On 25 Mar 2012 at 10:40, William Donzelli wrote: ...and plenty of fake "rosewood", going back to the 19th century as well as being present on many cheap Chinese knockoff guitar models, so if you go the used route, be very careful. If you're after the "look", consider various painting techniques to simulate the appearance of rosewood (see previous paragraph). There are many dense attractive wood species. Not long ago, I was impressed by a tabletop made of plain old Ipe that was buffed to a glossy finish (no varnish, just good abrasives and some power). --Chuck

I thnik if I was in this position, I'd want to use whatever was used originally by DEC. If thst was genuine rosewood (and so far I've not seen a definite statement that it was), then (alas for the 'greens') that's what I would try to get. I don't think the amount needed to repair _one_ PDP8 would do that much ecological damage.... -tony

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: Ah, of course! I suspect you'll get a better grain with an Ash bat vs one of those silly aluminum "bongers". :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r]

Are you suggesting that he should use rosewood covered with sealskin, inlaid with ivory, and then paint it to look like plastic?

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012, steve shumaker wrote: Don't forget to mix delicately with the tears extracted from the VP of Quality Assurance at Microsoft. Wait, it would be easier to get ground Unicorn horn... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r]

On 03/25/2012 05:24 PM, Eric Smith wrote: ...applied with tiny brushes licked by women working in sweatshop conditions. -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

Now, now. Joking is all very well, but _that_'s just uncivilized. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012, Mouse wrote: Really. Everyone knows a late model Packard Bell board would be a better choice! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r]

On Sun, 25 Mar 2012, Gene Buckle wrote: OWW. But to be fair, they made my favorite 72-pin SIMM tester. Sure, they thought it was a computer... but anything more complex than memtest86+ is too good for it. And the BIOS will read out the PD info for you, which is better than most motherboards of that era. More different types of screws than I've ever seen in one chassis... all the expansion ports are on a daughterboard. Ugh. Alexey

I seem to rememebr needing Bristol Spline tools to take my IBM5155 apart. That;s just about the only modern-ish thing I've eneded them for (they are also nseded for the setscrews in my Flexowriter). I think it;'s time to restate 'ARDs law of DECSA construction' : 'The lower the importance of a part of a DECSA, the more screws hold it in place'. This is demonstrated by the fact that : The logic PCBs plug in to hex-hieght slots with no screws The PSUs are held in by 2 screws each The fan tray is held on by 4 screws The grille over the fan tray is held on by ... 28 screws. I counted them all out and back. -tony

ben wrote: That's true, but well whale oil isn't nearly as good as deep sea whale oil. In all but the largest wells, the whales' growth is too limited, and that results in the oil being too thin. In the larger whales, the oil produced is significantly more viscous. Of course, nowadays well whales are very nearly extinct, so well whale oil is pretty hard to get. Most people whose wells have whales keep that fact secret to avoid attention from poachers.

At 11:42 PM 3/25/2012, Dave McGuire wrote: Two points to Eric for successfully pulling the leg of McGuire. - John

I am amazed that anyone _didn't_ spot it as a spoof at first reading. You mean there's a cahnce they may not have thoguht you to be mad. I am worried... Philip (Belben) once introedcued me by saying 'When you first meet TOny, you may think he's mildly eccentric. When you get to know hi, you will realise there's nothing minor about his eccentricites'. I regard that as a high honour. -tony

I've been mad for f... well, you know. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- God will pardon me. It's His business. -- Heinrich Heine -------------------

On 03/26/2012 02:08 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: Damn. That's all I've got to say. DAMN. ;) -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

On Mon, 26 Mar 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: How deep is your well?

On 25 Mar 2012 at 21:54, Kurt M. Nowak wrote: Kurt, these look like standard 32-sector disks from what I can see (2D, 256-byte record length), but you can verify that by looking to see if there is more than one index hole punched in the "cookie". That is, spin the disk in the jacket a bit and see if you see a bunch of holes appear in the index aperture as you do. A soft-sectored floppy has only one. This can help interested parties determine what you have. --Chuck

On 25 Mar 2012 at 22:30, Kurt M. Nowak wrote: Great--it looks like you'll have some takers. 8" SS media is getting harder to find. Your location might help. --Chuck

Not that anyone would worry but mine arrived safe and sound. Thanks!

On 04/01/2012 03:19 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: Same here. Thank you Kurt! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

On 3/25/2012 3:01 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: No... Paint may contain lead ... skip that idea.

That's my view too... OK, if there were only a few such trees still growing _and nobody was cutting them down_, I probably wouldn't want to cut one down to get the wood. But if there is already some sort of trade in said wood, I don;'t feel the maount needed to make a straight-8 cover will make much differece. I would certainly consider second-hand rosewood, I feel restoring a straight-8 is at least as good a use for it as any other :-) This reminds me of a cartoon that I saw in a UK computing magazineb over 30 years ago. It was a father talking to his son, and the caption read : 'No I am not buying you a computer for Christmas. You seem to think Apples grow on trees' -tony

On 03/26/2012 08:23 PM, James Gessling wrote: That's good and all, but that doesn't change the fact that this is completely ludicrous. Nobody is disputing the evilness of the demise of rosewood. What we're talking about here, though, is a very small amount of RECYCLED rosewood for ONE particularly rare (much rarer than rosewood!) computer. And even if that somehow manages to multiply into ALL Straight-8s in existence, we're talking about enough rosewood to make just about one bedroom dresser. If you shop at Wal*Mart, you're doing FAR more damage to Earth than restoring one Straight-8 with real rosewood. Think about what you're (loudly) saying here. I respectfully submit that you need to get a grip. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

On 03/26/2012 10:05 PM, Mouse wrote: In principle, sure. But we're talking about maybe ten pounds' worth of trees that have already been chopped down, likely 50-100 years ago. I maintain that there is no point to this at all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

On 27/03/12 11:47 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: "Please do not burden those of us who refuse to consider the environment with uncomfortable ideas." --T

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Toby Thain wrote: If I wanted your opinion on what you think I said, I'd tell you what it was. Most likely in a manner that would require the skills of a good plasic surgeon to repair. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r]

In article <CAA3rs23QfLAr_wA1BFOB2uz3eALuV2JAEUiAvkO+kChzwM8n4w at mail.gmail.com>, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com> writes: No. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>

At 10:30 AM 3/27/2012, Jules Richardson wrote: The hides, certainly. The meat is pretty good when fried in a little well whale oil. - John

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Jules Richardson wrote: ...you got to move it, move it! *ahem* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r]

Specifically without commenting on whether the issue is worth worrying about, that is, addressing only this comment: "mind the pence and the pounds will take care of themselves". "Little by little makes a great pile". Thinking in the "one tiny little additional load won't hurt anything" mindset is exactly what got us in the environmental binds we as a species are currently in. As I said, I am specifically not weighing in on whether this issue is worth worrying about in this particular case, especially as compared to all the other environmental loads of restoring and running an 8. I'm just pointing out that this particular argument is completely specious. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

On 03/27/2012 05:05 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: Sure, but how many Straight-8s are there? A handful. This is a self-limiting problem. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

I would bet that restoring a PDP-8 would be way down on the public's list of worthy uses, compared to, for example, restoring a beat up antique Gibson. -- Will

On 27 Mar 2012 at 17:51, William Donzelli wrote: Or the fingerboard on a fine violin--or a clarinet or recorder. Where the "sound quality" of the wood actually makes more than a "doesn't it look pretty" difference on something that stands of chance of being used more than a century. For your PDP-8, use veneer--at least that stretches the supply--and in this application, who's going to know? Somewhat akin to the gold held at Ft. Knox really being gold-plated tungsten bricks. It's not as if it's going to be used for anything, just as long as we *believe* it has value. --Chuck

On 27 Mar 2012 at 19:30, Toby Thain wrote: Do you mean this stuff? http://www.tungsten-alloy.com/en/alloy11.htm I note that they've taken the page promoting fake gold ingots, complete with labeling pages off the site. I wonder why? Or do you mean the gold ingots cast around a tungsten core? Hey, if you never have to use it for anything, other than to show that you've got *lots* of gold, what's the diff if everyone believes you? It's interesting that no one tries to fake rhodium, as it has commercial use and would be quickly found out. Maybe we can get the Chinese to make some fake old-growth rosewood... --Chuck

On 3/27/2012 5:30 PM, Toby Thain wrote: Now in designer colors ...

On 27 Mar 2012 at 22:52, Dave wrote: It depends upon what you want to define as rosewood. East Indian Rosewood or sissoo is sometimes sold as rosewood, but it's not the valuable kind. It is, however, cultivated: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalbergia_sissoo --Chuck

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Dave wrote: Pakistan seems to have lots of "rosewood" available for making bagpipes on the cheap. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Have you heard what those SOUND like?

On 03/27/2012 05:34 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: I believe it is, though, in this case. The reason it would be in other circumstances is that once one person justifies it, everyone will want to do it. Are we losing sight of the fact that "everyone", in this case, means the handful of remaining Straight-8s in the world, and only the subset of those that happen to need new panels? Surely we have better things to get all up in arms about. Who's worrying about that amazing stash of classic gear in Germany that has been left for dead? THOSE aren't something that can be replaced by planting some friggin' seeds. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA

That's missing the point. Your one-off use, my (different) one-off use, someone else's (yet different) one-off use, _that_ is the "everyone" that matters here. Even if each one truly is a one-off, and I suspect that's pretty close to true for PDP-8 restoration, in the aggregate it's still just as much "everyone" as far as its impact goes as it would be if we were talking something like furniture. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: If it takes one tree 100 years to grow to usefulness, . . . . how long will it take if we plant 100 trees?

On Tue, 27 Mar 2012, Toby Thain wrote: There are efforts going on to create harvestable and sustainable groves of dalbergia melanoxylon (African Blackwood) in Africa and Florida. This is the wood most commonly used to make bagpipes and other woodwind instruments. It's been going on since the early 1990s. I'm particularly fascinated by the Florida efforts. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

On 03/27/2012 09:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: One year for the alpha, followed by 99 years of development until stable product release?

Wow, that is a nice rack. -- Will

On 27/03/2012 22:55, William Donzelli wrote: Doesn't the one at MOSI in Manchester look sad in comparision http://emu.msim.org.uk/htmlmn/collections/online/display.php?irn=3022 Dave

Maybe, maybe not. Or both. You would want something to cover the top cut in the wood, because the end grain takes stain very differently than the rest of the wood, and looks really pretty bad. -- Will

On 2012 Mar 28, at 12:24 AM, David Griffith wrote: Perhaps someone associated with Bletchley could wander over, make an examination, take a closeup photo or two and report back as to the construction (hint, hint).

WAITAMINIT! Is this a SIDE panel? If so, just put another identical machine next to it! Then neither machine needs side panels. Other side? Another machine! Last machine in the row? If it's not against a wall, just keep adding more machines! If you don't want to circumnavigate the globe, just plant a rosewood tree alongside the last machine in the row (if you feel the need, label that "In Progress") Front panel? LEAVE IT OPEN! or at most a sheet of plex.

On 3/27/12 2:55 PM, "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote: Even before I scrolled down I thought, "That looks like the Bletchley Park -8." And I was right! Not hard, though - I've never seen another in such beautiful condition. -- Ian

Also, if you open the door for the restoration of a PDP-8 or two, then the furniture restoration people will want the door opened for them as well. And then the musical instrument people. Then the flooring and panelling people. And so on. As I said, and somehow seems to be being swept under the table, is that rosewood is still available, but scarce and pricey. There is a whole army of guys out there that take apart hopeless furniture (and barns!) to get nice hunks of wood for restorations. It may be worth talking to some of these guys, and getting in line for the wood you want. -- Will

On Mar 27, 2012, at 3:56 PM, Tony Duell wrote: I'm late to all this, because my Internet has been out all weekend, but yes. If you buy it new, you are contributing a lot more than you think, because you are one more data point confirming the existence of a market out there for the foresters. It's not entirely dissimilar to elephant ivory and poaching; no, buying one or two little trinkets made of ivory doesn't mean you've personally shot an elephant for a fraction of its tusks, but it does produce a perceived demand. It's not like someone registers an interest in some wood and a logger goes out and chops down a tree for them; there are frightening differential equations that can describe these markets and how the suppliers attempt to keep up with and anticipate demand. Also, depending on where you get your recycled rosewood, you could be doing the same thing if you're not getting it from people who are very specifically trying to quell the overconsumption of rare woods, because you're still indicating a demand in rosewood. Honestly, the argument that "I'm only taking a little, and there are few enough straight-8s in the world to ever make a difference" is foolish on its face. I'd expect better from the members of this list, because you're all quite smart enough to understand the complexities involved in an interconnected, byzantine system like this. Short answer: get it recycled if you must, or from a sustainable farm. After all, we all seem to get our computers "recycled", no? - Dave

Even tiny amounts can accumulate with other tiny amounts for a larger grand total. (After a while the style settles down a bit and it begins to tell you things you really need to know, like the fact that the fabulously beautiful planet Bethselamin is now so worried about the cumulative erosion by ten billion visiting tourists a year that any net imbalance between the amount you eat and the amount you excrete whilst on the planet is surgically removed from your bodyweight when you leave: so every time you go to the lavatory it is vitally important to get a receipt.) -HHGTTG

On 28 Mar 2012 at 23:28, Rob Jarratt wrote: I take it that you aren't employed as a sawyer. A lot of the exotics do not grow in a straight pole as, say, Douglas-fir. Inherent flaws in the wood, checking during drying and the undesirability of sapwood all contribute to waste--and there is a lot of it in hardwoods, particularly when you're after nice clean blemish-free dimensional planks. You may want to do some research on yields before you do your figuring. This stuff ain't PVC that you can squirt out in any shape or length. An awful lot of rosewood goes into small pieces, such as pen casings, fretboards and small flutes and headjoints. A good website on rosewoods, real and otherwise: http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/_discussion_rosewoods. htm --Chuck

This has jack-all to do with PDP-8 anymore, so please do everyone a favor and change the subject line in your replies for easy filtering. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/> Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>