25 May
2013
25 May
'13
9:38 p.m.
List:
I'm working with some old media that has Swedish text on it. (8" SS FM
disks with 4 sectors of 1024 bytes per track--no OS or file structure on
it).
I can probably figure out the structural details that I need with the
exception of modern Unicode or UTF-8 characters corresponding to what's
on the disk.
Here's a binary dump sample of such a record (LIST format):
?000500 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00-00 00 00 00 00 3C 44
65 <De
000510 74 20 76 61 72 20 66 FE-6F 72 62 61 6E 6E 65 6C t var f?orbannel
000520 73 65 6E 3E 0A 00 00 00-3C 73 6F 6D 20 64 72 65 sen>? <som dre
000530 76 20 6F 73 73 20 62 6F-72 74 20 66 72 FA 61 6E v oss bort fr?an
000540 20 53 61 6D 73 6F 6E 2E-3E 0A 00 00 00 00 00 00 Samson.>?
Note the characters FA and FE in this sample.
Can anyone help with this thing?
--Chuck
25 May
25 May
10:51 p.m.
Here's a binary dump sample of such a record (LIST
format):
FE 6F = ?
FA 61 = ?
Looks like FA and FE are prefixes that indicate an accent to put on
the next character.
Camiel.
?000500 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00-00 00 00 00 00
3C 44 65 <De
000510 74 20 76 61 72 20 66 FE-6F 72 62 61 6E 6E 65 6C t var f?orbannel
000520 73 65 6E 3E 0A 00 00 00-3C 73 6F 6D 20 64 72 65 sen>? <som dre
000530 76 20 6F 73 73 20 62 6F-72 74 20 66 72 FA 61 6E v oss bort fr?an
000540 20 53 61 6D 73 6F 6E 2E-3E 0A 00 00 00 00 00 00 Samson.>?
Note the characters FA and FE in this sample.
26 May
26 May
12:11 a.m.
On 05/25/2013 10:51 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote:
FE 6F = ?
FA 61 = ?
Looks like FA and FE are prefixes that indicate an accent to put on
the next character.
Thanks, that makes sense. For some reason, I was thinking that the Fx
codes were characters, not modifiers. I'll have to poke through the
rest of this thing and see if I can find anything that doesn't make sense.
Now, all I have to do is figure out the file structure...
Thanks again,
Chuck
12:10 p.m.
On May 26, 2013, at 12:11 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Thanks, that makes sense. For some reason, I was
thinking that the Fx codes were characters, not modifiers.
They are both. They are "non-spacing" or "combining" glyphs. FE is a
dieresis (?), FA is the ring.
ok
bear.
--
until further notice
6:42 a.m.
On 26 May 2013 06:51, Camiel Vanderhoeven <iamcamiel at gmail.com> wrote:
fr?an
That should be fr?n. (a-ring: ?,
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/00e5/index.htm)
--
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MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
9:31 a.m.
On 05/26/2013 06:42 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
On 26 May 2013 06:51, Camiel Vanderhoeven
<iamcamiel at gmail.com> wrote:
Does anyone know of a standard that specifies this (e.g. FE+character)
encoding?
--Chuck
fr?an
That should be fr?n. (a-ring: ?,
http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/00e5/index.htm) 
10:06 a.m.
l?r 2013-05-25 klockan 21:38 -0700 skrev Chuck Guzis:
List:
I'm working with some old media that has Swedish text on it. (8" SS FM
disks with 4 sectors of 1024 bytes per track--no OS or file structure on
it).
I can probably figure out the structural details that I need with the
exception of modern Unicode or UTF-8 characters corresponding to what's
on the disk.
Here's a binary dump sample of such a record (LIST format):
It could be FE=diaresis and FA = ring as an accent.
A common swedish 7 bit encoding used the '{}' reservation for thoose
characters in our alphabet that english doesn't have.
?000500 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00-00 00 00 00 00
3C 44 65 <De
000510 74 20 76 61 72 20 66 FE-6F 72 62 61 6E 6E 65 6C t var f?orbannel
000520 73 65 6E 3E 0A 00 00 00-3C 73 6F 6D 20 64 72 65 sen>? <som dre
000530 76 20 6F 73 73 20 62 6F-72 74 20 66 72 FA 61 6E v oss bort fr?an
000540 20 53 61 6D 73 6F 6E 2E-3E 0A 00 00 00 00 00 00 Samson.>?
Note the characters FA and FE in this sample. From what system does the disks come ?
11:04 a.m.
On 05/26/2013 10:06 AM, stefan skoglund(agj) wrote:
A common swedish 7 bit encoding used the '{}'
reservation for thoose
characters in our alphabet that english doesn't have.
I am familiar with that convention.
>From what system does the disks come ?
Some sort of closed-captioning equipment; the disk itself was created by
Svensk Text AB in Stockholm, probably during the 1980s.
In the USA, we have public standards published by the FCC for such
stuff, which makes decoding of old CC data fairly straightforward. Did
Sweden/Denmark/Norway have any such published convention?
The goal is to get from this stuff to an SCC-format file.
--Chuck
11:54 a.m.
Some sort of closed-captioning equipment; the disk
itself was created by
Svensk Text AB in Stockholm, probably during the 1980s.
I've found the Swedish Teletext chracter set assignement but it simply
re-assignbes a few of the normal ASCII codes, licluding []{}. I can
attempt to give a representation of it, but as it doesn't use any prefix
characters, I don't think it's relevant.
-tony
12:40 p.m.
On 05/26/2013 11:54 AM, Tony Duell wrote:
I've found the Swedish Teletext chracter set
assignement but it simply
re-assignbes a few of the normal ASCII codes, licluding []{}. I can
attempt to give a representation of it, but as it doesn't use any prefix
characters, I don't think it's relevant.
I'm familiar with Teletext and Videotex representations, including
non-spacing characters, having written terminal software for both. My
suspicion is that this is similar to USA "Line 21" closed caption
character sets, which has its own peculiar representations--a mix of 8
and 16-bit characters.
Here's one more involving the character "FB", occurring in only in the
same word several times:
Vi har v<FA>ara egna filist<FB>eer som ger
sig p<FA>a oss om vi inte <FE>ar vaksamma.
Thanks for any assistance.
--Chuck
12:58 p.m.
Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
Here's one more involving the character
"FB", occurring in only in the
same word several times:
Vi har v<FA>ara egna filist<FB>eer som ger
sig p<FA>a oss om vi inte <FE>ar vaksamma.
<FB> is then an acute accent '
Vi har v<FA>ara egna filist<FB>eer som
ger
sig p<FA>a oss om vi inte <FE>ar vaksamma.
Should be:
"Vi har v?ra egna filist?er som ger sig p? oss om vi inte ?r vaksamma."
Cheers!
--Frej
3:58 p.m.
On 05/26/2013 12:58 PM, Frej Drejhammar wrote:
<FB> is then an acute accent '
Many thanks, Frej!
I'd guessed that by using an online Sweidish dictionary that apparently
doesn't care about diacritical marks in searches.
"We have our own Philistines who gives up on us if we are not vigilant."?
Probably not a very good Google-translation...
Are you familiar with this type of encoding?
--Chuck
Vi har v<FA>ara egna filist<FB>eer
som ger
sig p<FA>a oss om vi inte <FE>ar vaksamma.
Should be:
"Vi har v?ra egna filist?er som ger sig p? oss om vi inte ?r vaksamma." 
5:11 p.m.
In article <51A293AD.6040602 at sydex.com>,
Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
Are you familiar with this type of encoding?
Lots of terminals used encodings for foreign character sets. In the
documentation I've read, they simply have a table showing the
encoding. I don't recall reading references to any sort of standard
for the encoding scheme. For instance, HP 2645A had versions that
supported a national character set, including a Swedish one designated
2645S.
See
<http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/terminal/264x/02645-90005_2645_Reference_Oct77.pdf>
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6:02 p.m.
On 05/26/2013 05:11 PM, Richard wrote:
Lots of terminals used encodings for foreign character
sets. In the
documentation I've read, they simply have a table showing the
encoding. I don't recall reading references to any sort of standard
for the encoding scheme. For instance, HP 2645A had versions that
supported a national character set, including a Swedish one designated
2645S.
You miss my question, I think, Richard.
What I really want to know is "What is the corresponding PAL standard
that corresponds to EIA/CEA 608 in the US? Is there an ETSI document
that describes it?
If you're not familiar with EIA/CEA-608 and you have an interest in
terminal protocols, you're missing out on what used to be the most
common protocol (with the largest market) of any single
protocol--closed-caption TV.
--Chuck
7:14 p.m.
New subject: CC (Was: Pre-unicode Swedish character set?
On Sun, 26 May 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote:
If you're not familiar with EIA/CEA-608 and you
have an interest in
terminal protocols, you're missing out on what used to be the most
common protocol (with the largest market) of any single
protocol--closed-caption TV.
Gary Robson's books give the character set, but DON'T include the
screen positioning codes. Big whoop. An ASCII chart, with a very
few special characters.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
8:43 p.m.
New subject: CC (Was: Pre-unicode Swedish character set?
On 05/26/2013 07:14 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote:
It's pretty well detailed in Section 15.119 of FCC Title 47:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2007-title47-vol1/xml/CFR-2007-title47-vol…
As you can see, not much better than the IBM 5150 character set, with
the additional burden of having each "escape" sequence start on a word
boundary.
--Chuck
If you're not familiar with EIA/CEA-608 and
you have an interest in
terminal protocols, you're missing out on what used to be the most
common protocol (with the largest market) of any single
protocol--closed-caption TV.
Gary Robson's books give the character set, but DON'T include the
screen positioning codes. Big whoop. An ASCII chart, with a very
few special character.
7:28 p.m.
In article <51A2B0BC.5030507 at sydex.com>,
Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
On 05/26/2013 05:11 PM, Richard wrote:
Nope :-)
Lots of terminals used encodings for foreign
character sets. In the
documentation I've read, they simply have a table showing the
encoding. I don't recall reading references to any sort of standard
for the encoding scheme. For instance, HP 2645A had versions that
supported a national character set, including a Swedish one designated
2645S.
You miss my question, I think, Richard. What I really want to know is "What is the
corresponding PAL standard
that corresponds to EIA/CEA 608 in the US? Is there an ETSI document
that describes it?
Yes, but I don't know anything about that. However, would it be too
surprising if everyone was following the same defacto standard without
naming it? Looking at other implementations might find a common
encoding.
If you're not familiar with EIA/CEA-608 and you
have an interest in
terminal protocols, you're missing out on what used to be the most
common protocol (with the largest market) of any single
protocol--closed-caption TV.
Gotta draw a line somewhere :-).
--
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<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
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8:50 p.m.
On 05/26/2013 07:28 PM, Richard wrote:
Yes, but I don't know anything about that.
However, would it be too
surprising if everyone was following the same defacto standard without
naming it? Looking at other implementations might find a common
encoding.
You wouldn't believe the variation in captioning standards. For
example, modern online film is now captioned in SMPTE 2052, (SMPTE-TT)
or TTML, yet another hypertext HTML subset.
A lot of details are kept confidential (lots of money involved).
I believe that EIA/CEA-708 is used for modern (DTV) content.
Again, I have no idea what PAL broadcasts used.
--Chuck
31 May
31 May
1:58 p.m.
Hi Chuck,
Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
> "Vi har v?ra egna filist?er som ger sig p?
oss om vi inte ?r vaksamma."
"We have our own Philistines who gives up on us
if we are not vigilant."?
Probably not a very good Google-translation...
It's not good, "We have our own Philistines who will turn against us if
we are not vigilant." is a better translation.
Are you familiar with this type of encoding?
Unfortunately no. As you previously said that the text was on a 8"
floppy my first thought was that it came from an ABC80 [1]. But the
ABC80 character map ([2], page 32) contains the Swedish characters
natively, so using separate diacritical marks does not make sense.
Cheers,
--Frej
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC_80
[2] http://www.abc80.net/docs/luxor/abc80_bruksanvisning.pdf
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participants (9)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bear＠typewritten.org -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
frej.drejhammar＠gmail.com -
iamcamiel＠gmail.com -
legalize＠xmission.com -
lproven＠gmail.com -
stefan.skoglund＠agj.net