please see imbedded comments below.
regards,
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 4:49 PM
Subject: Re: Kits vs ready-made (was RE: Rebirth of IMSAI)
>> The kit, of course, has to be properly documented. In today's ready-made
>> environment, little documentation accompanies a product, though even
that's
>> not often used. Today, the kit would be offered not so people can enjoy
>
>The reason why the documentation is 'seldom used' is that it's useless.
>Some of the manuals I've seen for modern computer products would insult
>anybody with more than 2 working braincells...
>
You are on the money there! There's so much simplistic fluff, yet no meat.
>
>> You're certainly right about the cost of documentation. That's why it's
>> hard to recommend LINUX and some of the rather excellent pieces of
software
>> work which have been done in conjunction with it. The documentation is
>> generally quite poor, and always several generations out of date.
>
>Eh? I'd much rather do something obscure with Linux given a standard
>distribution and _any_ linux book (of _your_ choice if you like) than do
>something simpler with, say, Windows given _every_ published book and SDK.
>
I've never been a promoter of heavily commercialized software, nor have I
believed in the things the MS is doing with its software, e.g. the flight
simulator built into EXCEL, but I've had VERY little trouble with '95. I've
had to read very little documentation about the OS. Likewise, NT, though
you can leave out the "VERY" with respect to it. '95 has always worked
exactly as I expected and although there are a few things I can't explain
about it, THIS very machine on which I normally do my communications, has
been up continuously since June of '95 when I loaded a BETA on it and I've
continuously updated it to where it's running OSR2 dated about a year ago,
and the only times it's been down habe been due to hardware upgrades or
hardware faults.
At the POP, there are three LINUX boxes running satisfactorily for over a
year, as terminal server, among other things, and one really can't complain.
I just complained because of the documentation maze, which is certainly in
ample evidence.
>
That would be really nice if there were a genuinely "standard" distribution.
Perhaps the current trend toward increased commercialization will lead to
that. I've never claimed to be a software expert, though I've been coding
for a living, on and off, since about 1965. I've never managed to get even
one instant of useful work for myself out of LINUX, even though I've gone
through numerous releases and several distributions. The documents are
almost always so far out of sync as to be useless and are NEVER sufficiently
correct to instill confidence in one unfamiliar with its inards. I suppose
one who knows exactly what he's looking for will find it, but as a foreigner
to LINUX, I didn't find the dozens of GBytes of doc files, often
conflicting, to be much help.
Example: Simple tasks like installing LINUX on an ESDI drive larger than
what the BIOS supports are not supported by any written documents, though
the writing about other drive types (not SCSI) may shed light on it, though
the doc's about EIDE are also conflicting. These are made hopelessly
complicated by the various often self-contradictory attempts at describing
what's to be done. I finally gave up on the half-dozen or so conflicting
write-ups I had and worked the details out with a fellow in Germany who,
though his English was limited, as is my German-"computerese," managed to
convince me that it was really quite straightforward.
My goal, however, was to use a LINUX box rather than an NT box in order to
provide a TCP/IP gateway to share the modem, replace my NETWARE server, and
process FAX traffic over the LAN as well. Though it claimed (announced) to
have loaded all the appropriate modules, it didn't show any signs of doing
what I wanted. Now, there was no indication that it wouldn't. . .
>
>Linux documentation, at least the stuff I've worked with is an order of
>magnitude better than that of most other OS's (although some DEC docs
>kits are even better). For one thing, Linux documentation is pretty
>complete (it doesn't normally miss out stuff that might 'confuse the
>user'). And if you have problems, you cd /usr/src/linux and dig around :-)
>
Yes, you can and must do that, but it's like having a system of 25 equations
in 12 unknowns. The solution is in there somewhere, but which one?
>
>And yes, I do consider source code to be possible documentation for a
>piece of software, just as I consider a schematic to be possible
>documentation for a piece of hardware.
It's true that source code SHOULD be part of the documentation. In too many
cases it's ALL the documentation, and though the code was modified, the
comments weren't kept in sync. That's where it's a real pain when they
leave out key words like NOT.
>
>-tony
>
Hi all,
Because i feel so lonely here in Denver, i got the idea of collecting a
list of the listmembers. I simply want to see, in what areas you can meet
people an what they collecting.
I think a list with only a zip code, name, which computer/other stuff you
collect should do it.
What do you think ?
cheers,
emanuel
The Timonium Hamfest had an excellent turnout. Tailgating spots were
sold out. I spent half the day there, purchasing the following equipment:
2 Bell & Howell Apple II+'s. Both are in rather poor condition, the one
even has an ordinairy II+ keyboard and no power supply. I'm thinking
about putting a IIgs mb in it for a "Stealth GS". The other is missing
the '0' key. Anybody have one they'd like to part with?
6 NEC Ultralite Notebooks. Does anybody know what the power adapter for
these is like? They have interesting connectors. I'll probably just
hook the power up to the battery connectors. Two of the notebooks are
labeled "lights up, but won't boot." If anybody wants one of these most
likely borken units before I start to fool around with them, the price is
$10.
2 Compaq Portables. I'll sell one of them for $25, if anybody's
interested. I just need to test it first.
6 IBM PC Convertibles. Last summer I purchased about a dozen IBM PC
Convertible AC adapters at a hamfest for $1, knowing that some day I'd
come across a pile of Convertibles at a Hamfest, lacking power supplies.
Well wouldn't you know there was a stack of Convertibles at the Timonium
show - and not one of them had an AC adapter. If anybody's interested in
one of these, figure about $25.
IBM 5155
Compaq Portable III
Grid Gridlite
IBM 3127
Apple IIgs-style ADB keyboard - finally!
I know next to nothing about the following units, and I'm not sure if any
of them are ten years old. If somebody could give me some details on
them (espeically on the SparcServer 470), I'd appreciate it.
HP Apollo 400 ("upgraded to 439")
Sun SparcServer 470
Sun SparcStation IPX
Sun SparcStation ELC
DecServer 200/MC (I have two - any interest?)
Anbody know where I can get kb, mice, and monitors for these systems?
What I missed:
A Xycon computer, complete with two external 8" drives and keyboard.
Three all-in-one "business" computers, with 5.25" drives (I forget the
name, but they sure looked interesting)
A PDP-11/44.
Would the offending party identify himself? :-)
A vectored interrupt is one in which the interrupting device provides part
of the interrupt address. On the Z-80, this was done by the peripheral when
it saw the processor's interrupt acknowledge sequence and this meant that it
had to "see" both the M1 and the IORQ signals. It then reset its interrupt
logic when it saw the RETI instruction being fetched. As you may have
concluded, the Z-80 peripherals had to be as fast as the processor, and had
to have access to the necessary processor control signals.
I've never tried running a fast processor with slow peripherals and only
slow the processor down to the peripheral rate when M1 or IOREQ were active.
That might actually work so long as the peripheral had time to get its
bus-side task finished before its next transaction came along. That might
be a way to decouple the peripherals and processor. What I normally did is
run the I/O cycles slowly(4 MHz), insert a wait state in the M1 cycle, and
not use the Z-80 peripherals. That way I didn't have to present the M1 and
IOREQ signals to each peripheral.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Arfon Gryffydd <arfonrg(a)texas.net>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, April 01, 1999 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: Computer busses.... (& Z-380)
>At 02:22 PM 4/1/99 +1, you wrote:
>>
>>> I'm thinking a stripped down Z-bus (without the M1 signal and etc).
What
>>> else should be on a bus besides:
>>
>>Maybe take a look at the Z380 Bus - again a design to include
>>the best ideas of two worlds (like the Z80 has been).
>
>I've got 4 Z380s!! I want to put together a parallel processor machine
>with a cool front panel of LEDs and switches.... I don't care for the
>Z380's extra pins like the Low address pin, medium address pin and hig
>address pins.
>
>Do I really need to connect the M1 pin to anything? I mean why would I need
>to insert wait states if the memory is faster than the processor?
>
>Explain something to me... On a reception of an INT signal, the processor
>jumps to a set memory location and starts executing the code. Right? What
>is a vectored interrupt (it's been a LONG time since I wired uPs and I
>can't remember.)?
>----------------------------------------
> Tired of Micro$oft???
>
> Move up to a REAL OS...
>######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ #
>#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /##
>####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /###
>###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |####
>##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|####
># ######
> ("LINUX" for those of you
> without fixed-width fonts)
>----------------------------------------
>Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com
>
>Slackware Mailing List:
>http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html
Anyone have any idea what was/is the best bus design?
I'm thinking a stripped down Z-bus (without the M1 signal and etc). What
else should be on a bus besides:
ADDRESS
DATA
RD/WR
MEM/IO
BUS REQ
BUS ACK
INT
INT ACK
WAIT
HALT
RESET
CLOCK
----------------------------------------
Tired of Micro$oft???
Move up to a REAL OS...
######__ __ ____ __ __ _ __ #
#####/ / / / / __ | / / / / | |/ /##
####/ / / / / / / / / / / / | /###
###/ /__ / / / / / / / /_/ / / |####
##/____/ /_/ /_/ /_/ /_____/ /_/|_|####
# ######
("LINUX" for those of you
without fixed-width fonts)
----------------------------------------
Be a Slacker! http://www.slackware.com
Slackware Mailing List:
http://www.digitalslackers.net/linux/list.html
>Wow! Cool! Looks like you have a W9042 Extender Board which is
>specifically described as part of the FP11-A Option in my KK11-A tech
>manual and by association, one is also part of the KK11-A cache option.
>The manual mentions: "The W9042 Extender board Assy. is stored in the
>backplane and used for some maintenance operations."
Great...
>When you have to use an extender board to troubleshoot the adjacent M8265
>in a cache-option-only system, the W9042 plugs into the top connector on
>the M8268 Cache module and then the over-the-top connector plugs the two
>together. If troubleshooting the M8268, then the W9042 is plugged into
>the top conn of the 8265 and the o-t-t conn board connects both together.
>Neat!
Aha... that was the missing piece... having one of the boards on an
extender... it all makes sense now...
>Same for troubleshooting the systems with both cache and FP11 options
>except two W9042s are used.
I actually seem to remember another one somewhere in my collection,
I'll have to check someday to see if it is...
>I've got an extra set of them too plus a cache. No spare FP11 tho. Notice
>how heavy that FP11 is? Sure is a lot of 'stone' in all those AMD 2901s!
Yep... :-)
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
I've got several cartons of paper for the HP 9845 that I'd like to get rid
of (you pay shipping or pick up in Sacramento, CA area), as well as a HP
9876A thermal printer (heavy) and a few boxes of paper for it.
Russ Miller
mailto:russmiller@jps.net
Anyone interested? Just saw it and thought someone here might want it.
refer all questions to the original poster.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: FS: Sun SPARCclassic machines
Date: 1 Apr 1999 04:22:17 GMT
From: Jonathan Hall <jonhall(a)onyx.southwind.net>
Organization: SouthWind Internet Access, Inc.
Newsgroups:
misc.forsale.computers.workstation,misc.forsale.computers.net-hardware,misc.forsale.computers.other.misc
I have two Sun SPARCclassic "lunchbox-style" machines available. One
with
24mb RAM, one with 48mb RAM. Each has a 540mb SCSI hard drive, no
floppy
drive. I have a 19" greyscale monitor for each one, although shipping
is
a bit expensive on those (estimated $35 within the U.S.).
I'm asking $200 for the 24mb system and $250 for the 48mb system, or
make
an offer.
Each system has SunOS 5.5 installed, although I do not have passwords
for
either of them so a reinstallation will likely be required.
--
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Jonathan Hall * jonhall(a)future.goessel.ks.us * PGP public key available
http://www2.southwind.net/~jonhall * PGP Key ID: FE 00 FD 51
-= Running Debian Linux, kernel 2.0.30 =-
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Gentlemen,
I attempted to send Teledisk to you electronically tonight. Here's what
happened.
MARTIN: The mail bounced, using the address martinm(a)allwest.net with an
'Unknown User' error. Please provide a current address that will allow you
to receive a 100K+ file attach.
FRANK: Your system rejected the send because of the attach. Apparently,
reanimators.org has a 100K size limit. Can you provide an alternate address?
Thanks in advance.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905)
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own
human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
Please pardon this somewhat unusual use of the list, but I've gotten no
response whatsoever to E-mails.
PAGING TIM SHOPPA, JOE RIGDON, AND MIKE McMANUS... Will the three of you
please get in touch with me, via E-mail, ASAP, regarding your participation
in the Teledisk group buy?
I have sent repeated E-mails in your direction concerning the group buy. I
have not received so much as an acknowledgement to any of them.
If you are still interested in participating, please respond. If I do not
hear from you, I will assume that you are no longer interested, and I will
release your shares to those on the waiting list.
Thanks in advance.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
http://www.bluefeathertech.com
Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905)
"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own
human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
