24 Aug
2011
24 Aug
'11
10:39 p.m.
From today's (August 24) Wall Street Journal front page:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.h…
Written as a bit of a puff piece, but interesting nonetheless, given
the national reach of the WSJ. It might (though I doubt it) spur a
few Wall Street types to take a keener interest in retro gear, making
things dearer and harder for us homie hobbyists to acquire. :)
Kudo's to Ian (King) and Rich (Alderson), et al.
-- Jared
25 Aug
25 Aug
12:15 a.m.
On 25/08/2011 06:39, J Blaser < wrote:
From today's (August 24) Wall Street Journal front
page:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.h…
Written as a bit of a puff piece, but interesting nonetheless, given
the national reach of the WSJ. It might (though I doubt it) spur a
few Wall Street types to take a keener interest in retro gear, making
things dearer and harder for us homie hobbyists to acquire. :)
Kudo's to Ian (King) and Rich (Alderson), et al.
-- Jared
But that takes away what, for me anyway, is one of the most fun aspects
of this hobby - the hunt!
10:56 p.m.
One of our goals is to ensure that for the foreseeable future, "the hunt" will
still exist. One of my non-techie friends says that what we're doing makes an
important difference because more people will realize that the old accounting system
that's been taking up room in the back of the warehouse may be worth more than metal
scrap, that there is a real market for vintage systems. Maybe this means that someone who
might have gotten a system for free, just for hauling it away, will now have to offer some
sort of payment - sorry, and I can sympathize because some of the machines in my personal
collection came from just that sort of "please take it away" situation. But we
still acquire machines gratis, simply because someone cares about it and doesn't want
to send it to the smelter (even though we then pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to
ship it!), so I don't think the days of glory are altogether behind us. If anything,
it's been the eBay feeding frenzy that's contributed to horrendous pricing - but
this too shall almost certainly pass, and valuations will become more rational. Hope
springs eternal.... -- Ian
________________________________________
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
James Wilson [james at machineroom.info]
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 12:15 AM
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer
On 25/08/2011 06:39, J Blaser < wrote:
From today's (August 24) Wall Street Journal front
page:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.h…
Written as a bit of a puff piece, but interesting nonetheless, given
the national reach of the WSJ. It might (though I doubt it) spur a
few Wall Street types to take a keener interest in retro gear, making
things dearer and harder for us homie hobbyists to acquire. :)
Kudo's to Ian (King) and Rich (Alderson), et al.
-- Jared
But that takes away what, for me anyway, is one of the most fun aspects
of this hobby - the hunt!
5 Sep
5 Sep
6:24 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 9/4/11 10:56 PM, Ian King wrote:
more people will realize that the old accounting
system that's been taking up room in the back
of the warehouse may be worth more than metal scrap
With gold over $1000/oz, has anyone figured out what the real scrap value of something
like a 7090
or 360 currently is for the copper and precious metals?
That is what you're fighting against, and it has been the same since the 70's.
If anyone notices the amount of copper and gold in an old box in the back room, it is
gone.
6:43 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
With gold over $1000/oz, has anyone figured out what
the real scrap value of
something like a 7090
or 360 currently is for the copper and precious metals?
That is what you're fighting against, and it has been the same since the
70's.
If anyone notices the amount of copper and gold in an old box in the back
room, it is gone.
I would say it depends on the business that owns the machine. The
relatively small value of a S/360 model 22 to an independent old-time
service bureau might be worth more than the monster value of a 3033 to
a good sized bank.
--
Will
9:14 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 5 Sep 2011 at 9:43, William Donzelli wrote:
I would say it depends on the business that owns the
machine. The
relatively small value of a S/360 model 22 to an independent old-time
service bureau might be worth more than the monster value of a 3033 to
a good sized bank.
There are things that make me think that a lot of this gold/copper
rush is pure speculation.
Consider, for example, rhodium. Selling at about $10K per ounce in
2008, it took a drop to $2K when the market tanked, and is
essentially still there. It hasn't mirrored gold at all.
--Chuck
9:39 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 05/09/11 12:14 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 5 Sep 2011 at 9:43, William Donzelli wrote:
Of course. But the rise in commodities prices driven by China (copper is
a good example) is real, and changes people's behaviour. Theft of copper
and other metals is more commonplace than it was. People get
electrocuted frequently while trying to steal live wires. And this is a
sign of the times:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2009/may/17/henry-moore-sculpture-th…
--Toby
I would say it depends on the business that owns
the machine. The
relatively small value of a S/360 model 22 to an independent old-time
service bureau might be worth more than the monster value of a 3033 to
a good sized bank.
There are things that make me think that a lot of this gold/copper
rush is pure speculation.
Consider, for example, rhodium. Selling at about $10K per ounce in
2008, it took a drop to $2K when the market tanked, and is
essentially still there. It hasn't mirrored gold at all.
--Chuck
11:13 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 09/05/2011 12:39 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
Of course. But the rise in commodities prices driven
by China (copper is
a good example) is real, and changes people's behaviour. Theft of copper
and other metals is more commonplace than it was. People get
electrocuted frequently while trying to steal live wires.
Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin.
In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's
living room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go
outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper
coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They often huff
the freon while they're at it, according to the cops. Fortunately for
the rest of us, sometimes this kills them...but not often enough.
And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either.
Dirtbags. They're almost as bad as suits.
Almost.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
11:25 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
There's an excellent NPR podcast about economics called Planet Money. They
did a great show on why gold is the de-facto universal currency.
They break down the requirements and needs of a currency and, accounting for
stability, toxicity, availability, portability, and overall ease of
collection and processing - you are left off with only a few available
metals. Gold is one of them, along with silver, palladium, and the other
metals usually used as a store of value, coincidentally enough.
12:43 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 05/09/11 2:13 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/05/2011 12:39 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
They're the lucky ones. The rest of us live on to deal with the
circumstances that lead people to think this is a good idea...
Of course. But the rise in commodities prices
driven by China (copper is
a good example) is real, and changes people's behaviour. Theft of copper
and other metals is more commonplace than it was. People get
electrocuted frequently while trying to steal live wires.
Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin.
In Florida, it has become common for one to be
sitting in one's living
room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go outside
and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper coils in
the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They often huff the freon
while they're at it, according to the cops. Fortunately for the rest of
us, sometimes this kills them...but not often enough.
And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either.
Dirtbags. They're almost as bad as suits.
Sounds a bit like blaming the victim, Dave.
--T
Almost.
-Dave
1:04 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 09/05/2011 03:43 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
The dirtbag who huffs someone's freon and then steals the coils is a
"victim"? Of what, exactly?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
In Florida,
it has become common for one to be sitting in one's living
room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go outside
and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper coils in
the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They often huff the freon
while they're at it, according to the cops. Fortunately for the rest of
us, sometimes this kills them...but not often enough.
And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either.
Dirtbags. They're almost as bad as suits.
Sounds a bit like blaming the victim, Dave.
2:14 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 5 Sep 2011 at 16:04, Dave McGuire wrote:
The dirtbag who huffs someone's freon and then
steals the coils is a
"victim"? Of what, exactly?
Probably of his own misdeeds. Permanent brain damage is a frequent
companion of "huffing".
--Chuck
2:20 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 09/05/2011 05:14 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Something has to bootstrap the process, and people need to take
responsibility for their actions.
Oh wait, what am I saying! This is America, where we don't have to
do that!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
The
dirtbag who huffs someone's freon and then steals the coils is a
"victim"? Of what, exactly?
Probably of his own misdeeds. Permanent brain damage is a frequent
companion of "huffing".
2:40 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 5 Sep 2011 at 17:20, Dave McGuire wrote:
Something has to bootstrap the process, and people
need to take
responsibility for their actions.
A lot of these folks are drug addicts, mostly meth. I remember that
a couple of years ago, a couple of these guys broke into the cage
around a 500KV distribution substation and ripped up and made off
with much of the grounding grid for it.
The Bonneville workers were surprised that none of the thieves got
fried.
--Chuck
3:29 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 09/05/2011 05:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Yep, I've heard that too. THAT process also has to start somewhere.
Something
has to bootstrap the process, and people need to take
responsibility for their actions.
A lot of these folks are drug addicts, mostly meth. I remember that
a couple of years ago, a couple of these guys broke into the cage
around a 500KV distribution substation and ripped up and made off
with much of the grounding grid for it.
The Bonneville workers were surprised that none of the thieves got
fried.
That's pretty amazing, they certainly got lucky. Even if the gene
pool didn't.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
4:13 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 5 Sep 2011 at 18:29, Dave McGuire wrote:
Yep, I've heard that too. THAT process also
has to start
somewhere.
Catalytic converter thefts are up. The metals people say they don't
understand why--yes, there's platinum, but it's fairly difficult to
extract economically.
Reminds me of the guys who'd rip of the gold galvonometer supports in
the chart recorders, along with the sliver slidewire beads. There
probably wasn't enough there in salvage value to buy much more than a
few beers at the local watering hole.
I was surprised that nobody slipped between the furnace walls yanked
out the 3 ft. long Pt, Pt-Rh thermocouples and ran off with them.
Probably had something to do with the 2500F furnace temp.
--Chuck
4:33 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 09/05/2011 07:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Catalytic converter thefts are up. The metals people
say they don't
understand why--yes, there's platinum, but it's fairly difficult to
extract economically.
And if I understand correctly, there's very little metal in them to
begin with, and probably really dangerous (carcinogenically speaking) to
extract.
Reminds me of the guys who'd rip of the gold
galvonometer supports in
the chart recorders, along with the sliver slidewire beads. There
probably wasn't enough there in salvage value to buy much more than a
few beers at the local watering hole.
...which is probably exactly what they were after.
I was surprised that nobody slipped between the
furnace walls yanked
out the 3 ft. long Pt, Pt-Rh thermocouples and ran off with them.
Probably had something to do with the 2500F furnace temp.
Fried dirtbag! ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
3:48 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 05/09/11 5:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 5 Sep 2011 at 17:20, Dave McGuire wrote:
So there's a clue, Dave. Unless you think the "War on Drugs" has had any
net social benefit. Which would be a rather bizarre and difficult
position to defend.
--Toby
Something has to bootstrap the process, and
people need to take
responsibility for their actions.
A lot of these folks are drug addicts, mostly meth. I remember that
a couple of years ago, a couple of these guys broke into the cage
around a 500KV distribution substation and ripped up and made off
with much of the grounding grid for it.
The Bonneville workers were surprised that none of the thieves got
fried.
--Chuck
4:22 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 09/05/2011 06:48 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
So there's a clue, Dave. Unless you think the "War on Drugs" has had any
net social benefit. Which would be a rather bizarre and difficult
position to defend.
The War On Some Drugs in particular, no, I'd never defend that.
However, as to your "clue", the meth didn't reach out and grab these
people. The CHOSE to do it, at least in the beginning.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Something has to bootstrap the process, and people
need to take
responsibility for their actions.
A lot of these folks are drug addicts, mostly meth. 
5:07 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On Mon, Sep 05, 2011 at 06:48:53PM -0400, Toby Thain wrote:
On 05/09/11 5:40 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Well, so far the "War on (some) Drugs" has only achieved two things:
- put a lot of people in jail that otherwise wouldn't be there
- make producing and selling drugs an insanely profitable business
(for the top dogs in the business, of course)
Aside from that there is plenty of collateral damage both to a lot of
individuals and to society as a whole.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
On 5 Sep 2011 at 17:20, Dave McGuire wrote:
So there's a clue, Dave. Unless you think the "War on Drugs" has had any
net social benefit. Which would be a rather bizarre and difficult
position to defend. Something has to bootstrap the process, and
people need to take
responsibility for their actions.
A lot of these folks are drug addicts, mostly meth.
5:21 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 09/05/2011 08:07 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
So there's a clue, Dave. Unless you think the "War on Drugs" has had any
net social benefit. Which would be a rather bizarre and difficult
position to defend.
Well, so far the "War on (some) Drugs" has only achieved two things:
- put a lot of people in jail that otherwise wouldn't be there
- make producing and selling drugs an insanely profitable business
(for the top dogs in the business, of course)
Aside from that there is plenty of collateral damage both to a lot of
individuals and to society as a whole.
Yes. It's really quite silly, and the politicians seem to be doing
it so they can point to it and say they're "doing something", usually to
the soccer moms, especially around reelection time.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Something
has to bootstrap the process, and people need to take
responsibility for their actions.
A lot of these folks are drug addicts, mostly meth.
3:26 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On Mon, Sep 05, 2011 at 02:14:26PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 5 Sep 2011 at 16:04, Dave McGuire wrote:
Doesn't sound like a noticeable change for someone who thinks huffing freon
is a good idea.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
The dirtbag who huffs someone's freon and
then steals the coils is a
"victim"? Of what, exactly?
Probably of his own misdeeds. Permanent brain damage is a frequent
companion of "huffing". 
7:14 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On Mon, 5 Sep 2011, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/05/2011 03:43 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
The dirtbag who huffs someone's freon and then steals the coils is a
"victim"? Of what, exactly?
Now if we can convince the huffing underworld to buy the notion that
huffing cyanide is cool, then we're onto something good.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
In
Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's living
room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go outside
and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper coils in
the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They often huff the freon
while they're at it, according to the cops. Fortunately for the rest of
us, sometimes this kills them...but not often enough.
And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either.
Dirtbags. They're almost as bad as suits.
Sounds a bit like blaming the victim, Dave. 
2:24 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 05/09/2011 19:13, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/05/2011 12:39 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
The academic and telecomms communities in the UK have plenty of
instances of fibre optic links suddenly going down, and the repair crews
finding someone has ripped up "the wires" to sell for scrap.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
Of course. But the rise in commodities prices
driven by China (copper is
a good example) is real, and changes people's behaviour. Theft of copper
and other metals is more commonplace than it was. People get
electrocuted frequently while trying to steal live wires.
Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin.
In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's living
room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go outside
and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper coils in
the condenser unit of your air conditioner.
6:41 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 05/09/11 5:24 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote:
On 05/09/2011 19:13, Dave McGuire wrote:
I expect that soon enough we will begin to see fewer metal fixtures and
parts in easily-accessible public installations. & fewer extravagances
like the great big sheet of (apparently) copper that lines the elevator
in this 60s-era apartment building. Not only public sculpture parks are
running scared after the awful Henry Moore theft.
Things will change.
--Toby
On 09/05/2011 12:39 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
The academic and telecomms communities in the UK have plenty of
instances of fibre optic links suddenly going down, and the repair crews
finding someone has ripped up "the wires" to sell for scrap.
Of course. But the rise in commodities prices
driven by China (copper is
a good example) is real, and changes people's behaviour. Theft of copper
and other metals is more commonplace than it was. People get
electrocuted frequently while trying to steal live wires.
Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin.
In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's
living room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You
go outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the
copper coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. 
2:28 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 9/5/2011 11:13 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin.
In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's
living room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You
go outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the
copper coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They
often huff the freon while they're at it, according to the cops.
Fortunately for the rest of us, sometimes this kills them...but not
often enough.
And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either.
Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air conditioner it's *unfortunate
when they don't die as a result*.
You must be a real hit at parties.
Josh
Dirtbags. They're almost as bad as suits.
Almost.
-Dave
2:36 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500Pounds?)
Those are real big words coming from a guy who still has a working air conditioner.
-----Original Message-----
From: Josh Dersch <derschjo at mail.msu.edu>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 14:28:02
To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500
Pounds?)
On 9/5/2011 11:13 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin.
In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's
living room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You
go outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the
copper coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They
often huff the freon while they're at it, according to the cops.
Fortunately for the rest of us, sometimes this kills them...but not
often enough.
And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either.
Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air conditioner it's *unfortunate
when they don't die as a result*.
You must be a real hit at parties.
Josh
Dirtbags. They're almost as bad as suits.
Almost.
-Dave
3:01 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500Pounds?)
ROFL!!
On 09/05/2011 05:36 PM, Vintage Coder wrote:
Those are real big words coming from a guy who still
has a working air conditioner.
-----Original Message-----
From: Josh Dersch<derschjo at mail.msu.edu>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
Date: Mon, 05 Sep 2011 14:28:02
To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500
Pounds?)
On 9/5/2011 11:13 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Good riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin.
In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's
living room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You
go outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the
copper coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They
often huff the freon while they're at it, according to the cops.
Fortunately for the rest of us, sometimes this kills them...but not
often enough.
And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either.
Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air conditioner it's *unfortunate
when they don't die as a result*.
You must be a real hit at parties.
Josh
Dirtbags. They're almost as bad as suits.
Almost.
-Dave
3 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 09/05/2011 05:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
Yes, exactly. If the dirtbag steals MY air conditioner and I'm
anywhere nearby, he's going to eat lead, plain and simple.
Good riddance,
and thank you Mr. Darwin.
In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's living
room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go
outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper
coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They often huff
the freon while they're at it, according to the cops. Fortunately for
the rest of us, sometimes this kills them...but not often enough.
And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either.
Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air conditioner it's *unfortunate
when they don't die as a result*. You must be a real hit at parties.
Yes, usually. But then I tend to party with people who don't
inexplicably feel sorry for people who don't fucking behave themselves
and screw with other peoples' shit in order to appear "cool" in front of
their dirtbag friends.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
3:59 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 9/5/2011 3:00 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
I don't recall saying anything approximating "I feel sorry for jerks who
steal stuff" -- perhaps you have me confused with some other person?
I'm going to suggest (and you may feel free to disagree with me) that
perhaps stealing an air conditioner does not warrant the death penalty?
(And as a corollary: Me stating that the death penalty is not an
appropriate punishment for theft of household cooling devices does not
imply that I "feel sorry" for the perpetrators of said crime.)
Josh
Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an
air conditioner it's *unfortunate
when they don't die as a result*.
Yes, exactly. If the dirtbag steals MY air conditioner and I'm
anywhere nearby, he's going to eat lead, plain and simple.
You must be a real hit at parties.
Yes, usually. But then I tend to party with people who don't
inexplicably feel sorry for people who don't fucking behave themselves
and screw with other peoples' shit in order to appear "cool" in front
of their dirtbag friends.
-Dave
4:25 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 09/05/2011 06:59 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
I don't recall saying anything approximating "I feel sorry for jerks who
steal stuff" -- perhaps you have me confused with some other person? I'm
going to suggest (and you may feel free to disagree with me) that
perhaps stealing an air conditioner does not warrant the death penalty?
(And as a corollary: Me stating that the death penalty is not an
appropriate punishment for theft of household cooling devices does not
imply that I "feel sorry" for the perpetrators of said crime.)
I apologize if I read too much into your statement. I do NOT think
that such thievery warrants "the death penalty" as imposed by the
government when the dirtbag gets busted. I do, however, think it is
JUST FINE when these idiots do dirtbaggish things and get themselves
killed in the process.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air
conditioner it's *unfortunate
when they don't die as a result*.
Yes, exactly. If the dirtbag steals MY air conditioner and I'm
anywhere nearby, he's going to eat lead, plain and simple.
You must be a real hit at parties.
Yes, usually. But then I tend to party with people who don't
inexplicably feel sorry for people who don't fucking behave themselves
and screw with other peoples' shit in order to appear "cool" in front
of their dirtbag friends.
4:57 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 05/09/11 6:00 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/05/2011 05:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
Yes, exactly. If the dirtbag steals MY air conditioner and I'm
anywhere nearby, he's going to eat lead, plain and simple.
Do you concealed carry, Dirty Harry? You should carry a warning label.
--T
Good
riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin.
In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's living
room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go
outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper
coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They often huff
the freon while they're at it, according to the cops. Fortunately for
the rest of us, sometimes this kills them...but not often enough.
And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either.
Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air conditioner it's *unfortunate
when they don't die as a result*. You must be a real hit at parties.
Yes, usually. But then I tend to party with people who don't
inexplicably feel sorry for people who don't fucking behave themselves
and screw with other peoples' shit in order to appear "cool" in front of
their dirtbag friends.
-Dave
5:03 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 09/05/2011 07:57 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
Yes, exactly. If the dirtbag steals MY air conditioner and I'm
anywhere nearby, he's going to eat lead, plain and simple.
Do you concealed carry, Dirty Harry? You should carry a warning label.
I do not. But that warning label would read: "Warning: Do not be a
dirtbag within fifty feet of this property." I have little tolerance
for dirtbags. (where "little" is equal to "no")
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Good riddance,
and thank you Mr. Darwin.
In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's living
room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go
outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper
coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They often huff
the freon while they're at it, according to the cops. Fortunately for
the rest of us, sometimes this kills them...but not often enough.
And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either.
Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air conditioner it's *unfortunate
when they don't die as a result*.
7:20 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On Mon, 5 Sep 2011, Toby Thain wrote:
On 05/09/11 6:00 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
He could be talking about his lead-loaded shillelagh.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
On 09/05/2011 05:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
Yes, exactly. If the dirtbag steals MY air conditioner and I'm
anywhere nearby, he's going to eat lead, plain and simple.
Do you concealed carry, Dirty Harry? You should carry a warning label. Good
riddance, and thank you Mr. Darwin.
In Florida, it has become common for one to be sitting in one's living
room and suddenly notice it's getting warm in the house. You go
outside and find that some street urchin has made off with the copper
coils in the condenser unit of your air conditioner. They often huff
the freon while they're at it, according to the cops. Fortunately for
the rest of us, sometimes this kills them...but not often enough.
And this isn't only happening in "those" neighborhoods, either.
Ah, yes, when "those" people steal an air conditioner it's *unfortunate
when they don't die as a result*. 
6 Sep
6 Sep
12:40 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On Mon, 05 Sep 2011 12:39:04 -0400
Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
People get electrocuted frequently while trying to
steal live wires.
This happened in a city near by. That Idiot (C) (R) (TM) tried to
steal a live 20,000 V three phase cable. He got almost cremationed...
... and half of the city was dark. => Darwin Award candidate.
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
5 Sep
5 Sep
9:47 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
There are things that make me think that a lot of this
gold/copper
rush is pure speculation.
The gold market and copper market are only slightly related. Gold
moves almost purely for economic reasons, but copper moves for more
industrial reasons.
Consider, for example, rhodium. ?Selling at about $10K
per ounce in
2008, it took a drop to $2K when the market tanked, and is
essentially still there. ?It hasn't mirrored gold at all.
Rhodium is in its own little world. There just are not all that many
rhodium investors.
--
Will
10:27 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 5 Sep 2011 at 12:47, William Donzelli wrote:
The gold market and copper market are only slightly
related. Gold
moves almost purely for economic reasons, but copper moves for more
industrial reasons.
That's what one would believe, but the truth apparently is stranger.
The Beeb did a documentary on commodities earlier this year. Here's
the audio for the one on copper:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00gvpjb
--Chuck
11:02 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
That's what one would believe, but the truth
apparently is stranger.
The Beeb did a documentary on commodities earlier this year. ?Here's
the audio for the one on copper:
Nothing in that audio clip is a shock.
--
Will
11:07 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 09/05/2011 02:02 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
*snicker*
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
That's
what one would believe, but the truth apparently is stranger.
The Beeb did a documentary on commodities earlier this year. Here's
the audio for the one on copper:
Nothing in that audio clip is a shock. 
10:51 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 9/4/11 10:56 PM, Ian King wrote:
In the late 70's I lost an HP 2116 to silver and gold
value. They
wanted and got $3000 for it for metal scrap alone. The main values
supposedly was in silver.
I was told that 360's had more silver in them than gold, and it is now
near or at an all time high value as well.
I also was told that University of Missouri, Rolla's 360/50 went for
around 25,000 in the early 80's for scrap. They were given 4341's by
IBM to replace the /50, later upgraded by IBM at their cost. UMR had
purchased the 360/50 in an unusual early buy in 1969 or 1970, when the
usual procedure was to lease.
University of Missouri, Columbia had a 370/158 at the time, don't know
if it was owned, but most likely was as well.
There was a service company, Sorbus which merged with another large
service company, Braeden in the early 80's again who had a 360/40 for
test purposes in Anaheim, CA. I'm not sure what happened to it. They
were in bankruptcy, and I tried to obtain this machine, but never could
find someone who would release it for sale. someone in the organization
hopefully saved it, as that was the hangup, it was held for someone else
to buy from the estate.
Jim
more people will realize that the old accounting
system that's been
taking up room in the back
of the warehouse may be worth more than metal scrap
With gold over $1000/oz, has anyone figured out what the real scrap
value of something like a 7090
or 360 currently is for the copper and precious metals?
That is what you're fighting against, and it has been the same since
the 70's.
If anyone notices the amount of copper and gold in an old box in the
back room, it is gone.
11:12 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
In the late 70's I lost an HP 2116 to silver and
gold value. ?They wanted
and got $3000 for it for metal scrap alone. ?The main values supposedly was
in silver.
That sounds far too high. The buyer probably had a reseller in mind.
Sure, HP stuff of the era has lots of gold (the boards generally are
completely plated in it), but not a *pound* of the stuff. HP2116s are
just not that big.
I also was told that University of Missouri,
Rolla's 360/50 went for around
25,000 in the early 80's for scrap.
For a whole installation - a really big one - perhaps in that
ballpark. Back in those days a scrapper I knew told me a good sized
mainframe installation would get him about $10K, little ones a couple
thousand.
--
Will
11:35 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
In the late
70's I lost an HP 2116 to silver and gold value. They wanted
and got $3000 for it for metal scrap alone. The main values supposedly was
in silver.
That sounds far too high. The buyer probably had a reseller in mind.
Sure, HP stuff of the era has lots of gold (the boards generally are
completely plated in it), but not a *pound* of the stuff. HP2116s are
just not that big.
I also was
told that University of Missouri, Rolla's 360/50 went for around
25,000 in the early 80's for scrap.
For a whole installation - a really big
one - perhaps in that
ballpark. Back in those days a scrapper I knew told me a good sized
mainframe installation would get him about $10K, little ones a couple
thousand.
--
Will
12:02 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
both the 360 / 50 and the 2116 were very large units.
?the /50 had 1.5mb of
memory added along with other options.
Yes, model 50 installations could fill an entire big room or two. But
a big 2116? Four or five standard HP racks, if it were tricked out
with the entire shooting match? Still sounds high for pure scrap
value.
the 2116 had an expansion unit. ?As I said both values
were hearsay, but
were in response to inquiries to buy the units. ?I simply didn't have the
resources then to think about it, which is sad. ?both would still be around.
Yes, been there too.
And sometimes people quote big money for an item just to scare people
away. At the last MIT fest, I quoted one of the audio guys $800 for my
Scott 340B, just because I did not want him around my table. It
worked.
--
Will
11:19 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 5 Sep 2011 at 10:51, jim s wrote:
I was told that 360's had more silver in them than
gold, and it is now
near or at an all time high value as well.
And I'm certain that people said that this was normal market
fluctuation and not speculation. Why, just ask Nelson Bunker Hunt
and his brother William. Silver Thursday apparently never
happened...
--Chuck
10:59 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 9/4/11 10:56 PM, Ian King wrote:
This fleabay auction, 270808374360 claims to have backplane
parts for
palladium metal scrap value, by the way, someone else mentioned rhodium,
who knows what else in the parts as well.
With gold as the leading metal these days if someone gets hold of it the
cheapest scrapping process is cyanide for gold, and I doubt that the
other rare earths and metals are looked for. They are pretty tricky to
pull out of the mess that remains after a cyanide high grading process
w/o killing ones' self.
A lot of the ones I knew had places "somewhere" which they went with
their scrap, and they powdered the material and did the process. I
suspect the residue cyanide was and is dumped near that spot. If one
tries that in a legal method, I don't know if you'd make any money after
you pay the costs of doing it in such a way as not to kill yourself, and
legally dispose of the residue.
We cleaned a lab in Newport Beach legally (where one list member works)
and for about 15# of alcohol and acids it cost around $4500 for the
disposal.
Each 55 gallon drum disposal was around $500 for low grade stuff
(material which was not things you could dump down the sink, but could
put in a disposal drum and not kill people).
obviously people extract gold value, but I always found that those who
did so to be pretty slimy folk (the actual metal extraction people).
Walked funny and talked with a slur, and worried about black
helicopters following them.
Jim
more people will realize that the old accounting
system that's been
taking up room in the back
of the warehouse may be worth more than metal scrap
With gold over $1000/oz, has anyone figured out what the real scrap
value of something like a 7090
or 360 currently is for the copper and precious metals?
That is what you're fighting against, and it has been the same since
the 70's.
If anyone notices the amount of copper and gold in an old box in the
back room, it is gone. 
6 Sep
6 Sep
1:17 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap....
Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local Unibus
system because the owner was worried about "environmental liability",
and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this several times now.
Paul
On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 12:59 PM, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
On 9/4/11
10:56 PM, Ian King wrote:
This fleabay auction, 270808374360 claims to have backplane parts for
palladium metal scrap value, by the way, someone else mentioned rhodium, who
knows what else in the parts as well.
With gold as the leading metal these days if someone gets hold of it the
cheapest scrapping process is cyanide for gold, and I doubt that the other
rare earths and metals are looked for. ?They are pretty tricky to pull out
of the mess that remains after a cyanide high grading process w/o killing
ones' self.
A lot of the ones I knew had places "somewhere" which they went with their
scrap, and they powdered the material and did the process. ?I suspect the
residue cyanide was and is dumped near that spot. ?If one tries that in a
legal method, I don't know if you'd make any money after you pay the costs
of doing it in such a way as not to kill yourself, and legally dispose of
the residue.
We cleaned a lab in Newport Beach legally (where one list member works) and
for about 15# of alcohol and acids it cost around $4500 for the disposal.
Each 55 gallon drum disposal was around $500 for low grade stuff (material
which was not things you could dump down the sink, but could put in a
disposal drum and not kill people).
obviously people extract gold value, but I always found that those who did
so to be pretty slimy folk (the actual metal extraction people). ?Walked
funny and talked with a slur, and worried about black helicopters following
them.
Jim
more people will realize that the old accounting system that's been
taking up room in the back
of the warehouse may be worth more than metal
scrap
With gold over $1000/oz, has anyone figured out what the real scrap value
of something like a 7090
or 360 currently is for the copper and precious metals?
That is what you're fighting against, and it has been the same since the
70's.
If anyone notices the amount of copper and gold in an old box in the back
room, it is gone. 
1:24 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
wait what?
On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:
I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap....
Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local Unibus
system because the owner was worried about "environmental liability",
and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this several times now.
Paul
On Mon, Sep 5, 2011 at 12:59 PM, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
who
> On 9/4/11 10:56 PM, Ian King wrote:
>>
>> more people will realize that the old accounting system that's been
>> taking up room in the back
>
> > of the warehouse may be worth more than metal scrap
>
> With gold over $1000/oz, has anyone figured out what the real scrap
value
> of something like a 7090
> or 360 currently is for the copper and precious metals?
>
> That is what you're fighting against, and it has been the same since the
> 70's.
>
> If anyone notices the amount of copper and gold in an old box in the
back
room, it
is gone.
This fleabay auction, 270808374360 claims to have backplane parts for
palladium metal scrap value, by the way, someone else mentioned rhodium, knows what else in the parts as well.
With gold as the leading metal these days if someone gets hold of it the
cheapest scrapping process is cyanide for gold, and I doubt that the
other
rare earths and metals are looked for. They are
pretty tricky to pull
out
of the mess that remains after a cyanide high
grading process w/o killing
ones' self.
A lot of the ones I knew had places "somewhere" which they went with
their
scrap, and they powdered the material and did the
process. I suspect the
residue cyanide was and is dumped near that spot. If one tries that in a
legal method, I don't know if you'd make any money after you pay the
costs
of doing it in such a way as not to kill
yourself, and legally dispose of
the residue.
We cleaned a lab in Newport Beach legally (where one list member works)
and
for about 15# of alcohol and acids it cost around
$4500 for the disposal.
Each 55 gallon drum disposal was around $500 for low grade stuff
(material
which was not things you could dump down the
sink, but could put in a
disposal drum and not kill people).
obviously people extract gold value, but I always found that those who
did
so to be pretty slimy folk (the actual metal
extraction people). Walked
funny and talked with a slur, and worried about black helicopters
following
them.
Jim
4:30 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 06/09/11 4:17 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap....
Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local Unibus
system because the owner was worried about "environmental liability",
and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this several times now.
This is absurd bullshit and very sad.
--Toby
Paul
7:10 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Toby Thain" <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500
Pounds?)
On 06/09/11 4:17 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
I guess somebody could rip out the gold/copper and leave the rest in some
ditch to decay and release the old lead solder and other heavy metals. Maybe
the rotting machine can be traced back to the original owner getting them
into trouble (easier to do with an expensive old mainframe then a C64
anyway).
I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap....
Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local Unibus
system because the owner was worried about "environmental liability",
and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this several times now.
This is absurd bullshit and very sad.
--Toby
>
> Paul
>
7:34 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 06/09/11 10:10 PM, TeoZ wrote:
----- Original Message ----- From: "Toby Thain" <toby at
telegraphics.com.au>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,
500 Pounds?)
I too can imagine tortuous, paranoid thinking that might lead somebody
to act that way. Doesn't make it any less ridiculous :)
--Toby
On 06/09/11 4:17 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
I guess somebody could rip out the gold/copper and leave the rest in
some ditch to decay and release the old lead solder and other heavy
metals. Maybe the rotting machine can be traced back to the original
owner getting them into trouble (easier to do with an expensive old
mainframe then a C64 anyway).
I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap....
Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local Unibus
system because the owner was worried about "environmental liability",
and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this several times now.
This is absurd bullshit and very sad.
--Toby
>
> Paul
>
8:27 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Toby Thain" <toby at telegraphics.com.au>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 10:34 PM
Subject: Re: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500
Pounds?)
I too can imagine tortuous, paranoid thinking that might lead somebody
to act that way. Doesn't make it any less ridiculous :)
--Toby
Well any company that would have that machine would be worried about selling
something (even for a few grand) that might cost them much more down the
road if not disposed of properly especially in states like CA. So some
places just pay to get it recycled at a place with a good paperwork trail.
8:51 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 06/09/11 4:17 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap....
Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local
Unibus
system because the owner was worried about
"environmental
liability", and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this
several times now.
Is this the sort of thinking that RoHS engenders?
--Chuck
7 Sep
7 Sep
5:07 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On 06/09/11 11:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 06/09/11 4:17 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
Yes, in the same way that the existence of laws make a young man's fancy
turn to thoughts of theft.
Sounds more like very confused personal paranoia to me. Most likely the
person in question has never heard of RoHS.
--Toby
I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap....
Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local
Unibus
system because the owner was worried about
"environmental
liability", and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this
several times now.
Is this the sort of thinking that RoHS engenders?
--Chuck
11:14 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,
On 06/09/11 4:17 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
I suspect it's the WEEE directive, actually, but it's as bad...
IMHO these regualtions have absolutely nothinh to do with actually
protecting the environment, and everything to do with protecting big
company profits. They are designed ot ensur stuff fails i n short time
(e.g. by iunsisting o nthe sue of inferior solder) and then ensure it
doesn't get repaired.
-tony
I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap....
Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very nice local
Unibus
system because the owner was worried about
"environmental
liability", and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this
several times now.
Is this the sort of thinking that RoHS engenders?
12:01 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,
On 7 Sep 2011 at 19:14, Tony Duell wrote:
IMHO these regualtions have absolutely nothinh to do
with actually
protecting the environment, and everything to do with protecting big
company profits. They are designed ot ensur stuff fails i n short time
(e.g. by iunsisting o nthe sue of inferior solder) and then ensure it
doesn't get repaired.
I hear that. The last job was resoldering the PCB in my coffee
maker; before that the relays in my Volvo (still have to redo the
instrument panel).
--Chuck
6 Sep
6 Sep
6:11 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
I wonder what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap....
Loewen might correct me, but I do not think any of the SAGE stuff had
much in the wait of precious metals, except perhaps some gold in some
of the tubes.
--
Will
7:59 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On Tue, 6 Sep 2011, William Donzelli wrote:
Well, the core memory plane contacts were all gold plated and I
believe the Pluggable Unit contacts were, as well. Have to check the
spares cabinet...
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
I wonder what
a Q-7 would be worth in scrap....
Loewen might correct me, but I do not think any of the SAGE stuff had
much in the wait of precious metals, except perhaps some gold in some
of the tubes.
8:23 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Loewen" <mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2011 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500
Pounds?)
On Tue, 6 Sep 2011, William Donzelli wrote:
Well, the core memory plane contacts were all gold plated and I believe
the Pluggable Unit contacts were, as well. Have to check the spares
cabinet...
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
The websites for gold recovery pretty much say anything gold plated (unless
it is over sterling silver that is recoverable) isn't worth the energy to
recover. Gold plating is so precise these days you can plate a layer a few
atoms thick. I figured some chips had gold interconnects so melting a small
pile of them would get you a decent amount of gold after chemical
separation.
I wonder
what a Q-7 would be worth in scrap....
Loewen might correct me, but I do not think any of the SAGE stuff had
much in the wait of precious metals, except perhaps some gold in some
of the tubes. 
7 Sep
7 Sep
5:46 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
At 10:23 PM 9/6/2011, TeoZ wrote:
The websites for gold recovery pretty much say anything
gold plated (unless it is over sterling silver that is recoverable) isn't worth the
energy to recover. Gold plating is so precise these days you can plate a layer a few atoms
thick. I figured some chips had gold interconnects so melting a small pile of them would
get you a decent amount of gold after chemical separation.
And do you have some experience or evidence about the thickness of gold
plating on expensive computer equipment manufactured in the 1970s when
gold was considerably less expensive?
- John
6 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
On Wed, 7 Sep 2011, John Foust wrote:
At 10:23 PM 9/6/2011, TeoZ wrote:
...or back in the mid-50s, which was when the Q7 was manufactured.
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
The websites for gold recovery pretty much say
anything gold plated (unless it is over sterling silver that is recoverable) isn't
worth the energy to recover. Gold plating is so precise these days you can plate a layer a
few atoms thick. I figured some chips had gold interconnects so melting a small pile of
them would get you a decent amount of gold after chemical separation.
And do you have some experience or evidence about the thickness of gold
plating on expensive computer equipment manufactured in the 1970s when
gold was considerably less expensive?
6 Sep
6 Sep
8:50 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
3 million watts, 2 of which were for the computer. I seem to recall a
LOT of copper buss bars.
On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 8:11 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
I wonder what
a Q-7 would be worth in scrap....
Loewen might correct me, but I do not think any of the SAGE stuff had
much in the wait of precious metals, except perhaps some gold in some
of the tubes.
--
Will
7 Sep
7 Sep
6:26 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
3 million watts, 2 of which were for the computer. I
seem to recall a
LOT of copper buss bars.
Yes. I would say most of the scrap value in a SAGE installation would
come from the copper, aluminum, and stainless steel, even if the
contacts were gold plated.
I am going to have to look at my "Q-7" modules, as I do not remember
them being gold plated. I suppose they could be super tarnished.
--
Will
6 Sep
6 Sep
10:36 p.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
Paul Anderson wrote:
Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a very
nice local Unibus
system because the owner was worried about "environmental liability",
and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this several times now.
It is unfortunately not a new twist, though it is more common now than
it was 20 years ago.
All the owner needed to to do deal with potential liability is to have
you sign a statement that you would dispose of it in accordance with all
applicable laws and regulations. The "dispose" part might not occur
until *many* years later, but that doesn't matter.
Sigh.
7 Sep
7 Sep
12:08 a.m.
New subject: Current metal values (was What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds?)
I did that and received no reply. I also offered to pay for the
system and have liability transfered to me, and giving them a paper
trail. I also offered to run it through a certified scrapper. The
system might still be there waiting for someone to decide.
I first noticed this about ten years ago, but companies were more flexible then.
Paul
On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 12:36 AM, Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com> wrote:
Paul Anderson wrote:
Here's a relatively new twist- I just lost a
very nice local Unibus
system because the owner was worried about "environmental liability",
and they wanted it properly scraped. I've seen this several times now.
It is unfortunately not a new twist, though it is more common now than it
was 20 years ago.
All the owner needed to to do deal with potential liability is to have you
sign a statement that you would dispose of it in accordance with all
applicable laws and regulations. ?The "dispose" part might not occur until
*many* years later, but that doesn't matter.
Sigh.
25 Aug
25 Aug
1:32 a.m.
On 2011 Aug 24, at 10:39 PM, J Blaser < wrote:
From today's (August 24) Wall Street Journal front
page:
http://online.wsj.com/article/
SB10001424053111903596904576516552161014410.html?
mod=WSJ_Ahed_AutomatedTypes
Written as a bit of a puff piece, but interesting nonetheless, given
the national reach of the WSJ. It might (though I doubt it) spur a
few Wall Street types to take a keener interest in retro gear, making
things dearer and harder for us homie hobbyists to acquire. :)
Kudo's to Ian (King) and Rich (Alderson), et al.
Gee, they went looking for a 7094 but only found a 7090, how dejecting
is that.
Seriously though, I do understand if the museum has a particular
mandate or focus.
Still, most of us wouldn't be sniffing at the opportunity of a 7090,
not that many of us could accommodate it.
What happened to the 7090 or is it's future known?
(.. nice job to have)
5:19 a.m.
Brent Hilpert wrote:
Gee, they went looking for a 7094 but only found a 7090, how dejecting
is that.
Seriously though, I do understand if the museum has a particular
mandate or focus.
The quest for a 7094 comes from the fact that it was the first machine
that IBM sold that could support a true timesharing computing
environment. Mr. Allen's focus is on historical timeshare computing
environments, because that's where he and Gates cut their teeth learning
about programming and operating systems.
While the 7090 was cool, it didn't have the hardware capabilities needed
to do timesharing. I sure hope *someone* rescue[ds] that 7090.
7:03 a.m.
Has anyone been to the Living Computer Museum? I'm going to Seattle in a few
weeks, and my significant other is geek-inclined...
3:20 p.m.
From: Jason McBrien
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 7:03 AM
Has anyone been to the Living Computer Museum? I'm
going to Seattle in a few
weeks, and my significant other is geek-inclined...
You can now request a visit from our home page at
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
With the WSJ article, we decided it was time to make it easy for folks
who wanted to visit the dinosaurs.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
4:41 p.m.
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 6:20 PM, Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> wrote:
You can now request a visit from our home page at
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
With the WSJ article, we decided it was time to make it easy for folks
who wanted to visit the dinosaurs.
Excellent! Thanks, Rich! I'm signing up now...
5:28 p.m.
In article <CAHG8iGWTemeCZ6ibspKqbxU3Oqx=J-9RZf0O4NX3C-pp=OLMDA at mail.gmail.com>,
Jason McBrien <jbmcb1 at gmail.com> writes:
Has anyone been to the Living Computer Museum? I'm
going to Seattle in a few
weeks, and my significant other is geek-inclined...
Yes, I've been there twice. Its awesome.
Pictures:
<http://picasaweb.google.com/legalize.slc/LivingComputerMuseum#>
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
8:32 p.m.
There is conversation in the community about ensuring its preservation. :-) -- Ian
________________________________________
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of
Rick Bensene [rickb at bensene.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2011 5:19 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: RE: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1,500 Pounds? A Minicomputer
Brent Hilpert wrote:
Gee, they went looking for a 7094 but only found a 7090, how dejecting
is that.
Seriously though, I do understand if the museum has a particular
mandate or focus.
The quest for a 7094 comes from the fact that it was the first machine
that IBM sold that could support a true timesharing computing
environment. Mr. Allen's focus is on historical timeshare computing
environments, because that's where he and Gates cut their teeth learning
about programming and operating systems.
While the 7090 was cool, it didn't have the hardware capabilities needed
to do timesharing. I sure hope *someone* rescue[ds] that 7090.
1:41 a.m.
New subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer
In a similar vein, I don't suppose any of the (few) 7030s (STRETCH)
have survived ..?
2:11 a.m.
New subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer
On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 01:41:33AM -0700, Brent Hilpert wrote:
In a similar vein, I don't suppose any of the
(few) 7030s (STRETCH)
have survived ..?
The Mus?e des arts et m?tiers at least has parts of one:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/vokabre/5703077167/
and CHM too i think:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lee_courtney/306326271/
/P
2:22 a.m.
New subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer
Brent Hilpert wrote:
In a similar vein, I don't suppose any of the
(few) 7030s (STRETCH)
have survived ..?
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "survived". Certainly there are
none that are operational, or even that could theoretically be made
operational without fabricating a lot of replacement equipment.
CHM has most of the Livermore machine, which unfortunately is missing
the core memory, disk, and the original console typewriter. When the
machine was auctioned, one person bid on it to try to preserve the
system, but others bid on the core memory and the console typewriter.
Apparently the person that bid on the typewriter really only wanted a
Selectric typewriter, and didn't need the special one used for the 7030.
CHM is displaying the 7030 programmer's console with a normal Selectric.
(There were probably less than a dozen of the Selectric model for the
7030 manufactured.)
CHM also has a portion of the one that was originally at MITRE then
spent time at BYU. Reportedly a professor at BYU saw it on a government
auction listing, bid on it without having a clue how massive the system
was, and sent some students with a pickup truck to fetch it. Somehow it
was arranged for IBM to pay to have it professionally moved to BYU, and
to get it working again there. (Installing a 7030 and getting it
operational was a herculean feat.) BYU also acquired the Los Alamos
7030 as a source of spare parts, so it is possible that some of the
Stretch hardware at CHM might have come from that machine. When BYU
decommissioned the system, they carefully deinstalled it by chopping all
of the cables. (This is typical of how large computer systems get
deinstalled.)
There's a sad story about the fate of the one-of-a-kind HARVEST system
(7950) that IBM built for the NSA. Harvest coupled a 7030 with a 7951
stream coprocessor, special two-hole-per-core high-speed core memory
(7952), a 7955 "Tractor" robotic tape system, and a 7959 high-speed
exchange (I/O channel controller). When the NSA decommissioned it in
1976, they wanted to give it to IBM for their historical collection.
However, being government property, it had to be put up for auction.
IBM's historian bid $20,050 for it, more than a year's worth of his
budget, and won it. Unfortunately not too many years later someone else
at IBM decided that they didn't want to store it any longer.
I have never been able to find any details of the ultimate disposition
of the other six 7030 systems.
Very little software for the 7030 still exists. The Computer History
Museum has printed listings of some software, and Al has scanned some
(or perhaps all) of it.
6:10 a.m.
New subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer
Apparently the person
that bid on the typewriter really only wanted a Selectric typewriter, and
didn't need the special one used for the 7030. CHM is displaying the 7030
programmer's console with a normal Selectric. (There were probably less than
a dozen of the Selectric model for the 7030 manufactured.)
Can you provide *specific* information on what makes the 7030
Selectric console unique?
I am going back to the pile at Los Alamos soon, and he has a *lot* of
Selectrics kicking around. I suppose there is a sliver of a chance he
may have one.
--
Will
5:32 p.m.
New subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer
William Donzelli wrote:
Can you provide *specific* information on what makes
the 7030
Selectric console unique?
It predated the release of the Selectric typewriter, which is why it was
deliberately obscured from view in all of the STRETCH publicity photos.
It is probably similar to the typewriter portion of the 1050 as used for
a System/360 console, but I doubt that it is identical. Unfortunately I
don't have details, so I wouldn't even know how to identify one.
1:35 p.m.
New subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer
On 2011 Aug 25, at 2:22 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
Brent Hilpert wrote:
In a similar vein, I don't suppose any of the
(few) 7030s (STRETCH)
have survived ..?
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "survived". Certainly there
are none that are operational, or even that could theoretically be
made operational without fabricating a lot of replacement equipment.
CHM has most of the Livermore machine, which unfortunately is missing
the core memory, disk, and the original console typewriter. When the
machine was auctioned, one person bid on it to try to preserve the
system, but others bid on the core memory and the console typewriter.
Apparently the person that bid on the typewriter really only wanted a
Selectric typewriter, and didn't need the special one used for the
7030. CHM is displaying the 7030 programmer's console with a normal
Selectric. (There were probably less than a dozen of the Selectric
model for the 7030 manufactured.) CHM also has a portion of the one that was originally
at MITRE then
spent time at BYU. Reportedly a professor at BYU saw it on a
government auction listing, bid on it without having a clue how
massive the system was, and sent some students with a pickup truck to
fetch it. Somehow it was arranged for IBM to pay to have it
professionally moved to BYU, and to get it working again there.
(Installing a 7030 and getting it operational was a herculean feat.)
BYU also acquired the Los Alamos 7030 as a source of spare parts, so
it is possible that some of the Stretch hardware at CHM might have
come from that machine. When BYU decommissioned the system, they
carefully deinstalled it by chopping all of the cables. (This is
typical of how large computer systems get deinstalled.)
There's a sad story about the fate of the one-of-a-kind HARVEST system
(7950) that IBM built for the NSA. Harvest coupled a 7030 with a 7951
stream coprocessor, special two-hole-per-core high-speed core memory
(7952), a 7955 "Tractor" robotic tape system, and a 7959 high-speed
exchange (I/O channel controller). When the NSA decommissioned it in
1976, they wanted to give it to IBM for their historical collection.
However, being government property, it had to be put up for auction.
IBM's historian bid $20,050 for it, more than a year's worth of his
budget, and won it. Unfortunately not too many years later someone
else at IBM decided that they didn't want to store it any longer.
I have never been able to find any details of the ultimate disposition
of the other six 7030 systems.
Very little software for the 7030 still exists. The Computer History
Museum has printed listings of some software, and Al has scanned some
(or perhaps all) of it.
Sad stories there, a lot of close-but-not-quite, but there are more
bits remaining than I thought there were.
I wonder where the one in the French museum (other reply) was used.
5:29 p.m.
New subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer
Brent Hilpert wrote:
I wonder where the one in the French museum (other
reply) was used.
Commisariat a l'Energie Atomique, for the design of nuclear weapons. I
expect it was used for the same things as the Los Alamos, Lawrence
Livermore, and UK Atomic Weapons Research Establishment systems.
Possibly even running some of the same application software.
My impression is that they saved a few of the console pieces and not
much else of the machine. I'd very much like to be proven wrong.
3:21 p.m.
New subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer
On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, Eric Smith wrote:
There's a sad story about the fate of the
one-of-a-kind HARVEST system (7950)
that IBM built for the NSA. Harvest coupled a 7030 with a 7951 stream
coprocessor, special two-hole-per-core high-speed core memory (7952), a 7955
"Tractor" robotic tape system, and a 7959 high-speed exchange (I/O channel
controller). When the NSA decommissioned it in 1976, they wanted to give it
to IBM for their historical collection. However, being government property,
it had to be put up for auction. IBM's historian bid $20,050 for it, more
than a year's worth of his budget, and won it. Unfortunately not too many
years later someone else at IBM decided that they didn't want to store it any
longer.
nsa did declassify some information about harvest earlier this year,
http://cryptome.org/0004/nsa-50k-docs.pdf .
But I don't think those are available in any electronic form, so someone
would probably have to pay for hardcopies.
--
Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8
4:31 p.m.
New subject: IBM 7030s? / was Re: What's 6 Feet Tall and Weighs 1, 500 Pounds? A Minicomputer
I know that Oregon State University received four (maybe six) Stretch
memory modules sometime in the 70s. I *think* they came from
Livermore. I was personally involved in a project to (successfully)
interface one of the beasts to our home-grown computer (Nebula)
replacing it's 4k words of glass-delay-line memory with 32K of core. If
I recall correctly, the stretch memory units were 16k X 72 bit data, of
which we used 34 bits (Nebula was 32 bit + two additional tag bits not
participating in arithmetic or logic operations.) We ran this unit for
a few years.
The units were originally acquired with the eye of adding them to our
CDC 3300 system (we had a pretty savvy team at the computer center
building all sorts of addons to our system) but the project was dropped
for some reason. In the shuffle, our Nebula team glommed onto one for
it's use and we build a really nice interface with multi-channel DMA
capability.
Unfortunately, the units were scrapped after I left school. We DID make
our changes without ANY mods to the stretch memory "just in case."
-Gary
On 08/25/2011 02:22 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
Brent Hilpert wrote:
In a similar vein, I don't suppose any of the
(few) 7030s (STRETCH)
have survived ..?
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "survived". Certainly there
are none that are operational, or even that could theoretically be
made operational without fabricating a lot of replacement equipment.
CHM has most of the Livermore machine, which unfortunately is missing
the core memory, disk, and the original console typewriter. When the
machine was auctioned, one person bid on it to try to preserve the
system, but others bid on the core memory and the console typewriter.
Apparently the person that bid on the typewriter really only wanted a
Selectric typewriter, and didn't need the special one used for the
7030. CHM is displaying the 7030 programmer's console with a normal
Selectric. (There were probably less than a dozen of the Selectric
model for the 7030 manufactured.)
<snip>
I have never been able to find any details of the ultimate disposition
of the other six 7030 systems.
Very little software for the 7030 still exists. The Computer History
Museum has printed listings of some software, and Al has scanned some
(or perhaps all) of it.
1:08 p.m.
Do these even exist? I have this vision of them being stripped and scrapped
for junk at some time. I read somewhere where people have made big iron
replicas....
On Thursday, August 25, 2011, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
The obvious asnwer to the subject: line is 'Dr
ARD' :-)
-tony
4 Sep
4 Sep
12:26 p.m.
Do these even exist? I have this vision of them being stripped and scrapped
Do what even exist? There are still some minicomputers around, including
some in 6' racks. And I can assue you that Dr ARD has not yet been
stripped for parts ;-)
-tony
for junk at some time. I read somewhere where people
have made big iron
replicas....
On Thursday, August 25, 2011, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> The obvious asnwer to the subject: line is 'Dr ARD' :-)
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