have my Level I BASIC reference manual. Model I, 16K, Level II BASIC - The 16K and Level II upgrades went together. 16K is the maximum Model I memory in the system unit (8x 4116 DRAMs). Level II BASIC is similar to Microsoft BASIC/80 with functions added for things like the TRS-80's 128x48 memory-mapped monochrome graphics. Level II also added a keyboard debounce routine--Level I machines were very difficult for typists. Other Upgrades: - Expansion Interface Matching silver color, acts as a monitor stand, connects to system unit via ribbon cable. Contains dual floppy controller (WD chip), sockets for an additional 32K (2 banks of 4116 DRAMs) for a system maximum of 48K, and a parallel connection. 16K ROM BASIC occupied the remainder of the address space. The expansion interface also contains a card bay for an RS-232 interface. - RS-232 interface board For expansion interface. - Floppy drives Single-sided single-density, approx. 90KB free space. - Lower case upgrade Provides lower case capability. - Numeric keypad retrofit As discussed above Known TRS-80 Model I problems: - Unreliable cassette interface. Radio Shack later released a modification that improved this somewhat. The best option is a third-party unit called the Data Dubber by Microperipheral Corporation (I worked there!) that went in between the system unit and cassette and squared the wave. - Wonky, unbuffered connection to Expansion Interface. This went through various modifications, and some cables you'll see have big buffer boxes in the middle. Later Expansion Interfaces had built-in buffering. Some bought third-party expansion interface clones from Lobo and others. Be very careful if you get an Expansion Interface without a cable. It might need the buffered cable, and it would be a pain to manufacture. - Bad data separator chip. The stock data separator was unreliable. Most people replaced theirs with a third-party improvement such as Percom's. - Unreliable connection for the Expansion Interface-mounted RS-232 board. This board slipped over vertical post connections and never made good contact. Most folks used third-party alternatives that worked off the cassette port. Kai > ---------- > From: Mr. Self Destruct > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 4:14 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Re: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. > > > On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Scott Walde wrote: > > > No. They were originally known (and labelled) as the TRS-80 > Microcomputer > > System. They later became known as the model 1 (Although I don't > think > > they were ever labelled as such.) > > > > Were there two different Model 1's? I have seen pictures of Model 1's > that don't look like my Model 1. (i.e. no numeric keypad) > > Les > more(a)crazy.rutgers.edu > > >

28 years, 9 months

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Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff)

by BROBSTONA＠wartburg.edu

>> Compressed 1-bit, 300 dpi TIFF for schematics >> - Almost everything supports TIFF, including tons of shareware and [technical stuff snipped] >I'm not so sure that "everything" supports TIFF. After a little looking, >I couldn't even find a TIFF file to test with xv. Is there anything for either OpenVMS/Alpha (No DEC/X-windows) or the Apple IIGS that can read TIFF? >> RTF (Rich Text Format) for text documents that use formatting >> - WordPerfect, Word, WordPad, etc. will save in this format How about HTML? That would likely be more readable for my shell account (though not all formatting would be displayed in Lynx). I suppose I could walk over to the computer lab and use a Mac or a PC if I *had* to. :) -- Andy Brobston brobstona(a)wartburg.edu ***NEW URL BELOW*** http://www.wartburg.edu/people/docs/personalPages/BrobstonA/home.html My opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of Wartburg College as a whole.

28 years, 9 months

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Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff)

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Hey, figuring out standards like this is what I do. I recommend: JPEG for photo scans (brochures, ads, etc.) - It's the Internet photo file format standard Compressed 1-bit, 300 dpi TIFF for schematics - Almost everything supports TIFF, including tons of shareware and Wang's free image processing add-on for Win95 (http://www.microsoft.com/windows95/info/wang.htm) - 1-bit means monochrome (not grayscale). Use JPEG for images. - Images should be 300 dpi, 8 1/2" x 11", i.e. 2550 x 3300 (don't worry about scanning white space, it takes no space at all when compressed) TXT for text documents that don't use formatting - 80-column with carriage returns please RTF (Rich Text Format) for text documents that use formatting - WordPerfect, Word, WordPad, etc. will save in this format Kai > ---------- > From: Bill Whitson > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 1:05 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Archiving Stuff > > Hi all. > > Consider Classiccmp Web/FTP open for your archiving pleasure ;). > > The process has been more or less tested out and is ready to go. > Submissions of Software, Documentation, ROM code, whatever are all > OK. > > What really remains to be done is to work out standards for file > formats. I'll let those of you who are experts on specific platforms > argue that out. I'll follow whatever ensues and firm up some > guidelines. > > To submit something you need to download the form DS-form.txt from > the FTP site (140.142.225.27) and fill it out to the best of your > ability. Follow the instructions at the bottom of the form for > uploading. > > All the form does is provide evidence (if anyone ever complains) that > I'm not just uploading copyrighted material without a care. > > Anyway - if you're itching to archive stuff feel free. Your comments > are welcome and also unavoidable ;) > > Bill > > ---------------------------------------------------- > Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp > bill(a)booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw(a)u.washington.edu > http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw > >

28 years, 9 months

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TRS-80 Model I info (RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> The Model I originally shipped without a numeric keypad. To the right Correct. > of the main keyboard was a rectangular keypad-size plaque reading "Radio > Shack TRS-80 Micro Computer System". The numeric keypad was added to > later models, and was available as a retrofit kit for around $50. With > the numeric keypad installed, the nameplate was moved to a horizontal > plaque above the keyboard. Also correct. > > The TRS-80 Model I lineage includes: > > Model I, 4K, Level I BASIC > - This is a 3-piece system with the computer in the keyboard. It > includes the system keyboard/cpu, monitor, tape drive (actually a > rebadged regular Radio Shack portable cassette deck with no > modifications), and power supply brick. Level I BASIC is similar to > Tiny BASIC. I still have my Level I BASIC reference manual. The Basic was an 4k microsoft basic with floating point and simple arrays but no alphanumeric operators or transcendental functions. Tiny basic was an integer language of less than 4k. > Model I, 16K, Level II BASIC > - The 16K and Level II upgrades went together. 16K is the maximum Model > I memory in the system unit (8x 4116 DRAMs). Level II BASIC is similar wrong. Either could be installed alone. Generally LII with 4k was pretty cramped. FYI: the LII romset was only 12k. > to Microsoft BASIC/80 with functions added for things like the TRS-80's > 128x48 memory-mapped monochrome graphics. It was MS12k basic with TRS extensions (graphics). >Level II also added a > keyboard debounce routine--Level I machines were very difficult for > typists. The key bounce was a bug in the original 4k software, it didn't wait long enough. There was a cassette that when loaded fixed it. Me I'd clean the key contacts with a swab and some contact cleaner and get the same result. > - Expansion Interface > Matching silver color, acts as a monitor stand, connects to system unit > via ribbon cable. Contains dual floppy controller (WD chip), sockets > for an additional 32K (2 banks of 4116 DRAMs) for a system maximum of > 48K, and a parallel connection. 16K ROM BASIC occupied the remainder of > the address space. The expansion interface also contains a card bay for > an RS-232 interface. The bottom 16k was 12k of rom (LII basic) 1k of ram for video and keyboard mapped in to memory space. Some of the 4k space for the video and keyboard was wasted due to partial decode. The upside was since the keyboard was scanned by the cpu so alternate shift and character sets were easy to do. The down side is no matter how you tried, keyboard type ahead was impossible, the keyboard could not interrupt the CPU. > - RS-232 interface board > For expansion interface. The surface connector used was very cranky. > - Floppy drives > Single-sided single-density, approx. 90KB free space. The design used the 1771 internal data seperator which was not very tolerent of drive spped errors or data jitter. > - Lower case upgrade > Provides lower case capability. Way late in the game the "field mod" had been around over a year before tandy did it. > - Numeric keypad retrofit > As discussed above Popular item! > Known TRS-80 Model I problems: > > - Unreliable cassette interface. Radio Shack later released a > modification that improved this somewhat. The best option is a > third-party unit called the Data Dubber by Microperipheral Corporation > (I worked there!) that went in between the system unit and cassette and > squared the wave. There were two mods one largely marginal, the later one was very effective. I had a mod I did that worked very well and was far simpler. > - Wonky, unbuffered connection to Expansion Interface. This went > through various modifications, and some cables you'll see have big > buffer boxes in the middle. Later Expansion Interfaces had built-in > buffering. Some bought third-party expansion interface clones from Lobo > and others. Be very careful if you get an Expansion Interface without a > cable. It might need the buffered cable, and it would be a pain to > manufacture. The first version with the unbuffered or buffered cable was a junk design. the later one with local ras/cas timing was far better. > - Bad data separator chip. The stock data separator was unreliable. > Most people replaced theirs with a third-party improvement such as > Percom's. The stock circuit depended on the 1771 chips internal seperator, Even WD the chipmaker said don't do it! > - Unreliable connection for the Expansion Interface-mounted RS-232 > board. This board slipped over vertical post connections and never made > good contact. Most folks used third-party alternatives that worked off > the cassette port. Being there at the begining was half the fun. Allison

28 years, 9 months

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Lisa's scores

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> > really think the engineers blew it. The original OS is too innovative, > > so much that the computer is nearly unuseable. > > I wouldn't think that "too innovative" would result in a lesser rating fo > "technical" aspects (at least in the realm of computer history/collecting > the "real" world is a different matter (see "success"...)) Lest we forget the LISA was the Prototype system for the mac! Allison

28 years, 9 months

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MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.

by manney＠nwohio.nwohio.com

> I am looking for > > IBM PC Junior > Apple II > TRS-80 (model I) I think I have a couple of trash-80's in the back room. One with disks, one without. Do they say "model 1"? (I don't know these at all) Does have a Lisa he/she wants to unload? I also have several, nice-condition Commodore boxes that I'd hate to pitch. As long as we're in the subject of trading, I have several years of PPC (HP programmable calculator user group) that I'd *love* to find a home for of...absolutely fascinating stuff, including the origin of Ulam's conjecture.

28 years, 9 months

5
5
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Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff)

by thedm＠sunflower.com

Whats wrong with plain old ascii text. ---------- > From: Paul E Coad <pcoad(a)crl.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Archive file formats (RE: Archiving Stuff) > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 8:47 PM > > > Kai, > > Nice initial stab at some standards. I am a little concerned that this > is a bit PC-centric. I would like to make sure that those of us on the > fringe (not using Windows machines or Macs) don't get left out. This > may mean lowering the standards to be a little more inclusive. > > Maybe these are all cross-platform standards, I don't know. Can any of > the VMS/AmigaOS/TOS/whatnotOS people read and write all of these formats? > > I'm not trying to start a religious war. I want to be able to make use > of and possibly contribute to the archive. > > On Wed, 25 Jun 1997, Kai Kaltenbach wrote: > > > Hey, figuring out standards like this is what I do. I recommend: > > > > JPEG for photo scans (brochures, ads, etc.) > > - It's the Internet photo file format standard > > xv can be used to view these so Unix/X is covered. > > > > > Compressed 1-bit, 300 dpi TIFF for schematics > > - Almost everything supports TIFF, including tons of shareware and > > Wang's free image processing add-on for Win95 > > (http://www.microsoft.com/windows95/info/wang.htm) > > - 1-bit means monochrome (not grayscale). Use JPEG for images. > > - Images should be 300 dpi, 8 1/2" x 11", i.e. 2550 x 3300 (don't worry > > about scanning white space, it takes no space at all when compressed) > > > > I'm not so sure that "everything" supports TIFF. After a little looking, > I couldn't even find a TIFF file to test with xv. > > Is there a reason that postscript cannot be used? Most of the schematics > out there that I have seen have been postscript files. > > > TXT for text documents that don't use formatting > > - 80-column with carriage returns please > > Text is good. > > > > > RTF (Rich Text Format) for text documents that use formatting > > - WordPerfect, Word, WordPad, etc. will save in this format > > > > Is there anything under Unix which can read and/or write RTF? > > Why not use postscript for publishing the formatted documents? > > --pec > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Saved From The Dumpster Collection: http://www.crl.com/~pcoad/machines.html >

28 years, 9 months

1
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Computer Trivia Game

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 11:03 PM 6/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >I'm a trivia freak, and computer trivia's fun. Old computers are great Anyone remember a trivial-pursuit-like Computer Trivia game? It was being touted at one of the last West Coast Computer Faires here in San Francisco. Anyone have a copy? --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

1
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Lisa's scores

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 08:38 AM 6/25/97 -0400, you wrote: >technical - foul - It seems that the Lisa should do better here, but I > really think the engineers blew it. The original OS is too innovative, > so much that the computer is nearly unuseable. I wouldn't think that "too innovative" would result in a lesser rating for "technical" aspects (at least in the realm of computer history/collecting; the "real" world is a different matter (see "success"...)) --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

1
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Convergent Technology Computers

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 11:33 PM 6/24/97 -0400, you wrote: >And don't forget the Workslate from Convergent. It was the slickest laptop Anyone know where to find one of these? I'd sure like to add one to my collection! --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

1
0
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Apple II (wasDumpster Diving)

by BigLouS＠aol.com

In a message dated 97-06-22 05:13:35 EDT,maynard(a)jmg.com (J. Maynard Gelinas) wrote: > I have an opportunity for an original Apple II. Keyboard > works, the system prom boots, but unfortunately he lost the disk > controller. He still has the old full height 5 1/4" drive, however. This > thing is quite dirty, and a few keys will have to be cleaned carefully > with alchol, but it looks good. I'm curious to know if I need to find > anything other than the floppy controller. Didn't Microsoft Basic come on > a prom card? Or was that on the floppy controller card? Or was there at > one point a mixed controller/BASIC card? Any Apple disk II controller will work. Apple originally offered an Integer basic card (which contained integer basic in rom) for the Apple II+ series. This solution was replaced by the 16K language card in slot 0. As part of the boot up sequence DOS 3.3 would determine which basic was resident in rom and load the other basic into the 16K on the language card. There was no mixed controller/basic card. Language cards are plentiful and cheap so you should have no trouble finding one. Hope this helps. Lou

28 years, 9 months

1
0
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pieces of metal and plastic

by IVIE＠cc.usu.edu

> Remember it? If it's what I am thinking of, I was doing it a couple of > weeks ago. You are talking about a 'Coconut', right (explanation of that > codename also on request - it has _nothing_ to do with the Tandy CoCo). > Nowadays I do something similar. I create a GROB with the right bit > patterns, use the SystemRPL 'Get' routine to remove the header, and thus > create new objects. Wouldn't it be easier to create the object on something else (like that PDP-11 sitting in the corner) and then just download it using Kermit? I built a set of macros for M80 to create Chip-8 code I could download >from my DECmate, but I never cobbled together a real assembler for the beast... Roger Ivie ivie(a)cc.usu.edu

28 years, 9 months

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pieces of metal and plastic

by manney＠nwohio.nwohio.com

Why do I play with old computers? I love collecting oddball stuff, just to consider what people could do...in what directions the industry could have gone. I play with old software (Visicalc, Concurrent DOS, and others) and trace their influences on today's WINtel products...and you know? as clunky as those old programs are, today's software is a direct descendant of many classic programs. I'm a trivia freak, and computer trivia's fun. Old computers are great trivia. (here's a good one for everyone...does anyone remember "synthetic programming"? Explanation on request.) I recondition old PC's, because -- then -- it puts an *affordable* PC into someone's hands. Unused machinery distresses me. Good machinery trashed makes me really ill. Why do we (USA) throw so much away? I loved computers from my first programmable calculator (1978...a TI-58). I lusted after many higher-priced units of the day. I can satisfy my ex-lusts now for -- sometimes -- a few bucks. I see the earlier stuff I have on the shelf increasing in value. Hey I'm not in business for my health! And...so you watch TV in the evening. Well, I hate TV and don't watch it. Does that make it bad? I read old issues of Punch Magazine, sci-fi and play with old machines. We all should have *something* different to do, or else we'd be alike, and who would I talk to, to keep me interested?

28 years, 9 months

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CLASSICCMP digest 90

by ghjorth＠sn.no

Would someone please remove me from this list. Thank you.

28 years, 9 months

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CLASSICCMP digest 94

by ghjorth＠sn.no

Will someone take me off this list.

28 years, 9 months

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Archiving Stuff

by bill＠booster.bothell.washington.edu

Hi all. Consider Classiccmp Web/FTP open for your archiving pleasure ;). The process has been more or less tested out and is ready to go. Submissions of Software, Documentation, ROM code, whatever are all OK. What really remains to be done is to work out standards for file formats. I'll let those of you who are experts on specific platforms argue that out. I'll follow whatever ensues and firm up some guidelines. To submit something you need to download the form DS-form.txt from the FTP site (140.142.225.27) and fill it out to the best of your ability. Follow the instructions at the bottom of the form for uploading. All the form does is provide evidence (if anyone ever complains) that I'm not just uploading copyrighted material without a care. Anyway - if you're itching to archive stuff feel free. Your comments are welcome and also unavoidable ;) Bill ---------------------------------------------------- Bill Whitson - Classic Computers ListOp bill(a)booster.u.washinton.edu or bcw(a)u.washington.edu http://weber.u.washington.edu/~bcw

28 years, 9 months

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Computer Documentation

by rcini＠msn.com

Marvin: I, too, like to have documentation for my various holdings. I have copies of the service manuals for the Radio Shack Model I, the Commodore PET 4032, the VIC-20 and (I think) the VIC 1541 floppy drive. I'd like to get copies of the schematics for the Altair, the IMSAI, and anything related to the System 23/Datamaster. If you need these, I can have copies made. As far as ROMs are concerned, maybe we can start a "ROM Archive" database/repository. Members with EPROM programmers could make copies of known-good ROMS from various machines at the request of other members. However, there is a major pitfall: version control. Unless someone has an idea as to which ROM versions go with each hardware revision, there is a risk of incompatibility. Although, what's the worst that can happen -- it doesn't work. As far as Copyright concerns, I don't think that there are any. First, many of our target companies are out of business. Second, we are not selling these chips (and the software contained therein) in a commercial sense. Third, they're being used as a one-for-one replacement for defective firmware. I view it like a diskette: I own Norton Utilities with a bad disk 1. My friend also owns Norton Utilities, and he makes me a copy of his disk 1. Both of us have valid software licenses because we both bought the program. It's like preservation of matter. Rich Cini/WUGNET - MCPS Windows 95/Networking - ClubWin Charter Member Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:56:15 -0700 From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu Subject: Computer Documentation Message-ID: <33B0346F.3FFC(a)rain.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the things *I* like to have available is the documentation, particularly schematics, on the things that I have. As such, there are docs and schematics on quite a bit of stuff here but there are also a lot of holes. I'm not sure how the copyright laws apply to machines where the company has ceased to exist, but it would be great to be able to exchange documentation as needed. Things I have machine schematics on include:

28 years, 9 months

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pieces of metal and plastic

by allisonp＠world.std.com

> What worries me is that in a lot of cases, the older machines are more > useable than the modern Wintel equivalents. This applies both to a new > user (somebody who just wants to write 2 page letters does _NOT_ (or > should not) need a 166MHz Pentium with 16Mbytes of RAM), and to 'hackers' > who want to understand their machines. It's possible for one person to > complete understand both the hardware and software of most classic > computers - something that (IMHO) is not possible with a Wintel box. Same here. In reality I use my s100 crate, ampro, and sb180 to produce 8048/9 and 8051 code as they really are faster and easier to use. Also being as I have them interconnected it's easier to blast proms in the s100 crate. Efficient, very! I've had nearly 20 years to refine the code and tools! I have the advantage of having source code for those tools so and long latent bugs are easily squashed. This is not doable on PCs. I still do my banking/checkbook on the kaypro! Faster than the PC overall. Allison

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Help identifying ...

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Yes, it is. Kai > ---------- > From: Stefan Walgenbach > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 10:13 AM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: Help identifying ... > > Hi, > > today I got a special german (?) computer. It is a "SIEMENS PC100". > But inside > there is a board labled "R6500 ADVANCED INTERACTIVE MICROCOMPUTER" > it is made by "ROCKLWELL" with a small (thermo?) printer a one-line > display. Is this one of the legendary AIM65-Machines? >

28 years, 9 months

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MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc.

by thedm＠sunflower.com

Im in kansas and have a spare TI994a with powersupply but no RF box. ---------- > From: Stefan Walgenbach <walgen(a)do.isst.fhg.de> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: RE: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. > Date: Thursday, June 26, 1997 8:46 AM > > > > ---------- > From: Cord Coslor[SMTP:coslor@pscosf.peru.edu] > Reply To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sent: Thursday, June 26, 1997 2:50 PM > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers > Subject: MSX, TRS-80, Colour Genie, etc. > > > > I am located in central Nebraska, USA, and am looking for the following to > > add to my collection. If you have these systems or might be able to get > > them for me at a reasonable price, PLEASE e-mail me. > > > > MSX computer > > Colour Genie > > TI 99/4a > > I have a Colour Genie and a Sony HitBit HB75 and also a Ti99/4A > as I live in germany sending the TI99/4A makes no sense but if you > are interested in the other items drop me a note. I would like to > swap them on a "I send them to you and pay on my own and you send > me some other stuff and pay for the shipping". What do you think? > > Here my URL for some other stuff I have to trade: > > http://192.102.161.122/~walgen/ >

28 years, 9 months

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Convergent Technology Computers

by thedm＠sunflower.com

Are those DOS machines, or are those the BTOS/CTOS type I used to run in the military? ---------- > From: Sam Ismail <dastar(a)crl.com> > To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: Convergent Technology Computers > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 1997 1:31 AM > > On Tue, 24 Jun 1997, Commercial Computing Museum wrote: > > > And don't forget the Workslate from Convergent. It was the slickest laptop > > around in 1984. Small LCD screen but built in voice digitization and voice > > mail system! No disk, only min-cassette. > > I see one all the time at my local swap meet but always pass it up. I > found a program micro-cassette at a thrift shop and decided I'm going to > pick this thing up next swap meet. Sounds real neat. > > Sam > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass

28 years, 9 months

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Historical Research

by ccm＠sentex.net

This is just information. I completed a reference tool that accomplishes most of this for computers built between 1950 and 1979. It's called Domestic Commercial Computing Power Between 1950 & 1979 (DCCP). It doesn't include statistical data, but it does list every make and model of computers built or sold by North American computer companies. It was self-published, but you'll find reviews in upcoming issues of the Annals, Analytical Engine, and the CBI newsletter. It's not available on the web and I have no plans for that, but I am trying to make a CD version that would include photographs, commercials/promotional video clips, sales literature, etc. We could use a similar tool for the years 1980 onwards for commercially available computers, but also for military computers, industrial control computers, programmable communication controllers, etc. Yours in good faith. Kevin Stumpf ------------------------------------- I'm working on my signature file.

28 years, 9 months

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This weekend's haul

by ds_spenc＠alcor.concordia.ca

I just started paying attention to garage sales this month, because of this list and because my traditional computer supply (Salvation Army) has dried up. I'm very glad I have! Last weekend was my first trip out, but I only managed to find two sales (one of which was in the paper) but this weekend the garage sale season seems to have begun in earnest. There were only two sales listed in the paper for my little town, and one of these was just up the street and around the bend, so I went there first. I ended up buying an Apple /// for $2 and carrying it home on my bicycle! (Not an easy task). I then went back for the cheap green Amdek monitor for another $2, because I have far more computers than monitors. I had to ask if there were any disks to go with the machine, and I was handed a box that I went through until I found one with a label that read "Apple ///", so I knew the disks matched the computer. There were no manuals. After plugging the thing in at home and finding that the beast worked, I went out again. I must've visited five more places (by following signs on telephone poles) before I came across the next thing that was mildly interesting: a Commodore filing cabinet with the chicken-lips logo. Not exactly related to this group, I suppose, and not the kind of thing I collect, but interesting nonetheless. Several stops later I hit the jackpot. Not for me, so much, but for a friend of mine who is out of school, out of work, bored, and constantly coming over to my place to play video games on my computers. :) This was obviously the home of a computer nerd like myself, as there was a complete Apple ][+ clone system and a complete Commodore 64 system for sale, as well as a large box full of books. I picked up four books: "The Explorers Guide to the ZX81", "Timex/Sinclair Interfacing", Jim Butterfield's "Machine Language for the Commodore 64, 128, and Other Commodore Computers", and the "Commodore 64 Troubleshooting & Repair Guide". I also picked up a complete(?) boxed GEOS 2.0 set (which probably should've stayed with the 64 system, come to think of it) and the owner parted out the joystick for his Apple ][+ (mine fell apart years ago). Total cost was $10. I rode straight home from this place, called my friend, and had lunch. He showed up with his car, and we went back to that place together to pick up the C64 system. He got a boxed C64 (old brown one), boxed 1541, 1802 colour monitor, dot matrix printer with Commodore serial ports on it, 1351 mouse in box with docs, 300bps modem in box with docs, a couple of books, a hand-killing Atari joystick, a boxed copy of Atarisoft's "Track and Field" with 3-button arcade controller, and datasette, for $35. Then we went over to the next town, because there was supposed to be some huge 40-family sale at some apartment complex, but there wasn't anything interesting there (perhaps everything was gone by then). I spotted a sign for another garage sale on the next street, so we walked over there. There I picked up an Intellivision with 6 boxed cartridges (Sea Battle, Vectron, Sub Hunt, Utopia, Chess, Armor Battle) and a BIZARRE piece of IBM equipment: an external 5-1/4" floppy drive, model 4869. I figure someone important must have an opinion on the Commodore 64, because there was an earthquake (4.5 on the Richter scale) while we were setting it up to test it. :) Anyway, not everything was perfect. The Intellivision doesn't work 100%... background graphics are OK, but most of the games have totally munged sprites. It looks like the sprites are being read out of the wrong area of memory. Oh, and background graphics ARE screwed up in Sub Hunt as well... not that it really matters, as all of the docs for that game are in German for whatever weird reason. :) There was NO useful software for the Apple ///, only something called "Apple /// Utilities" that let me make a backup of itself. There was also an incomplete copy of Pascal 1.0. Going by the info I gleaned from checking out the system config saved on the Utilities disk, the system was set up to have two floppy drives and a hard drive, but I saw no signs of any extra stuff at the garage sale. There are TWO Apple /// Profile I/O boards in the machine, though, as well as a parallel printer card. The power supply of this machine makes a LOT of noise. Is it supposed to? I found out that there is a monitor built into the machine, too (press Control-OpenApple-Reset) but apart from dumping memory eight bytes at a time and the ability to change the values stored in bytes, I can't figure out if the monitor can do anything. Some of the hardware is very Apple ][ish, though... when romping through memory with the monitor, I of course stumbled into $C000 and beyond, and the speaker sounded in the correct place, and the screen switched to high-res mode. Is this thing just a glorified Apple ][ with an incompatible OS? I took the machine apart, too, and I found a place for a battery on the motherboard, with no battery or battery cover in it. Does the /// have a system clock? Oh, and it has 256K, and the chips are neat little brown chips with gold plates on their backs. 4164s. They look just like the ones in my weird PET expansion board, except that the pins aren't gold. I heeded the warning sticker and didn't open the power supply. :) There was a loose screw, and another spall flat piece of metal, roaming about inside the keyboard. :/ Does anyone know if the Apple ][+ or //e can be made to read/write Apple /// disks in any manner that would be useful for getting files to it? Or do I have to get software for it in actual disk form at first, before I can get the thing to do anything useful? Can the /// emulate a ][? Now, on the subject of that weirdo IBM 4869 disk drive... what does this plug into? The guy I bought it from said it was for an old PC. It has a 37-pin connector on the end of its cable. It's LARGER in two dimensions than even a Commodore 1541 drive. Its power switch is very high quality. :) Would this be a 160K drive? I haven't ripped it apart (yet) to see how many heads the thing has. Pretty cool day, though. It looks like I'll be doing this quite often in future. :) Doug Spence ds_spenc(a)alcor.concordia.ca

28 years, 9 months

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pieces of metal and plastic

by sinasohn＠crl.com

At 04:09 PM 6/24/97 +0000, you wrote: >Your lovely machines (whichever they are) live *only* because there >someone (you or another human person) to make it work and appreciate the >results. They *only* live in your (or somebody else's) mind. And that is >why their history is important because it's not their history that we >appreciate but the sentiments, feelings, joy and sadness of the people >who used them! What yer saying then, is, that we should collect to remember the impact each computer had on our individual lives and on the lives of the people around us, rather than simply because a machine is physically attractive, technically impressive, or financially successful. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad sinasohn(a)crl.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.crl.com/~sinasohn/

28 years, 9 months

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