test-drb April 1999

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

170 participants
1190 discussions

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>Since we've not seen any code for the 6502 yet, this may not be a problem, >but since Apple didn't exactly make it easy to exchange diskettes with other >systems, how would you propose to transfer a file, binary or otherwise >between systems? Though I haven't gotten into it, I figured on >cross-assembling from a PC to a PROM. That makes it easy for me, but how >will others do it? Easy: Run Kermit on both ends of the link. Kermit is available for everything from IBM mainframes to HP calculators, and has been the standard solution for decades for those of us who have to deal with diverse systems. See http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ for details. >It's enough of a problem transferring files from, say, a CP/M box running a >Z-80, since PC's don't read 8" disks. Huh? I've been doing this with 22Disk and/or Teledisk on PC-clones for over a decade. See http://www.sydex.com/ for details. See the comp.os.cpm FAQ for details about the cabling, and see my recent posts here or the discussions in comp.os.cpm about single-density FDC chips in PC clones if you need to read single-density formats on your PC-clone. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

25 years, 2 months

z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

That is really interesting! I was pretty disappointed when I got my first "kit" and found that, while it had provisions for a front-panel in its design, none was ever offered. I'm glad to know that there actually were such things. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, April 22, 1999 4:52 AM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing > >> My name is Wouter, I'm new here, and I never throw anything away. >> <everyone>Hi Wouter!</everyone> :-) > >Hi <howeverthisispronounced>, > >> >I saw one ad for an >> >SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was >> >not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor >> >was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now >> >of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I >> >ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. > >> http://ccii.dockside.co.za/~wrm/ccc.html > >CUTE! >H. > >-- >Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >HRK

25 years, 2 months

How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>> take about 90VDC to light up, but after they light up they'll stay on >> until the voltage drops below 60VDC or so. Only problems are: >> >> 1. The thresholds can vary greatly from unit to unit. >> >> 2. The thresholds will vary depending on ambient light, as well. >Use pulse coupleing so each runs at it's range. Also I do have a basic >design for a TTT machine using neons and 2d21 thyratrons. >I feel personally that would be good for demonstrating some for the other >forms of logic used. Absolutely - a lot about logic, especially pulse-coupled logic, is there to be learned. >Then again someone would want that interfaced to PCI too. Hmm - there's enough loopholes in the PCI spec already, maybe we can sneak 90V logic levels in? :-). Tim.

25 years, 2 months

Now OT: Re: Roman numerals

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.COM

>> > And no doubt some poor slave just finished chisling in all the closing >> > stock prices for the Roman Stock Exchange and some spelling weenie piped up >> > and said only, "You misspelled 18 on line 30 there." >> and said only, "You misspelled XVIII on line XXX there." >Now we know where his family went after there was no longer >a roman stock exchange :) OTOH, if we all used Roman Numerals for data storage still, there would be no Y2K problem due to "extra" digits! -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

25 years, 2 months

z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

I just never considered a computer a useful tool if you couldn't use it until you rebuilt it (hardware or software). That was the case with the early TI home computer boxes. They had totally unexploited potential for a long time. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Sellam Ismail <dastar(a)ncal.verio.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 2:36 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote: > >> For the longest time, the TMS 9900 didn't appear in anything one could >> consider a reasonable computer. There was one model I saw at a colleagues >> home which had expansion capability, but he often complained that cards for >> interesting applications, like mass storage, etc, were not available. I >> didn't pursue it and so I believe(d) it to be true. I saw one ad for an >> SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was >> not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor >> was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now >> of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I >> ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. > >Richard, the rest of the world does not peer through the same blinders you have on. > >Sellam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com >--------------------------------------------------------------------------- --- >Don't rub the lamp if you don't want the genie to come out. > > Coming this October 2-3: Vintage Computer Festival 3.0! > See http://www.vintage.org/vcf for details! > [Last web site update: 04/03/99] >

25 years, 2 months

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by cfandt＠netsync.net

Upon the date 04:28 PM 4/21/99 -0700, Sellam Ismail said something like: -- snip -- >Ok, you asked for it. > >http://www.blinkenlights.com/pc.shtml Thanls for the URL! > >This should answer the question "What was the first personal computer?" >once and for all. Well, that's certainly an understatement Sellam! This seems to be a well researched trail leading up to the Simon, IMO. However, any good guess as to how many Simons were actually made and successfully run from the over 400 plan sets sold? Any known to exist now? To try to solve that First Microcomputer question, a set of attributes must first be set just like the set was to determine the 1st PC as shown in the above URL. Methinks that will be a bit troublesome as nobody seemed to agree on that during the last go-around of discussing the 1st Microcomputer here awhile back. Regards, Chris -- -- Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net Member of Antique Wireless Association URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa

25 years, 2 months

How scarce (valuable) is core for the PDP-8?

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<How long does core stay magnetized without power? Years. <How many bytes of battery-backed RAM are there in a typical PC? Not a lot usually something in the 32-128byte range, maybe more. <Haven't there been contemporary memory devices that use nano-scale <cores, to eliminate the battery needs and radiation sensitivity of RAM? Not that I'm aware of. Allison

25 years, 2 months

Saving *BIG* Old Iron...

by mbg＠world.std.com

>This seems very melancholy to me. Delightful that you're there to >preserve the machines for posterity, but sad that prodcutive machines are >being shut down after long service. > >"Farewell, o' good and faithful servant". I know what you mean... I've read the story about the shutdown of a -10 system back in october of 82(?) which is on Tim Shoppa's ftp area... I wish I could have something as touching... What is sad about it is the fact that part of the reason the machines are being decomissioned is the person who cared for them apparently died recently of cancer... today's shutdown was part of the ongoing grieving process for the people who had been using them. It was difficult for them... They are, however, very glad that the machines won't simply be relegated to a trash heap somewhere... they're really glad that they will have new owners who will care for them and keep them running... So we don't have to say farewell to them, they wll find service. Part of that service will be to provide a base system against which some KS10 emulators which I know are being developed can be compared against. I also hope that someday we will be able to get them on the net and let others use them. Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

25 years, 2 months

z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

Since we all see to have so much time on our hands . . . perhaps it would be amusing to attempt to write the SAME logic in the SAME way on each processor, then compare to see which is faster. THEN turn around and try to improve the implementation of this logic to see which is easier to speed up, and perhaps see which has the greatest cost in terms of memory usage, etc. It's truly a retrocomputing exercise, as neither processor is "still around" in the sense of mainstream applications, or even as an "active" product. I guess that qualifies it as an extended topic in this forum. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 16, 1999 2:00 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >> I realy love your mails - Just reading all of this I felt almost >> 20 years younger - I was involved _very_ heavyly into the Z80/8080 >> vs. 6502 discusion back then - weh had a circle of engeneers where >> one part wher 8085/Z80 advocates, whie some (like me) where 6502 >> boreheads. > >Actually I'm not done with it. just have the time. The fundemental >problem is not really which is faster, I think for the real world >applications they are likely close but the arguement is flawed. It >misstates the z80 and 6502 timing vs real useage. > >What's funny is I have a kim one I can run and a z80 SBC for comparison. > > >Allison > > >

25 years, 2 months

z80 timing... 6502 timing

by edick＠idcomm.com

The TI computers in general were a bit off center in a number of ways. They certainly had potential which was under utilized, I suspect, because of a strange way of interfacing to their video subsystem. Lacking an OS and the usual assortment of non-game (carefully not using words like "serious" or "real-world" or . . .) software applications was a bit of a hindrance, though. I ws never interested in the TI stuff for my own use, as it didn't offer anything I didn't already have with other systems. I looked into their 9980 (single chipper) for a while. It turned out not to be much of an improvement over the 8748 for which I'd already done all the requisite suffering, so that's what I used. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Mark Gregory <gregorym(a)cadvision.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 8:52 PM Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >Now I know that many people didn't consider it a reasonable computer, but >the TMS-9900 did make a memorable appearance in the TI-99/4/4A of blessed >memory - 16K if I recall correctly. Once you added a PEB, RS-232 card, 32 K >memory card, 2 HH DS/SD floppies and an Extended Basic cartidge, it was a >fine computer. > >So bite your tongue. > >Cheers, >Mark "They'll pry my TI out of my cold, dead hands" Gregory > >At 02:16 PM 4/21/99 -0600, you wrote: >>For the longest time, the TMS 9900 didn't appear in anything one could >>consider a reasonable computer. There was one model I saw at a colleagues >>home which had expansion capability, but he often complained that cards for >>interesting applications, like mass storage, etc, were not available. I >>didn't pursue it and so I believe(d) it to be true. I saw one ad for an >>SC/MP, in '77, but that one was a homebrewed model. Other than that, it was >>not of much interest here. Was that not the case in Germany? The processor >>was still in National's data book, but I really wasn't then and am not now >>of any operating system or application software for it. I don't believe I >>ever saw a real SC/MP based computer. >> >>Dick >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Hans Franke <Hans.Franke(a)mch20.sbs.de> >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >>Date: Wednesday, April 21, 1999 2:10 PM >>Subject: Re: z80 timing... 6502 timing >> >> >>>> I suppose that's true, Hans, BUT, in1982, there were few other >>processors >>>> than the 6502 and Z-80 in popular use, with the exception of the 8080A >>and >>>> the 8085, of course. The majority of home computers, though, used one of >>>> these two, at that time. Several years later, we found the 6510 and 6809 >>in >>>> commercially interesting applications, but not for as long a period as >>the >>>> Z-80 and 6502. These two had a life of nearly ten years before the >>IBM-PC >>>> and its clones wrenched the home computer market from their grasp. >>> >>>in 1982, the 9900 was also big and beasts like SC/MP where still on >>>the run (and 680xx, 808x and 160xx comming up), but you're right if >>>you want to pich the two mayor player in the SOHO market. >>> >>>But still, a general measurement includes them. >>> >>>Gruss >>>H. >>> >>>-- >>>Stimm gegen SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/de/ >>>Vote against SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/en/ >>>Votez contre le SPAM: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/fr/ >>>Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut >>>HRK >> >> >>

25 years, 2 months

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test-drb April 1999