31 May
2000
31 May
'00
2:14 a.m.
Archiving data has as many definitions as there are people interested in it.
At work we talk about archiving x-ray images on film for 7 years for adults
and 25 years for children. Physical loss of the data is more of a problem
than deterioration of the media. I have data on 12" optical packs that are
5 years old and there are conversion/data retrieval services that will
retrieve my data but the cost is prohibitive. If I tell the powers in
charge (PIC) that it will cost them $5 to retrieve an image that was created
for $1 they think I am crazy. However if there is a lawyer making the
request and the risk is $10,000,000 then the PIC are happy to pay.
Currently we may have for a single patient's cardiac angiography study about
1,000 35mm images, about 1 GB. The system now uses CDROM-RW and puts the
images all on 1 CD using JPEG compression, they swear it will last 25 years.
I guess we will wait and see.
The big issue for magnetic media archival is that it is an ongoing process
with very few retrievals ever actually requested. If every 5 years I need
to refresh my magnetic data then I have a reoccurring cost. This seems to
be what many DP operations are planning. If I ask for lots of dollars for
saving old data most organizations will laugh. I'll bet when reality or a
lawsuit hits they will hope to beg forgiveness for loosing the data.
Most media storage lifetimes are extrapolated from accelerated testing and
assume optimal humidity and temperature. If you want proven lifetimes then
there are only several known/proven methods. I know the government and the
Mormons, two separate entities, are storing data etched on iridium
substrates in human readable form. They talk about lifetimes of 1,000's of
years. Other examples are stone tablets, photographic film, and paper. I
think that we can eliminate stone tablets for storing magnetic data. Paper
seems to be cumbersome and is fairly fragile. That leaves photographic
methods. Photographic images from the Civil War still exist. Source code or
HEX dumps on photographic media may be the best way.
Maybe photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other
solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to
my patent attorney and file.
I've started babbling.
Mike
31 May
31 May
4:17 a.m.
Maybe photographic film quality "paper tape"
is the answer. The other
solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to
my patent attorney and file.
Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human
readable (well sorta ;)).
Allison
4:34 a.m.
On Wed, 31 May 2000 allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote:
Everytime this talk of using punched mylar cards to archive data comes up
I have to laugh. First of all, do we all realize how many cards it would
take to store even one floppy disk? And then, where are all these cards
going to go? Where does one store millions of punched cards? Who's going
to pay for this?
The trick is to apply the solution that makes most sense for today and
keep looking for new mediums to transfer the archive to. The best medium
I see now is redudndant living systems, and what I mean by that is having
the archives stored on a hard drive somewhere (connected to the internet),
preferably with RAID, and have mirrors of that site in multiple places.
This will allow for universal and immediate access. As systems die, the
archive is simply moved on to the next host.
Of course the archives could also be dumped to CD ROM every N years.
Then, when something comes along to imrpove on CD technology, we move to
that.
Anyway, it's a matter of feasibility and practicality. Suggesting
solutions like punched cards makes no sense when you're dealing with
gigabytes of data.
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
Coming soon: VCF 4.0!
VCF East: Planning in Progress
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
Maybe
photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other
solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to
my patent attorney and file.
Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human
readable (well sorta ;)).
6:46 a.m.
Mylar punched
paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human
readable (well sorta ;)).
Everytime this talk of using punched mylar cards to archive data comes up
I have to laugh. First of all, do we all realize how many cards it would take to store even one floppy disk? And then, where
are all these cards
going to go? Where does one store millions of punched cards? Who's going
to pay for this?
First, whose twisting your arm? It was a thought, and only that!
keep looking for new mediums to transfer the archive
to. The best medium
I see now is redudndant living systems, and what I mean by that is having
I already do that.
Of course the archives could also be dumped to CD ROM
every N years.
Then, when something comes along to imrpove on CD technology, we move to
that.
Just like mag tape only maybe less often.
Anyway, it's a matter of feasibility and
practicality. Suggesting
solutions like punched cards makes no sense when you're dealing with
gigabytes of data.
Again reread tape is not cards! the information density of tape FYI is
higher than cards and laks the "ordering" problem if dropped. Also no
rule says 10 punches per linear inch is required, you could go 16 wide
and 20 per inch upping the denity fourfold. Or better yet optically
print the image (density limits already mentiond are 100-1000x).
Dream a bit, maybe a cheap idea will emerge.
Allison
6:13 a.m.
On Wed, 31 May 2000 allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote:
I'm just commenting on the impracticality of it all.
take to store
even one floppy disk? And then, where are all these cards
going to go? Where does one store millions of punched cards? Who's going
to pay for this?
First, whose twisting your arm? It was a thought, and only that! Again reread tape is not cards! the information
density of tape FYI is
higher than cards and laks the "ordering" problem if dropped. Also no
rule says 10 punches per linear inch is required, you could go 16 wide
and 20 per inch upping the denity fourfold. Or better yet optically
print the image (density limits already mentiond are 100-1000x).
Still impractical.
Dream a bit, maybe a cheap idea will emerge.
I'm always dreaming, baby!
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
Coming soon: VCF 4.0!
VCF East: Planning in Progress
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
7:09 a.m.
The trick is to apply the solution that makes most
sense for today and
keep looking for new mediums to transfer the archive to. The best medium
I see now is redudndant living systems, and what I mean by that is having
the archives stored on a hard drive somewhere (connected to the internet),
preferably with RAID, and have mirrors of that site in multiple places.
This will allow for universal and immediate access. As systems die, the
archive is simply moved on to the next host.
Its nice to see someone sees the big picture here. Safety in numbers,
sort of. In a few years, a RAID capable of holding every bit (literally)
of classic computer software will be peanuts. As new computers are deemed
"classic" and more software will need archiving, the available RAIDs will
grow to accomodate, maybe even faster than the stuff that needs storing.
"NO WAY! There's too much out there!" you say. Well, my response is that
a terabyte is a lot of stuff. Ten terabytes is even more stuff. Do I hear
one hundred, or even the "p" word? I think you would run out of willpower
to keep reading tapes before the RAIDs get full.
Moving and syncing the archives properly is no big deal either - its a
well documented, well known procedure, and it happens all the time, quite
transparently. Every one on this list has gone thru the process - how many
people noticed?
The choice of medium is really unimportant, and as pointed out, kind of
silly when one deals in even a few megabytes (how much mylar tape is that
again?). Embrace this new technology - it really does work well. The old
technology just doesn't cut the mustard anymore.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
6:59 a.m.
On Wed, 31 May 2000, William Donzelli wrote:
The choice of medium is really unimportant, and as
pointed out, kind of
silly when one deals in even a few megabytes (how much mylar tape is that
again?). Embrace this new technology - it really does work well. The old
technology just doesn't cut the mustard anymore.
On the other hand, what happens when/if civilization falls into another
dark period (world war, nuclear holocaust, whatever-doomsday-scenario)?
Longevity of the medium becomes an issue if you have a bleak outlook for
our future. You also have to count on future generations having the same
devotion that our current little group does with regards to archiving old
software.
I'm an optimistic pessismist (in other words, a realist). I don't think
we can always count on future generations to carry on the tradition and
continue moving the archives from one RAID network to the next in
perpetuity. And who knows, maybe one day the electricity will run out.
Hence, the need for a longterm physical solution. One that will require
no maintenance from people. Something that can sit in a cave undiscovered
for millenia to be uncovered at some future date and leave the future
discoverers in awe of our primitive technology.
If someone wants to buy and then punch millions of feet of mylar punch
tape with the archive that we will eventually create, then find an out of
the way cave somewhere to hide it all in, be my guest.
My prefered course of action is to keep it digital until some long lasting
(near infinity), incredibly high density (megabytes/gigabytes per square
inch) magnetic medium can be invented.
Shit, this would be so much easier if the whole planet just got sucked
into a black hole. Then it wouldn't matter anymore ;)
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
Coming soon: VCF 4.0!
VCF East: Planning in Progress
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
8:42 a.m.
On the other hand, what happens when/if civilization
falls into another
dark period (world war, nuclear holocaust, whatever-doomsday-scenario)?
Spread out the data - world wide. I've been in computing centers (well,
one) that was designed for a nuclear holocaust. If a war comes, I
think that at least one mirror out in Itchybutt, North Dakoda or
wherever, will survive. It may be isolated, and may be down for some
time, but it will be there.
Of course, reading old TRS-80 files will be the least of your concerns.
Longevity of the medium becomes an issue if you have a
bleak outlook for
our future. You also have to count on future generations having the same
devotion that our current little group does with regards to archiving old
software.
There will be. Once the museum folk start to seriously study something
like old computers, they never let go. Never. Just try to think of
something, anything, that was studied in a historical context once, but
not anymore. And, as stuff gets older, the studies get more serious. The
good thing is that the museum folk _have_ started seriously looking into
old computers. The ball, as they say, is rolling...
I'm an optimistic pessismist (in other words, a
realist). I don't think
we can always count on future generations to carry on the tradition and
continue moving the archives from one RAID network to the next in
perpetuity.
See the above paragraph. Museum folk are very conservative, very careful,
and look far into the future. For example, a friend on the Pampanito
(WW2 submarine on display in the Bay Area) is very confident that the
work they are doing on the boat will be appreciated in 1000 years.
And who knows, maybe one day the electricity will run
out.
Electricity is of no importance. The information content is. Electricity
may be "obsolete" some day, if superconductors deliver what they promise,
but historical information never goes obsolete. The next medium does not
matter.
Hence, the need for a longterm physical solution. One
that will require
no maintenance from people. Something that can sit in a cave undiscovered
for millenia to be uncovered at some future date and leave the future
discoverers in awe of our primitive technology.
There is nothing wrong with taking "snapshots" of the archives for long
term storage. None at all. But it does have to be practical, and should
not be viewed as the standard to which all such snapshots are made. In
other words, even the medium the snapshots are taken in should evolve,
and use the latest-greatest thing.
My prefered course of action is to keep it digital
until some long lasting
(near infinity), incredibly high density (megabytes/gigabytes per square
inch) magnetic medium can be invented.
That sounds great. I would wager that today's high-rel hard disks are
already in the "long lasting incredibly high density (megabytes/gigabytes
per square inch)" category.
William Donzelli
aw288(a)osfn.org
10:31 a.m.
Sellam wrote:
On the other hand, what happens when/if civilization
falls into another
dark period (world war, nuclear holocaust, whatever-doomsday-scenario)?
Longevity of the medium becomes an issue if you have a bleak outlook for
our future.
Nah, they'll be more interested in our grocery shopping lists. :-)
Despite my concern for preserving computer history, I'm not trying to
prepare anything to survive a nuclear holocaust. I don't think there's
much point. IMHO, preserving the stuff is useful primarily if there
*isn't* some major doomsday event.
10:06 a.m.
On 31 May 2000, Eric Smith wrote:
Sellam wrote:
Don't you want to know if Atlantis really existed, and if so, what their
scientists knew? I sure as hell do. I'd hate to think all of our
incredible knowledge could be lost to future civilizations because we
didn't think to take all the steps necessary to ensure survival of our
history.
If we aren't here to make sure our often amazing and sometimes abominable
civilation lives on despite the worst of scenarios, then what are we here
for?
Granted this all sounds very noble and lofty, but it is where I'm coming
from.
Sellam International Man of Intrigue and Danger
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for a six in a pile of nines...
Coming soon: VCF 4.0!
VCF East: Planning in Progress
See http://www.vintage.org for details!
On the other hand, what happens when/if
civilization falls into another
dark period (world war, nuclear holocaust, whatever-doomsday-scenario)?
Longevity of the medium becomes an issue if you have a bleak outlook for
our future.
Nah, they'll be more interested in our grocery shopping lists. :-)
Despite my concern for preserving computer history, I'm not trying to
prepare anything to survive a nuclear holocaust. I don't think there's
much point. IMHO, preserving the stuff is useful primarily if there
*isn't* some major doomsday event. 
8:49 a.m.
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5:44 a.m.
Maybe
photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other
solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to
my patent attorney and file.
Mylar punched paper tape has a VERY long lifetime and is even human
readable (well sorta ;)). 
6:10 a.m.
On Wed, 31 May 2000, McFadden, Mike wrote:
Archiving data has as many definitions as there are
people interested in it.
At work we talk about archiving x-ray images on film for 7 years for adults
and 25 years for children. Physical loss of the data is more of a problem
than deterioration of the media. I have data on 12" optical packs that are
5 years old and there are conversion/data retrieval services that will
retrieve my data but the cost is prohibitive. If I tell the powers in
charge (PIC) that it will cost them $5 to retrieve an image that was created
for $1 they think I am crazy. However if there is a lawyer making the
request and the risk is $10,000,000 then the PIC are happy to pay.
Currently we may have for a single patient's cardiac angiography study about
1,000 35mm images, about 1 GB. The system now uses CDROM-RW and puts the
images all on 1 CD using JPEG compression, they swear it will last 25 years.
I guess we will wait and see.
The big issue for magnetic media archival is that it is an ongoing process
with very few retrievals ever actually requested. If every 5 years I need
From my experience, the retrievals of 'legacy'
disk images is something
above 'very few'. In about the past six years I
have provided disks
on about 385 individual orders, usually for multiple disks. Virtually
all of this from TeleDisk images stored on a hard disk.
- don
to refresh my magnetic data then I have a reoccurring
cost. This seems to
be what many DP operations are planning. If I ask for lots of dollars for
saving old data most organizations will laugh. I'll bet when reality or a
lawsuit hits they will hope to beg forgiveness for loosing the data.
Most media storage lifetimes are extrapolated from accelerated testing and
assume optimal humidity and temperature. If you want proven lifetimes then
there are only several known/proven methods. I know the government and the
Mormons, two separate entities, are storing data etched on iridium
substrates in human readable form. They talk about lifetimes of 1,000's of
years. Other examples are stone tablets, photographic film, and paper. I
think that we can eliminate stone tablets for storing magnetic data. Paper
seems to be cumbersome and is fairly fragile. That leaves photographic
methods. Photographic images from the Civil War still exist. Source code or
HEX dumps on photographic media may be the best way.
Maybe photographic film quality "paper tape" is the answer. The other
solution may be photographic film floppy disks. I'd better get right off to
my patent attorney and file.
I've started babbling.
Mike
8741
days inactive
8741
days old
12 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
allisonp＠world.std.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
aw288＠osfn.org -
donm＠cts.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
mikeford＠socal.rr.com -
mmcfadden＠cmh.edu