27 Dec
2012
27 Dec
'12
9:51 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Sudbrink" <wh.sudbrink at verizon.net>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 27, 2012 9:45 AM
Subject: RE: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming
Dave wrote:
Where things really count (embedded, real-time systems)
those practices are still maintained. Although I will
say that recent CS grads with their "extreme programming"
and all of that happy horse sh*t are harder to bring on
board these days. Consequently, we're hiring fewer and
fewer "young" programmers these days... let them get
their lumps on someone else's dime, we'll take the older
more experienced guys that have learned why good practices
are important.
Bill S.
Yup, everyone is waiting for somebody else to train them, good luck with
that.
27 Dec
27 Dec
10:17 a.m.
On 12/27/2012 09:51 AM, TeoZ wrote:
Bill wasn't stating a theory that might be nice to try, he pointed out
a current industry practice. It is in place and works well.
In my company, just a data point, our app developers are all "pretty
boys" in their early twenties writing in Java using libraries (and in
some cases, algorithms!) that were developed in the past 2-4 WEEKS. The
guy writing the firmware (me!) is 43. There's a reason for this. ;)
Not to disparage the app-side guys at all, mind you...They (and one
guy in particular) are absolute top-notch developers, and are some of
the sharpest, smartest programmers I've ever had the honor of working
with. They just approach things very differently.
One conversation that sticks in my mind, that I had a few months ago
with Chuck, the "one guy in particular" I alluded to above...easily one
of the sharpest two or three programmers I've met in my career...He said
(paraphrased) "I won't use library if it hasn't had any development
activity in a month or so". My response was "I don't use one if it HAS
had development activity in a YEAR or so!" In his side, where updates
involve a quick scp of an executable to the server, being "maintained"
is more important. In my side, where updates involve burning a ROM,
being "stable" is more important. *I* will "maintain" the code if
necessary, if the original developer has abandoned it.
Both approaches are correct in their particular contexts. They are
different mindsets. The latter one, however, does not appear to be
being taught in schools today.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Where things
really count (embedded, real-time systems)
those practices are still maintained. Although I will
say that recent CS grads with their "extreme programming"
and all of that happy horse sh*t are harder to bring on
board these days. Consequently, we're hiring fewer and
fewer "young" programmers these days... let them get
their lumps on someone else's dime, we'll take the older
more experienced guys that have learned why good practices
are important.
Yup, everyone is waiting for somebody else to train them, good luck with
that. 
29 Dec
29 Dec
11:59 p.m.
In article <2187A42E83D446DB88BCD6B5EFEF8644 at hd2600xt6a04f7>,
"TeoZ" <teoz at neo.rr.com> writes:
From: "Bill Sudbrink" <wh.sudbrink at
verizon.net>
In the past year I have interviewed more people than I have
interviewed in the previous 30. (That's the difference between
working for a company that is growing rapidly and one that's having
layoffs.)
I have interviewed both junior and senior engineers. The positions
were for engineers that know C++ and Java. We have hired junior
engineers and fewer senior engineers, simply because we have more
implementation than design on our plate. Several of the senior people
that I have interviewed have basically sat on their hands for 20-30
years and were amazingly ignorant of the current state of affairs in
software engineering.
In contrast, the junior engineers that we've hired were more
experienced in things like agile development, automated testing
and refactoring.
If you're not spending time making yourself better,
you'll cease being good.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
[...] Consequently, we're hiring fewer and
fewer "young" programmers these days... let them get
their lumps on someone else's dime, we'll take the older
more experienced guys that have learned why good practices
are important.
Yup, everyone is waiting for somebody else to train them, good luck with
that.
30 Dec
30 Dec
7:40 a.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard" <legalize at xmission.com>
To: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: An interesting article on text-book vrs real-world programming
In article <2187A42E83D446DB88BCD6B5EFEF8644 at hd2600xt6a04f7>,
"TeoZ" <teoz at neo.rr.com> writes:
I think people cease being good when they just don't care about what they
are doing anymore, its just a paycheck. People who have 20-30 years in any
industry tend to be very good at their niche but they are also doing more
paperwork and sitting in meetings then worrying about the current state of
tools. New people come in with new ideas, older people have experience
getting things done, and those in the middle get to figure out how to get
things done with the new ideas. Once that process gets damaged from lack of
new hiring, wholesale outsourcing, or just massive layoffs the system tends
to screw up in costly ways.
From: "Bill Sudbrink" <wh.sudbrink
at verizon.net>
In the past year I have interviewed more people than I have
interviewed in the previous 30. (That's the difference between
working for a company that is growing rapidly and one that's having
layoffs.)
I have interviewed both junior and senior engineers. The positions
were for engineers that know C++ and Java. We have hired junior
engineers and fewer senior engineers, simply because we have more
implementation than design on our plate. Several of the senior people
that I have interviewed have basically sat on their hands for 20-30
years and were amazingly ignorant of the current state of affairs in
software engineering.
In contrast, the junior engineers that we've hired were more
experienced in things like agile development, automated testing
and refactoring.
If you're not spending time making yourself better,
you'll cease being good. [...] Consequently, we're hiring fewer and
fewer "young" programmers these days... let them get
their lumps on someone else's dime, we'll take the older
more experienced guys that have learned why good practices
are important.
Yup, everyone is waiting for somebody else to train them, good luck with
that.
3:44 p.m.
In article <BA62757FB6E34DAAA346FA4560ACAB08 at hd2600xt6a04f7>,
"TeoZ" <teoz at neo.rr.com> writes:
I think people cease being good when they just
don't care about what they
are doing anymore, its just a paycheck.
I agree and I have seen this attitude in people fresh out of college
as well as people who have been in industry a long time (and have
always had that attitude).
We don't hire people with that attitude.
People who have 20-30 years in any
industry tend to be very good at their niche but they are also doing more
paperwork and sitting in meetings then worrying about the current state of
tools.
Odd. I've been paid to write software for about 35 years and I don't
find this to be true of myself or of my colleagues who have similar
amounts of time writing code.
However, there is a point where if you want your salary to continue
rising, you have to stop writing code and become a manager. I think
that is the thing that takes you out of the loop when it comes to good
practice in writing software. There's nothing wrong with that as long
as you're not deluding yourself as a manager that you are still on the
cutting technical edge of current practice. My manager, regularly
defers to the team on technical issues and concentrates more on the
business resource allocation problems.
Getting back to the problems described in the register article, I
invite all of you to go watch Brian Foote's google tech talk video on
the "Big Ball of Mud". <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6Y9aJhqO78>
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
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mcguire＠neurotica.com -
teoz＠neo.rr.com -
wh.sudbrink＠verizon.net