test-drb April 1999

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

170 participants
1190 discussions

by rigdonj＠intellistar.net

I scrounged around a found a stock of Intel 1702 EPROMs today. I know some of you have been looking for these. What are they worth? Joe

25 years, 8 months

Is video relevant? (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was:And what were the 80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

I have to agree that the argument is not pivotin around a single point. I've always thought of computers intended for home use as being personal computers. This doesn't mean that they can't be applied to non-home tasks, but if they're designed, packaged, and marketed for home use, they probably ought to be considered personal. The same can be true if they were designed to be used by a single individual, as opposed to several even if at different times. This doesn't mean that if it can be used by more than one individual it's not a personal computer. Likewise, if it's priced such that a normal, rational (not to imply that we users are either of these things) person could easily consider and justify owning one, it's probably a personal computer. Whether it had video-game-capable graphics is another issue. NOT EVERYONE WANTS HIS COMPUTER TO BE A HOT GAME MACHINE. That doesn't say that everyone who has a computer well suited for video games has a game machine, but it also doesn't say that every "game machine," be it Atari or Z-whatever, must be excluded from consideration as a personal computer. Frankly, I've completely lost track of why this was being discussed. I was, at one point indicating that what was listed at the "first" personal computer was really pretty expensive for "personal" consumption at the time at which it, or, rather, its plans were being marketed. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 2:57 PM Subject: Is video relevant? (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was:And what were the 80s >On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Derek Peschel wrote: >> The argument is getting out of control >OK >> because the arguers are trying to >> make the same point (to be a personal computer, a machine must have video >> capability as an integral part of its construction) using different >> definitions of "video capability". So I wanted to point out that the >> two definitions didn't match. >> The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 >> machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part of >> the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I >> think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- >> that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from >> a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry >> can't be easily changed or removed. > >Excuse me? >Am I misunderstanding you? >Or are you saying that a machine that is sold without video is NOT a >"personal computer", even if a video card is sold separately? >And that if the DEALER installs the video card, that it is still a >"borderline case" for being a PC? > >By THAT reasoning, virtually NONE of the "PC Compatible" could be more >than "borderline"! It would mean that NONE of my 80x86 machines are PCs! >(I purchased the video cards separately, and installed them in all of >them, INCLUDING the 5150s.) > > >> Actually, this whole "First PC" argument is getting out of control, because >> everyone is free to use a different definition. The the argument >> degenerates into a "My definition is right!" argument. That's the reason I >> don't get involved. > >THAT part is inarguable. Unless a definition becomes externally impoised, >it will always remain subjective. >

25 years, 8 months

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were

by edick＠idcomm.com

I have to agree with you on this one. The business community lent some measure of legitimacy to the "pre-IBM-PC" systems by putting them on the desktop to do "useful" work. They didn't care so much about "Space Invaders" or some other game. Without Visicalc and Wordstar, the micromputers of yesteryear would have been nothing more than video toys. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 10:57 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were >> "standards of usability", and considers that the "unusable" predecessors >> "don't count" towards being "FIRST". For some it's PRICE; for some it's >> internal characteristics; but for MOST, it's the ability to run the >> software that that user thinks is significant. > >I'd say it's fair to differentiate those that had to be toggled to life or >some such but there were already many systems that were turnkey and ran >significant software without investing in an engineering degree. However >in the age of retro-revisionism and the advent of the dumbing down of the >populace I would then contend the machine that wipes ones fanny is still >wanting. While games are a real challenge and make their authors big >bucks Its relevence to a word processor or spread sheet (two killer apps) >is barely there. I would contend that the apple and cpm machine that >could run visicalc (Dbase, Multiplan and so on) are the real contenders >for the PC revolution. > >Somewhere in all this pony manure is the pony I always wanted. In the >mean time I keep digging.. ;) > > >Allison > >

25 years, 8 months

Is video relevant? (was: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

> that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from > a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry > can't be easily changed or removed. And as long as we're taking arguments to their extremes, Apple ]['s *often* had their video circuitry changed and video signals replaced. That's what the 80-column (and other available video cards) did. Later ]['s have a header on the motherboard to make it easy to substitute aftermarket video. -- Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

25 years, 8 months

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the 80s

by CLASSICCMP＠trailing-edge.com

>The issue of "integral part" is different. I didn't mean that the S-100 >machines had no video capability, I mean that it wasn't an integral part of >the system because you had to install it. A manufacturer (like SOL? I >think) might install the video for you and sell the result as a package -- >that's an interesting borderline case. But S-100 is clearly different from >a single board (like the Apple ][ motherboard) in which the video circuitry >can't be easily changed or removed. >Actually, this whole "First PC" argument is getting out of control, I agree it's getting out of control, but back to the "integral video" question: doesn't this requirement make the IBM PC (5150) not a PC? (I'm about to break into Eric the Half-a-Bee here...) Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/ 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917 Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927

25 years, 8 months

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

Don't forget that between 1952 and 1960, the price of a phone call, a coin-machine-vended soft drink, and lots of other common consumables doubled. The price of cars did more than that, and the country, having endured, and survived, the post-war(s) recession(s), was about to embark on what now is viewed as the biggest and fastest moving era of economic growth the world has ever seen. That took less than the 8 years between the end of the Korean war and the election of JFK. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt <cfandt(a)netsync.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 1:13 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >Upon the date 12:21 PM 4/23/99 -0600, Richard Erlacher said something like: >>You're right, the numbers are not universal. It's hard to find numbers that >>are, BUT, in 1952, people didn't have electric dryers, and washing machines >>had wringers attached, as well as rollers on the bottom because housewives >>would roll them out the walk in back of the house to where the clothes line >>was located so they could hang their clothes and linens, the latter having >>been wrung before being hung on the line. >> >>In '52, as men were returning from the Korean war, the economy was still >>shuddering from the effect of the Korean war so soon in the wake of WWII. >> >>I'm not an economist, and even they probably can't explain exactly what was >>going on, but in the early '50's a phone call, a soft drink, a Saturday >>movie, and bus fare typically cost a nickel (that's 5-cents for those not >>accustomed to our monetary units.) in the midwestern US. In early '52, I >>lived in NYC, having just immigrated from Germany, and later (June '52) in >>Oklahoma City. In '55, we moved to Denver, where things really didn't seem >>too different, at least from what I heard from parents, etc. By then some >>people did have electric dryers, though. Electric ranges were more common >>as well. >> >>Housing was typically on 1/4-acre lots in the suburbs and the usual 1/6-1/5 >>acre lots in the city. If you lived where lots were 1/3 acre, you were >>probably well-off. >> >>When I lived in Oklahoma City, my nearest playmate was a physician's son. >>The guy who lived across the street from him was the chief of the state's >>highway patrol. By 1960, the culture had changed so much that people in >>those positions wouldn't dream of living in the same neighborhood with >>"working folks" like my parents. >> >>What I'm getting at here, is that things were VERY different by 1960, than >>they had been seven or eight years before. >> >>If you were raised after '60, the world would have looked quite different >>than it did in the early '50's. > >I was born in '53. I had the opportunity to see and perhaps experience the >social, economic and ethnic changes which happened though the 60's decade >and at least half of the 70's. What a change it was. > >I see where you are coming from Dick and lean more towards your view of the >matter. However, when I put the same feelings into the perspective of some >young whippersnapper like Sellam, then I see where he's coming from. > >Back in the early 60's, Dad had a job which paid about $4000 per year, Mom >did not work. With a mortgage, trying to pay for a ten-year-old car, >feeding me and my mother and him plus all the other incidental bills, we >had little spare money. Fried chicken or something simple like macaroni and >cheese were very common meals at supper because they were cheap. It was >Kentucky Fried Chicken only because my mother is from the Eastern hills of >KY, not from the Colonel's famous restaurant chain;) > >A $100 expenditure would be serious business if it was something which was >really needed. > >Allison's list of costs is accurate for me too except for the salaries and >our house cost $4300 on a half-acre in 1957 and there were only three in >our family. Sellam and others his generation in CA probably lived in a >region in which costs *and* corresponding salaries >were higher than what folks of my generation (Allison, Dick) grew up with. > >Things are weird even now. A decent three bedroom house with two car garage >on a decent lot in the city of Jamestown can be had for $45k to $60k. >However, groceries are avg. 10% higher than big city costs likely because >of lower competition and transportation costs to get them here. Other >cities like the NYC area, Boston area, Chicago area, LA area, Bay Area, >etc., etc., etc. have housing costs which are higher. Our European and >Australian colleagues may have the same experiences. > >It's all relative as can be seen by my one example above. Sellam, Dick, >myself and everybody else have different points of view as a result of our >"home" areas and our ages therefore our opinions will be formed accordingly. > >Let's wander back to an appropriate topic for this list:) What was it? >First PC? > > >> >>Dick >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> >>To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers >><classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> >>Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:51 AM >>Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were >>the80s >> >> >>>> of the "average" American. First of all, it was over a month's pay for >>the >>>> average American, it was equivalent to six months' groceries for a family >>of >>>> four, and you could get a refrigerator or a washer, neither of which were >>>> routine discretionary expenditures for the "average" American of that >>time. >>>> That was during and immediately after the Korean war, when a 4-bedroom >>house >>>> on a 1/4-acre lot cost $4600. That same house, now, in California would >>>> cost you $4600 a month to rent. People's attitudes about what's >>important >>>> enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. >>> >>>The nubers you quote are not universal or reflected everywhere in the >>>US. >>> >>>On LI NY, 1960: >>> >>> My father made roughly 100$ take home. >>> My mother made 54$ as nurses aid. >>> My parent house cost $18,000 in 1957 (1/3 acre) >>> Neither car was never than three years old. >>> A washer was 110$ >>> A dryer (electric) was 122$ >>> Bazooka gum was 1 cent a piece >>> Weeks food from the A&P for 5 was ~33$ >>> The PDP-1 was considered groundbreaking for it's low >>> price of $120,000. >>> >>>By 1964 >>> >>> a 19 inch portable black and white TV was 120$ and still used >>> tubes. >>> >>>In 1971 >>> >>> A new chevy pickup was 2700$ >>> A used 8i system could be had for 2-3000 with peripherals(disks) >>> A new Cincinatti Milichron CM2000 basic machine was $2000. >>> >>>in short use real numbers. >>> >>>Allison >>> > >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net >Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.ggw.org/awa

25 years, 8 months

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

See embedded comments below, plz. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 12:22 PM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >Now, now. > >Without a lot of loose nuts, silicon valley and the "personal computer >revolution" might not have come off. That's actually true, I believe, although the now-past concentration of "intelligencia" in CA was the product of wise investment in educational institutions on California's part. With the economic successes bred by the liberal policies toward education and human services, California became a magnet for not only free-thinkers, but free-loaders as well. Now they're well into a backlash, e.g. Prop 13, Prop 187, etc. which seem to have passed. The liberal forces are still strong though. They talked about Jerry Brown as "Governor Moonbeam" but he was just a reflection of what the people had indicated a few years earlier that they wanted. A truly constructive dialog has to begin with the diametrically opposed extremes, doesn't it? >"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; >the unreasonable one persists in trying to >adapt the world to himself. >Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." > - George bernard Shaw > > >Just wait. After the big one, and everything east of the San Andreas >sinks into the Atlantic, . . . >

25 years, 8 months

H214 board for pdp-8x?

by jlwest＠tseinc.com

Can any pdp8'ers out there tell me if an H214 core board works in an 8E ? I thought the 8E used H212, but I'm not sure Thanks! Jay West

25 years, 8 months

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

Please see embedded comments below. Dick -----Original Message----- From: Bill Pechter <pechter(a)pechter.dyndns.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 11:31 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >> This "#@$&*() bull," was part of the party line presented by a DEC sales >> team at a presentation I attended about fifteen years ago, on behalf of one >> of the "systems integration contractors" their policies were designed to >> support. The presenters routinely referred to their clever position in the >> government market in the terms I used. > > >Considering I worked at DEC in 81-86 and we sold DIRECT to Fort Monmouth >I think that statement was misleading. I was not trying to mislead anyone, but, rather, to pass along what my colleagues and I were told at a pitch put on for us by the DEC sales force. We were engaged in a militarization of a uVAX-II by repackaging it in our own enclosure, with our own backplane/cardcage, and using EMULEX controllers and a truly high-res display subsystem separate from the console. Our task was integration-intensive. We had to buy a company in CA in order to ensure they would be around long enough to produce our ultra-high-res display boards, though I would have preferred to build it ourselves. That notion was incompatible with the premise on which the contract was based (COTS equipment, repackged to meet TEMPEST, among other standards. Do you suppose DEC had a separate company for handling this type of contract? That would explain the party-line that was laid out before us. We bought their Q-bus boards but provided our own <virtually everything else>. It seemed reasonable enough that they would take the position they took with government/military business. >DEC sold stuff via OEM's who often did system integration with NON-DEC >hardware and software and packaged systems with specialized requirements. >I remember a Martin Marietta special 11/70 in tempest cabinets with special >requirements -- but that was not common. > >A large number of the DEC stuff was sold through government contractors >because they could get machines under blanket agreements without >some of the government procurement restrictions and approvals. That was probably the case with our particular contract. I wasn't involved in the procurement, which made it a curious thing that I was sent to all these pitches. This was a "cost-plus" contract, so naturally it benefitted everyone when we could make the cost go up. Subsequent fixed-price arrangements had me begging our top managers to let me redesign the whole computer/cardcage/backplane using the microVax chipset by then (9/86 or so) available for use in BI-bus interfaces, on a VME card. I believed I could cram all the required hardware onto a dual-height VME card (about the size of a full Q-bus card) so we didn't have to deal with so many vendors, and then allowing us to use more readily available hi-res graphics hardware. The situation was so politically charged, I was called on the carpet by the VP in charge of that contract, and, I believe, nearly fired. If I hadn't been so fortunate as to have a long string of technical predictions (contradicting what the JPL guys had said) which were substantiated, I probably would have gone packing that day. >DEC got sued (and settled with the govt) because of the following issue: > >GSA got higher pricing from DEC than Ma Bell on their Vax orders. Were they buying through the same agent? >GSA also required installation, insurance, and warranty differences >in their negotiations for government pricing... I know -- I was dedicated >as an installation specialist in 81 when both Bell Labs and Fort Monmouth >were buying large amounts of Vax and DEC stuff. > >The GSA claimed the DEC prices for AT&T were lower than GSA prices >which is not allowed. DEC claimed they weren't for the same configuration >and services (which was true). >Ma Bell paid for insurance as a line item and either installed the machines >themselves and self insured or did away with insurance. > >(The govt didn't accept FOB coverage -- you sue the trucking company >for damages. DEC had to process any warranty and go against the delivery >company. You should see what an 11/780 looks like after it's been dropped >off a loading dock. Card cages were smashed. H7000 power supplies where >the card cages were. Doors bent in half. That machine was repaired >and was still running 4 or 5 years ago.) > >DEC settled rather than fight the government in court on this one. This is one of those cases where you settle because you don't think you can find a judge smart enough to understand the issues. >Bill

25 years, 8 months

The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s

by edick＠idcomm.com

You're right, the numbers are not universal. It's hard to find numbers that are, BUT, in 1952, people didn't have electric dryers, and washing machines had wringers attached, as well as rollers on the bottom because housewives would roll them out the walk in back of the house to where the clothes line was located so they could hang their clothes and linens, the latter having been wrung before being hung on the line. In '52, as men were returning from the Korean war, the economy was still shuddering from the effect of the Korean war so soon in the wake of WWII. I'm not an economist, and even they probably can't explain exactly what was going on, but in the early '50's a phone call, a soft drink, a Saturday movie, and bus fare typically cost a nickel (that's 5-cents for those not accustomed to our monetary units.) in the midwestern US. In early '52, I lived in NYC, having just immigrated from Germany, and later (June '52) in Oklahoma City. In '55, we moved to Denver, where things really didn't seem too different, at least from what I heard from parents, etc. By then some people did have electric dryers, though. Electric ranges were more common as well. Housing was typically on 1/4-acre lots in the suburbs and the usual 1/6-1/5 acre lots in the city. If you lived where lots were 1/3 acre, you were probably well-off. When I lived in Oklahoma City, my nearest playmate was a physician's son. The guy who lived across the street from him was the chief of the state's highway patrol. By 1960, the culture had changed so much that people in those positions wouldn't dream of living in the same neighborhood with "working folks" like my parents. What I'm getting at here, is that things were VERY different by 1960, than they had been seven or eight years before. If you were raised after '60, the world would have looked quite different than it did in the early '50's. Dick -----Original Message----- From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Friday, April 23, 1999 6:51 AM Subject: Re: The "FIRST PC" and personal timelines (Was: And what were the80s >> of the "average" American. First of all, it was over a month's pay for the >> average American, it was equivalent to six months' groceries for a family of >> four, and you could get a refrigerator or a washer, neither of which were >> routine discretionary expenditures for the "average" American of that time. >> That was during and immediately after the Korean war, when a 4-bedroom house >> on a 1/4-acre lot cost $4600. That same house, now, in California would >> cost you $4600 a month to rent. People's attitudes about what's important >> enough to spend your money on have changed considerably. > >The nubers you quote are not universal or reflected everywhere in the >US. > >On LI NY, 1960: > > My father made roughly 100$ take home. > My mother made 54$ as nurses aid. > My parent house cost $18,000 in 1957 (1/3 acre) > Neither car was never than three years old. > A washer was 110$ > A dryer (electric) was 122$ > Bazooka gum was 1 cent a piece > Weeks food from the A&P for 5 was ~33$ > The PDP-1 was considered groundbreaking for it's low > price of $120,000. > >By 1964 > > a 19 inch portable black and white TV was 120$ and still used > tubes. > >In 1971 > > A new chevy pickup was 2700$ > A used 8i system could be had for 2-3000 with peripherals(disks) > A new Cincinatti Milichron CM2000 basic machine was $2000. > >in short use real numbers. > >Allison >

25 years, 8 months

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test-drb April 1999