Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> wrote:
>Before anyone can help you, you need to find out if the
>drive is soft or hard sectored.
Dwight (and Tony), thanks for the info.
It looks like both machines have only a hard sector (H17)
controller. All the disks I have are hard sector disks. It's
a bit mysterious why none of the HDOS disks will boot,
but the CP/M disks will. I would suspect bit rot, but when
I check out the CP/M format disks, they *all* seem to read
fine. I wonder if it has to do with the drive's rotational
speed? I'd like to calibrate it, but I'm afraid doing so
might destroy the disk I put in there. BTW, is there any place
left that sells hard sector floppy disks?
Or perhaps the CP/M file system had more error correction,
and thus CP/M is better able to recover flaky disks? These
disks are all 20 years old now, after all...
Dave
On Dec 1, 17:13, Peter Joules wrote:
> The motor doesn't move so plan B
> I have taken a known working drive out of a PCW and that doesn't spin up
> either. In both cases the LED which looks through the hole in the
> middle of the disk comes on and the LED on the front flashes briefly as
> the machine tries to access the drive.
>
> I suppose the next step is to check the voltages on the supply. There
> are 4 wires 1 red, one orange, and 2 black. Do you know what voltages
> are supposed to be on each, and relative to what?
Sounds like the +5V which powers the drive logic is OK, and the +12V for
the motor is AWOL. The black wires are the 0V returns for the two
supplies, and IIRC red is +5V and orange is +12V.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
I have a CPC6128 which reports that there is no disk in the drive when I
try to run a program or even |dir.
I have opened the box up and it looks as if the drive isn't spinning up.
Does anyone know about the internals of this (3") drive? I wonder if
there is a microswitch somewhere which is perhaps not making contact.
--
Regards
Pete
Our local government facilities offer 8200 format to whoever asks for it,
but they never offered 6250 BPI in the bureaus I occasionally visited. It's
actually fact that though they offer 8200 format, that's because it's a
common subset of what they use. I'm not sure that's the case with the
800NRZI or 1600PE formats they previously made available but I bought into
the 8mm stuff because of the media cost. The 8500 has twice the capacity of
the 8200 and the 8500C and 8505 have twice that. Currently used 8mm drives
have twice what they have and the newer ones not only have doubled that on a
112 meter tape, but quadrupled the transfer rates at the same time. Now,
the tape drives I see them using hold nearly 60 GB all on a cartridge of
which two will fit in your shirt pocket if you're not as fat as the average
American.
Now, wouldn't YOU rather carry a $5 cartridge in you shirt pocket rather
than 15 9-track reels, and how about buying them and storing them?
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Merchberger <zmerch(a)30below.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?)
>Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words:
>
>>Some years back, the GOV switched from 9-track to 8mm, using the Exabyte
>>8200 as its standard. This was because you could hold what was formerly
>>stored on a truckload of 9-track tape on a single cartridge which would
fit
>>in your pocket.
>
>A 2400foot tape at 6250tpi will give over 170 Meg or so, at my rough
>calculations... (as in not counting the BOT, EOT and stuff like that...)
>and even at 1600tpi it'll give over 43 Meg storage. An 8200 in
>noncompressed cartridge will store 2500 Meg, which produces equal storage
>to 15 9-tracks @ 6250tpi, or 58 tapes at 1600tpi.
>
>Having worked with the Gubbermint, I do know that they supported the
>6250dpi datarate (if you could...) and I've carried 15 2400foot 9-track
>tapes all at once when I worked in the tape library at EDS Auburn Hills
>back in '89-'90. Hardly a truckload to me... or am I a *lot* stronger than
>I think... ;-)
>
>I will admit that even back then, we used a lot more 3490 tapes, which
>could store 550Meg per cartridge (and we had 8-cartridge autoloaders...
>4Gig was a *lot* of storage way back then...).
>
>Cheers,
>Roger "Merch" Merchberger
>--
>Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
>Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
>
>If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
>disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin L. Anderson <kla(a)helios.augustana.edu>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 2:19 PM
Subject: Data Media Conversion -- commercial interest?
>A quick pair of questions to the list out of curiosity:
>
>Do you think there is much data out there on older storage
>media (paper tape, punch cards, 7-track tape, 9-track tape)
>that is waiting to be converted to newer (cd-rom, 8mm) media?
>
>Are there commercial firms that specialize in such transfers/
>conversions of data from older media to newer media?
>
In Ontario, Canada there is. Inside the government there are *still* some
old boxes using 9 track. We have to ship them out and get them converted
every so often. I know there are quite a few places that still accept 9
track tape data(even some banks).
john
PDP-8 and other rare mini computers
http://www.pdp8.com
>Regards,
>Kevin Anderson
>
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
>Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College
> Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325
>e-mail: kla(a)helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson(a)augustana.edu
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent
> the administration of Augustana College.
>
>
<I didn't mention it, but yes, there is the three-port MMJ adapter. I have
<one or two. The max ports on a MicroVAX 2000 is indeed 12. The DEC hot
???? no way. The base board does not have more than 4 usarts on it. Is
that an add in board?
<sheets specifically mention that if you want more ports, you must go to an
<Ethernet-based product. That's how I got my first uVAX-2000 - a local law
DECSERVER100/DS200 lat servers.
<lot and took home the VAX. I got an RD54, a 6Mb MicroVAX, a TK50Z-FA, the
<DHT32 serial adapter and an expansion box with RD53 for well under $100 (a
<the same time period, a refurbed RD54 was going for $500 from the resellers
My vax collection has:
3 VS3100/m10 (each has 24mb) plus two BA42 drive cases (each holds RZ56).
1 VS3100/m76SPX 32mb, RZ24, RZ25, RZ26 TLZ04 tape.
3 VS2000 (two with rd54 one with RD53 and one TK50Z)
1 BA123 based MicrovaxII (KA630) 16mb, 2 RD53, RZ56, RX50)
1 BA23 based MicrvaxII (ka630) 9mb, DHV11, TK50, RD54
All connected with 10b2 running DECnet.
<I put Ultrix on it and used it for Unix practice and as a faux-terminal
<server. I had this project to mount the guts in a monsterous AT case so th
<there was room for both RD drives in the same package (two power supplies)
<but I never finished it. I'll probably put all the stuff back in the
<original boxes when I work that far down the pile.
I have ultrix on RD53, not into running it, don't hate unix but it's not
my first choice.
<One problem I ran across with this particular box - the TK50 drive would
<munch tapes - the problem turned out to be the molex connectors on the
<drive motor cables. They would intermittently fail and the tape would
<spin freely in the drive or wouldn't energize to retract the tape. I lost
<more than one tape that way. I never did fix that drive - it's still
<awaiting new connectors.
My fix, skip the connectors, soldered connection.
Allison
<I did not see any directory commands to tell how much disk space is
<used/available. Are there any?
Yes.
$DIR dua0:[000000...]/size/total will give the size of each file and the
total used for the entire volume DUA0:. FYI: RD52 is 30mb (VMS formatted)
are you sure it's not an RD53 (71mb).
There si also DIR/free
<Nor did I see any FORMAT command. (Which at this point I want to AVOID,
INITialize dua0: Initializes a disk, sets up basic directories. Does
not however do a low level format (need diagnostics for that).
<because I don't understand the Backup process or target backup media
<capacity constraints. It sounds like backup clones the OS on the same driv
<in "renewed" and/or "rebuilt" files )
Thre are variations on that with command switches. For example backup/image
does an image backup meaning it's a block by block copy and the target needs
to be at least as large as the source (multiple volumes are possible).
Since your running an OLD copy of VMS you may not have what most people
expect for BACKUP functionality.
<According to Allison's prior post, should I assume this RD52 is a 30MB MFM
<non SCSI drive?
Correct.
<I also have a Plessy 6600/6700 system which has a 84MB-90MB drive which I
<think hangs on a DEC compatible SCSI controller.
??? no idea.
<(I believe the Plessy is an LSI-11/34 clone.)The Plessy also has a Cipher
<F880 1600 bpi 9-track tape drive connected.
Interesting but it's not a vax.
<Is there a chance I could Load the Hobby openVMS on either one, or both of
<these systems in a cluster?
The Plessy is not a VAX so no help there. MicrovaxI is not supported under
VMS7.2. You need a much older version though the license supports any
version you can find. I think you want VMS 4.7. NOTE: RD52 is way to small
and a RD53(70mb Microplus 1325) is required or better yet a RD54(159mb
MAXTOR 2190) if you can find one.
<It seems to me the more capable system would be the Plessy with larger HD
<and Tape Unit already installed, (However I have never booted it, and I
<have no Idea what OS currently resides on it.)
No idea, thats likely not a VAX.
<I believe someone gave an earlier response that the MicroVAX I was too
<small to run openVMS alone.
Depends on version. The big problem with a MICROVAXI is you can only cram
4mb of ram in it and if the disk controller is older RQDX2 your limited to
a RD53. You can fit a RQDX3 and that is half the size and will run a RD54.
But MOST versions of VMS past V5.4 are TOO BIG for a RD53 without much
tailoring and I forget the version that dropped MicrovaxI support but I
think it was V5.6.
If you want to run more modern version fo VMS a MicrovaxII, VS2000 or 3100
would be a better choice.
Allison
Hello,
I have a lovely C-64 with 1541 disk drive and original Commodore 300 baud
modem.. but no software for the modem. Is anybody willing to make me a
copy of some disk with the Comms program on it? Basic utilities would also
be appreciated. I've considered making a cable to write with the drive on
my linux box but it's just not worth the effort.
Thanks,
Kevin
One other thing . . . you may find that the easiest way in which to do what
you've described is to use a single-chip micro. There are some which even
have special features to help you.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Arfon Gryffydd <arfonrg(a)texas.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 9:07 AM
Subject: Re: Teleco Question... More on my devious plan....
>First, Thanks to all who have helped so far...
>
>
>I have some old modems (TRS-80, acoustic and etc.) which I would like to
>use (flashing LEDs are cool) so, I want to build a little telco emulator to
>interface with the modems in one of my Linux boxes.
>
>I figure an LM556 for the dial tone... A tone decoder for dialing... Not
>sure an easy way to decode pulse dialing.
>
>As for ring... I am thinking using two charged capacitors and switching
>them. That's the first method I came up with to limit the current cheaply.
>
>Any suggestions? I'd like to do this for less that $25.00.
>----------------------------------------
> Tired of Micro$oft???
>
> Move up to a REAL OS...
>######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ #
>#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /##
>####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /###
>###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |####
>##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|####
># ######
> ("LINUX" for those of you
> without fixed-width fonts)
>----------------------------------------
>Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com
>
>Slackware Mailing List:
>http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html
>I recently got my MicroVAX I up and running it's MicroVMS 4.1
>Is there a chance I could Load the Hobby openVMS on either one, or both of
>these systems in a cluster?
I would be surprised. I pulled back a bloody stump the last time I
mentioned the MicroVAX I to the VMS guys.
My original design concept for the Firefox QBus Adapter Module involved
having a dual-ported memory between the MBus and the QBus. The device
drivers would copy data to and from this memory before or after performing
DMA, as appropriate. This would have worked nicely and provided acceptable
performance. However, I made the mistake of describing the arrangement
to VMS people as "just like the MicroVAX I"; since the MicroVAX I doesn't
have a scatter/gather map, the device driver has to do this to cover that
lack. I was rudely informed that VMS no longer supported the MicroVAX I,
and good riddance.
So, the FQAM wound up being a really ugly and slow QBus adapter that worked
much more like the traditional QBus adapter.
Roger Ivie
ivie(a)cc.usu.edu
--- Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> wrote:
I wrote:
> > ...a MicroVAX 2000 would have many users, possibly on
> > the rare and optional 8-port serial expansion
> you forgot the 3 port adaptor, maybe you meant that. they are uncommon but
> rare is not quite true. With that adaptor you have 3 MMJ serial ports and
> the already present 25pin comm serial. I have one and it's handy.
I didn't mention it, but yes, there is the three-port MMJ adapter. I have
one or two. The max ports on a MicroVAX 2000 is indeed 12. The DEC hot
sheets specifically mention that if you want more ports, you must go to an
Ethernet-based product. That's how I got my first uVAX-2000 - a local law
firm was looking at expanding their arrangement past ten users and a printer.
I was brought in to spec an upgrade. When they saw the price, they switched
to a Novell network (which is why my friend brought me in; he sold them the
network). I was offered the system and I gave them a salvage price on it and
ten VT-320's. They were horrified at the size of my offer and said that they
could get a better deal somewhere else. A year later they called me back and
asked if I still wanted it. I dropped the offer to lower than half of what it
was previously and they accepted. Upon picking up the system, I drove across
town, sold the terminals to a friend's company for 90% of the price of the
lot and took home the VAX. I got an RD54, a 6Mb MicroVAX, a TK50Z-FA, the
DHT32 serial adapter and an expansion box with RD53 for well under $100 (at
the same time period, a refurbed RD54 was going for $500 from the resellers).
I put Ultrix on it and used it for Unix practice and as a faux-terminal
server. I had this project to mount the guts in a monsterous AT case so that
there was room for both RD drives in the same package (two power supplies),
but I never finished it. I'll probably put all the stuff back in the
original boxes when I work that far down the pile.
One problem I ran across with this particular box - the TK50 drive would
munch tapes - the problem turned out to be the molex connectors on the
drive motor cables. They would intermittently fail and the tape would
spin freely in the drive or wouldn't energize to retract the tape. I lost
more than one tape that way. I never did fix that drive - it's still
awaiting new connectors.
-ethan
=====
Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February.
Please send all replies to
erd(a)iname.com
__________________________________________________
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--- Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> wrote:
>
> <I just got mail from a friend in Virginia who is saving a MicroVAX 3100-90
> <for me that they are pitching out where he works (and he'll *deliver*, too!
>
> Thats a nice VAX!. I forget the URL of where to find vax performance
> numbers.
I was told 24 VUPs. Wahoo!
> <an external tape that, from his descriptions, I'm assuming is a TLZ30 or
> <similar. One minor catch - they filled the disk and it won't boot. I tak
>
> Never hard of that problem. I suspect soemthing else has happend.
Someone in my office brought in a clip from "Antique Trader" dated Nov 10,
1999. Featured in this rag was "An Introduction to Collecting Computers" by
our fellow collector Kevin Stumpf.
The only inacurracy was in the "Lists and Newsgroups" section where it said
"Send an email to *Error! Bookmark not Defined*". This was supposed to be a
plug for the CC list but, got mangled before going to press :-(
All in all, a very nice article... Way to go Kevin!
Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>
> And speaking of TK50, for the record, the external SCSI version is a
>TK50Z-FA (approved for the VAXstation/MicroVAX 2000) or a TK50Z-GA
>(newer firmware, external SCSI ID switch). I tried a -FA on a VAX 4200
>with a KZQSA SCSI board long ago, and I use one on my VAXsta 3138 now,
>and have never had a problem. Has anyone actually had a problem using a
>-FA in a modern environment? (That's "modern" compared to a 2000, of
>course.)
I had difficulty with the MicroVAX 2000 version of the TK50 when I used
it on a Firefox. When using the tape, the disks would all go into mount
verify. I assumed that the problem was the tape drive didn't know about
disconnect, but I never verified this.
Roger Ivie
ivie(a)cc.usu.edu
> I see not why not. Swap/page is just data. Booting is the only
>limitation of which I'm aware. Only one way to find out.
BTW, Herr Moeller also has a ROM patch which allows booting from a
SCSI disk.
Roger Ivie
ivie(a)cc.usu.edu
>> Yes, the first 3100's had MFM controllers, and half-height MFM drives
>> (RD31, RD32) in them. They also had a 34-pin floppy interface to a
>> non-SCSI RX23. Then came models that had *both* MFM and SCSI interfaces.
>> The latest ones had two SCSI interfaces, and used a SCSI-fied RX23 in
>> them.
> I've never seen anything more primitive than the ST506/SCSI
>controller. Was there really a non-SCSI board before that?
Yes.
> Even the
>earliest production ST506/SCSI boards in my experience lacked some or
>all of the 20- and 34-pin connectors for the ST506 disks
The non-SCSI disk controller is a ST506/SCSI board unpopulated in
the *other* direction - it lacks the SCSI chip and connectors, but
has the ST506 parts. There's a plain metal flange on the rear where the
external SCSI connector would be.
There are also, of course, 3100's without any disk controller in them
at all.
> The potential of DUA0 and DUA1 explains why the RX23 floppy is DUA2.
>I always assumed that DUA3 would be the other half of an RX50, if it
>were ever supported, but that was only an assumption. The firmware on
>my 3100 systems seemed bewildered by an RX33, so I never bothered trying
>an RX50.
I never got around to trying that particular combination (though I did
have a RX50 hooked to a VS2000 - it worked fine under VMS, but evidently
the built-in firmware didn't like it.)
>> True, the RX23 doesn't have a lot of use. You can't even (officially)
>> build a standalone backup kit on it.
> I modified the V6.2 STABACKIT to build a kit on (three) RX23
>floppies, but some older firmware couldn't handle booting from them.
>V1.5 is good, possibly V1.4 also, as I recall. Faster booting than from
>a TK50. (Toggle switches would be _about_ as fast as a TK50.)
Even faster, build standalone backup on a hard drive :-).
If you want to see slow, remember the process of building standalone
backup on TU58's on a 11/750 or 11/730? We're talking most of a *day*!
No wonder we've tried to erase those times from our memories :-).
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
<> Hmmm, what if said 2000 is part of a cluster and boots off a cluster disk
<> would you then be able to use a SCSI disk as a swap disk?
<
< I see not why not. Swap/page is just data. Booting is the only
<limitation of which I'm aware. Only one way to find out.
Doing that you would MOP boot from a cluster member then install the
extendded page and swap for the local disk. If all your doing is that
then any drive over 20mb (but not ST225 or 251 as they are slow!) will
do in the MFM slot. In the past I've found RD52s (quantum D540 30mb)
are a good choice for that service as they are fast and bullet proof.
Allison
<> --- sms(a)antinode.org wrote:
<> > Herr Moeller's PK2K SCSI port driver for the 2000 should help total sto
<> > but the firmware still needs an RDxx from which to boo
<
<Hmmm, what if said 2000 is part of a cluster and boots off a cluster disk,
<would you then be able to use a SCSI disk as a swap disk? As time
<progresses such a configuration would probably be the best to keep 2000's
<running.
that is only one possible configuration. Anyine that know MV2000 knows a
small SCSI disk will fit in the area above the PS. that and a RD53/54 you
have a very complete system. Or you can use any MFM for local swap and
page with NIcluster (LAVC).
A good use for the VS2000 in small environments with networking is modem
gateway, Print server or terminal server to anyother node.
Allison
<I just got mail from a friend in Virginia who is saving a MicroVAX 3100-90
<for me that they are pitching out where he works (and he'll *deliver*, too!
Thats a nice VAX!. I forget the URL of where to find vax performance
numbers.
<an external tape that, from his descriptions, I'm assuming is a TLZ30 or
<similar. One minor catch - they filled the disk and it won't boot. I tak
Never hard of that problem. I suspect soemthing else has happend.
<it I can conversational-boot it and use the console as the startup file to
<wrest control from the system in the earliest stages, then, at least, purg
Likely you can assuming the disk is even there at all. If all else fails
drop in a 200-400mb scsi drive and install VMS 7.2 (hobby license) and
go on that. Once up you can mount the offending drive and see.
<Did I miss anything? Is there a publish procedure for recovering from tota
<full disks, or will I have to go back to the manuals and remember how to d
Never seen that failure.
Allison
<The idea was that a VAX*station* would have a primary user and would only
<get a two user license (one for the serial port on the back, presumably
<for emergencies) and a MicroVAX 2000 would have many users, possibly on
<the rare and optional 8-port serial expansion, possibly on a terminal serve
<This way, you could get more money for the same software on the assumption
<that more potential users means more latitude to charge for software.
your forgot the 3 port adaptor, maybe you meant that. they are uncommon but
rare is not quite true. With that adaptor you have 3 MMJ serial ports and
the already present 25pin comm serial. I have one and it's handy.
Allison
Slashdot has a link to an MSNBC story about the Russians restarting reactor
#3 at the Chernobyl plant in the Ukraine. They need the power but can't
afford a new reactor.
Sounds like a fun place to work, eh? ^_^
-------
From: healyzh(a)aracnet.com
> > --- sms(a)antinode.org wrote:
> > > Herr Moeller's PK2K SCSI port driver for the 2000 should help total
> > > storage, but the firmware still needs an RDxx from which to boot
>
> Hmmm, what if said 2000 is part of a cluster and boots off a cluster disk,
> would you then be able to use a SCSI disk as a swap disk?
I see not why not. Swap/page is just data. Booting is the only
limitation of which I'm aware. Only one way to find out.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven M. Schweda (+1) 651-645-9249 (voice, home)
1630 Marshall Avenue #8 (+1) 612-754-2636 (voice, work)
Saint Paul MN 55104-6225 (+1) 612-754-6302 (facsimile, work)
sms(a)antinode.org sms(a)provis.com (work)
--- sms(a)antinode.org wrote:
> Herr Moeller's PK2K SCSI port driver for the 2000 should help total storage,
> but the firmware still needs an RDxx from which to boo
Ah ha! A *real* reference to the elusive SCSI driver. Is there a web page
for this?
Thanks,
-ethan
=====
Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February.
Please send all replies to
erd(a)iname.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
I just got mail from a friend in Virginia who is saving a MicroVAX 3100-90
for me that they are pitching out where he works (and he'll *deliver*, too!)
Where can I go to learn more about specific models of 3100s? He mentions
that it has either 64 or 128Mb of RAM, a 500Mb and 1Gb scsi disk, DAT and
an external tape that, from his descriptions, I'm assuming is a TLZ30 or
similar. One minor catch - they filled the disk and it won't boot. I take
it I can conversational-boot it and use the console as the startup file to
wrest control from the system in the earliest stages, then, at least, purge
the SYS$MANAGER area of old log files to leave enough room to perform a full
boot (and clear the SYSTEM password while I'm at it ;-)
Did I miss anything? Is there a publish procedure for recovering from totally
full disks, or will I have to go back to the manuals and remember how to do
it from scratch? I've been away from VMS for the past couple of years. All
I've really done recently is log on and run some ancient DCL scripts. Now
back in the old days, I used to assemble 11/730's from piles of parts,
reconstruct console tapes, write system programs and devices drivers, etc., but
never with anything newer than an 8530. Our "main" machines were an 11/750
w/12Mb RAM, SI9900, Fuji Eagle, RA81, etc., etc. and an 8300 w/16Mb RAM, KDB50,
RA81, etc. No Ethernet; all 56Kb sync serial DECnet. :-P
Cheers,
-ethan
=====
Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February.
Please send all replies to
erd(a)iname.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
From: Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com>
> > Herr Moeller's PK2K SCSI port driver for the 2000 should help total storage,
> > but the firmware still needs an RDxx from which to boo
> Ah ha! A *real* reference to the elusive SCSI driver. Is there a web page
> for this?
Try "http://ftp.gwdg.de/pub/vms/pk2k/".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven M. Schweda (+1) 651-645-9249 (voice, home)
1630 Marshall Avenue #8 (+1) 612-754-2636 (voice, work)
Saint Paul MN 55104-6225 (+1) 612-754-6302 (facsimile, work)
sms(a)antinode.org sms(a)provis.com (work)
I hooked up a uVAX 2000/VS 2000 issue external TK50-Z to my VS 3100 once
to build a OpenVMS 7.2 hobbyist standalone backup kit and it worked
great (to my pleasant surprise... wasn't sure if it would or not :)
-Sean Caron (root(a)diablonet.net)
Someone wrote:
> >stuff to get it working. Those were the days and I kind of miss it.
> >Those golden days were great. That got me to think if there was a way to
> >hook up a tape player (cassette) to an IBMPC to mimick it. Has anyone
> >tried this.....
Zane replied:
> Wait a minute.... How do people read stuff like VIC-20 cassette tapes into
> the computer to use in emulators? That's what you need to look into if you
> want to try something like this.
Speaking for the Timex/Sinclair community, most of us use sound-card
utilities whereby we can load or save programs and/or data using a cassette
recorder. For the zx81, there is actually a utility which sends an audio
signal out the PC's parallel port, to be directly loaded into a zx81 or saved
on tape for use later.
If you wish, I could direct you to the authors of these utilities -- one of
them may be interested in helping you solve this problem.
Regards,
Glen Goodwin
0/0
It's no secret that Roger Merchberger <zmerch(a)30below.com previously has
uttered:
-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Merchberger <zmerch(a)30below.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?)
>Rumor has it that Richard Erlacher may have mentioned these words:
>
>>Our local government facilities offer 8200 format to whoever asks for it,
>>but they never offered 6250 BPI in the bureaus I occasionally visited.
>
>We sent off 6250dpi tapes quite often... I suppose it's a regional thing.
>
>>The 8500 has twice the capacity of
>>the 8200 and the 8500C and 8505 have twice that.
>
>On the 8505 / 8500C - your doubled capacity depends on the compression
>ratio... if you achieve a 2:1 compression, you have indeed doubled your
>storage. On the 8505's I worked on, I normally achieved 1.7:1.
>
>> Currently used 8mm drives
>>have twice what they have and the newer ones not only have doubled that on
a
>>112 meter tape, but quadrupled the transfer rates at the same time. Now,
>>the tape drives I see them using hold nearly 60 GB all on a cartridge of
>>which two will fit in your shirt pocket if you're not as fat as the
average
>>American.
>
>Well, that limits me to one... assuming that I'm as fat as an average
>American... (how fat is the average American???) Anywho, I'm ~25lb
>overweight thanks to 2 heart attacks & I've not made time to exercise. Is
>that average?
YES
>>Now, wouldn't YOU rather carry a $5 cartridge in you shirt pocket rather
>>than 15 9-track reels, and how about buying them and storing them?
>
>Actually, between the two, I'd rather have the 15 9-trackers... they're
>cool. Of course, I'd rather have 3490 cartridges & drive... they're even
>more cool. I can't *afford* the drives (new) and there's no used ones about
>to scavange / rescue / trade for, so 'll take what I can get...
>
>I'm not disputing the fact that the 8200's are superior / cheaper /
>whatever... I've worked with those, the 8505's pretty extensively & quite a
>few 4mm drives as well (just picked one up for myself to play with - it's a
>tra de...) I just disputed that an 8200 cart. held a "truckload" of
9-trackers.
I was, when I made the original remark, grossly hyperbolizing, but in the
spirit of "Why the h*ll didn't they do that much sooner?" My 8505XL
routinely gets about the 1.7x compression from hardware compression and
somewhat improves the already-compressed data it gets from the old backup
software. One volume, mostly text, gets bout 2.2x, though. My 160 meter
tapes are adequate for a nominally 15GB system backup. I find that so long
as I (or my clients) have backup devices which allow the entire backup set
to be recorded on a single element of the medium in question, they have good
backups whenever they're needed. With the ones requiring manual media
shuffling, all bets are off.
Dick
>Prost,
>Roger "Merch" Merchberger
>--
>Roger "Merch" Merchberger --- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
>Recycling is good, right??? Ok, so I'll recycle an old .sig.
>
>If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead
>disarmament should *not* be your first career choice.
There's actually a more precise spec for the tip and ring voltages. If you
really want it, I can look up my old textbooks and give it to you, but first
of all, the tip-ring (battery) voltage is -48 volts, where tip is close to
ground. The ring voltage is a somewhat larger AC voltage, normally at about
20 Hz centered about RING such that there's about an 80-volt positive going
pulse with respect to tip, but symmetical about RING. The actual voltage
can vary quite a bit, but at the ends, where it enters your house, tip is AC
referenced to earth. That's probably enough info for most purposes. IIRC,
the off-hook AC signal (speech) is about 4-8 volts into 600 ohms.
That's not terribly precise, but if you need better, I can dig out some
references.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel T. Burrows <dburrows(a)netpath.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: Teleco Question...
>
>
>Q1: Can anyone tell me the two tone that make up dial tone?
>330 and 440 IIRC
>Dan
>Q2: What's the ring voltage (p-p) and frequency? 90Vpp? 10cyc?
>90v 20 hz
>Q3: What's the off hook and on hook line Voltage? 9VDC and 45VDC?
>about right IIRC
>
>Dan
>
--- Jim Strickland <jim(a)calico.litterbox.com> wrote:
> There are some substantial disadvantages to the 2000s. The biggest is they
> want MFM disks, which are hard to find these days. 3100s are SCSI machines.
And, MFM drives never got above ~150Mb. I have several RD54's just to keep
my MV2000's alive.
> Er. Let me qualify that and say VaxStation 2000s want MFM drives. Don't
> know about MicroVax 2000s.
Same thing. The hardware internally is identical. The difference is a
jumper to tell the hardware whether to use the framebuffer or not. From
an OS standpoint, moving the jumper gives a different model number, IIRC.
(KA-610 vs KA-630 or something like that, I forget the exact numbers).
The idea was that a VAX*station* would have a primary user and would only
get a two user license (one for the serial port on the back, presumably
for emergencies) and a MicroVAX 2000 would have many users, possibly on
the rare and optional 8-port serial expansion, possibly on a terminal server.
This way, you could get more money for the same software on the assumption
that more potential users means more latitude to charge for software.
-ethan
=====
Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February.
Please send all replies to
erd(a)iname.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
Q1: Can anyone tell me the two tone that make up dial tone?
330 and 440 IIRC
Dan
Q2: What's the ring voltage (p-p) and frequency? 90Vpp? 10cyc?
90v 20 hz
Q3: What's the off hook and on hook line Voltage? 9VDC and 45VDC?
about right IIRC
Dan
From: Tim Shoppa shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
> >Didn't the very first 3100's have MFM controllers? I could have sworn that
> >I've heard that they did, but I've never seen such a beast.
> Yes, the first 3100's had MFM controllers, and half-height MFM drives
> (RD31, RD32) in them. They also had a 34-pin floppy interface to a
> non-SCSI RX23. Then came models that had *both* MFM and SCSI interfaces.
> The latest ones had two SCSI interfaces, and used a SCSI-fied RX23 in
> them.
I've never seen anything more primitive than the ST506/SCSI
controller. Was there really a non-SCSI board before that? Even the
earliest production ST506/SCSI boards in my experience lacked some or
all of the 20- and 34-pin connectors for the ST506 disks, but after I
added the connectors, I got an RD54 to work with one (for entertainment
only). The TEST 7x formatter looked to be on a multi-day jaunt when I
aborted it, but otherwise it was swell. Later, I found some (presumably
later production) ST506/SCSI boards which were missing a few 8-pin DIP
IC's and a few passive parts, no doubt saving a few dollars, but leaving
only the floppy interface intact.
The potential of DUA0 and DUA1 explains why the RX23 floppy is DUA2.
I always assumed that DUA3 would be the other half of an RX50, if it
were ever supported, but that was only an assumption. The firmware on
my 3100 systems seemed bewildered by an RX33, so I never bothered trying
an RX50.
> True, the RX23 doesn't have a lot of use. You can't even (officially)
> build a standalone backup kit on it.
I modified the V6.2 STABACKIT to build a kit on (three) RX23
floppies, but some older firmware couldn't handle booting from them.
V1.5 is good, possibly V1.4 also, as I recall. Faster booting than from
a TK50. (Toggle switches would be _about_ as fast as a TK50.)
And speaking of TK50, for the record, the external SCSI version is a
TK50Z-FA (approved for the VAXstation/MicroVAX 2000) or a TK50Z-GA
(newer firmware, external SCSI ID switch). I tried a -FA on a VAX 4200
with a KZQSA SCSI board long ago, and I use one on my VAXsta 3138 now,
and have never had a problem. Has anyone actually had a problem using a
-FA in a modern environment? (That's "modern" compared to a 2000, of
course.)
As for the smallest VAX, I'd vote for the VAXstation 3100 (model 38,
WS42-xx, is faster than the original model 30, VS42-xx), as the
smallest, practical, bargain system. A minimal 2000 is smaller, but add
an external disk drive and the 2000 is bigger, and any 3100 with even
one decent SCSI disk beats it easily for storage and speed. (It's not
hard to beat two RD54 drives, unless all you have is RD53 drives.) Herr
Moeller's PK2K SCSI port driver for the 2000 should help total storage,
but the firmware still needs an RDxx from which to boot (or an RX33 for
Standalone BACKUP). The 3100 permits more memory and better graphics,
too. I'm not throwing away my 2000, but I wouldn't start with one
today, unless it fell on me (as my first one did).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Steven M. Schweda (+1) 651-645-9249 (voice, home)
1630 Marshall Avenue #8 (+1) 612-754-2636 (voice, work)
Saint Paul MN 55104-6225 (+1) 612-754-6302 (facsimile, work)
sms(a)antinode.org sms(a)provis.com (work)
<Didn't the very first 3100's have MFM controllers? I could have sworn tha
<I've heard that they did, but I've never seen such a beast.
Yes they did... SCSI to MFM bridges.
<One with a TLZ30 (Tape drive for TK50's) or a CD-ROM would be nice. Mine
<has the RX23, and I quite honestly have no idea what use the floppy drive
<is.
Well a SCSI Cdrom is easy enough to find all it has to do is support
variable length block sizes, many do. TK50GAs (or is it FZs) work with
them too as do TLZ04s, a slew of DLTs and SCSI tapes.
Allison
Some years back, the GOV switched from 9-track to 8mm, using the Exabyte
8200 as its standard. This was because you could hold what was formerly
stored on a truckload of 9-track tape on a single cartridge which would fit
in your pocket.
Since the GOV also loved DEC, I'd be very surprised to learn that there's no
practical implementation available of the EXB8200 on a DEC machine. These
drives are simple SCSI-1 and should work like any other tape drive. There
are probably some special hoops, DEC-isms, you have to jump through in order
to get it all to work, but I'll bet it's been done.
Those 8mm cartridges, BTW, cost less than almost any other medium. There
are larger-capacity drives, e.g. Exabyte 8205, 8500, 8500C, 8505, all of
which are SCSI-II, which have faster transfer rates and, in the case of th
8505xl, 8505, and 8500C, not to mention the libraries which host one or more
of these drives, they support hardware compression as well.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Megan <mbg(a)world.std.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, November 28, 1999 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: Obsolete media (was: Whats the screwiest thing you collect?)
>
>>IMHO, it makes little sense to retain media for washing-machine-sized
>>disk drives if you don't retain the drives and maintain them in order to
>>retain the value of the media. Hindsight is always 20/20, but wouldn't
>>it make sense to archive data/software on an archival medium, likely, we
>>hope, to remain useable over time, rather than to store it on what's
>>intended for on-line storage, and is likely to become obsolete within a
>>couple of years of when it was developed?
>
>Unless there is no equivalent... I've got the exact problem with the
>DECsystem-10 I got earlier this year... it came with two RP06 drives.
>They are 3-phase drives. We don't yet have three phase power (or a
>close approximation of it), so cannot run the drives. Without the
>drives, we cannot even load the microcode for the machine, so it is
>a very large paper-weight.
>
>I've been looking of a non-three-phase replacement for the drives, but
>we still would need three-phase to get the data off the disks I have.
>
>We have, however, been getting all the data off the tapes so as not
>to lose it.
>
>It would be great if there was a massbus interface for a more recent
>tape drive, and the same for a disk... it would be neat to be able to
>have a DAT tape acting like a TU77 or something supported by the machine,
>and a couple of SCSI or even IDE disks acting as RM03 or RP06 disks...
>
>(anyone know of any? Anyone up for the challenge of designing one?)
>
> Megan Gentry
> Former RT-11 Developer
>
>+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
>| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
>| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
>| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
>| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
>| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
>| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
>+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
>
>
>
><Didn't the very first 3100's have MFM controllers? I could have sworn tha
><I've heard that they did, but I've never seen such a beast.
>
>Yes they did... SCSI to MFM bridges.
My 3100's with MFM drive connectors inside them *do not* have a SCSI
to MFM bridge controller. If you hook up a RD32, it shows up to VMS
as DUA0:, not as a SCSI device.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
This is starting to resemble an argument for putting things on eBay before
scrapping them. If they're priceless, then someone will at least attempt to
buy them for somewhat less than that implies.
If nobody wants 'em badly enough to pay the packing, shipping, and
associated costs, plus the scrap value then, since it's too late to leave
'em inthe scrapyard, they need to be disposed of in some way, don't they?
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Rodrigo Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 2:00 AM
Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax
6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)
>
> You sound like someone who burns paintings just because you
>don't have space to store them, regardless from being priceless
>Picasso's... It's not very hard to understand the following facts:
> - the majority of this list subscribers are collectors, which
>means that they like collecting certain stuff.
> - everyone understands the difference between "storing" and
>"collecting". It's impossible to prevent all minis from the planet
>from being destroyed -- store all obsolete minis. However, collectors
>are available to save a necessarily small percentage from destruction,
>by collecting them. They do this because they *love* it.
> - the average storage capacity of collectors is usually not
>very high. Not everyone is able to own a VAX, and those who are, can't
>hold more than 1-2 of such machines. Now compare this storage capacity
>with the rate you get minis (you said about 40-50 a year).
> - you can't expect to come here saying "I crush 40 minis a
>year" without people becoming upset. I guess it breaks the heart of
>every collector (at least it breaks mine...).
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>--
>
>*** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt>
>*** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda
>*** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR:
>*** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa
>*** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL
>*** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585
<> >So. What's the *smallest* vax-11 (or other machine) that'll run vms?
<> >Wait...
<>
<> MicroVAX 2000. Slow by today's standards, but the size of a lunchbox a
<> *very* cheap.
<>
<> -Dave McGuire
<There are some substantial disadvantages to the 2000s. The biggest is they
<MFM disks, which are hard to find these days. 3100s are SCSI machines.
True... to a point there are SCSI drivers for the MV2000 for VMS as there
is a SCSI bus in it!
To be exacting the SCSI bus in complete but the boot roms will only
recognize the oddball TK50. There is a fellow that developed a SCSI drive
so VMS can also talk to SCSI drives.
Also the MFM controller will talk to RX33 floppy, and more than one RDxx.
ALL MV/VS3100s are SCSI some may have the TLZ30 tape or RX23 floppy in them.
<Er. Let me qualify that and say VaxStation 2000s want MFM drives. Don't k
<about MicroVax 2000s.
Same silly box.
Allison
>> ALL MV/VS3100s are SCSI some may have the TLZ30 tape or RX23 floppy in them.
>>
>Didn't the very first 3100's have MFM controllers? I could have sworn that
>I've heard that they did, but I've never seen such a beast.
Yes, the first 3100's had MFM controllers, and half-height MFM drives
(RD31, RD32) in them. They also had a 34-pin floppy interface to a
non-SCSI RX23. Then came models that had *both* MFM and SCSI interfaces.
The latest ones had two SCSI interfaces, and used a SCSI-fied RX23 in
them.
>One with a TLZ30 (Tape drive for TK50's) or a CD-ROM would be nice. Mine
>has the RX23, and I quite honestly have no idea what use the floppy drive
>is.
True, the RX23 doesn't have a lot of use. You can't even (officially)
build a standalone backup kit on it.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Rather than spinning this on this list. Why not check out the 2600 web
sight. I don't know what it is, maybe www.2600.com.
They'll know all these answers and it will be on topic for them...
-Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Arfon Gryffydd <arfonrg(a)texas.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 5:53 PM
Subject: Teleco Question...
>Q1: Can anyone tell me the two tone that make up dial tone?
>
>Q2: What's the ring voltage (p-p) and frequency? 90Vpp? 10cyc?
>
>Q3: What's the off hook and on hook line Voltage? 9VDC and 45VDC?
>----------------------------------------
> Tired of Micro$oft???
>
> Move up to a REAL OS...
>######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ #
>#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /##
>####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /###
>###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |####
>##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|####
># ######
> ("LINUX" for those of you
> without fixed-width fonts)
>----------------------------------------
>Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com
>
>Slackware Mailing List:
>http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html
>
<So. What's the *smallest* vax-11 (or other machine) that'll run vms?
<Wait...
Depending on what you mean by smallest (most minimal archetecture |
physically smallest) the answer would be MicrovaxI and MV2000.
<Actually, if someone wants to save me before heading down this *enticing*
<path. I'll trade all of the listed books for a 'First Book ok Kim'
Wouldn't mind having that one! or the vax books. ;)
Allison
I made a full list and here it is (with a picture of the system):
F6470A (2) - tape cartridge system, 16 carts @ 400MB each
M770 - main supercomputer(s) (looks like 4 cabinets), at least 100MB RAM,
MSP/EX , and XSP operating system (other operating systems as well). No idea
of speed, bus width, anything else... I do know both mainframes) were
connected together through a high speed data channel.
There seems to be some SUN 4-490 front-end computers. No idea on any more
than that.-- they look nice.
F1751E (2 of them) - 60? tapes X 400MB = huge tape cartridge unit. Total
storage ????
There are also some memory expanders?? a high speed 2000?LPM printer, disk
RAID arrays (5GB each).
I have found a few sites still using this supercomputer, one as a
meteorological satellite data processing system, an engineering lab,....
Here is a picture of what the system looks like (I will put up real pictures
soon):
http://www.pdp8.com/fujitsu.gif
The vax 6000 has:
RA81 - 3 units
RA81,RA82,RA82
TA81,TU81E
HSC 50-AA
Vax 6000-610
SA600
HSC-50
and....
1 pallet of power cords and system cables.
1 Omnigraphic Recorder. - 11 X 17" XY chart recorder. 2000CE
Well, it's sort of 'saved' already; this machine is sitting in my garage.
But, I'm planning a move, and it HAS to go sometime sooner rather than
later. And if it comes to it, 'later' might mean that it goes to the TIP.
That would be a shame. Unit looks in good condition, and had the heads
professionally parked before I grabbed it. Has a floppy drive (RD-50?) and
some tapes, too. I've never tried powering it.
Unit is in Sydney (Australia), and I'm sure hoping somebody wants it. I'd
feel rather bad seeing it junked.
Totally free, of course.
A
--
Andrew Davie adavie(a)mad.scientist.com // adavie(a)comcen.com.au //
adavie(a)bde.com.au
Museum of Soviet Calculators http://members.xoom.com/adavie/soviet.html
Slide Rule Trading Post http://www.comcen.com.au/~adavie/slide/
Vaxen have not been my gig but today I found several books. VAX
Architecture Reference Manual,VAXclusters, Computer Programming and
Architecture: The VAX-11, A Gentle Introduction to the VAX System, The VAX
Book, VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures, and Introduction toVAX/VMS.
This can only mean one thing. ;)
Actually, I've started reading VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures. Now I
know what a real operating system is. Alas.
So. What's the *smallest* vax-11 (or other machine) that'll run vms?
Wait...
Actually, if someone wants to save me before heading down this *enticing*
path. I'll trade all of the listed books for a 'First Book ok Kim'
Cheers all,
- Mike: dogas(a)leading.net
>Actually, I've started reading VAX/VMS Internals and Data Structures. Now I
>know what a real operating system is. Alas.
>
>So. What's the *smallest* vax-11 (or other machine) that'll run vms?
The smallest machine that'll run VMS is the "Tadpole" laptop, an Alpha.
You won't find them for free in junkpiles yet, at least! They're highly
in demand by those who want to demo Alpha/VMS software at trade shows,
customer sites, etc.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Hi to all you DEC-heads!
I recently picked up a big pile of DEC manuals. One of the things that I
found among them is a manual for IGOR (Interactive Graphic Operating
Resource) Internal Operations. It was published by Interactive Graphic
Systems in 1981 and is marked "Company Confidental". This is almost
certainly for use on a VAX. Does anyone know weather IGS or IGOR is still
around? Any thoughts about weather I should destroy this manual, keep it,
sell it or ?
Joe
If the drive is "intelligent" enough to perform writes, i.e. if it has a
local data buffer, then it's likely to have a master oscillator. Since it
has adjustments for "window" (probably related to FM clock recovery) and
"gap" probably limiting the write-turn-on/off gap lengths, i.e. the capture
window, allowing it to determine when it failed to "see" and address mark,
I'd suspect that those have gotten tweaked out.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>> >They'll be a master clock, probably also used for writing. Check this
>> >with a 'scope or frequency counter. If it's incorrect, find out why.
>> >
>>
>> Generally, there isn't a master clock. Among the drives I've been
working
>
>Not on a raw drive, sure. But this is a drive/controller combination, and
>it appears that at least some faults are in the controller section.
>
>Somebody's going to prove me wrong, but I've never seen a _controller_
>without some kind of master clock.
>
>> on over the past months, none had onboard oscillators with the exception
of
>> the microprocessor-controlled Mitsubishi. That's why there are one-shots
>> and the like. The writing is accomplished by using both outputs from a
>> flipflop which is toggled by every positive edge on the data stream which
is
>> generated on the controller.
>>
>
>Yep, sure for a plain drive....
>[And I agree with the PLL comments that I've deleted -- very few _drives_
>have a clock recovery PLL, but a lot of controllers do!]
>
>-tony
>
Please see embedded remarks below.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>> It's search algorithm is really funny too:
>>
>> Read Sector <-------------
>> If requested Sector <> address then |
>> If CRC not okay then ---------------------|
>>
It's not as odd as you may think. The CRC is for the ID field, so it's got
to keep trying to read the ID before it can determine whether it should read
the following data field. The controller doesn't have a fixed number of
retries, since the infinite loop, in the designers' opinion, allowed you to
poke around with your instruments looking for the problem, and is probably
as good as any other alternative. Remember, there's a CRC field after the
ID field, AND one after the data field. They both must pass check before
you get a valid sector.
This behavior is, however, quite consistent with a misadjusted PLL, or
whatever other mechanism they're using to extract the clock e.g. one-shots.
If someone has fiddled with the pots on the device, all bets are off as to
its ability to lock on the data. Since the data is synchronized differently
on every sector, it should be easy enough to determine whether lock occurs
just by triggering on the data stream while observing the PLL's oscillator.
Each sector should show a discrete and easily visible acquisition window.
Of course, that won't be the case with a naked but formatted diskette, since
its data and ID fields were written in one fell swoop, with no asynchronism
between sectors. However, if you format a new diskette on some OTHER and
WORKING compatible machine, writing a file to it will be a sector-by-sector
operation which will ostensibly have at least a short transient of phase
change reflecting the difference in phase between the relative position of
the diskette during formatting and during writing not to mention the minor
speed variations. In any case, you should, with your oscilloscope set up
properly, be able to watch a consisten acquisition of the data for each
sector. If you're not getting that, which is what I suspect, then your
error lies in that, the most basic task of a disk interface, without which
NOTHING else having to do with data transfer will work properly.
>> (you get the idea.. and infinite loop for most errors)
>
>Well, assuming it's getting into that loop, there's something to look at.
>Does it find a sector address? Does it match (and should it match --
>don't overlook a possible comparator problem). Does the CRC match? Should
>it? (again, don't overlook a possible problem with the logic here).
>
>Basically, you're in a loop (presumably stuck in some state(s) of a state
>machine). You should be thinking about the following :
>
>What signals can get it out of those states?
>Are they ever asserted?
>
>What events would cause them to be asserted?
>Do those events ever occur?
>What about the logic that detects said events and turns them into signals?
>
>-tony
>
>IMHO, it makes little sense to retain media for washing-machine-sized
>disk drives if you don't retain the drives and maintain them in order to
>retain the value of the media. Hindsight is always 20/20, but wouldn't
>it make sense to archive data/software on an archival medium, likely, we
>hope, to remain useable over time, rather than to store it on what's
>intended for on-line storage, and is likely to become obsolete within a
>couple of years of when it was developed?
Unless there is no equivalent... I've got the exact problem with the
DECsystem-10 I got earlier this year... it came with two RP06 drives.
They are 3-phase drives. We don't yet have three phase power (or a
close approximation of it), so cannot run the drives. Without the
drives, we cannot even load the microcode for the machine, so it is
a very large paper-weight.
I've been looking of a non-three-phase replacement for the drives, but
we still would need three-phase to get the data off the disks I have.
We have, however, been getting all the data off the tapes so as not
to lose it.
It would be great if there was a massbus interface for a more recent
tape drive, and the same for a disk... it would be neat to be able to
have a DAT tape acting like a TU77 or something supported by the machine,
and a couple of SCSI or even IDE disks acting as RM03 or RP06 disks...
(anyone know of any? Anyone up for the challenge of designing one?)
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
Hi,
My name is John Meshna. The son of the late John J. Meshn Jr., the Surplus mogel.
I saw your post. I'm flattered that my father's memory lives on.
We closed the company around 1988. He died in 1982. Thanks for keeping his memory alive. John
> Home | Collection
>
>
>
> Software | Mailing Lists
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> [Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
>
> Re: Keyboards
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> * To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
> * Subject: Re: Keyboards
> * From: Frank McConnell <fmc(a)reanimators.org>
> * Date: 06 Dec 1998 15:57:48 -0800
> * In-Reply-To: Stephen Dauphin's message of Sun, 6 Dec 1998 13:13:21 -0500 (EST)
> * References: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.981205235650.3615A-100000(a)osfn.org>
> * Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu
> * Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Stephen Dauphin <ai705(a)osfn.org> writes:
> > On a related note, wasn't there a electronics surplus dealer of some
> > sort, perhaps based in Massachusetts, called "Meshna"? I'm wondering if
> > someone knows whether they are still in business. Any web search turns
> > up nothing.
>
> Here's info from one of their 1988 catalogs:
>
> John J. Meshna Jr., Inc.
> 19 Allerton Street
> Lynn, MA 01904
> Tel: (617) 595-2275
>
> -Frank McConnell
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> * References:
> o Re: Keyboards
> + From: Stephen Dauphin <ai705(a)osfn.org>
>
> * Prev by Date: Scanning Fiche
> * Next by Date: Re: x86 OS's
> * Prev by thread: Re: Keyboards
> * Next by thread: Re: Keyboards
> * Index(es):
> o Date
> o Thread
>
>
>
>
> Created by: Kevan Heydon on Monday, 07-Dec-1998 15:10:16 PST
Hello,
I am looking for an inexpensive framebuffer PMAGB-BA for a Personal
DECstation 5000/20.
Some advices about good sources of DEC surplus ?
Regards.
J.-P. Hofer
I'm working with a device which has
poor documentation but it says the
printer port is compatible with
a TI Silent 700. Do you know
what baud rate, character length
and parity the Silent 700 used ?
Tom Hickerson
tom(a)automatedtech.com
I just got two Heath H89's to replace the one my parents
took to the dump 10 years ago while I was away at
college. Both these machines seem to work fine -- they
will boot CP/M and I can run programs, etc. One of
them is in absolute mint condition -- a real beauty.
However, the vast majority of the disks I have (circa 1979)
are HDOS disks. I would like to be able to read these
disks and use the software (e.g., Walt Bilofsky's C
compiler), but I can't get any of my bootable HDOS
disks to boot. Would anyone be willing to make me a
bootable HDOS disk and mail it to me? If so, I would greatly
appreciate it. Let me know by email (dmb(a)ai.mit.edu) if you
would be willing to volunteer. :)
I'm also looking for any of Evryware's interactive fiction
(text adventure) games for the H89. They had a whole
series of these games (starting with "A Remarkable
Experience") and I would like to resurrect them by porting
them to a modern platform. (Yes, there are still people
who like text adventures. See the Usenet newsgroup
rec.arts.int-fiction for ample evidence of this!)
Back in 1994, I ported Crowther & Woods' Adventure
>from the original FORTRAN source (for PDP-10, I believe)
to an object oriented language called TADS that was developed
specifically for text adventures. This port was quite popular
with the rec.arts.int-fiction crowd, and was itself ported
to various other platforms, including Infocom's Z-Machine.
I actually contacted one of the Evryware founders --
they're still making games -- but they said they don't
have any copies of their H89 stuff anymore. So if
anyone has them and would be willing to furnish copies,
please let me know.
Finally, does anyone know if it's possible to read/write
H89 disks in a PC? I mean, I know that the disk format
is radically different, but are PC 5 1/4" drives even physically
capable of doing this? It would be very nice to have a
PC-based program that could create H89 disks from
disk images, and I'd love to write one, but frankly I'm a
software guy and have no clue about the hardware side
of floppy disk formats. If anyone has any sage advice,
I'd be much obliged.
Dave Baggett
dmb(a)ai.mit.edu
please see comments embedded below.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 7:45 PM
Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>> It isn't alignment as I can manually move the head very slightly back and
>> forth which does affect the data coming into the controller assembly but
>> does not help it find the actual sector... Therefore, hardware or an
anlog
>> adjustment
>>
>> I would like an alignment disk so I can use "their" tuning procedure to
make
>> this drive work quickly. It has a number of adjustments including :
Clock,
>> window, gap, etc...
>
These are not the usual things for which you'd want an alignment diskette.
>
>Most alignment disks do not include such tests (I am not saying that the
>IBM one you asked for doesn't). They're just raw drive alignement disks
>with catseye patterns for aligning the radial position, an index timing
>burst, etc.
>
>If you think there's an electronic problem then you don't really need an
>aligment disk. Start with the spindle speed, which I assume is right
>since it almost certainly uses a mains-powered induction motor. Still, it
>can't hurt to check that the index pulses occur at the right frequency.
>
>They'll be a master clock, probably also used for writing. Check this
>with a 'scope or frequency counter. If it's incorrect, find out why.
>
Generally, there isn't a master clock. Among the drives I've been working
on over the past months, none had onboard oscillators with the exception of
the microprocessor-controlled Mitsubishi. That's why there are one-shots
and the like. The writing is accomplished by using both outputs from a
flipflop which is toggled by every positive edge on the data stream which is
generated on the controller.
>
>Then take a formatted disk (format one yourself on your old CP/M machine
>if you have to ;-)). Read a sector continously. Display the off-disk data
>on one trace of a 'scope and the read clock on another. Does the read
>clock seem to be the right frequency? Is it locked wrt the data? If not,
>look at that read PLL (or whatever it uses).
>
Again, most drives don't have PLL's on them, but rather leave that to the
controller. It does appear that this drive and controller may not be
entirely separate. The adjustments for "window" and "gap" do sound like
they are just trims on a one-shot, though. I've seen adjustments like that
on old hard disks. As you may recall, almost all the early FDD's had FM
clock/data separation on board. This drive is probably no exception.
>
>Index timing is either very important (if, for example, the controller
>expects to see an address mark as the first thing after an index pulse)
>or not at all important at this stage.
>
>At this point you should at least be recovering data bits from the disk.
>So if it still can't find a sector, find out why not. Can it not find an
>address mark at all?. Or can it not find the header you're asking for.
>This is likely to be a digital problem. As I don't have schematics for
>this unit I can't comment any further.
>
>-tony
>
-----Original Message-----
From: Al Kossow <aek(a)spies.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>"I wonder if it really is working most of the way (i.e. it can read ID
>marks and even data) but there's a problem getting that read data to the
>CPU (shift registers, bus drivers, etc)."
>
>Are you trying this on your 8/I or 8/S ?
The PDP-8i.. (it works the same on both units).. This drive has a dual
buffer (50) and was made to be used on some of the slowest computers... The
manual claims from high speed to "DC"... I have it on the 8i as I don't like
to subject the 8/s to questionable hardware.
>
>>From memory, the Sykes interface is REALLY dumb. An 8/S might be too slow
>to handle the data rates..
>
It is... *really* dumb... Its got a 2 sector buffer option(claims it can do
2 things at the same time with the buffers) so I got a bigger really dumb
controller.
It's search algorithm is really funny too:
Read Sector <-------------
If requested Sector <> address then |
If CRC not okay then ---------------------|
(you get the idea.. and infinite loop for most errors)
john
PDP-8 and other rare mini computers
http://www.pdp8.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>> It isn't alignment as I can manually move the head very slightly back and
>> forth which does affect the data coming into the controller assembly but
>> does not help it find the actual sector... Therefore, hardware or an
anlog
>> adjustment
>>
>> I would like an alignment disk so I can use "their" tuning procedure to
make
>> this drive work quickly. It has a number of adjustments including :
Clock,
>> window, gap, etc...
>
>
>Most alignment disks do not include such tests (I am not saying that the
>IBM one you asked for doesn't). They're just raw drive alignement disks
>with catseye patterns for aligning the radial position, an index timing
>burst, etc.
>
I hear you. This particular drive claimed it did.
>If you think there's an electronic problem then you don't really need an
>aligment disk. Start with the spindle speed, which I assume is right
>since it almost certainly uses a mains-powered induction motor. Still, it
>can't hurt to check that the index pulses occur at the right frequency.
>
That's all working fine... It's controller has a serious status system in it
where it monitors disk spindle speed, etc...
>They'll be a master clock, probably also used for writing. Check this
>with a 'scope or frequency counter. If it's incorrect, find out why.
>
One master clock.. 1Mhz, good.. A board dedicated to "data timing".
>Then take a formatted disk (format one yourself on your old CP/M machine
>if you have to ;-)). Read a sector continously. Display the off-disk data
>on one trace of a 'scope and the read clock on another. Does the read
>clock seem to be the right frequency? Is it locked wrt the data? If not,
>look at that read PLL (or whatever it uses).
>
Good idea on the CPM unit. I rarely use/see one so I will format one and
start that way.
>Index timing is either very important (if, for example, the controller
>expects to see an address mark as the first thing after an index pulse)
>or not at all important at this stage.
>
Not there yet.
>At this point you should at least be recovering data bits from the disk.
>So if it still can't find a sector, find out why not. Can it not find an
>address mark at all?. Or can it not find the header you're asking for.
>This is likely to be a digital problem. As I don't have schematics for
>this unit I can't comment any further.
>
It can't find a sector *most* of the time.. Once in a while I can get it to
read and display a sector correctly... The rest of the time it is in an
infinite loop.
What bugs me is sometimes I can read a sector with a good CRC and the data
is correct... probably *another* bad solder joint... this box has been
filled with them so far.
Thanks for the CP/M idea.
>-tony
>
>
>>>> >Wow. My collection of sharp objects are strictly modern
>>>>reproductions. To
>>>> >the point where I took them to the vet and had 'em xrayed to see if
>>>>they were
>>>> >correctly made. Some were, come weren't. Sold the ones that weren't.
>>>> >
>>>> >> Swords can be neat, I have a friend who recently sold a japanese
>>>>sword for
>>>> >> $40k to one of those roving sword buyers. Some local yard sale had a box
>>>>
>>>> This one was 650 years old, made by one of the best, and used in some major
>>>> ceremony. My friend estimated it will sell for 4 times as much in Japan.
>>>
>>>One wonders where your friend got the thing. I was under the impression
>>>they're
>>>illegal to export from Japan. (not sure where I got that impression though)
>>
>>Apparently a lot of swords were lost in WWII and found thier way to the US.
>>The Japanese families that lost these swords are willing to pay big bucks
>>for them if they can be found.
>
> Japanese I believe sometimes would "surrender" their swords as a formal
> gesture. GIs would also rob bodies, etc. Getting them back to Japan is a
> fair sized industry.
Wow! Quite a thread for one so far off topic.
In no particular order:
At the surrender at the end of WWII, swords were formally handed over by
commanding officers (of ships etc.) as a gesture of surrender. This is a
western custom as well as (rather than?) a Japanese one. Seems strange that
they handed over valuable antiques, but it is the sort of extravagant gesture
that goes with a culture that commits ritual suicide...
I will admit to having two swords, but I am not a collector. One is a modern
fencing foil with a rubber tip. The other, that I think of as "my sword" (even
though my brother has an interest in it) is a bit more interesting.
It is the sort of sword that officers in the Royal Navy wore with dress uniforms
up to about 1914 (when the design changed slightly). It belonged to my
grandfather, so I assume he was commissioned as a midshipman (US: ensign) at age
16 (in 1913). He may have upgraded later to the newer design, but if so, this
went to the bottom of the sea with him in 1944.
The sword was made by Wilkinson (lately of razor blade fame but in his time the
UK's leading sword manufacturer) and sold by Gieves (a well known supplier of
uniforms, known in the services as Thieves), and it bears the number (which may
be a serial number) 56500.
The test of such a sword was not whether a handkerchief would fall in two pieces
if dropped on the blade ;-) - in fact, mine has never been sharpened - but
whether you could bend the blade so that the tip would touch the forte just
below the hilt. Swords that passed would have a "proof mark" set into the blade
at that point. Wilkinsons reps used to demonstrate this, but it was said that
Gieves' swords made by anyone else, although they bore the proof mark, would be
damaged if you tried it...
My sword is somewhat corroded. I got someone to clean off the worst of the
rust; he cleaned of "as much as he dared", which unfortunately reduced the
clarity of the designs etched into the blade, so this may have been a mistake.
Nonetheless, for such a heavy piece of iron (though not relative to my computer
collection!) it is amazingly well balanced. I wouldn't have any difficulty
wielding it in a fight, even though the grip is a bit too small for me.
FWIW I am told that swords should be preserved with suitable grease. Suitable =
hydrophobic. In particular, lube oil / axle grease etc. are NOT suitable.
Petroleum jelly is recommended; I have heard of olive oil being used; and I
imagine silicone grease and some of the water displacing penetrating oils would
also work.
FWI also W I have some small skill in European fencing (although I haven't done
any for a few years now), but have never studied Kendo...
Philip.
**********************************************************************
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I've got one of these diagnostic diskettes, though I was never able to find
software suitable for using one with 8" drives.
If there's anyone out there who can tell me where I can beg/borrow/steal it,
I'd do that.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>> I was hoping to use an alignment disk as this drive is filled with TTLs
and
>
>Hmmm... As I mentioned in another message, _most_ alignment disks won't
>really help you here. What you want is a 'diagnostic' disk -- one filled
>with valid (and known/simple) data patters -- tracks of sectors of all
>0's or all 1's, things like that.
>
>Fortunately, such a disk is fairly easy to make if you have any other
>machine with 8" drives. I normally use one of my CP/M boxes for this.
>
>Then you can conitunally read sectors from the disk. Using a 'scope you
>can see if the read PLL is locking -- is the read clock synchronised to
>the off-disk data. Once you've got that, you use a logic analyser
>(preferably) to look at the data stream and see if (for example) it
>detects address marks correctly (these are quite easy to recognise with a
>little practice.
>
>> pots... The manual has many test points with pictures using the alignment
>> disk. I have no idea if the IBM system diskettes I have actually have a
good
>> format on them (betting it)
>
>My guess is that _any_ disk will do for setting up the PLL. For other
>tests it helps if the data pattern is known and simple.
>
>-tony
>
I've got hundreds of diskettes over 20 years old, and NONE have been losing
emulsion. I've had some of the jackets crack, and I've had some of the ones
which have gotten wet along the way stick in their jackets so they wouldn't
rotate, but the emulsion on those which would rotate, I've never had flaking
of the emulsion. Maybe that's because it's really dry here in Denver.
If you clean your disk heads from time to time, you'll probably not build up
enough glutch to damage a diskette.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>John B. wrote:
>
>>P.S. The sooner the better.. this thing is eating original IBM software
>>diskettes from the early '70s
>
>Dick wrote:
>
>>Having aligned about 25 8" drives over the last 6 months, I can tell you
>>that if your drive is "eating" your diskettes, the problem isn't with
>>alignment.
>
>It depends on the rate of "eating", but for 25-year old floppies it's
>not unusual to have a fair bit of flaking of the emulsion on the head
>(lower) side. If there's any damage on the *top* side, that's definitely
>the head load pad.
>
>Tim.
Before I find the highest building to jump off of, I though I might ask here
first....
I have a Sykes 7150 8" floppy drive (negibus PDP-8I) that I have invested a
half and hour in and have solved *most* of it's problems... It finally talks
to the PDP and I can select tracks, reset, read status, etc... once in a
while read a sector.
I need a single sided 128 byte record alignment floppy.
When I do a read now, the drive stays busy forever looking for the sector I
asked it for. (even if the head is on top of it). Since it was made in 1974
with TTL chips it is only bright enough to sit there and *wait* for the
correct data to come by. An alignment disk would make life a lot easier.
Anyone have one available? Please e-mail.
P.S. The sooner the better.. this thing is eating original IBM software
diskettes from the early '70s
PDP-8 and other rare mini computers
http://www.pdp8.com
Kevin,
I still have my C-64 and 300 baud modem. I know I have the Comms program
somewhere. I'll search for it and get back with you.
Ken
>===== Original Message From classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu =====
>Hello,
>
>I have a lovely C-64 with 1541 disk drive and original Commodore 300 baud
>modem.. but no software for the modem. Is anybody willing to make me a
>copy of some disk with the Comms program on it? Basic utilities would also
>be appreciated. I've considered making a cable to write with the drive on
>my linux box but it's just not worth the effort.
>
>Thanks,
>Kevin
"I wonder if it really is working most of the way (i.e. it can read ID
marks and even data) but there's a problem getting that read data to the
CPU (shift registers, bus drivers, etc)."
Are you trying this on your 8/I or 8/S ?
What you describe doesn't appear to me to be an alignment issue. Whether
the drive is in or out of radial alignment, the appearance of the data will
change as the relative position of head to track changes. I'd suspect index
alignment if the thing doesn't find the first sector on a track. On the
other hand, if it doesn't ever find a sector address mark, it's also
possible that the controller has a hardware flaw.
Have you tried this controller with a drive that works? Have you tried this
drive with a computer that works? Since I'm not familiar with the hardware
you're using, and since I'm not anywhere which would make sending you a
candidate drive possible if I even have one, I can't suggest much.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 9:15 PM
Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>>
>> Before I find the highest building to jump off of, I though I might ask
here
>> first....
>>
>> I have a Sykes 7150 8" floppy drive (negibus PDP-8I) that I have invested
a
>> half and hour in and have solved *most* of it's problems... It finally
talks
>> to the PDP and I can select tracks, reset, read status, etc... once in a
>> while read a sector.
>>
>> I need a single sided 128 byte record alignment floppy.
>>
>> When I do a read now, the drive stays busy forever looking for the sector
I
>> asked it for. (even if the head is on top of it). Since it was made in
1974
>> with TTL chips it is only bright enough to sit there and *wait* for the
>> correct data to come by. An alignment disk would make life a lot easier.
>>
>> Anyone have one available? Please e-mail.
>>
>> P.S. The sooner the better.. this thing is eating original IBM software
>> diskettes from the early '70s
>
>
>Do you mean it's physically damaging those disks? Or it's erasing them?
>Or what? Becase if it is, then the last thing you should do is feed it an
>alignment disk (for obvious reasons).
>
When I do a write the logic happily kills *needed* data on the disk. It does
not erase them,.... it kind of writes what it wants to them.
>Normally, of course, you get the system working well enough to
>format/write/read a bulk-erased disk. It can do that however badly
>aligned it is. And once it can do that it's safe to stick the alignment
>disk in. But I assume that like many DEC and DEC-compatible systems, it
>can't actually format a disk.
That's right... this drive is pre '74.(an Orbis drive inside - serial #4) .
No formatting possible.. all TTL.. but double buffered (really cool)...
about 170 ttl chips in the interface alone (8 boards)
This drive can be used on (according to the most recent manual):
PDP-11/20
PDP-8,8/s,8I
nova
hp 2100
varian 620 or 70 family
You just plug in one small interface board into the cage for each different
mini.
>
>In that case, what I normally do is to put in a factory-formatted scratch
>disk. Clip a 'scope to the outputs of the read amplifier and move the
>head positioner slightly to peak the read amplitude. Sometimes it's
>easier to find 2 points, one each side of the track, where the amplitude
>has fallen off by the same amount and then to set it midway between them.
>
I did that (mentioned above).. I had the scope on the head... It did not
need alignment but looks like it might need a few TTLs...
>Once you've done that, the drive should be working well enough to test it
>fully. I'd not trust the alignment for real data like that (although the
>last 2 drives I did this way were within spec when checked with a catseye
>disk). But at least you'll know if it's safe to use the alignment disk.
>
I was hoping to use an alignment disk as this drive is filled with TTLs and
pots... The manual has many test points with pictures using the alignment
disk. I have no idea if the IBM system diskettes I have actually have a good
format on them (betting it)
>Sorry, BTW, I don't have an 8" alignment disk. I wish I did...
>
>-tony
>
>
Hello all,
Although it's not *my* particular interest, a paper tape punch/reader
caught my eye while I was scrounging around some surplus stores over the
weekend and I thought of this group. I *know* you're going to ask the
manufacturer and model, and I have to say that I don't remember, but it
*wasn't* DEC, HP, IBM, or any other brand I recognized.
It looks like it was designed to mount vertically in a 19" rack, and it
is about 2 feet high, rack width, and about 6 or 8 inches deep. It has
what appears to be a serial interface, and it even has a fairly decent
size roll of unpunched tape loaded. It's in very good cosmetic condition
(except for the dust on it) and it appears to be complete. I don't know
if it works, but the little bin has a lot of punch debris in it, so it
did at one time, anyway!
If there's any interest in this item, I can go get more specifics on it.
I doubt they guy wants too much for it, but then again I haven't asked
him yet...
Regards,
Stan
-----Original Message-----
From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>John B. wrote:
>
>>P.S. The sooner the better.. this thing is eating original IBM software
>>diskettes from the early '70s
>
>Dick wrote:
>
>>Having aligned about 25 8" drives over the last 6 months, I can tell you
>>that if your drive is "eating" your diskettes, the problem isn't with
>>alignment.
>
>It depends on the rate of "eating", but for 25-year old floppies it's
>not unusual to have a fair bit of flaking of the emulsion on the head
>(lower) side. If there's any damage on the *top* side, that's definitely
>the head load pad.
Again, "eating" refers to the fact that when I try to write it is damaging
the format through the writing process thereby destorying more original IBM
software... It is a very clean drive and handles disks well.. (it just
doesn't find sectors most of the time)...
It isn't alignment as I can manually move the head very slightly back and
forth which does affect the data coming into the controller assembly but
does not help it find the actual sector... Therefore, hardware or an anlog
adjustment
I would like an alignment disk so I can use "their" tuning procedure to make
this drive work quickly. It has a number of adjustments including : Clock,
window, gap, etc...
I would know what to expect (data wise) as I am troubleshooting the boards.
PROBLEMS TO DATE:
Cold solder joints on the backplane... yuck! Resoldered the whole thing just
to get the drive to talk to the CPU... I expect 1 or 2 problems on the
boards which are keeping this drive from running nicely.
I try to restore things that are pre-8" but this drive was built for a
Straight-8,8/S so I *have* to get it going.
john
PDP-8 and other rare mini computers
http://www.pdp8.com
>
>Tim.
>
I'd be really interested in how you'd make your own alignment diskette.
Could you shed some light here? If this were in any sense straightforward,
I'd have made my own long ago. I suppose I could fiddle with one of my
PerSci drives, causing the head positioner to move as it would have to in
order to produce the famous "cat's-eye" pattern on track 38, but I believe
one would have to build special electronics to generate the sync reference
burst or pulse (depending on whether you prefer DYSAN or SHUGART alignment
diskettes) on tracks 1 and 76. Now, I've got no idea how to make the
azimuthal adjustments precisely enough that I'd trust the results.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: John B <dylanb(a)sympatico.ca>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 6:46 PM
Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
>Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 8:31 PM
>Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>
>
>>Having aligned about 25 8" drives over the last 6 months, I can tell you
>>that if your drive is "eating" your diskettes, the problem isn't with
>>alignment. If it's damaging your diskette emulsion, it's likely that it's
>
>
>No.. My "eating" implies I am sticking in original IBM software disks to
old
>IBM minis and writing over the data on them. :-(
>
>>either missing the headload pad, or the head penetration is misadjusted.
I
>>don't know what the procedure for head penetration adjustment on your
>>particular drive is, but most drives seem to require a couple of feeler
>>guages and some glyptol to make sure it doesn't move when you're done.
>>
>>Before I'll consider LENDING anyone one of my no longer readily available
>>alignment diskettes, I want to be dead certain it won't be chewed up as
>>might happen with the misadjusted head penetration or missing headload
pad,
>>or written on as might happen with an inappropriately set-up drive or
>>controller. Even a $1k deposit won't ensure I get back a thoroughly
>useable
>>diskette, and I've not seen one for sale in over 15 years.
>
>The *moment* I get this drive up I'll be making IBM alignment disks for the
>planet!
>
>>
>>Dick
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: John B <dylanb(a)sympatico.ca>
>>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
>><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
>>Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 5:38 PM
>>Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>>
>>
>>>Before I find the highest building to jump off of, I though I might ask
>>here
>>>first....
>>>
>>>I have a Sykes 7150 8" floppy drive (negibus PDP-8I) that I have invested
>a
>>>half and hour in and have solved *most* of it's problems... It finally
>>talks
>>>to the PDP and I can select tracks, reset, read status, etc... once in a
>>>while read a sector.
>>>
>>>I need a single sided 128 byte record alignment floppy.
>>>
>>>When I do a read now, the drive stays busy forever looking for the sector
>I
>>>asked it for. (even if the head is on top of it). Since it was made in
>1974
>>>with TTL chips it is only bright enough to sit there and *wait* for the
>>>correct data to come by. An alignment disk would make life a lot easier.
>>>
>>>Anyone have one available? Please e-mail.
>>>
>>>P.S. The sooner the better.. this thing is eating original IBM software
>>>diskettes from the early '70s
>>>
>>>
>>>PDP-8 and other rare mini computers
>>>
>>>http://www.pdp8.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
Hi, all! I recently purchased a large batch of old QBus cards to expand
some of the systems in my collection, and one of the cards in the batch
is rather unknown to me... I know its some kind of disk controller,
guessing MSCP ST-506 but I'm wondering if its SCSI because i'm seeing
some resistor packs on the board that could be terminating resistors,
I suppose... anyways, here's the information:
(Label on top of large 48 pin IC)
"TD Systems Inc.
Lowell, MA - USA
VIK/QDT #2111"
(Label on 28 pin ROM)
"Viking
Q/B A4.0"
(Etching on card component side)
"211 00031 Rev. E"
(Another etching on component side)
"(C) 1987 Made in USA Assy 210-00031"
Physical characteristics - dual width board, 50 pin connector on board
with a single red LED near the connector.
I'd appreciate it if someone could clue me in on the identity of the
card - i'm rather curious as to what it is! :)
Thanks,
-Sean Caron (root(a)diablonet.net)
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>> I was hoping to use an alignment disk as this drive is filled with TTLs
and
>
>Hmmm... As I mentioned in another message, _most_ alignment disks won't
>really help you here. What you want is a 'diagnostic' disk -- one filled
>with valid (and known/simple) data patters -- tracks of sectors of all
>0's or all 1's, things like that.
>
>Fortunately, such a disk is fairly easy to make if you have any other
>machine with 8" drives. I normally use one of my CP/M boxes for this.
>
>Then you can conitunally read sectors from the disk. Using a 'scope you
>can see if the read PLL is locking -- is the read clock synchronised to
>the off-disk data. Once you've got that, you use a logic analyser
>(preferably) to look at the data stream and see if (for example) it
>detects address marks correctly (these are quite easy to recognise with a
>little practice.
>
>> pots... The manual has many test points with pictures using the alignment
>> disk. I have no idea if the IBM system diskettes I have actually have a
good
>> format on them (betting it)
>
>My guess is that _any_ disk will do for setting up the PLL. For other
>tests it helps if the data pattern is known and simple.
>
That's why I wanted one.. The manual actually calls it an alignment disk but
your right.. it's really just a diagnostic disk. I am identifying major
points on the schematics right now so I can quickly go through it with a
scope... (I *really* dislike 8" floppies)
>-tony
>
>
As a matter of fact, it's not unusual for floppy drives to lose their
alignment. What causes it is operating the stepping motor TOO SLOWLY. This
is frequently done in an effort to be conservative and allow the use of as
many different drives as possible, but the step rate is quite critical in
the long-term retention of alignment. Two alignment seem to go askew
frequently.
One, the most common, is index alignment. An alignment diskette has a pulse
or burst recorded nominally 200 microseconds after the start of the index
pulse, thereby allowing you or the technician to move the index sense LED
assembly once it's been loosened. I don't know why these get fouled up so
easily, but the vibration from running a 6 ms drive at 8ms might be at
fault. I'd say letting the springs POP the diskette out by snapping the
drive door open can do quite a bit to move the index sensor around.
Slamming the door shut won't help things either.
The radial alignment doesn't get fouled up as often as people think, but the
vibration I mentioned above is definitely the culprit, though rough handling
can cause problems as well. If you can hear your drive move its heads, as
you could with almost every PC FDD, then it's stepping too slowly.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>> Try formatting the disk. If you still can't read
>>back, an alignment disk won't help.
>
>I'd be willing to bet that the Sykes hardware in question isn't
>capable of formatting a raw 8" floppy. Remember, we're talking large
>boards packed full of SSI TTL here, and the formatting functionality
>usually wasn't present. (Besides, at the time all 8" floppies came
>preformatted.)
>
>> Check that the head(s)
>>are clean and, if single sided, that the pressure pad is not
>>tilted. It is rare that the alignment is off unless someone
>>fiddled with it.
>
>100% true. Unless it's been physically abused or someone decided they
>needed to "tweak" the alignment, it's probably right where it should be.
>
>And the advice to check the pressure pad is right on the money, too!
>
>Tim.
It is a Viking disk and tape SCSI controller. I scanned the manuals and did a
quick and dirty OCR of them. They are posted on Zane's site.
ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/dan/viking_scsi/
Dan
-
(Label on top of large 48 pin IC)
"TD Systems Inc.
Lowell, MA - USA
VIK/QDT #2111"
(Label on 28 pin ROM)
"Viking
Q/B A4.0"
(Etching on card component side)
"211 00031 Rev. E"
(Another etching on component side)
"(C) 1987 Made in USA Assy 210-00031"
Physical characteristics - dual width board, 50 pin connector on board
with a single red LED near the connector.
I'd appreciate it if someone could clue me in on the identity of the
card - i'm rather curious as to what it is! :)
Thanks,
-Sean Caron (root(a)diablonet.net)
John B. wrote:
>P.S. The sooner the better.. this thing is eating original IBM software
>diskettes from the early '70s
Dick wrote:
>Having aligned about 25 8" drives over the last 6 months, I can tell you
>that if your drive is "eating" your diskettes, the problem isn't with
>alignment.
It depends on the rate of "eating", but for 25-year old floppies it's
not unusual to have a fair bit of flaking of the emulsion on the head
(lower) side. If there's any damage on the *top* side, that's definitely
the head load pad.
Tim.
>"I'd be willing to bet that the Sykes hardware in question isn't
>capable of formatting a raw 8" floppy."
>Is there any reason to beleive this device used standard SD soft-sectored
>discs, and wrote in the same format as IBM used?
Does the Sykes claim to be RX01-compatible? If so, it ought to be able to read
standard IBM 3740 floppies.
There are third-party-for-DEC-systems drives out there that don't
emulate RX01 or RX02, and use their own propietary data formats. The
AED 6200 is an example.
Tim.
Sorry for going a bit off-topic here. I normally have no qualm about
including my company email in my postings, it has resulted in some
interesting and useful dialogue since the topic *resembles* my work. But
a story that aired here in Houston yesterday gave me some pause to
think. It told of 3 workers at a midwest company who were terminated for
........ RECEIVING !! ... non-work-related email.
As usual with radio news, few details were provided. Was it spam? Was it
blatant personal mail? I wonder if anyone else has run across this
story. While I don't believe that my own company would be this
arbitrary, one has to wonder ..... if your employer Really wanted to get
rid of you .......
Nick Oliviero
"I'd be willing to bet that the Sykes hardware in question isn't
capable of formatting a raw 8" floppy."
Is there any reason to beleive this device used standard SD soft-sectored
discs, and wrote in the same format as IBM used?
Having aligned about 25 8" drives over the last 6 months, I can tell you
that if your drive is "eating" your diskettes, the problem isn't with
alignment. If it's damaging your diskette emulsion, it's likely that it's
either missing the headload pad, or the head penetration is misadjusted. I
don't know what the procedure for head penetration adjustment on your
particular drive is, but most drives seem to require a couple of feeler
guages and some glyptol to make sure it doesn't move when you're done.
Before I'll consider LENDING anyone one of my no longer readily available
alignment diskettes, I want to be dead certain it won't be chewed up as
might happen with the misadjusted head penetration or missing headload pad,
or written on as might happen with an inappropriately set-up drive or
controller. Even a $1k deposit won't ensure I get back a thoroughly useable
diskette, and I've not seen one for sale in over 15 years.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: John B <dylanb(a)sympatico.ca>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 5:38 PM
Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>Before I find the highest building to jump off of, I though I might ask
here
>first....
>
>I have a Sykes 7150 8" floppy drive (negibus PDP-8I) that I have invested a
>half and hour in and have solved *most* of it's problems... It finally
talks
>to the PDP and I can select tracks, reset, read status, etc... once in a
>while read a sector.
>
>I need a single sided 128 byte record alignment floppy.
>
>When I do a read now, the drive stays busy forever looking for the sector I
>asked it for. (even if the head is on top of it). Since it was made in 1974
>with TTL chips it is only bright enough to sit there and *wait* for the
>correct data to come by. An alignment disk would make life a lot easier.
>
>Anyone have one available? Please e-mail.
>
>P.S. The sooner the better.. this thing is eating original IBM software
>diskettes from the early '70s
>
>
>PDP-8 and other rare mini computers
>
>http://www.pdp8.com
>
>
>
> Try formatting the disk. If you still can't read
>back, an alignment disk won't help.
I'd be willing to bet that the Sykes hardware in question isn't
capable of formatting a raw 8" floppy. Remember, we're talking large
boards packed full of SSI TTL here, and the formatting functionality
usually wasn't present. (Besides, at the time all 8" floppies came
preformatted.)
> Check that the head(s)
>are clean and, if single sided, that the pressure pad is not
>tilted. It is rare that the alignment is off unless someone
>fiddled with it.
100% true. Unless it's been physically abused or someone decided they
needed to "tweak" the alignment, it's probably right where it should be.
And the advice to check the pressure pad is right on the money, too!
Tim.
>Hi, all! I recently purchased a large batch of old QBus cards to expand
>some of the systems in my collection, and one of the cards in the batch
>is rather unknown to me... I know its some kind of disk controller,
>guessing MSCP ST-506 but I'm wondering if its SCSI because i'm seeing
>some resistor packs on the board that could be terminating resistors,
>I suppose... anyways, here's the information:
>
>(Label on top of large 48 pin IC)
> "TD Systems Inc.
> Lowell, MA - USA
> VIK/QDT #2111"
>
>(Label on 28 pin ROM)
> "Viking
> Q/B A4.0"
It's a Viking QDT, a Q-bus host adapter for SCSI disks and tapes. (That's
what the "DT" in QDT means.)
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
-----Original Message-----
From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>>"I'd be willing to bet that the Sykes hardware in question isn't
>>capable of formatting a raw 8" floppy."
It cannot format anything.
>
>>Is there any reason to beleive this device used standard SD soft-sectored
>>discs, and wrote in the same format as IBM used?
>
>Does the Sykes claim to be RX01-compatible? If so, it ought to be able to
read
>standard IBM 3740 floppies.
No it doesn't.. When did RX01s come out? They mention in the manual that you
can copy its disks with a IBM 3741 copier???
>
>There are third-party-for-DEC-systems drives out there that don't
>emulate RX01 or RX02, and use their own propietary data formats. The
>AED 6200 is an example.
>
>Tim.
>
On Nov 29, 19:02, Tony Duell wrote:
> >
> > I have a CPC6128 which reports that there is no disk in the drive when
I
> > try to run a program or even |dir.
> >
> > I have opened the box up and it looks as if the drive isn't spinning
up.
> I don't notice
> a disk-inserted sensor on the FD1 schematic in the 8256 service manual
> (which I am pretty sure is the same drive), though, and it appears to
> detect a disk in place by looking for index pulses (the circuitry around
> Q5-Q8).
I think that's right. The classic symptom of the very common drive belt
problem is that the disk isn't detected. Since the motor is pretty quiet,
yo might not realise it's running but simply not driving the spindle.
> These drives are well-known for suffering from drive belt problems, which
> of course results in the motor spinning but the disk not turning. Could
> that be the problem with your drive?
*Very* common. After a few years disuse, the belt goes slack. In a pinch,
you can replace the belt with a flat rubber band to prove the rest of the
drive is operational, but it won't be completely reliable. The belts are
easy to get, at least here in the UK, and quite cheap (a pound or so) if
you don't buy the branded Amstrad spare part. However, they're flat belts
and not very stretchy, unlike most round- or square-section cassette belts,
so you do need to get the right size.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Dept. of Computer Science
University of York
-----Original Message-----
From: Al Kossow <aek(a)spies.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>"I'd be willing to bet that the Sykes hardware in question isn't
>capable of formatting a raw 8" floppy."
>
>Is there any reason to beleive this device used standard SD soft-sectored
>discs, and wrote in the same format as IBM used?
Yes, the drive was *sold* on the fact that it was IBM compatible...
Remember, I *can* get it to read in a sector once in awhile...
They recommend using IBM 128byte record floppy disks. (what was available in
1974)
>
>
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>Having aligned about 25 8" drives over the last 6 months, I can tell you
>that if your drive is "eating" your diskettes, the problem isn't with
>alignment. If it's damaging your diskette emulsion, it's likely that it's
No.. My "eating" implies I am sticking in original IBM software disks to old
IBM minis and writing over the data on them. :-(
>either missing the headload pad, or the head penetration is misadjusted. I
>don't know what the procedure for head penetration adjustment on your
>particular drive is, but most drives seem to require a couple of feeler
>guages and some glyptol to make sure it doesn't move when you're done.
>
>Before I'll consider LENDING anyone one of my no longer readily available
>alignment diskettes, I want to be dead certain it won't be chewed up as
>might happen with the misadjusted head penetration or missing headload pad,
>or written on as might happen with an inappropriately set-up drive or
>controller. Even a $1k deposit won't ensure I get back a thoroughly
useable
>diskette, and I've not seen one for sale in over 15 years.
The *moment* I get this drive up I'll be making IBM alignment disks for the
planet!
>
>Dick
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: John B <dylanb(a)sympatico.ca>
>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
>Date: Monday, November 29, 1999 5:38 PM
>Subject: Needed: 1 IBM 8" alignment disk.
>
>
>>Before I find the highest building to jump off of, I though I might ask
>here
>>first....
>>
>>I have a Sykes 7150 8" floppy drive (negibus PDP-8I) that I have invested
a
>>half and hour in and have solved *most* of it's problems... It finally
>talks
>>to the PDP and I can select tracks, reset, read status, etc... once in a
>>while read a sector.
>>
>>I need a single sided 128 byte record alignment floppy.
>>
>>When I do a read now, the drive stays busy forever looking for the sector
I
>>asked it for. (even if the head is on top of it). Since it was made in
1974
>>with TTL chips it is only bright enough to sit there and *wait* for the
>>correct data to come by. An alignment disk would make life a lot easier.
>>
>>Anyone have one available? Please e-mail.
>>
>>P.S. The sooner the better.. this thing is eating original IBM software
>>diskettes from the early '70s
>>
>>
>>PDP-8 and other rare mini computers
>>
>>http://www.pdp8.com
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Originally I did not, as at the time I dumped all of my Xt's I
just happened to get another ORIGINAL IBM-XT system. its an Original
IBM-PC system. so to answer your question. YES!!! I need to find a working
8 bit Ethernet card for it (NE1000?) or a Compaticard II or IV controller
to Handle High Density disks. Right now it has a SEgate 8bit IDE
controller card, which I would like to replace with a MFM card (I only
have TWO ST3251A/X IDE drives. IDE and I are not on talking terms
thoughi, IDE HATES ME, I want my SCSI or MFM!
I would love to find another 8 bit SCSI Trantor Controller such as the
T130B with the manual/software. Email back to me or call me at
860-423-2214 after 6PM Eastern Standard Time. ask for Michele Marie.
For this brute, I need a CGA Monitor or color Composite monitor.
Right now the system has a CGA/Composite Video board, I am using the
Composite output to drive a Tandy VM11 (Actually the monitor is being used
next door to watch TV (yeah its GREEN, but surpisingly its works great
with DIRECTTV Satalite television.)). I have been looking for YEARS to get
a Commodore 1702 Composite Monitor, This Commodore monitor supports
standard Audio/Video in additon to S-VHS! video!! (you need a custom cable
to be made to bring the Lumance and Chromance out as two RCA plugs
though).
An IBM-AT style keyboard by BTC would be nice. its not a clicky
but I had one long ago on an old Hyundai XT that I used to have. Got one
of those hiding around. I am going forward this to clasiccomp computers
list also.
I will summarise the pieces I am looking for below in detail:
1 Trantor T130B Scsi card with disks
1 Commodore 1702 Color Monitor (for computer/TV use)
1 BTC AT style keyboard that works on Xts
1 A better Motherboard (groan) or a new Bios for the IBM-Pc board.
1 Working 8 bit Ne1000 compatible 10base2 card/w packet drivers
NCSA Telnet.
Scsi Hard drives, any size from 40mb and up.
1 Cassette cable for the IBM-PC computer
More US computer power cords!
Memory! especially 4mb x 9 by 30pin simms at least 60ns (for the
big bad ole 486 Linux file server
1 8087 math coprocessor chip for the XT (system is only 4.77mhz
Hyndai/Blue Chip computer system.
While we are on the commodore side (I am making this request to
anyone that can help me here.
In addition to the 1702. does anyone have a originall Commodore
64/128/128D computer and working 1541 floppy snail (if you know commodore,
you know why the drive is a snail, I found a 1571. Only need a serial
cable and the 1571 disks for that one and a 1541), Serial cables for
drive, power cords, Datasette unit, (I have an Okimate 120 printer, not
sure if it works though, a manual for this would help). serial cables
Communications software. Rs232 serial adaptor (the thing that plugs into
the user port/or quicklink II adaptor, fastload cartridge, software disks.
I gave mine away, (sighhh, I want one again). I
think some of my books are still at my parents. Might go home during
Christmas to look for them.
A pearl of wisdom from the y2K newsgroups:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Y2K appears to be the Baby Boomers mid-life crisis, and it has the
potential to be a dandy.
-- Anonymnous --
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
B'ichela
On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Jeff Jonas wrote:
> I found a note that you were once asking for
> a PC-XT hard disk controller.
> Do you still need any parts?
>
> Jeffrey Jonas
> jeffj(a)panix.com
>
I was wondering if anyone has a DG house number to generic
part cross reference somewhere (if not I suppose I'll start one).
Pat of this is prompted by a part (not *yet* suspect) I ran
across on a Nova 800 CPU1 board. From the prints it looks
like it's a a quad 2-input mux like a 74158, but the
pinouts are completely different and it's got wired-or
outputs suggesting OC outputs. Select and enable are on
9 and 7 (I may have those switched); 1 = i0a, 2 = i0b,
3 = ya, 4 = yb, 5 = i1b, 6= i1a, 10 = i2a, 11 = i2b,
12 = yc, 13 = yd, 15 = i3a, 14 = i3b
Of course, that's just the way it's drawn. It could be somewhat
different :-)
Does this part sound familiar to anyone?
Best,
Chris
--
Chris Kennedy
chris(a)mainecoon.com
http://www.mainecoon.com
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
>I just saw some rack mounted oscilloscopes out on the loading dock. They are
>manufactured by trancor northern, and have a quad height slot available from
>the rear of the unit (no cover for the slot). It has a dual height LSI11
>cpu board (DEC), and another dual height board installed(DEC). The second
>unit is the same, except the second card has generic white handles.
>
>Does anyone know about these things? one rack has two of these, and
>under them is a dual 8" floppy drive unit, that has a small ribbon
>connector that connects to something via a 25 pin rs-232 connector.
It's *probably* a multichannel analyzer (MCA), not an oscilliscope. MCA's
look at pulse heights and generate real-time cumulative histograms of
pulse height on the screen.
Tracor Northern is one of the more prolific manufacturers of MCA's.
I once got to look at a MCA from the late 1940's, and it was fascinating:
the input pulse was amplified, then fed to a solenoid that kicked a ball
bearing up in a ballistic trajectory. There were bins that accumulated
ball bearings according to how hard they'd been kicked. Fascinating
machine!
Of course, modern MCA's use computers to do the counting :-).
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
I just saw some rack mounted oscilloscopes out on the loading dock. They are
manufactured by trancor northern, and have a quad height slot available from
the rear of the unit (no cover for the slot). It has a dual height LSI11
cpu board (DEC), and another dual height board installed(DEC). The second
unit is the same, except the second card has generic white handles.
Does anyone know about these things? one rack has two of these, and
under them is a dual 8" floppy drive unit, that has a small ribbon
connector that connects to something via a 25 pin rs-232 connector.
There are various oscilloscope probes there as well, with BNC style
connectors to connect to the oscilloscope. I didnt count, but i'd say
roughly a dozen probes mounted on the outside of the rack on some
custom made holder.
-Lawrence LeMay
I am looking for new homes for all the old computer stuff I
have collected in my 40 years of working in the computer busness.
I'm not a collector just a person that don't like to through any
think away. I have 16 boxes of information, books, manuals,
magazines, and software.
Anyone interested or know someone that would be interested
contact me using my E-mail address.
Paul V. Marzolf
2761 Morningside Dr.
Salt Lake City, Ut. 84124
Phone: (801) 277 7556
E-mail: pmarzolf(a)juno.com
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
Hello all,
I've recently moved to the Sacramento area and was interested if anyone on the list is aware of any computer recycling companies out here? I know of a few in Orange County and the Bay Area, but can't seem to find anything out here. Any input is appreciated.
Thanks,
John
OK, I've been working on this for the past several days trying to see if
data is actually being written to the core. However, I have run into a bit
of a stumbling block. What is the following Chip, and does anyone have a
pinout?
S7316
DEC
6380A
The MA lines go into it on the G227 board.
1=GND
8=Vcc +5V
I think 4,7,12 are all inputs.
I assume the 'S7316' is the manufacturer part number?
Zane
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator |
| healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast |
| healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
At 12:13 PM 11/28/1999 -0800, you wrote:
>It said "Microsoft DOS Version 3.3", IIRC. But now it won't boot from
>the electronic drive, so I'm stuck with using an external floppy (for
>now). If it helps matters, the COMMAND.COM on the electronic disk shows
>a size of 25,308 and a creation date of 02-02-88 at 12:00a.
This is MS DOS 3.3a, or 3.3.02, or 3.30a, or 3.30.02 (depending on how
you pick your nits :); the timestamp is really 00:00:02.
Let me know via email if you still need it.
Lance.
Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com
System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting
lance(a)costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees
Please send them to
Larry Truthan
OCLC Inc - MC 363
6565 Frantz Rd
Dublin OH 43017
-----Original Message-----
From: John B [mailto:dylanb@sympatico.ca]
Sent: Monday, November 29, 1999 7:52 AM
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
Subject: D--16 Maintenance Manuals? Someone needed them?
I have two maintenance manuals for the D-116. Someone requested these a
while ago from this list but I cannot locate the email from him. Please
e-mail me so I can ship them out. The first manual is part I (CPU handbook),
the other manual is full schematics.
PDP-8s and other rare mini computers
http://www.pdp8.com
Managed to pick up:
2 more H901 DEC educational/prototyping flip chip panels
35 DECtapes with 2 rack mount holders, software is mostly PDP-9, some PDP-8
(OS/8) and a couple PDP-15.
PDP-10 Applications in Physics manuals.
8" IBM disks (bunch).. cool for the Sykes 7150.
KM-11 plastic templates
A bunch of Nova software magtapes
Storage:
*just* started one storage unit and found 4 complete RK11-D controller sets
still in the BA-11s (from Ontario Paper).
Viewed the Fujitsu Super Computer (WOW!)
Looks like the next load will be half a dozen PDP-8s in Georgia.
I will post all my *micro PDP-8 diagnostics* later today.
Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!
john
PDP-8 and other rare mini computers
http://www.pdp8.com
On Saturday, November 27, 1999 7:40 PM, Carlos Murillo-Sanchez
[SMTP:cem14@cornell.edu] wrote:
> Chuck McManis wrote:
> >
> > Consider it flame bait if you like, but if you run the numbers this
country
> > would be a lot better off (fewer people killed generating the power,
fewer
> > natural resources destroyed) with a nuclear power infrastructure than
it
> > would be with a fossil fuel powered one.
> >
> > --Chuck
Remember Bhopal, India?
At least 15,000 died in that disaster and a reported 600,000 more suffered
injuries. Why are we more critical of the russians then Union Carbide?
Steve Robertson - <steverob(a)hotoffice.com>
I have two maintenance manuals for the D-116. Someone requested these a
while ago from this list but I cannot locate the email from him. Please
e-mail me so I can ship them out. The first manual is part I (CPU handbook),
the other manual is full schematics.
PDP-8s and other rare mini computers
http://www.pdp8.com
I took out my pair of these tonight to see what level of functionality
they're in. One of them gives a "dead HD" error on bootup (see
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6370/errores.html) which was
confirmed by downloading the boot/diagnostics disk and firing it up with
that (see http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Lab/6370/models.html for
disks, if you've got a PS/2 that needs them). Turns out one of these also
has the 300/1200/2400 modem and the PS/2 (MCA-bus, woah, in a portable!)
SCSI card w/cache (its got two SIMM sticking on it, even).
Right now I cant figure out how to get the HD out of the machine so I
can swap it with the one from the other box (or possibly replace it
with another IBM drive, these look to be the proprietaary PS/2 card-edge-
connector HDs).
Anybody got one or more of these machines that they'd like to "dispose"
of, if I pay shipping? I love the red plasma display, and plan to use
this box (if I can get it fully working with a HD) on my packet radio
station.
I've got this other semi-DOA (no screen display, no beeps, but power lights)
70-386, and in the garage somewhere, a complete (no manuals, but it boots and
works, and has the I/O expansion "slice") IBM PC Convertible laptop, with
power supply in IBm canvase carrying case, if anybody's interested and wants
to swap something for them.
I've also got this MCA-bus SCSI controller card w/cache, if that would prove
useful to anyone... (I cant use it, it has the funky IBM-proprietary external
SCSI connector on back).
Bill (man, plasma displays are wonderful, wish I could find more machines
that used them.. I've already got a couple of Toshiba 3x00 laptops that
i use as VT100 terminals; anybody else know of portable machines that
used similar displays?)
--
Bill Bradford * mrbill(a)mrbill.net / http://www.mrbill.net
mrbill(a)sunhelp.org / http://www.sunhelp.org
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to using
Windows NT for mission-critical applications."
-- What Yoda *meant* to say
In a message dated 11/26/99 11:23:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
edick(a)idcomm.com wrote about collecting train stuff, saying:
> OOOHH! N-scale! Nice stuff, even for the apartment dweller.
actually, Z-scale is better. you can run a coupla loops around on a shelf! of
course, miniturization <sic> costs money...
<Actually, the ACB4070 is a SCSI<=>RLL bridge. It operates in a way which
I have one in use but it's been a long while since I did it.
<translates what is on the disk to cyl/hd/sector. However, it talks to the
<host in SCSI. In any case, I've seen implementations (back when they wer
Yes but when you talk from the host is it CHS or BLOCKS? If memory serves
you init the controller with the disk geometry and it translates that to
a sequence of blocks where the physical geometry is not directly visible.
<all over the place) which worked very well, and I've seen others which
<worked very poorly. Insofar as the bridge controllers were the same, I hav
<to assume that it was because of the BIOS code. I should have informed
<myself about that back then, but it didn't seem important enough.
They are not all the same performance wise. Some are realll sloowwww.
Also it also depends on the host interface and IO. If the SCSI hardware
is faked or a bit doggy it shows.
<Many ESDI drives work on a logical block basis just like the SCSI's. They
Cool, never worked with them.
<one to shuffle the data between the host and drive. The thing that makes
<SCSI outperform ESDI in most cases is that the SCSI leaves the host adapte
<alone except when it's transferring corrected data. The ESDI relies on th
<controller to handle all the correction, etc. In an environment, e.g. DEC'
<MSCP, where there are enough smarts to utilize command queueing and
<overlapped seeks, etc, SCSI outperforms the fastest ESDI by quite a little
.... and? I know the VAX MSCP controllers I must have 5 or 6 RQDX3/2/1s I
still run.
<>Watch out for track (one head) and cylinder (n many heads).
<
<It seems that if the BDOS is willing to call out both the track and the
<sector numbers in a range from 0..FFFFH, that means you only need to specif
Correct both are passed as 16bit numbers in the BC pair.
<one sector per track if all you want is a logical block (physical sector)
<number. You then right-shift to scale for the physical sector size and the
<let the deblocking code wade through undoing that. FFFFH sectors is the 8M
<max allowable capacity, is it not? The bridge controller translates from
I said all this already.
<logical block numbers to cyl/hd/sec in some way they don't choose to tell u
<mere mortals.
It's not that majik, the bridge know the physical geometry passed on init
and the rest is math.
<OTOH, using the BDOS to do more of the work, sorta, you can map tracks int
<logical blocks, and use the sector number to point into the logical block a
<the appropriate 128-byte portion. What I'd like to know is what works best
<It's particularly important that this be small, since it's for CP/M 2.2.
I gave a few suggestions. Let the BDOS do the minimum, it's slow and
written using 8080 code. the real space eater is not the code to do this
but the allocation space. For a 8mb disk with 4k allocation that will
want 256bytes!, then there is the dir vector (another 128) deblock buffer
(512bytes or physical if different) so you have already used up 768bytes
and not written any code. Oh, you need to have a unique allocation space
for EVERY disk and if it's removable also CHK space that is half the size
of the allocation space and also unique.
<>to that to get the track offest for partitioning or system tracks.
<
<
<What do you find this does to your directory allocation scheme? I've neve
<quite figured out how to optimize the block size so you don't either run ou
<of directory entries or disk space far too soon.
That is a limitation of CPM. Block size affects the size of the 1byte file.
By that it limits the number of files on a disk if they are of minimum size.
for our 8mb disk you can use 2/4/8/16(32)k. If you use the smaller the
allocation space is 512bytes in size, use the larger(16k) it will be 64
bytes so you have a tradeoff there. Assume 4k block, that means the largest
number of files is 2047 so that limits the number of possible directory
entries on the high side. from there you have to know how the disk space
will likely be used and for many 2 blocks per file is a usable number so
we are now down to 1024 directory entries. From that we know an entry is
32bytes and an allocation block slected is 4k or 128 entries so we will
need 8 directory blocks to hold our directory. Done. Of course we can
assume we need 4 blocks for each file and use half the number of directory
blocks. This is a guess.
<Actually, it's a 99.25 MB disk. It's a miniscribe 3085 used with RLL.
<Since I have one of these lying about, and since the 4070 is an RLL bridge
<I thought I'd use those numbers.
You would have to partition it into 13 logical drives. Hint: don't mount
more than two or three at any time and create a MOUNT utility to select
what partitionis active and plug inthe tables for it. The amproLB bios
is a good choice for this. The number of logical drives including floppies
is a determining factor in BIOS size as you need the various Buffers and
Allocation Spaces (8 8mb drives at 4k would eat 2k of allocation space!).