21 Aug
2001
21 Aug
'01
3:20 a.m.
Ok folks, I've about had it with the off topic stuff as of late, including
but not limited to the current "political" discussion. This also applies to
some of the "flame wars" that happened a month or so ago which I received
several complaints and "requests for action" about, as well as the long
discussion of caurberators for god's sake.
This list is for discussion of classic computers and narrowly related
issues. If you want to talk politics or cars, hit the newsgroups. If you
want to respond to an on-topic message with political commentary or flaming,
take it to private email. There is NOTHING that I want less than to be
perceived as heavy-handed or dictatorial, but in the interest of the list
subscribers at large I felt the need to bring this up. There are plenty of
majordomo configuration or filtering solutions available to me that will
address this, but I truely do not want to go that route.
Let's keep the signal-to-noise ratio within reasonable limits. Please?
Jay West
21 Aug
21 Aug
4:24 a.m.
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Jay West wrote:
This list is for discussion of classic computers and
narrowly related
issues. If you want to talk politics or cars, hit the newsgroups. If
you want to respond to an on-topic message with political commentary
or flaming, take it to private email. There is NOTHING that I want
less than to be perceived as heavy-handed or dictatorial, but in the
interest of the list subscribers at large I felt the need to bring
this up. There are plenty of majordomo configuration or filtering
solutions available to me that will address this, but I truely do not
want to go that route.
Jay, this has been a problem from way back when. I always advocated some
sort of moderation, which was usually received by screams and moaning from
the entrenched crowd of off-topic posters along with prophesies of doom
for the list, etc. I eventually gave up, and now just do like many other
people do, which is delete a lot of messages.
But I shouldn't have to be forced to do that.
Some sort of moderation IS required for off-topic posts. The off-topic
messages in the past year and a half have been so grossly off-topic as to
make moderation easy. An occasional rant or short-lived series is just
fine, but when a discussion on guns or carbeurators stretches on for
WEEKS, that's just too much. Start shit-canning those messages before
they hit the list and problem solved. People who purposely go out of
their way to start off-topic discussions (they know who they are) should
be warned once, maybe twice, and then the next time they try to insist on
their right to discuss off-topic nonsense they are restricted from posting
to the list for some amount of time (maybe 3 days). They'll eventually
learn. Serious offenders will be dipped in molten iron.
I say, if an off-topic thread hits four messages, all subsequent messages
are shit-canned, and the offending party warned. That should allow enough
flexibility for people to let off some steam and then get back on topic.
I'm in front of my computer a lot. Like most of the day. I'll be happy
to take on the first shift of a TEMPORARY moderator. It's an unpopular
job, I know, but I've never been one to shy away from controversy.
I would suggest that as a norm moderation be OFF. When an off-topic
thread starts, we turn moderation ON and kill the offending thread or
threads, send out the appropriate warnings, and then when things return to
normal we turn it back off again. This should only be required for a
short period of time, and then occasionally down the road as people forget
their lessons in MANNERS and ETIQUETTE.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
5:42 a.m.
Can the list software do this:
Maintain two lists of subscribed people: A moderated list and an unmoderated list.
Normally people are on the unmoderated list of subscribers.
When someone posts offtopic enough to warrant it, they get moved to the
moderated list of subscribers, and then (and only then) their posts have to be
OKed to make it to the list.
This allows the majority here to post without needing someone to continually
OK messages.
Does that make any sense at all or am I being an idiot again?
-------
5:53 a.m.
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote:
Maintain two lists of subscribed people: A moderated
list and an
unmoderated list. Normally people are on the unmoderated list of
subscribers. When someone posts offtopic enough to warrant it, they
get moved to the moderated list of subscribers, and then (and only
then) their posts have to be OKed to make it to the list.
What a great idea.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
6:01 a.m.
This is an acceptable construct for newsgroups since you can readily distingish
between the two groups but it would be a nightmare for any listmember that
want's to receive both lists. A double stream of Classic-stuff, partly pepperd
with
even more OT-dribble.
Just a little bit of educational OT-stuff makes life enjoyable. It's the
"This is my conviction, and you've got to eat it" rants that I hate.
It seems that for too many nerdy nerds the classic-comp list is the only
emotional outlet they have.
Sipke de Wal
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://xgistor.ath.cx
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel A. Seagraves <DSEAGRAV(a)toad.xkl.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 7:42 PM
Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary)
Can the list software do this:
Maintain two lists of subscribed people: A moderated list and an unmoderated
list.
Normally people are on the unmoderated list of
subscribers.
When someone posts offtopic enough to warrant it, they get moved to the
moderated list of subscribers, and then (and only then) their posts have to be
OKed to make it to the list.
This allows the majority here to post without needing someone to continually
OK messages.
Does that make any sense at all or am I being an idiot again?
-------
5:57 a.m.
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Sipke de Wal wrote:
This is an acceptable construct for newsgroups since
you can readily
distingish between the two groups but it would be a nightmare for any
listmember that want's to receive both lists. A double stream of
Classic-stuff, partly pepperd with even more OT-dribble.
There would still only be one list...all messages posted would go to the
same list. It's just the messages that are being posted by twits that
would go through a filter first.
Of course, the open nature of the list will have to be mitigated. But
all it means is that any postings from non-subscribers will simply go
through the filter, which is good for catching spam anyway.
It's a good solution.
Just a little bit of educational OT-stuff makes life
enjoyable. It's
the "This is my conviction, and you've got to eat it" rants that I
hate. It seems that for too many nerdy nerds the classic-comp list is
the only emotional outlet they have.
Sadly so.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
7:21 a.m.
Yes ... but one man's TWIT is another man's GURU.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 11:57 AM
Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary)
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Sipke de Wal wrote:
This is an acceptable construct for newsgroups
since you can readily
distingish between the two groups but it would be a nightmare for any
listmember that want's to receive both lists. A double stream of
Classic-stuff, partly pepperd with even more OT-dribble.
There would still only be one list...all messages posted would go to the
same list. It's just the messages that are being posted by twits that
would go through a filter first.
Of course, the open nature of the list will have to be mitigated. But
all it means is that any postings from non-subscribers will simply go
through the filter, which is good for catching spam anyway.
It's a good solution.
Just a little bit of educational OT-stuff makes
life enjoyable. It's
the "This is my conviction, and you've got to eat it" rants that I
hate. It seems that for too many nerdy nerds the classic-comp list is
the only emotional outlet they have.
Sadly so.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
6:18 a.m.
No, you misunderstood me - These are two lists of subscribers -
It affects SENDING only. There would be only one recieve list.
Basically, when the list software gets a message from someone, it does this:
If the sender is on the moderated-senders-list, the message goes to a moderator.
If not, it goes straight to the list.
Does this help?
-------
7:08 a.m.
FWIW, another list I am on is 'semi-moderated' in that new
subscribers are always moderated; after they have proved themselves capable
of intelligent discussion (:-)) they are unmoderated and their posts always
go through. I believe the listowner implemented this himself.
I'm not sure exactly how we would wish to implement such a thing here.
GZ
At 11:18 AM 8/21/2001 -0700, you wrote:
No, you misunderstood me - These are two lists of
subscribers -
It affects SENDING only. There would be only one recieve list.
Basically, when the list software gets a message from someone, it does this:
If the sender is on the moderated-senders-list, the message goes to a
moderator.
If not, it goes straight to the list.
Does this help?
-------
11:26 a.m.
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Daniel A. Seagraves wrote:
Maintain two lists of subscribed people: A moderated list and an
unmoderated list. Normally people are on the unmoderated list of
subscribers. When someone posts offtopic enough to warrant it, they
get moved to the moderated list of subscribers, and then (and only
then) their posts have to be OKed to make it to the list.
That sounds good to me, as long as there is some way for moderated posters
to become unmoderated again if they are good citizens for a sufficient
amount of time.
Also, it might be good for Jay to post an updated FAQ monthly to educate
newcomers about such policies and to remind us all of what exactly is
and/or is not off-topic.
--
Jeffrey S. Sharp
jss(a)subatomix.com
5:49 a.m.
Howevermuch i would like more moderation on the list.....
It will be a pity for future social scientists who will thus be deprived of
an unexhaustible source of raw (un)social data ;)
Does all the OT-static end up in the archives too ?
Sipke de Wal
---------------------------------------------------------------
http://xgistor.ath.cx
---------------------------------------------------------------
----- Original Message -----
From: Sellam Ismail <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary)
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Jay West wrote:
This list is for discussion of classic computers
and narrowly related
issues. If you want to talk politics or cars, hit the newsgroups. If
you want to respond to an on-topic message with political commentary
or flaming, take it to private email. There is NOTHING that I want
less than to be perceived as heavy-handed or dictatorial, but in the
interest of the list subscribers at large I felt the need to bring
this up. There are plenty of majordomo configuration or filtering
solutions available to me that will address this, but I truely do not
want to go that route.
Jay, this has been a problem from way back when. I always advocated some
sort of moderation, which was usually received by screams and moaning from
the entrenched crowd of off-topic posters along with prophesies of doom
for the list, etc. I eventually gave up, and now just do like many other
people do, which is delete a lot of messages.
But I shouldn't have to be forced to do that.
Some sort of moderation IS required for off-topic posts. The off-topic
messages in the past year and a half have been so grossly off-topic as to
make moderation easy. An occasional rant or short-lived series is just
fine, but when a discussion on guns or carbeurators stretches on for
WEEKS, that's just too much. Start shit-canning those messages before
they hit the list and problem solved. People who purposely go out of
their way to start off-topic discussions (they know who they are) should
be warned once, maybe twice, and then the next time they try to insist on
their right to discuss off-topic nonsense they are restricted from posting
to the list for some amount of time (maybe 3 days). They'll eventually
learn. Serious offenders will be dipped in molten iron.
I say, if an off-topic thread hits four messages, all subsequent messages
are shit-canned, and the offending party warned. That should allow enough
flexibility for people to let off some steam and then get back on topic.
I'm in front of my computer a lot. Like most of the day. I'll be happy
to take on the first shift of a TEMPORARY moderator. It's an unpopular
job, I know, but I've never been one to shy away from controversy.
I would suggest that as a norm moderation be OFF. When an off-topic
thread starts, we turn moderation ON and kill the offending thread or
threads, send out the appropriate warnings, and then when things return to
normal we turn it back off again. This should only be required for a
short period of time, and then occasionally down the road as people forget
their lessons in MANNERS and ETIQUETTE.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
5:55 a.m.
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Sipke de Wal wrote:
Howevermuch i would like more moderation on the
list.....
It will be a pity for future social scientists who will thus be deprived of
an unexhaustible source of raw (un)social data ;)
Does all the OT-static end up in the archives too ?
Unfortunately, yes. And think about it this way: future hobbyists,
historians and researches will have to wade through 50 off-topic and out
of context messages before they find that ONE message that actually
contains the information they were looking for.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
7:09 a.m.
Naww ... a text search will distinguish the few messages that contain relevant
information.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sellam Ismail" <foo(a)siconic.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary)
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Sipke de Wal wrote:
Howevermuch i would like more moderation on the
list.....
It will be a pity for future social scientists who will thus be deprived of
an unexhaustible source of raw (un)social data ;)
Does all the OT-static end up in the archives too ?
Unfortunately, yes. And think about it this way: future hobbyists,
historians and researches will have to wade through 50 off-topic and out
of context messages before they find that ONE message that actually
contains the information they were looking for.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
22 Aug
22 Aug
4:06 a.m.
Well I must admit to finding some hilarious moments in this current thread
and am against imposing on Jay the onerous and unthankfull job of
censorship of non-commercial OT threads, I must also agree that these OT
messages do compromise the integrity of the list. Anyone who has tried
extracting usefull info from eg: the Fido Rainbow archives and experienced
sorting thru the frustrating rants and OT discussions that went on, would do
well to remember those who follow. They won't give a damn about some minor
former pres. of these United States. A little self-restraint would go a long way.
Oh, and I'm baaack !! - after completing an arduous move of most of my
collection to my retirement home in the boonies of north-central Manitoba.
Lawrence
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Sipke de Wal wrote:
Reply to:
lgwalker(a)mts.net
Howevermuch i would like more moderation on the
list.....
It will be a pity for future social scientists who will thus be deprived of an
unexhaustible source of raw (un)social data ;)
Does all the OT-static end up in the archives too ?
Unfortunately, yes. And think about it this way: future hobbyists,
historians and researches will have to wade through 50 off-topic and out
of context messages before they find that ONE message that actually
contains the information they were looking for.
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
9:25 a.m.
New subject: Solution to OT messages (was: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST)
On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Lawrence Walker wrote:
Well I must admit to finding some hilarious moments
in this current thread
and am against imposing on Jay the onerous and unthankfull job of
censorship of non-commercial OT threads, I must also agree that these OT
messages do compromise the integrity of the list. Anyone who has tried
Since I got this latest off-topic mess started by commenting on how
Bush helped Clinton ruin the economy, and, in particular, hurt workers
in the computer field, for whom jobs are really drying up in some
areas, I'll help to fix the OT problem: I'll start a classiccmp-ot
mailing list, unless anyone else wants to.
Of course, giving this more thought, it's all those people who
listened to Bush about the economy being bad, and cut spending and
hiring as a result, who deserve as much blame. I guess one could call
it the Chicken Little syndrome, only something really did begin to
fall eventually.
Anyway, this way, anyone who wants to view off-topic postings can
simply reply to classiccmp-ot with anything off-topic resulting from
replies to the classiccmp list. How's that sound? Then, Jay can just
delete, or divert to classiccmp-ot, any OT messages that slip through
to that list, and everyone can be spared unwanted OT messages.
--
Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
9:25 a.m.
New subject: Solution to OT messages (was: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST)
Sounds like a very good solution to me. just please don't sign me up for the
OT list ;-)
R. D. Davis said:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Lawrence Walker wrote:
- Dan
Wright
(dtwright(a)uiuc.edu)
(http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright)
-] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [-
``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.''
Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan
Well I must admit to finding some hilarious
moments in this current thread
and am against imposing on Jay the onerous and unthankfull job of
censorship of non-commercial OT threads, I must also agree that these OT
messages do compromise the integrity of the list. Anyone who has tried
Since I got this latest off-topic mess started by commenting on how
Bush helped Clinton ruin the economy, and, in particular, hurt workers
in the computer field, for whom jobs are really drying up in some
areas, I'll help to fix the OT problem: I'll start a classiccmp-ot
mailing list, unless anyone else wants to.
Of course, giving this more thought, it's all those people who
listened to Bush about the economy being bad, and cut spending and
hiring as a result, who deserve as much blame. I guess one could call
it the Chicken Little syndrome, only something really did begin to
fall eventually.
Anyway, this way, anyone who wants to view off-topic postings can
simply reply to classiccmp-ot with anything off-topic resulting from
replies to the classiccmp list. How's that sound? Then, Jay can just
delete, or divert to classiccmp-ot, any OT messages that slip through
to that list, and everyone can be spared unwanted OT messages.
--
Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty. 
10:07 a.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
I've got an SS1 with a dead NVRAM chip. From the FAQs I've read, it's
trivial to set the MAC address after the chip dies and it's set to
FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF. Providing I use the Sun "standard" of 08:00:20 as the
first three bytes of the MAC address, is there any real issue with me
choosing a random value for the last three bytes? Alternately, if I call
Sun and give them the serial number of the machine, can they provide me
with it's original MAC address?
Thanks for your time.
g.
10:48 a.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
On 22 Aug, Gene Buckle wrote:
I've got an SS1 with a dead NVRAM chip. From the
FAQs I've read, it's
trivial to set the MAC address after the chip dies and it's set to
FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF.
It is even trivial to replace the dead battery inside the chip,
if you
know where and how to open it...
Providing I use the Sun "standard" of
08:00:20 as the
first three bytes of the MAC address, is there any real issue with me
choosing a random value for the last three bytes?
Just use random bytes. That is
what I did. But of course be sure that
there is no other machine on your network with that value...
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
23 Aug
23 Aug
12:15 a.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
On 22 Aug, Gene Buckle wrote:
Has anyone ever decoded the Sun barcodes and system serial numbers to
figure out what their scheme is on the original id's?
Why they won't make that available is beyond me.
Bill
--
Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a
villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
I've got an SS1 with a dead NVRAM chip. From
the FAQs I've read, it's
trivial to set the MAC address after the chip dies and it's set to
FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF.
It is even trivial to replace the dead battery inside the
chip, if you
know where and how to open it...
Providing I use the Sun "standard" of
08:00:20 as the
first three bytes of the MAC address, is there any real issue with me
choosing a random value for the last three bytes?
Just use random bytes. That is
what I did. But of course be sure that
there is no other machine on your network with that value...
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
28 Aug
28 Aug
5:57 a.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
--- Bill Pechter <pechter(a)bg-tc-ppp1451.monmouth.com> wrote:
Has anyone ever decoded the Sun barcodes and system
serial numbers to
figure out what their scheme is on the original id's?
I don't know that anyone has ever tried. Obviously, you'd need a
large enough sample set of ones that _haven't_ died. Probably tricky
by now. I suppose if you could match up original MAC addresses with
bar bodes via system logs, you could garner a few examples, but by and
large, they are so old that I'd be surprised if any still held a charge
on their own.
Why they won't make that available is beyond me.
Why, when they can sell you a replacement NVRAM pre-programmed for 3x or
more the cost of a factory-fresh one?
-ethan
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
6:48 p.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
their support staff doesn't even have access to that information, to get a
replacement you have to pay them the $ and give them the barcode off your
old one, I presume someone there has a lookup table to get the hostid.....
29 Aug
29 Aug
1:56 a.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
Do we know anyone who works at Sun and who has access to those tables?
Peace... Sridhar
On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Geoff Reed wrote:
their support staff doesn't even have access to
that information, to get a
replacement you have to pay them the $ and give them the barcode off your
old one, I presume someone there has a lookup table to get the hostid.....
2:39 a.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
Of course you'd have to pay them: they have to take a # from
from their database, update their mfg systems, mail you
a
MAC address label...it's a service ans you should expect to pay!
IEEE charges about 3KU$ for a range of MAC addresses and entry.
Why not just buy a cheap machine from someone close to you
for 5 bucks, use the MAC address from it and get it over with ?
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1267453464
Anyone can look up OUI mac address vendors codes
online http://standards.ieee.org/regauth/oui/oui.txt
Or, if it's on your own network - use 00-00-7D and make up the rest!
00-00-7D (hex) SUN MICROSYSTEMS, INC.
00007D (base 16) SUN MICROSYSTEMS, INC.
9480 CARROLL PARK DRIVE
SAN DIEGO CA 92121
cheers,
Heinz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Absurdly Obtuse" <vance(a)ikickass.org>
To: "Geoff Reed" <geoffr(a)zipcon.net>
Cc: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2001 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
Do we know anyone who works at Sun and who has access to those tables?
Peace... Sridhar
On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Geoff Reed wrote:
> their support staff doesn't even have access to that information, to get
a
> replacement you have to pay them the $ and give
them the barcode off
your
> old one, I presume someone there has a lookup
table to get the
hostid.....
3:34 a.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
Well, the whole point is that he wanted to get the *original* MAC for the
machine.
Peace... Sridhar
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote:
Why not just buy a cheap machine from someone close to
you
for 5 bucks, use the MAC address from it and get it over with ?
4:39 a.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
Yep. However, it's not that big of a deal. I did get the new NVRAM chip
yesterday and just set the MAC address to what I wanted. It's too much of
a pain to get the real address. :)
I do appricate the info that's been given though!
g.
Well, the whole point is that he wanted to get the *original* MAC for the
machine.
Peace... Sridhar
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Heinz Wolter wrote:
Why not just buy a cheap machine from someone
close to you
for 5 bucks, use the MAC address from it and get it over with ?
7:10 a.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
At 10:39 AM 8/29/01 -0400, you wrote:
Of course you'd have to pay them: they have to take
a # from
from their database, update their mfg systems, mail you a
MAC address label...it's a service ans you should expect to pay!
IEEE charges about 3KU$ for a range of MAC addresses and entry.
Hmmm, could it be because they should have coded the HostID into something
OTHER than a NVRAM that they knew would lose it's battery
eventually??? it's just a method to make a few extra bucks to them.
Of course there's also the fact that Sun is using a location in the NVRAM
that is not in the manufacturers spec so if you get a current rev 48tXX
chip to use in your sun, the OBP(bios) complains about a bad NVRAM chip
:(:(:( ST Microelectronics recently redid the timekeeper chips using a
smaller die, and in doing so, recoded them to operate exactly to what the
published spec has always said.. Sun uses a non-documented location in the
nvram for some of it's power-on tests so that now fails with the
timekeepers that are 100% specification compliant.
10:02 a.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
Geoff, if you go to http://www.memoryx.com you can get a replacement chip
for $19. That's where I got mine and it works great.
g.
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Geoff Reed wrote:
At 10:39 AM 8/29/01 -0400, you wrote:
Of course you'd have to pay them: they have to
take a # from
from their database, update their mfg systems, mail you a
MAC address label...it's a service ans you should expect to pay!
IEEE charges about 3KU$ for a range of MAC addresses and entry.
Hmmm, could it be because they should have coded the HostID into something
OTHER than a NVRAM that they knew would lose it's battery
eventually??? it's just a method to make a few extra bucks to them.
Of course there's also the fact that Sun is using a location in the NVRAM
that is not in the manufacturers spec so if you get a current rev 48tXX
chip to use in your sun, the OBP(bios) complains about a bad NVRAM chip
:(:(:( ST Microelectronics recently redid the timekeeper chips using a
smaller die, and in doing so, recoded them to operate exactly to what the
published spec has always said.. Sun uses a non-documented location in the
nvram for some of it's power-on tests so that now fails with the
timekeepers that are 100% specification compliant.
6:29 p.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
I have a supply of the ones that work "just in case" plus as I get ones
that die I am refitting them with a replaceable battery :) so they should
last a good long time :) it just kinda frosted me that Sun cut corners and
used non-documented addresses/registers in the timekeepers, and now the new
ones fail, and sun has absolutely NO plans to fix their bios/OBP, for any
of their machines (including those that are still supported) :(
At 03:02 PM 8/29/01 -0700, you wrote:
Geoff, if you go to http://www.memoryx.com you can get
a replacement chip
for $19. That's where I got mine and it works great.
30 Aug
30 Aug
2:04 a.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
I have a supply of the ones that work "just in
case" plus as I get ones
that die I am refitting them with a replaceable battery :) so they should
last a good long time :) it just kinda frosted me that Sun cut corners and
used non-documented addresses/registers in the timekeepers, and now the new
ones fail, and sun has absolutely NO plans to fix their bios/OBP, for any
of their machines (including those that are still supported) :(
Well you figure for EOL hardware, Sun has no reason to fix the
problem. It very well may have been a newbie engineer mistake that wasn't
caught in time. The end result is that it's not worth it to them to fix
the error. I would be surprised if they didn't eventually fix it for new
design hardware.
I finally got the SS1 booted up last night. This lead to two very
important discoveries. The installed drive is only 200MB and the bad
tracks far outnumber the good ones. :)
g.
3:13 a.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
Well you figure for EOL hardware, Sun has no reason to
fix the
problem. It very well may have been a newbie engineer mistake that wasn't
caught in time. The end result is that it's not worth it to them to fix
the error. I would be surprised if they didn't eventually fix it for new
design hardware.
Just for the record, when I found out about the NVRAM in an SS1 (which I
did when my new kernel left the NVRAM writable and over wrote it leaving my
SPARCStation dead) I flamed Andy Bechtolsheim (the guy who designed it,
founder of Sun, etc, etc) pretty toastily (I was workign at Sun at the
time). And his response was simply that it didn't merit being in EEPROM or
even PROM. You see the boot firmware wanted to store some bits in NVRAM and
as long as you have it, and the firmware guys don't need all of it, why go
to the trouble of adding yet another chip, decoder, etc to put more
non-volatile memory on the mainboard? So here we are.
--Chuck
9:59 a.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
At 07:04 AM 8/30/01 -0700, you wrote:
Well you figure for EOL hardware, Sun has no reason to
fix the
problem. It very well may have been a newbie engineer mistake that wasn't
caught in time. The end result is that it's not worth it to them to fix
the error. I would be surprised if they didn't eventually fix it for new
design hardware.
True, but for currently supported hardware I'd expect them to make an
effort to fix the problem *Sigh* but i'm just silly that way i guess :)
I finally got the SS1 booted up last night. This lead
to two very
important discoveries. The installed drive is only 200MB and the bad
tracks far outnumber the good ones. :)
Congrats :) the SS1 can take any 50-pin 3.5" scsi drive. Do youi want
another 200 MB drive? I probably have 1 or 2 laying around here that were
good the last time i fired them up, and they should also have sunos 4.1.4
on them (solaris 1.1.2) you could have them for shipping costs.
10:52 a.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
I finally got
the SS1 booted up last night. This lead to two very
important discoveries. The installed drive is only 200MB and the bad
tracks far outnumber the good ones. :)
Congrats :) the SS1 can take any 50-pin 3.5" scsi drive. Do youi want
another 200 MB drive? I probably have 1 or 2 laying around here that were
good the last time i fired them up, and they should also have sunos 4.1.4
on them (solaris 1.1.2) you could have them for shipping costs.
4:58 p.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
the SS1 has built in ethernet, you just need a AUI-TP convertor.
At 03:52 PM 8/30/01 -0700, you wrote:
Thanks for the offer. However, I've got 3 SS10s coming next week and
they've got 2 drives in each of them. I'll just pick a drive out of them
to use in the SS1. I can't really put the SS1 to use yet since I haven't
nailed down an sbus ethernet card for it.
g.
I finally got the SS1 booted up last night. This lead
to two very
important discoveries. The installed drive is only 200MB and the bad
tracks far outnumber the good ones. :)
Congrats :) the SS1 can take any 50-pin 3.5" scsi drive. Do youi want
another 200 MB drive? I probably have 1 or 2 laying around here that were
good the last time i fired them up, and they should also have sunos 4.1.4
on them (solaris 1.1.2) you could have them for shipping costs.
22 Aug
22 Aug
11:46 a.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
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23 Aug
23 Aug
2:50 a.m.
New subject: SS1 ethernet MAC address...
If you do have other Suns, then make sure the last 3
bytes are different
on all your machines.
I do plan on getting more. It's why I DO want to keep the first three as
the Sun standard.
Of course if you're planning to sell this machine
to somebody else, who
might use it on a network with other Suns, or if you're going to link it
to somebody else's ethernet (company, university), then you need to take
rather more care.
The machine is going to be used as a firewall at my house, so that
shouldn't be a problem. :)
g.
22 Aug
22 Aug
11:02 a.m.
New subject: Solution to OT messages (was: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST)
Observe how he manages to surreptitiously slip in more off-topic rantings
while disguising it with a solution to his own very off-topic rantings.
We have an idiot savant on our hands here.
On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, R. D. Davis wrote:
On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Lawrence Walker wrote:
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
Well I must admit to finding some hilarious
moments in this current thread
and am against imposing on Jay the onerous and unthankfull job of
censorship of non-commercial OT threads, I must also agree that these OT
messages do compromise the integrity of the list. Anyone who has tried
Since I got this latest off-topic mess started by commenting on how
Bush helped Clinton ruin the economy, and, in particular, hurt workers
in the computer field, for whom jobs are really drying up in some
areas, I'll help to fix the OT problem: I'll start a classiccmp-ot
mailing list, unless anyone else wants to.
Of course, giving this more thought, it's all those people who
listened to Bush about the economy being bad, and cut spending and
hiring as a result, who deserve as much blame. I guess one could call
it the Chicken Little syndrome, only something really did begin to
fall eventually.
Anyway, this way, anyone who wants to view off-topic postings can
simply reply to classiccmp-ot with anything off-topic resulting from
replies to the classiccmp list. How's that sound? Then, Jay can just
delete, or divert to classiccmp-ot, any OT messages that slip through
to that list, and everyone can be spared unwanted OT messages.
--
Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
12:48 p.m.
New subject: Solution to OT messages (was: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST)
Observe how he manages to surreptitiously slip in more
off-topic rantings while disguising it with a solution to his
own very off-topic rantings.
I will (observe) some time after I see that Sellam has learned
to stop swearing.
John A.
4:23 p.m.
New subject: Solution to OT messages (was: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST)
On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote:
We have an idiot savant on our hands here.
Sellam, your attempts, such as the aforementioned quote, to brag and
bring more attention to yourself again, by publicizing such attrocious
things about yourself, do not speak well for you. Why do you persist
in perpetuating the off-topic posting?
--
Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
21 Aug
21 Aug
6:07 a.m.
At 09:24 AM 8/21/01 -0700, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Some sort of moderation IS required for off-topic
posts. The off-topic
messages in the past year and a half have been so grossly off-topic as to
make moderation easy. An occasional rant or short-lived series is just
fine, but when a discussion on guns or carbeurators stretches on for
WEEKS, that's just too much.
The list is full of self-appointed and voluble experts on very obscure
topics. You're happy when they're comparing the length and girth
and texture of their big manly obsolete computer collection, but
you're surprised when they drift off-topic and wax expert on other topics?
I think the core of the problem is that, given off-topic topic X,
this list tends to have a significant minority who cheerfully
chime in about their experience in that non-CCC field. There's
always going to be a fraction who are happy to go off-topic.
Moderation will eventually piss off the bulk of the list,
particularly if they think it's heavy-handed or inept.
It's a thankless job.
I say, if an off-topic thread hits four messages, all
subsequent messages
are shit-canned, and the offending party warned. That should allow enough
flexibility for people to let off some steam and then get back on topic.
I'm in front of my computer a lot. Like most of the day. I'll be happy
to take on the first shift of a TEMPORARY moderator. It's an unpopular
job, I know, but I've never been one to shy away from controversy.
How did we shift from "weeks" to four posts that might've taken
minutes to arrive?
Pre-approving posts will lead to other accusations. Offers for
free cool equipment are sometimes fulfilled in minutes here...
and now the moderators get first pick.
I've seen good moderators in my day. They had a very light hand on
the reins. None of them succeeded in reforming the unwashed by
repeatedly screaming "ASSSSSSSSS!" even if the heathen deserved it.
You have considered that the offenders intended to drag a stick
across your cage just to see what happened, right?
- John
6:04 a.m.
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, John Foust wrote:
I was speaking of threads that go on for weeks, with many messages a day.
If an off-topic thread consisting of four messages gets posted over the
course of a week, I don't think people will care a whole lot. If four
messages of an off-topic thread come in within minutes, that's the start
of a thread that should be shit-canned.
The list is full of self-appointed and voluble experts
on very obscure
topics. You're happy when they're comparing the length and girth and
texture of their big manly obsolete computer collection, but you're
surprised when they drift off-topic and wax expert on other topics?
No, but I am irked, as are many other folks, when they go on and on about
senseless shit that doesn't belong on this list, or any list for that
matter (i.e. R.D.'s political vomit).
I think the core of the problem is that, given
off-topic topic X, this
list tends to have a significant minority who cheerfully chime in
about their experience in that non-CCC field. There's always going to
be a fraction who are happy to go off-topic. Moderation will
eventually piss off the bulk of the list, particularly if they think
it's heavy-handed or inept. It's a thankless job.
Oh fucking well.
I say, if an
off-topic thread hits four messages, all subsequent messages
are shit-canned, and the offending party warned. That should allow enough
flexibility for people to let off some steam and then get back on topic.
I'm in front of my computer a lot. Like most of the day. I'll be happy
to take on the first shift of a TEMPORARY moderator. It's an unpopular
job, I know, but I've never been one to shy away from controversy.
How did we shift from "weeks" to four posts that might've taken
minutes to arrive? Pre-approving posts will lead to other accusations.
Offers for free
cool equipment are sometimes fulfilled in minutes here... and now the
moderators get first pick.
That's a highly bogus concern.
I've seen good moderators in my day. They had a
very light hand on
the reins. None of them succeeded in reforming the unwashed by
repeatedly screaming "ASSSSSSSSS!" even if the heathen deserved it.
You know what? You're an ASS too.
You have considered that the offenders intended to
drag a stick across
your cage just to see what happened, right?
I'm not that cynical. I'm sorry you are.
Oops, almost forgot...
:)
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
5:14 a.m.
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Jay West wrote:
Ok folks, I've about had it with the off topic
stuff as of late, including
but not limited to the current "political" discussion. This also applies to
Hmmm... interesting how criticizing the Cheif Politicrat of the U.S.
triggered this. Surely a highy unlilely thing to happen, but I'll ask
anyway: did g. dubya bushbooger's SS troopers get to someone and
demand that we stop criticizing the pugnacious little prat?
Fortunately I don't have a soundcard in this system so I can't hear
"Hail to the Twit" being played... Dang, I thought algore was the one
who wanted censorship; apparently they're both controlled by the same
puppetmasters.
However, I'm inclined to agree with you that we stick more to the
discussion of classic computers for the sake of our overflowing
mailboxes. :-)
some of the "flame wars" that happened a
month or so ago which I received
several complaints and "requests for action" about, as well as the long
discussion of caurberators for god's sake.
However, that discussion did result in a discussion of engines controlled
by classic computers. :-)
--
Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
4:34 a.m.
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, R. D. Davis wrote:
Hmmm... interesting how criticizing the Cheif
Politicrat of the U.S.
triggered this. Surely a highy unlilely thing to happen, but I'll ask
anyway: did g. dubya bushbooger's SS troopers get to someone and
demand that we stop criticizing the pugnacious little prat?
Fortunately I don't have a soundcard in this system so I can't hear
"Hail to the Twit" being played... Dang, I thought algore was the one
who wanted censorship; apparently they're both controlled by the same
puppetmasters.
Look, R.D. You are the exact type of fellow I was thinking about the
other day when I talked about socially retarded people. You, as much as I
have been trying to keep myself from saying all this time, are incredibly,
indelibly, without a doubt and with a mandate from GOD himself, a SOCIALLY
RETARDED individual. You have NO fucking manners whatsoever, you take
EVERY opportunity to foist your pointless and tasteless opinions on
everyone else here, with little regard for OUR preferences, showing
absolute disrespect to everyone here. You are a SAD, SAD individual. I'm
sorry you didn't get that pony you always wanted, but we should NOT be
held prisoner by your horrid personality. You are an ASS. An ASSSSSSSSS!
However, I'm inclined to agree with you that we
stick more to the
discussion of classic computers for the sake of our overflowing
mailboxes. :-)
Oh, do you REALLY THINK SO? After you went ahead and insisted on carrying
on with your assanine political diatribe, as if this last statement will
somehow absolve you of your pitiful indisrection? You are an ASSSS!! I
wish I could change the font to a 128 pointsize so I could write "ASS" in
letters big enough to express how I feel about you.
YOU ARE AN ASS!!!!!!
However, that discussion did result in a discussion of
engines
controlled by classic computers. :-)
YOU ARE AN ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
5:44 a.m.
[He's a donkey?]
Can we please not degenerate to insults?
Maybe I do need to stop deleting all the messages that don't pertain to me and
start reading them...
-------
7:54 a.m.
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Sellam Ismail wrote:
Incoherent thoughts and memory failure are not a good sign...
--
Copyright (C) 2001 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals:
All Rights Reserved an unnatural belief that we're above Nature &
rdd(a)rddavis.net 410-744-4900 her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.net beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.
Look, R.D. You are the exact type of fellow I was
thinking about the
other day when I talked about socially retarded people. You, as much as I
Now see here Sellam, attempting to put others into that category which,
in my opinion, you appear to fall into, solves nothing.
have been trying to keep myself from saying all this
time, are incredibly,
indelibly, without a doubt and with a mandate from GOD himself, a SOCIALLY
RETARDED individual. You have NO fucking manners whatsoever, you take
It behooves you not, in my opinion, to keep describing yourself in a
loosing attempt to describe others.
EVERY opportunity to foist your pointless and
tasteless opinions on
everyone else here, with little regard for OUR preferences, showing
absolute disrespect to everyone here. You are a SAD, SAD individual. I'm
[Wow, the poor chap just can't tolerate some differing opinions.]
sorry you didn't get that pony you always wanted,
but we should NOT be
Now tell us Sellam, did you make that statement because your childhood
was lacking something, such as a pony, that you always wanted?
held prisoner by your horrid personality. You are an
ASS. An ASSSSSSSSS!
It was kind of you to compare me to a donkey rather than comparing me
to something such as yourself. :-) Also, you might want to do
something about that sticking 's' key on your keyboard.
[...]
wish I could change the font to a 128 pointsize so I
could write "ASS" in
letters big enough to express how I feel about you.
Sellam, I'm concerned about you. You really need to do something to control
that anger before if causes you physical harm, such as causing you to have
a stroke. Have you checked your blood pressure lately?
YOU ARE AN ASS!!!!!!
Sellam, I believe you said that once, don't you remember?
However, that
discussion did result in a discussion of engines
controlled by classic computers. :-)
YOU ARE AN ASS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
8:15 a.m.
R. D. Davis said:
Wow... we've reached the "I know you are but what am I" level of retort.
I
think most people outgrew that in the 2nd or 3rd grade.
have been
trying to keep myself from saying all this time, are incredibly,
indelibly, without a doubt and with a mandate from GOD himself, a SOCIALLY
RETARDED individual. You have NO fucking manners whatsoever, you take
It behooves you not, in my opinion, to keep describing yourself in a
loosing attempt to describe others.
[Wow, the poor chap just can't tolerate some
differing opinions.]
I don't see it that way. RD, as a relatively new list member, I can't help
but agree with Sellam, though my feelings may not be quite as...er...strong as
his. If you can justify how semi-incoherent rantings about the president
BELONG on this list and are ON-TOPIC -- and do so in such a way that you
convince even 5 people here -- then all the more power to you. If you can't
do so, then you're behaving, well, like an ass, and I think it would be
appreciated it you took rants to a more appropriate forum.
And just for the record...I agree with your opinions about the president, so
don't go accusing me of not being able to "tolerate some differing
opinions."
I just have the maturity to realize that this isn't the place for it, and I
frankly don't want to hear about it when I look at this mailbox in order to
read about classic computers.
- Dan Wright
(dtwright(a)uiuc.edu)
(http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright)
-] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [-
``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.''
Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan
10:21 a.m.
This was brought on by the "should-have-been-deleted-before-sending" expletive
referring to copulation, normally used only by persons with an IQ of room
temperature or less, however. Language like that baits a flame ... Who's to
blame, well, I don't know.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Wright" <dtwright(a)uiuc.edu>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 2:15 PM
Subject: Re: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST (re: recent political commentary)
R. D. Davis said:
Wow... we've reached the "I know you are but what am I" level of retort.
I
think most people outgrew that in the 2nd or 3rd grade.
have been
trying to keep myself from saying all this time, are incredibly,
indelibly, without a doubt and with a mandate from GOD himself, a SOCIALLY
RETARDED individual. You have NO fucking manners whatsoever, you take
It behooves you not, in my opinion, to keep describing yourself in a
loosing attempt to describe others.
[Wow, the poor chap just can't tolerate some
differing opinions.]
I don't see it that way. RD, as a relatively new list member, I can't help
but agree with Sellam, though my feelings may not be quite as...er...strong as
his. If you can justify how semi-incoherent rantings about the president
BELONG on this list and are ON-TOPIC -- and do so in such a way that you
convince even 5 people here -- then all the more power to you. If you can't
do so, then you're behaving, well, like an ass, and I think it would be
appreciated it you took rants to a more appropriate forum.
And just for the record...I agree with your opinions about the president, so
don't go accusing me of not being able to "tolerate some differing
opinions."
I just have the maturity to realize that this isn't the place for it, and I
frankly don't want to hear about it when I look at this mailbox in order to
read about classic computers.
- Dan Wright
(dtwright(a)uiuc.edu)
(http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright)
-] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [-
``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.''
Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan
8:27 a.m.
held prisoner
by your horrid personality. You are an ASS. An ASSSSSSSSS!
It was kind of you to compare me to a donkey rather than comparing me
to something such as yourself. :-) Also, you might want to do
something about that sticking 's' key on your keyboard.
8:28 a.m.
New subject: Sun cdrom drive ...
I'm in need of a Sun compatible CD-ROM drive with an external
enclosure. I need it for a SPARCStation 1. If you've got one you can
part with, please contact me off list.
Thanks!
g.
--
http://www.f15sim.com
9:33 a.m.
New subject: Sun cdrom drive ...
Unfortunatly, I don't have a spare, but FYI any cdrom drive that supports a
512-byte block size (either jumperable or when requested by the host system)
will boot Suns and let you install SunOS/Solaris. Older NECs (maybe newer
ones too, I haven't used any) and Plextor drives of any vintage work great for
this.
Gene Buckle said:
I'm in need of a Sun compatible CD-ROM drive with
an external
enclosure. I need it for a SPARCStation 1. If you've got one you can
part with, please contact me off list.
Thanks!
g.
--
http://www.f15sim.com
- Dan Wright
(dtwright(a)uiuc.edu)
(http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright)
-] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [-
``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.''
Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan
10:24 a.m.
New subject: Sun cdrom drive ...
Unfortunatly, I don't have a spare, but FYI any
cdrom drive that supports a
512-byte block size (either jumperable or when requested by the host system)
will boot Suns and let you install SunOS/Solaris. Older NECs (maybe newer
ones too, I haven't used any) and Plextor drives of any vintage work great for
this.
Thanks for the info Dan. One of the list members made me a VERY good
offer on a sun drive in a 411 box so I'm going after that. :) I still
need to pick up a 10BaseT SBUS board as well as a cheap framebuffer and a
Sun -> PC display & mouse/keyboard adaptor so I can use my existing KVM.
After I've got the SS1 set up the way I need it (firewall), I think I'm
going to get a SS10 machine I can load up with RAM & CPU and use that for
other misc. amusements.
Tnx!
g.
22 Aug
22 Aug
11:43 a.m.
New subject: Sun cdrom drive ...
Gene Buckle skrev:
After I've got the SS1 set up the way I need it
(firewall), I think I'm
going to get a SS10 machine I can load up with RAM & CPU and use that for
other misc. amusements.
Why would a firewall need a framebuffer, mouse and keyboard? Or a CD for that
matter...
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
23 Aug
23 Aug
2:52 a.m.
New subject: Sun cdrom drive ...
After I've
got the SS1 set up the way I need it (firewall), I think I'm
going to get a SS10 machine I can load up with RAM & CPU and use that for
other misc. amusements.
Why would a firewall need a framebuffer, mouse and keyboard? Or a CD for that
matter...
22 Aug
22 Aug
1:13 p.m.
New subject: Sun cdrom drive ...
At 03:24 PM 8/21/2001 -0700, you wrote:
Thanks for the info Dan. One of the list members made
me a VERY good
offer on a sun drive in a 411 box so I'm going after that. :) I still
need to pick up a 10BaseT SBUS board as well as a cheap framebuffer and a
Sun -> PC display & mouse/keyboard adaptor so I can use my existing KVM.
You could set it up pretty nicely without all that; you can
install NetBSD (at least) from a boot floppy, use a serial console to get
it installed and then just telnet/ssh to it in the future. No keyboard, no
mouse, no framebuffer, no CDROM.
23 Aug
23 Aug
2:56 a.m.
New subject: Sun cdrom drive ...
Thanks for the
info Dan. One of the list members made me a VERY good
offer on a sun drive in a 411 box so I'm going after that. :) I still
need to pick up a 10BaseT SBUS board as well as a cheap framebuffer and a
Sun -> PC display & mouse/keyboard adaptor so I can use my existing KVM.
You could set it up pretty nicely without all that; you can
install NetBSD (at least) from a boot floppy, use a serial console to get
it installed and then just telnet/ssh to it in the future. No keyboard, no
mouse, no framebuffer, no CDROM.
22 Aug
22 Aug
11:42 a.m.
New subject: Sun cdrom drive ...
Dan Wright skrev:
Unfortunatly, I don't have a spare, but FYI any
cdrom drive that supports a
512-byte block size (either jumperable or when requested by the host system)
will boot Suns and let you install SunOS/Solaris. Older NECs (maybe newer
ones too, I haven't used any) and Plextor drives of any vintage work great
for this.
And SCSI Compaqs might, too.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
Hackers do it with fewer instructions.
1:24 p.m.
New subject: Sun cdrom drive ...
I'm interested in the answer to this too.
So I found this.
Open:
Sun compatible CD-ROM drives
http://www.ebsinc.com/solaris/suncds.htm
or Open:
FAQ: CD-ROM Drives on Sun Hardware
http://www.aball.de/~wpv/sun/faq/cdrom.html
Then go to:
Q4) What drives have been shown to work?
Doth the people knowest iff a Sun CDROM FAQ
is a sufficient matching list for DEC (it says it's 512
byte block too)? Me gots ta get one a dem.
John A.
excuse my language
Unfortunatly, I don't have a spare, but FYI any
cdrom drive that supports a
512-byte block size (either jumperable or when requested by the host
system)
will boot Suns...
23 Aug
23 Aug
12:07 a.m.
New subject: Sun cdrom drive ...
I'm interested in the answer to this too.
So I found this.
Open:
Sun compatible CD-ROM drives
http://www.ebsinc.com/solaris/suncds.htm
or Open:
FAQ: CD-ROM Drives on Sun Hardware
http://www.aball.de/~wpv/sun/faq/cdrom.html
Then go to:
Q4) What drives have been shown to work?
Doth the people knowest iff a Sun CDROM FAQ
is a sufficient matching list for DEC (it says it's 512
byte block too)? Me gots ta get one a dem.
John A.
excuse my language
Sure should work... I use the same ones on both my Vax system and
Sparcs.
Bill
--
Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a
villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller
bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.dyndns.org
22 Aug
22 Aug
6:43 p.m.
New subject: Sun cdrom drive ...
Many SCSI Toshibas can be set to0 512 byte blocks by cutting 2 traces on
the back of the drive.
I fyou are looking for a bare drive that is sun compatible, email me, I
should have some spare full-high cdrom drives that came out of Ross
Hyperstation's....
23 Aug
23 Aug
1:20 a.m.
New subject: Sun cdrom drive ...
On Wed, 22 Aug 2001, geoffr wrote:
Many SCSI Toshibas can be set to0 512 byte blocks by
cutting 2 traces on
the back of the drive.
I use Toshiba's on my VAXex all the time and have never had to modify
one.
bill
--
Bill Gunshannon | de-moc-ra-cy (di mok' ra see) n. Three wolves
bill(a)cs.scranton.edu | and a sheep voting on what's for dinner.
University of Scranton |
Scranton, Pennsylvania | #include <std.disclaimer.h>
21 Aug
21 Aug
5:49 a.m.
At 01:14 pm 21/08/2001 -0400, R. D. Davis wrote:
<snip>
As a Brit, I honestly couldn't care less about "Dubya" - or indeed the
whole US political system. I don't really care too much for ours either.
However, I'm inclined to agree with you that we
stick more to the
discussion of classic computers for the sake of our overflowing
mailboxes. :-)
Yes please!
In order to stimulate conversation: Does anyone have a Commodore 8032
mainboard in known working condition that they'd be willing to part with?
I've recently acquired an 8032-SK, but the CPU is dead, two ROMs are
missing, and even adding known working replacements is not enough to breath
life back into this poor wee beastie. So it's got to be a heart/lung/brain
transplant for it - for now, at least.
However, that discussion did result in a discussion of engines controlled
by classic computers. :-)
Hmm.
It's still possible to buy new Z80 CPUs (?2.50 in the UK); how many would
it take to build a pentium-IV class machine? :)
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
6:27 a.m.
New subject: MPP Possibility (Was: Notice)
On Tue, 21 Aug 2001, Adrian Vickers wrote:
It's still possible to buy new Z80 CPUs (£2.50 in
the UK); how many would
it take to build a pentium-IV class machine? :)
Cheers!
Ade.
This leads to one mind-boggling possibility. If one etches custom boards
with eight Z80s each, and pumps all eight each clock, and one takes
several thousand of these boards, wouldn't that be a rather interesting
MPP supercomputer? Would it be more or less money than one made with,
say, IBM POWER4s, or Alphas, or StrongARMs?
Peace... Sridhar
7:03 a.m.
New subject: MPP Possibility (Was: Notice)
This leads to one mind-boggling possibility. If one
etches custom boards
with eight Z80s each, and pumps all eight each clock, and one takes
several thousand of these boards, wouldn't that be a rather interesting
MPP supercomputer? Would it be more or less money than one made with,
say, IBM POWER4s, or Alphas, or StrongARMs?
The University Of Maryland had something called ZMOB or
Z-MOB in the early 1980s, which (if memory serves) was
256 4MHz Z80s, several Megs of bank-switched memory, etc.
I never got to actually play with it or even see it,
only heard about it. Frank McConnell may know more.
6:30 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
In order to stimulate conversation: Does anyone have a
Commodore 8032
mainboard in known working condition that they'd be willing to part with?
I've recently acquired an 8032-SK, but the CPU is dead, two ROMs are
missing, and even adding known working replacements is not enough to breath
life back into this poor wee beastie. So it's got to be a heart/lung/brain
transplant for it - for now, at least.
eBay actually has two:
One from Germany:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266289471
and one from the US:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266958681
Both still have very low prices...
Bryan
7:06 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
If the CPU's broken, surely you can get that ...
The ROM's are probably pin-compatible with some flavor of EPROM, and somebody,
somewhere, surely has the working ROM's ...
If you can locate that stuff, perhaps it will be easier to effect repairs than
to find the complete and functional heart/lung/brain, eh?
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Pope" <bpope(a)wordstock.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 12:30 PM
Subject: CBM 8032 SK
In order to
stimulate conversation: Does anyone have a Commodore 8032
mainboard in known working condition that they'd be willing to part with?
I've recently acquired an 8032-SK, but the CPU is dead, two ROMs are
missing, and even adding known working replacements is not enough to breath
life back into this poor wee beastie. So it's got to be a heart/lung/brain
transplant for it - for now, at least.
eBay actually has two:
One from Germany:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266289471
and one from the US:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266958681
Both still have very low prices...
Bryan
9:18 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
At 01:06 pm 21/08/2001 -0600, you wrote:
If the CPU's broken, surely you can get that ...
I expect Farnell carry it (that's where I got the Z80 prices from), but a
quick search on "6502" revealed nothing; but I only did it quickly, so may
have made a mistake.
The ROM's are probably pin-compatible with some
flavor of EPROM, and
somebody,
somewhere, surely has the working ROM's ...
Hmm, possibly. I suspect it's going to involve many hours of slaving over a
hot soldering iron, and TBH my soldering's just not that good. Besides,
Maplin seem to have mislaid my order for a bunch of soldering-related kit
(e.g. the desolderer), so no major surgery can take place yet :(
If you can locate that stuff, perhaps it will be easier
to effect repairs
than
to find the complete and functional heart/lung/brain,
eh?
Possibly. The trouble is - where can the problem lie? The machine is either
not starting up, or the beeper is dead (and without the screen, the beeper
is the only means of checking whether it works or not; well, maybe. I could
just plug in a diskdrive and try it...
Actually, I like the look of the German -SK; without a keyboard it should
have relatively low collectability value, so it's going to be spares
hunters like myself who will go for it. Anyway, even if I do end up
spending a bit too much, I should be able to farm out my duff one for a few
quid :) OTOH, I'll probably put it in storage in case anything else goes pop.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bryan Pope" <bpope(a)wordstock.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 12:30 PM
Subject: CBM 8032 SK
> > In order to stimulate conversation: Does anyone have a Commodore 8032
> > mainboard in known working condition that they'd be willing to part with?
> >
> > I've recently acquired an 8032-SK, but the CPU is dead, two ROMs are
> > missing, and even adding known working replacements is not enough to
breath
> > life back into this poor wee beastie. So
it's got to be a
heart/lung/brain
> > transplant for it - for now, at least.
>
> eBay actually has two:
>
> One from Germany:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266289471
>
> and one from the US:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266958681
>
> Both still have very low prices...
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
10:22 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
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8:47 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
At 11:22 pm 21/08/2001 +0100, you wrote:
Well, this is good practice, then :-)
True :) It does seem a shame to practice on such a rare piece of kit,
somehow...
Erm, a multimeter...
I'd have to buy a 'scope, and they're not cheap...
The latter, although according to the chap I got it from, it uesd to bleep
at power on, but with nothing on the screen. However, when I put the (now
known to be) dead CPU in my working 8032, the monitor failed to whistle
like it ususally does; so it's _possible_ the monitor will be OK.
Right, I shall go look up logic probes & think...
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
The ROM's are probably pin-compatible with some
flavor of EPROM, and
somebody,
somewhere, surely has the working ROM's ...
Hmm, possibly. I suspect it's going to involve many hours of slaving over a
hot soldering iron, and TBH my soldering's just not that good. Besides, Maplin seem to
have mislaid my order for a bunch of soldering-related kit
(e.g. the desolderer), so no major surgery can take place yet :(
What test equipment do you have? If you can locate that stuff, perhaps it will be
easier to effect repairs
than
to find the complete and functional
heart/lung/brain, eh?
Possibly. The trouble is - where can the problem lie? The machine is either Start by checking all the power rails (at the pins of
the chips) with a
voltmeter. Get the PSU working first.
Done & tested. Power is OK.
Then use a 'scope, logic probe or logic analyser
(yes, OK, I have
somewhat fancy test gear) to check the clock input to the 6502.
Actually, I used the voltmeter for that; it reads approx half the normal
input voltage, which *suggests* that its OK.
If
missing, fix the clock circuit. Check the reset pin while you're at it,
to ensure the machine is not stuck in the reset state. Without good
power, clock, and reset, the machine is not going to do a lot.
Reset is OK too, so theoretically (and assuming the clock really is
ticking, and not just stuck at a constant half voltage) the CPU is getting
what it'll need.
Then use the same instrument(s) to check the phi2 (bus clock output) of
the 6502. And look for activity on the address/data buses.
The clock outputs register lower voltages than the clock in (0.93v and
0.75v). However, that tells me pretty much bugger all, I will need some
better kit to really examine those.
When you've got this far, it's then time to see
just what ROM(s) are
being selected (logic probe, etc on the CS/ pins) and thus what the CPU
is doing. Unless, of course you have a logic analyser that can look at
all 16 address lines at once.
This is realms of the unknown for me - I shall have to go look up logic
probes/logic analysers... I assume the same sort of checks can be done with
most chips, e.g. RAM, ULAs and so forth.
not starting
up, or the beeper is dead (and without the screen, the beeper
Is there known to be a fault with the monitor, or do you just get nothing
on the screen. If the latter, the monitor might be fine and the fault due
to the mainboard never outputting video data (the CPU has to initialise
the 6845, etc for the monitor to display anything, so you need to debug
the CPU side first).
22 Aug
22 Aug
3:30 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
There are relatively inexpensive ($20 US) multimeters that can measure frequency
up into the tens of megahertz that would be helpful. If you are measuring a
clock, it will tell you right away whether it's right. It won't tell you much
if it's wrong, though. It does give you more information than just measuring
voltage.
Test equipment is expensive, but hardly anyone wants the "old" stuff that once
was perfectly adequate for precisely this class of equipment. A 'scope with two
probes, delayed sweep timebase, and a bandwidth in excess of 20 MHz (e.g. TEK
935) is probably adequate. If you shop around, you should have no trouble
finding a TEK 465 (100 MHz) that's quite complete and functional for somewhere
on the order of $250. Over time, these will become less available, however. My
old '465 is still the workhorse around my place, though I have faster, fancier
models.
As classic hardware ages, it's likely to break and you'll want to be able to fix
it, since the technology of the '70's and '80's renders this stuff
inherently
repairable.
It may be painful to learn, but it's very satisfying when you breathe life into
what was a "dear, departed" computer from yesteryear.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Vickers" <avickers(a)solutionengineers.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 2:47 AM
Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK
At 11:22 pm 21/08/2001 +0100, you wrote:
Well, this is good practice, then :-)
True :) It does seem a shame to practice on such a rare piece of kit,
somehow...
Erm, a multimeter...
I'd have to buy a 'scope, and they're not cheap...
The latter, although according to the chap I got it from, it uesd to bleep
at power on, but with nothing on the screen. However, when I put the (now
known to be) dead CPU in my working 8032, the monitor failed to whistle
like it ususally does; so it's _possible_ the monitor will be OK.
Right, I shall go look up logic probes & think...
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
The ROM's are probably pin-compatible with some
flavor of EPROM, and
somebody,
somewhere, surely has the working ROM's ...
Hmm, possibly. I suspect it's going to involve many hours of slaving over a
hot soldering iron, and TBH my soldering's just not that good. Besides, Maplin
seem to have mislaid my order for a bunch of soldering-related kit
(e.g. the desolderer), so no major surgery can take place yet :(
What test equipment do you have? If you can locate that stuff, perhaps it will be
easier to effect repairs
than
to find the complete and functional
heart/lung/brain, eh?
Possibly. The trouble is - where can the problem lie? The machine is either Start by checking all the power rails (at the pins
of the chips) with a
voltmeter. Get the PSU working first.
Done & tested. Power is OK.
Then use a 'scope, logic probe or logic
analyser (yes, OK, I have
somewhat fancy test gear) to check the clock input to the 6502.
Actually, I used the voltmeter for that; it reads approx half the normal
input voltage, which *suggests* that its OK.
If
missing, fix the clock circuit. Check the reset pin while you're at it,
to ensure the machine is not stuck in the reset state. Without good
power, clock, and reset, the machine is not going to do a lot.
Reset is OK too, so theoretically (and assuming the clock really is
ticking, and not just stuck at a constant half voltage) the CPU is getting
what it'll need.
Then use the same instrument(s) to check the phi2 (bus clock output) of
the 6502. And look for activity on the address/data buses.
The clock outputs register lower voltages than the clock in (0.93v and
0.75v). However, that tells me pretty much bugger all, I will need some
better kit to really examine those.
When you've got this far, it's then time
to see just what ROM(s) are
being selected (logic probe, etc on the CS/ pins) and thus what the CPU
is doing. Unless, of course you have a logic analyser that can look at
all 16 address lines at once.
This is realms of the unknown for me - I shall have to go look up logic
probes/logic analysers... I assume the same sort of checks can be done with
most chips, e.g. RAM, ULAs and so forth.
not
starting up, or the beeper is dead (and without the screen, the beeper
Is there known to be a fault with the monitor, or do you just get nothing
on the screen. If the latter, the monitor might be fine and the fault due
to the mainboard never outputting video data (the CPU has to initialise
the 6845, etc for the monitor to display anything, so you need to debug
the CPU side first).
7:24 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
At 09:30 am 22/08/2001 -0600, you wrote:
There are relatively inexpensive ($20 US) multimeters
that can measure
frequency
up into the tens of megahertz that would be helpful.
If you are measuring a
clock, it will tell you right away whether it's right. It won't tell you
much
if it's wrong, though. It does give you more
information than just measuring
voltage.
I just had a closer look at mine; I bought it from Halfords (translation
for Statesiders: an auto spares/tools store) and it's got various motor
related functions (an RPM reading and dwell angle measurement thingy), but
I notice it has a frequency reading (Hz, may be a bit oversensitive for
1-2MHz), pulse width (mS) and period (mS) readings. All of these may be
unsuitable for use on a high-speed computer, but I fancy giving them a
go... It can also measure Vac, which is useful for checking transformers...
Test equipment is expensive, but hardly anyone wants
the "old" stuff that
once
was perfectly adequate for precisely this class of
equipment. A 'scope
with two
probes, delayed sweep timebase, and a bandwidth in
excess of 20 MHz (e.g. TEK
935) is probably adequate. If you shop around, you should have no trouble
finding a TEK 465 (100 MHz) that's quite complete and functional for
somewhere
on the order of $250. Over time, these will become
less available,
however. My
old '465 is still the workhorse around my place,
though I have faster,
fancier
models.
This reminds me, a place I used to work at used HP oscilloscopes, c/w
IEEE-488 bus. I don't know if it'd be possible to use a CBM8032 hooked to
an oscilloscope to diagnose a faulty 8032; but it has a nice symmetry about
it :)
As classic hardware ages, it's likely to break and you'll want to be able
to
fix
it, since the technology of the '70's and
'80's renders this stuff inherently
repairable.
It may be painful to learn, but it's very satisfying when you breathe life
into
what was a "dear, departed" computer from
yesteryear.
Definitely. And with Z80s (in particular) being so cheap, as well as DRAM
chips, building ones own becomes quite appealing too. I know a chap who
already does that sort of thing (although I think he uses older Intel
processors on the whole); but I like the idea of a 40-pin processor - it's
nice and simple.
I haven't a clue how the bus works though....
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
11:03 a.m.
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12:47 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
At 12:03 am 23/08/2001 +0100, you wrote:
Back in a past life, I worked on a program (written by a very clever chap
with more PhD's than I've had hot dinners) which ran on a HP computer (I
forget the model) hooked to a HP 'scope (presumably by IEEE-488) - and
determined the location of flaws in 33KV electricity cables. I was tasked
with redesigning the front end to this program, which was written entirely
in HP BASIC(!)... It was fun, apart from the fact I spent 4 of the 6 weeks
I was doing this sat in a Faraday cage while experiments to do with HV went
on around me... Mind you, the other 2 weeks made up for it - on-site on a
biscuit factory testing cables :)
Me too. There's nothing quite like "hands-on" learning, much more
interesting than straight lectures or even student lab work.
You can: Amazon is my friend... It doesn't say which edition it is, but I
assume it's the newest one.
This reminds
me, a place I used to work at used HP oscilloscopes, c/w
IEEE-488 bus. I don't know if it'd be possible to use a CBM8032 hooked to
an oscilloscope to diagnose a faulty 8032; but it has a nice symmetry about
it :)
Sure, it's been done (well, using IEEE-488 controlled logic analysers
rather than 'scopes, and probably machines other than PETs). It is
certainly possible to have one computer control a logic analyser which
debugs another machine of the same type. >It may be painful to learn, but it's very
satisfying when you breathe life
Actually, FWIW, this is the sort of learning that I consider fun... into
Might I recomend the book 'The student manual for the Art of Electronics'
(or some similar title), 2nd edition, by Hayes and Horowitz. what was a "dear, departed" computer
from yesteryear.
Definitely. And with Z80s (in particular) being so cheap, as well as DRAM
chips, building ones own becomes quite appealing too. I know a chap who
already does that sort of thing (although I think he uses older Intel
processors on the whole); but I like the idea of a 40-pin processor - it's
nice and simple.
I haven't a clue how the bus works though.... The last few
sections get you to build a 68008-based computer from scratch.
A QL? :)
I can't
remember what chip the first edition used (8085? Z80?). The related book
'The Art of Electronics' is, of course, well worth reading as well...
I shall order that too, I think. There's also an "Art of Electronics:
Standard Manual", does anyone have any knowledge of that one?
Thanks! Any more book recommendations BTW?
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
1:13 p.m.
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9:11 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
At 02:13 am 23/08/2001 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
^^^^^
Don't you ever sleep? :)
This place is unusual... It used to be the sole R&D unit for the entire
Electricity industry, although since privatisation other places have
muscled in to some extent. As a company, they hold thousands of patents,
and to be an RO (research officer) you *have* to have a PhD; some people do
have more...
As someone without even a degree, I was something of an outsider, but then
it was the first job I ever had, and I think they paid me the princely sum
of ?10/week (travel expenses) for my troubles. It was mainly because I was
fresh out of University (failed), and my Dad pushed me into it. It was a
wise move though - I got my first proper paying job with a subcontractor
company who were working on-site, and I've never looked back.
Yes. As I said a few days ago it's important to have some idea as to what
you are doing (randomly changing things will help nobody), but you do
need some real practical experience.
Agreed. One thing is, last time I was seriously interested in electronics,
I could barely afford a soldering iron, let alone the components, test
gear, etc.
You can: Amazon is my friend... It doesn't say which edition it is, but I
assume it's the newest one.
The authors are different for the 2 editions (I think the first is
Horowitz and Robinson, but I am not going to run upstairs to check ;-)
(yes, I have both editions, and both editions of 'The Art of Electronics
:-))).
The picture on Amazon shows 2 authors, the listing shows 1 different..... A
mystery which will probably not be resolved until next week...
No, rather simpler than that. A 68008 + 256 bytes of RAM (IIRC) and a
hardware frontpanel (hex keyboard, which was supplied to students ready
made, but there is a schematic in the book) + TTL chips to load the RAM
independantly of the microprocessor.
I couldn't see any 68000-series chips in either Farnell or Maplin (mind
you, Maplin's IC section seems to have shrunk to a parody of its former
self); can you recommend a chip supplier with a decent catalogue?
NEver heard of it. I wonder if 'standard' is a misprint for 'student' :-(
I don't think so, but it's out of print anyway, so obviously not that
popular...
I find that public libraries can usually find stuff even Amazon can't;
maybe I should join one down here. I used to be a member at Chester, but
I'm fairly sure that's lapsed by now.
Back in a past
life, I worked on a program (written by a very clever chap
with more PhD's than I've had hot dinners) which ran on a HP computer (I
Since it's unusual to have more than 1 Ph.D. I guess it means you like
cold food :-) > >> >It may be painful to learn, but
it's very satisfying when you
breathe life
Actually, FWIW, this is the sort of learning that I consider fun...
Me too. There's nothing quite like "hands-on" learning, much more
interesting than straight lectures or even student lab work. > >> Definitely. And with Z80s (in particular)
being so cheap, as well as
DRAM
> >> chips, building ones own becomes quite
appealing too. I know a chap who
> >> already does that sort of thing (although I think he uses older Intel
> >> processors on the whole); but I like the idea of a 40-pin processor -
it's
nice and
simple.
I haven't a clue how the bus works though....
Might I recomend the book 'The student manual for the Art of Electronics'
(or some similar title), 2nd edition, by Hayes and Horowitz. The last few
sections get you to build a 68008-based computer from scratch.
A QL? :) I can't
remember what chip the first edition used (8085? Z80?). The related book
'The Art of Electronics' is, of course, well worth reading as well...
I shall order that too, I think. There's also an "Art of Electronics:
Standard Manual", does anyone have any knowledge of that one? Thanks! Any
more book recommendations BTW?
Sure... Mick&Brick 'Bit Slice Microprocessor Design' is a classic if
you're interested in microcoded CPU internals. It's not that easy to
find, though (well, I don't buy things on the internet, so it might be
easy to get there, I've never looked). You also should start collecting data books (or data
sheets) on all the
chips you might be interested in. You'll need them for the CPU, any
peripheral chips you like, and so on. And of course a TTL databook is
essential (don't rely on things like the Maplin Catalogue, there are
plenty of chips not listed in there).
There has to be a Semiconductor Bible out there - any ideas?
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
23 Aug
23 Aug
8:58 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
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1:21 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
Actually, it's not as unusual as you may think. Some folks don't know how to do
anything useful, so they get more advanced degrees instead. I know of several
folks who have multiple PhD's, not that it increases my respect for them, but it
does indicate they've completed a major piece of academic work with a minimum of
supervision.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2001 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK
life
Yes. As I said a few days ago it's important to have some idea as to what
you are doing (randomly changing things will help nobody), but you do
need some real practical experience.
> >> Definitely. And with Z80s (in particular) being so cheap, as well as DRAM
> >> chips, building ones own becomes quite appealing too. I know a chap who
> >> already does that sort of thing (although I think he uses older Intel
> >> processors on the whole); but I like the idea of a 40-pin processor -
it's
You can: Amazon is my friend... It doesn't say which edition it is, but I
assume it's the newest one.
The authors are different for the 2 editions (I think the first is
Horowitz and Robinson, but I am not going to run upstairs to check ;-)
(yes, I have both editions, and both editions of 'The Art of Electronics
:-))).
No, rather simpler than that. A 68008 + 256 bytes of RAM (IIRC) and a
hardware frontpanel (hex keyboard, which was supplied to students ready
made, but there is a schematic in the book) + TTL chips to load the RAM
independantly of the microprocessor.
NEver heard of it. I wonder if 'standard' is a misprint for 'student'
:-(
It reminds me of the time I ordered the Options and Adapters Technical
Reference from IBM. I asked them to search for 'Options and Adapters' and
they told be there was no such manual listed. I thought it might well be
out of print and unavailable, but as I had the Form Number to hand, I
asked them to look for that. They told me that such a manual was still
available (at a rather high price) and that it was the Technical
Reference Questions and Answers. I ordered it anyway, and needless to say
it was the Options and Adapters manual.
What seems to have happened is that :
Options and Adapters was abreviated to O&A
O&A was typo'd to Q&A
Q&A was expanded to Questions and Answers
(!)
Back in a past
life, I worked on a program (written by a very clever chap
with more PhD's than I've had hot dinners) which ran on a HP computer (I
Since it's unusual to have more than 1 Ph.D. I guess it means you like
cold food :-)
> >> >It may be painful to learn, but it's very satisfying when you
breathe
Actually, FWIW, this is the sort of learning that I consider fun...
Me too. There's nothing quite like "hands-on" learning, much more
interesting than straight lectures or even student lab work. nice and
simple.
I haven't a clue how the bus works though....
Might I recomend the book 'The student manual for the Art of Electronics'
(or some similar title), 2nd edition, by Hayes and Horowitz. The last few
sections get you to build a 68008-based computer from scratch.
A QL? :) I
can't
remember what chip the first edition used (8085? Z80?). The related book
'The Art of Electronics' is, of course, well worth reading as well...
I shall order that too, I think. There's also an "Art of Electronics:
Standard Manual", does anyone have any knowledge of that one? Thanks! Any more book recommendations BTW?
Sure... Mick&Brick 'Bit Slice Microprocessor Design' is a classic if
you're interested in microcoded CPU internals. It's not that easy to
find, though (well, I don't buy things on the internet, so it might be
easy to get there, I've never looked).
You also should start collecting data books (or data sheets) on all the
chips you might be interested in. You'll need them for the CPU, any
peripheral chips you like, and so on. And of course a TTL databook is
essential (don't rely on things like the Maplin Catalogue, there are
plenty of chips not listed in there).
-tony
9:09 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
At 07:21 am 23/08/2001 -0600, you wrote:
[PhD's]
Actually, it's not as unusual as you may think.
Some folks don't know how
to do
anything useful, so they get more advanced degrees
instead. I know of
several
folks who have multiple PhD's, not that it
increases my respect for them,
but it
does indicate they've completed a major piece of
academic work with a
minimum of
supervision.
There is definitely an element of that, although R&D does make an excellent
outlet for the head-in-the-clouds types. Some of these people have designed
some exceptionally clever bits of kit; even if some of that kit verges on
the brutal. For instance, I know the chap who invented a thing called the
"Frit Welder", or "Fritter" as it's known. This repairs mains (and
higher)
voltage AC lines by connecting live directly to neutral for 1/2 cycle; the
resulting surge either repairs corroded joints by melting them (thus
reforming the joint), or blowing a hole in the ground so the engineers know
where to dig...
Apparently, the machine jumps when its used...
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
9:47 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
Having worked in R&D most of my last 25 years, I've got to disagree about the
notion that it's a good place for "head-in-the-clouds" types. Generally,
R&D
has not only to develop entirely new technologies, but has to take the current
set of needs and cook up ways of meeting those needs with currently avaialble
technology and get the job done before the market window closes.
Head-in-the-clouds types may excel at basic research, but often don't fit in the
"get-the-job-done-now" environment that business demands.
The PhD is proof of little other than the ability to get a pretty sizeable job,
often research, done with a minimum of external hand-holding and guidance. To
get that done, a fellow has to be diligent, focused, and bent on getting from
one end of the job to the other. He doesn't have to be terribly imaginative,
terribly resourceful, or particularly bright. He does have to be a good and
determined worker, though. He's got to be able to take a set of requirements do
what he believes will satisfy them, then justify what he's done within the
framework of those requirements to defend the notion that he's done what was
required. If he manages that, they'll call him Doctor.
People like that are well suited to basic research, as they have the discipline
to adhere to a set of requirements and dig out the required information, then
present it appropriately. That seldom helps with product development where the
cycle is short and the goal is to apply currently available solutions to an
already-defined problem.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Vickers" <avickers(a)solutionengineers.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:09 AM
Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK
At 07:21 am 23/08/2001 -0600, you wrote:
[PhD's]
Actually, it's not as unusual as you may
think. Some folks don't know how
to do
anything useful, so they get more advanced degrees
instead. I know of
several
folks who have multiple PhD's, not that it
increases my respect for them,
but it
does indicate they've completed a major piece
of academic work with a
minimum of
supervision.
There is definitely an element of that, although R&D does make an excellent
outlet for the head-in-the-clouds types. Some of these people have designed
some exceptionally clever bits of kit; even if some of that kit verges on
the brutal. For instance, I know the chap who invented a thing called the
"Frit Welder", or "Fritter" as it's known. This repairs mains
(and higher)
voltage AC lines by connecting live directly to neutral for 1/2 cycle; the
resulting surge either repairs corroded joints by melting them (thus
reforming the joint), or blowing a hole in the ground so the engineers know
where to dig...
Apparently, the machine jumps when its used...
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
24 Aug
24 Aug
3:42 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
At 03:47 am 24/08/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote:
Having worked in R&D most of my last 25 years,
I've got to disagree about the
notion that it's a good place for "head-in-the-clouds" types.
Please don't take me the wrong way - it was not meant in a derogatory way
at all. There's plenty of call for blue-sky research (as I've heard it
called). And off-the-wall ideas are often good ones, e.g. the Fritter.
Generally, R&D
has not only to develop entirely new technologies, but has to take the
current
set of needs and cook up ways of meeting those needs
with currently avaialble
technology and get the job done before the market window closes.
Head-in-the-clouds types may excel at basic research, but often don't fit
in
the
"get-the-job-done-now" environment that
business demands.
Agreed. However, you have to appreciate the history of this place: It
started life as part of the nationalised UK electricity industry. As a
nationalised industry, "value for money", "return on investment" and
other
such terms had no meaning. As my Dad said - every three months a big tipper
wagon turned up and deposited several million pounds of cash in the car
park. No-one ever questioned where or how it was spent, just that it was...
Basically, until privatisation in 1989, the word "profit" did not enter
into the vocabulary of this place. Gradually, since 1989, this has changed;
and funnily enough many of the PhDs have left for pastures new.
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
22 Aug
22 Aug
12:14 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
Adrian Vickers skrev:
It may be
painful to learn, but it's very satisfying when you breathe life
into
>what was a "dear, departed" computer from yesteryear. Definitely. And with Z80s (in particular) being so
cheap, as well as DRAM
chips, building ones own becomes quite appealing too. I know a chap who
already does that sort of thing (although I think he uses older Intel
processors on the whole); but I like the idea of a 40-pin processor - it's
nice and simple.
I can't remember whether I posted the link to the DIY ZX81, Jupiter ACE and
UK101 projects a while ago or whether that was on another list. Oh well, here
they are again: Or not...
Well, there must be links at either
http://www.home-micros.freeserve.co.uk/zx80/zx80.html or
http://www.breezer.demon.co.uk/spec/tech/
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
G? med i SUGA, Swedish Usergroup of Amiga!
WWW: http://swedish.usergroup.amiga.tm/
BBS: 08-6582572, telnet://sua.ath.cx:42512
10:12 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
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1:07 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
At 11:12 pm 22/08/2001 +0100, you wrote:
True :) It does seem a shame to practice on such a rare piece of kit,
somehow...
Err, are PETs rare? They seem pretty common compared to the stuff I
learnt computer repair on (Philips P850). I've never thought of the
8032SK as being a particularly rare PET either (It was the first CBM I
obtained, which might affect my judgement here).
It depends which one... I've not seen many 8032SKs about (I still curse the
day I had to hand the working one I was using back to its rightful owner),
probably because they're either rotting away forgotten in lofts, or
collecters who have them won't give away/sell them. I don't blame them, the
8032SK is an inspirational piece of design, even now. Well, until you look
under the cover and see that it's a right hotch-potch...
Analoge or Digital (I use both, FWIW, as each type has its advantages).
Digital. I used to have an analogue, but it went missing many years ago.
Which would you recommend? I'd pay ?200-?300 for something that's going to
do what I need, which is borderline new one (so long as I don't go for the
one and only model Maplins still do). I *may* be able to wheedle one out of
EATL (the place I briefly worked at so many years ago), I'll have to tickle
my contacts...
Excellent. You'd be amazed how many problems are PSU-related, though...
I can imagine. 12v will fry a TTL chip, won't it? All the working PETs I've
got have some screen wobble, so it's possible that the PSUs are getting
borderline with age, unless that's what they always did - except through my
rose-tinted retrospecs.
Did you discover that trick yourself? If some, I am fairly impressed.
Much as I would like to take credit, I can't. A chap on the cbm-hackers
mailing list suggested it.
OK... Is RDY mostly high at the CPU (or could this darn thing be stuck in
a wait state)?
IIRC, I checked that accidentally (got the wrong pin when checking the
voltage), and it seemed to be stable at 5.23v; depending on how often it's
supposed to drop, I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.
Those sound low. I'd expect them to be 50% duty cycle square waves with a
5V or so amplitude. But as you say, you need a 'scope to see what is
really going on.
I'll give Stewarts a call tomorrow, if I remember. Are they likely to have
logic probes as well?
Be warned a new logic analyser is an expensive instrument, and is likely
to be way out of your price range. But a lot of older logic analysers,
which 'only' go up to 100MHz are available second-hand. While they're not
all that useful for many modern chips (I will not say 'useless', becuase
I've used them to debug such systems), they are idea for 99% of classic
computers. You might find one for \pounds 50.00 or less if you hunt
around (say at radio rallies). Something like a Gould K100D would be
ideal, I think.
Maplin do a single-point probe for about ?50; Farnells do a couple more,
but their full logic analyser is about ?500 (and looks suspiciously like an
oscilloscope with the knobs replaced with a keypad). I'm not out to spend a
grand on test kit *just* yet; especially not if there's some good s/h gear
around.
> >> Hmm, possibly. I suspect it's going
to involve many hours of slaving
over a
hot soldering
iron, and TBH my soldering's just not that good. Besides,
Well, this is good practice, then :-) > >> Possibly. The trouble is - where can the
problem lie? The machine is
either
What test equipment do you have?
Erm, a multimeter... Any ideas as to the input resistance (or sensitivity),
just in case it's
seriously loading the signals.
'fraid not. I've got the spec sheet for it, but it's up at my Liverpool
pad, and thus inaccessible for the next couple of weeks.
I'd have
to buy a 'scope, and they're not cheap...
You can get _good_ second-hand 'scopes for less than a poor quality new
one. Stewarts of Reading often have Tektronix 'scopes for a few hundred
pounds (something like a 465 or a low-end 7000). An older, vavled, Tektronix 500-seires is another
possibility (it's what
I use), but be warned that collecting and repairing classic 'scopes can
be as adictive as collecting classic computers, and you'll end up needing
a 'scope to fix the 'scope, and so on ;-)
LOL. I'm running out of space - fast - as it is; no way do I need yet more
bulky gear!
I notice you're in the UK, just out of curiousity
where are you (I'm in
SW London), just in case there's somebody near who could at least do a
few tests for you.
Just up the road from Tower Bridge (E1) mostly; when I'm not down here, I'm
up near Liverpool. At the moment, most of my collection is here with me in
my 18'x12' flat; I shall be moving a good chunk of it up north soon,
however, it's getting to the point where I can't move in here!
Start by checking all the power rails (at the pins of
the chips) with a
voltmeter. Get the PSU working first.
Done & tested. Power is OK. Then use a
'scope, logic probe or logic analyser (yes, OK, I have
somewhat fancy test gear) to check the clock input to the 6502.
Actually, I used the voltmeter for that; it reads approx half the normal
input voltage, which *suggests* that its OK. I've used it many times to check clock signals, etc
when all I had was a
multimeter....
This was before I discovered the frequency measurement available on my
multimeter. However, it looks like it's got a maximum of 99.9Hz, which will
not be suitable :(
If
missing, fix the clock circuit. Check the reset pin while you're at it,
to ensure the machine is not stuck in the reset state. Without good
power, clock, and reset, the machine is not going to do a lot.
Reset is OK too, so theoretically (and assuming the clock really is
ticking, and not just stuck at a constant half voltage) the CPU is getting
what it'll need. Then use the same instrument(s) to check the phi2 (bus
clock output) of
the 6502. And look for activity on the address/data buses.
The clock outputs register lower voltages than the clock in (0.93v and
0.75v). However, that tells me pretty much bugger all, I will need some
better kit to really examine those. When you've got this far, it's then time to see
just what ROM(s) are
being selected (logic probe, etc on the CS/ pins) and thus what the CPU
is doing. Unless, of course you have a logic analyser that can look at
all 16 address lines at once.
This is realms of the unknown for me - I shall have to go look up logic
probes/logic analysers... I assume the same sort of checks can be done with
most chips, e.g. RAM, ULAs and so forth. You need a 'scope as well -- a logic analyser is
only useful if the
signals are known to be logic-level signals.
Did anyone ever do a combined logic-analyser/'scope?
IIRC, the monitor needs drive signals from the 6845 on the mainboard to
get the horizontal output stage running (and this whistling). So if there
is a video section fault, you won't get any display or whistle. I would
ignore the monitor problem for the moment and debug the logic side...
That makes sense. I'd guess that the monitor side is mostly analogue anyway?
Thanks - you've definitely got me hooked onto this electronics lark. Mind
you, that wasn't precisely difficult, I nearly went that way at school, but
side-tracked into software instead.
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
1:32 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
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9:29 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
At 02:32 am 23/08/2001 +0100, you wrote:
Actually, I think it's a stupid design.
Erm, I was thinking more of the way it looks on the desk...
Which would you recommend? I'd pay =A3200-=A3300 for something that's goi=
Don't buy a new low-end 'scope (certainly not one of the Lucky Goldstar
or whatever that Maplin sells (I think the 'Lucky' part of that brand
name describes what you are if it works properly :-))). The Tekky 465 is
a small-ish portable instrument. The 7000 is larger, but it takes plug-in
modules, which means you can get (or could get) various special-purpose
plug-ins. That's not too useful unless you have some special applications
and _can get the right module_.
I think simple, but reasonably useful for now at least; I may need fancy
stuff in the future, but I'd prefer a "beginners" instrument for now.
I'll
go with the Tex 465 then, if I can get one, or I'll ask them which they
recommend on a similar level.
That's close enough to me (i.e. it's near a Tube station :-)) that it
won't take much persuading to convinve me to appear with a logic analyser
or similar if necessary. It's probably better if you do some more work on
your own (you'll learn more that way....)
Agreed. If I don't get the basics learned first, I'd just end up a spare
wheel...
Very easily....
I'll check that. I had to remove the whole gubbins from my working 8032
when the mains filter exploded, but I didn't check any resistances/voltages
there. All the connections have been un-made then re-made, so if the HR
usually comes from mucky connectors, that's unlikely. If the cap is going,
however, moving it around would have no effect.
Is there any way to test for a drying cap?
If it's high, the CPU will be running (or should be running). It's not
stuck low, and thus I think it's likely that this is not a problem... (it
would be a total coincidence if it pulsed low very briefly at just the
right time to start a wait state on every cycle...)
Unfortunately, the CPU *is* kaput, but (as mentioned elsewhere) I'm not
happy putting a spare (i.e. one from another machine) in until I'm totally
sure the bad board isn't going to kill it.
No harm in asking... I may drive out on Saturday and have a look, if
they're open.
That sounds a little high. About \pounds 25.00 is more reasonable, I think.
Maplin, innit. Not exactly the cheapest on the block...
:)
GBP500 is reasonable, I'd say, so long as the kit is going to last a while
and do most of the stuff I need of it. I can always sell it on later, of
course, when/if I need to upgrade.
Yes... Tektronix and HP both sold logic analyser plug-ins for some of
their scopes (the Tektronix 7D01 for the 7000-series scopes, and HP did
one for the 180-series scopes that I can't remember the number of, but
which I have the service manual for somewhere).
That sounds ideal, but probably overkill for what I want - especially right
now...
Err, are PETs rare? They seem pretty common compared to
the stuff I=20
learnt computer repair on (Philips P850). I've never thought of the=20
8032SK as being a particularly rare PET either (It was the first CBM I=20
obtained, which might affect my judgement here).
It depends which one... I've not seen many 8032SKs about (I still curse t=
he
day I had to hand the working one I was using back to its rightful owner)=
,
probably because they're either rotting away forgotten in lofts, or
collecters who have them won't give away/sell them. I don't blame them, t=
he
8032SK is an inspirational piece of design, even now. Well, until you loo=
k
under the cover and see that it's a right hotch-potch... The 'separate keyboard' seems
nice until you move it away from the machine, whereupon the keyboard
cable unplugs itself from the DB25 on the main unit.
I never found that to be a problem, although I mostly used it with the
keyboard in it's looks-like-its-attached position; It would probably have
been better with an IDC connector (ala the Osbourne).
The thing is just
too wide to fit on a shelf in a 19" rack.
They're supposed to sit on desks, not racks...
And the wires to the monitor
are too short to easily open the case with the monitor still on top of
it. No, I don't like the design at all.
I assume you realise it's a normal 8032 motherboard in there, rotated by
90 degrees and with cables connecting the user port and GPIB edge
connectors to the Amphenol Blue Ribbon connectors on the back. It is,
AFAIK the only PET not to need a special GPIB cable for the link between
the machine and the first peripheral.
Internally it's a mess. The PSU is in a crazy position; the 240V supply
line is too short and stretches dangerously if the unit is opened to
90degrees, the balance is all wrong, and yes - it's just an 8032 board
rotated (although there are subtle differences between the -SK board and
the regular board, although that may just be down to different revisions
between the machines. The only reason it doesn't need a "special"
PET-->IEEE cable is because it already has one internally... Useful,
because I've plundered it to test the diskdrives I've now got with the
regular 8032 (and they work nicely!). Shame they didn't bother to put the
plastic keys in, so there's the possibility of putting it on upside down -
luckily that didn't happen to me. Oh yes, the monitor signal & power cables
go through a connector which floats in the middle of the machine - it looks
like someone forgot about that until the last second...
I'd have
to buy a 'scope, and they're not cheap...
You can get _good_ second-hand 'scopes for less than a poor quality new=20
one. Stewarts of Reading often have Tektronix 'scopes for a few hundred=20
pounds (something like a 465 or a low-end 7000).
I would probably go for the 465 in your case. For me, I'd go for a 7000
(my old, valved, 555 has plug-ins, and some of them (1GHz sampler,
spectrum analyeser, etc) are fun...
Hmm. Valves. There was a whole branch of electronics which finished (um,
ceased to be mainstream, I should say) before I got started...
I notice you're in the UK, just out of curiousity
where are you (I'm in=20
SW London), just in case there's somebody near who could at least do a=20
few tests for you.=20
Just up the road from Tower Bridge (E1) mostly; when I'm not down here, I= Excellent. You'd be amazed how many problems are
PSU-related, though...
I can imagine. 12v will fry a TTL chip, won't it? All the working PETs I'=
ve
got have some screen wobble, so it's possible that the PSUs are getting
borderline with age, unless that's what they always did - except through =
Sounds like the large capacitor(s) are drying up. Or on the models with
them separately mounted on the chassis, the connector linking them to the
mainboard has gone high-resistance (another common fault!). OK... Is RDY mostly high at the CPU (or could this darn
thing be stuck i=
n=20
a wait state)?
IIRC, I checked that accidentally (got the wrong pin when checking the
voltage), and it seemed to be stable at 5.23v; depending on how often it'=
s
supposed to drop, I don't know if that's a good or bad thing.
I'll give Stewarts a call tomorrow, if I remember. Are they likely to hav=
e
logic probes as well?
They do sell other test gear (mostly second-hand). They often have logic
analysers (at various prices, not necessarily cheap :-(), dunno about
smaller stuff... Be warned
a new logic analyser is an expensive instrument, and is likely=
=20
to be way out of your price range. But a lot of
older logic analysers,=20
which 'only' go up to 100MHz are available second-hand. While they're no=
t=20
all that useful for many modern chips (I will not
say 'useless', becuase=
=20
I've used them to debug such systems), they
are idea for 99% of classic=20
computers. You might find one for \pounds 50.00 or less if you hunt=20
around (say at radio rallies). Something like a Gould K100D would be=20
ideal, I think.
Maplin do a single-point probe for about =A350; Farnells do a couple more= but their full
logic analyser is about =A3500 (and looks suspiciously lik=
e an
oscilloscope with the knobs replaced with a keypad). I'm not out to spend=
And rather different internal electronics.... a
grand on test kit *just* yet; especially not if there's some good s/h gea=
No, I am not suprised.... You need a 'scope as well -- a logic analyser is
only useful if the=20
signals are known to be logic-level signals.=20
Did anyone ever do a combined logic-analyser/'scope?
Tektronix also did a portable logic analyser system (it had a gas plasma
display on top, and could also drive a VGA monitor IIRC) for which one of
the option boards was a digital sampling scope. It was NOT CHEAP, though...
:(
What about one of these software oscilloscopes? I think the only one I've
seen was a picture on EPE's website, but there must be a few of them
surely? Mind you, hardly a portable device if you need a pentium PC within
reach...
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
23 Aug
23 Aug
9:57 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
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8:48 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
At 10:57 pm 23/08/2001 +0100, you wrote:
Something which (as you'll come to discover if you hang around on
classiccmp) I don't care much about. It is certainly well down with
respect to functionality.
That's fair enough. Personally, I doubt any of the older computers are
*truly* elegant internally - there was too much learning going on. I'm not
even sure if it's true of modern computers either.
Of course, you'll prove me wrong now... ;)
Well, just about every other plastic-cased PET owner I know thinks that
'SK' stands for 'Stupid Kludge' :-)
Heh. Speaking of kludges, I've got a WordCraft dongle (but no WordCraft) if
anyone has lost theirs.
So? The thing has a GPIB interface, so it's reasonable to assume it's
going to be possibly used to control test equipment. Making it just to
wide to sit on a shelf in a rack is very annoying. It's just another
aspect of the bad design of this case...
Were Commodore really thinking that? I know the HP stuff was suited to
controlling 'scopes and the like through the 488 bus, but I don't recall
them having external drives, printers, etc. controlled via it. ICBW...
Agreed.
Yup, one of the cbm-hackers guys kindly provided a set of instructions on
how to remove the mainboard with minimum disruption; useful as it means I
can get to the voltage regulators and check them (they're fine).
Indeed. The secondary cassette port is in a different place, and the
monitor signal connector has moved as well.
Well, true.... Are GPIB connectors still reasonably available? I ask
because the ones which came with the machine (& the cable) have sustained
some connector damage at some point; they work, but I have to be *really*
careful connecting them up.
No, there's just a bunch of signal wires which drop down onto the main
board, and two AC lines which mosey up on into the monitor cabinet (which,
awkwardly, are soldered directly to the PSU).
:) I have used 'scopes in the past, I guess it's just a case of remembering
how. And maybe (shock, horror) reading the instructions.
Exactly. Watching an expert at work is very educational, but nothing like
rolling the sleeves up and getting in there oneself. And, with the combined
skill of this maillist, if I *do* get stuck, I know where to turn for
assistance.
Erm, it *is* brown - but a nice factory brown, and it's not slightly
crumbly or showing any signs of discolouration...
ESR?
For now, I don't see myself working with the latest & greatest; I've only
got one duff PET at the moment, although if I can get this one running
again, I may more actively seek broken kit, if only for practice.
However, whilst I like the idea of learning embedded systems, I'll probably
start simple and use a Z80 or similar - I can't (yet) think of anything
where I'd use some super-fast chip. Incidentally, what's with these PIC
chips? They seem to be very popular at the moment.
I tend to agree. I could use a parallel-port device relatively easily (I
have a couple of laptops), but space is of a sufficent premium here that it
would genuinely be easier to have a self-contained device.
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
Actually, I think it's a stupid design.
Erm, I was thinking more of the way it looks on the desk... The 'separate keyboard' seems
nice until you move it away from the machine, whereupon the keyboard
cable unplugs itself from the DB25 on the main unit.
I never found that to be a problem, although I mostly used it with the keyboard in it's looks-like-its-attached
position; It would probably have
been better with an IDC connector (ala the Osbourne).
Or with locking screws on the DB25...
The thing is just
too wide to fit on a shelf in a 19" rack.
They're supposed to sit on desks, not racks... Internally it's a mess. The PSU is in a crazy
position; the 240V supply
Agreed. It's really a normal 8032 re-cased, and it doesn't really fit the
new case... The 8296 (same case, totally revised mainboard) is a
lot
better in this respect I believe.
I've not seen one of those; I did wonder if the expansion board I've got in
my 8032 (which turns it into an 8096) would fit, but I don't think there's
enough height in the -SK case.
line is too
short and stretches dangerously if the unit is opened to
90degrees, the balance is all wrong, and yes - it's just an 8032 board
I seem to remember it's best to take the monitor off first (Rotate it to
free the tilt/swivel base, then unplug the 9 pin mate-n-lock connector).
Then the case opens without straining too much of the wiring, and without
the darn machine falling over all the time. rotated (although there are subtle differences
between the -SK board and
the regular board, although that may just be down to different revisions
I think it's just different revisions. There's no reason for any
electrical changes to the board. between the machines. The only reason it
doesn't need a "special"
PET-->IEEE cable is because it already has one internally... Useful,
Sure....
because I've plundered it to test the
diskdrives I've now got with the
regular 8032 (and they work nicely!). Shame they didn't bother to put the
plastic keys in, so there's the possibility of putting it on upside down -
Yes, but the average user is not expected to ever unplug the edge
connectors inside the 8032.... luckily that
didn't happen to me. Oh yes, the monitor signal & power cables
go through a connector which floats in the middle of the machine - it looks
like someone forgot about that until the last second...
Indeed. I can't remember if the normal 8032 has that or not. The 8296
certainly does.... It's useful in that you can remove the monitor easily,
and the rest of the machine (PSU + logic board) is then a lot easier to
work on...
With the old 8032, I find a suitably calibrated pile of books behind the
machine can be used to rest the back of the monitor, so you can open the
case to the extent of the hinge. I used a similar trick with the 8032SK...
I think simple, but reasonably useful for now at
least; I may need fancy
stuff in the future, but I'd prefer a "beginners" instrument for now.
I'll
I would not class the 465 (or any Tektronix 'scope) as a 'beginner's
instrument' :-). Yes, they can be simple to use, but they have enough
facilities to keep you going for a long time. You are not going to
outgrow it anytime soon. There are things it won't do, but you rarely want
to do them anyway (how
often do you need an RF spectrum analyser for computer repair, for example
:-)). For displaying waveforms it'll do all you (or I) am likely to need.
Indeed...
Suffice it to say that a valved 'scope can still be
a very useful
instrument (I'd much rather have a good valved 'scope than a typical
hobbyist grade modern 'scope). But it is going to need a bit of looking
after. You are going to have to recalibrate it from time to time, and
rebalance the amplifiers, and so on. It's not difficult, but it may not
be the sort of thing you want to get into.
Perhaps not *just* yet; I'm sure that the desire will come with time...
Agreed. If I
don't get the basics learned first, I'd just end up a spare
wheel...
Yes. While I'm sure I could fix this PET (and I could even explain what
I'd done), you'll learn a lot more by doing it yourself. I'll check that. I had to remove the whole
gubbins from my working 8032
when the mains filter exploded, but I didn't check any resistances/voltages
there. All the connections have been un-made then re-made, so if the HR
usually comes from mucky connectors, that's unlikely. If the cap is going,
Normally, if the PSU connector goes high resistance, it overheats and the
plastic turns brown. It's easy to spot... however, moving it around would have no effect.
Is there any way to test for a drying cap?
YEs, you need an ESR meter (or a good impedance bridge). The former is not too expensive (around 50 quid, especially if you
buy it as a kit),
and is probably worth getting if you get seriously into doing repairs
(particularly of switch-mode PSUs). The latter is expensive, and is only
worth getting you do a lot of design (or research :-)), or if somebody
gives you a broken one (as happened to me...)
:) I shall live in hope...
[Stewarts]
I've actually had a couple of offers of 'scopes (thanks, chaps), so I shall
see what becomes of those first.
No harm in asking... I may drive out on Saturday
and have a look, if
they're open.
I can't remember if they open Saturday mornings. I am pretty sure they
close in the afternoon.
[Logic analysers]
> GBP500 is reasonable,
(actually, this referred to *all* test kit, not just an LA)
I'd say, so
long as the kit is going to last a while
and do most of the stuff I need of it. I can always sell it on later, of
course, when/if I need to upgrade.
It depends on what you want to do. If you are going to work mostly on
classic stuff then a 100MHz 16 channel analyser should be enough (it'll
be useful on all 8 bit micros, PDPs (8s, 11s, 10s, etc), older VAXen, and
so on. If you are intending to do some designing with the latest chips
then you might need something faster in the end. What about one
of these software oscilloscopes? I think the only one I've
seen was a picture on EPE's website, but there must be a few of them
surely? Mind you, hardly a portable device if you need a pentium PC within
reach...
I'd not bother with them. They are not exactly convenient to use (and you
have to get a PC to put them in (or at least I would...). They are
digital sampling storage scopes (which is nice), but I suspect a good old
analogue scope is more useful to you at the moment.
9:35 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
With respect to the Commodore choice to put HPIB on their computers, as opposed
to a parallel port, there was a fellow here in Denver who cooked up a circuit
that allowed one to attach a then-common EPSON printer to the HPIB, thereby
making the computer into a useful tool. He became rich beyond his wildest
dreams, and started a company called "Progressive Peripherals" which may in
fact
still be in operation.
Since there were, at the time Commodore put these devices on the market,
external HPIB-interfaced HDC's, HDD units, FD units, etc, including printers, it
wasn't a TERRIBLE choice, though it wasn't necessarily the path to the cheapest
solution.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Vickers" <avickers(a)solutionengineers.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
At 10:57 pm 23/08/2001 +0100, you wrote:
Something which (as you'll come to discover if you hang around on
classiccmp) I don't care much about. It is certainly well down with
respect to functionality.
That's fair enough. Personally, I doubt any of the older computers are
*truly* elegant internally - there was too much learning going on. I'm not
even sure if it's true of modern computers either.
Of course, you'll prove me wrong now... ;)
Well, just about every other plastic-cased PET owner I know thinks that
'SK' stands for 'Stupid Kludge' :-)
Heh. Speaking of kludges, I've got a WordCraft dongle (but no WordCraft) if
anyone has lost theirs.
So? The thing has a GPIB interface, so it's reasonable to assume it's
going to be possibly used to control test equipment. Making it just to
wide to sit on a shelf in a rack is very annoying. It's just another
aspect of the bad design of this case...
Were Commodore really thinking that? I know the HP stuff was suited to
controlling 'scopes and the like through the 488 bus, but I don't recall
them having external drives, printers, etc. controlled via it. ICBW...
Agreed.
Yup, one of the cbm-hackers guys kindly provided a set of instructions on
how to remove the mainboard with minimum disruption; useful as it means I
can get to the voltage regulators and check them (they're fine).
Indeed. The secondary cassette port is in a different place, and the
monitor signal connector has moved as well.
Well, true.... Are GPIB connectors still reasonably available? I ask
because the ones which came with the machine (& the cable) have sustained
some connector damage at some point; they work, but I have to be *really*
careful connecting them up.
No, there's just a bunch of signal wires which drop down onto the main
board, and two AC lines which mosey up on into the monitor cabinet (which,
awkwardly, are soldered directly to the PSU).
:) I have used 'scopes in the past, I guess it's just a case of remembering
how. And maybe (shock, horror) reading the instructions.
Exactly. Watching an expert at work is very educational, but nothing like
rolling the sleeves up and getting in there oneself. And, with the combined
skill of this maillist, if I *do* get stuck, I know where to turn for
assistance.
Erm, it *is* brown - but a nice factory brown, and it's not slightly
crumbly or showing any signs of discolouration...
ESR?
For now, I don't see myself working with the latest & greatest; I've only
got one duff PET at the moment, although if I can get this one running
again, I may more actively seek broken kit, if only for practice.
However, whilst I like the idea of learning embedded systems, I'll probably
start simple and use a Z80 or similar - I can't (yet) think of anything
where I'd use some super-fast chip. Incidentally, what's with these PIC
chips? They seem to be very popular at the moment.
I tend to agree. I could use a parallel-port device relatively easily (I
have a couple of laptops), but space is of a sufficent premium here that it
would genuinely be easier to have a self-contained device.
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
Actually, I think it's a stupid design.
Erm, I was thinking more of the way it looks on the desk... The 'separate keyboard' seems
nice until you move it away from the machine, whereupon the keyboard
cable unplugs itself from the DB25 on the main unit.
I never found that to be a problem, although I mostly used it with the keyboard in it's looks-like-its-attached
position; It would probably have
been better with an IDC connector (ala the Osbourne).
Or with locking screws on the DB25...
The thing is just
too wide to fit on a shelf in a 19" rack.
They're supposed to sit on desks, not racks... Internally it's a mess. The PSU is in a crazy
position; the 240V supply
Agreed. It's really a normal 8032 re-cased, and it doesn't really fit the
new case... The 8296 (same case, totally revised mainboard) is
a lot
better in this respect I believe.
I've not seen one of those; I did wonder if the expansion board I've got in
my 8032 (which turns it into an 8096) would fit, but I don't think there's
enough height in the -SK case.
line is
too short and stretches dangerously if the unit is opened to
90degrees, the balance is all wrong, and yes - it's just an 8032 board
I seem to remember it's best to take the monitor off first (Rotate it to
free the tilt/swivel base, then unplug the 9 pin mate-n-lock connector).
Then the case opens without straining too much of the wiring, and without
the darn machine falling over all the time. rotated (although there are subtle differences
between the -SK board and
the regular board, although that may just be down to different revisions
I think it's just different revisions. There's no reason for any
electrical changes to the board. between the machines. The only reason it
doesn't need a "special"
PET-->IEEE cable is because it already has one internally... Useful,
Sure....
because I've plundered it to test the
diskdrives I've now got with the
regular 8032 (and they work nicely!). Shame they didn't bother to put the
plastic keys in, so there's the possibility of putting it on upside down -
Yes, but the average user is not expected to ever unplug the edge
connectors inside the 8032.... luckily
that didn't happen to me. Oh yes, the monitor signal & power cables
go through a connector which floats in the middle of the machine - it looks
like someone forgot about that until the last second...
Indeed. I can't remember if the normal 8032 has that or not. The 8296
certainly does.... It's useful in that you can remove the monitor easily,
and the rest of the machine (PSU + logic board) is then a lot easier to
work on...
With the old 8032, I find a suitably calibrated pile of books behind the
machine can be used to rest the back of the monitor, so you can open the
case to the extent of the hinge. I used a similar trick with the 8032SK...
I think simple, but reasonably useful for now at
least; I may need fancy
stuff in the future, but I'd prefer a "beginners" instrument for now.
I'll
I would not class the 465 (or any Tektronix 'scope) as a 'beginner's
instrument' :-). Yes, they can be simple to use, but they have enough
facilities to keep you going for a long time. You are not going to
outgrow it anytime soon. There are things it won't do, but you rarely
want to do them anyway (how
often do you need an RF spectrum analyser for computer repair, for example
:-)). For displaying waveforms it'll do all you (or I) am likely to need.
Indeed...
Suffice it to say that a valved 'scope can
still be a very useful
instrument (I'd much rather have a good valved 'scope than a typical
hobbyist grade modern 'scope). But it is going to need a bit of looking
after. You are going to have to recalibrate it from time to time, and
rebalance the amplifiers, and so on. It's not difficult, but it may not
be the sort of thing you want to get into.
Perhaps not *just* yet; I'm sure that the desire will come with time...
Agreed.
If I don't get the basics learned first, I'd just end up a spare
wheel...
Yes. While I'm sure I could fix this PET (and I could even explain what
I'd done), you'll learn a lot more by doing it yourself. I'll check that. I had to remove the whole
gubbins from my working 8032
when the mains filter exploded, but I didn't check any resistances/voltages
there. All the connections have been un-made then re-made, so if the HR
usually comes from mucky connectors, that's unlikely. If the cap is going,
Normally, if the PSU connector goes high resistance, it overheats and the
plastic turns brown. It's easy to spot... however, moving it around would have no effect.
Is there any way to test for a drying cap?
YEs, you need an ESR meter (or a good impedance bridge). The former is not too expensive (around 50 quid, especially if
you buy it as a kit),
and is probably worth getting if you get seriously into doing repairs
(particularly of switch-mode PSUs). The latter is expensive, and is only
worth getting you do a lot of design (or research :-)), or if somebody
gives you a broken one (as happened to me...)
:) I shall live in hope...
[Stewarts]
I've actually had a couple of offers of 'scopes (thanks, chaps), so I shall
see what becomes of those first.
No harm in asking... I may drive out on Saturday
and have a look, if
they're open.
I can't remember if they open Saturday mornings. I am pretty sure they
close in the afternoon.
[Logic analysers]
> GBP500 is reasonable,
(actually, this referred to *all* test kit, not just an LA)
I'd
say, so long as the kit is going to last a while
and do most of the stuff I need of it. I can always sell it on later, of
course, when/if I need to upgrade.
It depends on what you want to do. If you are going to work mostly on
classic stuff then a 100MHz 16 channel analyser should be enough (it'll
be useful on all 8 bit micros, PDPs (8s, 11s, 10s, etc), older VAXen, and
so on. If you are intending to do some designing with the latest chips
then you might need something faster in the end. What
about one of these software oscilloscopes? I think the only one I've
seen was a picture on EPE's website, but there must be a few of them
surely? Mind you, hardly a portable device if you need a pentium PC within
reach...
I'd not bother with them. They are not exactly convenient to use (and you
have to get a PC to put them in (or at least I would...). They are
digital sampling storage scopes (which is nice), but I suspect a good old
analogue scope is more useful to you at the moment.
24 Aug
24 Aug
12:36 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
At 03:35 AM 8/24/01 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote:
With respect to the Commodore choice to put HPIB on
their computers, as opposed
to a parallel port, there was a fellow here in Denver who cooked up a circuit
that allowed one to attach a then-common EPSON printer to the HPIB, thereby
making the computer into a useful tool. He became rich beyond his wildest
dreams, and started a company called "Progressive Peripherals" which may in
fact
still be in operation.
Progressive Peripherals and Software (PP&S) were most active
in the Amiga market for some time, although I don't know what
happened to them in the end. They made frame grabbers, genlocks,
hard disk interfaces and processor upgrades, and publishing a
number of software packages. I think they also had products
for Mac, Atari ST and even PC.
- John
P.S. Speaking of reformers, Carrie Nation's hatchet would do a
good job chopping off extraneous quoted text at the bottom of
messages. Please do.
3:44 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
At 03:35 am 24/08/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote:
Since there were, at the time Commodore put these
devices on the market,
external HPIB-interfaced HDC's, HDD units, FD units, etc, including
printers,
it
wasn't a TERRIBLE choice, though it wasn't
necessarily the path to the
cheapest
solution.
I don't dispute it - in fact, the idea of intelligent peripherals is an
excellent one; why waste the computing power of the host on menial tasks
like driving a printer, or disk drive? As you say, it wasn't necessarily
the cheapest route available, but I'd argue it would be just as cheap to do
something like that now - since processors, RAM, etc. are all dirt cheap.
In fact, isn't that what SCSI is all about?
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
4:20 a.m.
New subject: another NeXT question...
Ok, today I got my new NeXT Cube configured and recognizing
our network, including the ability to access both Netware and
Appletalk volumes from the Cube. I used the Netware client included
with NS 3.3 and then installed the CAPer Appletalk client. My
question for those that use NeXT machines on the list is: what is a
good POP3/SMTP email client for NeXTStep?
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
10:41 a.m.
New subject: another NeXT question...
I probably should be ashamed, but I read my mail on a Wintel box. If I
check mail on the NeXT, I just use the Mailman web interface server from
my ISP to read it as a web page. I've downloaded PopOver from Peak so I
could access my pop server and still use mail.app. Just haven't had the
time to set it up yet.
James
http://home.texoma.net/~jrice
Jeff Hellige wrote:
Ok, today I got my new NeXT Cube configured and recognizing
our network, including the ability to access both Netware and
Appletalk volumes from the Cube. I used the Netware client included
with NS 3.3 and then installed the CAPer Appletalk client. My
question for those that use NeXT machines on the list is: what is a
good POP3/SMTP email client for NeXTStep?
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
11:18 a.m.
New subject: another NeXT question...
On Fri, 24 Aug 2001, James L. Rice wrote:
I probably should be ashamed, but I read my mail on a
Wintel box. If I
check mail on the NeXT, I just use the Mailman web interface server from
my ISP to read it as a web page. I've downloaded PopOver from Peak so I
could access my pop server and still use mail.app. Just haven't had the
time to set it up yet.
Is it impossible to run Sendmail and Procmail on a NeXT?
Peace... Sridhar
28 Aug
28 Aug
11:01 a.m.
New subject: another NeXT question...
I probably should be ashamed, but I read my mail on a
Wintel box. If I
check mail on the NeXT, I just use the Mailman web interface server from
my ISP to read it as a web page. I've downloaded PopOver from Peak so I
could access my pop server and still use mail.app. Just haven't had the
time to set it up yet.
Just set up PopOver today and modified sendmail per the
instructions in it's help file so that it could send mail as well as
recieve. The Cube is on our LAN interacting with everything except
for MS Exchange, though it does send mail out using SMTP on the
Exchange server and pulls mail in from POP on Earthlink's mail
server. Even got the routing problem worked out. Omniweb in B/W
isn't pretty, but it's proving to still be useful on the web.
Jeff
--
Home of the TRS-80 Model 2000 FAQ File
http://www.cchaven.com
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/lakes/6757
26 Aug
26 Aug
3:01 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
Richard Erlacher skrev:
With respect to the Commodore choice to put HPIB on
their computers, as
opposed to a parallel port, there was a fellow here in Denver who cooked up a
circuit that allowed one to attach a then-common EPSON printer to the HPIB,
thereby making the computer into a useful tool. He became rich beyond his
wildest dreams, and started a company called "Progressive Peripherals" which
may in fact still be in operation.
Could that be the Progressive Peripherals and Software (PP&S) which produced a
lot of different boards for the Amiga?
BTW, Dick, are you allergic towards snipping? You just quoted about twenty-
five times the amount of lines you added. Was that necessary or did you just
do that to make my telco richer and me a little bit poorer?
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
Netiquette: it's not just a good idea, there's actually an RFC about it!
For the full details, check out <http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html>.
3:08 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
On 27 Aug 2001, Iggy Drougge wrote:
BTW, Dick, are you allergic towards snipping? You just
quoted about twenty-
five times the amount of lines you added. Was that necessary or did you just
do that to make my telco richer and me a little bit poorer?
BTW, Iggy, you just made my Telco a little richer and me a little poorer
by complaining about Dick's snipping problem. I don't care that much
though.
Peace... Sridhar
24 Aug
24 Aug
10:29 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
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12:31 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
At 11:29 pm 24/08/2001 +0100, you wrote:
Nope, afraid not. You could say I missed the "golden age" of computing
(although I'd say I didn't); having got into it in the early '80s (about
'81 I think). Bear in mind I was at primary school at the time, so I have a
good excuse.... :)
My first "real" computer was a QL, and at various times I owned/used an
MZ-80K and an 8032-SK. I used an HP briefly (I've no idea which one it was
now) before getting dragged - inevitably - into the Wintel world, from
which I have never emerged. I write this on a dual P3 1GHz box running[1]
Win2K... So I missed the world of PDP8, 11, etc., and although I've used
various Vaxen (the 8800 being the only one I can remember the designation
of), an IBM m/f (again, I forget it's number), and an elderly Tandon,
Wintel has been my mainstay.
However useful the Wintel box, it's (to use a technical term) dull as f**k.
My interest in the late '70s and '80s machine stems entirely from the fact
I'm - basically - catching up with my mis-spent yoof...
Probably - again, I joined in in the early '80s, so anything that predates
that I'm unlikely to have used, or even seen...
Predictable. When I was first doing electronics (again, mid '80s), Maplin
was the be all and end all of suppliers. Then their catalogues dropped the
fancy artwork and became "professional", and somehow the range of products
became less useful...
That makes sense. TBH, any kind of in-line connector would do - except
maybe a DIN type (for the soldering reasons given elsewhere)...
The Sharp MZ-80K had a device somewhat like that I've seen on drop-down
shelving, a kind of encapsulated "bonnet stay". Nice, but a PITA if you
need to do work at the back of the machine. If I needed total access to the
inside of a PET, I'd probably unscrew the hinge.
I've asked the old man to see if he can dig me up a 'scope; meanwhile I've
got two other offers - so one way or the other I should end up OK. Not sure
if it'll be a Tek though.
ESR?
Effective Series Resistance.
Remember in an electrolytic capacitor, the electrolyte is not the
dielectric (that's an oxide film on the surface of the +ve plate). The
electrolyte is actaully the -ve plate of the capacitor.Which means that
when the capactitor dries up, it behaves as though it has in internal
series resistance. That is why dried-up capacitors don't work too well.
An ESR meter displays the effective balue of this ineternal resistance
(the lower, the better, of course).
I shall have to read that again in the morning - it went all blurry just
now ;)
Ah - I'd half-guessed that from reading the EPE website; I don't know why,
but somehow it sounds like cheating to me...
That's
fair enough. Personally, I doubt any of the older computers are
*truly* elegant internally - there was too much learning going on. I'm not
even sure if it's true of modern computers either.
Of course, you'll prove me wrong now... ;)
If 'internally' covers electronic desgin, then you've clearly never
worked on PDP11/45s, PERQs, HP9100 calculators, or a dozen other older
machines I could name! I often think that many good design tricks were
discovered at least
twice. They were commonly used in minicomputers, then forgotten about
(for all almost all of them were documented) and then re-discovered for
microprocessors...
That sounds about right. I also wonder how many tricks have been lost &
rediscovered several times....not necessarily in the field of computing.
[Too wide for the rack]
So whether it was Commodore's original intention that PETs be used to
control lab instruments, it is clear that they were used for this. So
making a case just to wide to sit inside a rack (this case was first sold
long after the PET) seems to be somewhat silly.
Possibly - but I suspect Commodore were aiming at the style-concious
businessman, much like (say) Dell and their sleek black PCs are these days.
After all, a computer on the desk in the early '80s would be a fashion
statement, a "look at me, I'm sophisticated and 'up there with the new
technology'".
controlling
'scopes and the like through the 488 bus, but I don't recall
them having external drives, printers, etc. controlled via it. ICBW...
I think this is lack of experience again. Most classic HP machines have GPIB Well, true.... Are GPIB connectors still
reasonably available? I ask
I've never seen the combinded plug-and-socket ones for sale other than on
cables (these cables are certainly still available, at a price).
Individual plugs and sockets are not hard to get in solder-tail, PCB
mounting or IDC versions (Try RS or Farnell -- Maplin no longer do them
in useful sizes :-(). The things that are not easy to find are the
screw-down posts with M3.5 therads used on the chassis mount connector
for the jackscrews on the cable connector to screw into. The quickest way
for me to get those is to make them from scratch. More normal people, I
guess, ask a friendly local model engineer...
Should I add a lathe to my list of requirements? :)
No,
there's just a bunch of signal wires which drop down onto the main
board, and two AC lines which mosey up on into the monitor cabinet (which,
awkwardly, are soldered directly to the PSU).
Thats' the sort of time that I do a non-original mod and add a 2-pin
in-line connectort to the monitor power wires (Molex 0.062" or 0.093"
series, AMP mate-n-lock or similar). With the old
8032, I find a suitably calibrated pile of books behind the
machine can be used to rest the back of the monitor, so you can open the
case to the extent of the hinge. I used a similar trick with the 8032SK...
FWIW< the HP9100 calculator has a hingged top case (containing the PSU
and CRT + driver boards). It would latch in a reasonably open position,
but could be opened right back if necessary. HP actually sold a chain
with suitable end fittings to fix to the 2 parts of the case so that the
unit could be held further open than the internal latch would manage. :) I have used
'scopes in the past, I guess it's just a case of remembering
how. And maybe (shock, horror) reading the instructions.
Get the real Tektronix manuals (user and service if they are different)
if you end up getting a 465. There's a lot of good information in such
manuals, and they are worth reading. Is there any
way to test for a drying cap?
YEs, you need an ESR meter (or a good impedance bridge). The former is However,
whilst I like the idea of learning embedded systems, I'll probably
start simple and use a Z80 or similar - I can't (yet) think of anything
where I'd use some super-fast chip. Incidentally, what's with these PIC
chips? They seem to be very popular at the moment.
A PIC Is a type of microcontroller (chip containing microprocessor and
memory, and possibly some I/O). The disadvantage, at least with many of them, is that
you can't add
external program memory (EPROM, etc) -- what you have on chip is all you
have. And you can't write self-modifying code for much the same reason
(you can't keep on reprogramming an internal 'ROM' location, and you
can't store programs in RAM).
Eek - self modifying code? Dangerous....
Still, they are very useful chips for many small
control systems. They
are cheap enough that they are worth using even for trivial problems.
Maybe once I've got the hang of using a bus, I'll be more inclined to use
them. For now, I've a hankering after learning how it's done properly, so
to speak.
[1] I say "running W2K", using the broadest sense of the word.... It works,
mostly, but I have to re-boot it about 7-10 times a week. Grrr...
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
25 Aug
25 Aug
6:40 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
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26 Aug
26 Aug
12:15 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
At 07:40 pm 25/08/2001 +0100, you wrote:
I didn't work on them when they were current. My first computer was an
MK14, in about 1977-1978 (I still have it, but the regulator shorted and
took out most of the expensive chips so it's currently dead...). My
second computer, about a year later, was a TRS-80 Model 1.
Well, they were pretty current then, weren't they? The follow-up to the
Mk14 didn't arrive until 1980, and although I'm not sure about the TRS-80
1, I don't suppose it was *that* old at the time.
Incidentally, if I ever get good at this stuff, I'll probably take a ROM
dump of my TRS-80 Model 102, and figure out how to update it into the 21st
century (i.e. replace a 19 with a 20), and give it a 100-year new lease of
life :)
More or less what's happening with me now.... Except i don't have a
mainframe to play with, or indeed the space to keep a mainframe in....
Unfortunately, my day job requires Wintel, so I have several (3) here;
although one only runs DOS, one runs Linux, and this one runs W2K.
Somehow, I'm not in the least bit surprised...
I used to have a Sinclair Cambridge Programmable calculator (I've no idea
where the calculator itself is these days, but I *should* still have it
somewhere). That came with four books c/w example programs, etc. Some of
these cover extremely complex maths & electronics - so I really ought to
write an emulator or something. Fourier analysis in 35 program steps? Try
*that* in VB :)
I did :-)...
I nearly got one for free when I rented my shed up in Liverpool, but the
owner (who was moving into another section of the shed) wanted it back,
unfortunately (he had a good excuse - he runs a metalworking shop). We got
to keep his pillar drill, but it's hardly useful for electronics, being 8ft
tall and taking drill bits up to 1.5" diameter.... Mind you, I've also got
a CNC drilling machine, ideal for electronics. Hopefully we'll get that up
and running soon, so PCG manufacture will actually be very possible.
True... I've used plug-block extensively in the past, largely because it
doesn't involve solder. But then this was mostly on car electrics, where it
doesn't really matter how big it is, so long as it's robust enough to
survive the vibrations.
[Oscilloscopes]
I bow to your superior knowledge: If the old man comes through, it'll
probably be one of the HP's I used way back when; I'm not sure of the brand
of the other two.
It was drilled into me from a very early age that self-modifying code was A
Bad Thing.
Besides, it's impossible to do in Visual Basic - which is (currently) my
mainstay.
If 'internally' covers electronic desgin, then
you've clearly never
worked on PDP11/45s, PERQs, HP9100 calculators, or a dozen other older
machines I could name!
Nope, afraid not. You could say I missed the "golden age" of computing (although
I'd say I didn't); having got into it in the early '80s (about
'81 I think). Bear in mind I was at primary school at the time, so I have a
good excuse.... :)
I think what happened to me was that in about 1986 I managed to buy an
old P850 minicomputer for \pounds 25.00 (it was sold as scrap). The front
panel (toggle switches and filament lamps) is beautiful, so I deceided to
have a go at repairing it. I learnt about how processors worked from that
machine (even though it's very unconventional!), and decided to grab any
other machines that I could and learn about those too. However useful
the Wintel box, it's (to use a technical term) dull as f**k.
Which is why I don't (and won't) have one... I've got a PC, but (a) it
runs linux and (b) the hardware is 'much hacked' :-)) That sounds
about right. I also wonder how many tricks have been lost &
rediscovered several times....not necessarily in the field of computing.
Far too many... Which is why I read almost all the old books on
engineering, radio, electronics, etc that I can. A lot of the really
ancient stuff (radio/radar stuff from 50 years ago, for example) is still
_very_ applicable today... Heck, I noticed a very nice mechanical edge-triggered
system (basically a
pair of level trigers with mechanical hysteresis) the other day. In a
clock dating from 1360 or so. Same trick works in electronics....
I had to go look "hysteresis" up... Still not 100% sure where/why that
would be useful...
[GPIB]
I'm pretty sure some HP 9000-series Unix boxes have
HPIB disks, BTW...
Blimey. I wonder if they'd work on a PET...?
[Maplin]
Odd... I never found Maplin to have the range of either RS or Farnell
(and this was in the mid 1980s). Their quality was lower as well (I had a
few dead TTL parts from Maplin, never had a single dead one from RS or
Farnell).
It could be the cost thing - AFAIR RS were always more expensive than
Maplin, so (naturally) the school had Maplin catalogues and not RS (or
Farnell). My first introduction to these was back in the days when Dad
built PCBs of various types; most of the components came from RS or Farnell.
Yes. Maplin now have a very poor range of components. I
use them for
things like DB25 connectors, cable, and so on because they're convenient
(there are a couple of shops near enough to me that I can easily go and
pick up the bits I need). But for ICs, etc I go to RS now.
Pretty much the same here, although I have to go all the way out to Marble
Arch... I could go to Stratford, which is probably nearer, but invloves a
drive; not something I like to do when the shops are open (too damn busy).
The things that are not easy to find are the
screw-down posts with M3.5 therads used on the chassis mount connector
for the jackscrews on the cable connector to screw into. The quickest way
for me to get those is to make them from scratch. More normal people, I
guess, ask a friendly local model engineer...
Should I add a lathe to my list of requirements? :) Seriously, a small metalwork lathe (small meaning the
size of workpiece
it'll handle -- the machine itself is anything but...)
Don't I know it - I remember the lathes from school being mosters, and the
one that we briefly acquired at Liverpool was pretty damn big.
is a nice thing to
have. But it's not that useful for classic computing unless you need to
make mechanical parts, or spacers, or things like that. I use mine a lot,
because it's there. If I didn't have it, then I'd find another way, I
guess...
A lathe becomes useful when you have other, related, hobbies like model
engineering.
:) I'm deliberately trying to keep my number of hobbies (especially
expensive ones) down; motor racing takes up a *lot* of space, time & money;
and computing - although smaller - also takes time & money... I'd need to
inherit a big bag of cash before I can make enough time for anything else...
[Connectors]
That makes
sense. TBH, any kind of in-line connector would do - except
maybe a DIN type (for the soldering reasons given elsewhere)...
I try to be somewhat sane in my use of connectors, so I'd not use a 1/4"
jack plug/socket for a monitor power connection (for all it would handle
the current). I'd use something commonly associated with 'power'
connections like the Molex or AMP series I mentioned. It makes life a
little easier when you're trying to work out what a particular connector
is carrying... got two other
offers - so one way or the other I should end up OK. Not sure
if it'll be a Tek though.
Well, Tektronix are (IMHO) about the best, but there are plenty of other
brands that will be OK for the moment... FWIW, Stewarts of Reading are advertising various
Tektronix 400-series in
the latest Elektor magazine. And a few cheaper 'scopes that might do
(there's a Gould for under \pounds 100.00 which looks possible!).
Hopefully, my local newsagent will be procuring a regular copy of Elektor
soon. I seem to remember avoiding Elektor as a young lad getting interested
in electronics, mainly because it seemed too complex. But then, I did have
learning difficulties[1]...
[1] I was too lazy to learn anything :)
[PIC]
If you want to make a processor from TTL chips, or from discrete
transistors, or even from valves, well, that's a reasonable thing to want
to do. It's going to be slower than many microprocessors you can buy now
[1], but that's probably not the point. You can't fail to learn a lot
about procesor design by making one.
:) Can you *really* see me soldering hundreds of transistors onto a PCB? I
guess a valve processor would be useful in the winter months - it'd keep
the place nice and warm :)
Then again, as a learning project, I expect it would be extremely useful.
ISTR it being possible to build a latch from two transistors, or is it three?
If you want to build a traditional microprocessor
system (say a Z80 +
EPROM + RAM + a few I/O chips), well, that's fine too. It's a different
type of project, but it's equally interesting.
That was where I was thinking of starting. I'm not sure what I'll build to
begin with, whethere it'll be something useful, or just something to play
with.
If you want to make an interface to link your PC to
your pocket
calculator (as I often do...) and it turns out that you need a little
more than you can easily do with TTL, then you use a microcontroller
(such as a PIC). Again, it's a different type of project, but that
doesn't make it 'cheating' or 'invalid' or 'a waste of time'
or anything
like that.
Fair enough - it was just that looking through the recent "computerised"
projects in EPE, they all seem to use one of the PIC chips. Another problem
seems to be that they're evolving so rapidly, that models keep going out of
production (which leaves the hobbyist with something of a problem if (s)he
can't re-design the system based on another chip). OTOH, Z80s have been in
production for at least 21 years, and are still available now...
If you want to learn about the internals of processors,
or how to link
things to an address/data bus type of structure then a PIC is probably
not what you should be looking at.
Indeed.
Eek - self
modifying code? Dangerous....
You mean you _don't_ write self-modifying code? Odd.... You might find a PIC comes in handy on a more
conventional microprocessor
system, e.g. for encoding a keyboard or similar. So don't ignore them
completely...
Good idea; I'd not got around to thinking about polling keyboards, etc.
There's also a lump of stuff to do with driving LCD matrix displays in EPE
(I don't actually *have* any copies of EPE - not recent ones, anyway, but
their website gives a description about what's been in them). It struck me
that using cheap LCD matrix displays would be a lot easier than creating a
CRT driver, and also means that project "X" could be put inside of one box
(maybe two, with a separate keyboard).
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
10 a.m.
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12:10 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
At 11:00 pm 26/08/2001 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
Apparently, there is an all-software patch; although I've not investigated
it very far. It is, however, susceptible to corruption from BASIC, the
memory it resides in being non-protectable.
Very true... I think I could squeeze one rackmount in here, although access
to it would be very difficult.
<snip explanation>
Thanks!
:) A project for another day, perhaps...
Agreed - but it would be of more consequence to a schoolkid having to buy
stuff. I'd also prefer well stocked to "cheapest"; it sounds like RS fit
that bill.
Probably, but it's always shut when I find I need something...
You know, I'd have thought a lathe was essential for hackish motor
racing. To make things like bushes, spacers, special tools, and so on...
Not really - my car uses mostly stock components, so no special machining
is required. For things like cam grinds, etc., it goes back to the engine
man - who does have all that sort of stuff.
I just drive it (rather badly, at that).
Hmm. Maybe I ought to post up a picture of my workspace.... "Big" is not
the first word that would spring to mind.... Mind you, I'm probably going
to be moving come next year, hopefully to somewhere significantly bigger,
which will leave room for this sort of thing. Incidentally, by lack of
room, I mean I have free work surface of about 8"x14"; unless I go to the
kitchen...
[Bistables/Flipflops]
It was drilled into me from a very early age that self-modifying code was A
Bad Thing.
As I said, I am not a programmer, so I don't worry about such things.
:) It plays havoc with your designs.... Imagine a circuit that could
reconfigure itself at will...
[DM displays]
Incidentally, if I ever get good at this stuff, I'll probably take a ROM
dump of my TRS-80 Model 102, and figure out how to update it into the 21st
century (i.e. replace a 19 with a 20), and give it a 100-year new lease of
life :)
I must do that for the M100 sometime. It shouldn't be too hard to do. Fortunately neither machine does an automatic
day-of-week calculation
(you have to set DAY$ by hand), so the issue is just changing the 19 to
20 on the main menu, etc. Not hard to do
Yup. In fact, the main issue would be finding the right "19" to change...
More or less
what's happening with me now.... Except i don't have a
mainframe to play with, or indeed the space to keep a mainframe in....
The P850 is a mini, not a mainframe. It's just 1 10.5" high rackmount
chassis. Not that large (I find rackmount machines take up less space
than home micros, if only because you can stack them. The 'silly' cases
many micros are in with absolutely no right angles, and a top that slopes
in all direactions are impossible to stack things on top of...
I have a lot of the older HP calculator manals and program libraries,
too. Some of those programs are works of art. And FWIW, I have no
intention of using VB for anything...
Well, it's useful for some things. Like earning me a stack of cash for the
last 8 years :)
As I said the other day, I don't see the point of a
calculator emulator
(if I have a powerful enough computer to run the emulator, why not just
solve the problem using it, without slowing it down by making it emulate
some other machine). But I most certainly do see the point in preserving
old calculators (particularly programmable ones) and using them to run
such programs.
There is that. Also, no emulator could emulate those horrible clicky keys
Sinclair used...
OTOH, it would be an interesting thing to do (if not use), just to try to
figure out how it all hung together.
[Hysteresis]
I had to go look "hysteresis" up... Still not 100% sure where/why that
would be useful...
OK, you want to make a striking clock. At the hour, you have to release
the stricking mechanism, which then operates the bell hammer the
appropriate number of times, and then shuts down. This idea works (and is used) in electronic circuits
which need to be
triggered on edges of pulses rather than levels, too. I've used it myself
(an electronic state machine built from a D-type and a couple of gates)
several times.
Ah - In fact, reading up on the replacement 6502, it mentions
edge-triggered functions.
[GPIB]
They'll plug in OK (and the magic smoke won't come out) but the command
sets are totally different. So LOAD and SAVE won't do the right thing. If
you want to write your own drivers it should be possible... I'm pretty sure some HP 9000-series Unix boxes
have HPIB disks, BTW...
Blimey. I wonder if they'd work on a PET...? It could be
the cost thing - AFAIR RS were always more expensive than
Maplin, so (naturally) the school had Maplin catalogues and not RS (or
As I keep on saying, my time (and insanity) is worth a lot more than the
minor diffeenve in price between RS and Maplin (in any case, Maplin are
not cheap any more...) [Maplin]
Cheers, I'll give them a look in next time I'm over there.
Pretty much the same here, although I have to go
all the way out to Marble
Arch... I could go to Stratford, which is probably nearer, but invloves a
I've only ever been to the Marble Arch shop once, and it seemed to be
very small and badly stocked. If I am in that area, I normally try
Henry's Radio (as was, now Henry's Audio Electronics), 404 Edgeware Road. drive; not something I like to do when the shops
are open (too damn busy).
How near is it to the Tube station? Isn't the Holborn shop nearer than
Marble Arch? A lathe becomes useful when you have other, related,
hobbies like model
engineering.
:) I'm deliberately trying to keep my number of hobbies (especially
expensive ones) down; motor racing takes up a *lot* of space, time & money; [Connectors]
Ah - I must mean "chocolate block", as described below. I've *never* used
that sort of plug-block, veroboard was the closest thing to it I ever used.
True... I've used plug-block extensively in
the past, largely because it
To me a 'plug block' is one of those infernal solderless breadboards that
you stick ICs and other components into. Do you perhaps mean 'chocolate block' -- those
screw terminal strips. I
don't like those much for in-line connectors that I am going to want to
disconnect and reconnect because you need to use a screwdriver to remove
and reconnect the wires. And the wires are not kept in sequence when removed.
I had one block (about 20 wide) which *could* be plugged/unplugged
properly, as it consisted of two parts. I've used it all, however, and not
bought/found any more since.
[PIC]
Yes!
If you want to make a processor from TTL chips, or from discrete
transistors, or even from valves, well, that's a reasonable thing to want
to do. It's going to be slower than many microprocessors you can buy now
[1], but that's probably not the point. You can't fail to learn a lot
about procesor design by making one.
:) Can you *really* see me soldering hundreds of transistors onto a PCB? I
A bistable (as in an Eccles-Jordan circuit [1]) can be built from just about
any 2 active devices (triodes, transistors, FETs, even relays).
But to make a useful flip-flop you need 4 transistors (2 for the
bistable, 2 for input switching). HP used 4-transistor JK flip-flops in
the HP9100, for example (and if there'd been a simpler way they would
have used it)
[1] Another old idea. The Eccles Jordan paper was published in 1919 IIRC.
Hmm. I *have* got some learning to do...
My electronics books should be here by Tuesday though :)
Eek - self
modifying code? Dangerous....
You mean you _don't_ write self-modifying code? Odd.... Probably. New dot-matrix displays are not cheap, and
surplus ones, while
they normally work fine are not the sort of thing you can depend on still
being available in a few months time...
Maybe I'll just build a teletype... It should be possible to convert a
typewriter ;)
Since you're getting a 'scope, you could try
making a vector display (a
couple of DACs driving the 'scope in X-Y mode). Or you can make a 40*25
text display in about 3 chips (all of them easy to obtain) that will
drive the RGB inputs on a normal TV set.
Actually, that sounds much more promising...
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
12:54 p.m.
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27 Aug
27 Aug
1:21 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
Tony Duell skrev:
> (although I'd say I didn't); having got
into it in the early '80s (about
> '81 I think). Bear in mind I was at primary school at the time, so I have a
> good excuse.... :)
I think what happened to me was that in about 1986 I
managed to buy an
old P850 minicomputer for \pounds 25.00 (it was sold as scrap). The front
panel (toggle switches and filament lamps) is beautiful, so I deceided to
have a go at repairing it. I learnt about how processors worked from that
machine (even though it's very unconventional!), and decided to grab any
other machines that I could and learn about those too.
Unconventional in what way? Is it novel?
> >I think this is lack of experience again. Most
classic HP machines have
> >GPIB
>
> Probably - again, I joined in in the early '80s, so anything that predates
> that I'm unlikely to have used, or even seen...
I'm pretty sure some HP 9000-series Unix boxes have
HPIB disks, BTW...
The 9000/200 series certainly did. In fact, HPIB is the only built-in
interface I can recall there being in our 228.
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
Amiga 4000/040 25MHz/56MB/20GB RetinaBLTZ3/VLab/FastlaneZ3/Ariadne/Toccata
3:20 p.m.
New subject: Decoding Nazi Secrets
That's the Nova this week, for people who
don't necessarily tune in otherwise.
John A.
28 Aug
28 Aug
6:50 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
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12:35 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
On Sat, 25 Aug 2001 01:31:14 +0100 Adrian Vickers
<avickers(a)solutionengineers.com> wrote:
I do *have* a lathe in my garage, but I havn't yet used it
for a classic computer repair...
--
John Honniball
Email: John.Honniball(a)uwe.ac.uk
University of the West of England
for the
jackscrews on the cable connector to screw into. The quickest way
for me to get those is to make them from scratch. More normal people, I
guess, ask a friendly local model engineer...
Should I add a lathe to my list of requirements? :)
8:13 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK (& electronics)
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21 Aug
21 Aug
9:11 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
At 02:30 pm 21/08/2001 -0400, you wrote:
That would be the one :) No keyboard? No problem: I have a keyboard, and a
dead base unit...
In order to
stimulate conversation: Does anyone have a Commodore 8032
mainboard in known working condition that they'd be willing to part with?
I've recently acquired an 8032-SK, but the CPU is dead, two ROMs are
missing, and even adding known working replacements is not enough to breath
life back into this poor wee beastie. So it's got to be a heart/lung/brain
transplant for it - for now, at least.
eBay actually has two:
One from Germany:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266289471
and one from the US:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266958681
Both still have very low prices...
For reference (to other UK readers), it costs $90 to ship an 8032 to the UK
- and that's 4-6wk surface; I dread to think what the airmail price would
be...
Odd when you think that it's possible to fly a whole person (e.g. 200lbs)
to the States & back for the same money...
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
10:17 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
The 200# person is capable of seeing to it he doesn't get hurt, though, while
someone else has to be paid to prevent damage to the computer.
What you might be able to work with the eBay seller is just to ship the
mainboard. How's that sound? Then he can sell the rest again.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Vickers" <avickers(a)solutionengineers.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK
At 02:30 pm 21/08/2001 -0400, you wrote:
That would be the one :) No keyboard? No problem: I have a keyboard, and a
dead base unit...
In order
to stimulate conversation: Does anyone have a Commodore 8032
mainboard in known working condition that they'd be willing to part with?
I've recently acquired an 8032-SK, but the CPU is dead, two ROMs are
missing, and even adding known working replacements is not enough to breath
life back into this poor wee beastie. So it's got to be a heart/lung/brain
transplant for it - for now, at least.
eBay actually has two:
One from Germany:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266289471
and one from the US:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1266958681
Both still have very low prices...
For reference (to other UK readers), it costs $90 to ship an 8032 to the UK
- and that's 4-6wk surface; I dread to think what the airmail price would
be...
Odd when you think that it's possible to fly a whole person (e.g. 200lbs)
to the States & back for the same money...
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
11:07 a.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
At 04:17 pm 21/08/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote:
The 200# person is capable of seeing to it he
doesn't get hurt, though, while
someone else has to be paid to prevent damage to the computer.
True; but the person doesn't come in a box; is required to be served a
meal; needs to be kept warm, aired and pressurised; may get drunk and cause
trouble on board; and if he *does* hurt himself will probably sue the
airline for large amounts of money. A computer, OTOH, just sits there -
sort of rectangularly...
What you might be able to work with the eBay seller is just to ship the
mainboard. How's that sound? Then he can sell the rest again.
Do you know the seller? Unfortunately, my German is completely
non-existant. Even so, I'm not 100% sure whether the monitor will work, and
I'm not risking my only working 8032 mainboard on it... There's one
en-route to to me from the States which I will risk, but that won't get
here before the end of the -SK auction.
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
4:18 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
I certainly don't know the seller, but, if you'll send me details, I'll
happily
email the guy on your behalf and ask him that very question to the extent that
my somewhat inadequate technical German will allow. Perhaps Emanuel Stiebler
could be persuaded to do that, as he probably knows what to call the main board,
which I'd have to ask someone else.
When I left Germany for the last time, in '69, PCB's were not high on my list of
discussion topics. Things have changed, of course, but my vocabulary in German
has not.
Dick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adrian Vickers" <avickers(a)solutionengineers.com>
To: <classiccmp(a)classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: CBM 8032 SK
At 04:17 pm 21/08/2001 -0600, Richard Erlacher wrote:
The 200# person is capable of seeing to it he
doesn't get hurt, though, while
someone else has to be paid to prevent damage to the computer.
True; but the person doesn't come in a box; is required to be served a
meal; needs to be kept warm, aired and pressurised; may get drunk and cause
trouble on board; and if he *does* hurt himself will probably sue the
airline for large amounts of money. A computer, OTOH, just sits there -
sort of rectangularly...
What you might be able to work with the eBay seller is just to ship the
mainboard. How's that sound? Then he can sell the rest again.
Do you know the seller? Unfortunately, my German is completely
non-existant. Even so, I'm not 100% sure whether the monitor will work, and
I'm not risking my only working 8032 mainboard on it... There's one
en-route to to me from the States which I will risk, but that won't get
here before the end of the -SK auction.
Cheers!
Ade.
--
B-Racing: B where it's at :-)
http://www.b-racing.co.uk
22 Aug
22 Aug
12:28 p.m.
New subject: CBM 8032 SK
Richard Erlacher skrev:
I certainly don't know the seller, but, if
you'll send me details, I'll
happily email the guy on your behalf and ask him that very question to the
extent that my somewhat inadequate technical German will allow. Perhaps
Emanuel Stiebler could be persuaded to do that, as he probably knows what to
call the main board, which I'd have to ask someone else.
"Hauptplatine".
When I left Germany for the last time, in '69,
PCB's were not high on my list
of discussion topics. Things have changed, of course, but my vocabulary in
German has not.
Pocket German computer dictionary for anglophones:
Memory - Speicher
Hard disk - Festplatte
Disk drive - Laufwerk
Board - Karte, Platine
Case - Geh?use
Datacomms - DF?
Screen - Bildschirm
Printer - Drucker (Choose between Nadel-, Tintenstrahl- and Laser-)
Keyboard - Tastatur
OS - Betriebssystem
File - Datei
Interface - Schnittstelle
Any useful words I've forgotten?
--
En ligne avec Thor 2.6a.
21 Aug
21 Aug
9:59 a.m.
This list is for discussion of classic computers and
narrowly related
issues. If you want to talk politics or cars, hit the newsgroups. If you
want to respond to an on-topic message with political commentary or flaming,
take it to private email. There is NOTHING that I want less than to be
perceived as heavy-handed or dictatorial, but in the interest of the list
subscribers at large I felt the need to bring this up. There are plenty of
majordomo configuration or filtering solutions available to me that will
address this, but I truely do not want to go that route.
Let's keep the signal-to-noise ratio within reasonable limits. Please?
Thank you!
Personally, it wouldn't bother _me_ at all if people perceived _you_ as
heavy-handed. ;)
Sincerely,
Tom
Applefritter
www.applefritter.com
22 Aug
22 Aug
1:34 a.m.
New subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation
Jay:
I vote for the selective moderation idea. A monthly FAQ is also a good idea.
There are three things that need to be corrected on this list:
- off topic volume is way too high
- we need to eliminate insults, personal attacks, and language that is
obviously intended to offend
- subject lines need to correctly identify the content of the message when
the topic has drifted
Perhaps a warning to offenders, and the knowledge that you *could* put them
on the moderated senders list, might be enough to correct the majority of
the problem posts.
I don't know why, but the other classic computer related lists I am
subscribed to have almost none of these problems. On the others, I at least
glance at each message. On this list, I have been forced to scan for
messages that seem to have relevant subject lines, and delete 97% of the
rest without even looking at them. Effectively, the garbage-senders have
crowded me out of full participation in the list.
On the other hand, I remain subscribed because it is the most active, and
has the highest likelihood of being helpful in a short time when someone
comes up with a question.
--
Jonathan Engdahl???????????????? Rockwell Automation
Principal Research Engineer????? 24800 Tungsten Road
Advanced Technology????????????? Euclid, OH 44117, USA
Euclid Labs????????????????????? engdahl(a)cle.ab.com 216-266-6409
3:59 a.m.
New subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation
Hi,
I vote for the selective moderation idea. A monthly
FAQ is also a good idea.
This sounds like the most sensible option to me as well.
I don't know why, but the other classic computer
related lists I am
subscribed to have almost none of these problems. On the others, I at least
glance at each message. On this list, I have been forced to scan for
messages that seem to have relevant subject lines, and delete 97% of the
rest without even looking at them. Effectively, the garbage-senders have
crowded me out of full participation in the list.
It's not usually much of a problem for me, so long as I have the time to
read the list. But at the moment I'm on holiday, and without my mail
filters for two weeks. Today, it's taken me an hour to read my email, with
a fair bit being classiccmp. (just a small observation)
--Matt
4:51 a.m.
New subject: NOTICE FROM THE LIST HOST -- a vote in favor of limited moderation
Hear, hear!!!! I too have taken to scanning the top line of each message
and end up basically deleting them with the decision made in about .2
seconds. I used to read everything but there is just too much garbage to do
that anymore with my limited time. I do not favor moderation, but I do favor
responsible posting.
Jonathan Engdahl wrote:
Jay:
I vote for the selective moderation idea. A monthly FAQ is also a good idea.
There are three things that need to be corrected on this list:
- off topic volume is way too high
- we need to eliminate insults, personal attacks, and language that is
obviously intended to offend
- subject lines need to correctly identify the content of the message when
the topic has drifted
Perhaps a warning to offenders, and the knowledge that you *could* put them
on the moderated senders list, might be enough to correct the majority of
the problem posts.
I don't know why, but the other classic computer related lists I am
subscribed to have almost none of these problems. On the others, I at least
glance at each message. On this list, I have been forced to scan for
messages that seem to have relevant subject lines, and delete 97% of the
rest without even looking at them. Effectively, the garbage-senders have
crowded me out of full participation in the list.
On the other hand, I remain subscribed because it is the most active, and
has the highest likelihood of being helpful in a short time when someone
comes up with a question.
--
Jonathan Engdahl Rockwell Automation
Principal Research Engineer 24800 Tungsten Road
Advanced Technology Euclid, OH 44117, USA
Euclid Labs engdahl(a)cle.ab.com 216-266-6409
8520
days inactive
8529
days old
115 comments
34 participants
participants (34)
-
allain＠panix.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
avickers＠solutionengineers.com -
bill＠cs.scranton.edu -
bills＠adrenaline.com -
bpope＠wordstock.com -
cmcmanis＠mcmanis.com -
DSEAGRAV＠toad.xkl.com -
dtwright＠uiuc.edu -
edick＠idcomm.com -
engdahl＠cle.ab.com -
erd_6502＠yahoo.com -
foo＠siconic.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
geoffr＠zipcon.net -
h.wolter＠sympatico.ca -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jhellige＠earthlink.net -
jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de -
jlwest＠tseinc.com -
John.Honniball＠uwe.ac.uk -
jrice＠texoma.net -
jss＠subatomix.com -
lgwalker＠mts.net -
marvin＠rain.org -
matt＠pkl.net -
optimus＠canit.se -
owad＠applefritter.com -
pechter＠bg-tc-ppp1451.monmouth.com -
rdd＠smart.net -
sipke＠wxs.nl -
vance＠ikickass.org -
zaft＠azstarnet.com