test-drb April 1999

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

170 participants
1190 discussions

by max82＠surfree.com

Hi, I still haven't built a chording keyboard, but I'd like to know, what are its advantages/disadvantages over a regular one? I realize the general differences, what I'm looking for is 'it would be great for typing because.., it would be awful for data entry because....' --Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com) http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is Power

25 years, 3 months

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Upon the date 02:12 AM 4/22/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail said something like: >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Christian Fandt wrote: > -- snip -- >> To try to solve that First Microcomputer question, a set of attributes must >> first be set just like the set was to determine the 1st PC as shown in the >> above URL. Methinks that will be a bit troublesome as nobody seemed to >> agree on that during the last go-around of discussing the 1st Microcomputer >> here awhile back. > >Well, first what? First computer built around a microprocessor? That Yes, 'first what?' That's pretty much my point in writing that paragraph above because there's no apparently clear concensus on the set of attributes. >would probably be Intel's development machines. Or should it include an Intel's devel machines would be a logical choice if one holds to the first microcomputer machine in question using a microprocessor. After all, since Intel is the "inventor" of the uP and the Busicom calculator product was probably not "programmable", then the first ones could have been from Intel. However, your F14 CADC computer choice below holds the most water when considering uP-based machines. Therefore, as a result of recently disclosed confidential information as many of us had already seen months ago on the microcomputerhistory.com site, the MP944 chipset-based computer should indeed be considered the first microcomputer. Ultimately, an etymology of the word 'microcomputer' should be undertaken with respect to its' being attached to a *particular* machine, whether uP-based or not, in order to answer the question clearly. I suggest we start there. What does the OED say? >integrated CRT and keyboard? Or did it just have to have a serial >interface for a terminal? Or are lights and switches good enough for >output and input? > >Arguing firsts is mostly pointless because people have a problem agreeing >on the definition. I vote for the F14 CADC computer, since it was built >around what could be considered a "microprocessor" and was in production >and flying in the F14 in 1970. > >http://www.microcomputerhistory.com Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa

25 years, 3 months

The Paxton auction: any interest in rescues

by Innfogra＠aol.com

Yes, the dual 5 1/4" Andromeda drive has a single 34 pin connector in the back. What might it be worth to you? Paxton

25 years, 3 months

How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?

by clintw＠colorado.cirrus.com

> From allisonp(a)world.std.com Wed Apr 21 17:10:05 1999 > Reply-To: classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu > Sender: CLASSICCMP-owner(a)u.washington.edu > Precedence: bulk > From: allisonp(a)world.std.com (Allison J Parent) > To: "Discussion re-collecting of classic computers" <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> > Subject: Re: How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8? > X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.1 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > Content-Length: 367 > X-Lines: 15 > > <How long does core stay magnetized without power? > > Years. > > <How many bytes of battery-backed RAM are there in a typical PC? > > Not a lot usually something in the 32-128byte range, maybe more. > > <Haven't there been contemporary memory devices that use nano-scale > <cores, to eliminate the battery needs and radiation sensitivity of RAM? > > Not that I'm aware of. > > Allison > > Actually, there are a few companys making FRAMs. Essentially they use a small amount of magnetic material to provide non-volatile storage. They may even be core shaped :) clint

25 years, 3 months

Wang word proc Free in SoCal

by jpl15＠netcom.com

I have been offered a largish Wang word processor system... a washing-machine size CPU and two slightly smaller 8" floppy units, several terminals and two printers... no doc or software at this time. I will get model numbers etc. when I actually get to spend some time poking around the units. My question before I actually commit to saving this from the dumpster is: anybody want it??? I sure don't... They're *big* and heavy, so shipping is definately a factor, unless you want to arrange to pick it up, in which case there is a loading dock available. Cheers John PS: TRW Saturday.....

25 years, 3 months

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Then the Cromemco Z-2 series was designed specifically for rack mount >applications... (I have an example of that one in my collection - >currently in a rack) B^} The catalogs usually pictured the Z-2 in a nice wooden office cabinet - often an integral part of a desk. In the field, certainly, open metal racks make much more sense :-). -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

25 years, 3 months

z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

That 8073 from National is in my inventory, though I don't recall its being an SC/MP. It's probably something, though, and I somehow doubt it's an 8048-series component. Dick -----Original Message----- From: KFergason(a)aol.com <KFergason(a)aol.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 9:59 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >In a message dated 4/21/99 6:09:47 PM Central Daylight Time, >allisonp(a)world.std.com writes: > >> <Name a non-homebrew SC/MP based computer. >> <(note, I believe one existed, but memory is fuzzy till i get home to >> <the old magazines) >> >> Not including the three sold by National Semi or the ones that used the >> 8073 SC/MP with a internal rom tiny basic(also sold be national)??? >> >> Allison >> > >Yes, not including any by NS. I know they produced boards, >just like most manufacturers did. > >DigiKey had something in their catalogs, but its been so long, I >don't remember exactly what it was. (maybe just reselling the NS stuff?) > >Kelly > >

25 years, 3 months

homemade computer for fun and experience...

by edick＠idcomm.com

I'm going to have to take an opposing position once again. I'd never have given up on terminals, having invested hundreds of kilobucks in them over time. My recollection, biased, I'm sure, by the ten years of trouble-free, experience, thanks to being terminal-free is that they were more trouble than I ever expected. Since I stopped using terminals, I've not once been unable to use a software package because I didn't have the right terminal. Whether it's VMS or WORDSTAR, it is a royal pain if the hardware I've got won't work. Terminals are different. They behave differently, given various commands. Yes, ANSI terminals are more or less compatible, but they won't work with the applications I used to use under CP/M at all. I have never had a desire for DEC hardware, mainly because of my distaste (and disdain) for their application of technology, and of course for their overemphasis on the bottom line, meaning THEIR bottom line. If you read the fine print, their sales documents specifically deny that they claim their products work. argghhh! I'm GLAD they're gone. THEY were the reason I had to have terminals around as long as I did. A keyboard interface is quite straightforward. A video display is not. I agree that there's reason why so many computers used terminals, but now that we don't have to do that, I propose that we not limit ourselves to what little a terminal can do. See . . . there are reasons NOT to use a terminal. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Monday, April 05, 1999 3:01 PM Subject: Re: homemade computer for fun and experience... >> >> While I agree fundamentally in that you really don't have to have graphic >> output capabilities, to wit, I did without it for over 30 years of computer >> use, I don't believe there's any reason to favor the terimnal over the >> direct-mapped monochrome video display. It's nominally a 2000 character > >A few reasons. It's a lot easier to add a serial port than add a video >display/keyboard system (I've done both, many times). And Tim is right : >Serial terminals are probably a lot more universal than whatever flavour >of monitor that you pick. > >> as for what you find difficult to get fixed . . . (a) who cares about fixing >> a serial card? Another costs $3. (b) pre-vga monochrome cards and monitors > >I care. Particularly when I need the darn thing over a weekend, it's >failed on Saturday night, and I have a junk box full of chips, but no >spare boards... I also care about keeping the landfills empty. > >And I specificially mentioned the IBM Async card for a reason. It has a >current loop I/O facility. AFAIK none of the cheap clones - the ones >you'll get for $3 - have this facility. Adding it wouldn't be hard given >a schematic and a well-stocked junk box, but what's the point? By the >time you've traced out the schematic and made the mods you might as well >have fixed the original card. > >Suffice it to say that I have full schematics of this PC and intend to >keep on fixing it properly... > >> abound at the thrift stores. Keyboards do as well. (c) so long as hard disk >> drives of the ST506 variety still abound in the thrift stores, the > >Those drives are getting fairly hard to find in the UK :-( > >> controllers will too. I passed on an 'AT box a week ago, which had a VGA >> card, a 200+ MB eide 3.5" 1/3-height hard disk, and much of the usual stuff > >You're missing the point. If I have my data on an ST506 drive and the >controller fails, the last thing I need is an EIDE drive, however big it >is. I need a controller, or the chips to fix my existing controller. I >want to get my data back. > >> I figure, if I can't replace it with something similar, then I'll replace it >> with something more current. > >Maybe... You might find you're replacing an awful lot of the machine, >though... ISA is on the way out, remember.. > >Personally, I'll stick to machines that I can maintain properly (no board >swapping!). And _I_'ll decide when I want to upgrade. > >-tony >

25 years, 3 months

SUN tape drive was RE: Sun 1 question

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

Aaron, Got it open. It has a Exabyte EXB-8505 drive in it. Don't know what I'll use it for. I haven't even been able to get my SUN IPC to boot yet. Thanks for the help. Joe At 08:39 PM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >Hi Joe, > >Simple, once you know the trick. You have to push in hidden tabs through >the holes in the side of the case. Stick a straightened paper-clip in the >third hole from the back, second row down and lift the case off from the >rear... > >BTW, if for some reason you need a replacement drive for it, let me know >(I've got a couple doing dust-collection duty somewhere). > >Cheers, > >Aaron > > >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: > >> Aaron, >> >> OK now how the hell do I get it out to find out what's in there? >> >> Joe >> >> At 01:27 PM 4/21/99 -0700, you wrote: >> >The 411 is just the box. Mine has an Archive Viper QIC-150 in it that I >> >use with an Emulex MT-02 controller. You'll have to take a look inside to >> >see what you've got in there. Under SunOS, you should be able to access >> >this as device st[devnum]. Check the man page for "st" for some more info. >> > >> >Aaron >> > >> >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Joe wrote: >> > >> >> I just picked up a SUN model 411 tape drive PN 595-1711-03. I can't find it >> >> in the SUN FAQ , does anyone have any info on it? >> >> >> >> Joe >> >> >> > >> > >> > >

25 years, 3 months

VME? related to College search.

by edick＠idcomm.com

I'm quite certain that VME predates the 1983 date you've specified. I made/sold a wirewrap card for VME back in the early portion of 1982 at which time I was a latecomer to the VME Bus Manufacturers' Group. Mostek and Motorola both had complete systems available for 68K development and such. Not much effort had been put into making it useful for anything else, but FORCE Computers, apparently a German company with outlets here in the US, had a complete set of boards for nearly any common purpose and some kind of OS available. at that time. BICC-Vero made cardcages, backplanes, and wire-wrap boards for the VME of the time, and several inependent card makers were making the little "single-connector" cpu and interface boards for embedded applications in 1982. This happened to be at the same time as my last divorce, so I have realatively good recall due to association with other events of the time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt <cfandt(a)netsync.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 7:18 AM Subject: Re: VME? related to College search. >Upon the date 12:07 AM 4/22/99 -0400, jpero(a)cgocable.net said something like: >>What's about this VME and programming on that 68000 type? > >If I understand your question, the VMEbus is a 32-bit microcomputer bus >which is used primarily in industrial computers. Certain Sun products also >used it but I defere to those experts for further Sun comment. > >VMEbus was invented by John Black and others at Motorola in 1983. Came from >the now-obsolete VersaModule bus structure Moto had since I think the >mid-70's. Basic form factor was the Eurocard with DIN 46xxx connector >(can't recall DIN number at moment). Hence, VMEbus = VersaModule Eurocard >bus. Quickly became a standardized bus protocol worldwide. > >Moto, Mostek and Philips were earliest suppliers of hardware. Others >followed. Still somewhat popular and well supported today. The 68k >processor family was the most used uP. However, Intel uP's, Moto's 88000 >RISC uP, some Transputer devices and other uP's were also used in VMEbus >module designs. > >A fairly recent extension of the VMEbus protocol, VME64, extends the bus to >64 bits. The physics community is a major user of VME64 nowadays. > >> >>Don't anyone have graphics of VME stuff like cages, cards, VME > >Start by looking at this URL from eg3 which has a good list of VMEbus >resources: http://www.eg3.com/indc/indcxvme.htm. > >VITA - The VMEBus International Trade Association, has a URL: >http://www.vita.com/ . You could find more info and links there. > >>equipments? And how common is this out in that canadian field? > >Should be as common as it was in the States as it was found usually in >embedded industrial control and data collection systems in factories, etc. >Of course, the PeeCee stuff replaced some installations if the user wanted >to move to or start his/her design using the Intel processor or go for a >design 'on the cheap and dirty' as VMEbus products and s/w could be a bit >pricey. Multibus I and II and, to a smaller extent, STDbus and G64 were >competition to VMEbus. > >> >>I see that in my college electronic engineering technology course >>info by Algonquin College in canada within Ottawa, Ontario. >> >>Other college St. Lawerence College offers same type of course >>but uses x86 and pc type circuits in their courses which in my >>opinion bit shortsighted and lacks "commerical" areas compared to >>Algonquin's. > >I agree. Algonquin is fine with including VMEbus and other industrial >busses in their course structure. PeeCee could be included but for critical >real time apps it should be stated that VMEbus and its board products and >OS's are one the several non-PeeCee systems which really shine. > >> >>Keep your thoughts freely flowing! > >Yeah, well the on topic ones are fine from us, but . . . ;) > >Regards, Chris >-- -- >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net >Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa

25 years, 3 months

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test-drb April 1999