- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by edick＠idcomm.com

The Feruson BIg Board ( of which I have a bunch) was single-density only, for which clock extraction was dirt simple. MFM requires a gentler hand. It was, as you suggest, straight from the WD App Notes. The Big Board-II used the 9216. Back in those days, there was a big fight between the analog guys and the digit-heads, and it didn't help a thing. It got me paid for designs that were never implemented on more than one occasion, even though my meticulously designed and carefully stolen and tested, then improved digital separators worked much faster and better than the analog ones. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow <aek(a)spies.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 6:18 PM Subject: Re: What's a WD2793A chip? >"I've often thought that a PAL or small CPLD would do the job. Has anyone >written the appropriate state machine or equations? >" > >From memory, didn't the Furgusson 'big board' use a digital data separator >that was a bipolar prom state machine? I know I've seen this same design in >several late 70's floppy controller boards (maybe it was even in the WDC >data sheets)

26 years, 2 months

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WD1770 help needed

by edick＠idcomm.com

Yes, I've considered that, but . . . there's a delay involved that wouldn't work with WD's chips unless you accumulate the pulses and disable ready. Then mask the delays by extending the head-load delay. Remember, every drive is different. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 6:12 PM Subject: Re: WD1770 help needed >"In the case of the 1771 and 179x series it's possible to build a really ne ><circuit I've seen but never tried to match, which uses the /TEST pin on th >< ><Sounds like an ideal candidate for reimplementation in a single chip ><microcontroller. > >Did that many years ago using 8748, worked very good too as I could count >the pulses then issue them out as a ramped rate so that the head was >accelerated and decelerated to the track. Didn't make any difference for >a few track move. Head movement that was about 15 tracks or more it was >very noticeable. CP/M does a lot of seek to the directory track (usually >track one or two) every time it writes an extent or closes/opens a file so >decreases in seek time payed nicely. > >Allison >

26 years, 2 months

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WD1770 help needed

by edick＠idcomm.com

It could be a microcontroller project, but it's easy enough if you use a relatively small CPLD. What's critical is that you need a VCO or some digital analog to it which causes the counters to run more quickly while the beginning track to ending track difference is large and ramps up slower than it ramps down. I'd not depend on that, since each drive will be different. It's best done, IMHO, if one uses a drive-resident circuit with slew rates tuned to the individual drive. Thos of us who can't remanufacture our drives NEED this in order to make our 8" drives stay well. I microcontroller could handle the job fine if it just could be adjusted with a pot rather than having to have parameters experimentally determined and then fit via cut-and-try. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow <aek(a)spies.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 2:51 PM Subject: Re: WD1770 help needed >"In the case of the 1771 and 179x series it's possible to build a really neat >circuit I've seen but never tried to match, which uses the /TEST pin on the >FDC to cause the device to put out its pulses much faster, allowing them to >be accumulated externally in a counter, which, drives a DAC which drives a >VCO, which drives the counter as it downcounts the number of steps, thereby >slewing the head assembly. This could lead to an interesting but lengthy >discussion. >" > >Sounds like an ideal candidate for reimplementation in a single chip >microcontroller.

26 years, 2 months

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WD1770 help needed

by Glenatacme＠aol.com

Hello all Sadly, the WD1770 fcd IC in my home-brew fd i/o board finally gave up the ghost. Fourteen years of service is admirable -- when it finally croaked, I felt like weeping. Additionally, in violation of my policy of *always* keeping spares of discontinued components which I use -- I have no spare. Does anyone know of a source for these? Or the 1772 (I believe Tony Duell once mentioned that the 1772 could replace the 1770 in most cases -- but I could be wrong). Also, I understand that the C64 floppy drives (1581?) used the 1770 but I'm not a commie and can't immediately verify this. Anyone out there with junk C64 drives who wants to liberate this IC -- to a good home?? Any help at all on this will be greatly appreciated. Glen Goodwin 0/0

26 years, 2 months

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What's a WD2793A chip?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<In going through and sorting my piles of classic ICs, I ran across this Wes <Digital WD2793A chip. What is it? Take a 1793 and put some of the stuff needed to make it useful on the die, call it 2793. Basically it's a 1793 with data sep and precomp logic built on. Allison

26 years, 2 months

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How many mistakes can YOU spot in this eBay ad?

by aek＠spies.com

"Oh, one BLINDING error. Wouldn't that hook up to a VAX? I passed on one about a year ago, and a lot of parts. Though I might have gotten some software for it in the mess of DEC stuff that I did get. " ..or a Unibus PDP-11. What kind was it? I have some docs on the FPS-100. I keep meaning to stop over at the Physiology Department of the Medical College of Wisconsin to find out what ever happened to that 11/44 and FPS-100 that I used to take care of..

26 years, 2 months

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What's a WD2793A chip?

by aek＠spies.com

"I've often thought that a PAL or small CPLD would do the job. Has anyone written the appropriate state machine or equations? " >From memory, didn't the Furgusson 'big board' use a digital data separator that was a bipolar prom state machine? I know I've seen this same design in several late 70's floppy controller boards (maybe it was even in the WDC data sheets)

26 years, 2 months

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Info needed: Eagle AVL S-100 computer

by allisonp＠world.std.com

drive and monitor for. The "monitor" looks like it started life as a 8" <security monitor. But I have to say that this is the first monitor that <I've ever seen that was connected with a coaxial cable with N-connectors! N??? more likely SO239 (matching plug is PL259). I still ahve a panasonic that was used for an apple][ /8" Monochrome TVscan rate/. <a general purpose S-100 computer. All the cards in it including the back <plane are marked "AV". There are warranty stickers in it dated 1978 and i <has an 8080 CPU. Does anyone have docs and software for it? Can't help on the computer from the description. Likely it's just another 8080 S100 box and therefor with the right floppy and boot proms quite useable for CPM (assuming enough ram). Allison

26 years, 2 months

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WD1770 help needed

by allisonp＠world.std.com

"In the case of the 1771 and 179x series it's possible to build a really ne <circuit I've seen but never tried to match, which uses the /TEST pin on th < <Sounds like an ideal candidate for reimplementation in a single chip <microcontroller. Did that many years ago using 8748, worked very good too as I could count the pulses then issue them out as a ramped rate so that the head was accelerated and decelerated to the track. Didn't make any difference for a few track move. Head movement that was about 15 tracks or more it was very noticeable. CP/M does a lot of seek to the directory track (usually track one or two) every time it writes an extent or closes/opens a file so decreases in seek time payed nicely. Allison

26 years, 2 months

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Macintosh Portable battery rebild follow-up.

by netsurfer_x1＠hotmail.com

This posting is a follow up to my Mac Portable battery post: The cost of the individual 2V 5.0 Ah "Cyclon" size "X" is $7.25 (USD). The total for 3 is $25 (USD), not including s&h charges. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

26 years, 2 months

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How many mistakes can YOU spot in this eBay ad?

by aek＠spies.com

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=253429580 Does anyone on the list even HAVE a working FPS-xxxx (any flavor) ? These have to be the white elephants of the 80's computing world. --al (who used an FPS-100 in the early 80's)

26 years, 2 months

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Info needed: Eagle AVL S-100 computer

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

HI, I found one of these today. I also found the keyboard, external floppy drive and monitor for. The "monitor" looks like it started life as a 8" security monitor. But I have to say that this is the first monitor that I've ever seen that was connected with a coaxial cable with N-connectors! It looks like this computer was designed to control an audio visual system. Can anyone tell me about the computer? I'm wondering if it's usefull for a general purpose S-100 computer. All the cards in it including the back plane are marked "AV". There are warranty stickers in it dated 1978 and it has an 8080 CPU. Does anyone have docs and software for it? Joe

26 years, 2 months

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What's a WD2793A chip?

by edick＠idcomm.com

A 1781? !!GAWD!! I've not seen even an oblique reference to that number since back in the '70's. Wasn't that the one that died with MMFM? I don't believe I ever saw one in the "flesh." Nevertheless, the difference between it and any other member of the WD 8"-drive-capable controller line is probably pretty minor. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 3:09 PM Subject: Re[2]: What's a WD2793A chip? >"Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote: >> That's correct, Eric, it's a direct replacement, functionally, for the 1793, >> with an analog clock extraction circuit. It has the limitation that the >> analog clock processing circuit requires a different lowpass filter for 8" >> and 5-1/4" drives, and, IIRC for FM or MFM. > >Hi > I have a iSBX card that I wrote a driver for that uses a >2793. It is software compatable with the 1793. It does >1.44M disk with the right clock. What I'd like to >know is what are the software requirements for a 1781? >Dwight >

26 years, 2 months

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What's a WD2793A chip?

by edick＠idcomm.com

That's correct, Eric, it's a direct replacement, functionally, for the 1793, with an analog clock extraction circuit. It has the limitation that the analog clock processing circuit requires a different lowpass filter for 8" and 5-1/4" drives, and, IIRC for FM or MFM. The 9216 and 9229 are external clock recovery circuits tailored for the 179x series, but can be replaced with a PAL. The 8-pin 9216 is pretty handy, but doesn't handle the write-precompensation which the 20-pin (?) 9229 does. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 1:46 PM Subject: Re: What's a WD2793A chip? >> In going through and sorting my piles of classic ICs, I ran across this >> Western Digital WD2793A chip. What is it? > >It's a later replacement for the 1793 FDC. But not a drop-in replacement. >It has an on-board analog data separator, while the 1793 required an external >data separator. > >Some of the other 179x replacements had better digital data separators. >I've personally always had good luck using the 179x with external >SMC 9216 or 9229 data separators, which are probably hard to get by now.

26 years, 2 months

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Announcement: CHANGES TO THE LIST

by west＠tseinc.com

Hokay... In my own opinion, most of the comments on the list about the reply-to function preferred the "old" method. A fair number of the people who preferred the "new" method have since publicly changed their mind. As a result, the list now has the reply address set to the list which is how it used to be before the move. I'd be happy to take any criticism for my handling of the situation: send those emails to dev-null(a)tseinc.com For the non-unix non-sendmail oriented on the list, that's a joke, don't bother sending. Now that the major issue appears to be resolved, I'm taking requests on any other list behaviour that people don't like. I don't promise to implement all of them, but I'll gladly take a look at it. Quite a few people sent me... er.... "suggestions", but because of all the flurry of activity related to the "reply-to" dilemma I didn't do a good job of tracking those other requests. Here's what I can remember: 1) verify that digests are being built 2) check if the digests are sent automagically or does the list owner have to "goose" them out 3) if they can be done automagically, get input from the digest users as to how often they want them sent 4) Verify that digest people are on the digest list, not the non-digest list 5) See if users can be allowed to send to the list without getting daily traffic If you have anything to add to the above, please DO send in the request to west(a)tseinc.com Regards, Jay West

26 years, 2 months

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More C= disks (was Re: WD1770 help needed)

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: > This is not really an OS issue. The PC disk controller can do MFM (and > some versions can do FM) recording. In other words, if the 1581 uses MFM > recording then most likely a PC controller can read its disks. If it uses > GCR, then it can't _no matter what OS is in use_. I meant that ISTR there is a utility that understands the 1581 filesystem for Linux, as well as the hardware being able to read the raw format. Sorry for the ambiguity. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 2 months

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C= disks (was Re: WD1770 help needed)

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> wrote: > On Feb 4, 11:43, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > The standard 5.25" drives _do_ use GCR for all native formats... > > I didn't know that. Did Commodore machines use a standard controller to > write the MFM, or did they use the same techniques as for the GCR? WD177x, AFAIK, in the 1570 (single-sided) and 1571 (double-sided) 5.25" disks and the 1581 (3.5") drive. > I know Amigas can read/write DOS disks, but they don't have any sort of > standard controller. Right. They can do MFM, GCR or whatever because the diskette interface is distributed amongst several custom chips including a 4096-bit shift register in the sound chip. The Amiga reads and writes an entire track at once and parses it in memory. The MFM stuff is efficient because it uses the masking logic of the graphic chip to convert MFM to binary and back. With a simple adapter, you can attach Macintosh drives to the Amiga and read/write _those_ as well (800K with a Mac drive, and 1.44Mb if your Amiga has a C= half-speed floppy drive). There is a read-only demo version of the Mac driver available, read-write is commercial software. There's even a floppy-based network for the Amiga, but it's around $100 per node. I was just at the web page for it this week. RG-58 cable, bus topology, and you can still have three floppy drives on the computer as well. It's great for those bitty-boxes that have no slots. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 2 months

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TRS Model 2/16 keyboard

by donm＠cts.com

I have a chap who is trying to resurrect a Model 16 that is sans keyboard. Does anyone have one that they can spare? - don

26 years, 2 months

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WD1770 help needed

by edick＠idcomm.com

If you love your old drives, you'll operate the stepper at it's optimum rate, which should be essentially noise-free. If you can hear your drives, you need to tweak the step rate, usually upward. One alternative is to ad a mux or whatever to change the speed to the FDC when the step pulses are being transmitted, as nothing else is happening then. Many drives need rates somewhat faster than what the standard controller issues, hence, it's a good idea to consider a fix, involving clock selection via the to match the drive select. In the case of the 1771 and 179x series it's possible to build a really neat circuit I've seen but never tried to match, which uses the /TEST pin on the FDC to cause the device to put out its pulses much faster, allowing them to be accumulated externally in a counter, which, drives a DAC which drives a VCO, which drives the counter as it downcounts the number of steps, thereby slewing the head assembly. This could lead to an interesting but lengthy discussion. The point is that if you want your drives to suffer the least possible wear >from off-rate stepping, you'll do SOMETHING to reduce vibration due to an incorrect step rate. The vibration is on the same axis as the eventual misalignment that will result. None of this applies to the 1770/1772, which have reasonbly fast but not fast enough step rates. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Friday, February 04, 2000 1:41 PM Subject: WD1770 help needed >> Hello all >> >> Sadly, the WD1770 fcd IC in my home-brew fd i/o board finally gave up the >> ghost. Fourteen years of service is admirable -- when it finally croaked, I >> felt like weeping. >> >> Additionally, in violation of my policy of *always* keeping spares of >> discontinued components which I use -- I have no spare. >> >> Does anyone know of a source for these? Or the 1772 (I believe Tony Duell >> once mentioned that the 1772 could replace the 1770 in most cases -- but I >> could be wrong). > >The 1772 appears to be identical to the 1770 apart from the step rates it >uses. If your drives can take said higher rates, then the 1772 will work >in your controller. > >The 1772 (although not the 1770) was, I believe, second-sourced by VLSI >(the company that made most of the ARM chips), as it was used in Acorn >Archimedes machines. The 1770 was used in later version of the BBC micro. > >The 1772 (I think) was used in Atari STs. > >I am not suggesting you raid a working example of any of these machines >for the chip, but maybe somebody has a dead ST with a working 1772 or >something. > >> >> Also, I understand that the C64 floppy drives (1581?) used the 1770 but I'm >> not a commie and can't immediately verify this. Anyone out there with junk >> C64 drives who wants to liberate this IC -- to a good home?? >> > >The 1570 and 1571 (5.25" CBM drives that could read GDR and MFM disks) >have a 1770 in them. Older CBM drives (1541, PET 5.25" drives) do not. I >don't know about the 1581. > >Again, I'd not want to raid a working unit for the chip. But if you have >a broken drive, it's a possible source. > >-tony >

26 years, 2 months

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Reply To: change

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Thank you Jay and Derek... it's my opinion that the List is better served by having the replies redirected back to itself. Now, about that HTML filter... Cheers John

26 years, 2 months

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A good way to find out what all those pesky IC's are

by xds_sigma7＠hotmail.com

Hi, I don't work for them or get any money for telling the list about it or anything like that, but I found http://www.icmaster.com and it works most of the time. It's best used to look up chips made by companies that are still in business, though. Will J ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

26 years, 2 months

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test reply-to - please ignore

by west＠tseinc.com

testing the reply-to configuration. Please ignore

26 years, 2 months

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WD1770 help needed

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Feb 4, 11:43, Ethan Dicks wrote: > --- Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> wrote: > > The 1772 was designed to be a plug-in replacement. The main (only?) > > difference is in the programmed step rates. > > I am looking at a WDC-1772. It has 28 pins. Doesn't the 1770 have 40 pins? No, you're thinking of a 1790. 1770 and 1772 are both 28-pin devices. There's also a 1772-2 which is just a mask revision of the 1772, and a 1772-2-2 which can run faster. Ataris sometimes have the latter. > The standard 5.25" drives _do_ use GCR for all native formats, but the later > stuff (1570/1571) also do MFM for CP/M compatibility. The aforementioned 1581 > is a 3.5" device (~720K; the not-released 1591 was ~1.44Mb) and does have some > form of MFM-capable chip, AFAIK. You can read 1581 disks in other machines, > Linux included, I think. I didn't know that. Did Commodore machines use a standard controller to write the MFM, or did they use the same techniques as for the GCR? I know Amigas can read/write DOS disks, but they don't have any sort of standard controller. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 2 months

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What's a WD2793A chip?

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

In going through and sorting my piles of classic ICs, I ran across this Western Digital WD2793A chip. What is it? Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 2 months

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WD1770 help needed

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Pete Turnbull <pete(a)dunnington.u-net.com> wrote: > On Feb 3, 22:53, Glenatacme(a)aol.com wrote: > > > Sadly, the WD1770 fcd IC in my home-brew fd i/o board finally gave up the > > ghost. > The 1772 was designed to be a plug-in replacement. The main (only?) > difference is in the programmed step rates. I am looking at a WDC-1772. It has 28 pins. Doesn't the 1770 have 40 pins? > > Also, I understand that the C64 floppy drives (1581?) used the 1770 but > > I'm not a commie and can't immediately verify this. > > I'd be surprised if so. I thought all Commodore micros apart from their > ill-fated PCs used GCR. The standard 5.25" drives _do_ use GCR for all native formats, but the later stuff (1570/1571) also do MFM for CP/M compatibility. The aforementioned 1581 is a 3.5" device (~720K; the not-released 1591 was ~1.44Mb) and does have some form of MFM-capable chip, AFAIK. You can read 1581 disks in other machines, Linux included, I think. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 2 months

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WD1770 help needed

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 1621 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000204/513f97ba/at…

26 years, 2 months

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To anybody & everybody who needs to rebuild their Macintosh Portable batteries.

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 727 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/attachments/20000204/f44fe1f1/at…

26 years, 2 months

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Last Find

by Hans.Franke＠mch20.sbs.de

Well, beside the anoying new headers there's still a CC-life (Ommmm :). As of my last stopover in the new world, I aquired a Tandy DT-1. Quite a cute pice of hardware. For the uninformed (as I have been until someone offered it to me via mail) it's basicly a Tandy Model III/IV case build as a Terminal. The Keyboard is a bit different labeled (of course), and the latch closing the empty FD slots is different than the one used on FD less M3/4 (suprise). Mine is working fine (except the A key), I just miss any kind of documentation at all. I'd apreciate any hint where to find more info or maybe manuals. A quick web search turned nothing up. Gruss H. A missing Reply-to header is a fool proof way to loose contact with your friends.

26 years, 2 months

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IBM parts to donate (fwd)

by dastar＠siconic.com

This guy has an IBM 5360 (huge beast) to give to a good home. He also wants to trade PDP and VAX stuff. Please reply directly to the original sender. Reply-to: cureau(a)pcstarnet.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 08:41:03 -0500 From: Chris Cureau <cureau(a)pcstarnet.com> To: sellam(a)siconic.com Subject: IBM parts to donate Hi there. :-) I've got an IBM 5360, a 5224 printer and two 5291 terminals with keyboards. If you're interested, please let me know... I'm also looking for a few parts for projects I'm working on...specifically from PDPs and MicroVAXen. If you'd like to trade, let me know. :-) Cheers, Chris Cureau Pumpelly Oil Company (337) 625-1117 Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details!

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list....

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Feb 3, 20:16, Allison J Parent wrote: > I had to edit the header again, or this reply would have gone to Eric. > > I checked what the mailer(RFDmail) at home does... Same thing it did > before. The last FROM: address it sees is the assumed reply address. In compliance with RFC 822. About the only thing that can legitimately override that is a "Reply-to:". I wonder why no-one has thought of simply swapping the "Sender:" and "From:" headers? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 2 months

2
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IBM card punches (was Re: Keydisc?)

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- James Willing <jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com> wrote: > Well... while I don't have one (tho it would look kool next to my '029) You have an 029? I've got an 026 that is in need of some cleaning/adjusting. Have you ever gone through the process? When we fire it up, not all the right things happen when feeding a card from the hopper. Where do you get your punch cards from? I know you can still order them, but I don't want to buy 10,000 cards at a time. I'm thinking more like a few hundred at a time, and a few colored cards for dividers. Also, do you have a set of the leaf-spring force measurement thingies? I need to aquire a set for the 026 and TTY adjustment, and have no idea where to buy them. Thanks, -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 2 months

3
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test

by west＠tseinc.com

Test... Jay West

26 years, 2 months

18
35
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Focal sources

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

Kevin wrote: >>Do you have the original source code for focal....I've looked at the >>focal.txt file, but i'd like to know how everything works >>JON > >I don't have the FOCAL source. I'm not sure it is available. Anyone comment? The DECUS PDP-8 Focal sources (in PAL10) are available. FOCAL.PA begins with: /**** FOCAL 5/69 **** /E.A.TAFT - REVISION OF FOCALW 8/68 /EAT/ 25-JUL-72 /ASSEMBLY INSTRUCTIONS FOR DECUS VERSION: /INPUT FILES: / FOCAL.569 FOCAL LANGUAGE PROCESSOR / FLOAT.569 FLOATING POINT PACKAGE / EXTEND.569 EXTENDED FUNCTION PACKAGE / 2USER.569 2-USER OVERLAY What I have is in the "nickel" PDP-8 DECTAPE archive rescued by me from the University of Indiana several years ago. The Focal stuff, in particular, is on the web at: http://www.trailing-edge.com/~shoppa/focal/ If you were asking about FOCAL-10 (for a PDP-10), this is available on the web as well, from the home to all good software that's PDP-10 related: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/www/lib10/0462/ If you want the PDP-11 (specifically, for RT-11) sources, you can find this at the Metalab.unc.edu PDP-11 archives as DECUS entry 11-0447. Go to http://metalab.unc.edu/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/ then go into the RT-11 archives, pick the "decus11" directory, and you'll see three 110477 directories (d1, d2, and d3), one for each original floppy. I also have much RSX and DOS-11 FOCAL stuff that's not indexed yet. I hope this helps. If none of these packages meets your needs, you might ask again for your specific platform(s). Enjoy! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

26 years, 2 months

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classiccmp-digest V1 #3

by foxvideo＠wincom.net

>Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 09:14:09 -0500 >To: classiccmp(a)opal.tseinc.com (This address bounced) From: "Charles E. Fox" <foxvideo(a)wincom.net> >Subject: Re: classiccmp-digest V1 #3 >In-Reply-To: <200002031957.NAA33069(a)opal.tseinc.com> > > > > Since the restart of classiccmp I have only been getting classiccmp-digest, not individual messages. This is really time consuming as I have to check the entire message and not just the header. Is this a feature of the new setup, or have I just been left off a list? > > Regards > > Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox Chas E. Fox Video Productions 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor N8Y 3J8 Ont. Canada email foxvideo(a)wincom.net Homepage http://www.wincom.net/foxvideo

26 years, 2 months

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WD1770 help needed

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Feb 3, 22:53, Glenatacme(a)aol.com wrote: > Sadly, the WD1770 fcd IC in my home-brew fd i/o board finally gave up the > ghost. Fourteen years of service is admirable -- when it finally croaked, > I felt like weeping. > Does anyone know of a source for these? Or the 1772 (I believe Tony Duell > once mentioned that the 1772 could replace the 1770 in most cases -- but I > could be wrong). The 1772 was designed to be a plug-in replacement. The main (only?) difference is in the programmed step rates. > Also, I understand that the C64 floppy drives (1581?) used the 1770 but I'm > not a commie and can't immediately verify this. I'd be surprised if so. I thought all Commodore micros apart from their ill-fated PCs used GCR. There are plenty of list members who know much more about C= stuff than I do, though... Atari STs used the 1772, so that's another potential source. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 2 months

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Focal

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

When requesting original DEC source code one must include flavor (12 bit, 16bit, 18bit, 36 bit) and vintage (Focal-1968, Focal-1969, Focal-1970, Focal 1.0b, etc), and style (preliminary, beta, released). I received a huge amount of original commented FOCAL source code/OP system source code in many different formats [paper tapes, dectapes, floppies, rk05 packs, etc..] from the DEC load. I hope to put the code online this year but....what do you need? john PDP-8 and other rare mini computers http://www.pdp8.com -----Original Message----- From: Kevin McQuiggin <mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca> To: Jon Andrews <Jon.Andrews(a)jaywalk.co.uk> Cc: classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org> Date: Thursday, February 03, 2000 10:35 PM Subject: Re: Focal >Hi Jon: > >I don't have the FOCAL source. I'm not sure it is available. Anyone comment? > >Kevin > >At 03:32 PM 00/02/03 +0000, you wrote: >>Do you have the original source code for focal....I've looked at the >>focal.txt file, but i'd like to know how everything works >> >>JON >> >> > >--- >Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD >mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca >

26 years, 2 months

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Focal

by mcquiggi＠sfu.ca

Hi Jon: I don't have the FOCAL source. I'm not sure it is available. Anyone comment? Kevin At 03:32 PM 00/02/03 +0000, you wrote: >Do you have the original source code for focal....I've looked at the >focal.txt file, but i'd like to know how everything works > >JON > > --- Kevin McQuiggin VE7ZD mcquiggi(a)sfu.ca

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list....

by mbg＠world.std.com

>NOBODY had any serious difficulty using the old system. That is an assumption on your part... it just so happens that some of us did have problems with the old system. It seems that maybe we just didn't complain about it enough... :-) >SOME people have some difficulty with the new system. Parity... In fact, for this 'response', I decided to simply make it a new 'send' to the list, so the original author won't get a second copy of this message... this is easier for me than to have to search for and then cut-and-paste the address of the author if I want to send just to them... after all, the list is at a fixed address (for now). After all that, however, I'm going to withdraw my vote for the new system, I'll abstain. I'll get by with whatever is available (so long as it isn't the HTML-cr*p)... I do like Sellam's argument about information lost due to doing a reply and having it go only to the author and not the list. My $.02 Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 2 months

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CDC 9448

by jeff.kaneko＠juno.com

Guys: Anyone out there that still uses these? I have a bunch of spares (boards and r/w heads) for 'em. If there's any interest, please e-mail me privately. Jeff ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

26 years, 2 months

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Identification of EPROM Programming board - AIM or KIM or ???

by whdawson＠mlynk.com

To All, I just obtained a board which I think is an EPROM programming board for the AIM or KIM or ???, and I'm trying to find some information on it. It is not an RM65 board, the connector looks like it would plug right to an AIM. Here is a description: Measures 4-7/16 (4.4375)inches wide by 6-1/2 (6.5) inches long, including edge connector, lengthwise insertion. 44 pin gold plated edge connector with a 44 pin socket mounted immediately behind and parallel to the edge connector, on the component side of the PCB. 24 pin ZIF connector in the upper LH corner, viewing with the edge connector facing me (all descriptions below assume this position). 10 position DIP switch immediately to the right of the ZIF socket (no labeling), and another 10 position dip switch about halfway up the RHS, labeled 1 to 7 and B, C, D (probably address selection since one row of pins is all tied common and most of the pins on the other side of it go to a 74LS154). One LED, immediately to the right of the first 10 position DIP switch mentioned above, at the edge of the board. Two trimpots about center of the far edge of the board, to the right of the LED. Two jumper blocks, one with 2 pins, labeled W1, and one with 3 pins, labeled RO and RA. Two Toshiba 24 pin TMM2016P-1 RAMs left of center in second row of DIPs on the board. One 2516-45 EPROM to the left of the RAMS, with a label on top "6517A". On the solder side the only markings (in etch) are CUBIT INC, 1981 and the numbers 10362 and 6583. Most of the date codes on the ICs are between 8037 and 8203. There is no other model number, manufacturer, or other ID marking on this board. If anyone has any information on this board, please let me know (through the list). Thanks all, Bill whdawson(a)mlynk.com

26 years, 2 months

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To anybody & everybody who needs to rebuild their Macintosh Portable batteries.

by netsurfer_x1＠hotmail.com

Great news! If there is anybody looking for replacement cells for their Macintosh Portable batteries, go to this site: http://www.hepi.com/ look for 2V 5.0Ah "Cyclon" size "X" cells They don't mention prices on the site, however, so buyer beware. Also, I don't want to get 20 e-mails saying that I led you to a company that ripped you off. I cannot, & will not, be held accountable for your actions! ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list....

by allisonp＠world.std.com

I had to edit the header again, or this reply would have gone to Eric. I checked what the mailer(RFDmail) at home does... Same thing it did before. The last FROM: address it sees is the assumed reply address. Oh well. Allison

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list....

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<I'm not sure what you mean, here. RFC 822 specifies that the Reply-To: <is to be set by the originator, but the rest of your post seems to <suggest that majordomo should change it. Could you clarify? < < -Rich Majordomo is the originator when we are talking mailing list. If you want replies to stay on list classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org (aka majordomo) should be the target address. Since I've edited the header the only reply to address should be Classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org and the poster, me. Allison

26 years, 2 months

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Sony SMC-70 floppy disks

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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26 years, 2 months

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IMPORTANT PLEASE READ

by west＠tseinc.com

I can't believe I heard someone say just go back to the old software. With the level of expertise of the people on this list, I should *NOT* have to say the following, but I'm apparently going to have to - PLEASE READ THIS: Majordomo is perfectly capable of making the list work just the way it always did. Period. It is not an issue of the list software forcing the configuration this way. It is not an issue with the host system. It is simply a configuration issue which can be easily changed. It can be done any way the folks here want it done and will work just as well as it always did. The problem I'm having is this: I am a relative newcomer to this list (about the last 12 months perhaps). I was not around when this list was started. As such, I have no knowledge as to if this list is owned by Derek and thus he has total sayso or if everything was always done by group concensus or what. I assumed (perhaps incorrectly - to this date I still have no idea if this is correct or not) that Derek ran the list. Please imagine my position. Everyone is saying do it one way or another and I don't know if I'm supposed to go with whatever Derek says or if I'm supposed to be listening and counting votes. I'm stuck in the middle because a fair number of folks aren't happy. I haven't received any email from Derek for several days so I don't know what should be done. I CAN do whatever should be done but SOMEONE has to tell me definitively what to do. My personal preference at this point is to change the configuration so that it works as it did on u.washington.edu. and we can always discuss the merits of doing it a different way later. That would be easy to do and I can do it right now. But there's the rub - if I go do that right now and make the reply-to stuff work the way it did am I stepping on Derek's toes? Or am I ignoring the will of the group? I would greatly appreciate it if someone could just authoritatively say "do it this way". I offered to do this free of charge and I have no problem with that at all. I just don't know who to listen to. Somebody educate me on this please. Jay West

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list....

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Feb 3, 18:00, Hans Franke wrote: > So here's my ME-TOO-NOT-LIKE-THE-NEW mail: > Last but not least, it's the RFC 822 way - and standards are the > only real chance to go along. Except that mailing lists are not what RFC 822 defined "Reply-to:" for. Its primary purpose is quite different; it's to force a reply to a valid address when the sender's "From:" is not valid. Quote: "The "Reply-To" field is added by the originator" The RFC 822 method would be to set the "From:" field to "classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org" , and set the "Sender:" field to the name of the person who originated the message (which is exactly the opposite to what majordomo is doing, I notice, but that's perfectly legitimate). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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26 years, 2 months

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Sony SMC-70 floppy disks

by jmd＠infinet.com

Hi all........ Good to see the list back again...... Recently I picked up a Sony SMC-70 with CP/M for Sony on floppy disks. I have recreated what the original owner had by purchasing the same model monitor and using his cable to connect the computer to the monitor. This is not the OEM monitor (anybody know what was?) but this setup worked for him. When I turn on the computer it scans for the floppy in a:, b: and then pauses and comes back to a: and reads the disk for about 12 seconds. Nothing more happens. There is no display on the screen. If I leave the a: drive empty and have *any* floppy in b: the computer scans a:, then b: goes back to b: for a couple of seconds then begins to beep until I put a floppy in a:. Still nothing on the screen. There is a switch on the side that has 3 options: OFF DISK ROM I have tried all three with no output to screen. Things I have done. 1) Double checked the pinouts against the drawing I was given. 2) I have tried the cable that connects to a B/W port on the box. I connect this to video on the monitor. 3) I have tested the monitor. I know it works in TV and video mode, but have no way to test for RGB. Which is how I am connecting. I am wondering if the floppies may have gone bad. (There are 4 disks labeled CP/M 2.2 and one also says Sony CP/M 2.2) They have been laying around for several years I think. If this is a possibility does anyone have known good floppies? thanks for any info jeff duncan

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list....

by Philip.Belben＠powertech.co.uk

>> >> The best text on the subject i've seen is ``Reply-To'' Munging Considered >> Harmful by Chip Rosenthal. >> >> http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html > > And the rebuttle: http://www.metasystema.org/reply-to-useful.mhtml > > I personally like Reply-To: set to the mailing list. All the lists I'm on > are set up that way and there have been no problems that I could see (yes, > you see the occasional private message sent but it's not that big a > problem). Hello again everyone! Good to be back! I have read both the above web articles. I'd like to cast my vote in favour of REPLY-TO: == THE LIST Why? 1. I don't want to receive two messages when someone replies to me and the list 2. With the old system, if someone forgot to change the header, there was a spurious message, which I deleted. Some people might object to the waste of bandwidth, but it merely gave me one extra message to delete. With the new system, if someone forgets to change the header, the information doesn't reach the list. This causes a bigger waste of bandwidth, because you get more people answering the same question, not having seen each other's replies. And it stifles discussion, because replies-to-replies often never get generated (and these are sometimes the most useful). So the new method gives less info to the list for more use of bandwidth. IMHO, not good. I am on several lists, of which about half work the old way (reply to the list by default). This is very convenient on all of them. Of the others, on the one where I have asked questions I have received substantially the same reply privately from several people, but the discussion hasn't borne fruit on the list. Just my two penn'orth... Philip. PS I almost forgot to edit the addressees of this one... ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. Power Technology Centre, Ratcliffe-on-Soar, Nottingham, NG11 0EE, UK Tel: +44 (0)115 936 2000 http://www.powertech.co.uk **********************************************************************

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Feb 3, 21:50, Tony Duell wrote: > > The reasons you give for wishing to change back are the reasons I wish > > things to stay as they are now. I hit "Reply to All" and the reply goes to > > you, and to the list. I hit "Reply", and only you get the reply. I can > > Ah, but that doesn't work properly if you're replying to a message that > somebody else has already group-replied to. > > Supposing you post to classiccmp, and I group-reply. The message is now > going to classiccmp@... _and you_. Suppose Philip Belben then > group-replies to the message. It now has you, me, and the list as > addresses. Then Megan (say) group-replies to that. Before long, the > header contains the address of every 'regular' here. And we all get > things twice. > > The only ways for me to reply to the list _only_ seem to be : You missed one: "reply-all" and remove the original author's address. It obviously depends on the mailer(s) involved. With the one I use nearly all the time (zmail under Unix), if I hit "reply all" then both the list and original author addresses appear in the "To:" header, and because of the way that's presented by this particular mailer, it's easy for me to remove the one I don't want (two keystrokes). However, if I reply to a followup that someone else has already responded to, and that message has the list address in the "Cc:" instead of the "To:" header, zmail keeps it in the "Cc:" and it means two more keystrokes to fix. I can do exactly the same thing in BSD Mail but it take an extra keystroke or two. And I apologise not always practising what I preach, i.e. for sending 3 extra copies of an earlier followup :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 2 months

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IBM card punches (was Re: Keydisc?)

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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26 years, 2 months

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150 kVA Topaz available

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Here at wurk they have decomissioned a largish computer room, shipped off all the 'puters in their crates, and disposed of the above-captioned Topaz unit. It has Model number A9-M150, and has three seperate breaker sections in it, each with 30 or so single-phase breakers, one 225 A disconnect per section, and a 300A main breaker, as well as the displays for the input and regulation sections. It is big, heavy +/- 1 kilopounds, on wheels... Any interest? It can be had fairly cheaply, and must have been in the $20K range new. E-mail me off list if interested. Cheers John

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list....

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Feb 3, 19:09, Tony Duell wrote: > > Several people wrote.... > > > I wonder if you would prefer if the "Respond To" portion should be: > On the other hand, the lists that have Reply-to: pointing to the list > almost always have a lot of discussion on them. Interesting observation, and whilst I don't doubt Tony's word, I can't help noticing that an awful lot of discussion seems to have managed to make it's way onto the list today! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd)

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Feb 3, 7:59, Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: > My mailer doesn't "click"... > > On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, David C. Jenner wrote: > > > I vote for the new way. It's now trivial to > > reply either to the sender alone, the sender > > and the list, or the list alone. > > > > With a decent mailer each of these options is > > now one click. Maybe Aaron has soundless keys :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 2 months

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Not setting Reply-To: affects me this way ...

by spc＠armigeron.com

I just realized another annoyance I'm encountering because of the lack of Reply-To---I now have to search for mail I've sent. I use elm. I've been using elm since 1989 and I have no plans to change that any time soon (I've tried pine and I don't care for it). One setting I have enabled on elm is saving all email I send out. Such email is stored based upon the email address being sent to. Since a group reply places the list address in the Cc: line, the email is still stored, but not under the classiccmp folder (file actually), but a different folder. So now I have to search (grep) through 231 (at of right now) folders for messages I send to classiccmp. That also means when I want to save a particular message it won't be stuffed under the classiccmp folder by default (I'm used to hitting 's-enter' and now that does The Wrong Thing). But majordomo (or any mailing list software) is still RFC-822 compliant even if it does set the Reply-To: field and it seems to me that the annoyance having to do a 'group' reply outweighs the benefit of `reply' going to the list. So, what exactly, is the problem (really, no hypothetical pathological cases here) of setting the Reply-To: field? -spc (Yes, I should clean out my folders ... )

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list....

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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26 years, 2 months

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Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

On Feb 3, 8:10, John Lawson wrote: > In all this discussion of the New Classiccmp regime... I would > like to weigh in with Allison on the issue of HTML and Binary > attachments propagated to this List. [...] > If this instance of majordomo has such filters, I, for one, would > like to see them energized.... I was about to "second" Allison, but I'll "third" John instead since he beat me to it :-) I don't mind the bandwidth (though I might if HTML became more common), it's just that it's a nuisance to read HTML (or anything with "alternate-part"s) in another window, so I just skip over it with the delete key. And my non-Microsoft mailers on no-M$ OSs don't handle some of their more execrable alternatives anyway. As far as I'm concerned, email is an ASCII (or perhaps ISO-8859-X) medium. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 2 months

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Vocal Minority

by jpl15＠netcom.com

In all the interesting discussion re: the 'reply' function (and I am a tad annoyed that I have to get two copies of each reply, from each person who replies, to a message that I posted, separated by as much as 15 minutes) I got to thinking that there might be 25 or 30 listmembers who actively post messages out of... ??? how many subscribers? 200? 400? Are (we) attempting to dictate list policy for the majority? Is anyone keeping even a rough record of the 'Old' vs 'New' camps? If votes be kept... I am tending to like the 'Reply To:' functionality the way it >WAS< ... ie' hitting 'reply' [in Pine] replies to the List and not to the Poster. I am one of those who has no control over the configuration of Pine, and, it would seem, neither does anyone else at Netcom/Mindspring/Earthlink, or whatever they're called *this* week. ;} obclassiccmp: Speaking of S/N ratios... I got a pair of DEC Pro-350 machines, with a large amount of original software packages, documentation etc... are there any other 300/350 owners out there who are trying to restore a system? I may be able to help with printsets, etc. Cheerz John PS: Classiccmp Mantra: "OM! Its only a hobby; Its only a hobby; Its only a hobby; Its only........."

26 years, 2 months

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Send Again instead of Reply

by mikeford＠socal.rr.com

I was just sitting looking at the headers, and it dawned on me, instead of reply I could just do a "send again" since the TO: header has the list address. This is using Eudora 3.1 on a Mac, but may apply to others as well.

26 years, 2 months

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DEC Hardware in Kansas City, TK25, RD53

by mmcfadden＠cmh.edu

For all you mature computer lovers I just came across the following, I'm looking for a home for it. 2 TK25 tape drives in desktop cases 1 RD53 disk in desktop case 1 desktop case, looks like MicroVax2000 external disk or tape case. Mike mmcfadden(a)cmh.edu

26 years, 2 months

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UnknownTI Hardware in Kansas City

by mmcfadden＠cmh.edu

Back to old computers I came across a TI system 1100 in my surplus excavations. I haven't found anything on the Web about it. It's not a TI explorer. It looks like a blue-Grey deskside case. I've searched both TI's web site which indicates they sold all UNIX hardware to HP. I've searched HP's web site which is not very informative. Any information out there? Mike If I had kept one of every computer I've programmed I would be living in a warehouse without family or pets, but I would have lots of fun. mmcfadden(a)cmh.edu

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list....

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

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26 years, 2 months

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Reply-to amd &%^$^ HTML crap

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Hmmmm... seems to me, running Pine as I do, that the "reply to" issue, in my particular case, breaks down to laziness on my part: Two keystrokes to set up a reply vs. replacing the Original Sender's name with the list name. And I'm sure I could automate it but... why? If I had my druthers, I'd vote for the "old" way, however it's almost a non-issue with me, and it even provides for a little 'breathing room' right before I blast off a piquant reply that, in the fulness of time, may or may not have been a little rash. NOW, FURTHERMORE: In all this discussion of the New Classiccmp regime... I would like to weigh in with Allison on the issue of HTML and Binary attachments propagated to this List. I belong to 6 other lists besides this one, and four have some kind of HTML filtering and binaries-rejectors. I dislike, and delete unread, HTML stuff, because this is an ASCII list and I engage it with an ASCII mailreader. Yes, I have PPP accounts and Netscrape and all the rest, but my central (and voluminous) corespondence is carried on Pine under a Unix shell account, and I ain't changin' it. [I offer Kevin Murrel's post above as a non-rancorous example] IMHO, it does little or no good to try and 'police' the issue case-by-case, due to the influx of new members and existing members forgetting or not caring. Most folk here are pretty sensitive to this, I have found, once made aware that HTML is displayed in it's raw state for many of Us. And I think it's much prettier cooked. It does seem to be a losing battle in the long run. If this instance of majordomo has such filters, I, for one, would like to see them energized.... Cheers John

26 years, 2 months

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Simon Plans

by marvin＠rain.org

I received a number of private emails regarding the plans for the Simon relay computer, and I have sent out a couple of CDs with the scans of the article. Thanks to those of you who had suggestions for shringing down the file size. The total size runs about 270Mb on the TIFF scans sent out on CD (tranlates to about 8 MB per page.) I don't have software tools to try out some of the compression schemes so I will leave them as is for now. At this point, I am slowly looking for and acquiring the parts to build the thing. It looks like it would be a real trip to build and operate a computer capable of handling a 5 bit number :).

26 years, 2 months

1
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HTML and RTF mail -- Not entirely user control

by kla＠helios.augustana.edu

I, too, dislike HTML and RTF mail. I usually read all of my e-mail lists in digest form (which I am waiting to have activated for this list...), which means HTML letters cannot easily be deleted (a small price to pay). Most lists I am on filter those out at the server end. At the same time, any time you get a new user, you usually have to be patient and tell them how to turn off that feature if they are Netscape or IE user. But that isn't the only issue.... More serious, however, is that user may not be in full control over the turning off of that feature. The ISP and/or the organzation you work for may have control over the form that mail goes out onto the Internet. A good instance is the college I work for, and others that depend upon Microsoft Exchange Servers (regardless of the client end). Normally in X.400 protocol, when mail does go out the SMTP pipeline (such as to this list) the mail still goes out in HTML. My computer center apparently doesn't know how to turn that off (or will not do it), although I've asked them many times. They, like Microsoft, are counting on the users at the other end being individuals using either a browser interface or an Exchange-compatible client, both which will know how to deal with non-text files. So it becomes an institutional problem, out of control of the user. I get around it because I also have access to a Unix box, which is what I use for all e-mail list interactions. Expect this type of problem to happen more and more into the future as more users come online with non-Text based e-mail clients. Me and you folks will be unfortunately the exception. As a sidebar, I can take the "reply to" feature either way -- as a digest user for all my e-mail lists, I always have to cut-and- paste my address and subject lines (or retype them), as a reply would go only to the list (and never to the user), plus the subject line would be all wrong (Re: Digest 1002...; not to forget that I will have Mbytes of reply text to edit each time) My recommendation would be to follow whatever the current RFC standard is -- after all, the Internet functions only because people have adopted protocols. My two cents worth... Regards, Kevin Anderson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Kevin L. Anderson Ph.D., Geography Department, Augustana College Rock Island, Illinois 61201-2296, USA phone: (309) 794-7325 e-mail: kla(a)helios.augustana.edu -or- gganderson(a)augustana.edu * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Opinions expressed here are my own and do not represent the administration of Augustana College.

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list...

by flo＠rdel.co.uk

Rats...just been caught by the new reply mechanism. Grrr "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > >And while we are on the topic of the list server, is it possible to have a > >common date stamp put on all messages that are sent out from the listserver? > >One of the major pains I have is when messages come in from different time > >zones, and this ^%$^&$ software (Netscape Mail) sorts the damn stuff by date > >without the option of not sorting. Among other reasons, a common date stamp > >makes it FAR easier to keep track of who might be responding to something > >first. > > Oh, now that would be SERIOUSLY COOL! I'm using Eudora and sort stuff by > date also. Drives me crazy when people have the clock on their computer > *seriously* off. > > Although, thankfully doesn't sound like I've as much trouble as Netscape > Mail causes. I'd be surprised if Eudora used a different method of determining the date and time for sorting purposes than Netscape does. Your message, for example, was apparently sent at 00:44:48 -0800, and displays on my screen as 08:44, because I'm on GMT (and using Netscape Messenger). So, we're both reliant on senders having their clocks and timezones set correctly. I'd object to some central server forging the best indication you've got of how far along a conversation had got at the time I replied.

26 years, 2 months

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VCF Europe Announcement

by dastar＠siconic.com

Ok, Hans Franke informs me that VCF Europe in Munich, Germany, is set for April 29th and 30th! More details to follow as I get them. The VCF website will be updated as time permits. A VCF Los Angeles is being considered, as well as a VCF East. And as always, VCF 4.0 will be held somewhere in the Silicon Valley sometime in the Fall. VCF: Coming to a town near you! It's like the circus, but better (we don't have any stupid clowns). Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF Europe: April 29th & 30th, Munich, Germany VCF Los Angeles: Summer 2000 (*TENTATIVE*) VCF East: Planning in Progress See http://www.vintage.org for details!

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd)

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

> I'm not saying any of this to say how it should be set up. That's not my > call. I'm just saying what I've typically seen on other lists. If Derek > wants it changed to the old method, he can do it or he can call me to do it. > > I personally prefer the new way, but my vote doesn't count! :) > > Jay West I personally vote for the old way! I'm on quite a few different ML's and only the DECnet/Linux one does it this way. It's more of a pain to have to get the correct TO: with it set this way that the old way! Especially if I'm using 'elm', like right now, since I either have to forward it to the ML, or remember to chage the TO: after I'm done typing the message. Zane

26 years, 2 months

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HOT TIP - System Available?

by bill_r＠inetnebr.com

Tracked it down; Wayne is no longer with them. They are going to double-check, but it sounds like I may be driving up there to get it this weekend.. ;-) Thanks! (On a sad note, the engineer said they "threw away an Altair" before he found out about it. I was ready to go excavate in the dump, but he said that was like 10 years ago. *sigh) >I was advised by a non-classiccmp'er yesterday that a PDP-11 type system in >some kind of rack is being decomissioned and is available. > >Contact Wayne Nelson of SDPTV in Vermillion, South Dakota - quickly > >That's all the contact info I currently have. > >Regards, > >Jay West > > Bill Richman incolor.inetnebr.com/bill_r (Home of the COSMAC Elf microcomputer simulator!)

26 years, 2 months

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HOT TIP - System Available?

by west＠tseinc.com

I was advised by a non-classiccmp'er yesterday that a PDP-11 type system in some kind of rack is being decomissioned and is available. Contact Wayne Nelson of SDPTV in Vermillion, South Dakota - quickly That's all the contact info I currently have. Regards, Jay West

26 years, 2 months

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HP 98XX IFs & S100

by Innfogra＠aol.com

Nice to have the list back. I have to use the reply to all and edit the individual out of the send to box but I don't mind. I know the list doesn't like ePay so I hope I don't start a flame war. I'm dumping S100 cards and HP 98XX interfaces there now. Not all the time do things bring high prices. I just sold a HP 9820 interface for under $10. Most of the interfaces and cards are running between $10 and $15 including an original Cromemco HD. This is much easier for me than having to haggle over prices. If you are interested my sellers name is 'innfosale'. Use ebay's seller search to find my items. Most are in vintage computer hardware with some in mainframes. There will be more in the future. I have been suffering withdrawals over not having the list also. Many thanks for the list and ALL who comment. Paxton Portland, OR, USA PS It is a lot of fun to be on late at night and see comments come in from around the world.

26 years, 2 months

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reply address setting explanation

by west＠tseinc.com

And - just so folks know... I didn't intentionally change the way the reply-to address works, even though I prefer the new method. When I set up the list I just installed a separate copy of majordomo "straight out of the box". We host all our customer lists with majordomo, primarily because majordomo is virtually the de-facto standard for internet mailing lists world-wide. Yes, there are other mailing list server packages, but none seem to have the installed base of majordomo. The default installation of majordomo does what - you guessed it - reply-to is NOT munged. Gee - I wonder why the author of majordomo did that. Hum... I installed the standard default configuration, did some testing, and started it back up. I'm so used to mailing lists having the reply-to set to the original poster it really didn't dawn on me that classiccmp was set differently although I knew that full well. The change was not intentional. After the first post or two I saw about this topic I was going to change it to work like the old list because obviously that's how it WAS set up. Then I saw the lively discussion and thought perhaps its better to have everyone get their opinions in and let any changes be determined without me. As you might infer from previous posts, I don't want to be making any changes on my own.... Regards, Jay West

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING

by pete＠dunnington.u-net.com

First of all, "Thanks!" to Jay for getting the list going again. The withdrawal symptoms are beginning to wear off now :-) On Feb 2, 23:56, DASTAR COM wrote: > On Wed, 2 Feb 2000, Jay West wrote: > > > I've always wondered why the list was set up the way it was. > Because: > > b) who the hell wants to have to read the same message TWICE? (once from > the list and once from the replier) Sellam has a point here; it is considered bad netiquette to do that, and that's why newsreaders, for example, won't get the GNSA if they allow a followup posting to also be emailed to the author automatically. However, this isn't usenet, and it's easy in most mailers to remove the extra address. I hope people do so, and I hope they'll also forgive me when I forget :-) > c) it's an incredible pain in the ass having to edit the reply-to > addresses for every damn message you reply to Virtually all mailers have a "reply all" function. I can think of just one exception, and that's a mailer intended as a local delivery agent, not a mail user agent. > Besides, despite what the aforementioned article says, the previous list > reply-to mechanism was working, and working well. The article is just a > masturbatory entreaty for one persons personal preferences, and does not > really take into account convenience for the overall list. No, it isn't. There are good reasons for the "Reply-to:" header to override the "From:" address, where the "From:" address is not valid or correct for incoming mail. That's more common than many people think. If you use "Reply-to:" for list redirection, that breaks, and irrevocably removes the correct address for replies to the author. Although old habits die hard, and it will take a little getting used to, I prefer the new method. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Dept. of Computer Science University of York

26 years, 2 months

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FW: AS/400 questions...

by JRichardson＠softwright.co.uk

OK, welcome back everyone.... I'm not sure if this email made it to the old list before it was stopped, so I'm resending (in other words, sorry if you've seen it twice!!) >Technically this shouldn't quite make the list (the machine's of 1991 vintage >apparently), but my work's throwing out an old AS/400 - I know nothing at all >about these machines but if it's getting slung then I may as well grab it and >take a look at the thing... > >Model number is 9404, big tower-style case, 8" floppy and (I believe) 150MB >QIC tape drive. > >It's got a console/terminal of some sort which is apparently dead (I haven't >looked at the cabling - can I wire up just about anything as a console or do >they use some strange protocol / signal levels?). Nobody knows how much disk >or memory it has in it and it hasn't been powered up in years. There's a box >of assorted junk with it, cables, keyboard etc. and someone said there's a >load of tapes for it too... > >So, initial questions: > >Does anyone have any handy web links to AS/400 stuff so I can get some more >information on this thing? (and AS/400s in general) > And does anyone know how hard OS install media is to get hold of from >IBM? It may be that someone here has the tapes (or whatever) but I'm not sure >(I'll try to hunt them out later). I don't know if I can be bothered >transporting it home when I don't even know if it works and possibly don't >have installation media if the system needs rebuilding!! > >cheers > >Jules >

26 years, 2 months

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Major gripe

by dastar＠siconic.com

Ok, major gripe. With the old software, I could stay subscribed to the list to send messages, but could SET POSTPONE CLASSICCMP to effectively turn the messages off. There doesn't seem to be a way to do this with majordomo. I'll stay subscribed for now (so I can get some replies on this) but if I have to unsubscribe then I hope there is an easy mechanism for me to continue to post messages to the list without having to be subscribed. If not, I don't think I'll be passing on any messages from people coming to me with old hardware wanting to find new homes for it. Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Looking for a six in a pile of nines... VCF East? VCF Europe!? YOU BETCHA!! Stay tuned for more information or contact me to find out how you can participate http://www.vintage.org

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list....INTERESTING

by mbg＠world.std.com

>a) it makes it more of a BBS, with all messages being contributed to the > public good by default instead of private threads being spawned off Which is still accomplished when someone replies to all >b) who the hell wants to have to read the same message TWICE? (once from > the list and once from the replier) Hey, these are computers! Certainly there has to be some way of telling it to send to the list rather than the list *and* the author (who is on the list). >c) it's an incredible pain in the ass having to edit the reply-to > addresses for every damn message you reply to And it is more of a pain having to find the author name and then do cut and paste to send to them specifically... some of us don't have mail readers which even allow us to change the To: or CC: field (or anything other than the message) once we're typing the message... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 2 months

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PDP8/S then GRI-909 and the perhaps a british machine called the Molecular?

by kevinm＠xpuppy.freeserve.co.uk

Many years ago I worked on a minicomputer range manufactured in the UK. The series was the Molecular 18 sold by BCL Ltd. Having an interest in this machine, and in PDP8 machines, I have been looking for links between the two. (The two machines have quite a few similarities) In an interview, Saul Dinman (who designed the PDP8/S) talks about a later design called the GRI-909. Saul had left DEC at this stage I believe. The company that manufactured the early Molecular 18 machines in the UK was Allied Business Computers, who also produced a machine called the GRI-99. This all may be coincidence and fanciful, but does any one have any information of the GRI range of machines? (For more info on the Molecular 18, see www.classiccomputing.co.uk) Kevin Murrell UK

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd)

by mbg＠world.std.com

I vote for the new way as well... it is now trivial for me to respond to either the author of a message or the list itself. Before, I had to do a cut and paste of the author's name in order to send mail to them... Yes, there will be occasions in which people send to an author when they meant the list, but heck, we've already had that in reverse... and for some messages it is most definitely more embarrassing to have them go to the list... So please keep it the new way... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

26 years, 2 months

1
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Yeah Baby! VAX 4000/300 questions

by cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com

Boy, is it glad to have this resource back! I received a VAX 4000/300 and have been integrating it into my VAX herd but it has the annoying tendency to _always_ ask for my language preference on power on. I've done the 'set language' and I've tried the dial selector in all three positions but no joy. The other thing this VAX came with was a "remote service console" or some such. It looks like a powered A/B switch except that you switch it with the VAX key, it has two sets of three push buttons and four DB25 connectors on the back. Can anyone tell me how to use this thing? --Chuck

26 years, 2 months

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regarding the reply address on the list.... (fwd)

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- "David C. Jenner" <djenner(a)halcyon.com> wrote: > I vote for the new way. It's now trivial to > reply either to the sender alone, the sender > and the list, or the list alone. > > With a decent mailer each of these options is > now one click. I don't mind the new way (I use a web-based mail interface due to all the attachments I get from another list and can click "Reply" or "Reply All"), but how are the posters of articles going to feel about receiving a response twice to their postings, once direct and once via the list? If people don't mind, I don't mind either. It was always extra work to reply to an individual with the old scheme. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

26 years, 2 months

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Welcome Back! and Pro 350's

by jpl15＠netcom.com

Very Big Welcome Back to the List... I was just starting to not be able to control my withdrawal symptoms. Many Many thanks to Jay and Derek for keeping this alive! While the List was sleeping, I was given two DEC Pro 350's, with a huge box of software and docs. I have one up and running now, using a VR241 RGB color display. (I have yet to try the other unit.) I have about 20 grey DEC slipcover-type software packages, with 14 or so being the communications set, but I also have the Install and Maintenance, both Disk systems, Basic, Prose, and a third-party database application builder called RDM by Interactive Technology Inc. (2 copies of this). All of the slipcases contain diskettes, and most are still unopened internally. Also in the load was the Technical manual and the engineering printsets. Additionally there is a Floating Point adapter in it's box... the maintenance program informs me that the unit I have running contains one already, and 768 KW of RAM to go with the 5-meg Hard Drive. I have no idea what this model must have cost in 1982 when it was new, with 8-of-256 colors and as slow as it is... but it sure is fascinating to see how far we've come. Cheers John

26 years, 2 months

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List starting up....

by west＠tseinc.com

Test part two..... Howdy folks. The classiccmp list appears to be working. There are still some questions about if digests are working properly among a few other housekeeping things that need to be more thoroughly tested. Please bear with us as we work out any kinks. First, some general points to everyone: *I* am not the classiccmp list owner or moderator, I only administer the servers where it runs. Derek still is the owner of the list and as such is the one who "calls the shots". Because of that, if there are any problems with the mailing list, please contact Derek and not me. I will gladly assist Derek anytime he requests it in any way he wishes. If there is a very critical issue that Derek can't respond to (out of town, sick, etc.) feel free to email me the request. However, depending on what you ask I reserve the right to say "That will have to wait until Derek can act on it" because I'm not here to "step on his feet". Of course if the list just simply isn't working at all, you can bet I'll take a look at it quickly. Please keep the list traffic low until Derek has a chance to make any announcements. I'm getting ready to email him the admin issues now. Quick summary: For help with majordomo, email majordomo(a)classiccmp.org with keyword "help" To subscribe, email majordomo(a)classiccmp.org with keyword "subscribe classiccmp" To unsubscribe.... that's obvious.... To send out list traffic, email classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org Final note - Anything I've just said can be over-ruled by Derek, so if he posts a startup announcement it'd be a good thing to read. Regards, Jay West

26 years, 2 months

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WPL file (PFS WinWorks Spreadsheets)

by generic3＠home.com

I am trying to find a converter or reader for .WPL file (PFS WinWorks Spreadsheets} Any thoughts ????????? ------------------------------------------------------ On-Line Computer & Video Game Garage Sale http://www.voicenet.com/~generic gene(a)ehrich.com generic3(a)home.com Gene Ehrich

26 years, 2 months

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Getting out of collecting, mostly

by jim＠calico.litterbox.com

After some soul searching, I've finally realised I really don't want to collect anymore. No, it has nothing to do with anyone or anything that has happened on this list, and because I'm keeping my Vax (to hopefully do useful work for me) I'll still be here on this list. I've just realised that *having* these machines doesn't do alot for me, and I don't seem to bother messing with them very often. So what this means is I'm beginning the process of liquidating my collection. Ideally I'd like to sell to people in the Colorado Springs/Denver metro area so shipping isn't as much of a pain, but we'll see how it goes. The way I'm going to work this is: If you are interested in a piece, e-mail me privately. I'll 1. Make sure the piece works. When my shelves got knocked over a lot of hardware got dumped on the floor. 2. Negotiate a price with you. 3. Negotiate delivery methods with you. I'm not looking to turn a profit on most of this stuff - I just want to get rid of it and see that it goes to a good home. What I have: Apple2 GS #1. 8mb of Ram, ramfast SCSI, 120 meg (I think) SCSI disk (no enclosure for the disk) 1 3.5 inch apple floppy drive, 1 5.25 inch apple floppy drive. 1 monitor. Apple2GS #2 4mb of RAM, parallel card, 2 3.5 inch apple floppy drive, 2 5.25 inch apple floppy drives. Monitor may work, but both the system and the monitor fell off the shelf they were on when a cat managed to push the shelves over. Apple2E Enhanced apple2E ROMS, 64 K of RAM. Ramfast SCSI, 40 meg SCSI hard disk (no enclosure for disk) 2 5.25 inch apple floppy drives. 1 monitor. 1 kensington system saver. Tiger Learning Computer - Not really a classic except that inside what looks like a laptop (but isn't - it has no integral screen) is an apple2C with cartrige drives. Hooks to your TV. This one amuses me a lot, so unlike the rest it will require significant cash to separate it from me. Commodore 64 nasty looking, but works fine. New keyboard. Includes 1541 floppy drive and new monitor cable. Squeeky clean inside, since I used its motherboard to verify that yes, washing them in the dishwasher IS ok. Kaypro 4/84 Good condition, both drives work. Some software. Misc Monitors one commodore monitor - barely works. 1 cga/ega (not sure which) might work, don't have the hardware to test it. Misc 486 PC hardware - again, not quite classic, although I think the original 486 might be by now. Misc Apple2GS software - many titles old and new. New includes Orca C. -- Jim Strickland jim(a)DIESPAMMERSCUMcalico.litterbox.com ----------------------------------------------------------------------- BeOS Powered! -----------------------------------------------------------------------

26 years, 2 months

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Very Good!

by ks＠coastalnet.com

Looks like the new server is up... have really missed all that daily info! Kirk Scott ks(a)coastalnet.com

26 years, 2 months

1
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test

by aek＠spies.com

looks like it's working while the list was down, this was sent to me: Subject: Orphaned Altos 586 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Status: RO I have a working system with all software and documentation. It NEEDS a good HOME. Can you help find one for this lonely machine? Reagrds Ron Tribble yehudi(a)pipeline.com

26 years, 2 months

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What Y2K glitch?

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

At 09:07 01-01-2000 -0800, you wrote: >D'ya mean that it's now safe to come out of the fallout shelter? Well, nothing fell out so I assume it's OK. ;-) >Watch. The news media will tell you that THEY SAVED you, by all of their >hysterical warnings. Oh, it already started. Someone on Prezzy Clinton's staff already started huffing and puffing about how we won't know the "full impact" of the problem until the end of January. I wager 4,000 Quatloos that, when that point comes, they'll claim they won't know the "full impact" for at least another month. And then another, and another, and... well, you get the idea. Oh, and the MicroVAXen and Sun boxes here, the oldest of which was designed and built in 1990, rolled right over to 2000 without a single protest. Lord above, what a non-event... too bad that people chose to focus their energies towards a bunch of hype instead of something worthwhile, like, say, a manned mission to Mars. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

26 years, 3 months

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What Y2K glitch?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Well, thatsurprises me! I've got NT3.51, NT4,Win98, and Win 95 in several boxes some dating back a few years, and not a one had the wrong date or any other apparent ill efects to show for the rollover. My Netware server was off by 11 months, but that was due to a typo last August. That was the last time I rebooted more than one of my boxes. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter <bpechter(a)monmouth.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, January 01, 2000 2:29 PM Subject: Re: What Y2K glitch? On Sat, 01 Jan 2000, Bruce Lane wrote: > Oh, and the MicroVAXen and Sun boxes here, the oldest of which was > designed and built in 1990, rolled right over to 2000 without a single > protest. > > Lord above, what a non-event... too bad that people chose to focus their > energies towards a bunch of hype instead of something worthwhile, like, > say, a manned mission to Mars. Yup... I went nuts patching the blasted SunOS 4.1.x boxes (because management required "Certification" on all hardware and software. The problems were stuff like troff macro packages that didn't get date/time headers right. Real critical stuff, eh. Well, I wish I could've stayed with the old stuff. The Suns worked. The biggest problem I had was the time I spent patching Windows boxes. It took 5 times the overtime patching the Win95/98/NT stuff than any of the Sun stuff. The Suns were easy. Apply patch to one Sun of each architecture under SunOS 4.1.4, make tar patch. Untar over machine to install new kernel and all the patches. The PC's were much worse. Bill ----------------------------------------------------------------- bpechter@.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org|pechter@pechter.bsdonline. org Three things never anger: First, the one who runs your DEC, Theone who does Field Service and the one who signs your check.

26 years, 3 months

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What Y2K glitch?

by kyrrin＠bluefeathertech.com

We have at least five PeeCees active here at any one time. Of those five, only ONE got confused about the date rollover. It was a 1994-vintage 486 system running DOS 6.22. I use it as one of my testbed systems. EVERY other system, including my old 486-based server, which any industry "expert" would happily sneer at as "obsolete," handled the flip-over without so much as an electronic hiccup. Ah, me... all that hype, and the only glitches I've heard of this evening were only minor annoyances (like Auckland's airport web page reporting flight dates of 1900). Methinks we're going to hear about an awful lot of annoyed paranoid people and survivalists over the next couple weeks. Happy New Year, gang! Keep the peace(es). ;-) -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77 "Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."

26 years, 3 months

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What Y2K glitch?

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

--- Geoff Roberts <geoffrob(a)stmarks.pp.catholic.edu.au> wrote: > A lot of people made a lot of money out of Y2K paranoia. Some of them may > have upset people to deal with shortly. So be it. Locally, certain store policies made the news: no returns on generators at the farmer's supply stores (Quality Farm and Fleet, for those in the U.S. who have heard of them). The same store chain was also asking city residents not to buy generators because there weren't enough to go around for their usual rural customers who buy them from time to time, anyway, Y2K-notwithstanding. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com

26 years, 3 months

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Happy 0-|99 to all!!!

by healyzh＠aracnet.com

Happy 0-|99 to all!!! I might be working, but I'm working from home, so just watched my PDP-11/73 roll over about 7 minutes ago, which means the first Y2K bug I've seen is it's date function :^( Zane | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Adminstrator | | healyzh(a)aracnet.com (primary) | Linux Enthusiast | | healyzh(a)holonet.net (alternate) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |

26 years, 3 months

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Emulex TC12 docs?

by DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com

Need switch settings for it. Mine's acting funny and I think the switches got played with (The SCSI controller works fine, and the TC doesn't, swapping slots doesn't help, only other things in the backplane are two DZ11s.) It's a Emulex TC12 UNIBUS tape controller, with a 1600/3200 BPI Pertec 9-track drive on it. Drive is known good. I/O with the drive loses about half the time. (It just hangs RT-11 forever.) -------

26 years, 3 months

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how many heads, Cylinders on a Quantum 540?

by edick＠idcomm.com

Yes, Don, that's what I've thought up to now as it agrees with my literature, but if Allison says she has a 1005 that works with an ST506 drive, ... well ... she's got what she's got. I have one setup with a 1007V-SE and another with a 1007-WA2. The former is a bit fancier but mainly there's a performance difference directly attributable to the on-board hardware. Happy New Year! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Don Maslin <donm(a)cts.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, December 31, 1999 3:33 PM Subject: Re: how many heads, Cylinders on a Quantum 540? > > >On Fri, 31 Dec 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> GAWD! That's really a confusing mess! I always thought WD got its >> board-level products badly mixed up number-wise, but this is beyond what I'd >> feared. >> >> I have two flavors of 1007, which are definitely ESDI, only one 1006, though >> it's the MFM version, no EPROM, but I did at one time have a 1005 which was >> definitely for ESDI and a 1006 which had the RLL chips (5xxx-series) and >> turned the MFM drive into an RLL easily enough. > >Reviewing the listing from TheRef, I find that the HDCs divide like >this: 1001, 1002, 1003, 1004, and 1006 are all ST412 interface > 1005, 1007, and 1009 are all ESDI interface. > >Within the ST412 grouping are both MFM and RLL controllers. There is >only one version of the 1005, but multiple versions of the 1007 and >1009. > >Note that I delimited the above to HDCs to avoid addressing the 1002-FOX >FDC! > > - don > >> ...and I thought the bridge controller boards were badly numbered! >> >> Dick >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> >> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >> <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >> Date: Friday, December 31, 1999 10:07 AM >> Subject: Re: how many heads, Cylinders on a Quantum 540? >> >> >> ><No offense, Allison, but the 1007 and 1005 controllers won't work with tha >> ><drive at all, as both 1005 and 1007 are ESDI controllers. You may be >> ><thinking of the 1006's which come in both MFM and RLL. The 1006 WITH an >> ><EPROM on it is the RLL version, while the MFM version uses the >> ><motherboard-resident BIOS to handle the HDD. >> > >> >I could be off on the 1007 though I have NO edsi drives and am using 1005 >> >and WD1007 (least that what the markings are) and both are PC using D540s. >> >Also my 1006 was used with them in the current system before I went IDE. >> >Note we may be talking across part numbers as I have three 1005s that >> >are each decidedly different from each other yet, the primary part of the >> >part number is WD1005! I also have 4 flavors of 1002, three differnt >> >lengths, one surface mount! Of all the PC controllers from WDC I have >> >about ten, starting with the 1002 also the 1003, 1005, 1006 and 1007. >> >The only EDSI controller I have is a non WD design and I don't ahve drives >> >for that. >> > >> ><ESDI is a high-level interface not at all like the "ultra-dumb" >> ><ST-506/ST-412 interface this drive claims to have, though it does use >> cable >> ><of similar configuration, hence has similar connectors. >> > >> >Ah, I do know the difference. >> > >> ><This drive is commonly used with MFM, though its speed control, etc, is >> ><capable of RLL densities as are most "MFM" drives. >> > >> >I've found it to be more successful than others though RD53s (micropolus >> >1325s 71mb) were really nice at 100mb RLL and pretty reliable till they got >> >old. >> > >> >Allison >> > >> >> >

26 years, 3 months

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how many heads, Cylinders on a Quantum 540?

by edick＠idcomm.com

GAWD! That's really a confusing mess! I always thought WD got its board-level products badly mixed up number-wise, but this is beyond what I'd feared. I have two flavors of 1007, which are definitely ESDI, only one 1006, though it's the MFM version, no EPROM, but I did at one time have a 1005 which was definitely for ESDI and a 1006 which had the RLL chips (5xxx-series) and turned the MFM drive into an RLL easily enough. ...and I thought the bridge controller boards were badly numbered! Dick -----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, December 31, 1999 10:07 AM Subject: Re: how many heads, Cylinders on a Quantum 540? ><No offense, Allison, but the 1007 and 1005 controllers won't work with tha ><drive at all, as both 1005 and 1007 are ESDI controllers. You may be ><thinking of the 1006's which come in both MFM and RLL. The 1006 WITH an ><EPROM on it is the RLL version, while the MFM version uses the ><motherboard-resident BIOS to handle the HDD. > >I could be off on the 1007 though I have NO edsi drives and am using 1005 >and WD1007 (least that what the markings are) and both are PC using D540s. >Also my 1006 was used with them in the current system before I went IDE. >Note we may be talking across part numbers as I have three 1005s that >are each decidedly different from each other yet, the primary part of the >part number is WD1005! I also have 4 flavors of 1002, three differnt >lengths, one surface mount! Of all the PC controllers from WDC I have >about ten, starting with the 1002 also the 1003, 1005, 1006 and 1007. >The only EDSI controller I have is a non WD design and I don't ahve drives >for that. > ><ESDI is a high-level interface not at all like the "ultra-dumb" ><ST-506/ST-412 interface this drive claims to have, though it does use cable ><of similar configuration, hence has similar connectors. > >Ah, I do know the difference. > ><This drive is commonly used with MFM, though its speed control, etc, is ><capable of RLL densities as are most "MFM" drives. > >I've found it to be more successful than others though RD53s (micropolus >1325s 71mb) were really nice at 100mb RLL and pretty reliable till they got >old. > >Allison >

26 years, 3 months

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New aquisition: big iron goodies

by ethan_dicks＠yahoo.com

A buddy of mine came through today with some stuff he'd been talking about for months. In exchange for a place-mat-sized fan-folded UNIX "pocket guide" >from 1984, he gave me a 360 reference card (IBM p/n X20-1703-4) and another artifact that I'd only ever _heard_ of before - a data cell (i.e., a noodle >from an IBM noodle picker/stuffer). It's much larger than I anticipated - over 2" x 12". Between the reference card and the textbook I have (Saxon, Englander and Englander, "System 360 Programming, A Self-Instructional Manual", Prentice- Hall, Inc, 1968) I'm almost ready to try out that 360 emulator. -ethan ===== Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February. Please send all replies to erd(a)iname.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com

26 years, 3 months

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8089 was Re: Hyperion Passport, Apricot, Convergent Technologies workSlate,

by edick＠idcomm.com

Quite true, Hans. The Intel effort to push the industry ahead fell with this chipset fell flat because software vendors were not willing to re-architect their existing constructs in order to capitalize on the advantages a hierarchical structure for the I/O subsystem would provide. Software simply never evolved to the point at which it fully exploited the hardware. The degeneration of the initial architecture into what it now is rather than the more highly abstracted (and more highly evolved) construct that was presented by the hardware was caused by software vendors' inability to organize themselves around a unified construct. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, December 31, 1999 7:48 AM Subject: Re: 8089 was Re: Hyperion Passport, Apricot, Convergent Technologies workSlate, >> >a strange machine -- one of the few MS-DOS boxes to use an 8089 I/O >> >coprocessor (which I why I got interested in it -- nice chip). > >> Hi Tony, I have an 8089 in a CPM machine but I haven't been able to find >> out much about that chip. What can you tell me about it? > >The 8089 is the supposed I/O Processor for 8086/88 systems. >Like the 8087 it can be used in an 8 or 16 bit bus system. > >Basicly Intel did go for a structure like a /370 alike mainframe. >A CPU (8086 or 8088), an IOC (8089) and a math extension to the >CPU (FPU, 8087). Due the nature of the 86 Bus the 8087 did become >a bit more independant than a /370 math extension. Basicly the >8086 is designed as ordinary CPU, while the 8089 is optimized for >I/O - you may call it a super DMA chip, but thats like calling >a versitale VW Bus a shoping cart. From a system softwares view >point you may assign the low level I/O drivers to be run on the >8089, while the 8086 executes the high level functions. For a >a Disk drive this may give you an SCSI like interface between >these components - the 8086 supports a control block with (logical) >drive ID, and block number, while the 8089 translates this to >controller address, drive number and head/track/sector number >to programm the FD chips and then initiate the DMA transfer. > >For a serial line, this may include low level block drivers >for packing/unpacking and CRC and block repeat to handle the >complete transmission of a given data (chunk). > >Especialy in a multi tasking environment this gives an enormus >boost in available processing power. Not to mention the simplified >OS design. As a standard IOC, the 89 also overcomes the driver >problems that you get if every I/O has his own, different >'intelligent' controller. > >Well, I guess there may have been some applications, but I doubt >if this has ever used the full potential of the 86/89 combination. >The design did realy borrow a lot of good mainframe ideas. Just to >early ? > >Gruss >H. > > >-- >Der Kopf ist auch nur ein Auswuchs wie der kleine Zeh. >H.Achternbusch

26 years, 3 months

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Question for you 'big iron' collectors

by wilson＠dbit.dbit.com

>From: "Paul Braun" <nerdware(a)laidbak.com> >It just fascinates me that there are so many of you who run these >beasts and I'd just like to know why. It's common for people to laugh at the old minis, but the thing is, back when they first came out everyone thought they were *wicked* cool. And what's changed? Unless you've gotten seriously behind on maintenance, they haven't gotten any worse just because the rest of the computing world has moved ahead (sort of). They're as great as they ever were. Also, everything that's been done over the last 30 years will all be seen as totally obsolete 10 years from now, including the seemingly flashy stuff that's being done right now. The idea of immediately adopting every steaming pile of new software laid by Bill Gates, just to keep up, doesn't appeal to a lot of people. So if you're going to pick something to stick with for as long as possible, why not pick the last system that you were actually *glad* to use? Then there's the issue of forward compatibility. 5 years ago MS-DOS was still pretty entrenched, but now it's as if it never existed. There are supposed DOS compatibility boxes in the newer OSes but they never seem to be able to run the one program you really care about. I'm sure this will repeat itself with native Windows etc. applications, and UNIX has always been a moving target, so if you write your software for one of those systems you'll probably have to revisit it (and maybe totally rewrite it) every couple of years for the rest of your life. Even if the OSes don't grow huge incompatibilities (which they will), the C language itself is long overdue for fading away. And the real trouble starts when your favorite language falls out of favor -- try to find an Algol compiler nowadays! But, I assure you that 15 years from now I'll still have some way to run all of my RT-11 MACRO-11 code unchanged. Just like it's already possible to run all my stuff from 15 years ago unchanged. New PDP-11 clone CPUs are still coming out even now (which means they'll depreciate to hobbyist price levels in a few years), and of course emulators make your code live even longer (but maybe I'm biased!). The PDP-11 environment is a lot better suited to being emulated than PCs are, so even though there might be a way to keep current versions of Windows awake on future non-80x86 CPUs, I still prefer to write PDP-11 code when it's something I want to bring with me onto future machines. John Wilson D Bit

26 years, 3 months

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11/44: CSRs and Vectors

by jpl15＠netcom.com

I am at the plateau of learning how to configure modules for inclusion into a Unibus PDP11/44 system... and I'm having trouble getting off the dime understanding the algoithms involved. I think I've a pretty good handle on how the grant chain works, and of course I think I understand the concept of hardware addressing and interrupt hierarchies and servicing. I just am having trouble applying my limited knowledge to specific DEC hardware. Por ejemplo: I dredged the M8256/RX211 out of my 11/34, with the object of hanging an RX02 on the 11/44. I have a DD11-CK (four slot) backplane with one slot (4) available. I pulled the grant card, cut the NPR jumper, and installed the M8256 in the slot. I checked everything out electromechanically, all seems good: cables in the right way up, RX02 on and running, all ok. On boot, the system came up normally until I typed $dir DY0: and there was a mighty explosion, bits bytes and words rained down on me and I blew the machine back into ODT. Thence, it refused to boot again, returning me to the >>> every time, even after I powered it down and back up again. [ >>> b db0 ] I then removed the M8256, restored the jumper and grant card, and all is now well. (....Whhheeewwww...!!!!) I had visions of irreparable damage and weeks of work and severe depression... So I assume that the various settings on the RX211 conflict with the rest of the system. Having the documentation [PDP-11/44 System User's Guide and the RX02 Floppy Disk System User's Guide] what process must I accomplish to properly configure the Module so it 'plays well with others'? A Very Happy New Year to those whose Year is imanently New; and to everyone else anyway, on the grounds that we all like good wishes. Cheers John

26 years, 3 months

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Reply to the "Big Iron" collectors -- Thanks!

by nerdware＠laidbak.com

OK, I have been thoroughly chastised for my choice of "big iron" to describe the minis. I know better, and this is proof that one shouldn't post stuff real late at night. I appreciate all the discussion. By no means did I mean to imply that old equals obsolete -- I still use a 20-something HP-35 calculator that does the basic 4 fns plus scientific stuff just as well as today's little marvels, plus it has the added advantages of being built like a tank and using RPN. I've used RPN since I was in high school in the mid-70's and learned early on that it is great for preventing people from borrowing your calculator. All they have to do is ask "where's the 'equals' key?" and when you reply "there isn't one", they stare at you funny and go away. I'm surprised that most of you do use them for day-to-day tasks. I guess in my mind I just envisioned most minis in business settings running business apps -- my exposure to the larger side of computing has been somewhat limited. The most actual usage I got was programming FORTRAN IV on a DECWriter connected to the HP3000 at school. I guess it boils down to "if you know how to run it, and it does what you need, then it's the right machine for the job" I shouldn't be that surprised, I guess, because that's usually the advice I give people who ask me about dumping a boatload of cash because the folks at Intel have promised them that the latest whiz- bang tricked-out PIII box will dance and sing, do the dishes, and make their 28.8 dialup connection into a screaming multimedia wonderland. I usually ask, "does your current pc do what you need it to?" to which the reply is almost always, "Yes." Then I tell them to save their money and get something better when the current box dies. Or I tell them to get a Mac. But that's a different thread for a different group. I would like to have a PDP at some point and learn how to use it, but the pc collection is currently pushing the limits of marital tolerance, and then I and my computers would have to find a new place to sleep........... We now return you to the list, already in progress. Paul Braun NerdWare -- The History of the PC and the Nerds who brought it to you. nerdware(a)laidbak.com www.laidbak.com/nerdware

26 years, 3 months

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Hyperion Passport, Apricot, Convergent Technologies workSlate, Amdek, HELP!

by Maddog1331＠aol.com

Hey all...I am new to this classic computer collecting, but I have been buying and reselling systems for a few months now. Anyway, I recently acquired a Hyperion Passport (or is it a Passport Hyperion?), an Apricot, a workSlate, and some drives, and other stuff (diskettes, or things) that say Amdek on them. I am just looking on any information I can find on these! I am attempting to put a value on them, and am trying to decide which to keep, if any....I am running out of room it seems :-) Any help would be appreciated! Sincerely, Mark Saarinen

26 years, 3 months

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