- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Sean Caron > the worst thing on the market since the old Quantum Bigfoot Just out of curiousity, what was so bad about the Bigfoot? Noel

10 years, 7 months

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Looking for some DEC-related spares..

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: tony duell > They would never take being straightened, the metal is partially > fractured already. Ah. OK. Well, a later poster mentioned a possible source of new feet - I had assumed you wanted exactly identical ones, which may not be available, but if all you want is functionality, you can probably find that from the sources they provided. > I have found a little 4 slot Qbus box with 3 swtiches on the front, > these seem to be the same mechanisms behind the toggles. Yes, they are: I fixed an 11/05 front panel with switches sourced from one of those 11/03 front panels. I hated to do it, but the 11/03 panel was a spare, and as you say, if the switches ever re-appear, I can repair it. Noel

10 years, 7 months

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Looking for some DEC-related spares..

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: tony duell > 2 of said feet got bent at right-angles (!) Hammer them straight, and clean up the threads with a die. Those outriggers are unobtainium, so I can't imagine the feet are much better. > switch mechanisms for the PDP11/45 front panel. I have the toggles > (thankfully), I need the switches Now you're really into unobtainium territory. We've been moaning about the inability to find these for a while now. All the early 11's (except the 11/20) use these - 11/05, 11/40, 11/45, etc - and a bunch of us need them, but nothing doing. Noel

10 years, 7 months

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Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?

by derschjo＠gmail.com

Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this model (a badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732"). I can take some detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up (it's very, very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit pictured on this site: http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm Anyone have any docs on this thing? Or fun anecdotes to share? What have I gotten myself into with this thing? Thanks, Josh

10 years, 7 months

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Is tape dead?

by c.murray.mccullough＠gmail.com

I came across a fascinating article by Evan Koblentz in TechRepublic Daily Digest today entitled: ?Tape isn't dying -- it's getting healthier and smarter?. Does this mean my ADAM tape drive system has a future after all? Naw! But one can wish. Are there tape systems in the PDP family, et. al., still running? Happy computing. Murray :)

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FOR SALE: IMSAI 8080, Canon Cat, PDP 11/05, Heathkit H11, Polymorphic Systems POLY88, SWTPC 6800

by sellam＠vintagetech.com

I have the following systems presently for sale: IMSAI 8080 http://vintagetech.com/sales/IMSAI%208080/ Canon Cat http://vintagetech.com/sales/Canon%20Cat/ PDP 11/05 http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/PDP%2011-05.JPG Heathkit H11 http://vintagetech.com/sales/Heathkit%20H11/ Polymorphic Systems POLY88 http://vintagetech.com/sales/Polymorphic%20Systems%20POLY88/ SWTPC 6800 http://vintagetech.com/sales/SWTPC%206800/ Please inquire in private e-mail for more information and price (negotiable). Thanks! -- Sellam ibn Abraham VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. The truth is always simple. * * * NOTICE * * * Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered reliable for any purpose either express or implied. The contents of this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. The right of the people to be secure in their papers against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated.

10 years, 7 months

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Moving PDP 11 gear - Status update

by lyokoboy0＠gmail.com

Hello. It has been a while since i have posted anything on this list. Last time i posted i was asking advice on how to properly load up and move a pdp 11 with related gear. It has been quite some time since i picked all this stuff up and figured i would give a status update here to let others know my progress with the machine. Images of what I picked up can be posted later if there is interest. In total i picked up the following: 2 racks containing - a pdp 11/34 2 RL02 drives A RL01 Drive 2 complete vt 100 terminals 2 large line printers a second empty 11/34 . no cards. second rack contains a large tape drive. Piles of tapes and rl02 disks. I have yet to inventory them all. Most are labled with aircraft names. The machine was used to recover flight data recorder info, so i imagine that is what is on most of the tapes. Lots of RSX docs and related tapes. I had the machine fired up for an hour or two, i was messing with the front panel when i heard a fizzing sound followed by a burning smell. The front panel is no longer responsive. I have been going over the power supply. Mr Paul Anderson on the list here has been generously been giving much of his spare time assisting me on the phone with troubleshooting the power supply. Thats my progress so far. Kinda taunting that i moved it all the way over here and it does not even work yet, but hopefully soon i can get it to work again. Lastly, the line printers were thrown in at the last moment, i was not sure i was even going to be able to fit them in the van. Due to their weight i have not been able to move them from where they were sat down since they were picked up back in july. If anyone is interested in them, i can let them go for cheap. I just do not have the space for them both, but the seller was going to throw them out if i did not take them. Ill post back with the model #'s and a couple pictures. --Devin

10 years, 7 months

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RL01, RL02, RK06, RK07 cable differences

by useddec＠gmail.com

Does anyone have both of these that I can pick their brains? Thanks, Paul

10 years, 7 months

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cctech Digest, Vol 15, Issue 25

by clemc＠ccc.com

?below...? On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 1:00 PM, <cctech-request at classiccmp.org> wrote: > --------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> > > http://www.eah-jena.de/~kleine/history/languages/ansi-x3dot9 > -1966-Fortran66.pdf > > The surprising thing is how spare the ANSI document is: 36 pages, > including appendices. > > Compare to, say, F95... > ?Chuck, I sent your comment to one of the guys on the current ANSI standard, his reply: "Fortran 2015 is currently 617 pages and will go some more before publication"?

10 years, 7 months

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Amstrad CPC6128 joins the rest home

by terry＠webweavers.co.nz

It's a busy life nowadays but never too busy to kit out a newly-acquired Amstrad CPC6128. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2015-09-24-amstrad6128-acquire-fix… for those who might be interested. It's the first time I've played with those 3 inch disks. Tez

10 years, 7 months

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Looking for some DEC-related spares..

by ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk

I am currently sorting things out after a house move last year and getting my PDP11s back together. Unfortuantely there was some damage in the move [1] and I am currently looking for a source for the following : 1) 2 off the small screw-down feet used on the outriggers of the H960 rack. Not the larger ones under the rack, the little ones with the 3/8" A/F hexagon for a spanner. I have the outrigger castings, undamaged, but 2 of said feet got bent at right-angles (!) [2] 2) 2 off switch mechanisms for the PDP11/45 front panel. I have the toggles (thankfully), I need the switches. I think the 11/40 and 11/70 use the same swtiches. Probably C&K originally. [1] I have learnt the hard way. If you need to move classic computers do not use a removal company (this applies to anything else of any value). It is cheaper in the end to find 3 or so friends and give them 10K pounds/dollars each to help you with the move. [2] I asked said removal men if I should remove the outriggers. They told me not to bother. Looks like they tried to pivot the rack on those little feet (!). -tony

10 years, 7 months

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US source for SCSI2SD boards

by aek＠bitsavers.org

>from the vintage-computer list http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?49260-SCSI2SD-microS… http://www.ebay.com/itm/191700123328

10 years, 7 months

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OT: Migraine was RE: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal ...

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

I have tried the log the foods I eat and all the other routines to find a cure... was even willing to give up lobster if that was a trigger. Alas - so far, no solve. Ed# In a message dated 9/25/2015 12:22:15 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com writes: Used to get the headaches with no visuals, but wearing the correct glasses and keeping my screen clean seems to have solved that, but since then, like Dwight, I have had a couple of attacks of the "lightening lines" and blurred vision. The eye hospital tell me that this is an "ocular migraine" and I can concour its really strange and somewhat scary especially for the first time... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight > Sent: 25 September 2015 03:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: RE: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with > small ecli... > > I get the squiggly lines but no headache. > Strange stuff. > Dwight > > > > Subject: Re: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with > small ecli... > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > From: cube1 at charter.net > > Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:59:39 -0500 > > > > On 9/22/2015 11:00 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > > probably an artifact generated by my migraine this evening . > > > > > > > Ugh. Had some of those while I was in High School, complete with > > squiggly lines, often nausea and hours of intense pain. You have my > > sympathy. > > > > Then one day I started to get one while I was driving from home to the > > local music store. I pulled over, took a deep breath and (I kid you > > not) told myself no, you are not going to get a migraine, ain't gonna > > happen. It went away almost immediately, and I haven't had one since. > > Go figure. Almost certainly pure coincidence. [I wish that would work > > for everyone. Sigh.] > > > > JRJ >

10 years, 7 months

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OT: Migraine was RE: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small ecli...

by dave.g4ugm＠gmail.com

Used to get the headaches with no visuals, but wearing the correct glasses and keeping my screen clean seems to have solved that, but since then, like Dwight, I have had a couple of attacks of the "lightening lines" and blurred vision. The eye hospital tell me that this is an "ocular migraine" and I can concour its really strange and somewhat scary especially for the first time... Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight > Sent: 25 September 2015 03:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: RE: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with > small ecli... > > I get the squiggly lines but no headache. > Strange stuff. > Dwight > > > > Subject: Re: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with > small ecli... > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > From: cube1 at charter.net > > Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 23:59:39 -0500 > > > > On 9/22/2015 11:00 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > > probably an artifact generated by my migraine this evening . > > > > > > > Ugh. Had some of those while I was in High School, complete with > > squiggly lines, often nausea and hours of intense pain. You have my > > sympathy. > > > > Then one day I started to get one while I was driving from home to the > > local music store. I pulled over, took a deep breath and (I kid you > > not) told myself no, you are not going to get a migraine, ain't gonna > > happen. It went away almost immediately, and I haven't had one since. > > Go figure. Almost certainly pure coincidence. [I wish that would work > > for everyone. Sigh.] > > > > JRJ >

10 years, 7 months

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cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 24

by mark＠markesystems.com

>> I don't know what you're looking at for the front end of this project, >> but have you considered SQLite for the database engine back end? If > >No, I would not consider it. I have experience with it on my Garmin GPS >unit. I really dislike it. Wow - I'm quite surprised at that. It is in *everything*: Android, iOS, FireFox, Chrome, - the list goes far on. Personally, I've never used it on an embedded platform, although I'm certainly keeping it in my back pocket for the time when I need an embedded database. What problems have you experienced? I have used it on PC platforms, and have been quite impressed with how robust the database structure is. It's all contained in one file, and it's an in-process library, not a server. This makes it not-as-good for massively multi-user stuff, but *much* easier to administer; no daemons to manage, and just one database file (like Access, but better). I use it for industrial automation applications, and have tested it a lot to see if I could corrupt the database. Basically, unless I deliberately mangled the container file, I couldn't get it to fail non-gracefully, even by turning of the power while writing the file. (This was not a full, rigorous failure study, but I've got a lot of them out there now, and although I get plenty of support calls a screwed-up database is never the root cause.) Just my experience... ~~ Mark Moulding ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:09:42 -0500 From: Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus Message-ID: <56032326.30504 at charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 9/23/2015 4:27 PM, ben wrote: > On 9/23/2015 2:39 AM, ANDY HOLT wrote: >>> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> >> >> ? >>> After all, languages are supposed to expose features >>> of the underlying machine to the programmer. >> >> Many believe that the purpose of languages is to HIDE (abstract) the >> underlying >> machine. > > The 60's idea that MACROS could do that seems to have faded away. > Ben. > > Yes, STAGE2 and friends pretty well faded out when LR grammars and parsers and parser generators became more widely understood and used. JRJ ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 00:15:10 +0100 From: Antonio Carlini <a.carlini at ntlworld.com> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?] Message-ID: <5603327E.3080107 at ntlworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 21/09/15 14:15, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: tony duell > > > In some cases it should be possible to write a machine code program > > that executes on 2 processors with wildly different instruciton > sets. > > I have this bit set that I was told (or something, the memory is _very_ > vague) that early versions of the KL-10 had this hack; the root block on > the > disk was the boot block both the PDP-10 and the PDP-11 front end machine, > and > the first instruction or two was very cleverly construced and sent the two > machines different ways. Alas, I looked in the front-end PDP-11 code (in > the > KLDCP; directory) and saw no signs of this, so maybe it was an urban > legend? > > I can't find a definitive reference right now, but I *think* that the ODS-1 disk format was first used on the PDP-11 and then later used in early versions of VMS. I *think* that it was arranged such that a PDP-11 booting and a VMS system booting could be done from the same disk by arranging for each to interpret the boot block in a way that each was happy with. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:24:53 -0700 From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus Message-ID: <560334C5.40102 at sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed On 09/23/2015 02:27 PM, ben wrote: > The 60's idea that MACROS could do that seems to have faded away. > Ben. It depends. One very handy method is to devise a machine architecture, complete with registers and opcodes, and write the application code in macros, creating instruction words--and then run them using a small emulator for the devised machine. After operation can be validated, re-code the macro bodies to generate native machine code instead of emulated fictitious machine instructions. A way to get certain tasks done very quickly. The C macro facility barely qualifies as such. PL/I had a wonderful preprocessor; some assemblers were similarly versatile. For example, I've used an assembler that boasted support of arrays of structures of user-defined data types. Now that was a macro facility. --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:29:37 -0500 From: Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus Message-ID: <560335E1.4070607 at charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 9/23/2015 6:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 09/23/2015 02:27 PM, ben wrote: > >> The 60's idea that MACROS could do that seems to have faded away. >> Ben. > > It depends. One very handy method is to devise a machine architecture, > complete with registers and opcodes, and write the application code in > macros, creating instruction words--and then run them using a small > emulator for the devised machine. > > After operation can be validated, re-code the macro bodies to generate > native machine code instead of emulated fictitious machine instructions. > > A way to get certain tasks done very quickly. > Shades of SIL for SNOBOL and also STAGE2. JRJ ------------------------------ Message: 25 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 00:38:34 +0100 From: Antonio Carlini <a.carlini at ntlworld.com> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?] Message-ID: <560337FA.70404 at ntlworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 21/09/15 01:55, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > I used the above example when I created a CD which had files to be used > with RT-11 in addition to being a normal CD under Windows. I found that > for a normal CD under Windows, sectors 0 to 15 (hard disk blocks 0 to 63) > on the CD were empty. I don't know if that area is reserved for boot > code > under Windows when the CD is bootable, but my goal did not require the > CD to be bootable under Windows. I did something very similar (or rather, used someone else's code to do something very similar) with ODS-2 under OpenVMS and ISO9660 (which is what Windows uses for CD media iirc). As you say, ISO9660 leaves the first 16 (or thereabouts) 2048 byte blocks undefined. ODS-2, on the other hand, uses them. So the code builds an ISO9660 CD and then overlays the ODS-2 structure on top. It finds the ISO9660 directory structures and arranges for them to live in BADBLK.SYS so VMS is happy enough when mounting the media. All the ODS-2 structures get packed into the beginning of the image so anything looking at the ISO9660 side sees nothing untoward. This only works well for filetypes that have no special structure under ODS-2: basically CR-LF text files and binary formats (such as PDF). I still have a CD that I built this way many moons ago. I remember reading a message in one of the EASYnet NOTES conferences (inside DEC) which more or less said that ISO9660 leaving those initial blocks free wasn't a coincidence and that DEC's representative (Andy Goldstein perhaps) had pushed for that. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org ------------------------------ Message: 26 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 16:57:22 -0700 From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus Message-ID: <56033C62.9040804 at sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed On 09/23/2015 04:29 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > Shades of SIL for SNOBOL and also STAGE2. The first time I did this was for translating COBOL to a special-purpose dialect. Not a simple lexical task--it was a full-blown two-pass affair. The initial test versions of the thing were very, very slow. Once the native-code version was rolled out, it was very, very fast. Development time was pretty fast. --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 27 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 02:36:13 +0200 From: Johnny Billquist <bqt at update.uu.se> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?] Message-ID: <5603457D.2070703 at update.uu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed On 2015-09-24 01:15, Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 21/09/15 14:15, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: tony duell >> >> > In some cases it should be possible to write a machine code >> program >> > that executes on 2 processors with wildly different instruciton >> sets. >> >> I have this bit set that I was told (or something, the memory is _very_ >> vague) that early versions of the KL-10 had this hack; the root block >> on the >> disk was the boot block both the PDP-10 and the PDP-11 front end >> machine, and >> the first instruction or two was very cleverly construced and sent the >> two >> machines different ways. Alas, I looked in the front-end PDP-11 code >> (in the >> KLDCP; directory) and saw no signs of this, so maybe it was an urban >> legend? >> >> > > I can't find a definitive reference right now, but I *think* that the > ODS-1 disk format > was first used on the PDP-11 and then later used in early versions of > VMS. I *think* > that it was arranged such that a PDP-11 booting and a VMS system booting > could > be done from the same disk by arranging for each to interpret the boot > block in > a way that each was happy with. I think that is incorrect, since early VMS didn't havea boot block. The VAX-11/780 was always booted from the PDP-11, and it started with VMB. VMB was gotten from the FE, and VMB in turn understood the file system. It wasn't until the VAX-11/750 that DEC did a VAX that used boot blocks. And then, of course, the boot block is just the first block(s) on the disk. Don't matter what file system you might have... Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol ------------------------------ Message: 28 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:52:23 -0700 From: Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: DDS SETASI SC44 info? Message-ID: <56034947.1090007 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed FYI, I've thrown up a couple of (cell phone) photos of the SC44 boards here: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/sc44/ I'll have the machine home in a few days and I'll be able to take better pictures then... - Josh On 9/23/15 2:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I just added a PDP-11/44 to my collection and it appears to have some > manner of cache upgrade; it's made by Digital Data Systems (DDS) and > consists of two cards, one hex-height labeled "SC44 SETASI" (in the > place of the normal 11/44 cache board) and a second quad-height > labeled "1051" at the end of the first backplane. The two are > connected via a ribbon cable. > > I know DDS made some seriously nice upgrades for the 11/70 but I can't > find anything on this board set at all. I'm assuming it's just a > souped-up cache but it'd be nice to know more (and docs would be > excellent of course). > > Thanks, > Josh ------------------------------ Message: 29 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 20:54:53 -0400 From: Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus Message-ID: <5209997D-E793-43B2-BC93-502F921078E3 at comcast.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Sep 23, 2015, at 7:24 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > > ... > The C macro facility barely qualifies as such. PL/I had a wonderful > preprocessor; That depends on the compiler. I remember the PL/C compiler (from Cornell, running on IBM 370s). In graduate school, we were forced to use it because the instructor was also the main author of that compiler. It was used in a compiler construction class, with heavy use of macros. That seemed fine except for one fatal flaw in the macro engine design. PL/I has the notion of "source margins" -- source code is only processed between colums 2 and 72 (by default; those limits are settable). The fatal flaw was that the PL/C macro processor sat before the source margin machinery, so it had to obey the source margins in doing macro expansion. Unfortunately, it couldn't do that. A typical result of attempting to use a complex macro was a compiler crash. To cure it, you'd add or remove spaces >from the macro call and/or the macro definition -- at which point you'd get a crash or compiler infinite loop at some other macro call. After a few weeks of that, we convinced the instructor to drop this bogus piece of software and switch to a real compiler -- Pascal on the PDP-10. paul ------------------------------ Message: 30 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:06:23 -0700 From: Zane Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info? Message-ID: <032919E9-8EAB-4E9E-9E73-7CB2DD29A25C at aracnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sam Ismail used to have a DPS-6, if not more than one, but I don't think he was ever able to do anything with it. Does it have GCOS-6 installed? I worked on DPS-8's and GCOS-8 a lifetime ago. I did a little with GCOS-6, mainly assisting with moving operations from DPS-6 Mini's over to HP 9000 workstations running DPS-6 emulators. I never had any GCOS-6 doc's and my GCOS-8 doc's were sent North a couple years ago. Zane On Sep 23, 2015, at 2:44 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote: > Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside > workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this > model > (a badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732"). I can take > some detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up > (it's very, very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit > pictured on this site: > http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm > > Anyone have any docs on this thing? Or fun anecdotes to share? What have > I gotten myself into with this thing? > > Thanks, > Josh ------------------------------ Message: 31 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 21:24:04 -0400 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info? Message-ID: <384aea.543ed142.4334aab4 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" there was a nightmare! In a message dated 9/23/2015 6:20:18 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, healyzh at aracnet.com writes: Sam Ismail used to have a DPS-6, if not more than one ------------------------------ Message: 32 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 18:27:03 -0700 From: Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: ISO: FP11-F (M7093) for PDP-11/44 Message-ID: <56035167.3030403 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed The 11/44 I acquired recently has a complete CPU set but no FP11-F board (M7093). I'd like to be able to run 2.11BSD (or other UNIX) on this machine, so having floating point hardware is pretty essential -- anyone have one going spare for sale/trade? Thanks as always, Josh ------------------------------ Message: 33 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 20:29:34 -0500 From: Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: ISO: FP11-F (M7093) for PDP-11/44 Message-ID: <CACwhfuMWaZe_O=_rmZdOXJ3ufJiSpsvUKfQq86WeuvQ50H9wrg at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I've got some here. Let me find it later tonight or tomorrow and I'll contact you off list. Paul On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 8:27 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote: > The 11/44 I acquired recently has a complete CPU set but no FP11-F board > (M7093). I'd like to be able to run 2.11BSD (or other UNIX) on this > machine, so having floating point hardware is pretty essential -- anyone > have one going spare for sale/trade? > > Thanks as always, > Josh > > ------------------------------ Message: 34 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 21:48:59 -0400 From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: The desk has arrived - WAS: Somewhat OT: Freighting Items Message-ID: <20150924014858.GZ30683 at ns1.bonedaddy.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii * Ali <cctalk at fahimi.net> [150921 17:24]: > Well, > > In case anyone is still interested the desk arrived on Friday. The seller > did a very good job of packing it and it arrived in tact. Thanks to > everyone > for their input, tips, and bits of wisdom. BTW: If anyone is interested > you > can check out some quick pictures here: > > http://megacube.classiccmp.org/Synergetix/Synergetix.html > > The web page is very rudimentary and will be expanded. Once I get it > cleaned > up it will house an IBM 5150 A, a 5151, a 5152-002 and a Cipher 5120. > > -Ali Nice! Glad it arrived OK and was packed well by the seller! Todd ------------------------------ Message: 35 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 22:05:00 -0400 From: "Mike Stein" <mhs.stein at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor? Message-ID: <D3E2DA8EFD034FC0B7CCD646F6CEE07B at 310e2> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original 68xx system, unusual (in my experience) 40-pin single row header bus. Anyone recognize it? https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jRSv5KbuziQ/VgNYaQ5j1gI/AAAAAAAAAXY/A5k2… ------------------------------ Message: 36 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 19:42:42 -0700 From: steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info? Message-ID: <56036322.4010901 at att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed On 9/23/2015 2:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside > workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this > model > (a badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732"). I can take > some detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up > (it's very, very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit > pictured on this site: > http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm > > Anyone have any docs on this thing? Or fun anecdotes to share? What have > I gotten myself into with this thing? > > Thanks, > Josh > > browse here and elsewhere for WWMMCCS history and beginnings of GCOS/DPS-6/Honeywell 6000 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Military_Command_and_Control_System One legend that gets trotted out whenever you speak of WWMMCCS is the cookie monster that was on terminals in the Pentagon installation of WWMMCCS. As the legend goes, at random intervals, the console would go blank, operators would loose control and a message would display something to the effect "cookie monster hungry - feed me". Supposedly once you typed in one of several cookie names, the routine would release the system back to the operator. I personally know a retired AF IT manager who worked WWMMCCS and swears its a true story... Suspect you will find very little material other than what Al has - it wasn't a particularly common installed setup. Steve ------------------------------ Message: 37 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 20:00:46 -0700 From: Zane Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info? Message-ID: <7F9F16AF-2C5D-477C-9EA9-700E1D517C34 at aracnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Sep 23, 2015, at 7:42 PM, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net> wrote: > On 9/23/2015 2:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside >> workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this >> model >> (a badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732"). I can take >> some detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up >> (it's very, very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit >> pictured on this site: >> http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm >> >> Anyone have any docs on this thing? Or fun anecdotes to share? What >> have >> I gotten myself into with this thing? >> >> Thanks, >> Josh >> >> > browse here and elsewhere for WWMMCCS history and beginnings of > GCOS/DPS-6/Honeywell 6000 > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Military_Command_and_Control_System > > > One legend that gets trotted out whenever you speak of WWMMCCS is the > cookie monster that was on terminals in the Pentagon installation of > WWMMCCS. As the legend goes, at random intervals, the console would go > blank, operators would loose control and a message would display something > to the effect "cookie monster hungry - feed me". Supposedly once you > typed in one of several cookie names, the routine would release the system > back to the operator. I personally know a retired AF IT manager who > worked WWMMCCS and swears its a true story... > > Suspect you will find very little material other than what Al has - it > wasn't a particularly common installed setup. > > Steve > DPS-8's, not 6's, and I for one don't believe that legend. Zane ------------------------------ Message: 38 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 20:03:47 -0700 From: Charles Anthony <charles.unix.pro at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info? Message-ID: <CANV78LRbu0e8K4-BPtacmdFdN6v--Nf9qdeNWu7vRtmpcngaLQ at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 8:00 PM, Zane Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > > On Sep 23, 2015, at 7:42 PM, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net> wrote: > > > One legend that gets trotted out whenever you speak of WWMMCCS is the > cookie monster that was on terminals in the Pentagon installation of > WWMMCCS. As the legend goes, at random intervals, the console would go > blank, operators would loose control and a message would display something > to the effect "cookie monster hungry - feed me". Supposedly once you > typed in one of several cookie names, the routine would release the system > back to the operator. I personally know a retired AF IT manager who > worked WWMMCCS and swears its a true story... > > > > Suspect you will find very little material other than what Al has - it > wasn't a particularly common installed setup. > > > > Steve > > > > DPS-8's, not 6's, and I for one don't believe that legend. > > I don't know about the legend, but the cookie program originated on the DPS-8: http://www.multicians.org/cookie.html -- Charles ------------------------------ Message: 39 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 20:04:36 -0700 From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus Message-ID: <56036844.8040006 at sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed On 09/23/2015 05:54 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Sep 23, 2015, at 7:24 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: >> >> ... >> The C macro facility barely qualifies as such. PL/I had a wonderful >> preprocessor; > > That depends on the compiler. Well, IBM did have a real PL/I compiler (after all, they invented the stuff)--and later, there was an ANSI PL/I. --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 40 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 15:43:37 +1200 From: Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor? Message-ID: <CAPhLQbMwe7CEQ8NY+G=DQ40mT9UV+4g406S=93jDVEXLS+xWOg at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 That's odd. I can't say for sure but... it has the feel of something that might have belonged in a terminal or keyboard... character generator or something... stab in the dark really. Mike On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote: > 68xx system, unusual (in my experience) 40-pin > single row header bus. > > Anyone recognize it? > > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jRSv5KbuziQ/VgNYaQ5j1gI/AAAAAAAAAXY/A5k2… > -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' ------------------------------ Message: 41 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 22:53:43 -0500 From: Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor? Message-ID: <CAA3rs22vN79V_-NnipY=nL0AQZiu7pJH-1k+=vs-4q3ZTC2Zqw at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 heathkit? On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:43 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote: > That's odd. > > I can't say for sure but... it has the feel of something that might > have belonged in a terminal or keyboard... character generator or > something... stab in the dark really. > > Mike > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote: > > 68xx system, unusual (in my experience) 40-pin > > single row header bus. > > > > Anyone recognize it? > > > > > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jRSv5KbuziQ/VgNYaQ5j1gI/AAAAAAAAAXY/A5k2… > > > > > > -- > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > ------------------------------ Message: 42 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 23:22:59 -0600 From: Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus Message-ID: <CAFrGgTQ8=KQ5+DWXqj_SstbnH3Pj6xRFSd-BHe4yFd=gghOUag at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote: > An int just has to be able to store numbers of a certain magnitude. > Same with long. You do have to be able to convert between longs (and > possibly ints) and addresses (*). So, you make an int 5 digits (which > matches the natural length of addresses) and longs something like 10 > digits. You don't have to simulate anything, near as I can tell. Then > the length of an int is 5 and a long is 10 (instead of the more typical > 2 and 4). And the length of a char? It's required that all types other than bitfields be fully represented as multiple chars, not e.g. an int being two and a half chars, and a char has to cover at least the range 0..255, or -128..127, and it has to have a range based on a power of two. ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.6 ?1 - a byte has to hold any member of the basic character set ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.7.1 ?1 - a character is a C bit representation that fits in a byte ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?5.2.4.2.1 ?1 - the size of a char is CHAR_BIT bits, which is at least 8 ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?2-4 - everything other than bitfields consists of bytes ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?5 - Some data types other than char may have machine representations that can't use all of the possible bit patterns of the storage allocated; those representations are called "trap representations". The char (and unsigned char) types can't have trap representations. ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?1 - unsigned integer types must have a range of 0 to (2^n)-1, for some natural number n. ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?2 - signed integer types must have a range of -(2^n) to (2^n)-1 or -((2^n)-1) to (2^n)-1. On a decimal machine, if you use three digits for a char, you have to arrange that all your other types are multiples of three digits, with each three-digit group only using valid char representations, because accessing a char/byte out of a larger integer type is not allowed to be a trap representation, because chars can't have a trap representation. If an unsigned char is three digits with values from 0..255, an unsigned int can't be five digits. It has to be six digits, and the only valid representations for it would have values of 0..65535. It can't have any valid values in the range of 65536..999999. ------------------------------ Message: 43 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 01:23:11 -0400 From: william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor? Message-ID: <CABGJBuegdj6gxxuh=pfqmUkvKgvuPO-O67x-JkeMkgqJKeqpYw at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Looks like an add on or daughter board. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Sep 23, 2015 11:53 PM, "Adrian Stoness" <tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote: > heathkit? > > On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:43 PM, Mike Ross <tmfdmike at gmail.com> wrote: > > > That's odd. > > > > I can't say for sure but... it has the feel of something that might > > have belonged in a terminal or keyboard... character generator or > > something... stab in the dark really. > > > > Mike > > > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote: > > > 68xx system, unusual (in my experience) 40-pin > > > single row header bus. > > > > > > Anyone recognize it? > > > > > > > > > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jRSv5KbuziQ/VgNYaQ5j1gI/AAAAAAAAAXY/A5k2… > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > http://www.corestore.org > > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. > > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' > > > ------------------------------ Message: 44 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:52:39 -0400 From: Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> Subject: Re: DDS SETASI SC44 info? Message-ID: <CAA43vkUFNLHRw1sbw_0hrqJpHdq0xyUcTJC_s+W5YS+=b11nGQ at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Any easy way to post pics of the top side of both boards? I can't definitively ID them but we should be able to make a good guess as to what's actually on there looking at all the major ICs... Did you just buy this? :O http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/PDP%2011-44/Information Best, Sean On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote: > Hi all -- > > I just added a PDP-11/44 to my collection and it appears to have some > manner of cache upgrade; it's made by Digital Data Systems (DDS) and > consists of two cards, one hex-height labeled "SC44 SETASI" (in the place > of the normal 11/44 cache board) and a second quad-height labeled "1051" > at > the end of the first backplane. The two are connected via a ribbon cable. > > I know DDS made some seriously nice upgrades for the 11/70 but I can't > find > anything on this board set at all. I'm assuming it's just a souped-up > cache but it'd be nice to know more (and docs would be excellent of > course). > > Thanks, > Josh > ------------------------------ Message: 45 Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 17:56:07 -0400 From: Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>, Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info? Message-ID: <CAA43vkWd1NHC3=t6xtVOb8fg7dc1qxOO2ySh_=h1zr21-eRVnw at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Ah, so these are the vintagetech.com machines! Please take lots of pics of the DPS-8 inside and out; I've never really seen the innards of a Honeywell machine before and I'm kind of curious what their "style" looks like. Best, Sean On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Dave G4UGM <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote: > Many years ago we used them as Data Entry machines, but I have no > documents and have forgotten everything I knew. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh > > Dersch > > Sent: 23 September 2015 22:45 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > Subject: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info? > > > > Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside > > workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this > model (a > > badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732"). I can take > some > > detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up > (it's very, > > very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit pictured on > this site: > > http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm > > > > Anyone have any docs on this thing? Or fun anecdotes to share? What > have > > I gotten myself into with this thing? > > > > Thanks, > > Josh > > ------------------------------ Message: 46 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:18:03 +1000 From: steven at malikoff.com To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" <cctech at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database design? Message-ID: <38f04b0e735cffb635b13834dcaee682.squirrel at webmail04.register.com> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=utf-8 Not sure why you have VARCHARs for primary keys, why not use the conventional auto-increment int so you can dispense with the LastGeneratedArtifactID table. CREATE TABLE Manual_Artifact ( ArtifactID INT(11) NOT NULL AUTO_INCREMENT, . . . other fields . . . CONSTRAINT ArtifactID_pk PRIMARY KEY (ArtifactID) ) You'll also need similar type primary keys on your other tables, and also set up the foreign key constraints for your db integrity if you really want to go that far for this project. Some of those tables could be coalesced to simplify the thing - as per the inane comment from the guy in Holland (or wherever) for instance the Location and Manual_Type tables. Another thing, although MySQL is fine but for this I think SQLite might be a better choice of db. Its access methods are all in-process ie. no external dbms service to bother with, just a library to link in and the physical database is a disk file (.s3db extension). It has a much 'lighter' db footprint. Steve. ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: Thoughts on manual database design? From: "Jay Jaeger" <cube1 at charter.net> Date: Thu, September 24, 2015 6:52 am To: cctech at classiccmp.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > If anyone cares a draft data model is visible at: > > http://webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection/misc/manualmodel.pdf > > (It may change as I work on the design). > > Biggest change from earlier discussions: I found no reason not to merge > the manuals/artifacts relationship table into the artifact table, and I > reduced the primary key columns down to only those absolutely necessary > to guarantee uniqueness. > > JRJ > > ------------------------------ Message: 47 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 08:39:17 +0200 From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: DDS SETASI SC44 info? Message-ID: <20150924063916.GA32087 at Update.UU.SE> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii archive.org almost has some info: http://web.archive.org/web/19990908232518/http://www.setasi.com/DECPP.html It's a "Super Cache". Perhaps you could track down someone from Setasi? See the mention here: ftp://ftp.dbit.com/pub/pdp11/faq/faq.pages/vendors.html /P On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 02:40:14PM -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I just added a PDP-11/44 to my collection and it appears to have some > manner of cache upgrade; it's made by Digital Data Systems (DDS) and > consists of two cards, one hex-height labeled "SC44 SETASI" (in the place > of the normal 11/44 cache board) and a second quad-height labeled "1051" > at > the end of the first backplane. The two are connected via a ribbon cable. > > I know DDS made some seriously nice upgrades for the 11/70 but I can't > find > anything on this board set at all. I'm assuming it's just a souped-up > cache but it'd be nice to know more (and docs would be excellent of > course). > > Thanks, > Josh ------------------------------ Message: 48 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 00:02:56 -0700 From: Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: DDS SETASI SC44 info? Message-ID: <5603A020.1060000 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed On 9/23/15 2:52 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Any easy way to post pics of the top side of both boards? I can't > definitively ID them but we should be able to make a good guess as to > what's actually on there looking at all the major ICs... Yeah, I took some pictures this afternoon (a bit blurry -- it was dark and all I had was my cell phone, I'll try to get better pics tomorrow): http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/sc44/ > > Did you just buy this? :O > > http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/PDP%2011-44/Information Yep :). - Josh > > Best, > > Sean > > > On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Hi all -- >> >> I just added a PDP-11/44 to my collection and it appears to have some >> manner of cache upgrade; it's made by Digital Data Systems (DDS) and >> consists of two cards, one hex-height labeled "SC44 SETASI" (in the place >> of the normal 11/44 cache board) and a second quad-height labeled "1051" >> at >> the end of the first backplane. The two are connected via a ribbon >> cable. >> >> I know DDS made some seriously nice upgrades for the 11/70 but I can't >> find >> anything on this board set at all. I'm assuming it's just a souped-up >> cache but it'd be nice to know more (and docs would be excellent of >> course). >> >> Thanks, >> Josh >> ------------------------------ Message: 49 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 01:04:59 -0600 From: ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus Message-ID: <5603A09B.3050706 at jetnet.ab.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed On 9/23/2015 11:22 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.6 ?1 - a byte has to hold any member of the > basic character set > ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.7.1 ?1 - a character is a C bit representation > that fits in a byte > ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?5.2.4.2.1 ?1 - the size of a char is CHAR_BIT > bits, which is at least 8 > ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?2-4 - everything other than bitfields > consists of bytes Bla Bla Bla ... What happened to seven bit ASCII? I think the major change in C from the OTHER programing languages is BYTE addressing. Even Pascal from what I have seen packs characters in words of some kind. That is main dividing line in how memory can be accessed. char *ptr++ vs array(foo-1) 0-99 can hold a trimmed character set and 10 digits per int. 5 chars per word sounds right on decimal machine. Logic operations would be on the digit rather the binary level. This may not be standard C but I has the early PDP 11 C feel if they I developed UNIX on decimal machine. Ben. ------------------------------ Message: 50 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 00:10:32 -0700 From: Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info? Message-ID: <5603A1E8.3060903 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed On 9/23/15 2:56 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Ah, so these are the vintagetech.com machines! Please take lots of pics of > the DPS-8 inside and out; I've never really seen the innards of a > Honeywell > machine before and I'm kind of curious what their "style" looks like. > > Best, > > Sean Will do. I took the boards out to inspect them tonight (they had rattled about a bit during shipment) and everything seems ok. I'll have time to take some pictures this weekend. Unfortunately, somewhere along the line someone disconnected nearly all the ribbon cables running to the boards and I've got no idea what goes where (only a couple are cohesively labeled.) This thing is going to be a project. - Josh ------------------------------ Message: 51 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 03:53:58 -0400 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info? Message-ID: <a1cb0.44c5458a.43350616 at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" is it a dps 6 or 8? In a message dated 9/24/2015 12:10:41 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, derschjo at gmail.com writes: On 9/23/15 2:56 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Ah, so these are the vintagetech.com machines! Please take lots of pics of > the DPS-8 inside and out; I've never really seen the innards of a Honeywell > machine before and I'm kind of curious what their "style" looks like. > > Best, > > Sean Will do. I took the boards out to inspect them tonight (they had rattled about a bit during shipment) and everything seems ok. I'll have time to take some pictures this weekend. Unfortunately, somewhere along the line someone disconnected nearly all the ribbon cables running to the boards and I've got no idea what goes where (only a couple are cohesively labeled.) This thing is going to be a project. - Josh ------------------------------ Message: 52 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:20:02 +0100 From: "Dave G4UGM" <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: RE: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info? Message-ID: <084601d0f6aa$3209f150$961dd3f0$(a)gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" The DPS6 is a very different animal to the GE600 -> GE6000 > Level 66 => DPS300 which were as far as I know all TTL or LSI TTL.... ... The CPU was built on wire wrap boards which were around 14" or 16" square (say 35cm) and which slotted into a backplane. .. the machines had an extensive test suite which the CE ran weekly. This could vary the voltages to the logic chips.... .. when a faulty board was found they were usually repaired on-site, there was a board tester shipped with each system to identify chip level faults. .. this contrasts with the earlier H3200 we had which was fixed by board level repair.. The CPU and Memory were in separate cabinets, much like the 360/67 but Honeywell kept the same layout when moving from core (I think the GE6000/H6000 were core) on to D-Ram in the L66. The CPU number and I think the RAM start addresses were all configured on switchs, so it was possible to split a Dual CPU machine into two singles for testing. The peripherals came from MPI a joint venture with CDC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_Data_Corporation#Magnetic_Peripherals…. There are more ramblings, (not from me) here:- http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/english/gecos_to_gcos8_part_2.htm The GCOS-3 Control Cards and Abort Codes Pocket Guide DD04 Rev.0 is sat on my desk in the scanning queue... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh > Dersch > Sent: 24 September 2015 08:11 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info? > > On 9/23/15 2:56 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > > Ah, so these are the vintagetech.com machines! Please take lots of > > pics of the DPS-8 inside and out; I've never really seen the innards > > of a Honeywell machine before and I'm kind of curious what their "style" > looks like. > > > > Best, > > > > Sean > > Will do. I took the boards out to inspect them tonight (they had rattled > about > a bit during shipment) and everything seems ok. I'll have time to take > some > pictures this weekend. Unfortunately, somewhere along the line someone > disconnected nearly all the ribbon cables running to the boards and I've > got > no idea what goes where (only a couple are cohesively labeled.) This > thing is > going to be a project. > > - Josh > ------------------------------ Message: 53 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:41:35 +0200 From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Regarding Manuals Message-ID: <20150924094135.GB32087 at Update.UU.SE> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi I have more manuals than I really have room for. Lots and lots of VMS binders and softcover books. And now my employer is throwing out box upon box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature. I'm trying to save what I think is useful and/or worth preserving. But It's damn hard to decide and damn hard to motivate filling up every inch of precious space. At the moment I thinking about just looking the other way and throw what is not directly useful to me. What is a collector/hoarder to do? Anyone who wants to turn up with a truck and fill with dead trees? Regards, Pontus. ------------------------------ Message: 54 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 19:44:23 +1000 From: Nigel Williams <nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com> To: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Regarding Manuals Message-ID: <F0214D71-4B97-4CF9-9A8A-CD39406E25FE at retrocomputingtasmania.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On 24 Sep 2015, at 7:41 pm, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> wrote: > ...And now my employer is throwing out box > upon box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature. Is it practical/possible to make a list of what is available and to crowd-source out to the cctalk community to check whether copies exist online or due for scanning? that might cut down the volume worth keeping. ------------------------------ Message: 55 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:51:54 +0200 From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Regarding Manuals Message-ID: <20150924095154.GA9183 at Update.UU.SE> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 07:44:23PM +1000, Nigel Williams wrote: > > > On 24 Sep 2015, at 7:41 pm, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> wrote: > > ...And now my employer is throwing out box > > upon box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature. > > Is it practical/possible to make a list of what is available and to > crowd-source out to the cctalk community to check whether copies exist > online or due for scanning? that might cut down the volume worth > keeping. It would be a lot of work. For the VMS stuff I have started indexing. I suppose I should run the list through manx at least. Having an automatic tool for that is tempting to make. /P ------------------------------ Message: 56 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 12:16:06 +0200 From: "Mazzini Alessandro" <mazzinia at tin.it> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: R: Regarding Manuals Message-ID: <006001d0f6b2$06a4f570$13eee050$(a)tin.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Crying at the prospect of the waste :( (from someone that had the chance of saving just a set of X-Open manuals) -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Pontus Pihlgren Inviato: gioved? 24 settembre 2015 11:42 A: cctalk at classiccmp.org Oggetto: Regarding Manuals Hi I have more manuals than I really have room for. Lots and lots of VMS binders and softcover books. And now my employer is throwing out box upon box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature. I'm trying to save what I think is useful and/or worth preserving. But It's damn hard to decide and damn hard to motivate filling up every inch of precious space. At the moment I thinking about just looking the other way and throw what is not directly useful to me. What is a collector/hoarder to do? Anyone who wants to turn up with a truck and fill with dead trees? Regards, Pontus. ------------------------------ Message: 57 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 07:10:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: C out of its comfort zone - Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code Message-ID: <201509241110.HAA04206 at Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Well, there are plenty of word-but-not-byte/character addressable > machines out there, which makes life interesting for the likes of C. C is able to support them just fine, though a whole lot of C code isn't (beacuse it assumes things like "all pointers are the same size", or even more specifically, "all pointers are just memory addresses"). Such machines typically just have void * and char * occupying more space than pointers to word-and-larger types. > One thing that I've wondered about is "does the current HLL-du-juor > dictate processor architecture?"--and not the reverse. Dictate, probably not quite. Influence, certainly. > Does anyone consider a machine that doesn't implement any sort of > hardware stack, for example, a marketplace contender? I don't, for the simple reason that I don't know of any that aren't, by today's standards, ludicrously slow. If a hypothetical machine were to be released that didn't have stack support of some sort in hardware (even if just autodecrement and autoincrement addressing modes - for example, the Super-H)? I'd want to know what it had that made its maker think it worth making despite that. However, I have trouble imagining a machine on which it is difficult to implement a stack. Even the machines of old which "didn't have stacks" generally had (what we would today call) addressing modes that made it possible to implement them without too much pain. (What they usually didn't have was an easy way to get procedure call return addresses onto the stack, like one I remember hearing of whose call instruction stored the return address just before the beginning of the called procedure. While I don't know any such machines well enough to be sure, I would imagine a return stack could be maintained there by slightly complicating the procedurecall and return sequences - in this crowd, I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong! :-) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B ------------------------------ Message: 58 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 05:35:54 -0700 From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Regarding Manuals Message-ID: <5603EE2A.8020308 at bitsavers.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed On 9/24/15 2:41 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > I have more manuals than I really have room for. Lots and lots of VMS > binders and softcover books. And now my employer is throwing out box > upon box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature. > I'd like to get a set of SunOS 1.x manuals to fill out what I just uploaded to bitsavers, and any manuals for SunOS layered products that I haven't already uploaded. Hoping they still had manuals that old. ------------------------------ Message: 59 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 14:53:15 +0200 From: Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Regarding Manuals Message-ID: <20150924125315.GC9183 at Update.UU.SE> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 05:35:54AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/24/15 2:41 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >Hi > > > >I have more manuals than I really have room for. Lots and lots of VMS > >binders and softcover books. And now my employer is throwing out box > >upon box of SUN, Ultrix, tru64 and various literature. > > > > I'd like to get a set of SunOS 1.x manuals to fill out what I just > uploaded to bitsavers, and any manuals for SunOS layered products > that > I haven't already uploaded. Hoping they still had manuals that old. > I think the oldest I have seen from Sun is from 1987 or 88. Is that old enough? /P ------------------------------ Message: 60 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:16:20 -0400 From: Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus Message-ID: <5603F7A4.60808 at telegraphics.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed On 2015-09-24 3:04 AM, ben wrote: > On 9/23/2015 11:22 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.6 ?1 - a byte has to hold any member of the >> basic character set >> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.7.1 ?1 - a character is a C bit representation >> that fits in a byte >> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?5.2.4.2.1 ?1 - the size of a char is CHAR_BIT >> bits, which is at least 8 >> ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?2-4 - everything other than bitfields >> consists of bytes > > Bla Bla Bla ... > What happened to seven bit ASCII? > I think the major change in C from the OTHER programing languages > is BYTE addressing. Even Pascal from what I have seen packs characters > in words of some kind. That is main dividing line in how memory > can be accessed. char *ptr++ vs array(foo-1) Depends on the Pascal. Apple chose (Object) Pascal as its principal systems and applications programming language for at least a decade (Lisa, 68K Mac, etc), and its memory addressing capabilities, in particular byte arrays, were equivalent to C's. Many other Pascals had similar extensions (I seem to recall Turbo Pascal did). --Toby > > 0-99 can hold a trimmed character set and 10 digits per int. > 5 chars per word sounds right on decimal machine. > Logic operations would be on the digit rather the binary > level. This may not be standard C but I has the early > PDP 11 C feel if they I developed UNIX on decimal machine. > > Ben. > > > > > > ------------------------------ Message: 61 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:06:51 -0400 From: "Mike Stein" <mhs.stein at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor? Message-ID: <D3A61F3A56BA41069507A1E2A18B491F at 310e2> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="UTF-8"; reply-type=original Found a few more boards; I guess the displays, optocouplers and surge suppressors suggest an industrial system of some sort, perhaps custom or limited production. Wonder why that type of connector wasn't used more often for a bus instead of presumably more expensive edge connectors; I think I do have some (CDC?) boards that are the opposite, i.e. pins plugging into sockets on the backplane. https://picasaweb.google.com/115794482077177620188/Mystery68xxCards?authkey… ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ross" <tmfdmike at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Wednesday, September 23, 2015 11:43 PM Subject: Re: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor? > That's odd. > > I can't say for sure but... it has the feel of > something that might > have belonged in a terminal or keyboard... > character generator or > something... stab in the dark really. > > Mike > > On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike Stein > <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote: >> 68xx system, unusual (in my experience) 40-pin >> single row header bus. >> >> Anyone recognize it? >> >> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-jRSv5KbuziQ/VgNYaQ5j1gI/AAAAAAAAAXY/A5k2… >> > > > > -- > > http://www.corestore.org > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his > life for his brother. > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. > For one person, in the dark, where no one will > ever know or see.' ------------------------------ Message: 62 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:00:47 -0500 From: Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus Message-ID: <5604101F.2090207 at charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 9/24/2015 12:22 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 8:30 AM, Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> wrote: >> An int just has to be able to store numbers of a certain magnitude. >> Same with long. You do have to be able to convert between longs (and >> possibly ints) and addresses (*). So, you make an int 5 digits (which >> matches the natural length of addresses) and longs something like 10 >> digits. You don't have to simulate anything, near as I can tell. Then >> the length of an int is 5 and a long is 10 (instead of the more typical >> 2 and 4). > > And the length of a char? It's required that all types other than > bitfields be fully represented as multiple chars, not e.g. an int > being two and a half chars, and a char has to cover at least the range > 0..255, or -128..127, and it has to have a range based on a power of > two. > > ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.6 ?1 - a byte has to hold any member of the > basic character set > ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.7.1 ?1 - a character is a C bit representation > that fits in a byte > ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?5.2.4.2.1 ?1 - the size of a char is CHAR_BIT > bits, which is at least 8 > ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?2-4 - everything other than bitfields > consists of bytes > > ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?5 - Some data types other than char may > have machine representations that can't use all of the possible bit > patterns of the storage allocated; those representations are called > "trap representations". The char (and unsigned char) types can't have > trap representations. > > ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?1 - unsigned integer types must have a > range of 0 to (2^n)-1, for some natural number n. > ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?2 - signed integer types must have a > range of -(2^n) to (2^n)-1 or -((2^n)-1) to (2^n)-1. > > On a decimal machine, if you use three digits for a char, you have to > arrange that all your other types are multiples of three digits, with > each three-digit group only using valid char representations, because > accessing a char/byte out of a larger integer type is not allowed to > be a trap representation, because chars can't have a trap > representation. I don't *have* to do any such thing. > > If an unsigned char is three digits with values from 0..255, an > unsigned int can't be five digits. It has to be six digits, and the > only valid representations for it would have values of 0..65535. It > can't have any valid values in the range of 65536..999999. > It does not *have* to be six digits. You seem to be supposing that I said one could/would implement ANSI/ISO C on a 1410 in native code (as opposed to some kind of binary threaded-code simulator that has been suggested). I did not. I said C, and by that I meant something presumably contemporary with the machine in its last years. I would not suggest that one would implement ANSI/ISO C on such a machine, any more than I would expect to implement current versions of FORTRAN on such a machine. Heck, there wasn't even a FORTRAN IV for the 1410. I would expect a char to be 6 or 7 bits on a 1410 - one storage character, rather than 8 (one could conceivably use the word-mark for a char bit to get 7 bits, and it would make some sense to do so, but if abused (say, by accessing an int as char [5]) could result in a wordmark in the middle of an int, which it would be good to avoid if at all possible to avoid having to move integer types to an intermediate storage location using record marks to terminate the move rather than wordmarks). An int would be 5 characters long. If one goes back to the definition of C in "The C Programming Language", then one sees a less restrictive specification the the contemporary ANSI/ISO specification. The restrictions of ANSI/ISO C came later because of things that folks tended to assume and do in their C programs because of the hardware it typically ran on, i.e., that chars were capable of holding 8 bit binary numbers. "Objects declared as characters (char) are large enough to store any member of the implementation's character set, and if a genuine character >from that character set is stored in a character variable, its *value* is *equivalent* to the integer code for that character. Other values may be stored into character variables, but the implementation is machine-dependent." (asterisk emphasis added). "Equivalent" is extremely important here, as it frees one from the notion of it having to be the exact same bit representation. It means that if you cast from char to int (access it as a value), or pass a char as a formal parameter, the int gets the value of the character as a set of bits, and vice versa. It does NOT require that the int be the *identical* bits as the char. Common practice is, of course, to use chars to store small, but still useful, integer values, in this case, -32 to +31 (6 bits) or -64 to +63 (7 bits)). Would this break some programs that assume a char can hold values from -127 to 127? Of course. Would those programs be "fixable" to the extent that they were not dependent upon machine I/O hardware and the like? Yes, they should be. ""Plain" integers have the natural size suggested by the host machine architecture". Thus one would end up with a C char type which is only slightly different from FORTRAN CHARACTER variables, but which can still store small integer values in the spirit of C. Enough already. JRJ ------------------------------ Message: 63 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:11:16 -0500 From: Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus Message-ID: <56041294.1060803 at charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On 9/24/2015 2:04 AM, ben wrote: > On 9/23/2015 11:22 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > 0-99 can hold a trimmed character set and 10 digits per int. > 5 chars per word sounds right on decimal machine. > Logic operations would be on the digit rather the binary > level. On a 1410 (or 1401) 0-63 can hold the entire character set using char/int conversion instead of storing chars as their native bits, and then we have 5 digits per int as the native integer size (size of an address). 0-127 would be required to hold a character with a work mark bit, which I think one would probably want to make available at a character level, but try and avoid having them set inside of ints. Also, on a 1410 or a 1401 with the right optional features, bitwise operations (bitwise &^|) could still be carried out on a binary level without undue difficulty. As you say, logic operations (&&, ||) would presumably use int 0 and 1 - but could still be carried out on a binary level. >This may not be standard C but I has the early > PDP 11 C feel if they I developed UNIX on decimal machine. > > Ben. > Precisely. JRJ ------------------------------ Message: 64 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 10:23:55 -0500 From: Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Anyone recognize this bus/form factor? Message-ID: <20150924152355.GQ4403 at n0jcf.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Thursday (09/24/2015 at 10:06AM -0400), Mike Stein wrote: > Found a few more boards; I guess the displays, optocouplers and surge > suppressors suggest an industrial system of some sort, perhaps custom or > limited production. > > Wonder why that type of connector wasn't used more often for a bus instead > of presumably more expensive edge connectors; I think I do have some > (CDC?) > boards that are the opposite, i.e. pins plugging into sockets on the > backplane. > > https://picasaweb.google.com/115794482077177620188/Mystery68xxCards?authkey… Those are the same connectors used on the Heathkit H8 and H89 backplanes but those are definitely not cards that plug into the backplane of either of those machines. Chris -- Chris Elmquist ------------------------------ Message: 65 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:06:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509240856460.309 at shell.lmi.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed On Wed, 23 Sep 2015, Eric Smith wrote: > And the length of a char? It's required that all types other than > bitfields be fully represented as multiple chars, not e.g. an int > being two and a half chars, and a char has to cover at least the range > 0..255, or -128..127, and it has to have a range based on a power of > two. > ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.6 ?1 . . . > ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?3.7.1 ?1 . . . > ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?5.2.4.2.1 ?1 . . . > ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?2-4 - everything other than bitfields > consists of bytes > ISO/IEC 9899:1999(E) ?6.2.6.1 ?5 - Some data types other than char may > ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?1 - unsigned integer types must have a > ISO/IEC 9899:199(E) ?6.2.6.2 ?2 - signed integer types must have a > On a decimal machine, if you use three digits for a char, you have to > arrange that all your other types are multiples of three digits, with > each three-digit group only using valid char representations, because > accessing a char/byte out of a larger integer type is not allowed to > be a trap representation, because chars can't have a trap > representation. > If an unsigned char is three digits with values from 0..255, an > unsigned int can't be five digits. It has to be six digits, and the > only valid representations for it would have values of 0..65535. It > can't have any valid values in the range of 65536..999999. The original "challenge" just said "C". THAT is all ANSI C. K&R C did not have those limitations. If you wanted to build a C with a 7 bit short, a 13 bit int, and a 19 bit long, it was OK. Only limits were that the sizeof an int couldn't be smaller than the size of a short, sizeof a long couldn't be less than that of an int, etc. I am not claiming that I could create a C compiler for 1401/1410, but these restrictions only preclude ANSI C. Note: I am also not saying that doing so would be a good idea. ------------------------------ Message: 66 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 09:08:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info? Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.1509240907080.309 at shell.lmi.net> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thu, 24 Sep 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > is it a dps 6 or 8? I am actually sincerely sorry that you are having another migraine that causes you to press the spacebar. But, I do have to point out that it makes you sound like William Shatner. ------------------------------ Message: 67 Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 12:55:41 -0400 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info? Message-ID: <aaf55.450df234.4335850b at aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" pretty funny! maybe I should be fortunate enough to have his salary also!? #ed In a message dated 9/24/2015 9:08:48 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cisin at xenosoft.com writes: On Thu, 24 Sep 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > is it a dps 6 or 8? I am actually sincerely sorry that you are having another migraine that causes you to press the spacebar. But, I do have to point out that it makes you sound like William Shatner. End of cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 24 **************************************

10 years, 7 months

3
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DDS SETASI SC44 info?

by derschjo＠gmail.com

Hi all -- I just added a PDP-11/44 to my collection and it appears to have some manner of cache upgrade; it's made by Digital Data Systems (DDS) and consists of two cards, one hex-height labeled "SC44 SETASI" (in the place of the normal 11/44 cache board) and a second quad-height labeled "1051" at the end of the first backplane. The two are connected via a ribbon cable. I know DDS made some seriously nice upgrades for the 11/70 but I can't find anything on this board set at all. I'm assuming it's just a souped-up cache but it'd be nice to know more (and docs would be excellent of course). Thanks, Josh

10 years, 7 months

3
6
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would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small ecli...

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

probably an artifact generated by my migraine this evening . In a message dated 9/22/2015 8:39:34 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cisin at xenosoft.com writes: On Tue, 22 Sep 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > I see you have one of those small reel tape drives also like we do > in our s20... what is the interface on them? what BPI ? who actually > made them? rather off-topic: is your space bar sticking? Seems like a lot of keybounce.

10 years, 7 months

3
2
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Free: IBM RT Monitors near Chicago

by silent700＠gmail.com

2x IBM 5081-16 CRT monitors. 3x BNC input and output. Unknown sync rates, may be specific to RT output, may not. Assumed working but unable to test. Don't want to scrap them but can't hang on to them much longer. You pick up or arrange pickup in 60070. J

10 years, 7 months

1
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cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 24

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwncwOG8-HY Fun - a BBC this is your life with Shatner - ed# In a message dated 9/24/2015 2:57:43 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, mark at markesystems.com writes: > I am actually sincerely sorry that you are having another migraine that > causes you to press the spacebar. > But, I do have to point out that it makes you sound like William Shatner. SNORT!!! (I had the fun of performing his version of Common People for a while with our power-pop band - it was a real blast!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsyNdjRX9mQ ~~ Mark Moulding

10 years, 7 months

1
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cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 24

by mark＠markesystems.com

> I am actually sincerely sorry that you are having another migraine that > causes you to press the spacebar. > But, I do have to point out that it makes you sound like William Shatner. SNORT!!! (I had the fun of performing his version of Common People for a while with our power-pop band - it was a real blast!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gsyNdjRX9mQ ~~ Mark Moulding

10 years, 7 months

1
0
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Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming

by bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca

On 9/17/2015 6:50 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > > This conclusion should have been obvious to anyone thinking about > general purpose computers implemented with microcode in ROM. Are there any computers that do let you put microcode into RAM now-days. You have a lot of byte code virtual machines out there. > -- Jecel > Ben.

10 years, 7 months

26
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Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

dps 8 was a phx ax big H project as I remember but new enough that I would have stored manuals rather than had them in active reference section. will keep eyes out! -Ed# In a message dated 9/24/2015 1:43:14 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, scaron at umich.edu writes: I think this anecdote is also referenced in the AFDC installation site story on multicians.org? Sounds familiar... Best, Sean On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:42 PM, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net> wrote: > On 9/23/2015 2:44 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Along with the 11/44 I also picked up a Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside >> workstation; I can't seem to dig up much information specific to this >> model >> (a badge on the rear labels it as "Model/Index No. B01732"). I can take >> some detailed pictures later this week after I've had time to clean it up >> (it's very, very dirty), but it looks very similar to the DPS-6 unit >> pictured on this site: >> http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/projet/gcos6/gcos6.htm >> >> Anyone have any docs on this thing? Or fun anecdotes to share? What have >> I gotten myself into with this thing? >> >> Thanks, >> Josh >> >> >> > browse here and elsewhere for WWMMCCS history and beginnings of > GCOS/DPS-6/Honeywell 6000 > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Military_Command_and_Control_System > > > One legend that gets trotted out whenever you speak of WWMMCCS is the > cookie monster that was on terminals in the Pentagon installation of > WWMMCCS. As the legend goes, at random intervals, the console would go > blank, operators would loose control and a message would display something > to the effect "cookie monster hungry - feed me". Supposedly once you > typed in one of several cookie names, the routine would release the system > back to the operator. I personally know a retired AF IT manager who > worked WWMMCCS and swears its a true story... > > Suspect you will find very little material other than what Al has - it > wasn't a particularly common installed setup. > > Steve > >

10 years, 7 months

1
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Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

pretty funny! maybe I should be fortunate enough to have his salary also!? #ed In a message dated 9/24/2015 9:08:48 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cisin at xenosoft.com writes: On Thu, 24 Sep 2015, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > is it a dps 6 or 8? I am actually sincerely sorry that you are having another migraine that causes you to press the spacebar. But, I do have to point out that it makes you sound like William Shatner.

10 years, 7 months

1
0
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Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

is it a dps 6 or 8? In a message dated 9/24/2015 12:10:41 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, derschjo at gmail.com writes: On 9/23/15 2:56 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > Ah, so these are the vintagetech.com machines! Please take lots of pics of > the DPS-8 inside and out; I've never really seen the innards of a Honeywell > machine before and I'm kind of curious what their "style" looks like. > > Best, > > Sean Will do. I took the boards out to inspect them tonight (they had rattled about a bit during shipment) and everything seems ok. I'll have time to take some pictures this weekend. Unfortunately, somewhere along the line someone disconnected nearly all the ribbon cables running to the boards and I've got no idea what goes where (only a couple are cohesively labeled.) This thing is going to be a project. - Josh

10 years, 7 months

2
1
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C out of its comfort zone - Re: Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Toby Thain > It did exist for some exotic, word addressed architectures {Innocent look} You mean, like the PDP-10? {Ducks!} Noel

10 years, 7 months

6
5
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Somewhat OT: Freighting Items

by cctalk＠fahimi.net

I know this is a topic that comes up quite often and I have archived a number of threads. However, I am still not finding what I need. The back story is that I need to have a desk shipped across the country to me. The desk measures 28" long, 27" wide, 35" tall and is ~125 pounds unpacked. While it is possible to disassemble the desk I rather not. I've gotten quotes form a number of outfits as follows: 1. UPS: $1200 to pack/crate the desk and ship it. 2. Craters and Freighters: $895 to wrap in PE Foam, Styrofoam, bubble wrap, and box shipped door to door (i.e. not real freight). 3. Freightquote: $475 if I palletize it/pack it myself (have to clarify if this is door to door or do I have to drop off and pickup). Anybody else have other suggestions/recommendations? From what I understand this desk is not that heavy (in the freighting scheme of things) and would easily fit on one pallet and maybe even a half pallet. But I've never shipped something via freight so maybe these are all accurate prices. Any help/guidance is very much appreciated. Thanks. -Ali

10 years, 7 months

14
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ISO: FP11-F (M7093) for PDP-11/44

by derschjo＠gmail.com

The 11/44 I acquired recently has a complete CPU set but no FP11-F board (M7093). I'd like to be able to run 2.11BSD (or other UNIX) on this machine, so having floating point hardware is pretty essential -- anyone have one going spare for sale/trade? Thanks as always, Josh

10 years, 7 months

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1
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Honeywell/Bull DPS-6 deskside info?

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

there was a nightmare! In a message dated 9/23/2015 6:20:18 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, healyzh at aracnet.com writes: Sam Ismail used to have a DPS-6, if not more than one

10 years, 7 months

1
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Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: tony duell > In some cases it should be possible to write a machine code program > that executes on 2 processors with wildly different instruciton sets. I have this bit set that I was told (or something, the memory is _very_ vague) that early versions of the KL-10 had this hack; the root block on the disk was the boot block both the PDP-10 and the PDP-11 front end machine, and the first instruction or two was very cleverly construced and sent the two machines different ways. Alas, I looked in the front-end PDP-11 code (in the KLDCP; directory) and saw no signs of this, so maybe it was an urban legend? Noel

10 years, 7 months

4
4
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Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]

by elson＠pico-systems.com

On 09/19/2015 10:58 PM, John Foust wrote: > The other recent development that makes me want to quit? > Someone's demonstrated you can hide in the firmware of > hard drives. > https://blog.kaspersky.com/equation-hdd-malware/7623/ - John Well, one would assume this is also OS specific. I would guess it would be incredibly hard to make a "disk" virus that would work on greatly differing OS's like Linux AND Windows. No telling what would happen if one of these disk viruses got onto a hard drive on a Windows system and then the drive was reformatted and loaded with Linux. Most likely you'd have odd crashes or something. Jon

10 years, 7 months

15
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cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 23

by mark＠markesystems.com

> So, I am looking to convert my old Access database I have used for many > years to a MySQL database, with the expectation that I will eventually > publish it on a web page for public lookup. I don't know what you're looking at for the front end of this project, but have you considered SQLite for the database engine back end? If not, you might take a look at www.sqlite.org - it's an extremely nice bit of software, if not for this project, then perhaps others. ~~ Mark Moulding

10 years, 7 months

2
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would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small ecli...

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

see if mother in law can bag it! they are rather pricey now! heh heh! In a message dated 9/23/2015 1:54:51 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cube1 at charter.net writes: On 9/23/2015 2:34 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > I really believe a person would make an entire interesting > collection of just logic trainers! > > we have a couple of the MINIVAC trainers too one I keep under > glass and the other I take out for show and tell. > My mother in law had one of those she used in her high school for extra projects for kids in her math classes. Played with it when I was up one Labor Day weekend before my wife and I were married. If that counts then so should the Digicomp plastic slidy-toy-thing I had as a kid. ;) JRJ

10 years, 7 months

1
0
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would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small ecli...

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

Ok have digicomp... then there were the arrray of analog computers with potentiometers and a meter.... In a message dated 9/23/2015 1:54:51 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cube1 at charter.net writes: On 9/23/2015 2:34 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > I really believe a person would make an entire interesting > collection of just logic trainers! > > we have a couple of the MINIVAC trainers too one I keep under > glass and the other I take out for show and tell. > My mother in law had one of those she used in her high school for extra projects for kids in her math classes. Played with it when I was up one Labor Day weekend before my wife and I were married. If that counts then so should the Digicomp plastic slidy-toy-thing I had as a kid. ;) JRJ

10 years, 7 months

1
0
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would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small ecli...

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

I really believe a person would make an entire interesting collection of just logic trainers! we have a couple of the MINIVAC trainers too one I keep under glass and the other I take out for show and tell. We have a fabritek and a few other later ones too. In a message dated 9/23/2015 9:58:30 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cube1 at charter.net writes: On 9/23/2015 11:28 AM, couryhouse wrote: > Wow! That is neat! > Our Dec logic trainer has sort of 8i looking toggles and lots of patch > cords... I had not seen one like yours. ... what is the date? > Ed# > > > There is an earlier one of similar design, but blue colored, in the 1966-67, 1967 and 1968 logic handbooks - so mine is later than that. One with PDP-8/PDP-12 style switches shows up in the back of the 1969 logic handbook. There is one that looks somewhat like mine on the inside front cover of the 1970 logic handbook, and the panels that would be possible to include in one start at page 353. So that dates it to 1970 or after.

10 years, 7 months

2
1
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LA120 ROM & new member intro

by thebri＠gmail.com

Hi. The original ROM request showed up just before I started receiving messages this morning, and I only got the tail end of the chatter. Instead of tacking a reply on to that, I thought I'd just start a new thread and introduce myself at the same time. Here's what I think is 23-038e4-00 from an LA120 (with a bad print head, and dead pin drivers as well). I couldn't find anything to compare it against, and the adapter is new. So it might be gibberish. I did see, at least, [A-Z] in the dump, so maybe it's good. As for the introduction, I started life on the Apple II in fourth grade or thereabouts, finally got a Commodore 128, then an Amiga, then jumped over to UNIX (BSD mostly) and stuck there for years doing software. After funding stopped being an issue, I decided to get back to more interesting and/or simple hardware, and electronics in general. I seem to have collected a rather complete HP86/87, under the illusion of using it for an GPIB controller. I'm now wrestling with an apparently dead PSU on a MicroPDP (actually, I just now gave up on it), and am slowly fixing up a PDP-8/a. It has two CPU boards, one of which ignores the HALT instruction. From the schematics, I think it's one faulty 74ls chip, but I haven't tried fixing it -- the machine has been down for cleaning/painting for many months. I just got it put back together this weekend. I also swapped out the fans for modern (quiet) 12v fans (driven off an isolated power supply powered by the original 120 vac fan supply)...and now hear the transformer buzzing away. Win some, lose some. Sigh. Congrats on making it to the end! Cheers! b

10 years, 7 months

2
2
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cctalk Digest, Vol 15, Issue 23

by mark＠markesystems.com

> There were plenty of assemblers around, some even native. Heck, I wrote > both an 8008 and an 8080 cross-assembler (in FORTRAN, naturally). It's > not rocket science. One friend of mine wrote his assembler as macros > for a mainframe assembler. That, at once, gave him all of the advanced > facilities of the host assembler. Wish I'd thought of that... So, I wrote my primitive little 8080 assembler, in Fortran-77. I started using it the next day, and my manager asked where I got it. After I told him, he said that I should have asked him first, because he could have put together one using editor macros pretty easily - in less than a week, he estimated. The fact that I knew nothing about macros notwithstanding, I noticed I thereafter got a lot more autonomy when I told him I wrote mine in a single (longish) day... ~~ Mark Moulding

10 years, 7 months

2
1
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Structured Fortran

by cruff＠ruffspot.net

At NCAR there was a structured Fortran preprocessor named IFTRAN that was in use for a long time. The earlier versions of the NCAR Local Network (NLNET), later renamed MASnet (Mainframe and Server network), as well as a variety of graphics packages were written in it. I still have the IFTRAN to C translator I wrote to convert everything to C code so we didn?t have to spend money on Fortran compilers on the Unix boxes. MASnet was a Hyperchannel cross bar network used for batch job submissions and data transfers to/from the Mass Storage Server (MSS), the supercomputers and the front end servers. Eventually it was migrated to run on top of TCP/IP and Ethernet when the Hyperchannel hardware got expensive to maintain and comparatively slow.

10 years, 7 months

1
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Re: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small ecli...

by couryhouse＠aol.com

Wow! That is neat!Our Dec logic trainer has sort of 8i looking toggles and lots of patch cords... I had not seen one like yours. ... what is the date?Ed# Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Jay Jaeger <cube1 at charter.net> Date: 09/23/2015 6:21 AM (GMT-07:00) To: COURYHOUSE at aol.com, cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small ecli... On 9/23/2015 3:58 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > Yes? host?? was? having hickups? it? seems. >? > Take a look? at the neat logic? trainer? by? IBM at link? below, >? > Wish I had? more? info on this? IBM? tube?? type? digital logic? trainer > kit.? comes in a?? wonderful? fitted? case? with all kinds of??? plugable > units?? see url >? > http://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg >? >? > The logic? trainer is on the left? at the? right is? SAGE? plugable? unit >? That is seriously cool. I have one of the older style DEC ones, complete with lots of cards and plug wires: http://webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection/misc/logiclab.jpg JRJ

10 years, 7 months

3
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would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small ecli...

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

Yes host was having hickups it seems. Take a look at the neat logic trainer by IBM at link below, Wish I had more info on this IBM tube type digital logic trainer kit. comes in a wonderful fitted case with all kinds of plugable units see url http://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg The logic trainer is on the left at the right is SAGE plugable unit This was a really early photo as I think I had just finished building the display case and that was all that was in it! that entire 8 foot case is pretty much SAGE display. SAGE is near and dear to some of us as we had a DC across from Luke AFB about 15 minutes away from our building. We even have some remains of come gear from the first prototype Q7 system that I need to hunt down more info on. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 9/22/2015 7:01:09 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cube1 at charter.net writes: Hmmm. I am getting a DNS miss on www.smecc.org - was not getting that earlier today. JRJ On 9/22/2015 8:37 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > One thing first look at this and need more info on it and docs. > > wish I had more info on this IBM tube type digital logic trainer > kit. comes in a wonderful fitted case with all kinds of plugable > units > see url http://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg > > > current project 3000/37 and micro 3000 > Looking for more 3000 stuff both small and large ( cx, ser I,I ser > III etc.) > Pulled them all over to the media center where I could spread out and > work on them. > > ok here is some of our stuff. > we are not exclusively a computer museum but we do have some <grin!> > > > Other areas are > scientific instruments, > radar and radar countermeasures adn other electronic warefare > radio and TV broadcasting, > Rural Electrification, > Tools of the journalist, > office automation 1800's forward. > Telecommunications for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing > and on and on > > Some Minis > > H 11 ( LSI-11 by DEC but in Heath packaging ) > DEC PDP8 classsic sn/18 > HP-2116b > HP-2000 access system (has 2 2100 in it) > HP3000/37 ( when it is in the building) > eclipse s20 > > need to clean and wedge in > Dec PDP 11/20 > DEC PDP-8 S > NEXT cube, printer, monitor and all next-y related chachakies > > who know what are in the other buildings > > Micros... > > Intel Intellect 8 > Altairs > Imsais > many Comidore things > many R.S. > Heath h-8 > Heath H-89 > several osbornes > apples > sun-sparc > lots of single board computers > cobalt cube > next cube with all accs > a bunch of other ss > > many many hp desktops and pcs > love the prtototype iHP Integral we have too > > > > > trainers and digital labs > > IBM really early with tube type plugable units > > DEC lab > Fabritec lab > > wish I had more info on this IBM comes in a wonderful fitted case > with all kinds of plugable units > see url http://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg > > > > > > > In a message dated 9/22/2015 3:25:29 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > jwest at classiccmp.org writes: > > Awesome. What minicomputer systems do you have on public display besides > the > DG? I'm glad to see more DG representation of course :) > > ---- > This month's 'make computer work ' project is HP-3000 related. > ---- > I'm a bit of an HP fan ;) What's cooking 3K-related? > >

10 years, 7 months

2
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would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small ecli...

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

You are indeed lucky they ceased. Mine did not start until my 20s It is definitely one thing that made sure I had my own business. Many people in a supervisory position have no understanding of what it is like. Ed# In a message dated 9/22/2015 10:10:22 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cube1 at charter.net writes: On 9/22/2015 11:00 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > probably an artifact generated by my migraine this evening . > Ugh. Had some of those while I was in High School, complete with squiggly lines, often nausea and hours of intense pain. You have my sympathy. Then one day I started to get one while I was driving from home to the local music store. I pulled over, took a deep breath and (I kid you not) told myself no, you are not going to get a migraine, ain't gonna happen. It went away almost immediately, and I haven't had one since. Go figure. Almost certainly pure coincidence. [I wish that would work for everyone. Sigh.] JRJ

10 years, 7 months

1
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would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small ecli...

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

Ed reply - Jay - I did all that yeas ago... It did not smoke but it also did not do much else. LOOPBACK to... I need to find manuals and a system tapes probably. Sure looks pretty though ( and better with a blue et head terminal on top!) I wish I had learned more about DG stuff. I had some folks that had helped me when I was starting out in the business and when DG stuff showed up or a local needed something usually I turned them over to one of my friends. eventually I was even handing of DEC deals to friendly people and just settled in on the HP stuff. It worked well that way but I sure did not learn much abut DG stuff! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 9/22/2015 3:25:29 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: ed sez -Pretty futile to restore until I have manuals and a load tape if needed in front of me. ---- jay sez- Not futile at all. Taking it apart, cleaning it up, replacing anything obviously bad, checking out the power supply.... all things you can likely do without a manual. You could go a little further than that just by asking a few questions here; folks are glad to help! Think of all the great stuff you'd learn along the way!! You'd find manuals and tapes at some point I'm sure!

10 years, 7 months

1
0
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would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small ecli...

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

Jay looking at - your flicker page I would say you have a mountain of it! <grin!> I see you have one of those small reel tape drives also like we do in our s20... what is the interface on them? what BPI ? who actually made them? https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02 In a message dated 9/22/2015 3:25:29 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: ---- Jay sez - Not sure what you're driving at there, but when I'm done... all I will have is one lonely rack :) Nothing wrong with that! Not to mention, there's the "classiccmp law of attraction". Basically if you get just part of a machine, the rest will suddenly start appearing :)

10 years, 7 months

2
1
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Fwd: [midatlanticretro] Announcement

by mspproductions＠gmail.com

This was posted on another list, I thought that others on this list would be interested. Sent from my iPhone Begin forwarded message: > From: "Dave McGuire Mcguire at neurotica.com [midatlanticretro]" <midatlanticretro at yahoogroups.com> > Date: September 22, 2015 at 10:44:52 PM EDT > To: "midatlanticretro at yahoogroups.com" <midatlanticretro at yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [midatlanticretro] Announcement > Reply-To: midatlanticretro at yahoogroups.com > > > Some of you are aware that I've been pursuing a long-term project of > constructing a museum in the Pittsburgh area. > > I am proud to announce that we have hit a major milestone: We have > set a date for the first public opening. The Large Scale Systems > Museum will open its doors to the public on Saturday, October 17th, > just under one month from now. > > This is to be a one-day provisional opening coinciding with an event > here in town. We may decide to open the museum regularly on a sparse > schedule afterward, or it may wait awhile, depending on how things go > on the 17th. The renovation work is ongoing, so it won't be perfect, > but we think it'll be good. A great deal of progress has been made > here in the past several months. > > Many of the Really Big Computers here will be running and > demonstrated on a rotation throughout the day. > > The event in town is a large "block party" of sorts that will > encompass much of the downtown area. A few highlights: > > - A fancy department store that was located on this block decades > ago will re-open in their old store location to show off vintage > wedding gowns, and some people who purchased their gowns there in the > past will bring them back to show them off. > > - A local winery will set up a wine tasting. > > - A soldering workshop. > > - A makerspace pop-up. > > - A beer garden! > > - The standard fare of food vendors, live bands, etc. > > There are two other "Big Deal" tie-ins that I'd like to announce: > > Big Deal #1: Many of you will remember my fiancee Autumn, who sold > handmade vintage-computer-themed soaps at the most recent VCF-East. > Her company, Apothecary Soap Company, will be opening its first store, > here in town around the corner from our main building. > > Big Deal #2: While the details aren't yet finalized, C/PMuseum in > downtown Pittsburgh, curated by Corey Little and Chris Little, will be > relocating many of its exhibits, including some vintage game consoles, > to a temporary exhibit space just a few buildings down from mine. > Since C/PMuseum's primary focus is on microcomputers and the Large > Scale Systems Museum's primary focus is on minicomputers and > mainframes, so together we'll have great coverage of a range of genres. > > My building is at 924 4th Avenue, New Kensington, PA 15068, right in > the middle of the block party area. New Kensington is about ten > minutes' drive from the Allegheny Valley exit of the Pennsylvania > Turnpike, Exit 48. It's a very easy area to reach, and there are a > number of decent hotels nearby. > > I wish to extend an invitation to all of you to attend this event. > It's on Saturday, October 17th, from noon to 8PM. > > Please feel free to forward this message to anyone whom you think > might be interested. > > Thanks, > -Dave > > - -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > > __._,_.___ > Posted by: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> > Reply via web post ? Reply to sender ? Reply to group ? Start a New Topic ? Messages in this topic (1) > VISIT YOUR GROUP New Members 1 > ? Privacy ? Unsubscribe ? Terms of Use > . > > > __,_._,___

10 years, 7 months

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would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small ecli...

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

One thing first look at this and need more info on it and docs. wish I had more info on this IBM tube type digital logic trainer kit. comes in a wonderful fitted case with all kinds of plugable units see url http://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg current project 3000/37 and micro 3000 Looking for more 3000 stuff both small and large ( cx, ser I,I ser III etc.) Pulled them all over to the media center where I could spread out and work on them. ok here is some of our stuff. we are not exclusively a computer museum but we do have some <grin!> Other areas are scientific instruments, radar and radar countermeasures adn other electronic warefare radio and TV broadcasting, Rural Electrification, Tools of the journalist, office automation 1800's forward. Telecommunications for the Deaf and Hard of Hearing and on and on Some Minis H 11 ( LSI-11 by DEC but in Heath packaging ) DEC PDP8 classsic sn/18 HP-2116b HP-2000 access system (has 2 2100 in it) HP3000/37 ( when it is in the building) eclipse s20 need to clean and wedge in Dec PDP 11/20 DEC PDP-8 S NEXT cube, printer, monitor and all next-y related chachakies who know what are in the other buildings Micros... Intel Intellect 8 Altairs Imsais many Comidore things many R.S. Heath h-8 Heath H-89 several osbornes apples sun-sparc lots of single board computers cobalt cube next cube with all accs a bunch of other ss many many hp desktops and pcs love the prtototype iHP Integral we have too trainers and digital labs IBM really early with tube type plugable units DEC lab Fabritec lab wish I had more info on this IBM comes in a wonderful fitted case with all kinds of plugable units see url http://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg In a message dated 9/22/2015 3:25:29 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: Awesome. What minicomputer systems do you have on public display besides the DG? I'm glad to see more DG representation of course :) ---- This month's 'make computer work ' project is HP-3000 related. ---- I'm a bit of an HP fan ;) What's cooking 3K-related?

10 years, 7 months

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Core memory and OS/8

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

<EmilyLitella> Never Mind! </EmilyLitella> I put the 32K SRAM board back in with the top four fields disabled. Sure enough, OS/8 booted and MEM showed 16K, which confirms my recollection that it will work with less than 32K. Then my lights came on - I had made an elementary error... I had selected the wrong MM8-AB 16K core board, the one that was jumpered for field 4-7. So there wasn't any core in fields 0-3 which will "break" OS/8. When I fired up the system with only the board jumpered for the LOW 16K core, everything works as usual. Sorry for the bandwidth... -Charles

10 years, 7 months

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Are we different?

by c.murray.mccullough＠gmail.com

I was reading an article in Maximum PC, Nov. 2015, p.82 that got my attention. It said: ?When the lower orders knew their place?? I wonder if he means users of vintage computers? Just asking! Happy computing. Murray :)

10 years, 7 months

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Core memory and OS/8

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

One of the reasons I bought Vince's 32K SRAM board for my 8/A is because I was having flakiness with my "real" core boards (two 16K and one 8K). Now that OS/8 is running again, and my RL8A and two RL02's are as debugged as they're going to get, I decided to experiment with the old core. Put them back in the chassis and... the two 16K boards are now working perfectly. I ran it for two long passes with DHKMAD (checkerboard diagnostic) with no errors! What's strange, though, is that OS/8 won't boot unless both 16K boards are in the backplane. Then it does boot and a MEM shows "32K MEMORY!" as expected. Won't boot with 16K or 24K of boards, either. I thought that only 12K was mandatory (at least that's what the Device Extensions manual says for an RL01). Or is that something that's set up during BUILD?... I don't see anything in the OS/8 manual and I know I had OS/8 running with 16K and 24K previously. -Charles

10 years, 7 months

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Query for dec teleprinter roms

by jgevaryahu＠gmail.com

Does anyone have an LA36, LA120 or LAS12, LA34, LA100, or LA210 somewhere which they could dump the ROMs from? Notes: The LA36 uses several proms for its discrete cpu, and 2 character set roms which I believe have an 'odd' pinout. The LA120, one of the roms on the '2 rom version' is an 8k 2364 24 pin chip which is a bit annoying to dump, since you either need a 2364->2764 24->28 pin adapter, or (better) a programmer which can dump MC68764 or MC68766 24-pin 8k eproms (which have the same pinout as 2364). The other rom on the 2 rom version is a 2k 2316 24 pin chip. The oldest LA120 version uses 5 roms, all 2k 2316s. The code on the 5-rom version and the 2-rom version may very well be the same (the first 4 2k chips consolidated to one 8k chip), I'm not sure. Would be nice to get dumps of both versions. The LAS12 uses different code from the LA120 and to the best of my knowledge all LAS12s use 2 roms, one 8k and one 2k. LA34, theres at LEAST five firmware versions, almost certainly six, and possibly as many as seven. There is also a special firmware for a 'rom expansion' daughterboard. The 1978 LA34 "54-13374" motherboard has a bizarre Intel i8355 mask rom+io chip in it, plus a separate rom as well. (there are at least two versions of said i8355+rom firmware). Dumping the i8355 is not for the faint of heart, it would likely be easier to insert a 'dumping program' eprom into the single rom's socket, and use the LA34's cpu to spit its own rom contents out via serial. The 1980 LA34 "54-13747" motherboard lacks the i8355 and uses 2 or 3 mask roms or eproms on it instead (and 74xx logic for the i/o). There are at least three rom revisions for this, possibly four or five. LA100 (AKA LW100)... I have no idea. There's definitely at least one rom revision. Also to the best of my knowledge neither the maintenance print set nor the technical manual for the LA100 are scanned (they certainly don't appear at http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/terminal/la100/ ), which makes it difficult to know. -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu at gmail.com jgevaryahu at hotmail.com

10 years, 7 months

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Structured Fortran - was Re: Self modifying code, lambda calculus

by rickb＠bensene.com

Chuck wrote: > > For those wondering about the notion of an "optimizing" assembler, one > has to realize that 650 instructions were executed from a drum and were of > the "1+1" addressing type. Calculating the optimal address of the next > instruction was very tedious and a perfect task for automatic optimization. > Many moons ago I did some programming on a process control computer made by 3M. The machine was a 24-bit word, bit-serial, transistorized machine with drum as main memory. Each instruction contained both the operand address and the next instruction address (in block/track/sector numbers). Depending on the timing of the instruction, the optimal address for the operand and next instruction were calculated based on offsets given in the instruction set summary. There were no index registers on this machine, only a single accumulator register (implemented as a shift-register). The only way you could do table operations or jumps based on evaluation of an expression was self-modifying code. However, this was tricky, if you wanted the code to run as efficiently as possible (minimizing waiting for rotation of the drum), you had to do optimization calculations as part of the self-modifying code. The other tricky part was the you had to be aware of track and sector numbers and properly deal with overflowing, e.g., max sector number was , IIRC, 30(octal) , so if you added 1 to the address, you'd have to clear the sector to zero, and add one to the track address, also being aware that the track number could overflow. I learned a lot from that old machine. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com

10 years, 7 months

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would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small eclipse

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small eclipse this thing is a beauty and has a tiny side by side reel to reel deck just would be nice to have a terminal to display with it in the museum. drop us a line offlinst... ed sharpe archivist for smecc

10 years, 7 months

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Some amount of DG goodness

by marc.verdiell＠gmail.com

Oh, that blue 1970's psychedelic color! The fast line printer! The vacuum column drive (drool)! And it is alive! Congratulations! Marc

10 years, 7 months

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'New' PDP-11 prints

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

So, I've been going through all my PDP-11 prints, looking for ones that aren't already online (so I can scan/upload them). I have a couple (see later message), but this is about something else. In doing the above, I ran across an LSI-11 print set (MP-00706) which is about 340 pages long, and contains prints for all manner of boards, some of which do not show up (for reasons I don't understand) when looked for in a common search engine (Google, to be precise). I will eventually be adding them to my list of 'online by unfindable print sets': http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/FMPSOnline.html (which I have recently updated with more finds falling out of the search of my collection of prints), but: does anyone know of any other similar large compendiums of prints online? In particular, I'm hoping there's a later equivalent (this one's from October 1978) which would show a lot of the later QBUS boards which we don't have prints for. As I previously mentioned, I've gone through a number of PDP-11 print sets which are online (11/05, 11/05S, 11/23, 11/34, etc) in compiling the initial list, but it seems like there are more out there. Please let me know of any others you are aware of, so I can trawl them too! Noel

10 years, 7 months

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Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC programming

by mark＠markesystems.com

> I wrote X.25 software in Fortran:-(. We had some machine specific routines One of my first professional jobs after college was with a company that created after-market hardware and software for Apollo workstations. Despite having a good Pascal, I was tasked with (and completed) a port of a scientific word processor package (WordMarc), all in Fortran (77, at least). Since I ended up being pretty familiar with both the language and environment, I used it again to throw together a simple 8080 assembler in about a day, too. ~~ Mark Moulding

10 years, 7 months

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Self modifying code, lambda calculus - Re: ENIAC

by mark＠markesystems.com

> Early 3rd generation machines had special instructions to finagle their > way around self-modifying code: And some didn't: The HP 2100 and the PDP-8 (and I think the Honeywell x16s), instead of a stack, would store the return address of subroutine calls in the first word of the subroutine; obviously, this made recursive subroutines impossible without handling a stack manually. > Few CDCers of the time even knew that the STAR-100 existed. I remember Reading up on the early history of CDC, I stumbled across the "Little Character" - Seymour Cray's six-bit proof of concept for his first computer designs at CDC. Apparently, one was actually built, because it's now at the CHM. However, I haven't been able to find any significant information about this on the Web (my Google-fu must be failing me). Does anyone know where I could find some documentation about this machine? Performance specs (memory size, speed, etc.) would be nice, but I'd really like a detailed architecture and instruction set description - you know, in case someone wanted to make an emulator or something... ~~ Mark Moulding

10 years, 7 months

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would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small ecli...

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

yes ET! the one in the with the head in the yoke although anything blue and pretty would be better than nothing! Our Eclipse is not as grand as some photos ,,, and the tape drive is a small side by side reel unit that fits in the single rack here is a photo of ours.... http://www.smecc.org/data_general.htm had it for years need manuals etc and maybe some sales lit. or scans of advertising material to display with it... but yea... it cries out to have a terminal with it! In a message dated 9/22/2015 9:08:14 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: Jay Jaeger wrote... ---- ??? What do you mean by "blue dg et head looking terminal" ??? ---- I'd bet that he's referring to the Data General Dasher D200 terminal. I have one: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/21058074082 But perhaps a better picture: http://maben.homeip.net/static/s100/data%20general/photos/DG%20dasher%20d200 %20front.jpg The D200 isn't always on ebay, but usually they show up mildly frequently there and seem to go around $200 to $250. There was another common terminal on eclipse systems. I'm not sure if it was in the Dasher series, but I believe it was called a "5821". I have one of these as well. http://www.museumwaalsdorp.nl/computer/images/GRP.jpg Lastly, a common combination system console (terminal)/printer that is VERY cool looking was the Dasher TP1 and TP2. Mine is a TP1. http://www.foxdata.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/IMG_0210.jpg J

10 years, 7 months

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would like to find blue dg et head looking terminal to go with small ecli...

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

that may have been the one i had.... In a message dated 9/22/2015 11:59:29 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: On mine, there is no "blank panel space" to the right of the screen. The screen takes up the entire horizontal width. Diagonally, the terminal "head" measures 21 inches so it's slightly unusually large for a terminal. On the back, under model number it says "5821NT".

10 years, 7 months

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PDP-11 Overlays

by jhfinedp3k＠compsys.to

Recently, there have been a number of references to using overlays on the PDP-11. There have also been strong suggestions that overlays were structured differently under the 3 operating systems: RSTS/E, RSX-11 and RT-11. Obviously, I understand how RT-11 overlays were set up, but for those readers who don't: ROOT - contains overlay code subroutines and data tables - data used by more than one overlay FIRST Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region - one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay SECOND Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region - one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay THIRD Overlay Region - size of the largest overlay in the region - one or more overlays and the data used by just that overlay FREE MEMORY Any overlay could be called from any location. About the only requirement was that the calling instruction code (specifically the code which followed the calling instruction) had to be in memory when the code returned from the overlay. In practice, the usual protocol was that an overlay in a higher region was only called >from a lower region or the root. I understand that RSTS/E and RSX-11 were a bit more complex. Can anyone briefly summarize and also provide a link to the details in the appropriate manual if it is available on the internet? Jerome Fine

10 years, 7 months

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Multi-platform distribution format (Was: Backups [was

by jhfinedp3k＠compsys.to

>Rod Smallwood wrote: > >On 21/09/2015 10:30, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> >On 2015-09-21 02:11, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >>> You bring up a VERY notable lack of support by DEC of that >>> situation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>> >>> For both the DEC RX01 and the DEC RX02 8" floppy drives, >>> while it might have been possible that DEC engineers were unable >>> to initially figure out how to allow users to perform an LLF (Low >>> Level Format) on the 8" floppy drives, it seems certain that after >>> 3rd party manufactures figured out, DEC could also have supported >>> that function as well. >>> >>> Instead, DEC pretended that all 8" floppy media HAD to be >>> purchased PRE-FORMATTED from DEC. Well, if you >>> ever discussed that option with a DEC person, it certainly >>> did not seem like the individual was pretending. >>> >>> After I managed to locate a DSD (Data Systems Design) >>> drive which supported the DEC RX02 floppy drive function, >>> it was game over for that particular DEC monopoly. The >>> DSD drive was able to perform an LLF for either single >>> density or double density in addition to being both single >>> sided and double sided. >> >> Not that tricky. All you needed was a way to format into RX01 format, >> which is plain simple IBM single side, single density format. >> RX02 floppies have the same low level formatting. To use them in RX02 >> mode just requires flipping a bit in the sector header, and the RX02 >> drive is able to do that. > I am not sure that I understand your suggestion. While I agree that the RX02 was able to switch a single-density floppy to a double-density floppy (and visa versa), the difficulty, as you pointed out, was performing the initial LLF (Low Level Formatting) in the first place on Un-Formatted 8" floppies. That may have been easy with IBM hardware, but DEC made that impossible if all the user had was a DEC system. For readers unfamiliar with DEC vocabulary, the FORMAT command did NOT create a file structure! That command in RT-11 was INITIALIZE and something similar was probably used for RSTS/E and RSX-11. Note that under RT-11, the FORMAT command for the RX02 did NOT perform an LLF, but did set the density bit in each sector if an LLF had already been performed and was sufficiently intact to support clearing out all the data in the sector setting and the density bit to the value requested by the user. In practice, I found that when an RX02 floppy started having problems, the LLF was VERY rarely a problem. For reasons which were not understood, when the floppy media started to have read and or write errors, it was usually possible to have the RX02 floppy drive perform the software command which DEC called FORMAT and re-initialize all the sectors so that the media could be used again without any read and or write errors. That obviously would have required the LLF to be sufficiently present for the software and hardware to repair the problems and reset all the sectors as either single-density or double-density depending on what the user requested. I am not sure what conclusions can be drawn from this example. >>> Note that the RX50 was the same. DEC finally changed >>> their marketing policy with the RX33 drive which used the >>> same 3.5" HD floppy media as the PC. It was actually >>> possible to FORMAT those floppies under RT-11. >> >> No, DEC actually did support users formatting RX50 floppies on their >> own, but only on the Rainbow. >> >> Johnny > If it was possible to perform a LLF using the same RX50 drive on the Rainbow, what was the reason why an LLF could not also be performed on a PDP-11? There seems to be a number of possibilities: (a) There was some hardware that the Rainbow had which was missing on the PDP-11 systems (b) The firmware in the controller on the Rainbow supported an LLF, but the firmware in the controller on the RQDX1, RQDX2 or RQDX3 on the PDP-11 did not support an LLF (c) The Rainbow used a program which DEC supplied that could perform an LLF, but DEC did not supply such a program for the PDP-11 systems (d) Another possibility of which I am not aware. Is there an answer as to which possibility supported the Rainbow being able to perform an LLF using an RX50 drive, but that the PDP-11 systems with that same RX50 could not perform an LLF? >> Take me back to my desk in DECPark thirty years ago and I could have >> pulled out the internal documents on this. > > I cant do that so we will have to make do with my dodgy memory. > When floppy disks first appeared end users just wanted to take the > disk out of the box and use it. > They could not see why they should waste time preparing every new one. > They did not need matching to a particular drive as DEC's > manufacturing tolerances made sure any disk would work on any drive. > > In fact it was more difficult and expensive to provide pre-formatted > disks. > It was more about customer service and making sure the equipment kept > running. > > I heard the following story > > One customer went out and got a huge pile of unformatted (and > untested) floppys and a third party format program. > He expected DEC to make it work. > > The account manager asked to see his DEC maintainance contract and had > to be restrained from tearing it up. > Through the window of the office was building site and the inevitable > 50 gallon oil drum burning rubbish. > He was offered a choice; he could put the disks or the contract in the > burning drum. > > Rod Smallwood > > > > > DEC supplied pre formatted disks I don't know how to respond since different individuals will interpret your story in the opposite manner, So I will add my own experience when I used the RX02 drive from DEC along with the DSD RX03 floppy drive. Around 1990 after I had acquired the DSD RX03 floppy drive in a DSD 880/30 system, I also managed to acquire many brands of 8" floppy media. At that point, I had not yet managed to acquire any tape hardware such as the TK25 which supported a 32 MB disk image, so the floppies were my primary backup. I probably had about a dozen different brands of 8" floppies that required an LLF before they could be used. And since a double-density, double-sided 8" floppy media held about 1 MB (1976 blocks) as opposed to about 1/2 MB (988 blocks) for double-density, single-sided media, I set set about the task of enhancing the DEC DY.MAC RX02 device driver after I found the code in V04.00 of RT-11 which included support for double-sided media. What may be called "interesting" was that DEC had removed all of that optional code in DY.MAC by the time V05.00 of RT-11 was released. That might have had something to do with the fact that DEC never sold (that I heard of) an RX03 drive. In any case, adding and correcting the extra code was quite easy. The challenge was to also add support for a user buffer being above the 1/4 MB boundary in a PDP-11 with all 4 MB of memory when a Mapped RT-11 Monitor was used since the controller supported only 18-bit addresses. Another problem was that the index hole for single-sided floppies was offset about 1/2" from the index hole for double-sided floppies. That challenge was solved by using a DPDT switch to flip the sensors that were used on the DSD 880/30 and that supported using, as double-sided, floppies with the single- sided index hole. While a number of 8" floppies had been purchased that had the double-sided index hole, that was less than 10% of the total and after punching the extra pair of holes in single-sided floppies just a few times, it was very quickly apparent that the DPDT switch was a much better one-time solution. What was initially a surprise was that EITHER the single-sided OR double-sided index hole could be used with the same floppy to access the sectors even though the holes were in different positions. The timing did not seem to matter. Only the device driver software cared if the bit was set one way or the other, so flipping the sensors which were activated was an excellent one-time solution when the user (me!!) wanted to use a floppy with a single-sided index hole as a double-sided floppy. In any case, the code was enhanced, my version of DYX.SYS supported the RX03 double-density, double-sided floppy drive under a 22-bit RT-11 monitor. So I set about the job of the LLFs for double-sided 8" floppy media. As mentioned above, in addition to a couple of dozen 8" DEC floppies, I had about a dozen other brands. To make a long story short at this point, the results were "interesting". Every non-DEC branded 8" floppy could hold an LLF for double-sided, double-density. On the other hand, I seem to remember that only about 2/3 of the DEC 8" floppies managed to complete the LLF. The other 1/3 of the DEC 8" floppies could hold an LLF on the normal first side, but not on the second side. Obviously this story was somewhat different since it was not necessary to ask DEC maintenance to make the LLF capability with the DSD 880/30 to work - it already worked. In addition, there was no DEC maintenance contract in the first place and there was no 50 gallon oil drum. There was also no refusal by DEC to enhance the DY.MAC device driver to support the RX03 floppy drive since DEC was not asked. Over the decades since, I have always wondered how it was even possible for ONLY the DEC 8" floppies to be unable to take an LLF double-sided when every other brand managed to do so. There was probably one floppy that was so severely damaged that it would not take an LLF on either side, but that was a specific exception. Any 8" floppy which could take a double-sided, double-density LLF held the data successfully when used in practice. In any case, I also ask the questions: (a) Was it more difficult and expensive to provide pre-formatted disks? (b) FOR WHOM was it more difficult and expensive to provide pre-formatted disks (DEC or the user)? (c) Was it more about customer service and making sure the equipment kept running? (d) Was it more about DEC charging about TEN times the price for pre-formatted disks over the price for un-formatted disks and having a technician take the time to do the LLF (about 2 minutes for each double-sided, double-density floppy or about 30 floppies an hour)? At the time, I seem to remember that a box of 10 pre-formatted 8" floppies from DEC was about $ 50 while a box of 10 un-formatted 8" floppies was about $ 5 a box. If a technician could format 3 boxes of 8" floppies in an hour, that would seem to save that user about $ 135 which would probably be less expensive for the user. (e) Was it equally reliable and less expensive to use non-DEC unformatted 8" floppies if the user had the necessary hardware and or software to pre-format the floppies? Also, I want to be sure to add that in my experience, RT-11 is probably the best written and documented operating system that I have encountered. While there are still a few bugs that can actually crash the operating system and many enhancements were and are still needed, RT-11 is mostly stable and easy to use. RT-11 obviously lacks any security when running under an UnMapped Monitor since the user has access to all of the memory. Even with a Mapped Monitor, a user program can gain access to the Monitor. But RT-11 was not designed to be secure in the first place. So I still think that DEC did an exceptional job - especially since almost all programs written for the very first version of RT-11 can still run under the latest version. Jerome Fine

10 years, 7 months

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Reading a masked ROM the hard way (was Re: Wanted: ROM images from HP 9895, 82901/82902, and other HP-IB disk drives)

by spacewar＠gmail.com

Someone was kind enough to mail me the masked ROM out of his HP 9895 floppy drive. I've read it and mailed it back. It's an MK36000 series 24-pin 8KB masked ROM, with the same pinout as the Motorola MC68764 EPROM, so reading it with an EPROM programmer set for the Motorola part should work fine. In read mode, no programming voltage is applied, so there should be no risk of damage to the part. Unfortunately my Data I/O Unisite does too good a job trying to protect devices against reverse or misaligned insertion or incorrect device configuration; if it thinks the current drawn by the device is too low or too high, it aborts with a device insertion error. The MK36000 draws significantly less current than the MCM68764. I tried putting an appropriately valued resistor in parallel, but still got the error. I ended up kludging the masked ROM to the expansion bus interface of a TI Launchpad board with a Tiva TM4C1294 microcontroller (ARM Cortex-M4 based), using an SN74LVC245A buffer on the data bus because the Tiva is not 5V-tolerant. I wrote C code to read the ROM and send a hex dump out the USB-serial interface. Photo: https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/21611518545/ As I've needed to use the expansion bus interface of the Tiva for other projects, even though this was a lot of work to read one ROM, the experience and maybe even the code may be useful in the future. The next issue is that it appears that the 9895 may permute the address and/or data busses, as the contents of the ROM don't actually look like reasonable Z80 code.

10 years, 7 months

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vintage datacenter furniture

by BHuntsman＠mail2.cu-portland.edu

This is sort-of off topic, but not entirely... I've seen a fair amount of furniture like in the following picture: http://dooki.com/supercomputers/ibm/ibm.s390g4.gif It looks well-made, industrial, and vintage (sort of). Anyone know who makes such things? Did IBM have a go-to desk manufacturer for their stuff, or just whatever the customer provided? Thanks! -Ben

10 years, 7 months

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Sheet Metal Fabrication Options?

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Jay West > A couple items in my holdings have rust ... The only good solution I > could see is having the existing metalwork sandblasted and then > repainted. I've not checked, but I suspect that's "non-trivial-$". > Thoughts? Iff you have access to an air compressor, small sandblast units can be had at Harbour Freight for less than $50. If you don't have a compressor... well, that's considerably more money, but I find a compressor is a very useful thing to have. I feed our sandblast unit (one of the HF ones) with playground sand, a couple of $ per bag, which I feed through a sieve made of 4 pieces of scrap wood (frame) and some plastic door/window screen. (If you don't sieve it, the cheapo play sand has larger bits in it which tend to jam the nozzle.) And the sieve allows me to be _really_ cheap and sweep up the sand and recycle it. I refinished an H960 which I got which was in pretty nasty condition (very severe rust on the bottom surface, some rust elsewhere, e.g. on the uprights) using this rig, and some tins of spray paint (Rustoleum flat black), and it came out looking brand spanking new. (My attempt to do the same with a BA11 ran into some shoals, I screwed up the spray-painting - definitely an art! :-) Anyway, if you're up for doing it yourself, it's a useful capability to have in-house. Noel

10 years, 7 months

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Some amount of DG goodness

by shadoooo＠gmail.com

Hello, you have a very nice lot of DG stuff, indeed! I have a Nova 3 sitting on the garage, waiting for proper repair. However it's missing all the front panel switch levers, so I would need to rebuild them, not having had the luck of finding some at reasonable price. I have some picture of the original Nova 3 levers, however I didn't manged to have the exact size to fit an obtained plastic model very well. Would you mind to take one cover apart, and put it on a flat-bed scanner together with a clear ruler (in the same picture), so I can measure from the image the exact sizes? The profile is not the same, but I can obtain it from the camera pictures I already have, using your images as size reference for rescaling. Thanks Andrea

10 years, 7 months

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Overlay - one answer

by rodsmallwood52＠btinternet.com

And we have a winner of the overlay competition ..... From the CBASIC manual The CHAINstatement can load two types of programs: an overlay program generated by the linker, or a directly executable file. As I used CBASIC this must be where I got it from Rod Smallwood -- Wanted : KDJ11-E M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330

10 years, 7 months

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IBM 026 - Decision Data 8010 card punch on Ebay in

by marc.verdiell＠gmail.com

Wow. Thanks for sharing. What a beautiful looking machine. I hope one of us gets it. Marc ===================================== Date: Mon, 21 Sep 2015 18:36:20 +0200 From: Mattis Lind <mattislind at gmail.com> Not really a 026 but maybe contemporary with the 029: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Historische-EDV-Lochkartenstanzer-Card-Punch-von-1973 -2000-Lochkarten-/371439456530?hash=item567b845112 Not mine.

10 years, 7 months

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Sheet Metal Fabrication Options?

by brain＠jbrain.com

I was wondering if anyone has or knows anyone who has experience with low volume sheet metal enclosure fabrication? I am looking for a fabricator to build small (think game cartridge enclosure sizes) clamshell units (or similar). I thought before I start cold calling folks, I'd see if someone has already had some success. -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com

10 years, 7 months

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DG S/130 front panel switches?

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

So does anyone have a trashed/dead front panel for a Data General S/130 (S/200 would also work) that can be a donor? All I need are two switches/paddles/Covers, but my S/200 front panel is perfect so I don't want to rob from that for the S/130 project. One light blue, one dark blue... Crossing my fingers..... J

10 years, 7 months

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Some amount of DG goodness

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

I decided to raid the front panel of my S/200 to get a switch cover and a switch for the S/130; what can I say - I got antsy to see if the S/130 worked ;) When taking the S/200 front panel apart I found it really wasn't in great shape as it had appeared to be from the outside. A large number of the incandescents had broken off and were sitting loose and one of the switch covers was broken so someday I'll return to the S/200 but the S/130 restoration was completed as a result. Pictures (completely out of order) are at https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02 but the first picture shows the cpu up. Once or twice, running the microcoded self-test produced a "Rom Error", but almost always it produces the desired result and loops on that test (checks microcode checksum, ability to execute and step microcode, a few CPU instructions & paths, and tests the lowest 16Kw of ram). Raising switch 0 halts cpu at microcode address 2 just as it should. I also noticed that on rare occasion, hitting "examine" on AC1 produces no result - but other than that I can store and read AC0-3 as well as several different sections of memory. Next step is to locate a 4045 board and see if I can get a console hooked up. After that, I'll need some way to get diagnostics into the machine. To that end, I could try restoring a HD, 8" diskette, paper tape, or dual cassette drive - but I'm wondering if there is any previous art for entering a front panel ditty and stuffing diags down the console port (from a PC)? Yes, google is my next stop ;) Thanks to several listmembers and especially Bruce for pointers and advice, as documentation is scarce and not organized the way my brain works. Best, J

10 years, 7 months

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DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600

by rodsmallwood52＠btinternet.com

I'm pleased to be able to report the successful installation of OpenVMS 8.3 - Alpha on my 3000 M600 It now runs Dec Windows on the graphics screen and a terminal on the serial port. TCPIP works and I can get to my local network OK. Now to find a browser. There must have been one Rod -- Wanted : KDJ11-E for my 11/94 M8981 KK8-E M8300 KK8-E M8310 KK8-E M8320 KK8-E M8330

10 years, 7 months

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TSS/8 with modern disks?

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

OK, there does appear to be larger disk support... now how about for RL02? Unfortunately the drive is not as smart as an RK (can't do spiral read/writes) so that would complicate things. However, each side of cylinder 0 is about 10KB, so 20K is available without having to move the drive head. I bet that would be enough swap area most of the time (it's not like most of us have 16 users all logged on simultaneously) :) -Charles

10 years, 7 months

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IBM 026

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good > enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725 So I see this sold - anyone know who got it? Noel

10 years, 7 months

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IBM 026

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Marc Verdiell > thanks for taking care of a rare 026. Actually, IIRC this was an 029 - thread drift, after LCM (IIRC) enquired about a punch - for them, an 029 seemed as good as an 026. > this community is about celebrating people that have an interest in > saving old valuable hardware. Indeed, this whole list is about people saving computers that don't really have any _practical_ use any more. By definition, from a purely _functional_ perspective, their value is scrap. But our viewpoint is not that - we see them as interesting and historic artifacts - and in that light, their true value is set by that old mechanism, supply and demand. So some antique computers go for what I find remarkably low prices (e.g. QBUS -11 stuff) because there's a good supply, and other very similar machines go for a lot (that 11/70).because they are un-common. And IBM punches are not exactly common items... Noel

10 years, 7 months

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Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]

by jfoust＠threedee.com

At 05:57 AM 9/20/2015, Liam Proven wrote: >On 20 September 2015 at 05:58, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote: >> Someone's demonstrated you can hide in the firmware of hard drives. > >And access the hypervisor layer of an OS in various ways from programs >executing inside a VM. Yeah, that too. The easy recombination and modularization of malware makes it so much worse. I suspect there are quite a few easy ways that malware could hold hostage the typical VMware / Hyper-V / Veeam / NAS / SAN setups at many businesses, and easy money because it would be far easier to pay the ransom than to perform full disaster recovery. On a more classic-computer bent, though, I try to look backwards for wisdom about how this problem could be solved, and it's such a different world with the Internet and higher stakes and dependency on networked computers... it's not easy to solve. - John

10 years, 7 months

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VARM revision J transcription

by mouse＠Rodents-Montreal.ORG

Something like two and a half years ago, I got a copy of EL-00032-00-decStd32_Jan90.pdf, a one-image-per-page scan of a paper copy of the VAX Architecture Reference Manual. I don't know where I got it, but bitsavers has a file of the same name with the same MD5 checksum at /pdf/dec/vax/archSpec/EL-00032-00-decStd32_Jan90.pdf now, so it likely was there. I played with trying to build character-recognition software to convert it to text and eventually decided it would be quicker and easier to do it myself. I've just finished that. (I'm not sure whether it actually was quicker or easier....) The result is available from ftp.rodents-montreal.org in /mouse/docs/DEC/VARM/EL-00032-00-decStd32_Jan90.txt for anyone who would care to grab a copy. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

10 years, 7 months

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Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]

by lproven＠gmail.com

On 20 September 2015 at 05:58, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote: > Someone's demonstrated you can hide in the firmware of hard drives. And access the hypervisor layer of an OS in various ways from programs executing inside a VM. So, for instance, much malware self-inactivates if it detects that it's running inside a guest instance, so that anti-malware investigators cannot examine its behaviour. What is now being investigated (doubtless by both sides) is malware that can inject code into the hypervisor from within a guest. Once you've reached x86-64 Ring -1, then you're a god, you can do anything you like to any VM and no anti-malware in the VMs can prevent it. There is also research into using the increasingly industry-standard remote-management features in core chipsets to hide or distribute malware, again out of reach of any OS-level task. And there is the very controversial claim of malware that could transmit itself from machine to machine using speakers and microphone. It's a jungle out there, with all that that implies about parasitism, zombieism, concealment and stealth and creepy disgusting infections that hide for a lifetime then apparently explode out of nowhere. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

10 years, 7 months

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Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]

by cisin＠xenosoft.com

On Fri, 18 Sep 2015, John Foust wrote: > As to why your antivirus didn't see it... there's always a few days > before the latest infection mechanisms are documented and added to > the AV updates. CryptoLocker has been around for a year. I don't think that McAfee nor AVG see it. "Well, it's not a VIRUS, . . ." > When I first heard about Cryptolocker, I wanted to give up consulting > and find a different career. Is there a way to crowdfund a hit?

10 years, 7 months

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IBM 026

by marc.verdiell＠gmail.com

Todd, Well, hopefully this community is about celebrating people that have an interest in saving old valuable hardware. Not bullying them. Saving substantial hardware involves a substantial personal investment in time and money. So, Todd, well done, congratulations on your buy, and thanks for taking care of a rare 026. And if you need any tips for restoration I would be happy to help (I have an 026 and an 029, both fully functional now). Marc ====================================== Message: 27 From: Todd Goodman <tsg at bonedaddy.net> Subject: Re: IBM 026 Message-ID: <20150918235900.GF30683 at ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> [150918 07:25]: > So I see this sold - anyone know who got it? > > Noel Yes. I did. I'll let people know what's up when I receive it. Though i don't expect to get much time with it for a while. Todd

10 years, 7 months

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Garage sale in Silicon Valley

by tsw-cc＠johana.com

Various items that will probably be of interest here.? No reasonable offer refused. Hard copy??? You got it:DecWriter LA30? (modified to show lower case, yes it works).DecWriter LA36 (Decwriter II) Sun 4/110 floor standing model, 36 megs (if I remember correctly).Two SCSI boxes that go with the Sun, I believe one has an operating system on it.Apple LaserWriter Plus, two (UNOPENED) toner cartridges for it.ADDS Viewpoint 3A terminal. Just so you know it is "classic":JVC U-Matic (3/4 inch) video cassette recorder, with cables.? NTSC. Sorry I can't ship these, they are currently located in zip code 95008.PayPal accepted at time of sale. Make me an offer I can't refuse!

10 years, 7 months

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TSS/8 with modern disks?

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

I would think the fixed head media swapped faster than the RK's unlessthee fixed head media was really slow... Ed# In a message dated 9/19/2015 10:45:53 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, aek at bitsavers.org writes: On 9/19/15 9:44 AM, John Wilson wrote: > later TSS/8s already supported RKs > as data disks, unless I've gone senile). No idea how they managed that -- > UW-M's TSS/8 supported that. It should be in the monitor sources that we read.

10 years, 7 months

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TSS/8 with modern disks?

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

there was a time I really wanted a tss 8 system to use and even started colleting stuff for it in the late 70s but along came the 2000 f HP system I bought and I headed in that direction.. which gave be an HP destiny not a DEC Destiny. but still ... would love to find a tss-8 all together in the racks as used back then... Ed# In a message dated 9/19/2015 1:45:44 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, wilson at dbit.com writes: On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 12:30:13PM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: >When did the 4K user space(s?) actually swap? Did they round-robin or swap >based on activity? I would think they would stay in place until cpu-bound >jobs reached their time quantum. With only a couple of people on a 32k >machine, it may not even swap that much, depending on what the users were >running. I'd guess BASIC was pretty big. My understanding is that it's round-robin among runnable jobs, one time slice at a time. I.e. the simplest possible way. IIRC the monitor always takes up two fields (not swappable). One more field (so, 12 KW total) is the minimum necessary to run at all -- SI, FIP, and all the users can share that field with frantic enough swapping (which causes a pretty lights show on the RF08 panel). Any more memory than that means less swapping (or none), so it's kicking out the LRU job as needed. I have a hazy memory that SI and FIP *only* run in field 2? Could be wrong. BASIC runs in your 4 KW with you. I've never seen its sources so I don't know how clever it is about overlays and/or keeping your program on disk. It's a very limited BASIC. Strings are 6 characters. Not max -- *always* 6. Line #s max out at 2046. John Wilson D Bit

10 years, 7 months

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ISO 800-3827-10A_SunOS_Reference_Manual, part one

by aek＠bitsavers.org

Someone asked about uploading the SunOS 4.1 docubox I had scanned, so I finally got around to doing that today, but discovered that I never scanned the part 1, just the system calls of 800-3827. I suspect that I never had it. So if someone has that or a Solaris 1.x docubox a scan would be helpful.

10 years, 7 months

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PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

>> From: Jerome H. Fine >> a list of the actual links to the other PDF files which are >> available to be viewed would be appreciated. > I should probably throw together a web page with links to all the > PDP-11 files there (e.g. the one I just put together, of print sets > that are available inside other print sets), and link to that from my > home page. OK, done: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/PDP-11_Stuff.html I'll update it anything I put up anything else. Anyone and everyone is free, nay urged, to mirror any of the material that page links to on their own sites. Noel

10 years, 7 months

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TSS/8 with modern disks?

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

Some years ago I recall reading about possibly modifying TSS/8 to run on more recent disks instead of the ancient DF32 (a whopping 32Kword fixed head disk with up to three more slaved platters). Did anyone actually implement the changes? I know it wouldn't work well on a moving-head disk without significant changes, because the swapping is more or less constant. -Charles

10 years, 7 months

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TSS/8 with modern disks?

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

what is a O.O jay? In a message dated 9/19/2015 9:54:12 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: Ed wrote.... ---- Seems like a ssd would make an ideal fixed head replacement if it has to swap swap swap all the time? ---- O.O J

10 years, 7 months

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TSS/8 with modern disks?

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

Seems like a ssd would make an ideal fixed head replacement if it has to swap swap swap all the time? Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 9/19/2015 9:44:07 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, wilson at dbit.com writes: On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 10:50:04AM -0500, Charles wrote: >Some years ago I recall reading about possibly modifying TSS/8 to run on more >recent disks instead of the ancient DF32 (a whopping 32Kword fixed head disk >with up to three more slaved platters). Or the RF08/RS08 -- luxurious compared to a DF32/DS32! >Did anyone actually implement the changes? I know it wouldn't work well on a >moving-head disk without significant changes, because the swapping is more or >less constant. A zillion years ago, the DECUS library had a TSS/8 hack to make it run on an RK05 (as the only disk I mean -- later TSS/8s already supported RKs as data disks, unless I've gone senile). No idea how they managed that -- the wordiness of the DF/RF controllers penetrates deep into TSS/8's soul. Maybe RFILE/WFILE weren't done compatibly with vanilla TSS/8? Dunno. John Wilson [0,3]@SID D Bit

10 years, 7 months

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ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Dave Wade > Crispin Rope concentrates on the power of ENIAC and its usefulness Which is why you should look at the longer, later article: http://eniacinaction.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/EngineeringTheMiracleof… in particular the part I pointed out (bottom right corner of pg. 51), which talks about all the things that can be found in that early ENIAC code, e.g. subroutine calls with storage of return point, etc. I am far less interested in the comparison with other machines (in that article) than I am with the enumeration of what the 'program ENIAC' _itself_ could do - which seems to have been quite a lot. > to me a "computer" without self-modifying code is a programmable > calculator even if it has index registers... So a modern Harvard-architecture machine (e.g. AMD29K) with only ROM on the instruction bus is a programmable calculator? It's precisely that hypothetical which leads me to conclude that the fact that the 'program ENIAC' only had ROM for its code (actually, technically, that's quite not true - it could execute programs stored on cards, too) is not that important; I think the thing to look at is what its programs could contain. Noel

10 years, 7 months

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DEC RX8-E, M8316, M8317, M8365, M8366

by useddec＠gmail.com

I have a limited of M8357, RX8-Es for sale, first come, first served, for $175. I think I found the M8316, M8317, LQP01 interface, and LA180 interface, and will try to post a price in the next few days. Shipping within US is $10 for up to 10. Shipping from 61853.

10 years, 7 months

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SIMH PDP-8 question

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

I have Lunar Lander (in Focal) working again on my PDP-8/A with two RL02 drives (about which you have been reading a lot lately). It's been so long I don't remember where I got the text file (LUNAR.TX) from, but it's on both my RL02 OS/8 image and the physical pack... The rather unusual way I got the Focal program saved onto the RL02 was to punch the text file to paper tape on the Teletype, start Focal, read the paper tape from the Teletype, then save the "typed"-in program to disk. Think that's how I did it quite a few years ago when I got the system, too. So far my best game is 0.20 mph "perfect landing - lucky!" :) Takes me back to junior high in the 70's... Anyway, I'd like to do the same thing in SIMH (get the text file into Focal and then save it as a Focal program). Is there any way to do this with SIMH? Can I assign the text file to a paper tape reader, for example? thanks Charles

10 years, 7 months

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Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]

by r_a_feldman＠hotmail.com

>From: Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > >> I think a more important issue in backing up is "How many GENERATIONS > >to you keep around?" > >For many purposes, that's an important consideration, yes. There's >something (small) I back up weekly for which I keep the most recent >seven backups, the oldest backup in each of the most recent twelve >months, and the oldest backup in any year. I'm considering something >of the sort for my house backups - live replication to a backup host, >with a once-a-week freeze of the replica, storing past replica drives >on a scheme somewhat like the above. There is a ramsomware variant that encrypts the files but silently decrypts them when they are accessed. It does this for six months before deactivating the on-demand decryption and displaying the ransom message, the theory being that by that time all of the backups will be of the encrypted files, and thus will be useless for restoring good versions. As to how one can become infected, see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/27/malvertising_feature/?page=1. Major sites, such as The New York Times, Reuters, Yahoo!, and Bloomberg, have been serving malware -- including ransomeware -- through hijacked advertisements. No need to click on anything, the ad serves up the malware. BTW, where I work got hit with ransomeware in December. We were lucky that it first hosed the accounting/time tracking database, which generated errors when someone tried to enter her time. When I went to restore a backup of the database, I noticed the ransomware's html ransom note file and shut down the system before too many more files were encypted. We were able to restore everything (except the originally infected user's computer, which we wiped and reinstalled) from an unconnected backup drive. Bob

10 years, 7 months

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HP-41 User Library Programs and Documentation.

by hp-fix＠xs4all.nl

For the cost of shipment, the below is surging for a new owner. About nine books with program cards containing programs about: - Control - Electrical Engineering - Business - 81XX Processors assembly conversion - Math and calculus - Graphics and printing - Etc.. H-41 User Library Documents, some about filing new programs other copies of the actual User Library Books Program documentation belonging to some of the program cards. The weight of it is about 3kg so shipping will be in 2-5kg range. It is of cause as is, no warranty etc.. If interested contact me off-list

10 years, 7 months

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release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS

by spacewar＠gmail.com

I've been searching for introduction dates of early microcomputer operating systems, by which I mean only operating systems that run on computers using single-chip microprocessors such as 8008, 8080, and 6800, but not the LSI-11, IMP-16, HP 9830, etc. Intel's ISIS operating system for their MDS was first released in 1975, but I haven't been able to pin down a month. I'm looking for a more specific date for that, and for the releases of any prior microcomputer operating system. On Twitter, @hotelzululima suggested Motorola MIKBUG, introduced in 1974, but IMO it's a monitor, not an operating system. Hzl also suggested Forth, which I also don't really consider to be an operating system in the traditional sense, but if there's evidence of Forth or a Forth-like language available for a microcomputer prior to 1976, that would be interesting as well.

10 years, 7 months

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12" Floppy Disks

by barythrin＠gmail.com

Is he also in the UK? Details or dates would help. Did he say it was a floppy like disk or just disc like a platter? I have to look around but i actually have something that sounds like it but I've never looked up what it really was. Figured it'd be disappointing and newer than it looks lol. I dont have a web site to display pictures but i can look for it and email you or someone else a shot of it. ?My guess is its really a magnetic backup tape. ?I haven't measured it but venture i can take a picture of it in front of a trs-80 model 2 that has 8" drives for comparison. <div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Adrian Graham <binarydinosaurs at gmail.com> </div><div>Date:09/15/2015 3:39 AM (GMT-06:00) </div><div>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> </div><div>Subject: 12" Floppy Disks </div><div> </div>Morning folks, I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so sure. Anyone? -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk

10 years, 7 months

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Canon Cat for sale

by sellam＠vintagetech.com

I have a Canon Cat in terrific shape for sale. It works just fine. The screen is bright and clean. It also comes with the Canon Cat printer. See photos here: http://vintagetech.com/sales/Canon%20Cat/ More information available upon request. Asking $1,400 or best offer. Thanks. -- Sellam ibn Abraham VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. The truth is always simple. * * * NOTICE * * * Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered reliable for any purpose either express or implied. The contents of this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. The right of the people to be secure in their papers against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated.

10 years, 7 months

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ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Al Kossow >> the machine had to be configured (via connecting up computing units >> with cables) > In 1947 ENIAC was modifed at BRL to be a stored program computer. Well, I did say "in the original ENIAC usage" it had to be configured by plugging! I was aware of the later conversion. > http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1339839 Crispin Rope, "ENIAC as a Stored-Program Computer: A New Look at the Old Records", IEEE Annals of the History of Computing, Vol. 29 No. 4, October 2007 Thanks for that pointer. I couldn't get access to that paper (it's behind a paypal I don't have the ability to pierce - I would be grateful if someone could send me a copy), but in looking for it online, I did find the very similar: Thomas Haigh, Mark Priestley, Crispin Rope, "Engineering 'The Miracle of the ENIAC'", IEEE Annals of the History of Computing, Vol. 36, No. 2, April-June 2014 which includes the same author, and is later, so hopefully more definitive. It's quite interesting: according to that, the conversion of ENIAC to a 'stored program' configuration, after a period of about a year of discussion and planning, took place starting around March, 1948, and the first problem was run using it in April, 1948 - and it cites a lot of contemporary documents to that effect. (As the article points out, this contradicts the long-and-widely-held impression, from a statement in Goldstine's book - and if anyone knew, it should have been him! - that gave the date of that as September, 1948.) Anyway, the new, earlier date is of course is very shortly before the Baby ran _its_ first program, in June, 1948. So there is a rather interesting question as to which 'computer' ran first. I'd always gathered it was the Baby, but this new data may overturn that. It is true that the 'program ENIAC' (to invent a term to differentiate that stage of the machine from the earliest configurations, which used the cabling method) did not store its program in the same read-write memory as data, as the Baby did, instead storing it in 'EPROM' (switches). However, I don't consider that very important; nobody says that a machine running out of PROM isn't a computer! The important thing is that it's a program, with things like subroutine calls >from different locations, address modification for data access, etc, and the 'program ENIAC' apparently had all that (see the list at the bottom of page 51 in the article). So it's likely indeed be the 'first computer'. Noel

10 years, 7 months

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12745 HP-IB Adapter

by ball.of.john＠gmail.com

So last week I did a rather insane 3000km road trip that had me travel through four states (Washington, Oregon, Idaho and Montanna) and over an international line to pick up a "pack-loading HP disk drive". It turned out to be a rather nice condition 7925B with a 13037C controller in the cabinet. It has the usual nasty foam you gotta remove and replace but otherwise it's extremely clean inside and out and powered up trouble-free. Unfortunately I didn't receive any 13356A packs with it, nor did I receive the critical component I needed: the 12745 HP-IB adapter kit. I don't actually own any HP minis unless you include the PA-RISC HP9000 D350 but I have a number of machines that will support mass storage over GPIB/HP-IB, including a Silicon Graphics machine. Anyways while I found all the documentation I needed for the drive, controller and adapter and there's that one pack on ebay for a less-than-modest $350 I cannot find even a hint of anyone who has a spare 12745 kit for sale. Was this an uncommon addon or am I just not looking in the right places? -John

10 years, 7 months

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Paging Wayne Smith

by sellam＠vintagetech.com

Wayne, if you see this please contact me ASAP. Thanks. -- Sellam ibn Abraham VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. The truth is always simple. * * * NOTICE * * * Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered reliable for any purpose either express or implied. The contents of this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. The right of the people to be secure in their papers against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated.

10 years, 7 months

1
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Spelling reforms [was RE: punchcard svg file available]

by RichA＠LivingComputerMuseum.org

From: Dave G4UGM Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2015 12:06 PM >> From: Liam Proven >> Sent: 10 September 2015 16:17 >> On 10 September 2015 at 15:42, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: >>> He also said that the colored pencils that I manually did graphs with >>> were "COLOUR PENCILS". >> Sounds legit to me. But then in the old world we still spell the proper, >> old-fashioned-way. ;?) > I believe that historically "color" or "colour" was acceptable in English. Correct. "Colour" reflects Norman French, "color" reflects Latin. > It was the Victorians that pushed the current "English" spellings in an > attempt to "Latinise" or "Latinize" or even "Posh Up" English and Webster > who pushed the simplified spellings that the USA uses today.... However, it was far earlier than the Victorians. Noah Webster (1758-1843) only overlaps the Victorian era by 6 years; he was reacting against the aristocratic spelling norms of the 17th and 18th centuries, when Latin and Greek were held to be more important than English in the learning of the latter language. His spelling book was originally published in 1783. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

10 years, 7 months

4
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HP 2225A HP-IB Thinkjet Parts wanted (in Europe)

by Martin.Hepperle＠dlr.de

Hello, in order to repair a HP-IL device I am looking for remains of HP-IB (yes) Thinkjet Printers. I only need the PCB resp. the HP-IL chip on the PCB for desoldering and implanting into another PCB. The mechanics can be damaged or even missing. Martin

10 years, 7 months

2
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ENIAC programming Was: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From Dave > AMD29K isn't "Modern" Well, compared to the ENIAC it is! :-) To be serious, the 29K is fully what we now think of as a 'computer'; that's all I meant by saying it's "modern". > If you have to use another external mechanism to arbitrarily change the > program, then it's a calculator..... Alas, if you hold to that, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, because to me, a 29K with only ROM on the I-bus is clearly a 'computer'. Noel

10 years, 7 months

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Cryptolocker (was RE: Is tape dead?

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

I took on a brand new client a while back, and before doing any real work for them they were hit by cryptolocker. I hadn't yet even done a "IT Review" for them, so didn't yet know what systems they had in place. Thus, under the gun, I started looking at their backup setup, and found it "severely lacking". They did have a backup system from the previous IT guy, but due to the way it was set up it would have taken days to get the data off of it and all moved back into the correct spots. So given days of billable time/work or paying the ransom, we chose to pay the ransom as the most expedient solution. They only accepted bitcoin, and there was a deadline after which the ransom doubled or more. So we jumped through hoops to get a bitcoin account set up, funds deposited, etc. That was a rather convoluted process and took time (albeit less time than working with the existing "backup" system). Soon as the bitcoin was transferred to the hostages account, a key was received online via the TOR browser. Yep, the key worked, and decrypted all the data. A new (and easy/functional) backup system was put in place immediately thereafter. I've also talked to a few of my associates who own IT consulting firms, and any of them that decided to pay the ransom did in fact get a working decryption key. ZFS is a good solution :) Best, J

10 years, 7 months

10
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Additional config info for Camintonn CMV-250, CMV-500, CMV-254, CMV-504

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

So I have a couple of these Camintonn boards (a -500 and a -254, to be exact), both using 256Kx1 DRAM's. I wanted to upgrade them both (by adding memory chips) to be -504's (2MB), and I noticed that the -254 had a couple of jumper wires that the -500 did not, so I needed to know what those jumpers did. I looked online, and although there is a little bit of info, it doesn't cover those jumpers. My first thought was that they might be timing-related; one board used -12 parts, the other -15. However, after some poking around, I think (with 98% certainty, although I haven't traced etches to be 100.000% certain) that they actually allow the boards to be used with both 64Kx1 and 256Kx1 memory parts. I hereby offer up all the details in case anyone's interested: I found a document which described them as "Starting and ending address boundary" (alas, without giving any detail, but which confirmed they aren't timing-related). The clincher as to their function was the capacities of the various board versions: CMV-504 2 MB Memory Module CMV-254 1 MB Memory Module CMV-500 512 KB Memory Module CMV-250 256 KB Memory Module How do you get a 256KB board using 256K devices on a memory board that has to produce 16-bit wide words? Clearly, the board was first produced with 64Kx1 chips, and so it likely (like the similar NS23C) that it can be configured to use either 64Kx1 or 256Kx1 chips. Here are the details of how to do that: down near the fingers, there are a block of 6 solder pads, denoted thus: MPR NOS (Note that there is _another_ 'S' on the board, at the top.) On board #1, the CMV-254, it has jumpers on M-N, P-R (apparently the configuration for use of 256K chips), and etch cuts on R-S, N-O (likely the configuration for 64K chips). On board #2, the CMV-500, it has a slightly different PCB (likely a later rev), and has no jumpers, and has etch connections M-N, P-R (note - the same as the #1 board has jumpers). Hope this is useful to someone! Note that the board was normally sold with 1, 2, or 4 rows of chips. (Interestingly, there must be two ways to produce a CMV-500 - 1 row of 256K parts, or 4 rows of 64K parts. I've never seen one of the latter, but would be interested to know if anyone has.) I plan to verify that the board actually works OK with _3_ rows of chips (i.e. as a 1.5M board), with the appropriate settings - will update when I try that. Noel

10 years, 7 months

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Desperately need BA11-N/BA11-S Technical Manual

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: tony duell > Do you have a URL for the prints (to save me going through all possible > candidates on bitsavers)? Yeah, as per my 'where are subsystem prints' page, they are in the 11/23 print set MP00740, pg. 81-87 (schematic on pg. 87): https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decqbusMP0_10391074 (Doesn't seem to be on BitSavers?) > What is the fault with your board? First, I should explain that I do have a working PM board, so we can swap back and forth to see what a working one looks like. It also verifies that the fault is on that board, since the working one is fine in that chassis. Anyway, on the bad one, both ACLO and DCLO (BPOK and BDCOK, I guess the QBUS guys call them :-) are being pulled low. Looking at the board, D5 (the Q3 end) is at ground, the other end is at around ~-3V; with D4, both ends are at ground. On the good board, both ends of each diode go to -12V shortly after the machine powers on. (Advance thanks for any help! :-) Noel

10 years, 7 months

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Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]

by couryhouse＠aol.com

Well then we have hp 3000 stuff from 23 years ago...?Was ?then..?But soon we will see if these tape sets live.. it will be good if so as there is hp software ?of unique ?nature ?that only existed being saved on our tape sets..... then there ?is the older hp 2000 stuff.... ?5 fascinating unique things ?some were rewritten for 3000. But a few not and if you want ron on a 2000 you can not go backwards. ..need more hp2000 and 3000 hardware help! ?Ed# ?www.smecc.org Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> Date: 09/16/2015 11:54 AM (GMT-07:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?] On 09/16/2015 11:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 9/16/15 11:15 AM, couryhouse wrote: > >> We have 10 years of backups.ed# >> > ever verified them? Mine go back to sometime around 1980.? I have customer records that go back to 1987.? Curiously, we got a note from a fellow needing an update to CopyQM.? He registered his product in 1992.? We found it and provided him with a 1999 update--the last we did before the sale of the software (the terms of sale allow us to support existing customers). Just keep carrying the stuff forward.? I've even provided other authors with copies of their own source code after they'd lost track of it. You never know when having complete archives will come in handy.? But you already know that, Al! --Chuck

10 years, 7 months

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Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]

by couryhouse＠aol.com

Enough repeated material over time just in case but yes,at one point random did . BACK UPS on backups ?on backups in my cases. Of course if one orig source file is bad from 10 years ago ?the backups of said file are eckky too. ?I await the dvds made of stone stuff I like to stash backups off site scattered about the country too. Geographical diversity is great... az though saver than calif ...earthquakes. ..and safer than areas with floods and huricanes.. I guess it is all a roll of the dice ?though. .. ?but just do it lots and cast it far and wide. I have no only museum stuff to worry ?about but also the news service stuff we do.....Ed# www.smecc.orgSent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> Date: 09/16/2015 11:20 AM (GMT-07:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?] On 9/16/15 11:15 AM, couryhouse wrote: > We have 10 years of backups.ed# > ever verified them?

10 years, 7 months

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Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?]

by couryhouse＠aol.com

We have 10 years of backups.ed# Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone -------- Original message -------- From: Robert Feldman <r_a_feldman at hotmail.com> Date: 09/16/2015 10:40 AM (GMT-07:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: re: Backups [was Re: Is tape dead?] >From: Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > >> I think a more important issue in backing up is "How many GENERATIONS > >to you keep around?" > >For many purposes, that's an important consideration, yes.? There's >something (small) I back up weekly for which I keep the most recent >seven backups, the oldest backup in each of the most recent twelve >months, and the oldest backup in any year.? I'm considering something >of the sort for my house backups - live replication to a backup host, >with a once-a-week freeze of the replica, storing past replica drives >on a scheme somewhat like the above. There is a ramsomware variant that encrypts the files but silently decrypts them when they are accessed. It does this for six months before deactivating the on-demand decryption and displaying the ransom message, the theory being that by that time all of the backups will be of the encrypted files, and thus will be useless for restoring good versions. As to how one can become infected, see http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/27/malvertising_feature/?page=1. Major sites, such as The New York Times, Reuters, Yahoo!, and Bloomberg, have been serving malware -- including ransomeware -- through hijacked advertisements. No need to click on anything, the ad serves up the malware. BTW, where I work got hit with ransomeware in December. We were lucky that it first hosed the accounting/time tracking database, which generated errors when someone tried to enter her time. When I went to restore a backup of the database, I noticed the ransomware's html ransom note file and shut down the system before too many more files were encypted. We were able to restore everything (except the originally infected user's computer, which we wiped and reinstalled) from an unconnected backup drive. Bob ?? ?

10 years, 7 months

3
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PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Noel Chiappa > I have also gone through my set of manuals and prepared a list of all > the ones which aren't online. > ... > EK-1184A-TM-PR4 11/84 Technical Reference (Preliminary) > EK-1184E-TM-001 PDP-11/84 System Technical and Reference Manual > EK-1184E-MG PDP-11/84-E User's and Maintenance Guide So I spaced. 1184E-TM-001 _is_ online; not sure how I missed it! > From: Henk Gooijen > I would be very interested in the 11/84 docs, as far as not available. I'm not sure there's much in the other two which isn't in the other 11/84 manuals which are already online - I think the content is mostly the same, just arranged differently. A few minor tweaks (e.g. that sentence I found a while back about the BIAK/BDMG jumpers on the 11/84 backplane), but nothing major. I'll get to them at some point - alas, I bound them, so now I have to un-bind them before I can scan them! Oh well!! > I have EK-KK11A-TM-001 "KK11-A cache memory technical manual" Lyle Bickley made that one available a couple of months back. It doesn't seem to have made it into the repositories, though? Should I upload a copy to my web site, and send along the URL? > From: Jerome H. Fine > However, both of the directories at the next level up are blocked. If > there is any possibility that both these directories could be made > available to allow the other PDF files to be viewed Err, there are no other PDF files there, except the 11/73 CPU board prints, which I mentioned here recently and have now been mirrored. > If not, a list of the actual links to the other PDF files which are > available to be viewed would be appreciated. I should probably throw together a web page with links to all the PDP-11 files there (e.g. the one I just put together, of print sets that are available inside other print sets), and link to that from my home page. > Also, do you have any files of source code or binary distributions of > RT-11 files? Alas, being of the MIT persuasion, we never did anything with DEC software (except TWENEX, on the DECSystem20's), so I have nothing of anything to do with DEC software - Unix all the way! ;-) Noel

10 years, 7 months

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12" Floppy Disks

by binarydinosaurs＠gmail.com

Morning folks, I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so sure. Anyone? -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk

10 years, 7 months

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Desperately need BA11-N/BA11-S Technical Manual

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

So, I'm trying to fix a broken Power Monitor Boards (the thing that drives ACLO/DCLO) in an H786 (BA11-N power supply), and although I have the prints, I can't make head or tail out of them. (The circuit is a maze of op-amps and 555's. OK, OK, so maybe an analog guy can take one quick look, and understand instantly how it works. But I don't have that gene! :-) So I'm looking for a BA11-N or BA11-S Technical Manual, to explain it to me (my experience is that the DEC Tech Manuals for power supplies are _really_ good at that). (Either the BA11-N or BA11-S since, although the PM boards have different part numbers in the two - 54-12528-0-1 in the BA11-N/H786, and 54-15048-0-1 in the BA11-S/H7861, the circuits in the two seem to be pretty much identical, looking at the prints.) Alas, neither seems to be available online. (The BA11-N is EK-BA11N-TM-001; the BA11-S is in the "PDP-11/23B Mounting Box Technical Manual", EK-23BMB-TM-001.) I have clues to the existence of a couple of copies of the BA11-N one, though. A "David Powell" (then at ICUKnet in the UK) sent out a message saying he had one, but the email address for him at ICUKnet no longer works - I haven't (yet) tried to find him via LinkedIn because it's a common name. I don't suppose anyone here knows him, do they? Also, this page: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/Book-Catalog.html which claims to be the "Book Catalog (incomplete) of the Computer History Museum, as of July 27 2002" says they have one. Would it still be there, and is there any chance that, if so, it can be scanned an put online? Many thanks, in advance, for any help with this - I'm pretty desperate! Noel

10 years, 7 months

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Still seeking 3B2 information

by lists＠loomcom.com

Hi everyone, I've made tremendous progress on my 3B2 emulator. It's being implemented under the SIMH simulator platform, which has been a huge help. My WE32100 core is getting closer to being complete. I'd consider it alpha quality right now, but it has enough instruction coverage to pass the 3B2's power-on self tests and to (barely) run some of the 3B2 firmware mode tools. Implementing the WE32100 core has been thanks to the processor manual and assembly language manuals that are available on BitSavers, but outside of the CPU, virtually all of my understanding of the 3B2's architecture has come from studying the ROMs and the SYSVR3 source code. I've also been helped by having remote access to a running 3B2 so I can assemble and disassemble code using the real AT&T tools. Beyond that, I have found precious little documentation. I'm at the point now where I'm pretty well stuck until I can find more information. I understand large chunks of the memory map now and should be able to do things like simulate the floppy and hard disk controller, but there are large gaps in my understanding. There are many undocumented registers that are used by the firmware, but don't appear in the SYSV source code anywhere. What they mean and what they're for is anybody's guess. I've just stubbed them out for now. If anybody has access to schematics, architecture docs, or other memory map information, I'd be eternally grateful if you could share it! -Seth

10 years, 7 months

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PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning

by jhfinedp3k＠compsys.to

>Noel Chiappa wrote: >OK, so I finally got set up to scan manuals, with a scanner with a document >feeder, so I don't have to sit there and feed the beast! So now I can scan in >a number of 'missing' (online, at least) PDP-11 manuals which I happen to >have. > >The first thing through the machine was the DZV11 Technical Manual (which >Paul Anderson was gracious enough to loan out, to enable it to be put online >- thanks Paul!), now available here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/EK-DZV11-TM-001_Jun78.pdf > >(as always, please download/distribute/replicate to other repositories). >I also did the 11/34 cache board user manual, now here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/EK-KK11A-UG-001_Oct78.pdf > I was able to look at both manuals. THANK YOU!! However, both of the directories at the next level up are blocked. If there is any possibility that both these directories could be made available to allow the other PDF files to be viewed, that would be appreciated. If not, a list of the actual links to the other PDF files which are available to be viewed would be appreciated. Also, do you have any files of source code or binary distributions of RT-11 files? I have a number of RT-11 DOC sets which I am no longer using: V05.05 RT-11 DOC set V05.04G RT-11 DOC set V05.02 RT-11 DOC set I am not positive about the latter two, but the V05.05 RT-11 DOC set is probably available unless Jay West wants it now rather than waiting for the V05.07 RT-11 DOC set. Since not of these dead tree RT-11 DOC sets are bound, they would be easy to (automatically) scan - except that each of the RT-11 DOC sets is approximately 5,000 pages and both sides must be scanned for a total of about 10,000 pages each. Since the V05.07 RT-11 DOC set is already scanned and available as many PDF files, there may not be any interest in the prior versions. Please let me know. If no one is interested, then I will start discarding them in a few months. I have promised to send the dead tree version of my V05.07 RT-11 DOC set to Jay West, but that will wait until I am on the other side of the green rug - or at least close enough. Jerome Fine

10 years, 7 months

1
0
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Clearpoint Q-RAM 11 chip locations

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

Documentation for the Clearpoint Q-RAM 11 board seems to be rather scarce; all I could find was a user manual, with no technical info (manual or prints or other documentation) online. (I'd be glad to be proved wrong! :-) So as part of a project I needed to figure out which memory chips were which; now that I've worked it out, I'm putting that info online here in the archives, where eventually Google will find it, and make it available to anyone who needs it. So, looking at the card from the component side, with the handle at the top, and the contact fingers at the bottom, there's an array of memory chips 12 columns wide, and 6 rows high; I see no ID system on the card, so I number the columns A-L (from the left), and the rows 0-5 (from the top). The card can have 4 banks of 128KB each, for a max total of 512KB. The chip-bit relationship is pretty random: Bank 0 - Columns A, E, I: 01 I2 02 E5 04 I3 010 A5 020 A4 040 A2 0100 A0 0200 A1 0400 E3 01000 A3 02000 E0 04000 E4 010000 E1 020000 E2 040000 I1 0100000 I0 Bank 1 - Columns B, F, J: Bank 2 - Columns C, G, K: Bank 3 - Columns D, H, L: The banks 2/3 column assignments are a guess, not verified as yet. The bit allocation seems to be the same in all banks; I tried a few in bank 1, and they matched the ones in bank 0 (suitably offset in column, of course). Noel

10 years, 7 months

1
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release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, incl. Intel ISIS

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Dave G4UGM > although ENIAC first ran a program it was stored as acoustic waves I don't think ENIAC used acoustic delay storage? Perhaps what you're thinking of is that in the original ENIAC usage, there was no 'program' as we now think of that term; the machine had to be configured (via connecting up computing units with cables) for each separate problem, i.e. more 'configurable' than 'programmable' (at least in the Turing machine sense). Hence the debate over whether it or the Baby was the first 'computer'. Noel

10 years, 7 months

3
4
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A poltergeist in my machine?

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Jerry Weiss > Check if the -5v charge pump is stable and supplying the correct voltage. > I recall a problem ... in which the on board pump went slowly bad. > Depending on the data content and tolerance margins for the memory > chips, we saw very erratic problems. That doesn't sound like my problem; this board was _consistently_ failing hard (would not write _any_ data, no-how, no-where), and then *poof* it was pretty consistently totally working (passing memory diags, etc). And the change from 'consistently not working at all' to 'working completely' happened when I 'touched' (see below) that pin with a probe. So either i) it was pure coincidence (possible, I suppose), or ii) there was some wierd causality. > From: Jon Elson > 1. There was a conductive hair on the board, and you knocked it off > with the probe. I'd brushed the board pretty comprehensively with a toothbrush to get all the dust off. (Yeah, I know, static - but it's pretty humid here right at the moment! ;-) > 2. There was a bad solder joint and the pressure of the probe broke > through the oxide. ... This is my highest probability guess. ... > 3. The chip has a bad internal wire bond, and the pressure on the lead > made it work. Well, I was using a DIP clip, so the pressure on the pin was pretty consistent before and after. Yeah, attaching the 'scope probe to the second pin would have wiggled the clip a tiny bit, but I'm still dubious. My current best guess, after sleeping on it, relates to the fact that the 'magic' pin was an output from a delay line. Delay lines, in that era, were apparently potted confections of inductors and capacitors. So maybe the extra current drain with the probe on somehow affected one (or more) of the capacitors in the delay line? A total WAG, but it's very mysterious! Noel

10 years, 7 months

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release dates of early microcomputer operating systems,

by Wayne.Smith＠warnerbros.com

> Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 03:03:05 -0600 > From: Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: release dates of early microcomputer operating systems, > incl. Intel ISIS > > Are you sure ISIS (one) didn't have disk support? I thought that was > shipped with the first Intel MDS-DOS floppy systems for use on the > MDS-800 in 1975. A 1975 edition of the MDS-DOS Operator's Manual is > listed among other Intel manuals at: > > http://www.intel-vintage.info/aboutme.htm Looked up the copyright registration for the manual and related items: A712678. MDS-DOS diskette operating system operator's manual 79 p. Add. ti: Intel diskette operating system microcomputer development System MDS-DOS operator's manual. (c) Intel Corporation; 22Dec75. A712670. Intel diskette operating system microcomputer development System MDS-DOS hardware reference manual. 1 v. (c) Intel Corporation; 15Dec75.

10 years, 7 months

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DEC Alpha 3000 Model 600

by rodsmallwood52＠btinternet.com

I thought it might be nice to have a DEC based graphics work station. I had the Alpha, a high res monitor and the Hobbyist Media CD for ALPHAVMS 8,3. (yes the system supports 8.3) SFSG .. So CD in the drive and switch on. First a nice colour graphics demo/test. Then the nomal system level stuff. >>> prompt, enter SHO DEV and our CD drive shows as DKA400 just where it should be. So Boot DKA400: and off we go. After a while a menu appears from which you can load layered products you need. It gets part way through the load and falls over with a data error. The cd is a real bought and paid for Media CD and is not a copy. Before I do a lot of tedious emaling (HP have taken the Hobbyist program in house) has anybody successfully loaded an Alpha with ALPHA VMS 8.3? Regards Rod

10 years, 7 months

5
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ZX Spectrum disk interfaces

by lproven＠gmail.com

A question born only of idle curiosity. In thge 1980s, I bought an MGT +D disk interface for the Sinclair ZX Spectrum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%2BD In the end, I traded mine in for its upmarket cousin, the DISCiPLE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DISCiPLE (I link to WP as I originally wrote those articles, IIRC. :-) ) I have noticed that multiple people have now cloned the +D: http://sintech-shop.co.uk/sinclair/-d-disk-interface-clone/a-6196/ http://www.rwapsoftware.co.uk/spectrum/spectrum_storage.html#plusd But this post, from FB, claims that the Beta Disk interface can handle high-density drives, giving 1.5MB per disk: https://www.facebook.com/groups/speccy4ever/permalink/1237322356346334/ Given that HD floppies and drives are far more readily-available than DD these days, how come most 8-bit interfaces can only handle DD? Is it purely a data rate issue? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R)

10 years, 8 months

1
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PDP-11 manuals scanned/scanning

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

OK, so I finally got set up to scan manuals, with a scanner with a document feeder, so I don't have to sit there and feed the beast! So now I can scan in a number of 'missing' (online, at least) PDP-11 manuals which I happen to have. The first thing through the machine was the DZV11 Technical Manual (which Paul Anderson was gracious enough to loan out, to enable it to be put online - thanks Paul!), now available here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/EK-DZV11-TM-001_Jun78.pdf (as always, please download/distribute/replicate to other repositories). I also did the 11/34 cache board user manual, now here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/EK-KK11A-UG-001_Oct78.pdf I have also gone through my set of manuals and prepared a list of all the ones which aren't online. I will slowly be scanning these in, but if anyone has a particular need for any of these, please let me know, and I'll move it to the top of the queue. They are: EK-881PC-UG-003 881 Power Controller User Guide EK-H9646-UG-002 H9646-AH/AJ Cabinet System User Guide DEC-11-H40SA-B-D PDP-11/40, -11/35 (21 Inch Chassis) System Manual EK-FP11C-OP-001 FP11-C Floating Point Processor User's Manual EK-1184A-TM-PR4 11/84 Technical Reference (Preliminary) EK-1184E-TM-001 PDP-11/84 System Technical and Reference Manual EK-1184E-MG PDP-11/84-E User's and Maintenance Guide EK-DHU11-TM-001 DHU11 Technical Manual (although IIRC that last is in a glued binding, so it's not really amenable to being auto-fed unless I rip it apart, which I am loathe to do). I also have: DEC-11-HR6B-D PDP-11 Conventions Manual but that's in print format (i.e. large pages), and I'd have to hand-feed that one through my A3 scanner. The auto-feed scanner I have is an older Epson, which I got on eBay for not very much. I'm using just the Twain driver from Epson; I'm doing my scanning >from IrfanView (a _very_ useful image tool, which if you don't have it, download it, it's free) which spits out the CCITT4 TIFF's directly - and can even number the output files backwards - incredibly useful when scanning hunks of double-sided pages on a single-sided scanner! If anyone wants to get set up to scan manuals, and wants to copy what I did, let me know, and I'll provide details. Noel

10 years, 8 months

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FS: PDP-11/55

by rob＠krten.com

Hi all, I have a PDP-11/55 for sale (Ottawa, Ontario, Canada). Bids open until 2015 09 15, buyer to arrange shipping, I will have it wrapped and ready to go. Please visit: www.krten.com/~rk/museum/index.html For pictures, detailed inventory and contact info. Sealed bids via eamil please. Winner will be notified 2015 09 16, machine will be ready to ship same day. Must be shipped / picked up no later than 2015 10 09. Sold AS-IS / where is, untested, unpowered since received. Comes with H960 rack and 2 side panels. Cheers, -RK -- Robert Krten Visit me at http://www.ironkrten.com

10 years, 8 months

1
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M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure

by holm＠freibergnet.de

While checking my repaired KDJ11-A M8192 Board with xxdp I get the following error: BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5 REVISION: F0 BOOTED FROM DL3 124KW OF MEMORY NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM RESTART ADDRESS: 152000 TYPE "H" FOR HELP ! .R ZKDJB2.BIC ZKDJB2.BIC ERROR WHILE TESTING BOARD FUNCTIONS ERROR # =001166 ERROR PC =040662 043632 @ The Board is working flawlessly otherwise. Can please someone with such a CPU can do a similar test and what does this error mean? I get this error with two different J11 Chips. In the Docs ( http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/PDP11_DiagnosticHandb…) is shown thatthe test should ask for a Switch Register setting, in my case it doesn't. Is the test defective? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741

10 years, 8 months

4
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R: Re: 12" Floppy Disks

by supervinx＠libero.it

May be he's a fisherman :) They tend to oversize everything :D -------- Messaggio originale -------- Da: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> Data:15/09/2015 14:01 (GMT+01:00) A: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Oggetto: Re: 12" Floppy Disks On Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Adrian Graham wrote: > Morning folks, > I've been contacted by a teacher who's looking for any information about > 12" floppies. Am I imagining that they really existed? I'm sure I've seen > one or seen adverts for them, maybe at Bletchley Park. Others he's > contacted think he's getting confused with 12" laser discs but I'm not so > sure. > Anyone? First, how old is he? If he is under 50, then he may be looking for the EARLY_PERCEPTION 12" floppy.? "Man, those things were HUGE! ENORMOUS! When my elementary school teacher brought one into class, it was bigger than my foot!" What he is misremembering is an 8" disk. If he is over 50, then he may be looking for the FADED_MEMORIES 12" floppy.? "Man, those things were HUGE! ENORMOUS!" What he is misremembering is an 8" disk. Or, he may be looking for the CREATIVE_MARKETING 12" floppy. When TVs were round, the measurement was the diameter.? When they stopped being round, the measurement was the diagonal, or largest length.? More recently, they've started to round up.? And, now, I think that they are measuring the diagonal of the box that it is shipped in.? The diagonal of an 8" disk jacket is about 11", rounded up to 12" Very large objects tend to be remembered as even larger.? I have a [damaged] 24" platter from a hard disk.? When mentioned later, most people remember it as being "three or four feet diameter!" We have had numerous prior queries about the 12" floppies.? One tipoff is that sometimes the person asking will remember that floppies had TWO sizes, "five inch" and "twelve inch".? 3.5" will either be called "three inch", or "hard disks"!? It is simply a misremembering of eight inch. As Eric pointed out, floppies STARTED at 8", and went DOWN from there. But, could we be wrong? Of course. But, I'm willing to bet $20 that nobody can send me a 12" floppy. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred???? cisin at xenosoft.com

10 years, 8 months

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Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics SR settings?)

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

More testing this evening. Drive 1 ran for 8 ten-minute AJRLIA read-write passes before I stopped it, with a single error flagged during pass 6: WD1 0235 WD2 0000 ER 4001 CB 1117 indicating a Data CRC error and a Read header without CRC command. Not completely unexpected, a lot of data is being read and written and there is a soft error rate of 1 in 10^9 bits and hard error rate of 1 in 10^12, IIRC. Meanwhile I keyed in the Oscillating Seek program from the RL01/02 Users Guide manual (page C-6) and set it for 511 cylinders. It seeks without any problems swinging the head from Track 0 to Track 511 and back, on both drives. No Fault, no nothing except seeking. Perhaps I was overthinking the "wrong command" theory. I did reseat the 2708 EPROM (state machine) on the controller card. One VERY interesting thing I learned from a close reading of the manual and this test program though: The controller reports Ready status *immediately* when a seek command is given, even though the seek has not completed!! (pg. 5-15, para 5.3.4) And that seek can take up to 100 ms for 511 tracks on an RL02. A long time in computer terms, even at 1.6 us per instruction cycle... Now I'm wondering if AJRLHA diagnostic doesn't wait long enough for the seek to complete before trying something else. The Oscillating Seek does (by calling for a dummy Read Header command). Still don't understand the Write error that shouldn't have been there from that diagnostic... Not happening tonight though. I can run RL2FMT on either drive, boot OS/8 with no problems (other than the brief flash of both Fault lights), PIP files from one drive to the other. Could OS/8 do its initial Seek without waiting long enough for it to complete, too? Would love to hear from any experts on the internal workings of OS/8 especially relating to RL02's. -Charles

10 years, 8 months

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Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics SR settings?)

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

Recall that the other day, I was seeing this on running AJRLHA.DG: STATE NOT 5 AFTER SEEK WITH 0 DIFFERENCE (this error and register dump prints twice in succession. State 5 = Lock-on, keeping on track). WD1 0317 (lower head, heads not out, spin-down) WD2 0204 (write data error, write gate error). This one worries me. WDE is "write gate on but no transitions on write data line". The drive should never be trying to write when there is no data being sent, and this diagnostic program does not do any writes to disk! So a fault, head retraction and shutdown is the proper response to this fatal error. I'll have to put a logic analyzer on the appropriate bits and see why it thinks it's supposed to be writing... or where the command came from. ERROR FLAG SET ER 2000 (Operation incomplete within 200 ms). Probably because the drive shut down when the WDE error occurred. CB 0003 (Seek) Today the fault immediately on starting the test is still present (and yes, Henk, it did occur to me that there might be something wrong with the diagnostic because all the others work! Has anyone got the source code for AJRLHA?) However, there are different initial errors today! Diagnostic starts (Fault light comes on immediately): Prints this block twice: Error flag set ER 2002 (Operation incomplete, Drive error) CB 0103 (12-bit data mode, Seek state). <--- This seems to be OK, 8-bit mode is required for Maintenance, Get Status or Read Header, but not Seek command) then Error flag set ER 2000, CB 0103; (same as above but no Drive error) Fault light goes off; then ER not as expected but error flag not set: WD1 0235 (Heads out, upper head locked on track) WD2 0002 (volume check bit) ER 0003 (Drive error; Drive ready); WD1 0335 (same except lower head) WD2 0002 (volume check bit) ER 0003 (Drive error; Drive ready); Per the user's manual, the Fault light only comes on with the following errors: 1 Drive-select error, 2 Seek time-out error, 3 Write current in heads (during sector time) error, 4 Loss of system clock (this condition is not latched and not represented in status word), 5 Write-protect error, 6 Write data error, 7 Spin error. I am confident that the reported fault is not 1, 4, 5 or 7. The drive is being selected properly, works except on initial test, the write protect switch is not set, and the drive stays spinning with Ready light on when not being accessed. However, that still leaves a seek time-out (reported today) or a write error (seen two days ago) when there shouldn't *be* any writes. I really want to find out why the drive previously thought it was being told to write, at the wrong time. I just had a new idea: What if a command register is being corrupted between the setting by the program, and the drive electronics? Say a Write Data command (CB xxx5) is erroneously received by the drive but the proper registers for a write have not been set up. That would Fault the drive and the diagnostic would report an error. Another example: The diagnostic is issuing the proper Seek command (CB xxx3), but the drive is actually receiving something else, so the expected seek would time-out in the diagnostic, and depending on the command the drive actually is reading, could light the Fault too . When attempting to run Dumprest for RL during the previous session, I had to add retries for seeking because the program would halt with a seek error there too. So I'm now suspicious of an intermittent or partial short (another whisker?) between the command registers and the drive. Maybe it's not "hearing" the controller properly! It's even got the correct expensive DEC cables between the card and the drives, and a terminator on the farthest drive. Jon wrote: >I'm pretty far away from competence on PDP-8s anymore, but the symptoms >sound like maybe the drive faults on LONG seeks, but as long as the seeks >are short, it works OK. There might be a one-shot in the controller that >allows so many ms for a seek to complete, and due to aging capacitors, the >delay is now too short. But, that's a totally wild guess, there could be >troubles in the drive seek electronics that only occur on longer seeks. That's an interesting SWAG, thanks :) I checked the 22 uf capacitor (and 39K resistor) that provide the timeout delay. They are OK. If anything the 22 uf is well on the high side, thus giving a longer delay. Time to toggle in some more programs I guess. What really bugs me is that this whole system was completely working for years... up until it didn't :P

10 years, 8 months

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Control Data 160

by bpettitx＠comcast.net

Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: Subject: Re: Control Data 160 Ebay I believe the eBay lister stated that it was a 160, not the -A. So no return jump for you... --Chuck Which would make it even more scarce. There were only a little over a 100 of the 160 models made. And 40+ of them were rebranded as NCR machines. There were 495 160-As made officially. (There were also a small number shipped without serial numbers to the good people at Langley.) I know of at least 5x 160-As still in existence, besides my own. Which should be going to a museum this week if they can sort out shipping glitches. My system includes a 161-A Typewriter in lousy shape and a 167-2 Card Reader in perfect shape. Plus all manuals, software (with listings) and spare parts. Even the paper tape rewinder! I did not know any 160 machines survived, so who ever bought it has a unique item. I have looked for 15 years for an 8092 = the first true 8 bit computer. Haven't found even a hint or rumor of one. I am working with Al Kossow, to see that this material is eventually in his archives. Billy Pettit

10 years, 8 months

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M8192 KDJ11-A ZKDJB2 XXDP Test Failure

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Holm Tiffe > "Ensure that halt trap option is disabled (jumper W9 installed)." Well, either that was transcribed incorrectly, or the person who wrote it confused. On the M8192, per EK-KDJ1A-UG-002, pg. 2-1, W_5_ is the halt trap option, and W9 is... BEVENT recognition. One removes W9 to enable the LTC (using the QBUS BEVNT line). Which kind of explains your results... :-) Noel PS: BTW, the M8190 (KDJ11-B) in similar - the onboard ROM diagostics barf if the LTC isn't on (i.e. the switch on the chassis to enable BEVNT has to be on).

10 years, 8 months

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21MX proms (per request

by gerardcjat＠free.fr

That triggers again a question I had for a while ... HOW OFTEN theses old PROM fail ?? Who had been through this problem and does it "really" worth to have some blanks "just in case" ?? --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

10 years, 8 months

6
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Control Data 160

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Mark Linimon > excellent post. Ditto. Thanks for sharing those memories, and history, with us, Mr. Pettit! Noel

10 years, 8 months

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Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics SR settings?)

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

As previously posted, reseating the boot ROMs in their sockets cured the corrupted boot loader issue. Got lucky there :) In my system there are two RL02 drives. I will call them "Top" and "Bottom" here, after their physical locations. I put the OS/8 pack that had been acting strangely in the bottom drive (faulting the disk and halting the 8/A when OS/8 was interrupted with Ctrl-C) in the top drive, and switched unit plugs. It works perfectly there! Ctrl-C returns to the "." prompt as expected. The pack I formatted also still reads four 4000+ blocks partitions when switched to the bottom drive. As before, the AJRLHA diagnostic (Seek/Fctn) still faults and prints errors, but only at the start of testing the drive. Thereafter that drive shows no errors. Then the program will switch to the other drive and the same problem occurs. Specifically (edited and reformatted for clarity, with results interpreted from the RL02 user manual): (Ready light goes out, Fault light on) STATE NOT 5 AFTER SEEK WITH 0 DIFFERENCE (this error and register dump prints twice in succession. State 5 = Lock-on, keeping on track). WD1 0317 (lower head, heads not out, spin-down) WD2 0204 (write data error, write gate error). This one worries me. WDE is "write gate on but no transitions on write data line". The drive should never be trying to write when there is no data being sent, and this diagnostic program does not do any writes to disk! So a fault, head retraction and shutdown is the proper response to this fatal error. I'll have to put a logic analyzer on the appropriate bits and see why it thinks it's supposed to be writing... or where the command came from. ERROR FLAG SET ER 2000 (Operation incomplete within 200 ms). Probably because the drive shut down when the WDE error occurred. CB 0003 (Seek) (Fault light goes out) ER NOT AS EXPECTED BUT ERROR FLAG NOT SET (prints this block twice) WD1 0235 (heads out, lock-on, keeping on track) WD2 0002 (Volume check bit, no errors) ER 0003 (Drive Error and Drive Ready) CB 1004 (8-bit mode, Read Header) BAD STATUS RECEIVED FROM DRIVE (also prints this block twice) WD1 ACTUAL 0235 (heads out, lock-on, keeping on track) WD2 ACTUAL 0002 (volume check bit) WD1 EXPECTED 0234 (heads out, seek - track counting) WD2 EXPECTED 0000 (no errors) Some of these errors look like a "cascade"... because the first false-write error occurred, the others are flagged before the drive can become ready again. Then it goes on to run for about 10 mins, flickering the Ready light constantly so it's very dim, obviously accessing as fast as it can. No further errors. Next the program switches to drive 1 and the results are identical, except the "STATE NOT 5" message has WD1 0217 (upper head, heads not out, spin-down). So only the Seek diagnostic is giving errors... the AJRLIA diagnostic (Read/Write) and 'KA (Performance Exerciser) do not show errors. Writes the entire pack and reads it with no errors. I suspect it has automatic error retry but without the source code, that is speculation. Anyhow it may be time to break out the scope and RL02 service manual and check some settings and waveforms... But I still think this is actually a problem with the RL8A controller and not *both* RL02's, since both drives return the same errors, and never had problems like this before... Any help making sense of this mishmash of errors would be greatly appreciated :) -Charles

10 years, 8 months

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punchcard svg file available

by gerardcjat＠free.fr

@ simski, who wrote : >Hi, > Hmm. russian carsds. sounds interesting. I'm certainly interested in > their looks. could you post a scan of one of them? Well, they very much look ( and feel ) like original IBM ones, with : - Right angles : NO rounded corners - Characters printed : standard 0 to 9 row numbers with 1 to 80 column numbers over "0" ligne and "9" ligne - only two cyrilic "labels" (??) printed sideway at the leading and trailing edge of the card. Color is what ** I ** call light brown, but there is certainly a more accurate word for it, something like "bistre" ?? All the prints are printed quite "light" and I am not sure it will go through scan correctly (!!) . I will try next week ( scanner un-connected right now ;-) ) If interested ( as collector's item ?? ) , I may send a couple. PM me. --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

10 years, 8 months

1
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Control Data 160

by bpettitx＠comcast.net

"wmachacek" <wmachacek at q.com>wrote: Subject: Control Data 160 I have a CDC "160 Computer Programming Manual" that I obtained many years ago when I was working with CDC equipment. This manual caught my eye and I squirreled it away since we were using the 160-A computers not the 160s. This manual has a publication number of 023a and a date of 1960. The picture shown inside the manual is pretty much like the one described herein. It shows the dropped side panels. The manual shows the Ferranti paper tape reader and the BRPE paper tape punch as standard equipment. As optional equipment it shows Ampex magnetic tape handlers (FR300 or FR400), an 80 column punched card reader (no maker listed), an 80 column card punch (no maker listed), a line printer (no maker listed), a Soroban-modified IBM electric typewriter, and a digital communications line buffer. This manual has 45 pages and shows a full view of the computer and a close-up of the front panel. I always kept this as a kind of a CDC oddity as I had heard that the 160s were a proto type and never actually went into production. At least that is what I heard back then. I hope this information kind of helps to better identify these computers. Bill ............................................... Bill, I have a copy of that manual here and was just looking at it. I believe I have all of the 160 and 160-A documentation and software. I have been giving it all to Al Kossaw to add to bitsavers. He is overloaded with so much that needs scanning, that it may be a while before getting posted. The early 160's used IBM punched card equipment. The 088 was the usual card reader of choice. Punching was via an IBM 523 or 521.. Printing was on a 1402 or 407. All these devices used an adaptor called the 1610. Later, printing shifted to the Analex 1000 lpn drum printer. Horrible machine to work on. A cheaper printer also became available: the 501 drum printer. It was made by Holley Carburator! I think it was their only venture into computerdom. Very unreliable machine, used Teflon hammer assemblies. I never saw a straight line of printing on any of those machines. Much of my early career at CDC was swapping out the foreign peripherals and replacing them with CDC ones. Including the Ferranti Paper Tape Reader. I'm a little hurt that the 160 is thought to never have gone into production. I was a customer engineer in the Twin Cities area and worked on lots of them, including some that went to NCR. Even Honeywell used them to test production .transducers. This was the first 12 bit machine, and went into production in 1958. It was extremely reliable. Other than paper tape gear and typewriter repairs, the only failures I can remember are burned out light bulbs and push button switches. Its main signifigance was the development of processing the peripheral operations so the large mainframes were freed up for the big jobs. That lead to the 6600, 7600 and the Cyber Series of computers. Even today, I/O is staged so the big processors are freed up. The 160 was a Seymor Cray design. The 160-A was designed by James Pederson in the early 1960's. It was at the request of several customers who needed more peripheral processing power in the fledling space industry. Most of the early 160-A sales were to the aerospace industry. I first worked on them while in the Army. They were used on missile engine test fixtures in Humtsville, Alabama. Incredibly reliable machines. My personal machine (s/n 190) is still working, complete with all origianl parts. Made in 1963. 52 yers old and still chugging along. Sadly, I had to give it up for health reasons. It's now on its way to a Museum. Billy Pettit

10 years, 8 months

3
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Tandy CoCo Joystick Adapter

by iridius＠yahoo.com

Greetings cctalk list .. I'm about to do a one time run of some CoCo 3 Joystick adapter PCB's. Using this simple PCB, along with one IC, 8 resistors, some wire and the two connectors, an adapter can be built to adapt an Atari style 9 pin Joystick to a CoCo 6 pin DIN, allowing one to use a digital joystick with their Tandy Color Computer. More info at .. http://www.lemon64.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=57859

10 years, 8 months

1
0
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C-64 / Epyx FastLoad bug(s)? Workaround?

by drlegendre＠gmail.com

Anyone here using (or have used) a C-64 with the venerable Epyx FastLoad cartridge? I'm running into a VERY annoying bug, and would like to know what if anything is known about it. Bug works like this.. Use the FL "$" command to display the disk directory. Immediately after, try to save a program to disk that has a certain number of chars in the filename in common with another filename on the disk. For instance [SAVE "PROGRAM03",8] when a file (or files) named "PROGRAM01", 'PROGRAM02", etc. already exist. The bug results in a 74 "drive not ready" error, and the save fails. Sometimes picking a more unique filename will allow a save. Other times, it seems no filename will allow a save. Only way I've found to get around the error is to load a different file.. which is no good, as it will overwrite the one in memory. So far, I've only noted the bug when working with BASIC files. What's up with this? Is there a workaround?

10 years, 8 months

1
0
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WTB: Teletype parts

by drlegendre＠gmail.com

Need the following items for an ex-Bell System Model 15 TTY: Keycaps - F K L C V B N with punctuation symbols, rather than fractions. I have a set with fractions to sell or swap. Keycaps - CARR RET and NULL (blank). These are missing. Platen crank - This is missing. Think that's all for now. I put out a word on Greenkeys but haven't had any luck, though I'd try the ever-helpful classicmp list! Please contact off-list where appropriate. Thank you!

10 years, 8 months

1
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Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics SR settings?)

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

Update: The first thing I tried was removing and reseating the boot ROMs (465A2/469A2), since they did not use good machine-tooled sockets. Now the boot loader performs normally, no incorrect locations, and OS/8 boots from Drive 0 whether using the boot key or manual start at 0001. Great! So of course, ANOTHER new problem shows up... OS/8 boots and runs, will run PFOCAL, BASIC, give directory listings... But when I hit a Ctrl-C (for example, during a directory listing), Drive 0 Ready goes out, the Fault lamp lights and OS/8 halts. The last instruction showing on the display is 07605, 6213 (CDF CIF 1). I can hit the boot key and as soon as the drive becomes ready again, presumably relocating track 0, the system boots back to the "." prompt. The DF/IF logic is on the same Option 2 board with the bootstrap and auto-restart circuitry. Maybe there's yet another bad connection I have now disturbed... Time to start running diagnostics again! I am really feeling like I'm on a snipe hunt here... sigh. This system was working for many years up until about 2 years ago, then it all went to pot.

10 years, 8 months

2
1
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bendix GE-15?

by w2hx＠w2hx.com

I think someone on one of the lists was inquring about this. Some items that might be of interest http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Vintage-Bendix-G-15-Mainframe-Computer-Circuit… http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Vintage-Bendix-G-15-Mainframe-Computer-DA-1-In… and a bunch of magazine advertisements Eugene

10 years, 8 months

5
4
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information about the Bendix G-15 and Rice Research Computer?

by linimon＠lonesome.com

So I have finally been prodded by some people to put together a web page for the G-15 computer. As well, I am going to put up information about the Rice Research Computer (later known as the R1), and its intended succesor, the R2. Right now my web pages are pretty skeletal and mostly consist of some old G-15 documentation scans I did in early 2000. Apparently I have some things that are not on Bitsavers (yet). I have at least one more document that I need to scan, the Technical Manual. I do have some R1 documentation which I intend to scan and then send to either CHM or Rice University Fondren Library. To some of you that I have already contacted off-list, this will be duplicate information. Sorry about that. To the others, please let me know if you have any information about these computers that you would be willing to share publicly. Also, beta-testers of the website would be appreciated; email me off- list for the URLs. I mean, it it _really_ skeletal (e.g. 2 days old.) mcl

10 years, 8 months

6
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Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

>So, either something is corrupting the bus, or the memory is bad. > >Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I got this right, you wrote the boot >code by hand into memory, single-stepped it, and after a while, you had >bad contents in memory. > >Now, execution here would only be reading from memory, and not writing >to it. Furthermore, this is MOS, so it does not get rewritten on reads. >That would, to me, suggest that the memory board is the problem. >Do you have any other memory board around? > >Johnny I mistyped while doing many things at once. (It appears that the memory does NOT change while single stepping through it by hand. Fortunately.) See my update - reseating the ROMs fixed the boot corruption problem. I am not sure if the 32K SRAM board actually reads and rewrites - it does not do so internally, it's just SRAM and a couple of bus buffers. Whether the 8/A memory cycle does rewrite each time or not, I don't know. Now I've got yet another RL02 (maybe) problem to chase down... -Charles

10 years, 8 months

2
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Even more PDP-8/A weirdness (was: Re: PDP-8 diagnostics SR settings?)

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

Since the computer doesn't mind doing boring, repetitive tasks, I set the 11/23+ to yet again remaking the bootable RL02 pack (3 hrs at 9600 baud while I did other things). Plunked it in (without the programmer's panel connected), hit the boot switch on the limited function panel, and it fired right up to the "." prompt. Did a directory of the free space which printed, set the date to 11 Sep 75, and had a phone call for a while. Back to the console, entered R BUILD (just to do the PR, not save it) and system halts. Reboot - back to the same crap of fault light flashes on the drives, no boot. Sigh. So I hooked up the programmer's panel, flaky though it may be, (just not touching the SR) and discovered that some of the bootstrap routine is being corrupted in zero page! And not the same Bit 4 as before, and not all the time... a 4027 (JMS IO) got changed to 4007, the constant of 0377 changed to 0017, the 6601 RL02 instruction was now a 6401, etc. Still always middle bits though. Now, the secondary bootstrap (from the RL pack) does overwrite the zero page including the running boot code. (The first read from the pack is 200[octal] words, or one page). The boot routine never sets the MA address register so it could be overwriting core starting at 0000. The boot listing comments say execution does not continue in the primary boot (at 0001-0035), from the last IO call at the point when the RLCB function causes the page of data to be read from the disk into core. But the changes I'm seeing aren't right, regardless. The OS/8 boot routine would never use a 6401 (an IOT for a secondary console device, in this case my Omni-USB)... Next I pulled the RL8A out of the backplane and tried manually entering and single-stepping through the boot code, skipping manually over the RLSD instruction in the disk IO subroutine. That didn't seem to corrupt the code. Hit the Boot key (with the RL8A still removed) and those three or four words are wrong again, the same way. Thus verifying that the changes are not coming from the secondary boot on the disk! If I remember correctly, the boot ROMs have to load the boot routine into core at 0001-0035 (done by hardware on one of the three-board set) and then start execution at 0001. I thought this might be bit-rot in the ROMs, so I tried toggling in the bootstrap code to those locations and single-stepping beginning at 0001 after a few loops through showed the code changed again. Remember, the RL8A is not present in the bus. So the fault can't be on that card! I'm thinking something else is loading part of the memory data bus when it should not be, which is either on the CPU or it's a problem with the 32K memory card itself. Now that I think about it, when I discovered the problem on our clone panel a couple of days ago, I also found a couple of core locations that had been corrupted in the restrl program, not in page 0 though. Figured that was also artifact of the buggy panel, but now it's looking like something else. The only things in the backplane now are the 3-board set, the 32k card, and the Omni-USB. Today I have discovered a pattern to the corruption! Addr Orig. Altered 0005 4027 4007 0011 6615 6415 0015 7325 7005 0021 1026 1006 0025 0377 0017 0031 6601 6401 Notice the middle 4 bits are always being set to 0000 which is an open-circuit (on the Omnibus a logic-1 is pulled down to 0 volts). I am not sure of the significance of the repeating address pattern yet. Not only that, those locations *only* are wrong after the BOOT key (or switch) is toggled. Running from loc. 1 by (0001, LA, RUN) does NOT corrupt the bootstrap in core (with the RL8A still removed, so the DMA facility doesn't factor into it). An even more important finding is that if I manually clear the bootstrap code by depositing 0000 in all its locations, when I hit the BOOT key, it deposits the "altered" version into core! No wonder the machine won't boot... still unsure as to why it did the first time yesterday, though. So now I need to look at the boot ROM circuitry which is on Option 2 board M8317. There are not three ROMs, DEC used some weird packing scheme to fit into two 256x4 ROMs. Most likely there is a 4-bit latch or an open-collector buffer chip that is flaky. I'd just yank the board and try booting without it, but the IF and DF registers (for memory extension beyond 4K) are also on that card so OS/8 would crash... And the best news of all so far: I keyed in the boot loader by hand, started it manually at 0001... and OS/8 booted from Drive 0 which confirms that the boot ROM area is the cause! Now to track it down... I sure hope it's not another solder whisker. Meanwhile, I used the system for over half an hour, running PFOCAL, formatting disk packs in Drive 1, checking the handlers loaded with BUILD. All working. -Charles

10 years, 8 months

2
1
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punchcard svg file available

by gerardcjat＠free.fr

Shall I understand that some of you guys, are looking for blank punch/punched cards ?? I have about a hundred ( here in .... France !! ) Let me know if this can help. These came from ex Soviet Union, and, as far as I can tell, they "fell and taste" like original IBM cards that was used to "play" with some 40 years ago. --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

10 years, 8 months

2
1
0 0

internet blocking problem ?

by hollandia＠ccountry.net

Per your request, I tried the URL: http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html I did the search you requested, and tried the following URLs: http://members.iinet.com.au/~stepho/mick.htm http://members.iinet.net.au/~pontipak/redsquare.html http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/stories.html http://www.iinet.net.au/~rmine/gctrebs.html http://www.iinet.net.au/~worcom http://members.iinet.net.au/~janwyllie/ http://members.iinet.net.au/~tom-hunter/ http://www.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/ http://members.iinet.net.au/~jacob/worldtp.html In every case shown above, the result was the same: The server at members.iinet.net.au is taking too long to respond. Only two of the sites I tried gave a different result. They were: http://members.iinet.net.au/~glrmc/ It gave me a blank page. and http://members.iinet.net.au/~margretr/ It gave the following error message: "XML Parsing Error: unexpected parser state Location: jar:file:///C:/Program%20Files/Mozilla% 20Firefox/browser/omni.ja!/chrome/browser/content/browser/aboutNetError.xhtml Line Number 335, Column 68: <div id="ed_connectionFailure">&connectionFailure.longDesc;</div>" My particulars are: 7:59 PM 9/10/2015 Gateway computer, connected by modem. Windows XP Professional v5.1 Firefox 35.0.1 Computer Country (ccountry.net) Medford, Oregon USA IP address: 12.73.18.147 You're welcome! Kurt > > So, I wonder if I can ask classiccmp members, especially in > the US, to check if they can view this page: > http://members.iinet.net.au/~daveb/simplex/simplex.html > > > If you want to do some more research, just Google > members.iinet and you will see a lot of hits of the form: > http://members.iinet.net.au/~some_name > > Thanks for any help or info you can offer! > > Jon > > >

10 years, 8 months

1
0
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FS: three PDP-11 boards

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

I was going through my board collection and found three PDP-11 boards I've never used in years and don't see a foreseeable need. No idea of condition, but they're visually clean and neat, stored in antistatic bags. The serial cards came out of (my) working 11/23+ but I've not tested them (since I already have a 16-line card and only 2 terminals). I have (one each): M7957 DZV11-M Quad height 4-line serial card M8053 DMV11 "Microprogram Control" synchronous controller card Dilog CQ1610 16-line serial card. Make any reasonable offers. + shipping from US zip 65775. thanks Charles

10 years, 8 months

1
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Control Data 160

by wmachacek＠q.com

I have a CDC "160 Computer Programming Manual" that I obtained many years ago when I was working with CDC equipment. This manual caught my eye and I squirreled it away since we were using the 160-A computers not the 160s. This manual has a publication number of 023a and a date of 1960. The picture shown inside the manual is pretty much like the one described herein. It shows the dropped side panels. The manual shows the Ferranti paper tape reader and the BRPE paper tape punch as standard equipment. As optional equipment it shows Ampex magnetic tape handlers (FR300 or FR400), an 80 column punched card reader (no maker listed), an 80 column card punch (no maker listed), a line printer (no maker listed), a Soroban-modified IBM electric typewriter, and a digital communications line buffer. This manual has 45 pages and shows a full view of the computer and a close-up of the front panel. I always kept this as a kind of a CDC oddity as I had heard that the 160s were a proto type and never actually went into production. At least that is what I heard back then. I hope this information kind of helps to better identify these computers. Bill

10 years, 8 months

1
0
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PDP-11 architecture Was: internet blocking problem ?

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Jon Elson elson > I actually LIKED the PDP-11 architecture quite a LOT, but the limited > memory was a big killer. The good thing about the PDP-11 was the 16-bit word size. (It resulted in what's probably the most elegant architecture, in bang/buck terms, of all time.) The bad thing about the PDP-11 was the 16-bit word size. (For the reason you point out.) Noel

10 years, 8 months

6
12
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punchcard svg file available

by simski＠dds.nl

Hi All, just to let you know that i've made a vector graphics file for A hollerith punchcard. https://hack42.nl/wiki/Bestand:Punchcard.svg enjoy -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl

10 years, 8 months

23
60
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internet blocking problem ?

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Jon Elson > so MANY others who could not access the members.iinet page were finding > they got stopped at cogentco. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well, to be precise 'Cogentco was the last node on the route which responded'. It's impossible to say whether i) that node tossed packets that tried to go further; ii) it forwarded them to some other node (identity unknown) which did toss them (and didn't allow/handle traceroute), etc. One can't draw any conclusions about whether it's i) from the fact that it's _also_ still responding to traceroute packets sent to that address: one would have to know whether it does the a) 'is this packet to a destination I'm filtering' check before it does the b) 'I decremented the TTL and it's now zero', or the other way around. If b) it could be the node that's dropping the packets. But given that other 'last hops' are also producing similar results, I'm still thinking it's Ii.net which is tossing the packets, not the 'last hop' one can see on traceroutes. Noel

10 years, 8 months

2
1
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PDP-11 architecture Was: internet blocking problem ?

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Johnny Billquist > it really is a few bits short of perfect ... > .. when you look at the EIS and FPP extensions, which could not > retain the general instruction layout format because of a lack of bits. Well, if they'd tried to keep the same general layout, I don't think EIS, floating point, etc would have all fit in 16 bits. Maybe they should have made it a 18-bit machine? ;-) But I keep circling back to the observation that the -11 architecture's incredible flexibility/complexity ratio happened precisely _because_ it had to be crammed into 16 bits (along with a big dollop of genius :-). Given that I think the big challenge of the next generation of computer science is going to be managing complexity, it's too bad we don't teach more young CS students the -11 and UnixV6 - to show them just how much you _can_ do, with how _little_, if you put your mind to it. > I still would not consider overlays as any part of the PDP-11 > architecture. But maybe that is just me. No, I agree with you 100%. Plenty of PDP-11 OS's did not support them. Noel

10 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

IBM 026

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

who could be lucky enough to own 2 link 8s? Ed@ In a message dated 9/11/2015 10:22:34 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, wdonzelli at gmail.com writes: Yeah, about those... Warning! Warning! -- Will On Sep 11, 2015 11:06 AM, "Paul Koning" <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote: > > > On Sep 11, 2015, at 10:58 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > wrote: > > > >> From: Ed Sharpe > > > >> well SMECC needs one hopefully to make work so we can show the youn'ins > >> how cards were punched! > > > > Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good > enough > > for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money: > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725 > > Is that TWO Linc-eight systems in the background??? > > paul > >

10 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

IBM 026

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Ed Sharpe > well SMECC needs one hopefully to make work so we can show the youn'ins > how cards were punched! Well, here's an 029 (not quite what the OP was looking for, but good enough for you all, I expect) for a not insane amount of money: http://www.ebay.com/itm/281796720725 Noel

10 years, 8 months

4
3
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KDJ11-A/M8192 identified as PDT11/50 from resorc /a?

by holm＠freibergnet.de

..have repaired a HH725 Harddisk /TA7245BP was bad since a tantal Elko had a short) and booted now RT11 V5.07 with the new now repaired 1/73 CPU. Resorc /A give the following informations: .resorc /a RT-11XB (S) V05.07 Booted from DL0:RT11XB Resident Monitor base is 111774 (37884.) USR is set NOSWAP TT is set NOQUIET Indirect file abort level is ERROR Indirect file nesting depth is 3 PDT 11/150 Processor FP11 Hardware Floating Point Unit Extended Instruction Set (EIS) KT11 Memory Management Unit Cache Memory 50 Cycle System Clock Device I/O time-out support Multi-terminal support Hmm, is that normal that the CPU gets identified as PDT11/150? Interestingly it finds an FP11 but the Socket is empty. For an M8186 the output is more that what I've expected: .resorc /a RT-11XB (S) V05.07 Booted from DL0:RT11XB Resident Monitor base is 111774 (37884.) USR is set NOSWAP TT is set NOQUIET Indirect file abort level is ERROR Indirect file nesting depth is 3 PDP 11/23 Processor FP11 Hardware Floating Point Unit Extended Instruction Set (EIS) KT11 Memory Management Unit 50 Cycle System Clock Device I/O time-out support Multi-terminal support Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741

10 years, 8 months

3
3
0 0

internet blocking problem ?

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Don North > Basically see no problems accessing any of the pages on sites. > ... > 12: be2019.ccr21.lax04.atlas.cogentco.com 22.400ms asymm 8 > 13: no reply > 14: no reply > 15: ae0.cr1.mel4.on.ii.net 217.966ms asymm 19 Oh, that's really interesting. A bunch of us get as far as Cogentco, and then it stops working. But you get through... which implies that the _route_ in Cogentco to Ii.net is OK. Which in turn implies that it's Ii.net who are blocking (via packet drop, I assume), based on the IP _source_ address. So it sounds like the earlier post (too lazy to track it down) which says this is Ii.net responding to complaints from others (since they haven't blocked access to _all_ of ii.net, just that 'members' site) is right. Noel

10 years, 8 months

2
2
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Amiga 2000HD spotted, STL

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

Local electronics haunt has an Amiga 2000HD on the shelf. I was in a rush so didn't get any particulars. It did not appear to have a monitor or keyboard. Didn't see a price tag, but just from past experience I'd guess the owner tagged it around $50. I'm not in to them, no interest.. But if someone is interested I'd be happy to look further, ship, etc. J

10 years, 8 months

2
1
0 0

IBM 026

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

well SMECC needs one hopefully to make work so we can show the youn'ins how cards were punched! hopefully something to be gotten here in AZ but I am open.... Thanks Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 9/10/2015 5:27:02 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, isking at uw.edu writes: Are you looking for one to buy, to use, to study for restoration...? I know some folks who have them, but they're not for sale. :-) On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 4:59 PM, <COURYHOUSE at aol.com> wrote: > wow... that is absurd! $24,999 > someone needs rehab... > > > In a message dated 9/8/2015 4:57:08 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > hilpert at cs.ubc.ca writes: > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-IBM-26-INTERPRETING-CARD-PUNCH-OWN-A-PI > ECE-OF-HISTORY-/161725243156?hash=item25a7935f14 > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu> Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org> Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org> University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

10 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

IBM 026

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

wow... that is absurd! $24,999 someone needs rehab... In a message dated 9/8/2015 4:57:08 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, hilpert at cs.ubc.ca writes: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-VINTAGE-IBM-26-INTERPRETING-CARD-PUNCH-OWN-A-PI ECE-OF-HISTORY-/161725243156?hash=item25a7935f14

10 years, 8 months

2
1
0 0

21MX proms (per request

by marc.verdiell＠gmail.com

>From: dwight <dkelvey at hotmail.com> >If I were doing it. >First you need to find out if it needs OC output. >There are many flash parts in surface mount that can have the higher speeds. >Add some 74LVC245 to give bus drive needed, also surface mount. >All on a little PC board. There would be a lot of wasted space in the flash but what the heck. >Put an edge connector on the board to deal with programming. >All will fit in a smaller space than the original part. >Dwight That would be great engineering fun! But at less than $4 for the blanks, using the old PROMs and the vintage programmer seems pretty straightforward, vintage correct, and low risk solution. Miraculously, my best offer got accepted on ebay, so semi-affordable vintage clunky Data I/O 29B Programmer and plenty of blanks are being shipped to me :-). I count collecting vintage tools for servicing your vintage machine as part of the fun too... Marc

10 years, 8 months

10
22
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ISO: Manual for Emulex CS21/H

by JoshD＠LivingComputerMuseum.org

Anyone out there have a manual for the Emulex CS21/H (or possibly the /U variant)? This is a UNIBUS DH11 clone. (There are also /FA, /FB, /FC, and /FD variants which are DMF32 clones - and we have the manual for these but it's of no use for our CS21/H boards :)). At the very least, if anyone has the dip switch settings for this, that would be an immense help. Thanks, Josh Sr. Vintage Software Engineer Living Computer Museum www.livingcomputermuseum.org<http://www.livingcomputermuseum.org>

10 years, 8 months

4
6
0 0

DEC 8235 IC? (repost)

by simski＠dds.nl

As something went wrong in posting this question, I try to repost it here. please don't be offended by this. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi all. is there a list of equivalents for DEC ic's? I've made a mistake in attaching our BA-8 to the PDP8/f and plugged in the ribbon cable connecting connector C and D the wrong way. some magic smoke came loose and there are a few chips broken . by comparing the signals on those connectors, I made a list of suspect chips on which some pins got-15v or +15v... The M8330 board got most of the blast, resulting in 4 burned chips, but other boards could well be affected. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Met vriendelijke Groet, Simon Claessen drukknop.nl

10 years, 8 months

2
3
0 0

Wyse 370

by jan＠work.de

for both serial ports I can configure a terminal session at my Wyse 370 ASCII terminal. But I don't have any idea how to switch between sessions. Any idea or any hint where I can find a manual for this terminal?

10 years, 8 months

2
1
0 0

Wyse 370

by diegel＠work.de

for both serial ports I can configure a terminal session at my Wyse 370 ASCII terminal. But I don't have any idea how to switch between sessions. Any idea or any hint where I can find a manual for this terminal?

10 years, 8 months

2
1
0 0

21MX proms (per request)

by marc.verdiell＠gmail.com

Absolutely (assuming you count your engineering time as free), not to mention it feels rewarding to use clever engineering tricks to solve a problem instead of money. But I want to keep my machine original and vintage if I reasonably can. My programmer ended up very reasonably priced, and it is recognized as one of the better vintage programmers of that era. So it fits perfectly in my collection of higher end, historically meaningful engineering tools. Two birds with one stone, so it was a pretty easy decision. Marc >Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu>: >The median listing price for them on eBay for a 29B with pack seems to be around $3-400 which IMO is a little steep for a 30+ year >old PROM programmer. Hopefully your best offer successfully accepted was much lower! >I think the part cost on the PROMs pales in comparison. For the cost of the 29B, you could design a replacement for the original >PROM, have some boards fabricated, stuff them and you'd still be ahead a few hundred bucks ... >starts to make sense at those kind of prices, imo. >Best, >Sean

10 years, 8 months

2
1
0 0

Control Data 160

by bpettitx＠comcast.net

William Degan wrote: Comparing the 160 and 160-A manuals with the 160 in the ebay auction (252070822992) Page 37 of the 160 manual from 1960 - smaller "160" marquee sign. Page 3-1 of the 160-A marquee says "CONTROL DATA 160-A" Ebay auction says "CONTROL DATA 160" So, there were two variations of the 160 marquee/sign above the numeric display. ---- Also, if a person is looking at the front of the computer, on the top left side, there is a square cut-out / slot? in the original 160 table (purpose?). This slot does not appear on the 160-A's table (from the 1963 programming manual), nor is it present on the Ebay auction. I am thinking this was originally a "later" 160 that was probably serviced well into the 160-A days. -- Bill vintagecomputer.net Only a few 160s used the 3 small inserts in the marquee. There were used to make it easier for the NCR rebrand. The later solid sign became the CDC standard. The cut out on the left was for the BPRE-11 punch. Only the early 160's and early 1604 machines had this. The punch table was spring loaded and could be raised up to the desk top to reload paper tape. Later on, the punch was mounted on a tray that slid out to the front. Another change was the replacment of the original paper tape reader with the PED 350. PED (Peripheral Equipment Division) was a CDC created company. Their first product was the 350 reader. Later, they made the 60X series of tape units and the 405 card reader. This was all part of CDC's effort to move away from other companys' peripherals. The early CDC systems shipped with Ampex tape units, IBM card equipment. The original paper tape reader was an inport from Ferranti in England. It was fascinating; used thyratrons as light sensors. I had one, but it disappeared in the last move. You can tell it from the 350 by the paper tape load arm. On the Ferranti, it is a steel rod. On the PED 350, it is a flattened V shaped plastic arm. Another way to tell early 160s from later units is the side drops. On the early units, the top formica also went down the left and right side about 12 inches. This stopped mid-life. Old memoriy says at s/n 43 but after 55 years, that is not hard data. The early 1604's also had this side drop of the desk top. You can see it in some early photographs. I did see one 161 typewriter stand with the side drop, but don't remember if it went into production. NO 160s were ever converted to 160-As. Not one. There are physical differences in the logic chassis. More cards slots were needed. The extra 4K bank of memory takes up a lot card space. The front panel would have to be totally replaced. The 160-A requires a lot more cable ports for the Buffer channel and the external memory (169). 160-A manuals would be useless for a 160. The card types are the same and about half the commands are the same. But that is it. By the way, bitsavers has an excellent description of the 160 in "System Programs For The 160 Computer". It includes a photograph showing the above differences. And pages 1 - 10 present good insight to Seymour Cray's thinking about his next machine, the 6600. It shows where the idea for the PPUs came from. The obsolete 160s were in use for many years after their demise. Usually for testing peripherals, copying paper tapes, etc. I last worked on one in 1980, almost twenty years after it was built. Billy Pettit

10 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

Problems with 8/A Programmer's Panel

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

>Not sure what you mean by membrane keypad. My front panels certainly >have real buttons, which makes a clicking noise and feeling when I press >them. But maybe I'm confused and there is some membrane behind the keys >or something? > >Johnny That's my mistake. I've never actually seen or touched a DKC8-AA panel, just pictures of them in the manual :) Hoping to acquire one since I am trying to do other things with the 8/A than keep debugging its hardware! (such as getting Dumprest working for RL02). >The 74f parts may be too fast. Try adding damping resistors (10 to 30 ohms) >in series with the outputs to slow things down or just switch to 74ls > >Joe Thanks for the tip. That is what I was implying, not sure I said so explicitly :) But adding twelve resistors which may or may not fix the problem, and hacking up my board is not an attractive thought... but neither is changing three 20-pin unsocketed DIPs without proper desoldering equipment. Guess I should have used sockets in a prototype! Besides, the board really does need redoing with proper power and ground plane management. -Charles

10 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

Formatter for the EMULEX QD01 ST506 Controller?

by holm＠freibergnet.de

..the Subject says all.. I'm looking for the Formater Utility for an Emulx QD01 ..preferably for the PDP11/RT11. The Manual http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/emulex/QD0151001-C-QD01_Di… lists the Part Numbers for the Software as PX995180x-0y where x is 1 or 2 and y is between 1-4, dependig of the distribution tapei media. A RX50 Floppy with the PN VX9951804 should exist too.. Has someone images from that software handy? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741

10 years, 8 months

1
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Control Data 160

by bpettitx＠comcast.net

Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: Subject: Re: Control Data 160 Ebay I believe the eBay lister stated that it was a 160, not the -A. So no return jump for you... --Chuck Which would make it even more scarce. There were only a little over a 100 of the 160 models made. And 40+ of them were rebranded as NCR machines. There were 495 160-As made officially. (There were also a small number shipped without serial numbers to the good people at Langley.) I know of at least 5x 160-As still in existence, besides my own. Which should be going to a museum this week if they can sort out shipping glitches. My system includes a 161-A Typewriter in lousy shape and a 167-2 Card Reader in perfect shape. Plus all manuals, software (with listings) and spare parts. Even the paper tape rewinder! I did not know any 160 machines survived, so who ever bought it has a unique item. I have looked for 15 years for an 8092 = the first true 8 bit computer. Haven't found even a hint or rumor of one. I am working with Al Kossow, to see that this material is eventually in his archives. Billy Pettit

10 years, 8 months

1
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Zendex ZX-200A firmware reverse-engineered

by spacewar＠gmail.com

The original proprietor of Zendex has put the firmware of the ZX-200A in the public domain, so I've put my reverse-engineered source code on Github: https://github.com/brouhaha/zx200a-fw The ZX-200A is a single-board Multibus floppy controller intended for Intel MDS (including Series II and Series III) development systems, replacing either or both the Intel dual-board SBC 201 single-density and SBC 202 double-density floppy controllers. Since it can do both densities, it can replace both Intel controllers simultaneously, allowing the same floppy drives to be used for either density, by using different logical drive numbers. We take it for granted that "modern" floppy controllers often support selectable density, but with those early Intel board-level floppy controllers that wasn't the case. Also, the Intel SBC 202 double-density controller uses an Intel-proprietary M2FM disk format, instead of IBM-compatible MFM. As such, none of the single-chip FDCs are compatible with it, with the possible exception of the Western Digital 1781 (with a huge pile of external support logic), and (less likely) the TI TMS9909. Unfortunately the original ZX-200A manual, which contained the schematics and source code, is not available, hence my project to reverse-engineer it. I'm working on tracing out the schematic, but as the board has 82 chips it is slow going.

10 years, 8 months

2
1
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Problems with 8/A Programmer's Panel

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

Several years ago, Vince Slyngstad and I "cloned" the rare DKC8-AA Programmer's Panel for PDP-8 with some improvements (0.6 vs. 0.3" LED displays, real "click" buttons instead of that membrane keypad, and fixed a couple of bugs in the original design). Also, since 8235's were scarce even then, we used 74F244 buffers instead to gate the input vs. output of the switch register onto the bus back to the M8316 Option 1 board. That may have caused a lurking problem, since occasionally the SR will change bits when an address is loaded. Turns out an oscillation starts on the ground lines at about 20 MHz with certain entries at the keypad to LSR and LA (I can't see an obvious pattern). This parasitic is large enough (up to 2V p-p with respect to the chassis/rack) that it's clocking the D-flops used as the physical switch register! It can be seen in the 7-segment displays as a "flicker" which will change when I touch the ground on the board... attempts to add more grounds actually made the problem worse! I'm thinking of redoing the board layout with better attention to ground planes/power buses. There's a .01 uf decoupling cap at every IC and 12 out of 40 pins on each of the two connecting ribbon cables are dedicated to ground. 7 on one, 5 on the other are for +5 volts. On the other hand, I am tired of tinkering and considering just buying a real DKC8-AA if there's one out there. Anyone? ;) -Charles

10 years, 8 months

5
4
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New BBS in Maryland

by mokuba＠gmail.com

+1-410-734-6804 New hobby thing. ;) Wildcat! 4 running on it, stock out of box config. If you don't see all the menus except for help and send to sysop, wait till I validate users. When I get back home i'll set it to give non-validated users more permissions, though. -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG

10 years, 8 months

12
26
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IBM 026

by misc4email＠yahoo.com

Can anyone help me to locate an old IBM 026 printing keypunch for a project on which I am working?I was an IBM Field Engineer many years ago and I used to service lots of Unit Record equipment at that time.Any help in locating a machine would be greatly appreciated.Thank you. AlEx-IBM Field Engineer

10 years, 8 months

2
1
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Schematics KDJ11-A / M8192?

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Holm Tiffe > Anyway, thanks for the schematics Eh, de nada. > I have the board running again. The fix was simple, the xtal was bad. You're lucky it was something so simple! (Although we've seen this kind of thing before - I had that 11/23 with a bad crystal.) I've got three dead 11/73 boards (from someone else), but none of them are that easy. Different symptoms on all three, but I suspect the State Sequencer gate array on all three. On one, at least, the ILOE latch control signal from that gate array is sitting at 2V (which I seem to recall is characteristic of a TTL input that's not being driven). Maybe it's just some corrosion, and re-seating the gate array (if I can work out how to unseat it - don't have the extraction tool) will fix it. Otherwise, I'm SOL. At least the J11 there are spares for - that gate array is surely umobtainium. Noel

10 years, 8 months

2
1
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BBC Model B with Raspberry Pi Internals

by mark＠wickensonline.co.uk

Bit of a tricky one to google this, so thought I'd consult the list - does anyone know of a documented project that replaced the internals of a BBC Model B with a Raspberry Pi (or MiniITX PC) interfacing with keyboard etc. to bring modern internals with a traditional interface? I don't even know if there is a word for these kind of projects? Thanks, Mark.

10 years, 8 months

4
3
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A poltergeist in my machine?

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

So I've mentioned how I've seen this wierd behaviour where QBUS memory boards that hadn't been used in a long time didn't work when first plugged in, but started working later. I just had something even weirder happen, and am curious if anyone has an plausible explanations. So I had a dead M8044 (MSV11-D), symptom was that you could write -1 to any location, it read back as 0. Quite repeatable, I can power cycle the machine, take the card in and out, etc, etc. So I throw it on an extender, and start chasing. I have a two instruction loop (write location 0, loop), and I'm watching the data going into the memory chips on the card, and it all looks good. So I add a third instruction (read location 0, after the write), and continue chasing. Data looks good coming out of the chips; then it goes to an octal latch. So I look at the latch enable, and that doesn't look so hot - just a tiny little ugly spike. So I look at the source of that, and it's a D flop. So I look at the D flop's clock input, and it's also a nasty little spike. So that comes >from the output of a triple-AND, and so I start looking at the inputs of the 3-AND. And when I put my 'scope lead on the second input... the memory suddenly starts working! Well, I could see that - the added resistance or capacitance or whatever of the probe might have had some effect on a circuit that was right on the edge. But here's where the ghost enters the machine. I pull the 'scope probe ..... and the memory keeps working! I can power cycle the machine, leave it off for 15 minutes, power it back on - and the memory still works fine! Does anyone have _any_ idea WTF is going on here?!?! I feel like I'm in some sort of AI koan... Noel

10 years, 8 months

6
5
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21MX proms (per request)

by marc.verdiell＠gmail.com

Thanks for the answers everyone, I am writing everything down... Marc

10 years, 8 months

3
2
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Control Data ad: Omega 480 "370 compatible alternative" on eBay

by linimon＠lonesome.com

http://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-197X-RARE-CONTROL-DATA-AD-OMEGA-480-370-COM… Not that I'm going to bid on it, but ... I had never heard of this CDC product before. Does anyone have any idea if this was a real product, or just a way to poke IBM in the eye, or what? mcl

10 years, 8 months

4
3
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21MX proms (per request)

by jwest＠classiccmp.org

Several people asked, here's the scoop: The common proms for HP 21MX M/E/F are 1K, 4K, and 8K. 1K are used for either loader roms on the cpu board or microcode on the FAB 4K are used for microcode on the FAB or FEM 8K are used for microcode on the FEM The manuals you'll want to print and keep handy: HP 12992 Loader Roms Installation Manual, 12992-90001 (April '86) HP 1000 M/E/F-series Firmware Installation and Reference Manual, 12791-90001 (September, '83) I believe these are both on bitsavers. They are "must have" manuals. These are all bipolar proms, and most modern prom programmers will not be able to program them. I use a Data I/O 29B (with Unipak 2B), and it can program all these parts. Those programmers appear on ebay from time to time at around roughly $400. The blank proms are not terribly easy to find these days. Ebay has them occasionally, but your best bet is sites that cater to arcade machine repair. Here's a non-exhaustive but useful list of compatible parts for each: 1K parts MMI 6301 Harris 7611 Signetics N82S129 National 74S287 TI 24S10 AMD 27S21 Fujitsu 7114 (possibly 7052 as well, need to verify that) 4K parts Signetics N82S141 Harris 7641 MMI 6341 8K parts Signetics N82S181 Harris 7681 MMI 6381

10 years, 8 months

10
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Control Data 160 Ebay

by billdegnan＠gmail.com

Anyone here get the Control Data 160 (Ebay 252070822992)? I must admit time, money, and space aside I would love to have had this one! (I have the manuals at least) -- Bill vintagecomputer.net

10 years, 8 months

5
4
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'New' PDP-11 prints

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> There are a number of things like that (e.g. the H786 power supply for > the BA11-N; [print sets] not available separately [online], but in the > 11/23 FMPS [online], if you know to look there): we ought to produce > some sort of registry, to collect such information in one place. So I have started such a registry. http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/FMPSOnline.html The concept is that eventually search engines will index that page, so people looking for, say, '"BA11-N" prints' will wind up there, and that page will tell them where to go. I went through a number of PDP-11 print sets which are online (11/05S, 11/23, 11/34, etc) to compile the initial list, but it's just a start. I will add others as I come across them; and if any knows of, or finds, any others (i.e. print sets which _are_ online, but do not show up when looked for in common search engines such as Google), please let me know, and I will add them. > I also found prints for the MF11-U, MF11-W, and MM11-Y; none of which > appear to be on-line (although the MF11-U ones might be in the 11/05S print > set, which ISTR is online). On looking at the 11/05S print set online, I think it has most of the MM11-Y prints, but some pages are apparently missing (it claims), so I think not everything is there. > I don't think the ME11-L prints are online either, but those I have in > my 11/05 print set - I'll have to see if that print set is online > somewhere, no point re-scanning them, if so. So it turns out that these don't seem to be online (in any form), but I have a set of hardcopy in my set "PDP-11/05 Engineering Drawings" (which is different from the 05S set which _is_ online), so I will scan them in and make them available at some point (especially since these seem to be the most common PDP-11 core memory boards). If anyone is desperately searching for them, please let me know, and I will accelerate that process. The situation with the ME11-L/MF11-L/MM11-L (which are all the same boards) is slightly complicated. The board set is called an MM11-L (or -LP, depending); G110+G231+H214 for non-parity, G109+G231+H215+M7529 for parity. The MF11-L seems to be a backplane, plus an MM11-L board set; the ME11-L seems to be an MF11-L in a box. Some CPU backplanes (e.g. the older 11/05's) can also take an MM11-L board set. (The _newer_ 11/05's have backplanes which take an MM11-Y - whether an MM11-L would work in them, I have no idea.) Noel

10 years, 8 months

2
1
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'New' PDP-11 prints

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> On looking at the 11/05S print set online, I think it has most of the > MM11-Y prints Err, make that the 11/04 print set. (Sorry!) The 11/05S has the MF11-U (or would that be MM11-U - I wonder if there's a system to the ME/MF/MM designators). Noel

10 years, 8 months

1
0
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Reading ROMs

by gerardcjat＠free.fr

List of blank for 21MX and microcode : That would be very usefull. Thanks in advance --- L'absence de virus dans ce courrier ?lectronique a ?t? v?rifi?e par le logiciel antivirus Avast. https://www.avast.com/antivirus

10 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

What kind of keyboard is this?

by wheagy＠gmail.com

I picked this up at Radio Shack about 25-30 years ago and have been hauling it around ever since. http://imgur.com/oNEcRFv,VacFqrY#0 (There should be two images...a link to the second.) It was a surplus thing that RS was selling on the parts wall and I grabbed on the off chance I'd need it someday. I lost the cardboard top to the plastic bag it came in, so I know nothing about it. Anyone have any idea? Thanks...Win

10 years, 8 months

3
2
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Problem with RF73 DSSI disk

by holm＠freibergnet.de

Since the capacity of 2x RF31 and 1x RF71 disks is a little bit low for VMS with some compilersi (~400MB every disk), I've looked for a bigger disk, at least for the sytem itself. (I've already relocated the pagefile to the 2nd disk). Ok, there are RF73 available at ebay US for $100, but addiotional $50 and more for shipping is to much, I have to pay additional 19% of customs VAT on top of the sum from disk+shipping.. Maybe there are people that think that this prices are ok, but not me, not for an old 2GB disk for an computer with that power consumtion and that computing "power".. In the case there is someone in europe that want to give away such a disk for an acceptable price, please mail me.. Luckily an old friend of mine found 2 Disks in his stock, another RF31 (not tried jet) and an RF73. I've changed now the working but still almost empty RF71 in my VAX4000-300 against that RF73 disk and tried to integrate it to the system. It starts with all LEDs on (as the other do), begins to rattle a little with the head assembly (as the others do) but stops then and begins to reposition somewhere in 0.5s cycles. It never finishes doing that, it is not going to ready. The ready led is blinking for a short time after every 0,5s cycle. I've tried to talk with the disk using the KA670 Firmware with set host/dup/dssi/bus:0 2, PARAMS is working and STATUS is responding, the displayed last failure was 3304(X) and I don't know what that could be.. All other commands do work, but they are aborted since the disk is busy. The available RF72DUG8 gives the hint that the error codes are listed in the service manuals, but it seems that those manuals aren't available somewhere. What could the error be? Is the disk dead? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741

10 years, 8 months

14
37
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Fw: MITS Altair 8800b switches needed

by mhs.stein＠gmail.com

Oops: http://www.dailywell.com.tw/uploadpic/file/20130914143655f.pdf ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Stein" <mhs.stein at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Monday, September 07, 2015 12:41 AM Subject: Re: MITS Altair 8800b switches needed > Anything here you like? > > Might have to hunt for a distributor/retailer > though. > > m > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "drlegendre ." <drlegendre at gmail.com> > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Sunday, September 06, 2015 4:21 PM > Subject: Re: MITS Altair 8800b switches needed > > >> Since Erik brought it up.. >> >> I could also use a couple switches, but in my >> case they are for an 8800A >> model. (Well, it's sort-of a 'B' now as it was >> upgraded to the 'B' power >> supply, but it still has the original 'A' type >> D/C board). >> >> Like the 'B' it uses mostly Mom-Off-Mom >> mini-toggles, with panel mount >> bushing, and the long solder terminals that >> solder directly to the PCB (not >> the small eyelet type). But the handles are the >> standard mini-toggle bat >> handle - not the flatted paddles Erik >> describes. >> >> Any leads, feel free to mail me off-list. >> Thanks! >> >> -Bill >> >> On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Erik Klein >> <classiccmp at vintage-computer.com> >> wrote: >> >>> I am desperately seeking NOS, working pulls or >>> accurate replacement >>> switches for my MITS 8800b. >>> >>> These are flattened paddle switches, both >>> ON-OFF and MOM-Off-MOM type. >>> SPDT, Panel mount, solder post with a 15mm >>> actuator. This last part is the >>> pain as everything I've found is 10mm or less. >>> >>> I've checked every online source that I know >>> of plus all of the local >>> electronics and surplus shops with no luck. >>> >>> I'm sure someone here has a stash or knows >>> someone who does. I need at >>> least one of each type but would prefer a few >>> more as I do have a few >>> marginal switches to replace if I can. >>> >>> I'd even buy a complete 8800b D/C board if >>> that's what it took. >>> >>> Please email me at my webmaster@ >>> "vintage-computer.c0m" address if you can >>> help. >>> >>> Thank you! >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Erik Klein >>> www.vintage-computer.com >>> www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage >>> Computer Forums >>> marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage >>> Computer and Gaming >>> Marketplace >>> >

10 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

MITS Altair 8800b switches needed

by classiccmp＠vintage-computer.com

I am desperately seeking NOS, working pulls or accurate replacement switches for my MITS 8800b. These are flattened paddle switches, both ON-OFF and MOM-Off-MOM type. SPDT, Panel mount, solder post with a 15mm actuator. This last part is the pain as everything I've found is 10mm or less. I've checked every online source that I know of plus all of the local electronics and surplus shops with no luck. I'm sure someone here has a stash or knows someone who does. I need at least one of each type but would prefer a few more as I do have a few marginal switches to replace if I can. I'd even buy a complete 8800b D/C board if that's what it took. Please email me at my webmaster@ "vintage-computer.c0m" address if you can help. Thank you! -- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace

10 years, 8 months

4
4
0 0

seeking Burroughs B6700 manuals and software

by nw＠retroComputingTasmania.com

We would be glad to hear from anyone who might have new material related to the Burroughs B6700. We're on the hunt for any manuals or software related to the Burroughs large systems so we can build an emulator for the B6700. This search includes the B5000, B6000, B7000 families, since there is considerable overlap across these families and collateral from one system family can assist understanding another. Example models include B5500, B5700, B6500, B7500, B6700, B7700, B6800, and B7800. We were amazingly lucky with the B5500 to have so much of the critical documentation (thanks Bitsavers!) and a complete suite of system software, but even though the B6700 was more recent and produced in larger numbers we're not having the same level of good fortune finding artifacts. What we have so far is documented here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JnMsyE8ssJi_-MUsK0rT9LPtNpeJCpTv1Qr… If you're interested in this system then you likely remember that it had a particularly impressive front-panel display, seen here: http://www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/home/projects/burroughs-b6700-mainfra… This was known as the MDL display: Maintenance Diagnostics Logic display. Because the MDL had the 4 x top-of-stack registers down to the bit-level particular bit-patterns allowed words to be displayed. The early MCPs put IDLE into the display during IO waits, and subsequent releases: B for Burroughs, but sites quickly started putting their own company initials or the time. The Danish museum is so far the only place I've found that kept the MDL: http://datamuseum.dk/wiki/Genstand:11000045_Konsolpanel_Burroughs_B6700 Thanks to Finn Verner Nielsen for being so helpful and undertaking an expedition into their warehouse to locate and photograph the item for us. On that DDHF web-page you will see on the left of the picture the B7800 MDL they have too. My goal is to also construct a replica of the B6700 MDL. Steps undertaken so far: Posts to newsgroups Posts on LinkedIn, wikipedia, Yahoo groups Emails to a few dozen people who were involved with the system Trawling the Internet

10 years, 8 months

3
3
0 0

PDP-8 diagnostics SR settings?

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

Johnny, I appreciate the thought, but there are over 1500 pins on this board and soldering them all would be a major undertaking in itself... I don't have a wave soldering machine ;) The first error flagged today is on D1 CA 3, the Command Register A bit 3. Scope loops definitely identify this bus as trouble and it's part of the disk address register too. The command register is two 'LS174 hex D-flops, and it drives the input of a '165 shift register (disk address) and the input of an 8234 (2-1 multiplexer/driver) back onto the data bus, and that's it. Should be simple... ha! The voltage on that output pin will go up and down as set by the loop until the board is flexed - then it will wander up to around 1-2 volts (measured at the pin with a DIP clip). However, I measured its ability to drive a 510 ohm load to 3.5 volts, and sink at least 10 ma (measured directly) staying below 0.8 volts. And the inputs to those two gates can be pulled to 0 with only a fraction of a milliamp, and go high when the driving D-flop is disconnected! I couldn't reproduce the problem while flexing the board either, but then I'd need three or four hands. So I changed the LS174 anyway. No luck - the card passes diagnostics until the board is flexed. All three of those chips are in the same general area of the board, too. Close inspection of the driven '165 shows a lot of black oxidation on its pins... don't those tend to grow crud inside the package and cause problems too? But... read on ;) After perusing the schematic several more times this evening, I found one more place I'd overlooked where D1 CA 3 (the "flaky" line) connects... to an AND gate E96 in the center of the card, that has a solderable jumper for RL01/02. I had moved that jumper to RL01 for testing by another member (as that is the drive he has), and back to RL02 when I got the card back from him. Lo and behold, underneath that piece of wire was a tiny solder whisker, at the moment shorting the CA 3 line to (something else?) but it was definitely continuity to another trace. Don't know how long that whisker might have been there, quite possibly from before I changed it for the test! Anyway I cleared it, and I've flexed the board numerous times while running AJRLAC controller diagnostic, and made 8 passes without an error. So far so good. So I connected the drives, booted up SerialDisk and can read their directories (only C & D, but that's a PIP version problem that I corrected on my RL02 image). Drives seem to be working :) ... of course R20A: (the SYS directory) is clobbered, so I'll have to remake the pack with my known-good image, but I was able to format the pack in Drive 1 without errors. Even wiggling the board several times. Now I'm running read/write tests (AJRLIA.DG) on Drive 1. No errors so far after two ten-minute passes :) THIS time maybe I really got it... CA 3 is the 4th bit of course where all the problems were occurring. Will let it run for a while longer. David Gesswein just sent me a version of dumprest for RL that he's just written, modified for my Omni-USB port at 40/41. If that works I'll be able to upload an entire RL02 in about 2 minutes instead of 3 hours with vtserver... -Charles

10 years, 8 months

1
0
0 0

Reading ROMs

by marc.verdiell＠gmail.com

Jay, Mike, John, Thanks for the helpful information. It just dawned onto me that these were "write once" PROMs, not modern EEPROMs. Duh. So you get one shot at doing it right... The Data I/Os on ebay seem to be quite a bit more than $100 right now, I'll keep looking. I guess none of the modern ebay Chinese ones would do? Also where can you get the blanks? Any modern equivalents here too? Marc ------------------------- Jay West wrote: The Data I/O 29B works perfectly for those old fusable link proms. John Robertson wrote: One can pick up a Data I/O 29B and Unipak II off eBay starting around $100USD (ish). There is a very good support group on yahoo groups: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Data_IO_EPROM Mike Loewen wrote: I used a Data I/O 29B programmer to burn the PROMs, with a Unipak 2B. The blank PROMs were variously Signetics N82S141, MMI 6341-1 and National 74S474. Along with the 12821A HP-IB board, you also need a Boot Loader PROM, 12992H (12992-80004). The boot loader PROM is a Signetics N82S129 or equivalent. For installation information about the firmware PROMs, see manual 12791-90001 (HP 1000 M/E/F-Series Firmware Installation and Reference Manual). For boot loader information, see manual 12792-90001 (HP 12992 Loader ROMs Installation Manual). ------------------------

10 years, 8 months

3
2
0 0

Data General 6050 Cartridge Disk Drive

by bcoleman3＠hotmail.com

I know this is a pretty long shot, but does anyone happen to have any service or maintenance manuals on the DG 6050 disk drive that have a procedure for adjusting the servo control circuit board? Or does anyone know anything about doing this? Thanks

10 years, 8 months

3
2
0 0

Tu10 pdp11

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Johnny Billquist > Early DMA controllers were all multiple cards, so having their own > dedicated backplanes were a pretty sane idea. Well, there was also that large intermediate generation which still had their own backplanes, but they were 'system unit' (for lack of a defined term for this form factor) backplanes (e.g. RK11-D, RH11, etc), which fit into e.g. a BA11-K, along with other 'generic' UNIBUS backplanes (i.e. DD11-C, etc). That first generation I spoke of (the one with backplanes that mounted directly in H960's) are marked by the use of lots of small Flip Chip cards, not the larger quad/hex boards that one finds in the 'second generation' (above). I guess the larger board versions were cheaper to manufacture, which is why they got rid of the first generation ones in favour of the second generation (which were often functionally identical to the first-generation ones they replaced, e.g. RK11-C and -D). Those first-generation one used very similar construction technique to the KA10 generation of machines, which also used that size Flip Chip (although a different series, mostly with individual transistors), and heavier wire on the bacplanes. What did KI10's use, does anyone know? I have this bit set that they used roughly the same kind of Flip Chips as the 'first generation' PDP-11 DMA devices, but I've never seen a KI in person. Noel

10 years, 8 months

5
6
0 0

Collection Reduction - Free for pickup

by wayne.smith＠charter.net

As a result of remodeling my house, I now have less space for the collection and need to thin it out a bit. The following items are free for pick-up in the Los Angeles area. Priority will be given to the first person who will take everything. Almost all of these are "portables" so it isn't that much volume. Some work; some don't and are projects. The Seequa (dual DOS-CP/M unit) and Access Matrix "Actrix" could be very cool pieces if brought into working condition. 1. Seequa Chameleon Plus: Powers up; no video - otherwise in nice condition 2. Corona ATP: Works, boots off floppy to MS-DOS 2.11 disc (included) - nice condition 3. Sanyo MBC-775: Powers up, no video; though external RCA video works - shows boot error in ROM - nice condition 4. Sanyo MBC-675: Works - missing one floppy drive - boots off floppy (not included) to MS-DOS 2.11, broken foot - rough condition 5. Access Matrix - Actrix: Powers up, video good, floppy drive B: cycles and won't boot (comes with case, manual and software) 6. Sony SMC-70G Genlocker: Works (tested RCA out), asks for system disk 7. NEC PowerMate Portable SX: powers up, no video, possible HDD crash based on screeching noise 8. Kaypro II: Lights flash on floppy drives, no video, constant beeping noise in sync with flashing floppy drive lights 9. Kaypro 2X: Works - boots to screen asking for disk (seem to recall that one of the floppy drives may need realignment) Please PM me if you are interested.

10 years, 8 months

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Cheap board guy

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Ethan Dicks > That looks like a great haul. We're talking about the guy on eBay whom I posted a pointer to a couple of days back, the one with large lots of QBUS CPUs, memory, DLV11s, etc? > I hope they are working cards. All the ones I've gotten from the guy above which I was able to test (couldn't test, e.g. the RK05 cards 'cause I don't have a working RK05 yet) were OK - QBUS memory, 11/23's, etc. Noel

10 years, 8 months

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Control Data 160 Ebay

by COURYHOUSE＠aol.com

was it a 160 or a 160A? Ed# In a message dated 9/6/2015 9:13:38 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, coryheisterkamp at gmail.com writes: I'd be curious, too. I was *this close* to throwing in a bid seeing as this turned up within driving distance...until I was politely reminded that I have a few other projects around here. The coffee can of 'spare parts' also gave me pause. -C On Sep 5, 2015, at 9:08 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 9/5/2015 7:10 PM, william degnan wrote: >> Anyone here get the Control Data 160 (Ebay 252070822992)? I must admit >> time, money, and space aside I would love to have had this one! (I have >> the manuals at least) >> > > I would not be terribly surprised if that auction result flushed out one > or two more. Ya never know. > > JRJ >

10 years, 8 months

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Schematics KDJ11-A / M8192?

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Holm Tiffe > Sorry, I couldn't find a mailing about Schematics for the KDJ11-AA, http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2015-September/011849.html > I've read that you got some documentation and want to scan it, 600dpi > with some TIFF compression or so.. that's all. Well, now I'm really confused, because AFAIK the message that talked about the 600dpi and TIFF is the same one that thas the URL for the FMPS. So I don't understand how you don't have them. Oh well. > No, I'm not reading every singe mailing from that list. I don't either - there's often too much. But I do read everything that looks like it could be DEC-related, and most of the other stuff too (it's kind of fun to read about the really old machines, etc). Noel

10 years, 8 months

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'New' PDP-11 prints

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> we now have the 11/73 prints, which I will be scanning Real Soon Now. OK, done: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/MP01890_KDJ11-A_Jan84.pdf Can the appropriate people please download this to all the right places (e.g. repositories)? Don't be misled by the svelte 1.5MB size; they were scanned at 600dpi, and there is a _ton_ of resolution in there (you can go way past the '100%' setting on Adobe Reader without getting pixellation). The originals were in really rough shape (torn, written on, etc), but I think the results are fully legible. I looked quickly, and found a couple of issues, where there was writing which obscured things on the scans, and fixed the images manually to show what's on the original prints. However, I didn't have the energy to look at every detail of every page, so if something comes up un-readable, let me know, and I'll issue a fixed set. (There are some places which aren't legible, e.g. lower right pins of E9 on K3, but the original prints aren't legible there either, so there's nothing I can do about that; it's possible to work out what the pin numbers are, though.) And a _HUGE_ 'Thank You' to Paul Anderson for lending me the print set so I could scan them for everyone! > That does leave us needing the 11/83/84 CPU prints, so if anyone has a > set... Can I repeat my appeal for these? They are for the KDJ11-B (M8190). With this board being so recent, surely someone must have a set? I'd be happy to do the work of scanning them, if someone has originals but isn't up to the scanning part. Noel

10 years, 8 months

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Mostek MK8022 QBUS memory repair tips

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

So I have one of these Mostek memory cards, and it was non-functional, and a Google didn't reveal _anything_ online about them. The fault was a couple of picked bits, so I started off tracing the signal paths for those bits from the bus fingers, to the transceivers, to an octal latch, etc - and then it dawned on me that this card has two banks (i.e. it has a 9x4 array of xx64 64Kx1 chips; i.e. to provide 16 bits wide plus byte parity, there are two groups of 18 chips), and one bank was picking, and the other was not. So that meant that data paths were all OK, it was a simple matter of finding some bad memory chips. (It turns out that diagnostic heuristic is quite useful, since many PDP-11 semiconductor memory cards have two banks of xxKx1 chips; so if you have dropped/picked bits, look to see if both banks have the same fault. If 'no', it's pretty much guaranteed to be a memory chip, and it should be easy to find. I just fixed for someone an M8044 with this failure mode, without doing any hardware debugging at all; the symptoms, and the prints, were all I needed.) There was nothing to indicate which banks/bits were where on the MK8022, but by pulling memory chips (luckily, they were socketed, so this was pretty painless), I managed to work it out (unlike many memory cards, it's not semi-random). For reference for others, here it is: Low bank: 01 - H1 ... 0200 - H8 0400 - E1 ... 0100000 - E8 High bank: 01 - F1 ... 0200 - F8 0400 - D1 ... 0100000 - D8 D-H9 seem to be parity. If anyone has one of these cards, and it's busted and they're not up to dealing with it, let me know. Depending on the failure mode, I _may_ be able to help (no documentation of any kind, after all...) Noel

10 years, 8 months

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Tu10 pdp11

by billdegnan＠gmail.com

Reading docs on DEC TU10 for pdp 11 one makes a serial connection, right? Not sure because I found little about baud, etc. I did not see any definitive controller card for UNIBUS pdp 11. Maybe I am missing something..can anyone share experiences? Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net

10 years, 8 months

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PDP-8 diagnostics SR settings?

by charlesmorris800＠centurytel.net

Looks like I spoke too soon. The dreaded RL8A failure has returned! I made a new OS/8 RL02 pack on vtserver (took the expected three hours at 9600 baud console speed). Booted up the 8/A, so far so good. But then Drive 0 faulted and OS/8 crashed... restarted and it crashed a few seconds later again. I flexed the middle of the RL8A upwards and the system worked. For a while. Then it crashed and wouldn't reboot. Back to where I was earlier in the week - won't even allow SerialDisk to boot if the RL8A is in the backplane. OS/8 on the SerialDisk virtual RK05 works flawlessly if the card is removed. Obviously there is still an intermittent which has come back. Maybe there's a tiny thread of something conductive stuck under one of the IC's and I managed to temporarily clear it as I described. Anyhow I am resuming my search for a good RL8A. I have wasted enough man-hours on this flaky board. thanks Charles

10 years, 8 months

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Tu10 pdp11

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From william degnan > I was looking to see if references to the tm11 were "module/card" or > backplane interface. I think pretty much all that earliest generation of UNIBUS interfaces were stand-alone backplanes (i.e. 19" wide things that went in an H960 in a fixed location, and were filled with the small Flip Chip modules); the RK11-C, RP11-C, RF11, and TC11 all are. > I surprisingly found little commentary or threads about the TU10 / > TM11, other than DEC docs. I guess these are not super common Yeah, I think they were the first PDP-11 tape drives - not as rare as RF11's now, but pretty rare. Noel

10 years, 8 months

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Control Data 160 Ebay

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Jay Jaeger > I would not be terribly surprised if that auction result flushed out > one or two more. Well, auctions like this are hopefully getting the word out that many of these old computers are worth a lot more than scrap value. Yes, it will cause some people to ask unrealistic amounts for them, but better that than the other way: someone's who's asking too much can always come down to reasonability, but someone who's scrapped a machine, well, it's gone forever... Noel

10 years, 8 months

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Schematics KDJ11-A / M8192?

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: Holm Tiffe >> Not reading the list much, are we? :-) > Huh? Have I missed something in the near past? That would be the implication, yes... :-) But yes, you're in luck. I'm scanning them as we speak. Noel

10 years, 8 months

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8 inch floppies-Wang, TRS80, Peachtree, perfect software, much more. Some 8 inch drives also.

by useddec＠gmail.com

If interested, please contact me off list. Thanks, Paul

10 years, 8 months

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Burroughs A 584 card reader available

by useddec＠gmail.com

If you are interested, contact me off list.

10 years, 8 months

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George!

by evan＠snarc.net

Here's a new picture of "George" -- aka the Philbrick analog computer that MARCH rescued two months ago. It was used at M.I.T. from 1958-1970. http://snarc.net/george.jpg

10 years, 8 months

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Tu10 pdp11

by jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu

> From: David Gesswein > I have a working one on an 8. It took a lot of work to get it to that > state. > > http://www.pdp8online.com/tu10/tu10-repair.shtml Wow. That is a really awesome repair job you did there. My hat is off... Noel

10 years, 8 months

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Possible road trip....Illnois, Canada, Maine and back

by useddec＠gmail.com

I'm looking into a road trip from Champaign to Maine via Indy, Detroit, Windsor, Niagra Falls, Buffalo or 1000 Islands, Syracuse to Boston area, and up to Maine. Not sure about the return Route. I'll be leaving late Sep or early Oct. I have talked to a few list members about dropping off/picking up items. If anyone wishes to buy/ sell/ trade along the route, please contact me off list. I have a good size minivan and am trying to keep things down to a BA11-K or FL02 size, but that can change.I do have a few 42 inch cabs with q-bus boxes i could part with. I have a lot of 8A, 8E, qbus, unibus, VAX, boxes and parts, and LAXX, VTxx and VR units and parts. Thanks, Paul

10 years, 8 months

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