23 Jul
2007
23 Jul
'07
8:05 p.m.
I'm getting a little closer ..
I have the power adapter now and the correct cabling. This device
communicates over the serial port, but I have no idea how to talk to it,
and I haven't even been able to get it to transmit noise on the serial
port to the host PC. (I've tried a variety of bps rates.)
Does anybody have IBM book SA23-2646-01 "Hardware Technical Reference:
Options and Devices" ? The protocol for speaking to this thing might be
in there ...
If anybody else has one connected to a PC RT or an old AIX box, it would
be possible to reverse engineer the protocol by tapping the serial cable
and watching what comes across.
It's a neat looking piece of hardware - 32 buttons, each having a
controllable indicator light. But I'm getting grumpy because I have no
idea how to feed it. :-(
Thanks in advance,
Mike
24 Jul
24 Jul
12:23 a.m.
On Jul 23, 2007, at 11:05 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote:
I'm getting a little closer ..
I have the power adapter now and the correct cabling. This device
communicates over the serial port, but I have no idea how to talk
to it, and I haven't even been able to get it to transmit noise on
the serial port to the host PC. (I've tried a variety of bps rates.)
Does anybody have IBM book SA23-2646-01 "Hardware Technical
Reference: Options and Devices" ? The protocol for speaking to
this thing might be in there ...
If anybody else has one connected to a PC RT or an old AIX box, it
would be possible to reverse engineer the protocol by tapping the
serial cable and watching what comes across.
It's a neat looking piece of hardware - 32 buttons, each having a
controllable indicator light. But I'm getting grumpy because I
have no idea how to feed it. :-(
I have a few of those. Really, really neat little boxes. I've
been similarly unable to find out anything about them. :-(
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
12:53 a.m.
On 7/24/07, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On Jul 23, 2007, at 11:05 PM, Michael B. Brutman
wrote:
I have an HP A4363A button box and a A4362A dial box. I wonder if
they are similar at all to the IBM versions. The button box has 32
buttons with indicators arranged as 6 rows of 4,6,6,6,6,4 buttons.
The A4363A button box needs +5V and +/- 12V and talks 9600,N,8,1. On
reset all keys should be set to autosend. The reset command from host
to device is 0x20 and the device should respond with 0x20 for success
or 0x21 for failure. Data values 0xC0 to 0xDF from the device are key
down, 0xE0 to 0xFF are key up. Maybe that is useful, or maybe
completely useless info for the IBM device.
-Glen
I'm getting a little closer ..
I have the power adapter now and the correct cabling. This device
communicates over the serial port, but I have no idea how to talk
to it, and I haven't even been able to get it to transmit noise on
the serial port to the host PC. (I've tried a variety of bps rates.)
It's a neat looking piece of hardware - 32 buttons, each having a
controllable indicator light. But I'm getting grumpy because I
have no idea how to feed it. :-(
I have a few of those. Really, really neat little boxes. I've
been similarly unable to find out anything about them. :-(
-Dave
11:58 a.m.
On Jul 24, 2007, at 3:53 AM, Glen Slick wrote:
I have an HP A4363A button box and a A4362A dial box. I wonder if
they are similar at all to the IBM versions. The button box has 32
buttons with indicators arranged as 6 rows of 4,6,6,6,6,4 buttons.
The A4363A button box needs +5V and +/- 12V and talks 9600,N,8,1. On
reset all keys should be set to autosend. The reset command from host
to device is 0x20 and the device should respond with 0x20 for success
or 0x21 for failure. Data values 0xC0 to 0xDF from the device are key
down, 0xE0 to 0xFF are key up. Maybe that is useful, or maybe
completely useless info for the IBM device.
Hmmmm that sounds useful. I will see about digging up one of my
IBM units to see if it's compatible. Thanks!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
I'm getting a little closer ..
I have the power adapter now and the correct cabling. This device
communicates over the serial port, but I have no idea how to talk
to it, and I haven't even been able to get it to transmit noise on
the serial port to the host PC. (I've tried a variety of bps
rates.)
It's a neat looking piece of hardware - 32 buttons, each having a
controllable indicator light. But I'm getting grumpy because I
have no idea how to feed it. :-(
I have a few of those. Really, really neat little boxes. I've
been similarly unable to find out anything about them. :-(
9:11 p.m.
I think I found the programming specs:
http://codeninja.de/lpfk/
According to that page, it speaks 9600 N81 and the input and output
sequences are trivial.
I have two samples .. both are behaving the same way, which is to me
'non-functional'. I thought I had a cabling goof so I started with the
multi-meter and started tracing things.
To make a long story short, I think the cabling is fine, and the units
are just goofy. (Although they are both goofy in the same way, so I
suspect something else is wrong.) I can't get any output from the units
- not even noise.
Sridhar - what position is the switch on the backside supposed to be? I
think it is supposed to be set to the 'lightening bolt', and that the
other symbol means loopback.
Is yours connected via a serial style cable, or the round DIN connector
to a graphics input feature adapter? If it is serial, would you mind
connecting it to a PC comm port, setting the port to 9600 N81 (no flow
control), and seeing if you can get some output when a key is pressed?
Glen - the HP button box you describe is amazingly similar, but the case
is a bit different. Those buttons don't look like they have lights ...
the IBM version does, and the lights are controllable from the host
machine.
Mike
8:51 p.m.
On 7/24/07, Michael B. Brutman <mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com> wrote:
I think I found the programming specs:
http://codeninja.de/lpfk/
Glen - the HP button box you describe is amazingly similar, but the case
is a bit different. Those buttons don't look like they have lights ...
the IBM version does, and the lights are controllable from the host
machine.
Mike, the HP A4363A button box does have LED indicators in each button
and does have the same button layout as IBM button box shown in the
webpage you referenced.
It also does have an LEDs on command, which is 0x75 followed by 4
button mask bytes.
The other commands for the HP A4363A button box are:
Reset - 0x20
Setype - 0x71 followed by 4 button mask bytes. A clear mask bit means
report press only, a set mask bit means report press & release.
Autosend - 0x73 followed by 4 button mask bytes. A clear mask bit
means that button is ignored.
According to the webpage you referenced the IBM button box mask bytes
are two hex characters per byte, while from the HP documentation it
appears the mask bytes are raw binary byte values.
-Glen
9:27 p.m.
On 7/24/07, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
Mike, the HP A4363A button box does have LED
indicators in each button
and does have the same button layout as IBM button box shown in the
webpage you referenced...
Since I find odd input devices fascinating, I've been following this
thread even though I don't happen to own anything like it (but I'll
certainly be keeping an eye out for things like this in the future).
One question I do have is how one would typically use a light-up
matrix keyboard on a 3D workstation. I know how dialboxes are used,
but how would keyboards like this be used?
Thanks for clearing up the mystery,
-ethan
10:04 p.m.
On 7/24/07, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
Since I find odd input devices fascinating, I've
been following this
thread even though I don't happen to own anything like it (but I'll
certainly be keeping an eye out for things like this in the future).
One question I do have is how one would typically use a light-up
matrix keyboard on a 3D workstation. I know how dialboxes are used,
but how would keyboards like this be used?
Thanks for clearing up the mystery,
-ethan
I have never used the HP button and dial boxes. I picked them up at
Boeing Surplus a couple of years back just because they looked cool
and I thought I might find something interesting to do with them some
day as they are simple serial interface devices.
I imagine the button box might be used to select different functions
or modes in some CAD software running on an HP-UX workstation. Seems
like CAD software would likely have large tool palettes that might be
easier or quicker to select using a button box than a mouse or normal
keyboard.
I got a manual for the button box, but not the dial box. It came with
a DDS tape labeled: Dial & Button Box Driver for A4362A & A4363A P/N
A4362-10001 REV A.01.00 HP 9000 SERIES 700 HP-UX.
10:41 p.m.
Michael B. Brutman wrote:
Sridhar - what position is the switch on the backside
supposed to be? I
think it is supposed to be set to the 'lightening bolt', and that the
other symbol means loopback.
I'll check when I get to work tomorrow.
Is yours connected via a serial style cable, or the
round DIN connector
to a graphics input feature adapter? If it is serial, would you mind
connecting it to a PC comm port, setting the port to 9600 N81 (no flow
control), and seeing if you can get some output when a key is pressed?
Mine is connected via a miniDIN cable to a graphics input adapter. I
don't have a cable to hook it to a regular serial port at the moment,
but I'll see what I can bodge up.
Peace... Sridhar
30 Jul
30 Jul
7:02 p.m.
I'm still trying to make this thing talk ...
Here's the quick recap. It is driven by a derivative of an Intel
MCS-51. It is supposed to speak 9600 N81 over a serial port to a PC.
The protocol is supposed to be simple. But I haven't been able to make
it talk.
I borrowed a friend's multi-meter that does frequency counting, hoping
to use it as a poor man's oscilloscope. I verified it with the PC
serial port - sending characters definitely makes it wiggle.
Connected to the device (which is powered by an external adapter), it
shows +10VDC on its pin 2 (which is 'receive' from the PC perspective),
but no wiggling with the frequency counter. This confirms what I saw
with my meter - a straight 10VDC signal coming out. The voltage level
is fine for serial, but it is not a data stream if it is continuous.
Opening the device up shows the MCS 51 feeds a Maxim chip, which is used
to get the TTL voltages up to proper RS232 voltages. The input and
output to the Maxim chip are behaving the same way - a continuous
voltage. Kind of like the MCS 51 is fried or stuck in a loop waiting
for initialization. (And of course, I don't know what it expects.)
The unit has a small switch on the backside that is either in a 'normal'
or 'loopback' state. It appears to function in loopback - you can press
a button and the light for the button turns on, turning off any other
previously lit button. But nothing comes out of the serial port in that
state. In normal state it does absolutely nothing, and has the steady
voltage on the output pin.
Is it possible thing thing is waiting for the serial port to set one of
the other pins for flow control? Any other ideas? (I need an
oscilloscope ...)
Regards,
Mike
8:39 p.m.
From: "Michael B. Brutman"
<mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com>
I'm still trying to make this thing talk ...
Here's the quick recap. It is driven by a derivative of an Intel MCS-51.
It is supposed to speak 9600 N81 over a serial port to a PC. The protocol
is supposed to be simple. But I haven't been able to make it talk.
I borrowed a friend's multi-meter that does frequency counting, hoping to
use it as a poor man's oscilloscope. I verified it with the PC serial port
- sending characters definitely makes it wiggle.
Connected to the device (which is powered by an external adapter), it shows
+10VDC on its pin 2 (which is 'receive' from the PC perspective), but no
wiggling with the frequency counter. This confirms what I saw with my
meter - a straight 10VDC signal coming out. The voltage level is fine for
serial, but it is not a data stream if it is continuous.
Opening the device up shows the MCS 51 feeds a Maxim chip, which is used to
get the TTL voltages up to proper RS232 voltages. The input and output to
the Maxim chip are behaving the same way - a continuous voltage. Kind of
like the MCS 51 is fried or stuck in a loop waiting for initialization.
(And of course, I don't know what it expects.)
The unit has a small switch on the backside that is either in a 'normal' or
'loopback' state. It appears to function in loopback - you can press a
button and the light for the button turns on, turning off any other
previously lit button. But nothing comes out of the serial port in that
state. In normal state it does absolutely nothing, and has the steady
voltage on the output pin.
Is it possible thing thing is waiting for the serial port to set one of the
other pins for flow control? Any other ideas? (I need an oscilloscope
...)
Regards,
Mike
Hi
First try removing the Maxim chip. It may be shorted. Next,
send a copy of the code you are using to control and what
frequncy the processor is running at. If the crystal isn't 12 MHz
( as I recall ) the baud rate may be differnt.
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
http://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_mig…
9:56 p.m.
dwight elvey wrote:
Hi
First try removing the Maxim chip. It may be shorted. Next,
send a copy of the code you are using to control and what
frequncy the processor is running at. If the crystal isn't 12 MHz
( as I recall ) the baud rate may be differnt.
Dwight
I've checked the output from the MCS-51 by putting a probe on the leg
and noticed the same thing. I think the Maxim is dutifully raising the
voltage to 10VDC from 5VDC, as it should.
I don't have control over the code - it's probably burned into this
variant of the MCS-51. Even if I have the bps rate wrong, I should
still some garbage flowing across serial interface.
Mike
9:05 p.m.
From: "Michael B. Brutman"
<mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com>
dwight elvey wrote:
Hi
I've seen the maxim parts blown such that the input was tied and
the level converter was still working.
In any case, you are most likely right about it needing some type
of hand shake. You might try something simple like control Q.
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
Need a brain boost? Recharge with a stimulating game. Play now!?
http://club.live.com/home.aspx?icid=club_hotmailtextlink1
Hi
First try removing the Maxim chip. It may be shorted. Next,
send a copy of the code you are using to control and what
frequncy the processor is running at. If the crystal isn't 12 MHz
( as I recall ) the baud rate may be differnt.
Dwight
I've checked the output from the MCS-51 by putting a probe on the leg and
noticed the same thing. I think the Maxim is dutifully raising the voltage
to 10VDC from 5VDC, as it should.
I don't have control over the code - it's probably burned into this variant
of the MCS-51. Even if I have the bps rate wrong, I should still some
garbage flowing across serial interface.
1 Aug
1 Aug
5:08 p.m.
Hi,
I don't have control over the code - it's
probably burned
into this variant of the MCS-51....
That's pretty much a given, the 8051 family came with internal ROM (the 8031
family were pretty much 8051s without the internal ROM).
....Even if I have the bps rate wrong, I should still
some
garbage flowing across serial interface.
I wouldn't make that assumption so quickly....perhaps you have to send some
sort of initialisation string to the unit before it'll send any output?
TTFN - Pete.
30 Jul
30 Jul
10:34 p.m.
"Michael B. Brutman" wrote:
Is it possible thing thing is waiting for the serial
port to set one of
the other pins for flow control? Any other ideas? (I need an
oscilloscope ...)
Regarding flow control, you might trace the input of other receivers on
the maxim chip to see if they go back to the serial cable/connector. If so,
send them to their opposite state (as observed by watching the output of the
receiver). It would 'ordinarily' seem unnecessary for hardware flow control
in such a device so it may be unlikely to be the solution, but you never
know what IBM might have gotten up to.
24 Jul
24 Jul
1:15 a.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
On Jul 23, 2007, at 11:05 PM, Michael B. Brutman
wrote:
I use one on a daily basis at work.
What do you want to know?
Peace... Sridhar
I'm getting a little closer ..
I have the power adapter now and the correct cabling. This device
communicates over the serial port, but I have no idea how to talk to
it, and I haven't even been able to get it to transmit noise on the
serial port to the host PC. (I've tried a variety of bps rates.)
Does anybody have IBM book SA23-2646-01 "Hardware Technical Reference:
Options and Devices" ? The protocol for speaking to this thing might
be in there ...
If anybody else has one connected to a PC RT or an old AIX box, it
would be possible to reverse engineer the protocol by tapping the
serial cable and watching what comes across.
It's a neat looking piece of hardware - 32 buttons, each having a
controllable indicator light. But I'm getting grumpy because I have
no idea how to feed it. :-(
I have a few of those. Really, really neat little boxes. I've been
similarly unable to find out anything about them. :-(
11:57 a.m.
On Jul 24, 2007, at 4:15 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
I use one on a daily basis at work.
What do you want to know?
Protocol specs! :-)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
I'm getting a little closer ..
I have the power adapter now and the correct cabling. This
device communicates over the serial port, but I have no idea how
to talk to it, and I haven't even been able to get it to transmit
noise on the serial port to the host PC. (I've tried a variety
of bps rates.)
Does anybody have IBM book SA23-2646-01 "Hardware Technical
Reference: Options and Devices" ? The protocol for speaking to
this thing might be in there ...
If anybody else has one connected to a PC RT or an old AIX box,
it would be possible to reverse engineer the protocol by tapping
the serial cable and watching what comes across.
It's a neat looking piece of hardware - 32 buttons, each having a
controllable indicator light. But I'm getting grumpy because I
have no idea how to feed it. :-(
I have a few of those. Really, really neat
little boxes. I've
been similarly unable to find out anything about them. :-(
1:43 p.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
I use one on a daily basis at work.
What do you want to know?
Protocol specs! :-)
I may or may not be able to get protocol specs. I'll have to look.
What I know I can get is AIX API docs for it.
Peace... Sridhar
>>> I have the power adapter now and the
correct cabling. This device
>>> communicates over the serial port, but I have no idea how to talk to
>>> it, and I haven't even been able to get it to transmit noise on the
>>> serial port to the host PC. (I've tried a variety of bps rates.)
>>>
>>> Does anybody have IBM book SA23-2646-01 "Hardware Technical
>>> Reference: Options and Devices" ? The protocol for speaking to this
>>> thing might be in there ...
I'm pretty sure I can get that book.
If anybody
else has one connected to a PC RT or an old AIX box, it
would be possible to reverse engineer the protocol by tapping the
serial cable and watching what comes across.
It's a neat looking piece of hardware - 32 buttons, each having a
controllable indicator light. But I'm getting grumpy because I have
no idea how to feed it. :-(
I have a few of those. Really, really neat little
boxes. I've
been similarly unable to find out anything about them. :-( 
2:40 p.m.
On 24 Jul 2007 at 16:43, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
I may or may not be able to get protocol specs.
I'll have to look.
What I know I can get is AIX API docs for it.
Might there be something on the API buried here?
http://cantelli.mathematik.hu-
berlin.de/doc_link/en_US/a_doc_lib/aixgen/wbinfnav/aixprggdsbooks.htm
Cheers,
Chuck
6129
days inactive
6138
days old
18 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
cclist＠sydex.com -
classiccmp＠memory-alpha.org.uk -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
mbbrutman-cctalk＠brutman.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
ploopster＠gmail.com