4 Dec
2019
4 Dec
'19
5:35 a.m.
To continue validating modem functionality, I think it makes sense to
set up a closed loop phone system in my lab that will function well
enough to allow modems to connect to each other (dial tone, ringing,
busy signal, etc.).
I know I can probably whip something up with a 9 v battery and a piece
of cable with rj11s, but I think that will fall short.
That said, I went out to eBay to see if I could source a 2-8 line
something to help, and got smacked around with my lack of telephone
system knowledge.
So, any ideas (or links to eBay auctions) of brands/models/etc. I should
focus on?
Also, if anyone has any modems lying around gathering dust, I probably
should source a few more models. tcpser handles Hayes "+++" spec
correctly, but I should probably support TIES as well, to cite one example.
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
4 Dec
4 Dec
6:25 a.m.
On 12/3/19 9:35 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote:
So, any ideas (or links to eBay auctions) of
brands/models/etc. I should
focus on?
I would purchase a Partner system from AT&T / Lucent / Avaya. I think
they are both analog and digital. The analog will work for modems. You
will likely need a digital set with display to program things.
I should clarify, /each/ line is both digital and analog. This is nicer
than older Nortel Norstar systems that I've worked with which needed
additional equipment equipment, Analog Terminal Adapter, as they were
(by default) purely digital lines.
Note: You might not be able to get anything faster than 33.6 without
some more effort and / or more specialized phone equipment.
There's always the VoIP route, but that's an even deeper, darker,
steeper, and more slippery rabbit hole.
Partner systems will likely be 8 analog lines that can be used in short
order.
My biggest concern with a Partner system would be the dial plan. As in,
will the modems, or other communications applications be okay with a two
digit phone number? Or do you need to make the phone system use longer
phone numbers. (As I type this, I seem to remember Nortel systems
having an option. I bet Partner systems do too.) I'd cross this
particular bridge when you get there, if you get there.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
6:25 a.m.
On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 8:35 PM Jim Brain via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
That said, I went out to eBay to see if I could source a 2-8 line
something to help, and got smacked around with my lack of telephone
system knowledge.
So, any ideas (or links to eBay auctions) of brands/models/etc. I should
focus on?
When I worked in a group that was doing modem related software over 20
years ago two of the telephone line simulators we used were from
Teltone and from TAS.
You can find Teltone TLS-2, 3, 4, and 5 boxes on eBay. The TLS-2 and
TLS-3 are two line boxes, the TLS-4 and TLS-5 are four line boxes. If
I remember correctly we had a TLS-5 model that could do more advanced
things like Call Waiting and Caller ID signalling. If you're patient
you might find a reasonable deal on one of these. Search eBay for
"Teltone TLS" and look at completed item sale prices.
The TAS Telephone Network Emulators were much more serious pieces of
complex programmable test equipment. We had a big TAS Series II box,
which was looped through an additional TAS 240 voiceband subscriber
loop emulator which could introduce various impairments on the line.
If you search eBay for "TAS telphone emulator" you'll see some of
those boxes. Doesn't look like those are typically cheap unless they
are likely broken, and they are bigger and heavier than you would want
to deal with anyway.
I might have a Teltone TLS-3 that I don't really need. The only
problem would be finding it hidden under other stuff...
6:40 p.m.
On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 12:26 AM Glen Slick via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
When I worked in a group that was doing modem related
software over 20
years ago two of the telephone line simulators we used were from
Teltone and from TAS.
You can find Teltone TLS-2, 3, 4, and 5 boxes on eBay. The TLS-2 and
TLS-3 are two line boxes, the TLS-4 and TLS-5 are four line boxes.
I have a TLS-4 box. It's handy. We got it because we were developing
our own TelCo simulator, 2 line, but you could dial different numbers
to simulate different connection failure conditions (busy, fast busy,
half-connect...) We did end up shipping our own box but it wasn't a
big seller. It was fantastic to have around, though, when I was
writing autodialer software for our product and I needed to simulate
different external events on demand to test error reporting and
recovery.
I can definitely recommend the TLS products for a small setup.
-ethan
P.S. - I know where my TLS-4 is and this thread reminds me I need to
find the manual for it. I could bring it and some other gear to a
Vintage Computer Fest for a display that's centered around serial
comms and dialup.
4:37 p.m.
On Dec 3, 2019, at 8:35 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
So, any ideas (or links to eBay auctions) of
brands/models/etc. I should focus on?
I recommend building an Asterisk PBX using either a junker PC or a Raspberry Pi. If you
use a PC then you can get a cheap/clone TDM400P PCI card and configure it with whatever
combination of FXS and FXO modules you want. I have mine setup with three FXS modules to
go to phones/modems and one FXO to go to a phone line.
If you want to be able to use rotary phones I recommend adding a Grandstream HT502. I
picked up 4 of them in a lot off eBay for $20 shipped last year. I built myself a
micro-PBX using a Raspberry Pi and a HT502 all embedded in a small case which fits neatly
under a Western Electric 500 phone. Unfortunately I still haven't gotten around to
making a blog post or video with the exact details of how I built the micro-PBX, but
here's the Twitter thread on it:
https://twitter.com/FozzTexx/status/998980675620429825?s=20
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
5:26 p.m.
Whats wrong with DIGI-PULSE __
?On 4/12/2019, 11:37 PM, "cctalk on behalf of fozztexx--- via cctalk"
<cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Dec 3, 2019, at 8:35 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
So, any ideas (or links to eBay auctions) of
brands/models/etc. I should focus on?
I recommend building an Asterisk PBX using either a junker PC or a Raspberry Pi. If
you use a PC then you can get a cheap/clone TDM400P PCI card and configure it with
whatever combination of FXS and FXO modules you want. I have mine setup with three FXS
modules to go to phones/modems and one FXO to go to a phone line.
If you want to be able to use rotary phones I recommend adding a Grandstream HT502. I
picked up 4 of them in a lot off eBay for $20 shipped last year. I built myself a
micro-PBX using a Raspberry Pi and a HT502 all embedded in a small case which fits neatly
under a Western Electric 500 phone. Unfortunately I still haven't gotten around to
making a blog post or video with the exact details of how I built the micro-PBX, but
here's the Twitter thread on it:
https://twitter.com/FozzTexx/status/998980675620429825?s=20
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
9:07 p.m.
On 12/4/19 8:37 AM, fozztexx--- via cctalk wrote:
I recommend building an Asterisk PBX using either a
junker PC or a
Raspberry Pi.
What sort of connection speeds are you getting?
What codec(s) are you using? ulaw / alaw / something else?
What protocol(s) are you using? SIP / IAX / SCCP (a.k.a. skinny)?
What sort of dial plan are you using?
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
5 Dec
5 Dec
3:01 a.m.
On Dec 4, 2019, at 12:07 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
What sort of connection speeds are you getting?
What codec(s) are you using? ulaw / alaw / something else?
https://www.insentricity.com/a.cl/230/using-modems-without-phone-lines
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
3:28 a.m.
On 12/4/19 7:01 PM, Chris Osborn via cctalk wrote:
Thank you for the link to the write up.
I'm glad to learn that you're getting close to the 33.6, what I
understand to be the pure analog maximum.
I guess that since you're using the TDM400P, you aren't using a VoIP
protocol (SIP / IAX / SCCP / MGCP / etc.) between your FXS ports. But
you are using SIP as your external DID.
I don't see any information about a dial plan.
What sort of numbers are you dialing between your FXS ports?
How many digits are they?
Do you have to dial a 9, or any other digit, to make an outside call? Or
are you determining this by the number that you're calling or number of
digits therein?
I've often wondered about doing this myself for reasons. So I'm quite
curious what sort of experience others have in doing it, as well as
technical details.
Also, I'm glad to find your blog. I follow you on Twitter and will add
your blog to my RSS reader. :-)
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
2:47 a.m.
If you go the Pi route, a ADIT600 is a good option. Get one with three FXS
8C cards and a VOIP Router card. This works great for upto 28.8 / 33.6 from
my experience.
-DK
On Wed, Dec 4, 2019, 10:37 AM fozztexx--- via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Dec 3, 2019, at 8:35 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
So, any ideas (or links to eBay auctions) of
brands/models/etc. I should
focus on?
I recommend building an Asterisk PBX using either a junker PC or a
Raspberry Pi. If you use a PC then you can get a cheap/clone TDM400P PCI
card and configure it with whatever combination of FXS and FXO modules you
want. I have mine setup with three FXS modules to go to phones/modems and
one FXO to go to a phone line.
If you want to be able to use rotary phones I recommend adding a
Grandstream HT502. I picked up 4 of them in a lot off eBay for $20 shipped
last year. I built myself a micro-PBX using a Raspberry Pi and a HT502 all
embedded in a small case which fits neatly under a Western Electric 500
phone. Unfortunately I still haven't gotten around to making a blog post or
video with the exact details of how I built the micro-PBX, but here's the
Twitter thread on it:
https://twitter.com/FozzTexx/status/998980675620429825?s=20
--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com
7:20 a.m.
On 12/4/2019 7:47 PM, David Kuder via cctalk wrote:
If you go the Pi route, a ADIT600 is a good option.
Get one with three FXS
8C cards and a VOIP Router card. This works great for upto 28.8 / 33.6 from
my experience.
Been reading up on all the units.? On this one:
Do you have to have a VOIP card?? I just want to talk within the PBX.
Where does one source those connectors for the various lines?
Can an 8B card be OK (I see some on eBay)?
JIm
4:02 p.m.
As an example of a unit that should work:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/CAC-Carrier-Access-Adit-600-TDM-Controller-CMG-01-…
The FXS cards output out the back using a 50-pin / 25-pair AMP telephone cable. Look for
RJ21 breakout, RJ21 octapus, or RJ21 hydra cables. You could also go the 66-block &
AMP cable route if you want something more permanent that is mounted to a wall somewhere.
I was lucky to find a RJ21 breakout module on ebay that had 6 "8P8C" jacks in a
tiny housing.
The important bits are the CMG card, and the 8C cards. You can get by with earlier FXS
cards, but the 4th & 5th gen FXS cards don't do caller ID and aren't as
flexible on what line types they can simulate. The ADIT itself isn't a PBX, but a
channel bank. It just converts between analog and digital formats, without an asterisk or
other switch to talk to, it can't do much beyond convert between T1 lines and analog
extensions. The CMG card talks to asterisk over MGCP, and will give you 48 virtual T1
channels, you can sent them out the T1 jacks on the back of the ADIT, or convert some of
them to analog FXS channels.
Karl Brose over on the c-netlist ( https://groups.io/g/c-netlist ) is an expert of sorts
on these units and has been an immense help getting mine working. He has a patched
Asterisk source tree with a modified MGCP driver called chan_xgcp that makes everything
work better. I was able to get his help setting up my system for VCF Midwest in Chicago,
he provided the drivers and example configs that worked well.
-DK
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Jim Brain via cctalk
Sent: Thursday, December 5, 2019 1:21 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: PBX (or something) for modem testing
On 12/4/2019 7:47 PM, David Kuder via cctalk wrote:
If you go the Pi route, a ADIT600 is a good option.
Get one with three
FXS 8C cards and a VOIP Router card. This works great for upto 28.8 /
33.6 from my experience.
Been reading up on all the units. On this one:
Do you have to have a VOIP card? I just want to talk within the PBX.
Where does one source those connectors for the various lines?
Can an 8B card be OK (I see some on eBay)?
JIm
5:57 p.m.
New subject: RSTS emulation in a browser
Back in 2000, Jay Jaeger generously helped me read some old backup tapes
from a RSTS V7.0-07 system.
I'm not sure why I hadn't tried before, but I recently thought I could
try to run those circa-1982 BASIC-PLUS and FORTRAN programs under emulation.
And maybe even in a browser. There's a JavaScript emulator at:
https://skn.noip.me/pdp11/pdp11.html
I can 'boot rl2' on that web site and it runs, but when I try to
run it locally in a browser, it hangs.
Am I missing something simple?
That page is maintained by Paul Nankervis <paulnank @ hotmail.com>.
- John
7 Dec
7 Dec
4:07 a.m.
New subject: RSTS emulation in a browser
On 12/5/2019 10:57 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
Back in 2000, Jay Jaeger generously helped me read some old backup tapes
from a RSTS V7.0-07 system.
I'm not sure why I hadn't tried before, but I recently thought I could
try to run those circa-1982 BASIC-PLUS and FORTRAN programs under emulation.
And maybe even in a browser. There's a JavaScript emulator at:
https://skn.noip.me/pdp11/pdp11.html
I can 'boot rl2' on that web site and it runs, but when I try to
run it locally in a browser, it hangs.
Am I missing something simple?
That page is maintained by Paul Nankervis <paulnank @ hotmail.com>.
- John
When I try and contact the site, it times out / can't connect, though I
did manage to get an index listing by leaving off the pdp11.html.
Not quite sure what you mean by trying to run it "locally". Is it that
you downloaded pdp11.zip and unzipped it and pointed at that as a file
URL? Or did you copy it to a local web server you have?
There are at least three files involved, I spect: pdp11.html, pdp11.js
and bootcode.js, and probably vt11,js, pdp-11-45.svg and pdp11-70.svg as
well.
JRJ
5:18 p.m.
New subject: RSTS emulation in a browser
To answer your question, yes, yuo can down a compacted file or another
and it will be able to run locally (done that but not tried yet)
It does time out (but if you let it sit, suddenly it pops up, it seems
to be at some sort of dynamic IP address that takes a bit to pop up.
hope this hellps.
bb
On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 10:07 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 12/5/2019 10:57 AM, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
Back in 2000, Jay Jaeger generously helped me read some old backup tapes
from a RSTS V7.0-07 system.
I'm not sure why I hadn't tried before, but I recently thought I could
try to run those circa-1982 BASIC-PLUS and FORTRAN programs under emulation.
And maybe even in a browser. There's a JavaScript emulator at:
https://skn.noip.me/pdp11/pdp11.html
I can 'boot rl2' on that web site and it runs, but when I try to
run it locally in a browser, it hangs.
Am I missing something simple?
That page is maintained by Paul Nankervis <paulnank @ hotmail.com>.
- John
When I try and contact the site, it times out / can't connect, though I
did manage to get an index listing by leaving off the pdp11.html.
Not quite sure what you mean by trying to run it "locally". Is it that
you downloaded pdp11.zip and unzipped it and pointed at that as a file
URL? Or did you copy it to a local web server you have?
There are at least three files involved, I spect: pdp11.html, pdp11.js
and bootcode.js, and probably vt11,js, pdp-11-45.svg and pdp11-70.svg as
well.
JRJ
10:12 p.m.
New subject: RSTS emulation in a browser
At 09:07 PM 12/6/2019, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:
When I try and contact the site, it times out /
can't connect, though I
did manage to get an index listing by leaving off the pdp11.html.
I also saw the time?outs but a retry usually fixed it.
Not quite sure what you mean by trying to run it
"locally". Is it that
you downloaded pdp11.zip and unzipped it and pointed at that as a file URL?
Yes, loading pdp11.html locally. Should work, no?
Or did you copy it to a local web server you have?
Yes, I've done that, and it runs fine there.
There are at least three files involved, I spect:
pdp11.html, pdp11.js
and bootcode.js, and probably vt11,js, pdp-11-45.svg and pdp11-70.svg as
well.
Yes, I've been wishing it was better documented. But all the source is there.
- John
10 Dec
10 Dec
5:51 a.m.
New subject: RSTS emulation in a browser
On 12/7/2019 3:12 PM, John Foust via cctech wrote:
At 09:07 PM 12/6/2019, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:
No, not necessarily. A web server provides a content header based on
its own internal configuration. For local files, it is determined
locally, and so might be different.
Also it is possible that there are some file references in there that
are not purely relative or that there is another file that is not there.
One would have to look at the .html and .js files to see.
When I try and contact the site, it times out /
can't connect, though I
did manage to get an index listing by leaving off the pdp11.html.
I also saw the time?outs but a retry usually fixed it.
Not quite sure what you mean by trying to run it
"locally". Is it that
you downloaded pdp11.zip and unzipped it and pointed at that as a file URL?
Yes, loading pdp11.html locally. Should work, no?
Or did you
copy it to a local web server you have?
Yes, I've done that, and it runs fine there.
There are at least three files involved, I spect:
pdp11.html, pdp11.js
and bootcode.js, and probably vt11,js, pdp-11-45.svg and pdp11-70.svg as
well.
Yes, I've been wishing it was better documented. But all the source is there.
- John
6:28 p.m.
New subject: RSTS emulation in a browser
At 10:51 PM 12/9/2019, Jay Jaeger wrote:
No, not necessarily. A web server provides a content
header based on
its own internal configuration. For local files, it is determined
locally, and so might be different.
Also it is possible that there are some file references in there that
are not purely relative or that there is another file that is not there.
One would have to look at the .html and .js files to see.
The code looks pretty flat; no folders. It didn't even need any
tweaks for file permissions when I uploaded to a web server. The
HTML mentions two .js files fpp.js and vg11.js that aren't present
on his web or in the zip, but it runs without them. It's not trying
to write back to the DSK files, it just keeps an in-memory cache
when it's running. I imagined it was something related to security
in a local browser.
I tried emailing the author but no response yet.
<http://pdp11.aiju.de/>http://pdp11.aiju.de/ seems to be a different, simpler PDP
emulator
written in JavaScript.
- John
9:04 p.m.
New subject: RSTS emulation in a browser
Downloaded files for previous PDP-11 emulator but couldn't get it to
run. Link to German site at bottom of your post works fine and Unix
runs about same speed that it ran on my 11/34 in 1983. Scary that
coding a PDP-11 emulator in an incredibly inefficient scripting
language such as Javascript matches speed of the machine I was using
back then. That slowness just applies to Unix; all of my code back
then was written in PDP-11 assembler which allowed data sampling at
20 KHz from A/D and essentially bypassed most of RT-11 to get
speed. Will play around more with this emulator when have time.
Unfortunately, a lot of people now seem to think that Javascript can
be used to code large projects such as the provincial system which
allows one to access patients reports and lab results from whole
province; my comment to them was that it does a great simulation of a
paper chart but also emulating a sloth with a fondness for
barbiturates turning chart pages made it essentially useless.
At 10:51 PM 12/9/2019, Jay Jaeger wrote:
No, not necessarily. A web server provides a
content header based on
its own internal configuration. For local files, it is determined
locally, and so might be different.
Also it is possible that there are some file references in there that
are not purely relative or that there is another file that is not there.
One would have to look at the .html and .js files to see.
The code looks pretty flat; no folders. It didn't even need any
tweaks for file permissions when I uploaded to a web server. The
HTML mentions two .js files fpp.js and vg11.js that aren't present
on his web or in the zip, but it runs without them. It's not trying
to write back to the DSK files, it just keeps an in-memory cache
when it's running. I imagined it was something related to security
in a local browser.
I tried emailing the author but no response yet.
<http://pdp11.aiju.de/>http://pdp11.aiju.de/ seems to be a
different, simpler PDP emulator
written in JavaScript.
- John
10:09 p.m.
New subject: RSTS emulation in a browser
At 02:04 PM 12/10/2019, Boris Gimbarzevsky wrote:
Downloaded files for previous PDP-11 emulator but
couldn't get it to run. Link to German site at bottom of your post works fine and
Unix runs about same speed that it ran on my 11/34 in 1983. Scary that coding a PDP-11
emulator in an incredibly inefficient scripting language such as Javascript matches speed
of the machine I was using back then.
Google says JavaScript is now only two to seven times slower than C++.
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJPdhx5zTaw>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJPdhx5zTaw
https://blog.reactiveconf.com/5-reasons-why-javascript-is-eating-the-world-…
- John
14 Dec
14 Dec
6:11 a.m.
New subject: RSTS emulation in a browser (now "FILMGR")
Another RSTS question. One of my rescued tapes has only several
files with the extension ".FLB" Compared to other files of the
sets, these are relatively large... up to a meg or so.
In a text file on another related tape, a manager wrote "Learn
how to use FILMGR, which is invoked by DO FILMGR. It keeps
storage space down."
Sounds like archiving and compression. Google is no help.
I looked at DECUS RSTS lists and didn't see it.
Does anyone remember a program called FILMGR for RSTS/e 7
circa 1982? Does "FLB" mean "file library"?
- John
16 Dec
16 Dec
4:23 a.m.
New subject: RSTS emulation in a browser (now "FILMGR")
At 11:11 PM 12/13/2019, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
Another RSTS question. One of my rescued tapes has
only several
files with the extension ".FLB" Compared to other files of the
sets, these are relatively large... up to a meg or so.
I'd found some RAD-50 filenames in the headers at constant positions,
names like I24J19.DAT and K82LOG.DAT. Not the source code I was
hoping for - maybe some kind of login/logout logs, or program usage logs.
The smaller FLB files seem to contain some text and code
fragments, confirming the idea that it didn't bother to
compress the last partial block of a file.
Someone on comp.sys.dec thought they might be from the FMS-11
forms management system but that doesn't make sense based on
the contents I see so far.
- John
17 Dec
17 Dec
3:25 p.m.
New subject: RSTS emulation in a browser (now "FILMGR")
At 09:23 PM 12/15/2019, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
At 11:11 PM 12/13/2019, John Foust via cctalk wrote:
>Another RSTS question. One of my rescued tapes has only several
>files with the extension ".FLB" Compared to other files of the
>sets, these are relatively large... up to a meg or so.
And in digging through the 1000+ files on these backups,
I found some code that I had written back in '82 that
bursts these FLB files back into their constituent files.
So weird to have forgotten it all, so weird to find my own code.
Yes, they could've been created by some UW-Madison home-grown
tool that bundled files together.
So has anyone uploaded ready-to-use DSK images with all of RSTS
in them? I'd like the full BASIC-PLUS and FORTRAN environment
at my fingers. Or do I need to build them myself from TAP images?
- John
1820
days inactive
1833
days old
22 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
821＠128.ca -
bobsmithofd＠gmail.com -
boris＠summitclinic.com -
brain＠jbrain.com -
cctalk＠gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net -
cube1＠charter.net -
dk＠thewaffleiron.net -
dkgrizzly＠thewaffleiron.net -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
fozztexx＠fozztexx.com -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com