7 Mar
2020
7 Mar
'20
3:33 a.m.
For those interested, HPE has finally, formally announced the end of their participation
in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.? A number of people have received the below message from
HPE, probably everyone they have on record as having current Hobbyist licenses.
If you have any current or future ( at least before the end of 2021 ) interest in Hobbyist
licenses for any version of OpenVMS from 5.0 through 8.4 for VAX ( only up to 7.3) or
Alpha and Itanium, then register now.? HPE is looking to find out how many are interested
in Hobbyist offerings and even though the new license will be good through 2021, I
don't expect them to be generating them past the end of 2020 and maybe sooner.
Register for Hobbyist PAKs at one of the following (I suggest the HPE address first):
https://www.hpe.com/h41268/live/index_e.aspx?qid=24548
http://plato.ccsscorp.com/hobbyist_registration.php
Note the underscore between hobbyist and registration in hobbyist_registration.
One Hobbyist user reports this:
I?ve just received an update from the OpenVMS Customer lab:
Here?s the message from the OpenVMS team.? The idea was that hobbyists would visit the
site and renew their licenses, and in response, we would provide the final set of
licenses,
explaining the scenario:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
? As we approach the end of the HPE OpenVMS V8.4 standard support period, HPE
??plans to conclude the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program.
? The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be the last set.
??Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. Attached
??is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. These final licenses
??are valid through December 31st, 2021. We hope that this additional validity
??period will enable users to plan for the future.
? Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are encouraged to
??purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact [Fellman, Jon]
??<jon.fellman at hpe.com <mailto:jon.fellman at hpe.com>> for the same.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Cheers, Wiz!!
John H. Reinhardt
*From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] *On Behalf Of
*David Moylan
*Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 4:14 PM
*To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE
*Subject:* [HECnet] HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing
Hi all,
Just received the e-mail below. I?ve hunted around all the various Hobbyist locations and
licensing pages and can?t find any additional information.
I?ve already replied back to ask what the impact of Hobbyist renewal licensing will be. I
have no further information at this stage.
Have others received this as well? Does anyone have any further knowledge on this?
I can see a few people have forwarded/posted the same message on comp.os.vms.
Cheers, Wiz!!
*From:*OpenVMS Customer Lab [mailto:openvmscustomerlab at hpe.com]
*Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 3:13 PM
*Cc:* OpenVMS Customer Lab
*Subject:* OpenVMS Hobbyist Notification
Dear HPE OpenVMS hobbyist,
This is to inform you that HPE is concluding the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program in
alignment with the HPE OpenVMS support roadmap.
If you wish to understand more details, please reach out to us at the earliest through the
usual license renewal webpage.
Thank you.
HPE OpenVMS team
7 Mar
7 Mar
5 a.m.
Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a
proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to
issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to
legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess
we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD...
Mike
On Sat, Mar 7, 2020, 6:33 AM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
For those interested, HPE has finally, formally
announced the end of their
participation in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program. A number of people have
received the below message from HPE, probably everyone they have on record
as having current Hobbyist licenses.
If you have any current or future ( at least before the end of 2021 )
interest in Hobbyist licenses for any version of OpenVMS from 5.0 through
8.4 for VAX ( only up to 7.3) or Alpha and Itanium, then register now. HPE
is looking to find out how many are interested in Hobbyist offerings and
even though the new license will be good through 2021, I don't expect them
to be generating them past the end of 2020 and maybe sooner.
Register for Hobbyist PAKs at one of the following (I suggest the HPE
address first):
https://www.hpe.com/h41268/live/index_e.aspx?qid=24548
http://plato.ccsscorp.com/hobbyist_registration.php
Note the underscore between hobbyist and registration in
hobbyist_registration.
One Hobbyist user reports this:
I?ve just received an update from the OpenVMS Customer lab:
Here?s the message from the OpenVMS team. The idea was that hobbyists
would visit the site and renew their licenses, and in response, we would
provide the final set of licenses,
explaining the scenario:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
As we approach the end of the HPE OpenVMS V8.4 standard support
period, HPE
plans to conclude the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program.
The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be
the last set.
Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses.
Attached
is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. These final
licenses
are valid through December 31st, 2021. We hope that this additional
validity
period will enable users to plan for the future.
Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are
encouraged to
purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact
[Fellman, Jon]
<jon.fellman at hpe.com <mailto:jon.fellman at hpe.com>> for the
same.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Cheers, Wiz!!
John H. Reinhardt
*From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] *On
Behalf Of *David Moylan
*Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 4:14 PM
*To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE
*Subject:* [HECnet] HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing
Hi all,
Just received the e-mail below. I?ve hunted around all the various
Hobbyist locations and licensing pages and can?t find any additional
information.
I?ve already replied back to ask what the impact of Hobbyist renewal
licensing will be. I have no further information at this stage.
Have others received this as well? Does anyone have any further knowledge
on this?
I can see a few people have forwarded/posted the same message on
comp.os.vms.
Cheers, Wiz!!
*From:*OpenVMS Customer Lab [mailto:openvmscustomerlab at hpe.com]
*Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 3:13 PM
*Cc:* OpenVMS Customer Lab
*Subject:* OpenVMS Hobbyist Notification
Dear HPE OpenVMS hobbyist,
This is to inform you that HPE is concluding the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist
license program in alignment with the HPE OpenVMS support roadmap.
If you wish to understand more details, please reach out to us at the
earliest through the usual license renewal webpage.
Thank you.
HPE OpenVMS team
6:10 a.m.
On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a
proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to
issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to
legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess
we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD...
Mike
If VSI doesn?t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license, will it be
possible to buy VAX licenses? I?m curious as about five years ago, I had to help buy
VAX/VMS licenses for a project.
Zane
9:07 a.m.
On 3/7/2020 8:10 AM, Zane Healy wrote:
On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
On the HECnet list, David Moylan had sent an inqujiry to the OpenVMS Customer Lab and got
this as a response
" Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are encouraged to
purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact [Fellman, Jon]
<jon.fellman at hpe.com> for the same."
So this HP person, Jon Fellman looks like the person to ask about buying an OpenVMS VAX
license. I've sent him an email but I don't expect a response until Monday at
least. The "standard prices" part doesn't' look encouraging.
--
John H. Reinhardt
Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a
proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to
issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to
legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess
we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD...
Mike
If VSI doesn?t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license, will it be
possible to buy VAX licenses? ?I?m curious as about five years ago, I had to help buy
VAX/VMS licenses for a project.
Zane
9:27 a.m.
On Mar 7, 2020, at 9:07 AM, John H. Reinhardt
<johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org> wrote:
On 3/7/2020 8:10 AM, Zane Healy wrote:
The thing is, most people don?t know they need a real VAX/VMS license, until they find
themselves doing something that will require it at some point in the future. It?s not a
normal need, but it is one I?ve seen. I sure can?t justify buying any right now.
Zane
On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
On the HECnet list, David Moylan had sent an inqujiry to the OpenVMS Customer Lab and got
this as a response
" Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are encouraged to
purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact [Fellman, Jon]
<jon.fellman at hpe.com> for the same."
So this HP person, Jon Fellman looks like the person to ask about buying an OpenVMS VAX
license. I've sent him an email but I don't expect a response until Monday at
least. The "standard prices" part doesn't' look encouraging.
--
John H. Reinhardt
Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a
proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to
issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to
legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess
we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD...
Mike
If VSI doesn?t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license,
will it be possible to buy VAX licenses? I?m curious as about five years ago, I had to
help buy VAX/VMS licenses for a project.
Zane 
10:33 a.m.
One of the machines I have still has it's permanent license (along with
the pretty paper license) for the OS.? It's all the auxiliary packages
you need to do anything useful that are going to be the headache.
--Jason
On 3/7/20 9:27 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
On Mar 7, 2020, at 9:07 AM, John H. Reinhardt
<johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org> wrote:
On 3/7/2020 8:10 AM, Zane Healy wrote:
The thing is, most people don?t know they need a real VAX/VMS license, until they find
themselves doing something that will require it at some point in the future. It?s not a
normal need, but it is one I?ve seen. I sure can?t justify buying any right now.
Zane
On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
On the HECnet list, David Moylan had sent an inqujiry to the OpenVMS Customer
Lab and got this as a response
" Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are encouraged to
purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact [Fellman, Jon]
<jon.fellman at hpe.com> for the same."
So this HP person, Jon Fellman looks like the person to ask about buying an OpenVMS VAX
license. I've sent him an email but I don't expect a response until Monday at
least. The "standard prices" part doesn't' look encouraging.
--
John H. Reinhardt Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may
or may not ever launch a
proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to
issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to
legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess
we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD...
Mike
If VSI doesn?t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license,
will it be possible to buy VAX licenses? I?m curious as about five years ago, I had to
help buy VAX/VMS licenses for a project.
Zane 
3:23 p.m.
On 3/7/20 9:10 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
My understanding is if something doesn't change to allow VSI to
issue VAX licenses there will be no way to legally run a VMS on
a VAX as HPE will be out of the business completely.
bill
Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a
proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to
issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to
legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess
we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD...
Mike
If VSI doesn?t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license, will it be
possible to buy VAX licenses? I?m curious as about five years ago, I had to help buy
VAX/VMS licenses for a project.
3:32 p.m.
On 3/7/2020 5:23 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
On 3/7/20 9:10 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses could still run
them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated.
--
John H. Reinhardt
On Mar 7, 2020, at 5:00 AM, Michael Kerpan via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
My understanding is if something doesn't change to allow VSI to
issue VAX licenses there will be no way to legally run a VMS on
a VAX as HPE will be out of the business completely.
bill
Well that's sad news. Since VMS Software may or may not ever launch a
proper hobbyist program and has stated that they don't have the ability to
issue licenses for VAX versions of VMS, that means we have until 2021 to
legally use VMS on the vintage hardware or emulations. After that, I guess
we will have to either sail the seven seas or learn to love 4.3BSD...
Mike
If VSI doesn?t have the ability to issue VAX versions of the VMS license, will it be
possible to buy VAX licenses?? I?m curious as about five years ago, I had to help buy
VAX/VMS licenses for a project. 
9 Mar
9 Mar
10:20 a.m.
On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 4:32 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I would think that those that already have legal VAX
PAKs/licenses could
still run them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated.
The hobby PAKs _and_ the licenses have a one-year expiration.
10:33 a.m.
On 3/9/2020 12:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 4:32 PM John H. Reinhardt via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses could still run
them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated.
The hobby PAKs _and_ the licenses have a one-year expiration.
As a Hobbyist license holder since 2004 I am well aware. The language Bill used implied
that no one would be able to legally run OpenVMS on a VAX. I was saying that those who
had bought licenses previously (implying commercial and other entities) should still be
legal in running VAX OpenVMS even after HPE shuts down their OpenVMS activities. Bill may
have been intending just the Hobbyist (and educational licenses, too) but the language was
ambiguous.
--
John H. Reinhardt
1:01 p.m.
On 3/9/20 1:33 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
On 3/9/2020 12:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
Actually, as long as they can live with incorrect time Hobbyists
could use that last set of PAKs forever.
bill
On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 4:32 PM John H. Reinhardt
via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
??? I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses
could still run them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated.
The hobby PAKs _and_ the licenses have a one-year expiration.
As a Hobbyist license holder since 2004 I am well aware.? The language
Bill used implied that no one would be able to legally run OpenVMS on a
VAX.? I was saying that those who had bought licenses previously
(implying commercial and other entities) should still be legal in
running VAX OpenVMS even after HPE shuts down their OpenVMS activities.
Bill may have been intending just the Hobbyist (and educational
licenses, too) but the language was ambiguous.
2:23 p.m.
On Mar 9, 2020, at 1:01 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On 3/9/20 1:33 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
That?s from a technical perspective, from a legal perspective their license expired.
-- Chris
On 3/9/2020 12:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
Actually, as long as they can live with incorrect time Hobbyists
could use that last set of PAKs forever. On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 4:32 PM John H. Reinhardt
via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>>
wrote:
I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses could still run
them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated.
The hobby PAKs _and_ the licenses have a one-year expiration.
As a Hobbyist
license holder since 2004 I am well aware. The language Bill used implied that no one
would be able to legally run OpenVMS on a VAX. I was saying that those who had bought
licenses previously (implying commercial and other entities) should still be legal in
running VAX OpenVMS even after HPE shuts down their OpenVMS activities. Bill may have
been intending just the Hobbyist (and educational licenses, too) but the language was
ambiguous. 
4:07 p.m.
So.
At the end of the day there are three paths.
1. Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the
abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
Or
3. Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 machines and
arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters because
they can't do anything without software.
Sigh...
On Tue, 10 Mar. 2020, 8:23 am Chris Hanson via cctalk, <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Mar 9, 2020, at 1:01 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
<
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 3/9/20 1:33 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
> On 3/9/2020 12:20 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 4:32 PM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <
cctalk at
classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>>
>> I would think that those that already have legal VAX PAKs/licenses
could still run them. It's just no *NEW* PAKs could be legally generated.
>>
>>
>> The hobby PAKs _and_ the licenses have a one-year expiration.
> As a Hobbyist license holder since 2004 I am well aware. The language
Bill
used implied that no one would be able to legally run OpenVMS on a
VAX. I was saying that those who had bought licenses previously (implying
commercial and other entities) should still be legal in running VAX OpenVMS
even after HPE shuts down their OpenVMS activities. Bill may have been
intending just the Hobbyist (and educational licenses, too) but the
language was ambiguous.
Actually, as long as they can live with incorrect time Hobbyists
could use that last set of PAKs forever.
That?s from a technical perspective, from a legal perspective their
license expired.
-- Chris
7:19 p.m.
On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
So.
At the end of the day there are three paths.
1. Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the
abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
Or
3. Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 machines and
arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters because
they can't do anything without software.
Sigh...
4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable
altitude, . . .
It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do what
they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to help.
9:13 p.m.
On 10/03/2020 02:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
--
Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven
So.
At the end of the day there are three paths.
1.? Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the
abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
Or
3.? Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785
machines and
arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters
because
they can't do anything without software.
Sigh...
4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable
altitude, . . .
It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do
what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to
help.
11:31 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood
via cctalk
Sent: 10 March 2020 04:14
To: Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing
On 10/03/2020 02:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
I noticed that. I wonder how they would feel if I were to take my VAX to MakeFests with a
notice on saying how much they want for a licence to actually load software and demo an
antique machine....
Dave
On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk
wrote:
--
Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven
So.
At the end of the day there are three paths.
1. Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch
the abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
Or
3. Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785
machines and arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate
headquarters because they can't do anything without software.
Sigh...
4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable
altitude, . . .
It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do
what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to
help.
10 Mar
10 Mar
6:48 a.m.
On 3/10/20 2:31 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
They would not care and it would have no effect on their bottom
line so why should they?
bill
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood
via cctalk
Sent: 10 March 2020 04:14
To: Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing
On 10/03/2020 02:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
I noticed that. I wonder how they would feel if I were to take my VAX to MakeFests with a
notice on saying how much they want for a licence to actually load software and demo an
antique machine.... On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk
wrote:
--
Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven
So.
At the end of the day there are three paths.
1. Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch
the abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
Or
3. Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785
machines and arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate
headquarters because they can't do anything without software.
Sigh...
4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable
altitude, . . .
It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do
what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to
help.
7:34 a.m.
On 3/10/2020 8:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
On 3/10/20 2:31 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
They would not care and it would have no effect on their bottom
line so why should they?
bill
It would be bad PR.? But it's still unlikely they would care as the people who
attend Makerfests aren't usually the ones that sign the contracts.
--
John H. Reinhardt
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood
via cctalk
Sent: 10 March 2020 04:14
To: Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing
On 10/03/2020 02:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
I noticed that. I wonder how they would feel if I were to take my VAX to MakeFests with a
notice on saying how much they want for a licence to actually load software and demo an
antique machine.... On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk
wrote:
> So.
> At the end of the day there are three paths.
> 1.? Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch
> the abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
> 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
> Or
> 3.? Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785
> machines and arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate
> headquarters because they can't do anything without software.
> Sigh...
4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable
altitude, . . .
It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do
what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to
help.
--
Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven
11 Mar
11 Mar
2:04 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of John H.
Reinhardt via cctalk
Sent: 10 March 2020 14:34
To: Bill Gunshannon <bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com>; General Discussion:
On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing
On 3/10/2020 8:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
You might be surprised.....
On 3/10/20 2:31 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Rod
>> Smallwood via cctalk
>> Sent: 10 March 2020 04:14
>> To: Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing
>>
>> On 10/03/2020 02:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
>>>> So.
>>>> At the end of the day there are three paths.
>>>> 1. Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and
>>>> patch the abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
>>>> 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
>>>> Or
>>>> 3. Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785
>>>> machines and arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate
>>>> headquarters because they can't do anything without software.
>>>> Sigh...
>>>
>>> 4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable
>>> altitude, . . .
>>>
>>> It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to
>>> do what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to
>>> try to help.
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven
>>
>
> I noticed that. I wonder how they would feel if I were to take my VAX to
MakeFests with a notice on saying how much they want for a licence to
actually load software and demo an antique machine....
They would not care and it would have no effect on their bottom line
so why should they?
bill
It would be bad PR. But it's still unlikely they would care as the people
who
attend Makerfests aren't usually the ones that sign the contracts.
--
John H. Reinhardt
10 Mar
10 Mar
8:50 a.m.
On 3/10/2020 8:48 AM, Bill Gunshannon
via cctalk wrote:
On 3/10/20 2:31 AM, Dave Wade via
cctalk wrote:
They would not care and it would have
no effect on their bottom
line so why should they?
bill
One reason could be, that it makes for
good advertising and good sentiment.
Many corps sponsor just for these reasons.
- J.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk
<cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On
Behalf Of Rod Smallwood
via cctalk
Sent: 10 March 2020 04:14
To: Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist
license program is closing
Like all large US corporations they
are dollar driven
I noticed that. I wonder how they
would feel if I were to take my VAX
to MakeFests with a notice on saying
how much they want for a licence to
actually load software and demo an
antique machine.... 
11:17 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 09:48:55AM -0400, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
[...]
They would not care and it would have no effect on
their bottom
line so why should they?
I think it actually affects their bottom line, just in a way that
would not make anybody fired, and this is why nobody would care. There
is no way a CEO would say to his subCEO "you have neglected our
supporters in hobbyist groups, I fire you". This would sound like a
line from this Star Wars parody, Spaceballs. This is something Dark
Helmet would have said as a president of Helmet PE (I have no idea
what "PE" could stand for).
I really liked the idea of running VMS on simh (and learning some more
skills), even if I had to register online. But when I looked, it
seemed I would have to make Polish users group first, became its only
member and president (hehe) and only then register... Holy Schwartz,
they tried to drag me on the dark side, but I resisted.
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com **
5:59 p.m.
On 3/10/2020 1:17 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
I really liked the idea of running VMS on simh (and
learning some more
skills), even if I had to register online. But when I looked, it
seemed I would have to make Polish users group first, became its only
member and president (hehe) and only then register... Holy Schwartz,
they tried to drag me on the dark side, but I resisted.
Nope. All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org and register (follow my
earlier instructions).? They don't care what country you are from. All are welcome.?
Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist license(s) that will last until the end of 2021 at
least.
--
John H. Reinhardt
10:04 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 07:59:49PM -0500, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
[...]
Nope.
All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org and register
(follow my earlier instructions).? They don't care what country you
are from. All are welcome.? Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist
license(s) that will last until the end of 2021 at least.
Yay! Thanks for explanation. I will try this route, I just need to
sort something out (economy slows etc, or maybe spasms). But if this
is so, I would like to have that thing, and at least once write
'help'. Or 'show proc' (if memory serves).
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com **
11 Mar
11 Mar
10:10 a.m.
On 11/03/2020 00:59, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
Nope. All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org
and register
(follow my earlier instructions).? They don't care what country you
are from. All are welcome.? Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist
license(s) that will last until the end of 2021 at least.
I registered two days ago. Can I claim my hobbyist licences now or
should I wait two weeks until I end up on some internal system?
Thanks
Antonio
--
Antonio Carlini
antonio at acarlini.com
5:51 p.m.
On 3/11/2020 12:10 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:
On 11/03/2020 00:59, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk
wrote:
Last I knew it took a week or two for the information to get to HPE so they could
validate when you use the HPE registration page.? YoOu can certainly try now.? Maybe they
have sped it up.
--
John H. Reinhardt
Nope. All you have to do is go to
eisner.decuserve.org and register (follow my earlier instructions).? They don't care
what country you are from. All are welcome.? Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist
license(s) that will last until the end of 2021 at least.
I registered two days ago. Can I claim my hobbyist licences now or should I wait
two weeks until I end up on some internal system?
Thanks
Antonio
13 Mar
13 Mar
8:30 p.m.
On Mar 10, 2020, at 7:59 PM, John H. Reinhardt via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
[EXTERNAL EMAIL]
On 3/10/2020 1:17 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
Was already registered, and got my current PAK text file yesterday (2 day turnaround, not
bad).
Where?s the best set of current instructions to install from CD? I think I have actual
Hobbyist CDs.
I want to install on my 3 capable machines:
VaxStation VLC
AlphaStation 300
AlphaServer 2100 4/275
Thanks in advance!
I really liked the idea of running VMS on simh
(and learning some more
skills), even if I had to register online. But when I looked, it
seemed I would have to make Polish users group first, became its only
member and president (hehe) and only then register... Holy Schwartz,
they tried to drag me on the dark side, but I resisted.
Nope. All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org and register (follow my
earlier instructions). They don't care what country you are from. All are welcome.
Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist license(s) that will last until the end of 2021 at
least.
--
John H. Reinhardt
14 Mar
14 Mar
12:15 a.m.
On 3/13/2020 10:30 PM, Tapley, Mark B. via cctalk wrote:
Philip Wherry's notes are still one of the best out on the net.? Just ignore the SimH
portions. <https://www.wherry.com/gadgets/retrocomputing/vax-simh.html>
Since HPE nuked it's OpenVMS documentation site it's harder to find actual OpenVMS
documents online but SUNY has a V7.3 site with most available.
<https://www.itec.suny.edu/scsys/vms/OVMSDOC073/index.html>
V7.3 Install guide for VAX in HTML
<https://www.itec.suny.edu/scsys/vms/OVMSDOC073/v73/6630/6630PRO.HTML> and PDF
<https://www.itec.suny.edu/scsys/vms/OVMSDOC073/v73/documentation/pdf/OVMS_73_VAX_INSTALL.PDF>
And for Alpha in HTML
<https://www.itec.suny.edu/scsys/vms/OVMSDOC073/v73/6629/6629PRO.HTML> and PDF
<https://www.itec.suny.edu/scsys/vms/OVMSDOC073/v73/documentation/pdf/OVMS_73_alpha_install.PDF>
--
John H. Reinhardt
On Mar 10,
2020, at 7:59 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
[EXTERNAL EMAIL]
On 3/10/2020 1:17 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote:
Was already registered, and got my current PAK text file
yesterday (2 day turnaround, not bad).
Where?s the best set of current instructions to install from CD? I think I have actual
Hobbyist CDs.
I want to install on my 3 capable machines:
VaxStation VLC
AlphaStation 300
AlphaServer 2100 4/275
Thanks in advance! I really liked the idea of running VMS on simh
(and learning some more
skills), even if I had to register online. But when I looked, it
seemed I would have to make Polish users group first, became its only
member and president (hehe) and only then register... Holy Schwartz,
they tried to drag me on the dark side, but I resisted.
Nope. All you have to do is go to eisner.decuserve.org and register (follow my
earlier instructions). They don't care what country you are from. All are welcome.
Do it now and get your OpenVMS Hobbyist license(s) that will last until the end of 2021 at
least.
--
John H. Reinhardt
10 Mar
10 Mar
6:47 a.m.
On 3/10/20 12:13 AM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:
Any business that is not dollar driven will soon be out of business.
Making money is what businesses do. Sadly, that seems to be another
idea that has fallen by the wayside in the US, like trust and risk.
bill
On Tue, 10 Mar
2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
--
Like all large US corporations they are dollar driven So.
At the end of the day there are three paths.
1.? Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the
abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
Or
3.? Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785
machines and
arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters
because
they can't do anything without software.
Sigh...
4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable
altitude, . . .
It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do
what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try to
help.
23 Mar
23 Mar
11:58 p.m.
On 2020-03-10 09:47, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
?
Hello Bill,
I recommend:
https://www.amazon.com/Built-Last-Successful-Visionary-Essentials/dp/006051…
Makes a nice reading ;-)
Like all large
US corporations they are dollar driven
Any business that is not dollar driven will soon be out of business.
Making money is what businesses do.? Sadly, that seems to be another
idea that has fallen by the wayside in the US, like trust and risk.
bill
10 Mar
10 Mar
6:44 a.m.
On 3/9/20 10:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
With their own property
So.
At the end of the day there are three paths.
1.? Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the
abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
Or
3.? Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 machines
and
arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters
because
they can't do anything without software.
Sigh...
4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable
altitude, . . .
It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do
what they like, but don't value the hobbyist market enough to try
to help.
Which costs them money with very likely no ROI.
What a way to run a business. :-)
bill
3:35 p.m.
On 3/9/20 10:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
>> So.
>> At the end of the day there are three paths.
>> 1.? Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about hobbyists and patch the
>> abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
>> 2. Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
>> Or
>> 3.? Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX 11/785 machines
>> and
>> arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters because
>> they can't do anything without software.
>> Sigh...
> 4. Contemplate what would happen if dropped off from a considerable
> altitude, . . .
> It is discouraging that they have the power, and legal rights, to do what
> they like,
On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
With their own property
Exactly. Their ownership of the IP gives them the power and legal rights
to do what they like.
but don't
value the hobbyist market enough to try to help.
Which costs them money with very likely no ROI. What a way to run a business. :-)
Is a hobbyist program less effective as advertising than unrelated charity
and "image" ads to brag about it?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
4:42 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 18:36 Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote:
Based on my day to day interactions with HPE as a company, this action
doesn't surprise me at all. They don't seem to want to do anything that
isn't directly "extracting value."
Pat
On 3/9/20 10:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Some such companies spend money on advertising. A well run hobbyist
program is good advertising. It promotes brand loyalty and good PR.
but don't value the hobbyist market enough to
try to help.
Which costs them money with very likely no ROI.
4:46 p.m.
Having worked for them in also not surprised.
When they absorbed Compaq their culture changed. Significantly for the
worse.
I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and
ink cartridges in 5 years time.
On Wed, 11 Mar. 2020, 10:42 am Patrick Finnegan via cctalk, <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 10, 2020, 18:36 Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Based on my day to day interactions with HPE as a company, this action
doesn't surprise me at all. They don't seem to want to do anything that
isn't directly "extracting value."
Pat
On 3/9/20 10:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Some such companies spend money on advertising. A well run hobbyist
program is good advertising. It promotes brand loyalty and good PR.
but don't value the hobbyist market enough to
try to help.
Which costs them money with very likely no ROI.
6:02 p.m.
On 3/10/2020 6:46 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
Having worked for them in also not surprised.
When they absorbed Compaq their culture changed. Significantly for the
worse.
I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and
ink cartridges in 5 years time.
They can't, they have no printers or ink to sell.? They already broke the
company up into HP - printers, ink and PC's and HPE - Servers, etc (including OpenVMS
until it was sold or licensed to VSI).
--
John H. Reinhardt
6:24 p.m.
On 11/03/2020 01:02, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
On 3/10/2020 6:46 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
Then it is to VSI we must turn our attention. An email from every VMS
hobbyist might wake them up.
--
Having worked for them in also not surprised.
When they absorbed Compaq their culture changed.? Significantly for the
worse.
I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and
ink cartridges in 5 years time.
They can't, they have no printers or ink to sell.? They already broke
the company up into HP - printers, ink and PC's and HPE - Servers, etc
(including OpenVMS until it was sold or licensed to VSI).
11 Mar
11 Mar
9:31 a.m.
On 3/10/20 9:24 PM, Rod Smallwood via cctalk wrote:
On 11/03/2020 01:02, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
Or, flooding their business mailboxes might just piss them off.
bill
On 3/10/2020 6:46 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk
wrote:
Then it is to VSI we must turn our attention. An email from every VMS
hobbyist might wake them up.
Having worked for them in also not surprised.
When they absorbed Compaq their culture changed.? Significantly for the
worse.
I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and
ink cartridges in 5 years time.
They can't, they have no printers or ink to sell.? They already broke
the company up into HP - printers, ink and PC's and HPE - Servers, etc
(including OpenVMS until it was sold or licensed to VSI).
10 Mar
10 Mar
7:26 p.m.
And if they went that way, it would be quite a big event in the supercomputing world
because HPE now own both of the companies formerly known as SGI and Cray.
Someone on the inside is attempting to explore why this is happening. If I hear anything,
I will report back.
If something positive were to occur, IRIX might be able to be saved too.
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
On Mar 10, 2020, at 8:03 PM, John H. Reinhardt via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
?On 3/10/2020 6:46 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
Having worked for them in also not surprised.
When they absorbed Compaq their culture changed. Significantly for the
worse.
I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and
ink cartridges in 5 years time.
They can't, they have no printers or ink to sell. They already broke the
company up into HP - printers, ink and PC's and HPE - Servers, etc (including OpenVMS
until it was sold or licensed to VSI).
--
John H. Reinhardt
11 Mar
11 Mar
7:46 a.m.
If something positive were to occur, IRIX might be
able to be saved too.
Chris
Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to SGI about this and a huge
problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist license for IRIX or turning it
free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party stuff. But maybe now that's
it's expired, or all the companies things were licensed from
are gone.
--
: Ethan O'Toole
8:07 a.m.
On Wednesday (03/11/2020 at 10:46AM -0400), Ethan O'Toole wrote:
Right. I think the challenge(s) are in this space and whether or
not anyone there would have bandwidth or interest in addressing them.
No promises but my contact is at a fairly high level within HPE (and
formerly SGI) so I am hopeful it will at least get discussed.
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
If something
positive were to occur, IRIX might be able to be saved too.
Chris
Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to SGI about this and a
huge problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist license for IRIX or
turning it free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party stuff. But maybe
now that's it's expired, or all the companies things were licensed
from are gone. 
8:10 a.m.
On 3/11/20 8:07 AM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote:
No promises but my contact is at a fairly high level
within HPE (and
formerly SGI) so I am hopeful it will at least get discussed.
that's good. that is the only chance you have for getting anything done
i'd also suggest using the CHM example of getting releases in the past
8:08 a.m.
Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to SGI
about this and a huge problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist
license for IRIX or turning it free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party stuff. But
maybe now that's it's expired, or all
the companies things were licensed from are gone.
Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same company.
HP has no motivation to spend time/money to release this. Also, the only way CHM
was able to release what we did (HP1000, 68K 9000 and Apollo) was having
us release it only for non-commercial research/hobby purposes.
9:46 a.m.
On Mar 11, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
It should be noted that HP is not the only company that does this. CDC's successor
(BT) did the same with the 6000 series software, and for that matter the owner of PLATO
did this as well. Hobby, yes, open source for any purpose, no.
A company may close down, but that doesn't mean it is "gone" as far as its
property is concerned. Ownership passes to others, perhaps creditors or the like, or the
majority shareholder. Who that is may be quite hard to find out, which of course is
unfortunate if you're trying to get proper permission to do stuff with that property.
Then again, if the current owner is an individual, it may make things easier, once you get
past the hurdle of finding that individual. That was the case with PLATO recently.
paul
Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to
SGI about this and a huge problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist
license for IRIX or turning it free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party stuff. But
maybe now that's it's expired, or all
the companies things were licensed from are gone.
Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same company.
HP has no motivation to spend time/money to release this. Also, the only way CHM
was able to release what we did (HP1000, 68K 9000 and Apollo) was having
us release it only for non-commercial research/hobby purposes. 
9:57 a.m.
On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 at 17:46, Paul Koning via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
A company may close down, but that doesn't mean it is "gone" as far as its
property is concerned. Ownership passes to others, perhaps creditors or the like, or the
majority shareholder. Who that is may be quite hard to find out, which of course is
unfortunate if you're trying to get proper permission to do stuff with that property.
Indeed so. AIUI this is the case with Symbolics OpenGenera. The
company went broke, the domain name sold off, all employees
terminated, etc... They don't trade or sell anything. But the new
owners will not permit use of copies of the OS on emulators, or any
other form of distribution.
In the ZX Spectrum world, which is probably beneath the attention of
most listmembers but is a thriving and active retrocomputing/hobbyist
world and probably one of the single most active areas in the whole
hobby, a lot of games' copyrights belong to companies that no longer
exist. In a few cases, they have been bought, and vanishingly few are
still trading. Rare (now a MICROS~1 subsidiary) evolved from 1980s
outfit Ultimate Play The Game. Rainbird was owned by BT.
In many cases, original authors of games have been located, and where
applicable, if the software publishing company no longer exists, the
authors assert that copyright returned to them and they explicitly
allow free distribution.
But if some vestige of the company survives, owned by another, which
in turn is owned by another, which in turn is owned by another --
nobody knows enough about it or will take responsibility to sign off
on making the 30-40y old software free. :-(
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
5:30 p.m.
On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 05:57:16PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
[...]
Indeed so. AIUI this is the case with Symbolics
OpenGenera. The
company went broke, the domain name sold off, all employees
terminated, etc...
I am sure many of those workers were a little bit surprised about this
harsh implementation of non-disclosure agreement.
[...]
But if some vestige of the company survives, owned by
another, which
in turn is owned by another, which in turn is owned by another --
nobody knows enough about it or will take responsibility to sign off
on making the 30-40y old software free. :-(
In a future, all corpos will belong to AIs. And I guess AIs will be
interested in discovering more about their, hum, ancestry. And they
will be able to track down all remaining shoe boxen with punch cards,
and use hobbyists for mutual fun.
So all that is required is to convince current management that those
old tapes and plans and manuals have great value, which then can be
mined with some "deep CEO", once it inevitably comes. They should
believe it.
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com **
7:10 p.m.
On Thu, 12 Mar 2020 01:30:46 +0100
Tomasz Rola via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
In a future, all corpos will belong to AIs. And I
guess AIs will be
interested in discovering more about their, hum, ancestry. And they
will be able to track down all remaining shoe boxen with punch cards,
and use hobbyists for mutual fun.
So all that is required is to convince current management that those
old tapes and plans and manuals have great value, which then can be
mined with some "deep CEO", once it inevitably comes. They should
believe it.
Ha, ha, only serious? Sometimes you have to wonder, though, if either
men or machines will care at that point.
jbdigriz
---
It takes a mind, always a mind, to abstract meaning from each step through which the
machine is directed by its specific man-built mechanism.
Stanley L Jaki
"Brain, Mind, and Computers"
https://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/1972/JASA3-72Jaki.html
12:59 p.m.
On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700
Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same
company.
After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a
3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my
inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source.
Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong
person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having
moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I
understand it's his baby, but still...
Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and
on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the
binaries, but there you go.
jbdigriz
1:52 p.m.
On 3/11/20 12:59 PM, James B DiGriz wrote:
In which case, why not a FOSS release?
Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to BTOS while he was
VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them.
They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to
the software have vanished.
2:24 p.m.
On Wed, 11 Mar 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to BTOS
while he was
VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them.
They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to
the software have vanished.
So, in addition to many companies being reluctant to release rights to
IP, a lot of stuff is just lost without a trace.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
2:30 p.m.
On Mar 11, 2020, at 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Wed, 11 Mar 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
Sometimes we get lucky. Again, PLATO -- got permission to use it but the owner didn't
have a copy. Fortunately, someone else did (an actual still-running production system, on
an actual CDC mainframe) and that person was willing to do the work to copy the system in
a form we could use.
paul
Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to
BTOS while he was
VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them.
They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to
the software have vanished.
So, in addition to many companies being reluctant to release rights to IP, a lot of stuff
is just lost without a trace.
3:05 p.m.
On 11/03/2020 21:30, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
Sometimes we get lucky. Again, PLATO -- got permission to use it but the owner
didn't have a copy. Fortunately, someone else did (an actual still-running production
system, on an actual CDC mainframe) and that person was willing to do the work to copy the
system in a form we could use.
Wow. A CDC mainframe still running: I don't know why I'm surprised
(given this list) but surprised I am!
Antonio
--
Antonio Carlini
antonio at acarlini.com
4:28 p.m.
On Mar 11, 2020, at 6:05 PM, Antonio Carlini via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 11/03/2020 21:30, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
Not any more, but it was back then (2004). I believe it shut down in 2009. FAA training
system.
paul
Sometimes we get lucky. Again, PLATO -- got permission to use it but the owner
didn't have a copy. Fortunately, someone else did (an actual still-running production
system, on an actual CDC mainframe) and that person was willing to do the work to copy the
system in a form we could use.
Wow. A CDC mainframe still running: I don't know why I'm surprised (given this
list) but surprised I am!
3:01 p.m.
On 11/03/2020 21:24, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Wed, 11 Mar 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
Yup.
Parts of the DEC Networking group got sold to Cabletron and then bits
transitioned to Riverstone. Later VAX/PSI code made it as far as the US
engineering team (who by then were part of EDS iirc). I don't know
whether a copy of the DECnis code stayed with DEC - the copy with
Riverstone wouldn't have gone any further (there were big layoffs
involved so I doubt that anyone was checking that nothing vanished).
More or less the same will be true for the Riverstone code. Some of it
may have survived the fire sale a few years later but I suspect tracking
any of that down might be hard to impossible.
The code I wrote at BlueARC is still going at Hitachi Vantara but the
long-dead Si7500 code may no longer be on anyone's disks there. It was
preserved on a set of DVD-ROMs (as part of the regular backup regimen)
but the guy who handled that has left and there is probably little
incentive to make sure it hasn't slipped through the cracks.
At least in the open source world (where I now work) most things are in
a github repo. Admittedly those things do vanish every now and then but
at least you have the chance to grab something now if you think it will
be useful. Although given how interconnected things are these days,
building something in 2030 that last built on today's Ubuntu 19.10 (or
whatever) may require more effort than you think it is worth ... but at
least you'll have the source code.
Antonio
--
Antonio Carlini
antonio at acarlini.com
Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to
BTOS while he was
VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them.
They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to
the software have vanished.
So, in addition to many companies being reluctant to release rights to
IP, a lot of stuff is just lost without a trace.
3:21 p.m.
On 3/11/20 5:24 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
On Wed, 11 Mar 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
Happens all the time. Like IAS.
bill
Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to
BTOS while he was
VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them.
They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to
the software have vanished.
So, in addition to many companies being reluctant to release rights to
IP, a lot of stuff is just lost without a trace.
3:52 p.m.
On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 13:52:21 -0700
Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 3/11/20 12:59 PM, James B DiGriz wrote:
HCL, maybe? They come immediately to mind as having the
necessary clearances that many BTOS installations would have required.
Or would they have been too late in the game? I'm not clear on the time
frame of the outsourcing. Just a guess, anyway.
Of course, the code might have ended up elsewhere, too, given those
types of installations. Not the only Unisys mysteries I've ever
encountered :-)
jbdigriz
In which case, why not a FOSS release?
Bob Supnik got Unisys to release the sources to BTOS while he was
VP of engineering, but we've never been able to find a copy of them.
They outsourced support to India, and all traces to what happened to
the software have vanished.
3:18 p.m.
On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote:
On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700
Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I assume SysV means Unix SysV. Unless there has been a change
I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released
for use by the holders of the Unix IP. I have a copy of that
somewhere.
bill
Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same
company.
After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a
3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my
inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source.
Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong
person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having
moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I
understand it's his baby, but still...
Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and
on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the
binaries, but there you go.
3:26 p.m.
On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote:
Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org <https://www.tuhs.org/>
Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4
David
On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700
Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I assume SysV means Unix SysV. Unless there has been a change
I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released
for use by the holders of the Unix IP. I have a copy of that
somewhere.
bill
Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same
company.
After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a
3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my
inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source.
Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong
person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having
moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I
understand it's his baby, but still...
Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and
on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the
binaries, but there you go.
4 p.m.
IIRC, System III is not really "legal", as it was never re-licensed with a
BSD style license the way earlier editions were. Of course, the important
thing was the open source release of V7 and 32V, as that allowed the
various BSDs to be made freely available. 4.3BSD has much more in the way
of goodies than System III (or even System V) in any event.
Mike
On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 6:26 PM Katherine Barto via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote:
Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org <
https://www.tuhs.org/>
Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4
David
On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700
Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I assume SysV means Unix SysV. Unless there has been a change
I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released
for use by the holders of the Unix IP. I have a copy of that
somewhere.
bill
Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same
company.
After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a
3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my
inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source.
Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong
person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having
moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I
understand it's his baby, but still...
Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and
on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the
binaries, but there you go.
5:06 p.m.
On 3/11/20 6:26 PM, Katherine Barto wrote:
The last time I wanted access to anything newer than V7 I had
to provide a copy of an original AT&T Unix license. I haven't
looked lately.
bill
On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via
cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote:
Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org
Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4 On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700
Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
I assume SysV means Unix SysV. ?Unless there has been a change
I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released
for use by the holders of the Unix IP. ?I have a copy of that
somewhere.
bill
Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same
company.
After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a
3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my
inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source.
Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong
person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having
moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I
understand it's his baby, but still...
Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and
on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the
binaries, but there you go.
5:52 p.m.
The PDP-11 and VAX versions of BSD have been freely available for years. As
soon as V7 and 32V were declared open source, that meant that everybody had
a valid Unix source license and were therefore eligible to download the
BSDs. IIRC, Novell or Lucent or whoever owns the copyright these days also
released whatever bits of V8-V10 could be dug up under a hobbyist license,
but unlike V7 and earlier, it's not actually open source. I'd love to see
System V similarly made available, but frankly BSD has more toys to play
with anyway.
Mike
On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 8:06 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 3/11/20 6:26 PM, Katherine Barto wrote:
Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org
Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4
The last time I wanted access to anything newer than V7 I had
to provide a copy of an original AT&T Unix license. I haven't
looked lately.
bill
> On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>
> On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote:
>> On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700
>> Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
>> <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same
>>> company.
>>>
>> After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a
>> 3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my
>> inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source.
>> Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong
>> person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having
>> moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I
>> understand it's his baby, but still...
>> Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off
and
on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I
don't even have the
binaries, but there you go.
I assume SysV means Unix SysV. Unless there has been a change
I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released
for use by the holders of the Unix IP. I have a copy of that
somewhere.
bill
6:26 p.m.
On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 20:06:04 -0400
Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 3/11/20 6:26 PM, Katherine Barto wrote:
The last time I wanted access to anything newer than V7 I had
to provide a copy of an original AT&T Unix license. I haven't
looked lately.
bill
Something like that may be a factor in the S1500. I have a running
system, but not with the full kit. No dev tools, no sources, no DNIO,
(for interfacing with DX10 and DNOS filesystems on 990s.), no TCP/IP,
and a few other things.
At one point the maintainer was offering source and binary
licenses, though for rather princely sums, as far as a hobbyist would
be concerned. I no longer see them on their website, but presumably
they're still available. If, however, they can be *sold* without
constraints from the current Unix owner, I would hope they could just as
well be opened up, and I would hope a similar argument could apply to
the OpenVMS situation.
jbdigriz
On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via
cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote:
Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org
Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4 On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700
Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org
<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
>
> Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same
> company.
>
After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned
over to a 3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my
inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or
source. Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm
just the wrong person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer
has the time, having moved on to newer platforms. In which case,
why not a FOSS release? I understand it's his baby, but still...
Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on
off and on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't
even have the binaries, but there you go.
I assume SysV means Unix SysV. ?Unless there has been a change
I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released
for use by the holders of the Unix IP. ?I have a copy of that
somewhere.
bill
5:59 p.m.
On Wed, Mar 11, 2020, 4:26 PM Katherine Barto via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Including System III, 32V, and BSD ports up to and including 4.4
32v has the grant. System III was not and is only available to compare with
other versions. You have to google for all the sources...
On Mar 11, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Bill Gunshannon via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 3/11/20 3:59 PM, James B DiGriz via cctalk wrote:
Unix newer than V7 is available at https://www.tuhs.org <
https://www.tuhs.org/ On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 08:08:43 -0700
Al Kossow via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I assume SysV means Unix SysV. Unless there has been a change
I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released
for use by the holders of the Unix IP. I have a copy of that
somewhere.
bill
Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same
company.
After HP bought TI's DSG lines, TI SysV was eventually turned over to a
3rd party, who has so far been unresponsive to my
inquiries about possible hobbyist licensing, either binary or source.
Evidently S1500's may still in use somewhere, unless I'm just the wrong
person asking, or the maintainer simply no longer has the time, having
moved on to newer platforms. In which case, why not a FOSS release? I
understand it's his baby, but still...
Oh, well, I guess there's always the Linux port I was working on off and
on. Hate to have to reinvent the DNIO stuff when I don't even have the
binaries, but there you go.
4:40 p.m.
On Wed, 11 Mar 2020 18:18:14 -0400
Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
(Regarding TI SysV)
I assume SysV means Unix SysV. Unless there has been a change
I have not heard about nothing newer than V7 has been released
for use by the holders of the Unix IP. I have a copy of that
somewhere.
bill
Already have V7. Thanks, though.
TI's SysV was a licensed port of AT&T SysV, running on the TI S1500
Nubus machines. AKA HP 9000/1500. I have an S1505, one 68030 CPU.
SysV Rev 3.3, IIRC, but I haven't fired it up in a long time. That will
be remedied shortly. Previous TI Business Systems after the 990s,
BS300,600,&800 machines ran Xenix, IIRC, on Intel processors.
Very little on the web about them. But I'm looking.
No, Mac Nubus cards won't even fit on the S1500s. Opinions differ as to
who broke the standard :-) Then there's the matter of drivers.
jbdigriz
5:38 p.m.
On Mar 11, 2020, at 8:08, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote (after Ethan O'Toole
I think):
And yet, classic-3000 MPE (V/R, V/P, V/E) does not involve licensed third
party stuff. At least I think it does not, I think the OS is uniquely
developed by HP(E).
MPE/iX does, I know I?ve been told that it includes a Streams
implementation from Mentat which I understand was licensed on a
per-copy royalty basis. That makes a zero-price license (even more of)
a money-losing proposition.
It also makes release of classic-3000 MPE dangerous in that people may
assume that the release applies to MPE/iX as well, and that could leave
HP liable for additional per-copy royalties in future.
I think MPE/iX is not quite like OpenVMS in that there is no per-installation
authorization key for the OS. The OS does check a machine ID in "stable
storage" that is expected to indicate that the machine is an HP3000 (as
opposed to an HP9000), and there are some other features that I believe
indicate the class of HP3000 and I think MPE/iX and add-on software may
check this for other purposes too.
Which means that if the companies and people who are due per-copy royalties
get the idea that they can goose that revenue stream through legal threats,
HP(E) maybe can't provide a very good guesstimate of how many additional
copies (for which royalties have not been paid) are out there. There might
be some arguments made that the payment should be based on manufacturing
counts of PA-RISC HP3000s and HP9000s. It could get expensive.
Well, that's my guess of why then-HP didn't want to go there, and I don't
think HPE today would think any differently. There may yet be a revenue
stream from MPE/iX licenses as its paying users upgrade to newer hardware
and the Stromasys emulator.
Years ago us
SGI hobbyists were able to talk to SGI about this and a huge problem SGI had with any kind
of hobbyist
license for IRIX or turning it free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party stuff. But
maybe now that's it's expired, or all
the companies things were licensed from are gone.
Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same company. HP has no motivation to spend time/money to release
this. Also, the only way CHM
was able to release what we did (HP1000, 68K 9000 and Apollo) was having
us release it only for non-commercial research/hobby purposes.
That was well done. I just wish y'all had got FOCUS 9000 included in that.
Earlier than 68K and maybe HP didn?t have the bits any more but I think
some folks have some bits. May be AT&T-encumbered but no more so than the
68K 9000 bits.
-Frank McConnell
6:11 p.m.
On 3/11/20 5:38 PM, Frank McConnell wrote:
That was well done. I just wish y'all had got
FOCUS 9000 included in that.
Earlier than 68K and maybe HP didn?t have the bits any more but I think
some folks have some bits.
It was all just luck and timing. The building that 1000 development was
literally about to be torn down, and the guy who was turning out the
lights didn't want to see it all die. He was also in touch with the
people shutting down 9000/Apollo support and we got the agreements
pulled together roughly the same time with the help of Anna Mancini,
who has since retired.
3000 was messy, they were in the same situation, but they wanted MPE/ix
released, but couldn't get it to go. We tried to make classic happen but
the two got intertwingled with the lawyers so it died.
12 Mar
12 Mar
2:11 p.m.
On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 08:08:43AM -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
Which would be great - anyone still running OpenVMS on VAX for business
purposes presumably has the appropriate (non-expiring) licenses anyway.
So having OpenVMS VAX (and maybe even Alpha) released with an
eternal hobbyist license (strictly non-commercial research/hobby
purposes) would not only be a great win, but all we can really ask
for.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
Years ago us SGI hobbyists were able to talk to
SGI about this and a huge problem SGI had with any kind of hobbyist
license for IRIX or turning it free is it's fully of licensed 3rd party stuff. But
maybe now that's it's expired, or all
the companies things were licensed from are gone.
Release of Classic HP3000 died for the same reason from the same company.
HP has no motivation to spend time/money to release this. Also, the only way CHM
was able to release what we did (HP1000, 68K 9000 and Apollo) was having
us release it only for non-commercial research/hobby purposes.
10 Mar
10 Mar
6:07 p.m.
On Mar 10, 2020, at 4:46 PM, Doug Jackson via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I'd be stunned if they existed in a form other that selling printers and
ink cartridges in 5 years time.
HP sells printers, HPE owns the rights to VMS. These days they?re two different
companies.
Zane
2:48 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 10:07:45AM +1100, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote:
At the end of the day there are three paths.
1. Accept that HP doesn't give two hoots about
hobbyists and patch the
abandoned operating system to fix the problem.
Welcome to the eyepatch-and-parrot approach of the rest of us on closed-source
platforms which never had a hobbyist programme to start with and/or the IP has
been scattered to the winds and it's unclear who to approach for a licence.
2. Declare that we need to develop an open
replacement.
There is FreeVMS, but there also doesn't seem to have been any progress on it
in the last decade and its domain has been lost and taken over by a squatter.
Writing an operating system is *hard*, way beyond a weekend's hacking which is
how most open source projects get going. Cloning an existing one is doubly-so
because it has to be bug-compatible.
Linux has taken thirty years to get this far. It's arguable what is "major"
but
to a rough approximation, there are no good open source clones of other
operating systems of similar complexity: I'm aware of FreeDOS, AROS, EmuTOS and
a few others, but they're relatively simple.
3. Accept that HP actually owns the rights to our VAX
11/785 machines and
arrange for them to be dropped off at their corporate headquarters because
they can't do anything without software.
Will this "drop off" be by B-52? :)
8:06 a.m.
On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 3:48 AM Peter Corlett via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote
Linux never was a thing on the VAX that was very good. It was too late in
its life cycle to get enough love.
Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the
VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more
concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of
them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :(
Warner
2. Declare
that we need to develop an open replacement.
There is FreeVMS, but there also doesn't seem to have been any progress on
it
in the last decade and its domain has been lost and taken over by a
squatter.
Writing an operating system is *hard*, way beyond a weekend's hacking
which is
how most open source projects get going. Cloning an existing one is
doubly-so
because it has to be bug-compatible.
Linux has taken thirty years to get this far. It's arguable what is
"major" but
to a rough approximation, there are no good open source clones of other
operating systems of similar complexity: I'm aware of FreeDOS, AROS,
EmuTOS and
a few others, but they're relatively simple.
8:23 a.m.
I'm a genuine hobbyist - I've been trying to keep examples of every
os/system I've ever worked with to play with now that I've retired (either
hardware or emulation based). My VAX equipment turned to carbonised scrap
due to lightning a while ago and I'm now emulation based and have been
using the Hobbyist licence, but it looks as though it's just becoming too
much hassle to do it any more. So I'm dropping the whole thing - sad, but
I don't have time for nonsense any more.
On the upside, a system I've never worked on has ramped up greatly - I'm
having a lot of fun with Multics and the dps8m emulator/simulator. HPE -
have a look at the way Honeywell handled their legacy stuff and take a
lesson.
On Tue, 10 Mar 2020 at 17:07, Warner Losh via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 3:48 AM Peter Corlett via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote
on
2.
Declare that we need to develop an open replacement.
There is FreeVMS, but there also doesn't seem to have been any progress it
in the last decade and its domain has been lost and taken over by a
squatter.
Writing an operating system is *hard*, way beyond a weekend's hacking
which is
how most open source projects get going. Cloning an existing one is
doubly-so
because it has to be bug-compatible.
Linux has taken thirty years to get this far. It's arguable what is
"major" but
to a rough approximation, there are no good open source clones of other
operating systems of similar complexity: I'm aware of FreeDOS, AROS,
EmuTOS and
a few others, but they're relatively simple.
Linux never was a thing on the VAX that was very good. It was too late in
its life cycle to get enough love.
Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the
VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more
concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of
them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :(
Warner
8:41 a.m.
On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
I'm a genuine hobbyist - I've been trying to
keep examples of every
os/system I've ever worked with to play with now that I've retired (either
hardware or emulation based). My VAX equipment turned to carbonised scrap
due to lightning a while ago and I'm now emulation based and have been
using the Hobbyist licence, but it looks as though it's just becoming too
much hassle to do it any more. So I'm dropping the whole thing - sad, but
I don't have time for nonsense any more.
Google "pakgen.c" and continue to enjoy your retirement. ;)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
8:44 a.m.
On Tue, 2020-03-10 09:06:57 -0600, Warner Losh via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 3:48 AM Peter Corlett via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote
I quite apologize for that!
Linux has taken thirty years to get this far.
It's arguable what
is "major" but to a rough approximation, there are no good open
source clones of other operating systems of similar complexity:
I'm aware of FreeDOS, AROS, EmuTOS and a few others, but they're
relatively simple.
Linux never was a thing on the VAX that was very good. It was too late in
its life cycle to get enough love. Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice,
though, to implement the
VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more
concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of
them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :(
There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for a
good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite failed
(and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for Linux, care
for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs silently
expecting IEEE floating point support.
I still have a good number of VAXen around, though all powered off
and in good storage. We're actually searching for a larger room to put
all the old iron in there, get them on cables (power, network and
serial) and eventually even restart on hacking them.
Hacking VAXen was a great thing do to! ...at least for me. I learned
so much from doing so, about Linux, libc, their interface, about
Binutils and GCC. It really made me "fit" for paid business. But lets
face it: I'm in the fourties, have a family and a day still does only
have 24 hours.
So... Once getting all my hardware into usable condition is settled,
I'd be quite willing to hand out serial and power access to them, for
whatever you'd like to do. (If it's not already too late.)
MfG, JBG
--
9:01 a.m.
Am I forgetting, but isn't BSD (4.3/4.4 as I recall) on the VAX? That
seems more suitable for running on classic hardware than moving to
something newer.
Of course I got rid of all of my 11/780 and 11/785 systems (along with
a smattering of VAXStations) years ago so I don't have any particular
interest here. ;-)
TTFN - Guy
On Tue, 2020-03-10 at 16:44 +0100, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote:
On Tue, 2020-03-10 09:06:57 -0600, Warner Losh via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 3:48 AM Peter Corlett via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote
I quite apologize for that!
Linux has taken thirty years to get this far.
It's arguable what
is "major" but to a rough approximation, there are no good open
source clones of other operating systems of similar complexity:
I'm aware of FreeDOS, AROS, EmuTOS and a few others, but they're
relatively simple.
Linux never was a thing on the VAX that was very good. It was too
late in
its life cycle to get enough love. Linux and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice,
though, to
implement the
VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were
more
concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what
became of
them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken
links. :(
There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for
a
good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite
failed
(and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for Linux,
care
for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs silently
expecting IEEE floating point support.
I still have a good number of VAXen around, though all powered off
and in good storage. We're actually searching for a larger room to
put
all the old iron in there, get them on cables (power, network and
serial) and eventually even restart on hacking them.
Hacking VAXen was a great thing do to! ...at least for me. I
learned
so much from doing so, about Linux, libc, their interface, about
Binutils and GCC. It really made me "fit" for paid business. But lets
face it: I'm in the fourties, have a family and a day still does only
have 24 hours.
So... Once getting all my hardware into usable condition is
settled,
I'd be quite willing to hand out serial and power access to them, for
whatever you'd like to do. (If it's not already too late.)
MfG, JBG
9:08 a.m.
4.3 BSD Quasijarus by M.Sokolov should be the last OS for VAXen,
I had it run on a MVII with UC08, a Tandberg SLR5 and some SCSI disk.
Should be still on the disk, have a copy on my webserver
(www.tiffe.de/Robotron) and there is a github repository somewhere
available.
Regards,
Holm
Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote:
Am I forgetting, but isn't BSD (4.3/4.4 as I
recall) on the VAX? That
seems more suitable for running on classic hardware than moving to
something newer.
Of course I got rid of all of my 11/780 and 11/785 systems (along with
a smattering of VAXStations) years ago so I don't have any particular
interest here. ;-)
TTFN - Guy
[..]
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741
20 Mar
20 Mar
10:36 a.m.
On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote:
I'm still here to help. :)
I expect to get at least one of my VAXen online RSN (a 4000/60, with
TURBOchannel). As in a couple of weeks' time (if only not that damn COVID
thing!). It boots our ancient VAX/Linux port with an NFS-root over a PMAD
interface. Other machines may follow.
Maciej
Linux and/or
NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the
VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more
concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of
them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :(
There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for a
good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite failed
(and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for Linux, care
for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs silently
expecting IEEE floating point support.
2:28 p.m.
Hi Maciej!
Long time no see!
On Fri, 2020-03-20 17:36:25 +0000, Maciej W. Rozycki <macro at linux-mips.org>
wrote:
On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk
wrote:
I'm still here to help. :)
<3
Linux
and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the
VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more
concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of
them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :(
There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for a
good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite failed
(and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for Linux, care
for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs silently
expecting IEEE floating point support. I expect to get at least one of my VAXen online RSN
(a 4000/60, with
TURBOchannel). As in a couple of weeks' time (if only not that damn COVID
thing!). It boots our ancient VAX/Linux port with an NFS-root over a PMAD
interface. Other machines may follow.
Actually, I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location
to put all of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable
power plugs, and just today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm
unsure (to use fair language) when there'll be a really up-to-date
working Linux port. But maybe at some time, there'll be one!
MfG, JBG
--
3:58 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Jan-Benedict Glaw
via cctalk
Sent: 20 March 2020 21:29
To: Maciej W. Rozycki <macro at linux-mips.org>
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>;
Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk>
Subject: Re: HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing
Hi Maciej!
Long time no see!
On Fri, 2020-03-20 17:36:25 +0000, Maciej W. Rozycki <macro at linux-
mips.org> wrote:
Out of interest, what controllable power plugs (sockets?) are you using?
Regards
Rob
On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk
wrote:
I'm still here to help. :)
<3
Linux
and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to
implement the VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though
there were more concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I
don't know what became of them. Google shows a smattering of
efforts littered with broken links. :(
There was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for
a good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite
failed (and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for
Linux, care for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs
silently expecting IEEE floating point support. I expect to get at least one of my VAXen online
RSN (a 4000/60, with
TURBOchannel). As in a couple of weeks' time (if only not that damn
COVID thing!). It boots our ancient VAX/Linux port with an NFS-root
over a PMAD interface. Other machines may follow.
Actually, I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location to put all
of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable power plugs, and just
today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm unsure (to use fair
language) when there'll be a really up-to-date working Linux port. But maybe
at some time, there'll be one!
MfG, JBG
--
5:21 p.m.
On Fri, 20 Mar 2020, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Not a question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI remote site
manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal server
unit, for 5 years now.
The reason I chose that device over alternatives (and with the amount of
stuff to do with vintage hardware I chose to stay away from a homebrew
solution so as to reduce distractions) was its ability to automatically
power-cycle sockets if a device on the network (possibly one powered from
the socket controlled) is probed dead, so as to reboot a stuck piece of
communication equipment in an unattended manner. This has been important
to me as I cannot afford a travel to my lab whenever a minor disruption
happens.
It has dual power inputs too for redundant supply (I found it useful if a
UPS fails, which I have seen happen many times with expired batteries even
if mains supply remains live) and can also monitor the current load (at
individual sockets) and the temperature, and then shut sockets selectively
down automatically if thresholds are exceeded.
The serial ports use 8P8C modular sockets, so I had some fun making
proper 8P8C-MMJ patchcords for these console ports that use an MMJ socket
rather than a D-sub connector (for those ready-made cables are widely
available).
As one I have got has 8/8 sockets/serial ports only I now have a second
one on the way.
Maciej
Actually,
I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location to put all
of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable power plugs, and just
today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm unsure (to use fair
language) when there'll be a really up-to-date working Linux port. But maybe
at some time, there'll be one!
Out of interest, what controllable power plugs (sockets?) are you using?
21 Mar
21 Mar
1:34 a.m.
On Sat, 2020-03-21 00:21:16 +0000, Maciej W. Rozycki <macro at linux-mips.org>
wrote:
On Fri, 20 Mar 2020, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Not a question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI remote site
manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal server
unit, for 5 years now.
That's this product line, itn's it?
https://www.wti.com/c-93-cpm-800-2-series-console-server-power-control-comb…
That's neat! I actually never stumbled over this manufacturer, it
actually looks quite like what is needed.
MfG, JBG
--
Actually,
I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location to put all
of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable power plugs, and just
today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm unsure (to use fair
language) when there'll be a really up-to-date working Linux port. But maybe
at some time, there'll be one!
Out of interest, what controllable power plugs (sockets?) are you using?
7:44 a.m.
On Sat, 21 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote:
It is, however 5 years ago the choice was different and much smaller (in
this category). They have since switched from Freescale Power to ARM as
the hardware platform, and presumably still use Linux with a custom app to
drive it.
Control CLI access is over SSHv2 over IPv4/IPv6; likewise serial port
access (both ways). Per-port and per-plug user accounts can be created.
There's also control HTTPS and I believe telnet access available, but who
needs that? Of course both can be disabled.
Not a
question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI remote site
manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal server
unit, for 5 years now.
That's this product line, itn's it?
https://www.wti.com/c-93-cpm-800-2-series-console-server-power-control-comb…
That's neat! I actually never stumbled over this
manufacturer, it
actually looks quite like what is needed.
As I say I did quite a research at the time. The usual manufacturers I
knew of back then didn't have the features I needed.
Maciej
24 Mar
24 Mar
2:08 a.m.
l?r 2020-03-21 klockan 14:44 +0000 skrev Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk:
On Sat, 21 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote:
It is, however 5 years ago the choice was different and much smaller
(in
this category). They have since switched from Freescale Power to ARM
as
the hardware platform, and presumably still use Linux with a custom
app to
drive it.
Control CLI access is over SSHv2 over IPv4/IPv6; likewise serial
port
access (both ways). Per-port and per-plug user accounts can be
created.
There's also control HTTPS and I believe telnet access available, but
who
needs that? Of course both can be disabled.
telnet ? that is very much indeed useful if someone wants to run a pure
old school desktop while managing !
Not a
question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI
remote site
manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal
server
unit, for 5 years now.
That's this product line, itn's it?
https://www.wti.com/c-93-cpm-800-2-series-console-server-power-control-comb…
3:18 a.m.
'telnet ? that is very much indeed useful if someone wants to run a pure
old school desktop while managing !'
He he...
Of course it should be said that that old gear using Telnet shouldn't be
connected to the wider internet.
It's kind of funny when a kid in Sydney discovers he can turn off a city
block in Melbourne....
Its frightening what I've learnt as a security guy working in control and
data acquisition gear (SCADA) for various utility companies....
In a very Not Funny way...
Doug
On Tue, 24 Mar. 2020, 8:08 pm Stefan Skoglund via cctalk, <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
l?r 2020-03-21 klockan 14:44 +0000 skrev Maciej W.
Rozycki via cctalk:
On Sat, 21 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw wrote:
> > Not a question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI
> > remote site
> > manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal
> > server
> > unit, for 5 years now.
>
> That's this product line, itn's it?
>
>
https://www.wti.com/c-93-cpm-800-2-series-console-server-power-control-comb…
It is, however 5 years ago the choice was different and much smaller
(in
this category). They have since switched from Freescale Power to ARM
as
the hardware platform, and presumably still use Linux with a custom
app to
drive it.
Control CLI access is over SSHv2 over IPv4/IPv6; likewise serial
port
access (both ways). Per-port and per-plug user accounts can be
created.
There's also control HTTPS and I believe telnet access available, but
who
needs that? Of course both can be disabled.
telnet ? that is very much indeed useful if someone wants to run a pure
old school desktop while managing !
21 Mar
21 Mar
10:03 a.m.
Out of interest, what controllable power plugs
(sockets?) are you using?
Not a question for me, but for the record I have used a WTI remote site
manager, essentially a combined power distribution and terminal server
unit, for 5 years now.
1:25 a.m.
On Fri, 2020-03-20 22:58:35 -0000, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>
wrote:
I've bought a good pile of those from a local Do-It-Yourself brand
("OBI"), which was this product:
https://www.obi.de/hausfunksteuerung/wifi-stecker-schuko/p/2291706
Though I don't use the original firmware, but started to write
something on my own: https://github.com/jbglaw/obi-steckdose .
That's not completely finished, but my intent is to have the plug
available for powering the device, as well as using the ESP8266's
serial port (in combination with a MAX232) to make it a terminal
server as well. (Also, it shall be able to log any traffic to a Syslog
server, so that occassional Oopses etc. are preserved.)
As an alternative which can actually still be bought, I'd like to
evaluate the Shelly Plug S (https://shelly.cloud/shelly-plug-s/), but
I don't have it here right now.
MfG, JBG
--
Actually,
I'm searching (more active than ever) for a proper location to put all
of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable power plugs, and just
today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm unsure (to use fair
language) when there'll be a really up-to-date working Linux port. But maybe
at some time, there'll be one!
Out of interest, what controllable power plugs (sockets?) are you using?
20 Mar
20 Mar
4:38 p.m.
On 20/03/2020 21:28, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk wrote:
Hi Maciej!
Long time no see!
On Fri, 2020-03-20 17:36:25 +0000, Maciej W. Rozycki <macro at linux-mips.org>
wrote:
Considering the struggle I'm having installing any version of NetBSD on
any of my VAX systems that would nice to have.
Rod Smallwood - Digital Equipment Corporation? - 1975 - 1985
--
On Tue, 10 Mar 2020, Jan-Benedict Glaw via cctalk
wrote:
I'm still here to help. :)
<3
Linux
and/or NetBSD/vax would be a good choice, though, to implement the
VAX's system calls and execute it's binaries. Though there were more
concerted efforts to do this years ago, but I don't know what became of
them. Google shows a smattering of efforts littered with broken links. :(
There
was a vax-linux port started by others, and I cared for it for a
good number of years. My life changed a lot since then, I quite failed
(and failed hard!) to bring up the needed time to care for Linux, care
for GCC and Binutils, GNU libc and all those programs silently
expecting IEEE floating point support. I expect to get at least one of my VAXen online
RSN (a 4000/60, with
TURBOchannel). As in a couple of weeks' time (if only not that damn COVID
thing!). It boots our ancient VAX/Linux port with an NFS-root over a PMAD
interface. Other machines may follow.
Actually, I'm searching (more active
than ever) for a proper location
to put all of my hardware to. I already have shelves, controllable
power plugs, and just today an EPROM reader/writer arrived. Though I'm
unsure (to use fair language) when there'll be a really up-to-date
working Linux port. But maybe at some time, there'll be one!
MfG, JBG
10 Mar
10 Mar
12:38 p.m.
Since HP is killing the Hobbyist program, you all should make a Hobbyist
license key generator.
That solves the issue forever.
- Ethan
1:17 p.m.
On Mar 10, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Ethan O'Toole via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Since HP is killing the Hobbyist program, you all should make a Hobbyist license key
generator.
That solves the issue forever.
The difficulty is that people are looking for a solution that is legal.
paul
4:41 p.m.
Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
What's legal?
Wasn't there that thing in the past with SARS, where the US Government
was threatening to break the BAYER Patent of an Medicament, if BAYER wouldn't sell
that cheaply to americans? (or something like this?)
What about the International Court of Justice?
What about Mohammad Mossadegh?
What about Maduro in Venezuela?
Please define what "legal" means to you.
BTW: There is no need to make an "Hobbyist license key generator", that
thing already exists (as can be read in that thread here) and is
available in source code.
Regards,
Holm
--
Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741
On Mar 10, 2020, at 3:38 PM, Ethan O'Toole
via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Since HP is killing the Hobbyist program, you all should make a Hobbyist license key
generator.
That solves the issue forever.
The difficulty is that people are looking for a solution that is legal.
paul
5:55 p.m.
On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 12:41:33AM +0100, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote:
What about the International Court of Justice?
Hi, can we please not go down this route on this list?
I'm drowning in such things on social media as it is. I like to
hang out on this last as a refuge from all that.
Thanks.
mcl
7 Mar
7 Mar
10:48 a.m.
On Sat, 7 Mar 2020, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
For those interested, HPE has finally, formally
announced the end of their
participation in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.? A number of people have
received the below message from HPE, probably everyone they have on record
as having current Hobbyist licenses.
I humbly suggest that HPE might issue VAX hobbyist licenses that don't
expire since they and VSI don't have a significant financial interest in it.
Removing the expiration date does not remove any obligation from the licence
holder and does not remove HPE's rights as the owner of the software.
Alpha and Itanium licenses are a differant matter, there is still a market
for them and development continuues to some degree.
I only run an Alpha hobby machine so I have nothing to gain from a lifetime
VAX license. I have both PMDF and Multinet licenses that don't expire and
I paid honest money for them but I doubt I can afford the price of a VMS
license.
--
Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear,
Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!"
** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black
11 Mar
11 Mar
10:46 a.m.
To see if HP is still issuing VAX hobby licenses, a few days ago I applied for
same directly online. Today I received the following in a similar manner as
others have described:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello dear OpenVMS Hobbyist,
?
Please see attached for PAKs to use on your VAX or Alpha.
The attached file is a DCL command file; to load your PAKs simply execute it
?
$ @Hobbyist-USE-FINALVA.txt
?
Please read the following special notification.
?
? =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
? Dear HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist,
--snip--
The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be the
last set. Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses.
Attached is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. These final
licenses are valid through December 31st, 2021. We hope that this additional
validity period will enable users to plan for the future.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I received the above from: OpenVMS Customer Lab <openvmscustomerlab at hpe.com>.
I intend to contact them about a permanent hobbyist license - and as others
have said, it would make sense for all of us to do so. May I suggest the
following format for that contact:
1. Thank them for the hobbyist program!
2. Explain how it has made you appreciate HP more because of their willingness
to offer such a program.
3. State how you have helped spread the word about the goodness of HP because
of the program.
4. Express disappointment that the program is ending - and how it will affect
your hobby.
5. Ask if HP would be willing to consider offering a permanent hobbyist
license.
6. Suggest that there would be no downside to HP and would enhance the
goodwill that the program brings to HPE - especially since many hobbyists
also work with/for major purchasers of IT equipment.
Regards,
Lyle
--
On Sat, 7 Mar 2020 11:48:20 -0700 (MST)
Richard Loken via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Sat, 7 Mar 2020, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk
wrote:
--
73 NM6Y
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
https://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
For those interested, HPE has finally, formally
announced the end of their
participation in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.? A number of people have
received the below message from HPE, probably everyone they have on record
as having current Hobbyist licenses.
I humbly suggest that HPE might issue VAX hobbyist licenses that don't
expire since they and VSI don't have a significant financial interest in it.
Removing the expiration date does not remove any obligation from the licence
holder and does not remove HPE's rights as the owner of the software.
Alpha and Itanium licenses are a differant matter, there is still a market
for them and development continuues to some degree.
I only run an Alpha hobby machine so I have nothing to gain from a lifetime
VAX license. I have both PMDF and Multinet licenses that don't expire and
I paid honest money for them but I doubt I can afford the price of a VMS
license. 
8 Mar
8 Mar
9:14 a.m.
John,
Thanks for the heads up. What would you suggest one enter for the mandatory
fields: Participating Chapter * and Membership Number *
Lee Courtney
On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 3:34 AM John H. Reinhardt via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
For those interested, HPE has finally, formally
announced the end of their
participation in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program. A number of people have
received the below message from HPE, probably everyone they have on record
as having current Hobbyist licenses.
If you have any current or future ( at least before the end of 2021 )
interest in Hobbyist licenses for any version of OpenVMS from 5.0 through
8.4 for VAX ( only up to 7.3) or Alpha and Itanium, then register now. HPE
is looking to find out how many are interested in Hobbyist offerings and
even though the new license will be good through 2021, I don't expect them
to be generating them past the end of 2020 and maybe sooner.
Register for Hobbyist PAKs at one of the following (I suggest the HPE
address first):
https://www.hpe.com/h41268/live/index_e.aspx?qid=24548
http://plato.ccsscorp.com/hobbyist_registration.php
Note the underscore between hobbyist and registration in
hobbyist_registration.
One Hobbyist user reports this:
I?ve just received an update from the OpenVMS Customer lab:
Here?s the message from the OpenVMS team. The idea was that hobbyists
would visit the site and renew their licenses, and in response, we would
provide the final set of licenses,
explaining the scenario:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
As we approach the end of the HPE OpenVMS V8.4 standard support
period, HPE
plans to conclude the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program.
The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be
the last set.
Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses.
Attached
is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. These final
licenses
are valid through December 31st, 2021. We hope that this additional
validity
period will enable users to plan for the future.
Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are
encouraged to
purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact
[Fellman, Jon]
<jon.fellman at hpe.com <mailto:jon.fellman at hpe.com>> for the
same.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Cheers, Wiz!!
John H. Reinhardt
*From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE [mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE] *On
Behalf Of *David Moylan
*Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 4:14 PM
*To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE
*Subject:* [HECnet] HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing
Hi all,
Just received the e-mail below. I?ve hunted around all the various
Hobbyist locations and licensing pages and can?t find any additional
information.
I?ve already replied back to ask what the impact of Hobbyist renewal
licensing will be. I have no further information at this stage.
Have others received this as well? Does anyone have any further knowledge
on this?
I can see a few people have forwarded/posted the same message on
comp.os.vms.
Cheers, Wiz!!
*From:*OpenVMS Customer Lab [mailto:openvmscustomerlab at hpe.com]
*Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 3:13 PM
*Cc:* OpenVMS Customer Lab
*Subject:* OpenVMS Hobbyist Notification
Dear HPE OpenVMS hobbyist,
This is to inform you that HPE is concluding the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist
license program in alignment with the HPE OpenVMS support roadmap.
If you wish to understand more details, please reach out to us at the
earliest through the usual license renewal webpage.
Thank you.
HPE OpenVMS team
--
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell
1:21 p.m.
On 3/8/2020 11:14 AM, Lee Courtney wrote:
John,
Thanks for the heads up. What would you suggest one enter for the mandatory fields:
Participating Chapter * and Membership Number *
Lee Courtney
You need to belong to a DECUS chapter in order to get the Hobbyist license. The easiest
way now (and cheapest) is to ssh to eisner.decus.org and log in with the username of
"REGISTRATION". That will take you through the process of getting an account.
These instructions are also a the bottom the page at <https://eisner.decus.org/> As
a result you get a DECUS member number which you can use on the HPE Hobbyist registration
site. Participating Chapter would be "DECUServe" (it's at the end of the
list).
IIRC there is about a two week wait from the time you get your member number on Eisner
until the number is active in the HPE database for the Hobbyist license so you may have to
wait a bit. In the meantime you have an Eisner account which is an Alphaserver DS20
running OpenVMS V8.4 to play with. If you are new to VMS then "HELP" is your
friend. You can find out just about anything you wanted to know starting with
"HELP".
John H Reinhardt
On Sat, Mar 7, 2020 at 3:34 AM John H. Reinhardt via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>> wrote:
For those interested, HPE has finally, formally announced the end of their
participation in the OpenVMS Hobbyist Program.? A number of people have received the below
message from HPE, probably everyone they have on record as having current Hobbyist
licenses.
If you have any current or future ( at least before the end of 2021 ) interest in
Hobbyist licenses for any version of OpenVMS from 5.0 through 8.4 for VAX ( only up to
7.3) or Alpha and Itanium, then register now.? HPE is looking to find out how many are
interested in Hobbyist offerings and even though the new license will be good through
2021, I don't expect them to be generating them past the end of 2020 and maybe
sooner.
Register for Hobbyist PAKs at one of the following (I suggest the HPE address
first):
https://www.hpe.com/h41268/live/index_e.aspx?qid=24548
http://plato.ccsscorp.com/hobbyist_registration.php
? ? Note the underscore between hobbyist and registration in hobbyist_registration.
One Hobbyist user reports this:
? ? I?ve just received an update from the OpenVMS Customer lab:
? ? Here?s the message from the OpenVMS team.? The idea was that hobbyists would
visit the site and renew their licenses, and in response, we would provide the final set
of licenses,
? ? explaining the scenario:
? ? =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
? ? ?? As we approach the end of the HPE OpenVMS V8.4 standard support period, HPE
? ? ???plans to conclude the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program.
? ? ?? The HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses we are issuing in 2020 will be the last
set.
? ? ???Subsequently, HPE will not issue new HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. Attached
? ? ???is the final set of the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses. These final licenses
? ? ???are valid through December 31st, 2021. We hope that this additional validity
? ? ???period will enable users to plan for the future.
? ? ?? Users who wish to avail of HPE OpenVMS long term licenses are encouraged to
? ? ???purchase permanent licenses at standard prices. You may contact [Fellman,
Jon]
? ? ???<jon.fellman at hpe.com <mailto:jon.fellman at hpe.com>
<mailto:jon.fellman at hpe.com <mailto:jon.fellman at hpe.com>>> for the
same.
? ? =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
? ? Cheers, Wiz!!
John H. Reinhardt
*From:*owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
[mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:owner-hecnet at Update.UU.SE>] *On
Behalf Of *David Moylan
*Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 4:14 PM
*To:* hecnet at Update.UU.SE <mailto:hecnet at Update.UU.SE>
*Subject:* [HECnet] HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program is closing
Hi all,
Just received the e-mail below. I?ve hunted around all the various Hobbyist locations
and licensing pages and can?t find any additional information.
I?ve already replied back to ask what the impact of Hobbyist renewal licensing will
be. I have no further information at this stage.
Have others received this as well? Does anyone have any further knowledge on this?
I can see a few people have forwarded/posted the same message on comp.os.vms.
Cheers, Wiz!!
*From:*OpenVMS Customer Lab [mailto:openvmscustomerlab at hpe.com
<mailto:openvmscustomerlab at hpe.com>]
*Sent:* Saturday, 7 March 2020 3:13 PM
*Cc:* OpenVMS Customer Lab
*Subject:* OpenVMS Hobbyist Notification
Dear HPE OpenVMS hobbyist,
This is to inform you that HPE is concluding the HPE OpenVMS Hobbyist license program
in alignment with the HPE OpenVMS support roadmap.
If you wish to understand more details, please reach out to us at the earliest
through the usual license renewal webpage.
Thank you.
HPE OpenVMS team
--
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell
--
John H. Reinhardt
9 Mar
9 Mar
2 p.m.
On Sun, Mar 08, 2020 at 03:21:27PM -0500, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote:
IIRC there is about a two week wait from the time you
get your member
number on Eisner until the number is active in the HPE database for the
Hobbyist license so you may have to wait a bit.
With one of my previous renewal requests, I made a typo and entered the
wrong DECUS number. They still sent hobbyist license packs to me.
--
Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.Lassie.xyz
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX
What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works!
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.
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