- test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org - classiccmp.org

by dm561＠torfree.net

-----------Original Message: Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 08:32:02 +0000 From: Gordon JC Pearce <gordonjcp at gjcp.net> Subject: Re: Speaking of multiple processors... On Thu, 2007-11-15 at 00:32 -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Didn't that "Superbrain" computer use a couple of Z80 chips in there? IIRC, > one was the "main" CPU and the other one handled I/O tasks of some sort > (disk?). <snip> It does. I believe one handles disk accesses, while the other does the rest. Once I get mine working, I'll tell you more.<snip> Gordon ----------Reply: Cromemco also had Z80s on their I/O processor boards, and when the later 680x0 CPU boards dropped the Z80 you could still run your Z80 programs on the I/O card. mike

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Software for Data I/O 280 programmer?

by derschjo＠msu.edu

I picked up a Data I/O 280 programmer this weekend, without manuals or software. According to Data I/O's webpage, it's no longer supported at all, so they have nothing available for download/purchase/whatever. Anyone have software/manuals/anything for this thing? Thanks as always, Josh

18 years, 9 months

10
18
0 0

Commodore 65 = $5,000

by spectre＠floodgap.com

Admittedly, I was mulling over it too. This one is not only a real 65, it's apparently in mostly working order (as much as any of the extant 65s are). http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230190927853 -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Burglar alarms: For the man who has everything! ----------------------------

18 years, 9 months

20
41
0 0

How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards)

by trag＠io.com

> Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 16:34:45 -0900 > From: Grant Stockly <grant at stockly.com> > At 03:17 PM 11/14/2007, you wrote: >> > The LAG is labeled "HAL16R8CN 8440 / 342-0251-A" so it does look like >> a >> > custom ("HAL") chip such as what Tony was mentioning. Guess that >> would >>I will try to find all my notes on the Mac+ (but not tonight!). I know I >>never figured out the PAL equations, but I might have something of use. > > There are equations for the PALs on my website: > http://www.stockly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6 Wow, Grant, that's a really cool website. Where have you been hiding? That is a very cool project. I keep my eyes open for other folks who actually like to tinker with Mac hardware in a circuit board sense and they are few and far between. Even the over-clocking enthusiasts try to avoid soldering at every turn, for the most part. Will you have to rewrite some of the firmware (ROM contents) in order to change the timing of your project and gain the extra speed? Also, have you looked at the Brainstorm accelerator at all--the one which simply added a 16 MHz CPU on top of the original? It had a replacement BUG I think and a small amount of firmware. Jeff Walther

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

S100 Floppy Controller Question

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question > From: M H Stein <dm561 at torfree.net> > Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 04:21:34 -0500 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >---------Original Messages: >Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:48:21 -0500 >From: Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> >Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question >> >>Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question >> From: M H Stein <dm561 at torfree.net> >> Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:13:48 -0500 >> To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > ><snip> >> >>I think you might have misunderstood, Allison; sounds like you thought I was >>talking about replacing an FDC with one other than what the BIOS is configured >>for; obviously that will require mods to the BIOS. > >Ok, then same fdc but sufficiently differnt drive requires new (modified) bios. > >Changes that affect a bios: > > Motor on/motor runs continiously. > > Step rate, head load delay, motor on delay > > Different on disk format (likely with 8 to 5") > > >>What I was responding to was a previous post that suggested replacing an 8" >>drive with a 5 1/4" HD drive might require mods to the BIOS, and I just wanted >>to mention that this is not the case with a Cromemco 16/64FDC, to which a >>TM848 and a JU475 appear identical as long as the jumpers on the 5 1/4 drive >>are set correctly and it supplies /READY, and that this may also apply to some >>other controllers. Also, if the controller has both 8" and 5 1/4 connectors and >>they are effectively in parallel as they are on the Cromemco, you may not >>even need a 50<>34 pin adapter cable. > >if the drive supplies ready _MAYBE_. If the Drive has the same step rate. > >-------------Reply: > >Well, I should know better than to argue (again ;-) with you of all people, but... > >Since we're talking about 'modern' 5 1/4" HD drives, Motor on and Ready >are jumper selectable on all the drives I've run across, step rates etc. are >faster than the 8" equivalent (except perhaps the PerScis), and with the >same speed and data rate the disk formats are identical, no? the drive used are a factor and many of the later designed systems had what could be described as an adaptive, they have a bios written to accomodate a wider variety of drives. >In any case I'm only specifically talking about my Cromemco system and it >seems to work fine for me. It gives me 1.1 MB on a 5 1/4HD diskette instead >of 360KB and lets me deal with both 5 1/4 and 8" images conveniently in a >single 5 1/4" FH bay box, without the complication of the 24V supply, 50 pin >cable, unreliable old 8" drives etc. To initially read & convert my 8" disks I just >temporarily plugged an external drive w/PS into the unused 50 pin connector. >I haven't tried it yet, but it should also make recreating an 8" image on a PC >easier, and it puts some 5 1/4HD drives & disks to a good use, which otherwise >would end up on the shelf or in the trash since I don't use them on PCs. Cromemco is one such example and much later than Altair/Tarbell. >After installing the drive I happened to run across some old posts in the archives >dealing with this very topic (on a Cromemco); apparently it was easy and worked >fine for some and not for others. I just wanted to add my name to the former >group in case it had relevance to someone else with a Cromemco FDC or >_perhaps_ even with a different make of controller if it's similar, and especially >mention to one of the original posters that it might not be necessary to kludge up a >50<>34 pin adapter cable (which he was reluctant to make) if the two interfaces >on his FDC are handled the same way as on the Cromemco FDC. Same was the case for AmproLB, SB180, and Compupro. Generally most fo the floppies are close to "setup, plug and play". However really old drives for example SA800, SA400 it's fairly easy to get the signals right but things like 40ms step rate (sa400) and 12ms step rate(sa800) have to be driven by software. After about 1981/82 design had fewer problems and 5.25 floppies started to look more alike than different electronically. The gotchas still lurk out there. Allison >mike

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Tarbell is making me insane

by jvdg＠sparcpark.net

> I had that a work once it was dust in the drives scaring the disks > after one or two uses. > > Reaaon, PC suck air out of the box, where does it come in? Any ways it > can and through the floppy was one path. True enough. Actually, the first NeXT Cubes had their MO drives fail regularly due to the fan sucking dust in through the drive slot(s). When bringing the machine in for repair, the fan would be reversed to alleviate the problem. Later Cubes were manufactured with the fan blowing in as standard. ,xtG tsooJ

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

S100 Floppy Controller Question

by dm561＠torfree.net

---------Original Messages: Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 07:48:21 -0500 From: Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question > >Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question > From: M H Stein <dm561 at torfree.net> > Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:13:48 -0500 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> <snip> > >I think you might have misunderstood, Allison; sounds like you thought I was >talking about replacing an FDC with one other than what the BIOS is configured >for; obviously that will require mods to the BIOS. Ok, then same fdc but sufficiently differnt drive requires new (modified) bios. Changes that affect a bios: Motor on/motor runs continiously. Step rate, head load delay, motor on delay Different on disk format (likely with 8 to 5") >What I was responding to was a previous post that suggested replacing an 8" >drive with a 5 1/4" HD drive might require mods to the BIOS, and I just wanted >to mention that this is not the case with a Cromemco 16/64FDC, to which a >TM848 and a JU475 appear identical as long as the jumpers on the 5 1/4 drive >are set correctly and it supplies /READY, and that this may also apply to some >other controllers. Also, if the controller has both 8" and 5 1/4 connectors and >they are effectively in parallel as they are on the Cromemco, you may not >even need a 50<>34 pin adapter cable. if the drive supplies ready _MAYBE_. If the Drive has the same step rate. -------------Reply: Well, I should know better than to argue (again ;-) with you of all people, but... Since we're talking about 'modern' 5 1/4" HD drives, Motor on and Ready are jumper selectable on all the drives I've run across, step rates etc. are faster than the 8" equivalent (except perhaps the PerScis), and with the same speed and data rate the disk formats are identical, no? In any case I'm only specifically talking about my Cromemco system and it seems to work fine for me. It gives me 1.1 MB on a 5 1/4HD diskette instead of 360KB and lets me deal with both 5 1/4 and 8" images conveniently in a single 5 1/4" FH bay box, without the complication of the 24V supply, 50 pin cable, unreliable old 8" drives etc. To initially read & convert my 8" disks I just temporarily plugged an external drive w/PS into the unused 50 pin connector. I haven't tried it yet, but it should also make recreating an 8" image on a PC easier, and it puts some 5 1/4HD drives & disks to a good use, which otherwise would end up on the shelf or in the trash since I don't use them on PCs. After installing the drive I happened to run across some old posts in the archives dealing with this very topic (on a Cromemco); apparently it was easy and worked fine for some and not for others. I just wanted to add my name to the former group in case it had relevance to someone else with a Cromemco FDC or _perhaps_ even with a different make of controller if it's similar, and especially mention to one of the original posters that it might not be necessary to kludge up a 50<>34 pin adapter cable (which he was reluctant to make) if the two interfaces on his FDC are handled the same way as on the Cromemco FDC. mike

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Who keeps buying DECTalks?

by silent700＠gmail.com

So I like early speech synthesis. I like DEC stuff. I've got a couple forms of the DECTalk boxes (the portable, the ISA card.) I'd like the DTC-01 unit, the one that sort of looks like a VX2000 terminal. They come up on ebay every other week or so and end up selling for well over $100. Who's buying these things? Are they popular with collectors? Or are they still being used in the disability care industry?

18 years, 9 months

14
19
0 0

Tarbell is making me insane

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Gordon JC Pearce <gordonjcp at gjcp.net> > Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2007 08:26:55 +0000 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > >On Tue, 2007-11-13 at 20:28 -0500, Allison wrote: > >> I use a stack (about 200) of written once disks, they have sales >> promo and utility on them and never distributed. Good media >> and easily erased. > >I bought a box of 500 DSDD floppies from a guy on eBay. They appear to >be new. They seem to be pretty good quality too - the cases are a bit >naff and plasticky but they actually work. > >I still don't understand how brand new 1.44M floppies fail after two or >three uses, but the 20-year-old SSDD disks for my Ensoniq Mirage are >still perfectly readable. > >Gordon I had that a work once it was dust in the drives scaring the disks after one or two uses. Reaaon, PC suck air out of the box, where does it come in? Any ways it can and through the floppy was one path. Allison

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

fS/H: Power Mac 9500 mobo/FD

by Arno_1983＠gmx.de

Hello listmembers, some days ago I stumbled across the remains of a parted-out Power Macintosh 9500 that I have no use for. There are: -3,5" floppy drive (Mitsubishi MF355F-2592MA) -grey plastic mounting sled and 20-conductor ribbon cable for the above -mainboard (P/N: 820-0563-B), bare (no DIMMs, no CPU, heck not even PRAM battery (but with power LED)). Chances are I might go back and snatch case parts incase anybody wants me to; what I remember for sure is that there were no fans left and the back panel was missing too. I couldn't test anything so it's assumed dead and offered for pickup or S&H (inside Europe only). I'm in Germany btw, and I could bring it to the VCFe in Munich next April. Yours sincerely, -- Arno Kletzander Stud. Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

can anybody use these tapes?

by rtellason＠verizon.net

In among a whole bunch of audio tapes are these three "Teac CT-500H High Density Magnetic Tape Cassette"s... Instead of the usual tab that you can break out to prevent recording there's a small red bit in one of the holes, which the bit of paper in there refers to as a "write enable plug". Two of the three are still sealed in their original plastic. I don't think even the third one is used at all. Feel free to contact me offlist if you have any use for these... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards)

by derschjo＠msu.edu

The other day I picked up a Macintosh 512k with a broken monitor for $5 thinking that it'd be a fun project to hack on (yes, another thing to add to my pile of things to hack on, just what I need :)). The power/sweep board had a couple of obviously dead capacitors and a few cracked solder joints, which I fixed up and lo and behold, the screen came back to life and I did a little dance. There was still a bit of jitter in the picture from time to time, and jiggling one of the connectors revealed another dry joint so I powered it down and prepared to fix the other joint. First point of business, I discharged the CRT. To the main chassis. This, as I have now discovered, is not what you are supposed to do to discharge the CRT unless you want to destroy the logic board. I now have a working monitor but a fried logic board; on powerup, the normally short boot tone is long and drawn out, as if the machine were running at a tiny fraction of its normal speed. Which I suppose is actually what's going on. So I killed _something_ on the main PCB, but I'm not sure what. Anyone out there experienced this failure mode? Any obvious things to check? Well, live and learn. At least it wasn't a 128K mac :). Thanks, Josh

18 years, 9 months

3
3
0 0

TMS 9980

by wmaddox＠pacbell.net

I just won a TI 9980/180M evaluation board on eBay. I was contacted by a losing bidder who apparently is in need of a 9980 processor chip. Does anyone have one for sale, or know an economical source for a single unit? --Bill

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Tarbell is making me insane

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

On Nov 13, 2007, at 11:50 PM, Chuck wrote: > Very close--I've got 3M's published specs on all of these, if anyone > cares. And 3.5 DSHD media is fairly close to DS2D; the coercivity is > somewhat higher, requiring increased write currents, but not as > drastic as the difference between 5.25" DSDD and DSHD. > It is different enough that after a couple of years DSHD media written on DSDD drives can very easily start to fade- had it happen on some DSHD floppies I wrote on a 800k Mac SE several years ago (diskettes unreadable after about 3 years).

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

Floppy storage boxes

by mdyori＠verizon.net

can you tell me more about these floppy storage boxes thanks! Martin

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Tarbell is making me insane

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Grant Stockly <grant at stockly.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:34:53 -0900 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> > >More to add... > >I know that writing to 3.5" HD disks with the hole covered to make >them look like DD is frowned upon, but maybe it could help determine >why I get errors with the real DD disks. > >While trying to back up my DD disks onto HD hole covered disks I got >an error. Its not the disk because I've tried two and they both fail >at the same spot. Bad write or media, or dirty head scaring disk. >Also, are DD disks the same as Single Sided 3.5" 360/400k >disks? Except for the double sided part? I use a stack (about 200) of written once disks, they have sales promo and utility on them and never distributed. Good media and easily erased. >What are good sources for DD disks TODAY, not NOS disks, but new >disks? Is athana the only place out there making DD disks? > >When copying from drive A to drive B it has an error at the end of >the disk. Is this where a data rate issue would be the worst? Inner tracks are always worst. >A>stat *.* | B>stat *.* > | >RECS BYTS EX D:FILENAME.TYP | RECS BYTS EX D:FILENAME.TYP > 0 0K 1 A:.INT | 64 8K 1 B:ASM.COM > 64 8K 1 A:ASM.COM | 96 12K 1 B:BASIC.COM > 96 12K 1 A:BASIC.COM | 8 1K 1 B:COPY.COM > 8 1K 1 A:COPY.COM | 70 9K 1 B:CPM.COM > 70 9K 1 A:CPM.COM | 38 5K 1 B:DDT.COM > 38 5K 1 A:DDT.COM | 12 2K 1 B:DISKTEST.COM > 12 2K 1 A:DISKTEST.COM | 24 3K 1 B:DUMPDSK.COM > 24 3K 1 A:DUMPDSK.COM | 48 6K 1 B:ED.COM > 48 6K 1 A:ED.COM | 4 1K 1 B:FORMAT.COM > 4 1K 1 A:FORMAT.COM | 56 7K 1 B:PIP.COM > 56 7K 1 A:PIP.COM | 0 0K 1 B:RUN.$$$ > 92 12K 1 A:RUN.COM | 24 3K 1 B:STAT.COM > 24 3K 1 A:STAT.COM | 8 1K 1 B:SYSGEN.COM > 8 1K 1 A:SYSGEN.COM | BYTES REMAINING ON B: 11K >BYTES REMAINING ON A: 0K | > | B> >A> | > >And the error: > >A>PIP B:=*.* > >COPYING - >CPM.COM >SYSGEN.COM >DDT.COM >COPY.COM >PIP.COM >ASM.COM >STAT.COM >ED.COM >FORMAT.COM >DISKTEST.COM >DUMPDSK.COM >BASIC.COM >RUN.COM >DISK WRITE ERROR: =*.* > >A: R/O, SPACE: 0K >B: R/W, SPACE: 11K > >A> > >(can't be too save with my only good boot disk, A:. :) Disk write error... likely just not making it. FYI: 3.5" disks were never meant to run at 125khz. The 720k mode is 250khz and the 1.44mh is 500khz. The read amps just may not work well down that low. Allison > >Grant

18 years, 9 months

5
5
0 0

cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 36 - DECtalk

by lee＠geekdot.com

> I picked up one of the ISA DECtalkPC's cheap a couple of weeks ago > but I'd like to get one of the externals. They're supported by just > about every accessibililty program. Perhaps it would be possible to make an external to ISA interface using a modern microcontroller. I've found that using ISA cards in small projects is fairly easy and often only needs the data and read/write select lines driven. The address can be fixed to that of the card. Lee.

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Tarbell is making me insane

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Grant Stockly <grant at stockly.com> > Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:16:59 -0900 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> > > >> > One little nasty. The 1771 has a basic ability to do data seperation. >> > I havent' looked at a tarbel board in a very long time but I do hope >> > that they didn't do the TRS80 save a buck trick and try to use that >> > internal seperator, it does NOT work. It has zero jitter tolerence. >> >>Strange. I used an unmodified TRS-80 Model 1 EI for years and never had >>any problems with the disk side of things. And that used the internal >>data separateor of the 1771 IIRC. > >If that is the case, why would the Tarbell have so many extra >chips? Also, at the time the tarbell was manufactured, would they >have even known that there was an issue with the 1771's data separation? Because the internal seperator sucked. If the user never had problems it was just dumb luck. Percom (and others) sold thousands of add on data seperator board to all the E1 users that couldn't make it work. >Just wondering why...I'm not trying to second guess anyone. Just >that if the extra ICs weren't required I can't imagine Tarbell using them??? Because they were needed. Even WD advised that it was not adaquate for many cases. Tarbell wasn't stupid, they built protos and tested them and the board they sold worked. Allison >Grant

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Tarbell is making me insane

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Grant Stockly <grant at stockly.com> > Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 15:25:53 -0900 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> > >Wow, a lot to go over here... Rich, if you have any problems with >your drive I might be able to help you after this exercise! : ) > >>Data is comming from the disk, however it's not readable. Possible >>reasons: >> >> NOISE, ground the drive, insure it has good power that the >> system case and it's grounds are common. Also common >> error is long drive cables (stay short for now) and cables >> (and drives) that get near CRTs. > >I'm hooking the 3.5" drive power cable directly to the output of the >7805 on the tarbell, which is getting its power from an 8v switching >power supply. The power is nice and steady at 4.95v. The only thing >I haven't done is made sure the case is grounded. Some drives had >jumpers for that, but mine doesn't. So it could be either way. BZZT!!!! NEVER! The 7805 DOES NOT have the output to support the logic and the Drive power. It might with a modern 3.5" but not any of the 5" older drives. >> Internal: 1771 requires a data seperator to recover clock and >> nice(cleaned up some) read data. The common circuits >> are oneshots and PLLs. Tarbel used oneshots. Generally >> they work well enough if set right. > >The tarbell card I have doesn't have any one shots for data >separation. The read data line goes into a L74 (Dual D Edge >Triggered Flip Flop), then goes into a LS175 (Quad D Type Flip Flop >with Direct Clear). There are two LS161 (Synchronous 4 Bit Binary >Counter) that are hooked up to parts of the LS175. There are is a >XOR gate and two NAND gates. I'm not sure what is going on at the >moment, does it seem like that pile of parts could be implementing a >PLL? I would think a PLL would be more complex than that. I'll at >least make sure all of the edges match up (Read data vs separated >clock and data) It's a oneshot done with counters rather than monostables. Better, stable and predictable. >I hope I find something obvious. I should at least see a difference >between the two tarbell cards (reliably bad vs somewhat bad). I have >a 4FDC Cromemco? It uses a 1771. I might be able to use the tarbell >driver to boot off of that. Is anything known about that card as far >as being better or worse? Make sure the logic osc is really running at the crystal frequency. >> LOGIC: problem with read/wait hardware not working or possible >> data path corruption. > >The two 3.5" drives and the 5.25" drive I have don't do anything with >the ready/disk change line at all. BUT, I know the Sony 3.5" drive >doesn't generate index pulses until the drive speeds up (I think that >is what its doing). That should affect nothing. SA400s (and others) don't generate index if teh media is not spinning (motor off, door open). >With a TEAC 235HF drive it takes 694.053ms for the drive to generate >sector pulses AFTER the drive was given a "Motor Enable" >signal. Even though the head was NOT at track 00, the drive didn't >signal that status until 491.221ms after given a "Motor Enable". So >the drive seemed to spin the motor up, tell the controller it was not >at 0, and then start issuing index pulses. Most systems that used 5.25" drives had a 1second motor delay for the motor to spin up. You dont read as soon as you see index nor does the FDC chip. >That is probably how the 3.5" disk is getting away without a ready >line. The older drives probably generated index pulses regardless of >if the drive is ready or not. These newer drives with more brains >must not make index pulses unless they are ready. Ready is one line I never used nor is it important. Use a jumper to force it true and forget it. >>your shotgunning. I've seen this for 30+ years. Doesn't work, swap >>out the big hairy chip as they must be flaky or why else put it in a >>socket? Rare if ever is that the case. > >On my second kenbak build I had a problem. First I tested all of the >ICs (digital only) but didn't find any problems so I started swapping >them all. About 3 hours after testing it started working, but then >stopped. I found a cold solder joint. Pushing around and bending >the boad "fixed" it. : ) So I fixed the joint and reinstalled all >of the old chips. : ) Probing for a missing signal might have found it faster. Pulling chips risks fatigueing sockets and also ESD to the chips (even TTL). The worst is the motion makes the problem go away only to return days later. >The main reason I swapped the 1771 was because I think I read >somewhere that its a very static sensitive part and of all of them >the most likely to go out... No more so than 8080, z80 or 765. Once in circuit the surrounding stuff further protects it. However ESD can and does kill chips that come to edge connectors. >>FYI: certain brands of sockets of the side wipe style tend to fatigue >>with insertion/removeal and some do it over time leading to failures >>where the chips are 100% good but nothing works and may be flakey >>if wiggled or moved. > >I will replace the sockets with machine pin sockets. Do so as needed. I've had to strip entire NS* MDS boards for that reason. >>DD or HD with tarbel?????? > >The tarbell is treating the 3.5" disk drive as that TM100 tandon SSSD >drive. The data rate recorded to the drive is 8.07us per bit. I'm >getting 123916 bits a second, which doesn't seem to match anything I >remember... That would be single density 5.25" rate and you at 99.1328% of correct which would be 125,000. Less than 1% slow is tolerable. >>HD media is incompatable in every way with older drives and lower >>data rates. > >My drive is a new from sony. I've made formatted and written to HD >disks with the HD hole covered. This same drive reading the same >disks does not always read. I don't know if its the tarbell's fault or not. Disks as in media or drives? Disks as in media is an issue. Better bet is older 720k stuff. FYI HD in this context is meaningless as your running at 1/2 the lowest data rate for those drives. >>Does the read loop test a status bit or hang/wait on read? > >The silly tarbell issues a "IN" to a "wait" port and the tarbell >keeps it in a wait state until the 1771 is good and ready. Kind of >makes debugging hard if the tarbell doesn't decide to stop waiting. ; ) I call that read/hang. It's the only way to go with slow CPUs. If thats the case then your disks test [program should hang if there is no data. > >>can you supply the sector read code? ( should be fairly short) > >The datasheet for the 1771 says "Upon receipt of the Read command, >the head is loaded, the BUSY status bit set, and when an ID field is >encountered that has the correct track number, correct sector number, >and correct CRC, the data field is presnted to the computer." I know that paragraph. It also means the FDC had to find and read those correctly. >Is that the sector read code you are talking about? One of those >first bytes? The data sheet says that the 1771 is capable of reading >the entire track as one big sector. Maybe I should try to make a >routine to do that. I don't know of any other way to get that code >since it isn't part of a normal read. Ah, no the software that manages the FDC. the program segment that does READ IO. > >> >The drive, tarbell, and boot disks were mailed to me from a fellow >> >enthusiast. He made all of the modifications, made the disks, >> >etc. He has tested the setup in an IMSAI (kind of) with my (kit) >> >CPU, a SSM 8080, and a ZPU at 2MHz. >> >>Kind of and exactly are differnt things. > >At least we both have a ZPU and both have one with the 2MHz >switch. So that eliminates the CPU card one shots from the >reliability question. Right? Same bus? Same ram, same Front pannel? >> > 4. With the Altair CPU and the Imsai front panel the Tarbell >> >will boot after you push reset and then push the run switch. >> >>Says the MITS FP is causing some pain. > >FP? FRONT PANNEL. >>The 8t97s worked fine for me. It has 8224? your mod or 8800B? > >That was part of a quote from him. Its not my board. I do have pictures at: >http://www.stockly.com/forums/showthread.php?t=325 > >Its a regular Rev 0 card with some modifications. The biggest >modification is the lack of one shots. It uses an 8224. I imagine >he got this info from a vintage place somewhere because his work >looks very well planned out. Or maybe he just planned it out good! I just ripped up the osc and oneshots plus the drivers and used on of the pad areas to mount the 8224 and wired it in. One problem the 8224 can have is the crystal osc can sometime run at a harmonic of the marked freq or for the 18.384 mhz rock sometimes at a subharmonic. I found it stable but watch for it. >>The only media that should go in that drive is the brown SD/DD floppies. >>If the media was written on a 96tpi drive the noise and jitter _will_ >>be higher due to track width differences. IF the FDC oneshots are >>not quite on that makes a huge differnence. > >I've read that HD (1.44MB 3.5") disks with tape over the HD hole >aren't exactly a DD disk. Something about the track width being >narrower because of the smaller head in an HD drive? BUT, the DD >(720k 3.5") disks were formatted to 40 tracks 18 sectors, 128 bytes a >sector using an HD drive. So the DD disks wouldn't have a wide track >width to begin with. Are there really physical media differences >between DD and HD that would keep a HD disk from being used as a DD >disk when in a HD drive? The HD drive should be able to read the >narrow track written on what it thinks is a DD disk, right? Is the >magnetic material of an HD disk significantly different? the 3.5" all have the same track width. The 5.25" stuff had that wholde thing going on. What the 3.5" had was the media had a different corcivity and there were at least two differnt media and the 1.44 had a harder to write 700 orsted media vs the 720K at 600. > >Most of the information I've read about mixing media is in reference >to DD disks being written in an HD drive and then becoming unreliable >in a DD drive. I've also heard about people who add holes to disks >to make a DD disk an HD disk, which probably works for them better >than my tarbell works for me... : ) Again thats the 5.25" drives. The 3.5" world is generally less muddled for modern drives. (those that likely appeard in PCs). Allison >Thanks! > >Grant

18 years, 9 months

3
2
0 0

cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 36

by pechter＠gmail.com

> Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 16:18:45 -0600 > From: "Jason T" <silent700 at gmail.com> > Subject: Who keeps buying DECTalks? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Message-ID: > <51ea77730711111418j6a375852xea3fcf22f6864744 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > So I like early speech synthesis. I like DEC stuff. I've got a > couple forms of the DECTalk boxes (the portable, the ISA card.) I'd > like the DTC-01 unit, the one that sort of looks like a VX2000 > terminal. They come up on ebay every other week or so and end up > selling for well over $100. > > Who's buying these things? Are they popular with collectors? Or are > they still being used in the disability care industry? > Folks like me would love to get some cheap. My wife's blind and from what I've seen the DECtalk is the best sounding of the early Speach synthesis boxes. It's (IIRC) got a pair of 68k chips and some nice software including stuff like an "email mode" which knows how to skip the extraneous header stuff when talking mail messages. I picked up one of the ISA DECtalkPC's cheap a couple of weeks ago but I'd like to get one of the externals. They're supported by just about every accessibililty program. bill -- d|i|g|i|t|a|l had it THEN. Don't you wish you could still buy it now! pechter-at-gmail.com

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Slightly OT: Getting parts form Hong Kong

by cclist＠sydex.com

List, I'm starting work on a small hardware project and note that the best deals on items such as PIC microcontrollers are from Chinese dealers. They seem to be reputable and offer items at half the US supplier price. Has anyone had problems with them? My last order from such an HK supplier was a bucketload of white LEDs. Cheap--and they were exactly what the seller represented them as--shipment took less than a week. I couldn't tough the price I paid through normal US dealders (DigiKey, Mouser, etc.). Cheers, Chuck

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards)

by trag＠io.com

> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:45:09 -0800 > From: Josh Dersch <derschjo at msu.edu> > Subject: How not to fix a classic mac (or: fried logic boards) > The other day I picked up a Macintosh 512k with a broken monitor for $5 > thinking that it'd be a fun project to hack on (yes, another thing to > add to my pile of things to hack on, just what I need :)). > > First point of business, I discharged the CRT. > To the main chassis. This, as I have now discovered, is not what you > are supposed to do to discharge the CRT unless you want to destroy the > logic board. > > Anyone out there experienced this failure mode? Any > obvious things to check? That particular failure is documented in Larry Pina's "Macintosh Repair and Upgrade Secrets" and probably in "The Dead Mac Scrolls" as well. I'd look it up for you, but I don't have my books with me here. It's definitely an IC, but I don't remember which one, nor how rare/common it is. If someone else doesn't jump in with the answer, email me (to remind me when I'm at home) and I'll look it up. Jeff Walther

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Do you have oldest-running HP-UX system in the U.S?

by darin.lory＠gmail.com

I thought I would pass this on....I'm sure someone on this list could win this!!! -Darin Do you have the oldest running HP-UX server? If you do, you'll receive a new HP Integrity server as our celebration gift. Register to claim your complimentary limited edition 20thanniversary sweater. If you have the oldest-running HP-UX system in the U.S., you'll receive a new HP Integrity rx2660 server.(2) Your HP-UX server could be more valuable than you think. If it's the oldest HP-UX server still in production, you'll receive a HP Integrity server.(2) Register to enter and receive your complimentary special edition 20th anniversary sweater.(1) https://h30046.www3.hp.com/campaigns/2007/promo/1-43HP8/index.php?key=HPUX&… Register today to see if it's yours and receive: * A limited edition 20th anniversary sweater(1) * A chance to receive(2) an HP Integrity rx2660 server with HP-UX 11i v3 license and HP Care Pack Service * Outstanding trade-in discounts Celebrating 20 Years of HP-UX customer loyalty. Find out if you have the oldest running system https://h30046.www3.hp.com/campaigns/2007/promo/1-43HP8/index.php?key=HPUX&… Technology for better business outcomes. _____________________________________________________________________ 1. Complimentary HP-UX anniversary offer subject to HP terms and conditions. Offer available to all U.S. customers with a valid HP-UX server serial number while supplies last. You must meet HP qualifications. HP may discontinue this offer at anytime. 2. Rules: No purchase necessary. Open only to U.S. entries. Entries must be received by January 15, 2008. HP will determine and select the oldest running system from all valid entries received, based on the oldest running instance of a HP-UX server currently in production. HP reserves the right to disqualify entries for any reason. The oldest running system will be announced in February 2008. (C) 2007 Hewlett-Packard Company. All rights reserved. All product and company names referenced herein are trademarks of their respective owners. THIS DOCUMENT IS PROVIDED FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY. INFORMATION PROVIDED IN THIS DOCUMENT IS PROVIDED AS IS WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED. This document may be copied provided all text is included and copies contain HP's copyright notice and any other notices provided herein.

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

"Barn" finds - Victor 9000, Rex Microcomputer and Intersil Development System

by jplist2007＠kiwigeek.com

Hey all; My wife's grandfather started a company that made the first digital meter for propane (and other gaseous) distribution and they're clearing out their old facility (which the family calls the Car Barn, for his collection of vintage Packards now stored there). Couple of goodies, but I'm afraid I'm having trouble finding much on some of them, thought perhaps those out there might be able to help. The first is a Victor 9000 which I found some descriptions of and, thanks to Al, a manual on BitSavers. I'll dig into that one later. The next is a 'Rex Microcomputer System', model REX-1032, "Manufactured by Realistic Controls Corporation of Davenport, Iowa". I'm guessing this is a kit computer that's been put together by this local company, but "Rex Micrcomputer" gets me nothing via google and breaking it down gives me screeds of irrelevancies. The machine has a Z80 microprocessor, although it might have another (ala Rainbow) and I just haven't dug far enough. The last is quite a beasty, weighing plenty thanks to its significantly hefty linear power supply. Intersil Development System, ISB 80DS 3020-120. Got six apparently serial ports on the back with what I think is a console cable hanging out one side. What I like best is the socket mounted in the front plate for reading/writing 24 pin DIP chips. Two 8" drives with diskettes in them, God only knows if they're still good after sitting out for this long. I'll give all of the above a good part of the day to warm back up (20F last night in Iowa and they sat out in my car, the boards are now sufficiently slick with condensation in my office) and see what I get. I have a monitor for the Victor and the Rex (a rather adorable 8" Sanyo TV), we'll see what happens on the Intersil. I'd love to hear from anyone who is famaliar with these, on or off-list, your choice. JP Hindin Iowa

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

S100 Floppy Controller Question

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question > From: M H Stein <dm561 at torfree.net> > Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 01:13:48 -0500 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >---------------Original Message: > >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:51:09 -0500 >From: Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> >Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question >To: cctech at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: <0JRD004G7656LL73 at vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > >> >>Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question >> From: M H Stein <dm561 at torfree.net> >> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:33:20 -0500 >> To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > ><snip> >>I think Tim's point was that if your controller's smart enough to deal with a >>relatively modern 8" drive like a TM848 it could probably deal equally >>well with a 5.25" HD drive and you could transparently restore an 8" image >>(if you have one) to the 5.25" disk. The controller (and CP/M) would not >>even know that it's a 5.25 instead of an 8"; my Cromemcos certainly don't, >>although a different FDC might well require some mods to the BIOS. > >Different FDC WILL require a different bios. Same for SERIAL IO. > >Allison > >-----------Reply: > >I think you might have misunderstood, Allison; sounds like you thought I was >talking about replacing an FDC with one other than what the BIOS is configured >for; obviously that will require mods to the BIOS. Ok, then same fdc but sufficiently differnt drive requires new (modified) bios. Changes that affect a bios: Motor on/motor runs continiously. Step rate, head load delay, motor on delay Different on disk format (likely with 8 to 5") >What I was responding to was a previous post that suggested replacing an 8" >drive with a 5 1/4" HD drive might require mods to the BIOS, and I just wanted >to mention that this is not the case with a Cromemco 16/64FDC, to which a >TM848 and a JU475 appear identical as long as the jumpers on the 5 1/4 drive >are set correctly and it supplies /READY, and that this may also apply to some >other controllers. Also, if the controller has both 8" and 5 1/4 connectors and >they are effectively in parallel as they are on the Cromemco, you may not >even need a 50<>34 pin adapter cable. if the drive supplies ready _MAYBE_. If the Drive has the same step rate. >Nevertheless, controllers meant for some of the older, non-'standard' 8" drives >probably will require changes to the BIOS, and likely also hardware mods. BTDT, drive changes ultimately a BIOS and in few cases the mods are small and most not interchangeable. Allison > >mike

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Who keeps buying DECTalks?

by dm561＠torfree.net

-------------Original Message(s): Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:25:13 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> Subject: On 11 Nov 2007 at 20:49, Jim Leonard wrote: > The digitized examples (Kennedy, etc.) weren't that much better > either... I wonder, with modern computers making the FFT analysis, could > the computalker produce intelligible output? I can only assume that the > original analysis was limited by the speed of its day. I don't know--the CT was a strange board. I do recall at one point having a Votrax Type'n'Talk RS-232 text-to-speech box installed on a terminal. To this day, I still say "ok" (rhymes with "sock")... ;) Cheers, Chuck -----------------Reply; Same here; one of the Cromemcos had a Votrax on a dedicated port that announced the user's name and port no. when he/she logged in, and for many years I've had a PC set up with an RS-232 speech card that announces the caller's name and number when my phone rings, as well as logging the call. mike

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

S100 Floppy Controller Question

by dm561＠torfree.net

---------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:51:09 -0500 From: Allison <ajp166 at bellatlantic.net> Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question To: cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <0JRD004G7656LL73 at vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > >Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question > From: M H Stein <dm561 at torfree.net> > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:33:20 -0500 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> <snip> >I think Tim's point was that if your controller's smart enough to deal with a >relatively modern 8" drive like a TM848 it could probably deal equally >well with a 5.25" HD drive and you could transparently restore an 8" image >(if you have one) to the 5.25" disk. The controller (and CP/M) would not >even know that it's a 5.25 instead of an 8"; my Cromemcos certainly don't, >although a different FDC might well require some mods to the BIOS. Different FDC WILL require a different bios. Same for SERIAL IO. Allison -----------Reply: I think you might have misunderstood, Allison; sounds like you thought I was talking about replacing an FDC with one other than what the BIOS is configured for; obviously that will require mods to the BIOS. What I was responding to was a previous post that suggested replacing an 8" drive with a 5 1/4" HD drive might require mods to the BIOS, and I just wanted to mention that this is not the case with a Cromemco 16/64FDC, to which a TM848 and a JU475 appear identical as long as the jumpers on the 5 1/4 drive are set correctly and it supplies /READY, and that this may also apply to some other controllers. Also, if the controller has both 8" and 5 1/4 connectors and they are effectively in parallel as they are on the Cromemco, you may not even need a 50<>34 pin adapter cable. Nevertheless, controllers meant for some of the older, non-'standard' 8" drives probably will require changes to the BIOS, and likely also hardware mods. mike

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation

by ggs＠shiresoft.com

Hi, I don't know if anyone else noticed but MIT has released the source (and documentation) to MULTICS. The link is: http://web.mit.edu/multics-history/ I haven't gone through it (yet) but thought I should bring this great news to everyone's attention. -- TTFN - Guy

18 years, 9 months

11
20
0 0

Docs for Chipcom ONline System Concentrator and Online NCS

by steve＠radiorobots.com

Hi, Trying to re-create, at least on paper, a system I used in the early '90s. Looking for docs for Chipcom ONline concentrator and NCS. Thanks, Steve

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

More pollution- Onyx (1) in California, also free

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16005 Don't know if he'll ship, but move fast if you're interested.

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

beckmen industrial circuitmate 9020 osilloscope operaters manual

by thenicnics＠tiscali.co.uk

Hi Dan Please would you contact me if you still have a Beckman industrial circuitmate 9020 oscilloscope operators manual MANY THANKS Gary Nicholson

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

DEC sun3 gear available in Ottawa

by dave06a＠dunfield.com

Hi Guys, A friend of mine is cleaning his basement, and offers up some equipment, located near Ottawa, Ontario Canada. Please see: http://www.ba23.org/blog/2007/11/12/index.html#free > Free gear available for pick-up in Ottawa. Will consider shipping > if you are willing to pay packaging and shipping costs. > > I need to get this stuff out of my basement. > > - Sun 3/50 and Sun 3/160 > - MicroVAX-II in a BA123 enclosure > - DEC RL02 drives > - AlphaServer 2100 > - DECstation 3100 > - SPARCstation IPC > - VT100 Tempest > > > There will be more gear available. I will update this webpage as > I sort out the gear -- http://www.ba23.org/page0290.html -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html

18 years, 9 months

3
2
0 0

MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation

by blstuart＠bellsouth.net

From: Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> > > Brian L. Stuart wrote: > > segmentation structure. Unfortunately, it's only got 32-bit > > addresses. Even in the 60s, the Multics machines had 36. > > Pardon my ignorance, but were there any places where the top four bits > were actually used? I mean, I don't believe there was a machine back > then capable of running MULTICS and also having more than 8Gb primary > storage. Wouldn't it be possible to fake it by just chopping off the > four most-significant bits and using the remaining 32? It's the virtual addresses you really care about. So the limit of physical memory is really a diffent issue. The address was used in 2 18-bit parts. The upper part was the segment number and the lower the offset into the segment. That meant segments could be no more the 256K and you could have no more than 256K of them. Because there was a one-to-one correspondence between files and segments, that would have limited files to 256K. They did some "stuff" to get around that, but I don't think it's what you'd do if you were starting from scratch, or maybe even doing a fresh port. If you divided the 32-bit address into a 14-bit segment number and 18-bit offset, then you could keep the same segment size and the only limit would be that a process could use no more than 16K segments. All in all, it'd be a whole lot more fun to use a 64-bit machine and divide it into 32 and 32. BLS

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation

by blstuart＠bellsouth.net

> > >> But what machines could run the that today? > > > > > > Anything you port it to. The segmentation architecture would be hard to fake. And the idea of segments is so deeply ingrained, I doubt you'd want to try. However, the x86 does seem to have the necessary segmentation structure. Unfortunately, it's only got 32-bit addresses. Even in the 60s, the Multics machines had 36. > > That's an interesting question. I can't think of that many machines > > with a hardware ring architecture, and it's not something that can be > > easily faked with more traditional architectures. It would be a fairly > > invasive "port". > > It pains me to say it, but you could just throw CPU horsepower and > memory at the problem. Yes and no. In principle, the only thing you'd have to ensure is that you gave control to the supervisor on a ring crossing. So you could make all pages not in the current ring inaccessible. On a page fault, apply the ring brackets in software and change the page tables as a result. At the very least, you'd take a performance hit. Having said that, somewhere in the back of my head, I want to say that the x86 has at least part of the mechanism already. So a port to it would be less painful than to a lot of others, except of course, for the smaller address space. Of course, I could be totally off. I'm certainly no Multics expert, and my memory of the details of the x86 segmentation are rusty at best. BLS

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation

by blstuart＠bellsouth.net

From: Chris Kennedy <chris at mainecoon.com> > > Brian L. Stuart wrote: > > >>From multicians.org: > > Although there were 64 rings (an illusion created by software) on > > GE 645 Multics, there are 8 rings, supported in hardware, on the > > Honeywell 6180 in its various models. > > As opposed to what? Four on the X86? > > The original question remains, how many rings does Multics need? Just > because eight were provided by hardware doesn't mean they were all used. For the most part, they used 0-4. I don't think you'd actually need 5-7. BLS

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

MIT provides MULTICS source and documentation

by blstuart＠bellsouth.net

From: Chris Kennedy <chris at mainecoon.com> > > Sean Conner wrote: > > > I can think of several thousand that have been made over the past decade, > > all made with the Intel x86 architecture. It even has the segments that > > Multics used. Seems like a perfect match to me. > > Hence my question regarding the number of rings used by Multics. Just > because there's multiple contexts doesn't mean that there's _enough_ of > them. >From multicians.org: Although there were 64 rings (an illusion created by software) on GE 645 Multics, there are 8 rings, supported in hardware, on the Honeywell 6180 in its various models. BLS

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

Found a NCR system 3400 BoatAnchor

by laura＠gbsncr.com

I am looking for information on how to find some part numbers to my NCR 3400 machine. I need one master slave (3) cables that go to the NCR3400 and the controller box (possible pn: 5300008319) for the tape drive (initialization tape 5 ?? tape). Please let me know if you can help. Laura Ellingson Sales & Marketing Manager Guarantee Business Systems, Inc. 800-650-1457, X429 651-286-8429-Direct 651-688-6160-Fax <mailto:laura at gbsncr.com> laura at gbsncr.com <http://www.gbsncr.com/> www.gbsncr.com GBS is a Woman Owned Small Business & Service Disabled Veteran Owned. We are a POS, Storage, networking hardware solution provider - in the IT industry since 1986.

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Architecture vs Implementation

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> If a processor has 16 bit registers, 16 bit math and address > calculation, and a 16 bit address bus, but it's ALU is only 8 bit and > its internal data bus is 8 bits, it's an 8 bit processor. Right? wrong -- The 360/30 /40 and /50 are all considered members of the same 32 bit architecture, and have 8, 16 and 32 bit data paths, respectively. An 80386/SX is not considered a 16 bit processor because it has a 16 bit data bus. People are confusing architecture with implementation. Is a PDP-8/S a one bit processor because it implements arithmetic serially?

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card.

by trag＠io.com

> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:30:42 -0700 > From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com> > Subject: Re: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. > In article <38603.209.163.133.242.1194883321.squirrel at webmail.io.com>, > "Jeff Walther" <trag at io.com> writes: > >> The IIe card has an actual IIe-in-a-chip on board. It plugs into an LC >> slot. The "LC-slot" originated on the Mac LC, but was instantiated on >> many Mac models after that. > > Is the "LC-slot" referring to the form factor or the bus interface? Primarily the bus interface. There may have been other Apple connectors which used the same physical connector but were wired differently. I am not aware of any, but Apple did this with other connectors. For example, the PDS connector in the IIci, IIsi and SE/30 are the same physically, but the IIci's is wired quite a bit differently, and even the IIsi and SE/30 have minor differences, though the latter doesn't stop cards from being cross-compatible. > Is this a NuBus slot? No. Apple was very fond of the Euro Mini-DIN connector in various pin numbers, but it is not the same as a NuBus slot. >> A IIe expansion card enthusiast has a very informative website up on the >> topic. > Is this the one you're thinking about? > > <http://www.vintagemacworld.com/> > Apple IIe Card for the Macintosh LC Frequently Asked Questions That's it. Anywhere that FAQ and I differ, I'm probably wrong. Same for me and Cameron's post which I saw after I wrote mine. Jeff Walther

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

At risk of polluting the list with micros- IRIS Indigo adv. for free.

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

See http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16095 Looks like a R3000 model with XS-24Z, XZ, or Elan graphics Not mine, in Oregon.

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

CRC question

by dkelvey＠hotmail.com

> From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 11 Nov 2007 at 10:37, dwight elvey wrote: > >> To my knowledge, I don't know if any of the assemblers had >> a CRC calculator built in. The final check number was most >> likely calculated after the assembly and just added to the code. >> If in the listing, this may have been a second pass through >> the assembler. > > MAC certainly didn't have one. I assume that the last 2 bytes of the > ROM were the zero-CRC-makers. The "quick and dirty way" to get a > zero sum is to compuate the CRC for the first n-2 bytes of the size n > ROM, then iterate through the 65536 possible 16-bit combinations of > the "corrector" stopping when a zero CRC is hit. It shouldn't take > long, particularly if you're using an emulator on a modern PC. > > You could also work out the reverse polynomial, but that sounds like > too much work for what probably will amount to a one-off deal. > > Cheers, > Chuck Hi Chuck As I recall, you just play the CRC forward with 0's in the two bytes. The value in the CRC is then just put into the place of the two bytes. It the will cancel to zero. I'd have to check that but that is what I recall. I recall it wasn't all that complicated. Remember, CRC circuits in controller chip do this for floppy disk without complicated circuits. It has been some time since I played with CRC's. I once had to write test to check CRC chips that used the Chinese Remainder Theorem to make data correction. I had to make sure that it corrected correctly by checking each part of the error correction. That was many years ago. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Boo!?Scare away worms, viruses and so much more! Try Windows Live OneCare! http://onecare.live.com/standard/en-us/purchase/trial.aspx?s_cid=wl_hotmail…

18 years, 9 months

3
4
0 0

cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 37

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

On Nov 11, 2007, at 11:21 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > What I meant to say is that the investor who get in turn the hobby > into a > business. Get in buy low, trade items around between other investors to > drive up the costs, sell out and find another pump and dump hobby. It > leaves > people thinking their stuff is worth money when the people with the > money > are long gone. Granted people will dig up those rarities and trade them > around so they do not get trashed, so there is a plus side to it > (things get > preserved). > There's another factor here - people like Will and Paul and Sellam (probably) don't cater to deep-pocket collectors as their primary customers. They cater to businesses who still use the machines in day-to-day operations and are happy to pay what's needed for a part so they can get it next-business-day. The other market is lawyers looking for prior art evidence. In both cases the bankroll is substantially bigger than almost any collector, so collectors get locked out through no nefarious intent of the dealers. Remember there's quite a lot of overhead in locating, buying, storing, organizing, and dealing that one part that one person will need every 5 years (or longer for the lawyers - maybe only once in 50 years, but they're willing to pay). Off of this there is a certain amount of hype-induced market pumping (lookit how much that old thing sold for! I'm gonna dump my beanie babies and invest in cawm-pew-tuhs (yes, more sophisticated certainly, but it's a fun image), but that is vapor wealth because those people don't have the support to deal to businesses and probably have no interest in doing professional lawyer supply so the investment is probably as good as shares in "Gobi Rainforest Woods Limited" > The only thing stopping me from fighting over the big boys for my > collectables is that nothing I collect would interest the big deep > pocket > collectors in the first place. Everything I like was made in the > thousands > or millions, outbid me today and I just wait for the next one, or find > it at > a garage sale for $1. I guess if I was older and used computers pre > 1980, I > might want some of the rarer systems that command money, but they just > don't > mean anything to me so I don't bother. I certainly wouldn't mind trying out a HP2100 or 3000, or an IBM mini/mainframe, but definitely same boat here - wussy micros only (unless you count the TAAC board which might be a mini). I'm a bit gunshy too, after the trouble it took to outfit my $25 VAX 4200 I'm hesitant to get into something that I don't know especially if it's pricy.

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card.

by trag＠io.com

> Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 21:41:34 -0800 > From: Scott Quinn <compoobah at valleyimplants.com> > Subject: Re: Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card. > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > The Apple // cards (I think it was a //e) fit in the LC PDS (LC, LCII, > LCIII, not sure about the '040 LCs) and are a genuine Apple product > that was pretty much 100%. While most of the (usually schools) using > them would move their Apple // software to either 3.5" or hard disk, I > think that Apple made a Macintosh-compatible 5.25" floppy that would > read Apple // disks (I know they made an IBM 5.25"-compatible floppy > drive for Macintosh back in the late 1980s), but not many were sold. The IIe card has an actual IIe-in-a-chip on board. It plugs into an LC slot. The "LC-slot" originated on the Mac LC, but was instantiated on many Mac models after that. The rule to distinguish 68040 based machines with an LC slot is that 68040 machines which can boot into 24 bit addressing mode will support the IIe card and 68040 machines which cannot boot into 24 bit addressing mode (IOW, 32 bit only) cannot support the IIe card, even though it will plug into the LC slot. IIRC, the Quadra 605/LC605/P605 supports the IIe card and the Quadra 630 family (Q630, 631, 635, 636, 640, and LC and Performas with same numbers) does not. Most machines with an LC style expansion slot have no other expansion slots, so installation of a IIe card precludes adding an ethernet card and other expansions. The Q63x family has a comm slot and an LC slot, so one could have an ethernet card in the comm slot and a IIe board in the LC slot, if they supported the IIe, which they don't. Grrrrr. The IIe card has a connector on the back plane for a custom cable. The custom cable splits into a joystick connector and a floppy drive connector. So one can connect a IIe joystick to the IIe card and one can also connect a 5.25" floppy drive to the connector on the special cable. IIRC, there is a model(s) of 5.25" drive which will work and another (others?) which will not, but I don't rememember which is which. Still, one does not need a special 5.25" drive. The connector is for one of the external 5.25" drives which was supported on the original Mac IIe. The IIe card uses the host machine's keyboard, mouse, display, hard drive and built-in 3.5" floppy drive. A IIe expansion card enthusiast has a very informative website up on the topic. And I will be useless here and fail to have the URL. But the resource exists and covers the information above to a useful level of detail. Jeff Walther

18 years, 9 months

3
2
0 0

cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 37

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

On Nov 11, 2007, at 11:21 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > I would love to be proven wrong on this, since it would potentially > make > my II disk archiving a lot easier, but I have never heard of such a > device > for the Mac. > > In the case of the IIe card, this was accomplished by connecting a > regular > Apple II 5.25" drive to the *card*, not the computer. AFAIK same for the DOS compatible drive (though a different card, not the //e). I think somebody (must not have been Apple) did make some sort of drive that did the necessary interface juggling to do 5.25" //-series on the Mac. I was a bit too young to remember specifics, though. Perhaps AE. Pretty sure I've seen reference to it somewhere.

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Old Sun diags questions (4/300 and 3/200)

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

> Dave McGuire writes: > On Nov 10, 2007, at 1:19 PM, Scott Quinn wrote: > > Couple of questions on old Sun machines (well, parts). > > > > On a Sun 4300 CPU board, I'm getting the > > "EEPROM Write-Write-Read-Read test > > error PA=0xF2000000 VA=0X00FF8000 Exp=0x0000005a Obs=0x00000000 > > (looping)" > > error. Looking on the Web and Usenet seems to show that this has > > happened a couple of times, with some reference to possibly being > > the NVRAM (although the most comprehensive posing set was in > > German :(). This seems a bit odd, though - on my other Suns it > > calls the NVRAM the NVRAM, so I'm wondering if this is something > else. > > It's just a terminological difference. Most of those machines (if > I recall correctly) used 2816 NVRAM chips, which are also correctly > referred to as EEPROMs. Oh, so the Mostek unit isn't what this is talking about. Hmm- have to go over the board again. I saw the Mostek and assumed that it was the same as the 4c/m/u NVRAM setup .

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal)

by jeffj＠panix.com

replying to ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal) Message-ID: <m1IrKbM-000J3RC at p850ug1> > I am not a 'normal' computer collector, if such a thing even exists. > For one thing I am primarily interested in the hardware design > (if I can get a machine running properly so that it boots the normal OS, > or runs the ROM software, or..., then I tend to lose interest in it). > I am interested in the electronics/engineering aspects, > the fact that the devices happen to be programmable computers is secondary to this. I think I'm in that camp too. I adored pulling apart old electronics to see the immense worksmanchip and craftsmanship required just for the assembly. Old military stuff was designed for reliability, maintenance, repairability, upgrade/replacement, etc. Even just verifying in-spec operation ment test points, built-in meters, test lamps, status indicators, etc. Things that are TOALLY MISSING from today's equipment. Will I ever build anything that magnificent by myself? Unlikely, but I can still aim high. [a quick rant: I've been having problems with my cable internet. I knew it was the modem by watching the status leds as it kept rebooting. How's anyone to diagnose things with only a power LED? Yea, it's sure great to buy 500+ gig hard drives for $100 but without a REAL activity LED, how am I to assure what drive is active? Some drives used to even blink diagnostics on their LED. New PCs are sure fast but without activity LEDs, how is one to isolate faults? That's a far cry from the mainframes with diagnostic LEDs on each card or part for fault isolation Yea, remote diagnostics and SMART give more details but after all that, someone still has to touch the hardware!] > This has several implications. The first, which I think is on-topic, > is that I am equally interested in peripherals as CPUs. > I want to run my PDP11 with RK05s and RK07s and RL02s, and... > Not an IDE drive pretending to be the above. > The design of the servo system in an RK07 > is every bit as interesting to me as the processor. I both agree and disagree. Yes, it's amazing seeing things in motion (particulalry linear motors) and motion control systems where you can SEE the feedback sensors and signals (not just a black-blob of a DSP doing all the work). BUT - when those drives were in common use, there was a support infrastructure. You could buy new disks and the cleaning kits and hire people to clean and check the disks and drives for "preventive maintenance". The drudgery of doing all that maintenance myself made me give up many such projects of running old equipment :-( -- Jeff Jonas

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

VCFX Photos

by wayne.smith＠charter.net

I have posted some VCFX photos at: http://picasaweb.google.com/Joy.Wayne/VintageComputerFestivalX Labels to follow.

18 years, 9 months

16
19
0 0

Tarbell is making me insane

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Grant Stockly <grant at stockly.com> > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 13:21:32 -0900 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org> > >Tarbell Update > >> >> > Also sounds like oneshot problems. Check cpu timing. Even small timing >> >> > errors tend to magnify bus noise issues and incompability problems. >> >>(Snip) >> >> > Also HEAT. That thing despite a very heafty noisy fan and cover mods >> >> > didn't like heat. FYI: the timing of the oneshots drifts with heating! > >I can't speak for the exact combination of the Tarbell, but the >system has been running all day long with: >-16k static card >-8k static card >-4k static card Ok you have 28k ram. Is the image sized and booting in that? If the image is sized for say 32 or 48K it will crash, likely as a bounce back to rom monitor. >-2SIO Is the boot image set up for MITS 2SIO and does it set it up? >-1k ROM >-8k Byte saver I assume thse are in high memory and not below the address the image will try to boot to. CP/M wants from 0000h to system size as configured. When working on FDCs I load the system with a single known good RAM16, Ram17 or similar 64k static card that can kill the last 4 or 8k. I use a CPU with resident monitor and local ram (compupro CPU Z) and an CPro Interfacer for IO. At that point I know I have a known IO, known CPU and a monitor at F000h with POJ to F000h and ram at F800h. Any time there is doubt about these they get a quick retest in a known backplane (NS*Horizon). This means the system will be 4 boards max with the 4th being the FDC in question. I keep a CCS terminator card handy as it seemed to work the best of all of them. Things I've found in old backplanes. Staples under the S100 connectors. Metal under the backplane shorting to chassis. Terminators with burned off tracks. Metal bits in the connectors Bits of nonconductor in the connectors. Green cruft in the connectors (corrosion) Black card edge connectors (gold over copper without nickle flash, a bad thing) Power supplies with excessive ripple. (tired caps) Power traces fried on the backplane (altair 4slots) Signal traces missing... from a former short? That doesn't even touch on cards that just didn't play well in some machines or with certain other cards. Heres an example of a machine. I have two explorer 8085s. One I built back when and another aquired. They are identical as best as I can see or test. Mine runs perfect, always did with any card I've tried. the second is flaky, won't run any S100 card without a bus terminator and even then it's fussy. I've gone as far as to completely swap every chip (they are fully socketed) between the one that is cranky and my old one is still happy and the newer one not. I've even swapped PSs ( uses s100 style unregulated) and no dice. All on board (there are a few) regulators replaced on the bad one. No help. After a LONG time of testing and all the problem was a high resistance trace on the faulty board. I can see the signal at the source IC solder side but between there and it's terminus it's a 1000ohm resistor! One of the S100 status signals was not quite there and floating. I bridged the trace with blue wire between the two solder pads and it's solid now. I cannot even with a 10x scope see where the apparent crack is. That's chasing a phantom. But I do find the oddest of the odd. >-Tarbell FD > >It has been running solid a 4K ROM monitor from Dave >Dunfield. Floppy interface still doesn't work on either card, and >these cards were tested by someone else on an IMSAI with an Altair CPU card. If it's the monitor I think, it doesnt stress ram just sitting there. You need a memory exerciser running at a minimum to be sure. >>Some Z80 cards complicate the issue. They have different timing and at 4mhz >>some ram MAY NOT be fast enough. Either slow the z80 to 2mhz or more wait >>states from ram. > >The card I have has a switch for 2MHz. The tarbell with the reduced >clock speed will not work at anything higher like you suggested. I >have confirmed (from the person who shipped me the tarbell cards) >that the tarbell card with a reduced clock speed works normally with >a Z80 at 2MHz. Doesnt assure the FDC is set right for the drive and media. Also doesnt assure the media is SD or even bootable. Further is the media is not using a 2sio as the IO the system could boot and crash or appear to. > >I attached a logic analyzer to the drive and watched all of the >signals. Every thing looks normal to me. I hooked it to a 5.25" >drive and then to a 3.5" drive. The drives are sending everything >that they should. Then the FDC is potentialy not decoding the data. > >>Shows how rough the bus timing and noise can be. Is that a one piece >>backplane of the two sided variety or the one of the earlier Altair >>4 slot chains or single sided backplane? The reason is the earlier > >2x4 slot motherboards, but all of the wires are the same length >(there was a tip on that to reduce noise) ICKPOO. Those were the worst for ringing and bus power sag. Poke a scope at it, it's nasty. >I'm going to let the thing heat soak and then check the bus with an >oscilloscope and the CPU clock. if the oneshots are good ones once set they should say put. Then again there was lore and fact about what was and wasn't good. >You know, I'm worried that the reliability issues aren't related to >the Altair, but to a heavily modified tarbell card trying to write a >Tandon SSSD 5.25" onto a 3.5" disk??? Likely if the data rates are not set right for the FDC and it's data seperator (usually also oneshots) is not set right it will fail. Could even be a simple bad IDC crimp on the cable. > >Would any of you like to see the data coming out of the disk >drive? I can upload the logic analyzer data to my web site... Not I. If I did at the very least I'd also need to see the schematic and jumper info for the tarbel. Other wise it's just a pretty picture. >I will never be happy until I find the problem. I'd like to think >that with all of the information we have that I can make the Altair >as reliable as any other S-100 system. I have collected a lot of >errata and have applied it all to my system... That's why I won't >give up with this setup. : ) Most of the erata is lore not hard tried fixes. Most fall in the "it worked for me" realm. The problem is you have a lot of still possibles lurking. Oh, SA400 drives... had a problem with them and all that used that frame (sa400, 400l and 450). Seems if the spindle bearings go bad the amount of jitter on the data can exceed that of simple data seperators used with 1771 (especially RS early TRS80 with early EI). I'm sure it's possible to have the same problem with other drives. Showed up best with the SA alignment disk and a dual trace scope set up for data read EYE pattern. Allison >Thanks, >Grant

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

S100 Floppy Controller Question

by dm561＠torfree.net

-------------Original Message: Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 19:32:38 -0500 From: "Richard A. Cini" <rcini at optonline.net> Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question Yes, I understand the 5-for-8 substitution. One of the challenges I'm having is finding a suitable disk image to try. If I get an 8" image I plan on jamming it onto a 5.25" HD disk and giving that a whirl. I made the "8"-only" distinction because one of the boards I have (the Versafloppy) has both connectors. It just saves a little time in not having to make a cable. ------------Reply: This is quite possibly not relevant to _your_ controller, but FWIW my Cromemcos have both the DD and the HD drives on the same cable, and the 50 pin connector is only used for the 'real' 8" drive. Although some of the signals have separate drivers/receivers, the 5 1/4 and 8" drives are effectively on the same bus; the only difference is that the 8" drives supply (and the FDC expects) a /READY signal on pin 22 (?) whereas the TM-100s did not supply that signal and the FDC does not look for it on the 5 1/4" cable; I suspect that's how the system distinguishes between the drives in order to select the correct speed. Modern HD drives _do_ supply a /READY signal on pin 34, although you'll probably have to change a jumper since PCs use it for Disk Change; the jumpers are in fact often labelled DC and RDY. Therefore all that is required is a jumper on the FDC from pin 34 of the 5" connector to pin 22 of the 8" (and of course any DD 5 1/4 drives must have their /READY signal disabled if it's active). The only other FDC I have any experience with is a Micropolis, and it _does_ use the /READY signal from its DD drives (although it looks for it on pin 6, which is normally DS3 or 4), so this wouldn't work. m

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

VXT2000+

by Rinaldo.Eversdijk＠stork.com

Hi Henk, I'm in the Netherlands and I would like to have the unit as well. We are still using it in a sort of test environment and we have a defect power supply in one of them. We are willing to pay the shipping and additional costs. Regards Rinaldo -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Henk Gooijen Sent: zondag 11 november 2007 13:02 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: VXT2000+ Hi ?ngel, I checked the TPG website. Pity that the unit is just over 5 kilos, that would have saved 5 euro. Shipping inside Europe will be 24 euros. I have to find a good box to ship it safely ...If you are interested, send me an off-list e-mail. BTW, I have been in Granada and seen the beautiful Alhambra! thanks, Henk > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 12:47:38 +0100> From: ama at ugr.es> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: VXT2000+> > Hi Henk,> > On Sun, Nov 11, 2007 at 11:45:56AM +0100, Henk Gooijen wrote:> > I am about to throw out a complete VXT2000+> > Shipping overseas is probably not worth it> > (I am in The Neterlands), but if somebody> > needs a specific part, I am willing to disassemble> > the VXT before it becomes landfill. The VXT is> > in good shape AFAIK, but can not test it ... > > I might be interested on the terminal if shipping price permits :-)> > How much could it be to ship to Granada, Spain?> > Thanks and greetings,> ?ngel> > -- > Angel Martin Alganza Tel +34 958 248 926> Departamento de Genetica Fax +34 958 244 073> Universidad de Granada mailto:ama at ugr.es> C/ Fuentenueva s/n http://www.ugr.es/~ama/> E-18071 Granada, Spain JabberID alganza at jabber.org> PGP Public key: http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key> 3EB2 967A 9404 6585 7086 8811 2CEC 2F81 9341 E591> ------------------------------------------------------> () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/> /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments> http://linux.sgms-centre.com/advocacy/no-ms-office.php -------------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: This e-mail and any attachment(s) sent with it are intended exclusively for the addressee(s), and may not be used by, opened by, passed on to, or made available for use to, any person other than the addressee(s). Stork rules out any and all liabilities resulting from any electronic transmission.

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

MUSIC 4B

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> Does MUSIC 4B still exist? Barry Vercoe at the Media Lab might know. I don't think CHM has a copy. From memory, MIT's MUSIC 11 has roots in the Bell program.

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Cameron- you're server's still down

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

Been trying to re-send, but it looks like your server still isn't quite right.

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

HP2116 inventory

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> if someone has service > manuals for the C it would be nice if scans could eventually find their way to bitsavers. I have a lot of material for the C as well as B from a large collection I obtained a few years ago. The only thing I don't appear to have are the schematics for the 2116A. All this needs to get sorted out to be included with material available through the HP/CHM agreement.

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

MUSIC 4B

by wdonzelli＠gmail.com

One of my fun finds at the Record Fair while you folks were all out at VCF X is Paul Zukofsky's Lyric Variations for Violin and Computer, >from 1967. Several of the pieces were made by an IBM 7094 running the MUSIC 4B program - non-real-time digital synthesis software. The pieces are interesting, and really sound like anything a good sized Moog modular could have made, but these pieces were done completely by the 7094 to seven track tape in batch mode, where they were later fed into a D/A converter in the studio. Listening to these, and knowing what went into making them, make them a bit more special than just music. Does MUSIC 4B still exist? Maybe this is an Al question. It certainly would be neat to play around with on a 7094 simulator. -- Will

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Older Apple Macintosh books, manuals, Apple 2e card.

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

On Nov 11, 2007, at 2:08 PM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Those Apple // cards, are they the actual 100% emulation of the //e or > //c under old PDS Macs? Was there a SCSI 5.25" drive for Macs that > would read the Apple // disks? > The Apple // cards (I think it was a //e) fit in the LC PDS (LC, LCII, LCIII, not sure about the '040 LCs) and are a genuine Apple product that was pretty much 100%. While most of the (usually schools) using them would move their Apple // software to either 3.5" or hard disk, I think that Apple made a Macintosh-compatible 5.25" floppy that would read Apple // disks (I know they made an IBM 5.25"-compatible floppy drive for Macintosh back in the late 1980s), but not many were sold. Pretty well engineered device if you have a LC-series Mac.

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs

by dkelvey＠hotmail.com

> From: trixter at oldskool.org> > Jay West wrote:> > Jim wrote...> >> Public Service Announcement: The entire world of classic computer > >> collectors/restorers/enthusiasts is *not* made up of DEC-heads. Other > >> companies existed; other niches exist. It's a big hobby out there.> > > > Someone take a picture. Jim and I are in complete agreement on something ;)> > Holy mackerel :-) Hi I wish there was more talk about the Canon Cat but I also realize that it is quite rare( although, Jack Rubin just found one ). R. Cini's thread is of interest to me because I've built up a CP/M BIOS from scratch. Still, it is Jay's job to keep this list from just diverging into what ever. I've seen one of the news groups that's original charter was great that fell to a wasteland without the vigilance of a moderator. I'd not like to see that happen to this list. I think most ( including me ) have the occasional OT post but some seem to think that that is what the list is for. I try to police myself because I know how annoying it is to post that I could care less about. It is still a great list. Many on the list are great contributors. It is not a place to stand on a soap box and tell the world about everything that they can think of. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook ? together at last. ?Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL1006269…

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Systems Industries Model 9400 Disc Controller

by technobug＠comcast.net

A friend's 11/70 has gone through the last of his SI 9400 disk controller spares and he has tasked me with the repair task. Does anyone have documentation for this beast? CRC

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Who keeps buying DECTalks?

by wdonzelli＠gmail.com

> I suspect they're being purchased by dealers. I'd like one, but > haven't been willing to shell out the $$$'s. Dealers do not buy many things on Ebay - a general rule of thumb. It does not make much sense for dealer to pay top dollar for stuff. Lets see - 1) its DEC 1) its old 1) its cool. Collector demand? Nahhhh.... -- Will

18 years, 9 months

3
2
0 0

S100 Floppy Controller Question

by dm561＠torfree.net

-------------Original Messages: Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:23:30 -0500 From: "Richard A. Cini" <rcini at optonline.net> Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question Good. The Morrow controller then falls into the same category in my mind as the ComprPro Disk 1 with the added bonus of not requiring mods to my IMSAI. Now the thousand-dollar question -- does anyone have a suitable disk image I could use? On 11/11/07 10:55 AM, "Tim Shoppa" <shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com> wrote: > "Richard A. Cini" <rcini at optonline.net> wrote: >> Oh, I also just found a Morrow DiskJockey 2D/B in one of my boxes. This >> model has only a 50-pin connector and the manual talks about the SA800, so >> I'm assuming it's an 8"-only controller. > > Well, originally intended for 8" drives, but with a suitable adapter > cable glue and a slightly modified BIOS it'll do 5.25" and 3.5" drives. > > Tim. Rich ----------Reply: I think Tim's point was that if your controller's smart enough to deal with a relatively modern 8" drive like a TM848 it could probably deal equally well with a 5.25" HD drive and you could transparently restore an 8" image (if you have one) to the 5.25" disk. The controller (and CP/M) would not even know that it's a 5.25 instead of an 8"; my Cromemcos certainly don't, although a different FDC might well require some mods to the BIOS. Worth a try in any case. m

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

Furguson Big Board II (was CRC question)

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> My Bigboard II has a bit of interesting code in the EPROM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigboard The EPROM source was available with the board, there should be no need to disassemble it.

18 years, 9 months

3
3
0 0

S100 Floppy Controller Question

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question > From: M H Stein <dm561 at torfree.net> > Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 17:33:20 -0500 > To: "'cctalk at classiccmp.org'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >-------------Original Messages: >Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:23:30 -0500 >From: "Richard A. Cini" <rcini at optonline.net> >Subject: Re: S100 Floppy Controller Question > >Good. The Morrow controller then falls into the same category in my mind as >the ComprPro Disk 1 with the added bonus of not requiring mods to my IMSAI. The Compupro only uses pines 20 and 70 for ground, you can cut if needed. HOWEVER and VERY BIG DEAL the CPRO 1 can boot... 8" or 5.25". The Cpro 1A is more adept at that and more flexible. Both have the problem of if you boot any of the sandard CPRO images the assumed serial port is one of the standards used by CPRO. The manual will help with this. >Now the thousand-dollar question -- does anyone have a suitable disk image I >could use? > CPRO images are out there. If you go with 5.25" a PC can write a DD boot disk (uses same 765!). Also if you can boot a 5.25" image you can boot a 3.5" image of the track/sector layout is same and same density. > >On 11/11/07 10:55 AM, "Tim Shoppa" <shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com> >wrote: > >> "Richard A. Cini" <rcini at optonline.net> wrote: >>> Oh, I also just found a Morrow DiskJockey 2D/B in one of my boxes. This >>> model has only a 50-pin connector and the manual talks about the SA800, so >>> I'm assuming it's an 8"-only controller. >> >> Well, originally intended for 8" drives, but with a suitable adapter >> cable glue and a slightly modified BIOS it'll do 5.25" and 3.5" drives. >> >> Tim. > >Rich > >----------Reply: > >I think Tim's point was that if your controller's smart enough to deal with a >relatively modern 8" drive like a TM848 it could probably deal equally >well with a 5.25" HD drive and you could transparently restore an 8" image >(if you have one) to the 5.25" disk. The controller (and CP/M) would not >even know that it's a 5.25 instead of an 8"; my Cromemcos certainly don't, >although a different FDC might well require some mods to the BIOS. Different FDC WILL require a different bios. Same for SERIAL IO. Allison >Worth a try in any case. > >m

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Who keeps buying DECTalks?

by silent700＠gmail.com

On 11/11/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote: > I suspect they're being purchased by dealers. I'd like one, but > haven't been willing to shell out the $$$'s. Grrr, dealers. Yep there are quite a few in the for-sale section of ebay for $500 and up. Uh, no thanks.

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

modern serial terminal

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: modern serial terminal > From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> > Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2007 16:48:04 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >On Wed, 7 Nov 2007, ajones wrote: >> There was never a version of Linux, or UNIX in general, less bloated >> than Windows 95. > >Xenix ran on an 8088 XT with 640K. The IBM XT hard disk controller could >be jumpered (undocumented) to handle other sizes of drives other than the >412 (10MB). One of those sizes was 26MB, which was just right for a 10MB >DOS partition and a 16MB Xenix partition (that was how I found out about >the XT hard disk controller's undocumented jumper solder pads) > > >> [1] Yes, Windows 95 had memory protection and preemptive multitasking. > >Are there multiple definitions of "preemptive"? >Or, is "preemptive" a quantitative, rather than qualitative attribute? >I would not consider Win95, nor early Mac, to be "preemptive". Even NT4, >which is purportedly preemptive has a few two many situations where/when >it can not be preempted. For example, when opening a telnet session, it >often can NOT be preempted until it gets to the point of success or failure. Time for a topic change. Is that an OS failure or an application failure? As I see it and run it NT is preemtive but applications can block or alter lower priority tasks making it possile to do nasty thing like block keyboard task. I suspect it's legacy plus the tendancy to make forground tasks the higher priortity may have something to do with it. Linux and VMS seem to be clearly preemptive as are a number of other OSs. Allison

18 years, 9 months

26
66
0 0

Tarbell is making me insane

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane > From: Grant Stockly <grant at stockly.com> > Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:02:00 -0900 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >At 10:11 AM 11/8/2007, you wrote: >>On Wednesday 07 November 2007 10:53, Allison wrote: >> > Also sounds like oneshot problems. Check cpu timing. Even small timing >> > errors tend to magnify bus noise issues and incompability problems. >>(Snip) >> > Also HEAT. That thing despite a very heafty noisy fan and cover mods >> > didn't like heat. FYI: the timing of the oneshots drifts with heating! >> >>This probably explains a lot why I encounter 9602 (and the LS variant) fairly >>often in stuff that's otherwise full of the standard 74xx (or LS) parts. >> >>I remember back in 1978 trying (unsuccessfully) to make an interface >>board for >>a dual cassette deck that we had on trial to work with the H11 system I'd >>built for this company. The fella on the phone warned me to stay away from >>the '123 parts for just this sort of reason... > >Its not the one shots... I installed a Cromenco ZPU card and it also crashes. Some Z80 cards complicate the issue. They have diffent timing and at 4mhz some ram MAY NOT be fast enough. Either slow the z80 to 2mhz or more wait states from ram. FYI: the Seals 8k [most 2102 basd cards] cards are marginal for Z80 above about 2.5mhz. >I really wanted to get this setup working. In my experience, the >Altair disk subsystem with a half dozen one shots is more reliable >and predictable to the Tarbell (hehehe). And taht experience was >with a CPU card that had one shots so out of spec according to the >intel data sheets the 8080 should not run. > >Now I have a CPU card that has been tweaked to have perfect CPU clock >timing. Nothing. : ( Also make sure the crystal osc is really running at 2mhz. Mine would sometimes take off at 4 or 6mhz until I dumped it for 8224. Shows how rough the bus timing and noise can be. Is that a one piece backplane of the two sided variety or the one of the earlier Altair 4 slot chains or single sided backplane? The reason is the earlier two styles were noisy at best and terminators didn't work well on them. Replaced the backplne with WAMCO unit and the problem improved and terminations worked. The front pannel still induced a lot of ringing on the bus. >My next guess is going to be switching the disk drive to run off of >power from the Altair. The disk drive is getting about 5.25v from >the AT computer power supply and the S-100 boards are regulating >their 5v to 4.95v. I really don't think that could be a problem, but Thats not it. Do make sure the drive and it's DC have a good common ground. >I'm willing to investigate anything right now. I am going to give >the manual a close look and make sure there aren't Altair specific >wiring instructions that were missed. I just can't figure out why it >is going crazy! I might have to get out the oscilloscope. You might. One thing to check. Is the raw BUS voltages at least 8V and 16V?? I when through two sets of PS mods to get enough power for a 48K of 8K 2102 rams, a VDM1, Altair PIO, Altair SIO plus eventually a NS* MDS. >I installed all of the boards in a "vintage" Altair with less luck. Thats why mine is retired. I'd feel different if it were an 8800B. >Grrr... This is the 3rd Tarbell card I've used trying to get >something good. The cards are modified by someone, work PERFECT in >his IMSAI with one of my reproduction 8080 CPU cards, and mailed to >me. He found that he needed a terminator to make it work, so I >installed a terminator that he sent me. The terminator only made >things worse. It could be the front pannel doing something to you. Now your getting a feel for what life was like for an Altair owning early adoptor. I still really feel that the hardware issues I fought with delayed my developing software efforts. It was when I went to the NS* and Netronics Explorer 8085 that I stopped chasing hardware and started working with higher level languages and system performance. Allison >Grant

18 years, 9 months

3
2
0 0

LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs (was: Video Clips)

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:32:20 -0800 From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> Subject: Re: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs (was: Video Clips) To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <47373CA4.2070905 at bitsavers.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > For me "classic" computers > > are the ones created between 1977 & 1990ish & yes, this includes the early > > IBM PC's.Until the PET thread started I was getting seriously bored with the > > list, now it's interesting again. >Try http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/search.php?do=getdaily >which may be more appropriate to your interests. >You won't have to worry about people talking about anything other than consumer >computers there. ---------------- A different population from this list to be sure, broadly speaking, but nevertheless CP/M, DEC, Cromemco, IMSAI etc. are discussed there as well as WIN3.1, and since it's a forum format you can pick & choose your interest. And I agree with the OP that, certainly from a broad historical perspective of computers, old IBM PCs, PETs etc. are just as important and 'classic' in their respective segments as Altairs, IMSAIs and even DECs, regardless of one's personal bias. m

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

CD Question

by jrkeys＠concentric.net

Anyone on the list have IBM 1401, A User's Manual music CD? I ordered it last week but it has not come yet. If you have it what do think about it? John

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

CRC question

by rtellason＠verizon.net

That recent discussion on the CRC chip got me to thinking about something that I hadn't thought of for some years now... My Bigboard II has a bit of interesting code in the EPROM, that does a sort of sanity check on itself. Some sort of a CRC algorithm (I'd have to dig out the code for exact details, and have NO idea of where I'd find it at this point). This thing had six sockets altogether, only 24-pin, so I couldn't put any bigger than a 2732 in them, and one of the nifty features in the code in that one that came with it was that it'd check the _second_ socket the same way. That way, if you had an appropriately-coded chip in there it'd just hand off to it. Seems handy to me as a way to just get the darn thing to boot a disk without you having to tell it to do so. Unfortunately, I have *no* idea how one would make an eprom have the appropriate CRC results. I suspect that one of the important details would be the exact polynomial used to generate the CRC in the first place, and I don't have that handy at the moment, have to figure out just where the heck that is... But any suggestions as to where I might research this further would be appreciated. For some reason, in spite of me having seen lots and lots of full-page ads in Micro-Cornucopia and elsewhere during that time, I can find almost nothing on the machine on the 'net these days. Which is a shame, as it's a nice board, in a lot of ways... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin

18 years, 9 months

4
14
0 0

S100 Floppy Controller Question

by rcini＠optonline.net

All: Now that the weather in the Northeast is cold again, I?m picking up on some old projects, among which is the floppy system for my IMSAI. Here?s what I want ? a 5.25? dual-disk system running CP/M 2.2 (my IMSAI has a Z80 board in it). Here?s what I have ? plenty of 5.25? TM100 and equivalent drives, a CompuPro Disk 1 and an SD Sales Versafloppy (not II). The Versafloppy specifies SA400/450, but I think other 5.25? drives will work. Here?s what I don?t have ? a working disk image for either of the above. Dave Dunfield has a disk image for a Disk 1A but it?s from an 8? original. Also, the ComprPro controller seems to require modifying the IMSAI front panel to disable it (by removing the ground on pin 20 IIRC). I really don?t want to modify the front panel. I browsed the Versafloppy manual quickly and it doesn?t seem to require modifications to the host machine. Given this, does anyone have a Versafloppy image I can use? Alternatively, I?d gladly trade what I have for a board/disk that would work. I would even consider trading other stuff for it, including the 8? drive system I have that is the bane of my existence. Thanks again for any help. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp

18 years, 9 months

4
7
0 0

HP2116 inventory

by jam＠magic.com

Jules, > We recently managed to (finally!) get our HP 2116 machines out of 'deep store' > and into the light of day, and some initial cleaning work was done on the > panels earlier. It appears that many of the boards, especially in the 2116C, have just been placed into arbitrary slots. You will also need to double-check some of the part numbers on the boards to be sure that the 2116B and 2116C boards have not been put into the wrong chassis. For example, it may be that some of the boards in the 2116B are 2116C boards and vice versa. I can send you a more complete list of which boards belong in which slots, but that will be just part of the story, in order to get these machines running. Overall, it looks like you have close to a complete 2116C and 2116B, though you are missing the I/O boards that would have been used in a dual processor system. James Markevitch

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

Old Sun diags questions (4/300 and 3/200)

by aek＠bitsavers.org

>> Another question- so far I have had two Sun-3 era machines (a >> Carrera CPU in a CADDstation and a Sun 3/200 CPU) develop "all >> lights on" catatonia. Is this a common problem with Sun-3s? I'm >> wondering if I should take the time to trace out the 3/200 board >> (preferably with hints on where to look), give it away, or junk it >> (I have a working 3/110 system, so I won't be destitute of Sun-3s). >> > Not common at all...I have run literally hundreds of Sun-3 systems > and have *never* seen that failure mode. Check the EPROMS. Clearing the LEDs happens early in the boot process so either the processor is totally hosed or the boot EPROMS have bit rot.

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs (was: Video Clips)

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> For me "classic" computers > are the ones created between 1977 & 1990ish & yes, this includes the early > IBM PC's.Until the PET thread started I was getting seriously bored with the > list, now it's interesting again. Try http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/search.php?do=getdaily which may be more appropriate to your interests. You won't have to worry about people talking about anything other than consumer computers there.

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Old Sun diags questions (4/300 and 3/200)

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

Couple of questions on old Sun machines (well, parts). On a Sun 4300 CPU board, I'm getting the "EEPROM Write-Write-Read-Read test error PA=0xF2000000 VA=0X00FF8000 Exp=0x0000005a Obs=0x00000000 (looping)" error. Looking on the Web and Usenet seems to show that this has happened a couple of times, with some reference to possibly being the NVRAM (although the most comprehensive posing set was in German :(). This seems a bit odd, though - on my other Suns it calls the NVRAM the NVRAM, so I'm wondering if this is something else. J1900 1-2 is connected (4MB SIMM option), so it shouldn't be that (or is there something else needed to be done- not sure if this is a 4/330, or if there is any board-level reason that it couldn't use 4MB SIMMS). Another question- so far I have had two Sun-3 era machines (a Carrera CPU in a CADDstation and a Sun 3/200 CPU) develop "all lights on" catatonia. Is this a common problem with Sun-3s? I'm wondering if I should take the time to trace out the 3/200 board (preferably with hints on where to look), give it away, or junk it (I have a working 3/110 system, so I won't be destitute of Sun-3s).

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

old Laserdisk players

by marvin＠west.net

I still have 30 or 40 LD-V1000s (basically NOS) so I didn't feel too bad about tearing one of them (that didn't work the first time) apart. What I found interesting is that they use a Z80 as the processor. Also, most of the ones I have gave significant picture jitter when I first checked them out. Turned out that there is a pot inside that has a connection to where the laser is on the disk. That pot somehow got "noisy" over the past 15 - 20 years they have been sitting and a combination of contact cleaners made the machine operate as new again. And the service manual is available on-line at the Dragon's-Lair-Project website. As an aside, that website also has the diagrams to make up a centronics plug to be able to start the laserdisk playing. *REALLY* nice for checking out a unit! A friend of mine also has all of the alignment jigs in case I wanted to go that far into repairing these things. > From: Jeff Jonas <jeffj at panix.com> > > I pulled apart an old InfoTrac library system that used a > Pioneer LD-V1000 since CD-ROM drives were not yet available. > Top loader, CAV disks only. Real He-Ne laser on the sled. > The Centronix connector was a proprietory parallel port > controlling video playback, getting frame # > and it allowed reading digital data if it was recorded in that format > (video playback was still NTSC, no digital at all, not even a frame buffer).

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Oddball hard drive failure...

by julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk

I've got a Magnetic Peripherals 94211-91 SCSI drive here where the magnets for the head stack seem to have been coated - at least around the edges - with some form of paint. The paint's now begun to flake off, jamming up the head assembly and preventing the drive from seeking properly (sometimes it wouldn't spin up at all, other times it'd spin up, flop the heads around as much as it could, and then power down again) Anyone seen this particular mode of failure before? It's a new one on me... With nothing to lose (after ruling out other possibilities, and I'd already popped the lid on the drive expecting to see the aftermath of a head crash) I removed the top magnet from the head assembly (without disturbing the heads themselves or their pivot point) and cleaned everything out as best I could. I was doing it more for giggles than anything - but I was amazed when, after replacing the magnet, the drive actually powered up, stayed powered up, and was detected by the OS. It's not in particularly good health - I'm about 14MB into the archive process and I've got about 500KB of dead blocks so far. Doubtful I'll be able to get any meaningful data out of whatever filesystems were on it with that level of corruption, but I suppose it'd be silly not to at least try! cheers Jules

18 years, 9 months

5
7
0 0

VXT2000+

by henk.gooijen＠hotmail.com

Hi all, I am about to throw out a complete VXT2000+ Shipping overseas is probably not worth it (I am in The Neterlands), but if somebody needs a specific part, I am willing to disassemble the VXT before it becomes landfill. The VXT is in good shape AFAIK, but can not test it ... Henk, PA8PDP

18 years, 9 months

2
2
0 0

HP2116 inventory

by julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk

We recently managed to (finally!) get our HP 2116 machines out of 'deep store' and into the light of day, and some initial cleaning work was done on the panels earlier. I did a quick inventory: 2116B 2116C 2160A (PSU) 2161A (PSU) 2748A (tape reader) HP1016C (two - 512 track drum) One of our guys managed to flip the front door catches (the keys for the machines are long-gone), so I was able to take a board listing too: 2116B: slot board 1 pwr fail / AR 10 sense amplifier 11 sense amplifier 12 sense amplifier 13 sense amplifier 14 driver switch 15 driver switch 16 inhibit driver 18 inhibit driver 20 DML 22 sense amplifier 101 A101 102 A102-105 103 A102-105 104 A102-105 106 A106 107 A107 108 A108 110 EAU logic 111 EAU timing 116 DMA word count 117 DMA word count 118 DMA address enc. 119 DMA control 120 DMA packer 201 A201 202 central interr. 211 I/O multiplexor 214 tape reader 216 I/O multiplexor 218 buss loader 2116C: slot board 101 A101 102 A102-105 103 A102-105 104 A102-105 105 A102-105 106 A106 107 A107 201 A201 205 A108 206 MDB / A13 207 power fail 208 power fail 209 power fail 210 power fail 211 power fail 212 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 213 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 214 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 215 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 216 MMD / A2 217 sense amplifier 218 MMD / A2 219 driver switch / A8,9,14,15 220 MDB / A13 things found kicking around in the 2116C case: Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A6 (made by Ferroxcube corporation) Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A6 (made by Ampex) Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A4, A6, A7 (international scientific) 'short' board, HP assy. 02116-8015 'short' board, HP assy. 02160-60031 power fail board (identical to the ones in card slots) unknown full-size board, HP 1150-1198. Most of the boards sitting in the card slots are just loose, i.e. not plugged into the backplane, so there's no guarantee they're in the right place (the bottom row of the 2116C machine looks particularly disorganised). Anyone familiar with the systems know if this is anything like two machines' worth though? Or is it some sort of dual-cabinet system, and one crate was likely just I/O with the other for CPU? Nice to finally see inside them anyway, as for all we knew they could have been completely stripped out inside... I *assume* the pair of drums go with them, but there's no guarantee there (I'm just not sure what they *do* belong with if it isn't these machines :-) cheers Jules

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

Who wants some press in south florida?

by brucebaur＠att.net

Jay Did you ever come up with a fix for the DC300 tension loop that breaks? I have two Tektronix 4051 computers that works great. I just wish I could save some of the tapes. Thanks for any help you might be able to extend, Bruce

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

Anyone interested in some Xyplex terminal servers?

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

I have several Xyplex terminal servers - One MaxServer 4500 with 5x16 port cards and one enet module One MaxServer 5000 with 12x8 port cards, 2x LAN interface (ethernet) and 1x NetManagement module (including the floppies) one Xyplex 1500 1U 16-port terminal server 2x Network 9000 PS/130 power supply modules Any interest? Renton, WA area.

18 years, 9 months

2
2
0 0

HP2116 inventory

by jam＠magic.com

We recently managed to (finally!) get our HP 2116 machines out of 'deep store' and into the light of day, and some initial cleaning work was done on the panels earlier. I did a quick inventory: 2116B 2116C 2160A (PSU) 2161A (PSU) 2748A (tape reader) HP1016C (two - 512 track drum) One of our guys managed to flip the front door catches (the keys for the machines are long-gone), so I was able to take a board listing too: 2116B: slot board 1 pwr fail / AR 10 sense amplifier 11 sense amplifier 12 sense amplifier 13 sense amplifier 14 driver switch 15 driver switch 16 inhibit driver 18 inhibit driver 20 DML 22 sense amplifier 101 A101 102 A102-105 103 A102-105 104 A102-105 106 A106 107 A107 108 A108 110 EAU logic 111 EAU timing 116 DMA word count 117 DMA word count 118 DMA address enc. 119 DMA control 120 DMA packer 201 A201 202 central interr. 211 I/O multiplexor 214 tape reader 216 I/O multiplexor 218 buss loader 2116C: slot board 101 A101 102 A102-105 103 A102-105 104 A102-105 105 A102-105 106 A106 107 A107 201 A201 205 A108 206 MDB / A13 207 power fail 208 power fail 209 power fail 210 power fail 211 power fail 212 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 213 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 214 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 215 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18 216 MMD / A2 217 sense amplifier 218 MMD / A2 219 driver switch / A8,9,14,15 220 MDB / A13 things found kicking around in the 2116C case: Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A6 (made by Ferroxcube corporation) Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A6 (made by Ampex) Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A4, A6, A7 (international scientific) 'short' board, HP assy. 02116-8015 'short' board, HP assy. 02160-60031 power fail board (identical to the ones in card slots) unknown full-size board, HP 1150-1198. Most of the boards sitting in the card slots are just loose, i.e. not plugged into the backplane, so there's no guarantee they're in the right place (the bottom row of the 2116C machine looks particularly disorganised). Anyone familiar with the systems know if this is anything like two machines' worth though? Or is it some sort of dual-cabinet system, and one crate was likely just I/O with the other for CPU? Nice to finally see inside them anyway, as for all we knew they could have been completely stripped out inside..

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines.

by ajp166＠bellatlantic.net

> >Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines. > From: "Bob Shannon" <bshannon at tiac.net> > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:03:43 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Is anyone familiar with vacuum tube indicators used on transistor logic >machines? > >I recently found a small rack filled with small transistor logic modules. >Each module holds a flip flop or two at most. >The modules are small PC boards with a metal frame and handle. Test points >give you the state of each transistor >on the module. > >Several modules have some sort of visual indicator tube as well. > >These tubes are not much larger than a standard NE-2 bulb, but they more >resemble subminiature vacuum tubes. > >The tubes are marked 01037 J3, each had four leads. Two of these leads >shows a resistance of 9.8 Ohms, and >appears to be a low voltage filament. One is grounded, the other is >connected to a bus in the rack of logic. > >There is no 'getter flash' inside the glass tube, so they may be some sort >of glow discharge tube. > >Looking at the insides of each tube thee appears to be a very fine V style >filament and a grid-like structure, but >I see no clear anode or plate structures. There are two thin 'wires' >outside of the grid, one in front and one >behind the central grid-like / filament structure. > >The logic itself is made from 2N414 transistors, mil-spec at one time, >covered in conformal coating. Markings >show this device came from the USAF Airborne Instrumentation Labs. I only >have a small part of some >larger system, but I would like to power this rack of logic up and see these >indicators in action. > >There is something very familiar about these things. They remind me of >something I may have seen once >in a telephone switching application when I was in the USAF long ago. > >Any idea what these things may be? I'll try to get a digital photo, but the >tubes are mounted under small >metal clips with short leads. > They are vacuum florescent indicators. the anode (part that will glow) is +V applied around 16-40V range and the cathode (most minus voltage) is formed by the two wires that are a filliment (heater to some). Some flavors of these also have a grid between the heater and the anode and act like a triode vacuum tube in that if the grid is sufficiently negative compared to the cathode/heater the tube will not glow if it is zero or positive (a few volts) the tube will glow. The transistors are then not required to handle much voltage or current as 2n414 was a low power alloy junction germainium (Vce of -20V and Pd of 150mW) so it could not switch much current or voltage. Any display used had to be operatble with less than 20V (more like 15or less) and only a few milliamps. I've also seen several such racks and displays down in RI. Basically the system is built of standard logic elements available in the late 50s early 60s and an element could be a gate or Flip flop and likely not many gates and only one FF to a card. Voltages were typically low in the less than 15V range. The cards rarely were a complete computer but more like a sequencer or other fixed logic system that was designed for a specific use. Use care powering that as power supplies may have bad caps, and wires may be cut/shorted. Allison

18 years, 9 months

14
39
0 0

Video clips (was Re: modern serial terminal)

by aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk

Jay wrote: >> >> Ok, I'll trump your VCD with... >> >> Laserdisc Is this thread somewhat vaguely related to classic computing? Yup. The first (and only) time I saw a laserdisc was around 1991. I was at school and among the Acorn Archemedes in the computer room (so called because it was full of computers!) was a newfangled piece of kit. It looked like a vinyl LP player, but had a shiny disc on it the size of an LP. We were told not to go near it , presumably because of the laser. When the teacher left the room at lunchbreak some of us did take a closer look, but being about 12 at the time (and having never owned a CD player at that time) I was rather clueless as to what it was. I know laserdiscs are largely used for films (hence why I can see why Jay thought they were off-topic), but I believe this one had some sort of software on it. Not sure now whether the laserdisc player was hooked up to one of the Archemedes, or some new computer. Almost all the computers at school were Acorn Archemedes, except for a handfull of BBC's. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

old Laserdisk players

by jeffj＠panix.com

> OK I'll bring it back around.....during VCF Midwest I saw a > DEC-branded Laserdisc unit at Pat's computer wonderland. Was it a top loader or a tray? I pulled apart an old InfoTrac library system that used a Pioneer LD-V1000 since CD-ROM drives were not yet available. Top loader, CAV disks only. Real He-Ne laser on the sled. The Centronix connector was a proprietory parallel port controlling video playback, getting frame # and it allowed reading digital data if it was recorded in that format (video playback was still NTSC, no digital at all, not even a frame buffer). citing http://www.laserdiscarchive.co.uk/laserdisc_archive/pioneer/pioneer_ld-v100… This is an NTSC laser disc player that was used in Astron Belt (with proper hardware), Badlands (with different EPROM), Casino Strip, Cobra Command (with proper hardware), Dragon's Lair, Esh's Aurunmilla, Galaxy Ranger (with proper hardware), Interstellar, Space Ace, Super Don Quixote, and Thayer's Quest

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

Silicon Graphics Indigo2 hard drive spinup time issues

by jlobocki＠gmail.com

hello all, i have an SGI indigo2 which ive installed a 2GB IBM hard drive in. however, >from a cold boot, i receive a drive/cable error, and it asks me to press any key to continue. when i do, i press start system and it all comes to life. im assuming it takes longer for the drive to spin up than the indigo2 takes to wait for the drive. is there a way to adjust this? thanks

18 years, 9 months

3
2
0 0

Tektronix 4051

by cc＠corti-net.de

We've got a Tektronix 4051 with the optional Data Comms Interface and tons of tape cartridges. As the belts in the Scotch/3M DC300 tapes are worn out or torn I need to copy the contents 1:1 to other media. But how? The simplest would be to write a simple BASIC program that will read in each tape file and send it over V.24 (and back again for new media). I'm looking for a solution that will work with all file types (e.g. SECRET program files). It would be nice if there was a way to program the 4051 in machine language in order to have raw access to the files and its headers. Christian

18 years, 9 months

5
8
0 0

cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 31

by compoobah＠valleyimplants.com

On Nov 10, 2007, at 10:00 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > hello all, > i have an SGI indigo2 which ive installed a 2GB IBM hard drive in. > however, > from a cold boot, i receive a drive/cable error, and it asks me to > press any > key to continue. when i do, i press start system and it all comes to > life. > im assuming it takes longer for the drive to spin up than the indigo2 > takes > to wait for the drive. is there a way to adjust this? thanks Which drive? IBM has a number of 2GB drives, and I know definitely that one of them (0664) doesn't work in a R3k Indigo at all. OTOH, SGI OEMed some IBM drives, so it isn't all of them (the 0664 was originally from a RS/6000 AFAIK). The Hitachi site has setup sheets still for many old IBM drives - see if there's a "spinup on power-on" jumper.

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

modern serial terminal

by aijones2＠bsu.edu

> > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:31:28 -0700 > From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> > Subject: Re: modern serial terminal > > PS. I like windows/95 over the latest versions of linux ... Too much bloat. > There was never a version of Linux, or UNIX in general, less bloated than Windows 95. Windows 95 will very comfortably get you TCP/IP, protected memory, preemptive multitasking[1], and a graphical desktop on a 486 SX with 8M of RAM. Linux 2.0 with XF86 3.x was a carnival of swapping on that configuration. Solaris x86 wouldn't even boot. If Windows 3.1 was the last nail in the coffin for UNIX on the desktop, Windows 95 was the last shovel of dirt and the weepy obit. It's almost fun to load up Redhat 4 on a typical PC of the day and watch it take twenty minutes to boot. [1] Yes, Windows 95 had memory protection and preemptive multitasking. All native win32 and native kernel code ran that way. The catch was that 16 bit drivers and applications were exempted from these restrictions. Worse still, Windows 95 shipped with some 16 bit drivers for generic devices, giving you a broken configuration out of the box on a lot of hardware.

18 years, 9 months

26
54
0 0

cctalk Digest, Vol 51, Issue 29

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 16:54:18 -0500 (EST) From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Subject: Re: Commodore PET >DRAM!? In a PET?! That is crazy talk! ;) There was never even DRAM in >the C64... Although I believe the SuperCPU used DRAM memory, but that >was third-party. -------- Say what? AFAIK all their stuff used DRAM except for the first two 8K versions and the oddball VIC-20 (or VolksComputer as it was known in Germany to avoid the connotations of a certain homonym of VIC, pronounced 'fick' in German...), which they probably produced to use up 2114s left over from the old PETs ;-) I've never owned or seen any 8K PETs other than the 6540/6550 version, but as Ethan says there was a 2114 version with industry-standard ROMS; >=16K units were all DRAM AFAIK. Once DRAM caught on it didn't make economic sense to use SRAM in any quantity; look at S-100 boards. m

18 years, 9 months

3
4
0 0

Commodore PET

by dm561＠torfree.net

-----------Original Message(s): Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:38:08 +1300 From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at usap.gov> Subject: Re: Commodore PET To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20071110063808.GA31194 at usap.gov> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 09:23:25PM -0700, Richard wrote: > > That's cool! This is the first I've heard of bitmapped graphics on > the PET. The first bit-mapped board I saw for the PET was by, IIRC, MTU. It was advertised in Byte, etc., in the day. Never saw one up close, just screenshots of plotted mathematical equations. -ethan ------------Reply: Ah, their logo, the ubiquitous 'hat'... Just happen to have one; the first version was actually designed for the KIM & SYM (SRAM BTW) and when the PET came out they made an adapter board for it; the second version was specifically for the PET and had DRAM, and they could both also be used as ordinary expansion memory. They also made music boards & software for KIM/SYM/PET, expansion chassis, and other neat stuff for 6502-powered machines. Their catalogue'll make you drool... m

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

Commodore PET

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 18:37:39 -0800 (PST) From: Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> Subject: Re: Commodore PET >> "Collectible Microcomputers" says: $150 to $400 (chiclet keyboard), >> $25 to $150 (typewriter keyboard) >> >> But I don't find that their idea of prices translates at all to the >> real world. Maybe about 10 years ago when noone cared about vintage >> computers, but not now. >FWIW, my Chiclet PET cost me a cool $900. -------- Feh! My 8032/8050 cost me $5000! And the Chiclet PET >$1000 IIRC. Of course, that was a while ago, when no one cared about vintage computers 'cause there weren't any to speak of, and in CDN$ when they were worthless ;-) Gonna run downstairs right now to replace the upgrade keyboard with the original keyboard & tape drive; oughta double my net worth... ;-) mike

18 years, 9 months

9
13
0 0

Fairchild 9401

by aek＠bitsavers.org

It's in the 1976 macrologic book http://bitsavers.org/pdf/fairchild/_dataBooks/1976_Fairchild_Macrologic.pdf

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

Tek 405x tape drives

by aek＠bitsavers.org

> I have a drive and controller that Don Maslin gave me supposedly from > a Tek terminal of some sort. It's a Wangtek drive and a like-sized > controller board with an 8085 on it. Interfaces on both ends are 50 > conductor--if the computer side was something like SASI, it wouldn't > surprise me--I've never had to use it. The pinch roller in the drive > is in pretty bad shape now, though that could be dealt with without > too much trouble, I imagine. I wonder if the drive-side interface > isn't QIC-36, which would mean that there are PC-based controllers > available for it. -- The tape drive in a 405x predates QIC. The head is fixed in place and uses one track for clock and one for data. It is more similar to digital cassettes than the later QIC drives.

18 years, 9 months

5
5
0 0

Commodore PET

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:37:52 -0500 From: "Golan Klinger" <gklinger at gmail.com> Subject: Re: Commodore PET >The last PET 2001 with the chiclet keyboard I bought cost me $35. >Clearly, there are bargains to be had. $150 is a fair price though. Shhhh! I wanna find another Cameron that'll give me $900! (CDN$, none of that US green paper...) mike

18 years, 9 months

8
11
0 0

Fairchild 9401 ttl ic pinout wanted.

by jos.mar＠bluewin.ch

Anyone has the above ? It is a 14 pin TTL IC, according to google some sort of CRC generator. It is part of the mididisk controller of the ETH Lilith, which I am reverse engineering. Jos

18 years, 9 months

5
5
0 0

CDC Terminal (was Commodore PET)

by dm561＠torfree.net

-----------Original Message: Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:47:34 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> Subject: Re: CDC Terminal (was Commodore PET) On 9 Nov 2007 at 14:17, M H Stein wrote: > Control Data Corporation > QSE 1253 Display Controller > QSE 1255 Display Equipment Maybe Billy Petit recognizes this. Before I saw the above, I was about to declare it an Intercom terminal controller (Intercom stations were used for remote job entry). But QSE is CDC parlance for "Quote for Special Equipment" (as opposed to QSS "Quote for Special Software"). Which means that it was a custom-order job, perhaps for a defense customer. Cheers, Chuck ---------Reply: Makes sense. Assuming I'm looking at the right PCB rack it's pretty modular; the cards all look pretty well the same and it also had a quite large and some smaller diode matrix boards, so I guess with the right cards, backplane wiring and diode placement you could make it do pretty well anything. Defence? In Canada? We're your peace-lovin' neighbour who welcomes our enemies with open arms (and without the kind of arms you carry down there)... m

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

Commodore PET

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 20:53:54 +0000 From: Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: Commodore PET <snip> > In my not-so-humble opinion, the PET's metal case and automobile-style 'hood' > ('bonnet' to you), hefty linear power supply, crisp built-in monitor, IEEE port, and its > generous supply of other I/O ports, not to mention Commodore's good official > support, made it stand out among the Apples and R-S model 1s of the day. I think it's not that they're particularly bad, just that I'm failing to see why they've got quite the following that they have (unless this is just another one of those UK/US differences - there were lots of expandable, well-built, well-documented systems around in the UK back in the day, but perhaps that wasn't so true of the US?) On a personal note, the styling never appealed somehow - a dinky monitor physically bolted to a large, squat, angular case with a large footprint just didn't seem too practical. But then I've never been a big fan of all-in-one systems anyway, I suppose - I'd much rather have separate keyboard / display / CPU / drives, and with units that took up vertical space in favour of horizontal. ---------------- MHS: Well, that 'splains everything; I'm a horizontal kind of guy and bemoan the trend for PCs to go from AT style to towers; they're coming back to horizontal but now they're too small to put any drives into. Then again, once you put your TV set or monitor on top of your Apple it didn't look much different; just a fuzzier display and some extra cables. But a PET sure wasn't as easy to carry over to a friend's house to play with, I'll grant you that. To each his/her own as far as styling goes, but it did look more like a 'computer' (i.e. terminal), at least after that very first graphic kbd/tape drive version. The BM in CBM did stand for Business Machines after all... ======== > And, as an aside, it was many years before the mainstream reached the 500MB > *per side* of the 8050 and 8250 disk drives (which could use pretty well any > diskette you had on hand, soft sector, 10 or 16S hard sector, whatever). Granted that does seem pretty good (I assume you mean 500KB ;) - I think Acorn would have been doing 400KB around that time but a lot of the competition (at least in the UK) were aiming at something like half that. ----------------- Oops; a small glitch in the 1/2 MB to 500K conversion... ======== I'm not really serious about them being nasty machines (hence the smiley in the original message) - they just don't really 'do' anything for me. But then we all have out *cough* 'pet' systems... ;) (Anyone know the price on a 8250 drive back in the day? I bet they didn't come cheap!) cheers Jules ----------------- Well, yes, there is that; $2000+... But they were meant for someone who could write them off their taxes... m

18 years, 9 months

1
0
0 0

PET IEEE problem (was Commodore PET)

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:45:36 +1300 From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at usap.gov> Subject: Re: Commodore PET <snip> >I got a lot of miles out of that PET. I still have it and it still >fires up (but I think I have an IEEE problem that may turn out to be >cruddy 40-pin sockets on the VLSI I/O chips). <snip> Those sockets were indeed a PITA, but another easy-to-overlook problem I ran into with my 8050 disk drive is that if you happen to catch the tip of one of the contacts in the female IEEE connector while plugging in the cable you can easily push it into the connector and out the back, causing an intermittent. m

18 years, 9 months

3
2
0 0

Commodore PET

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 09:55:34 +0000 From: Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> Subject: Re: Commodore PET >We still seem to get them offered to the museum in healthy numbers - including >the chicklet models (and once in a while one of the blue-fronted ones, which I >believe are the earliest). >I've never tried actively seeking one out though as there's been no need. >Finding one that works seems to be the difficult bit - I don't think I've ever >seen one which hasn't required some form of TLC inside. Nasty, clunky, >horrible things they are ;-) >cheers >Jules --------Reply: Well, recognizing that this was probably just flame bait, I respectfully disagree. Granted, with time there were problems with poor connectors and failing RAM & ROM chips, but that was common in systems of that day (and still is). In my not-so-humble opinion, the PET's metal case and automobile-style 'hood' ('bonnet' to you), hefty linear power supply, crisp built-in monitor, IEEE port, and its generous supply of other I/O ports, not to mention Commodore's good official support, made it stand out among the Apples and R-S model 1s of the day. Mine _is_ originally one of the blue-front models and it still works fine to this day; the only problems I've had with it is one of the ROMs developing a stuck bit and the occasional dirty connector, and the keyboard contacts need to be cleaned once in a while (and a little rust from Racoons peeing on it while it sat for many years in the garage with a hole in the roof). And, as an aside, it was many years before the mainstream reached the 500MB *per side* of the 8050 and 8250 disk drives (which could use pretty well any diskette you had on hand, soft sector, 10 or 16S hard sector, whatever). Archiving some 25+ year old diskettes recently I had one read error in 20 diskettes (and I could use the computer for playing a fast game or two while formatting or copying diskettes)... m

18 years, 9 months

4
5
0 0

Fairchild 9401 ttl ic pinout wanted.

by jdbryan＠acm.org

On 9 Nov 2007 at 13:44, I wrote: > Perhaps: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/fairchild/_dataSheets/F94xx_dataSheets.pdf > > ...has what you need? Alas, it does not. Several interesting 94xx parts, but the 9401 is not one of them. -- Dave

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

*ON*-topic car question

by gordonjcp＠gjcp.net

At least one version of the Aston Martin Lagonda used CRTs driven by some sort of microcomputer for the dashboard displays. Anyone know anything more about it? Short of scouring eBay and buying such a car (and incurring the wrath of SWMBO) I can't find out much about it. I bet someone here knows though. Gordon

18 years, 9 months

2
1
0 0

CDC Terminal (was Commodore PET)

by dm561＠torfree.net

---------- From: Richard[SMTP:legalize at xmission.com] Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 12:33 PM To: M H Stein Subject: Re: Commodore PET [off-list reply] [on-list re-reply for general interest] In article <01C822C6.8F421200 at MSE_D03>, M H Stein <dm561 at torfree.net> writes: > Just one of many things I dumpstered before I saw the light; the North > Star and CDC terminal I tossed because I only wanted the desks, the What "CDC terminal"? ---------------- Reply: Well, "terminal" might not have been accurate; it might have been a console or even something else altogether But it so happens I still have the 'desk' and some of its innards; the model numbers are: Control Data Corporation QSE 1253 Display Controller QSE 1255 Display Equipment Maybe someone on the list knows more. I may be confusing it with an MDS Data entry station which I scrapped for the same reason (I needed a lot of small desks to put computers and terminals on), but I believe it was the CDC unit that had the 3-row rack of cards, mostly populated with house-numbered 10-pin TO-5 ICs and an acoustic delay line for memory, and it was the MDS unit that had the larger boards and the small core memory plane that are all still lying around somewhere in the Chaos Basement. mike

18 years, 9 months

3
2
0 0

2026

2025

2024

2023

2022

2021

2020

2019

2018

2017

2016

2015

2014

2013

2012

2011

2010

2009

2008

2007

2006

2005

2004

2003

2002

2001

2000

1999

1998

1997

test-drb