test-drb March 2007

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

239 participants
488 discussions

Embedded devices vs "real" computers (was Re: Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal!)

by ethan.dicks＠gmail.com

On 3/14/07, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: > Personally, I find little widgets with embedded processors > fascinating. <AOL> Me, too. </AOL> > Consider a credit-card terminal--it has a modem, > display, keyboard, can interface to a printer and most have some non- > volatile memory. The difference between many word processors and > general-purpose computers is one of nomenclature more than anything. > Yet no one's really interested in them. An old Artec, CPT or AES WP > box has the same basic components and vintage as most early > microcomputer systems, but no one's interested in collecting them. For me, at least, the difference is that a word processor or credit card terminal or a gas pump, or whatever, does what it does and is difficult to have it do something it was not designed to do. If it were possible to get developer-level documentation on the internals of said embedded devices, that might be something different entirely. The one class of devices like this that _is_ thoroughly explored is Internet/e-mail appliances like the Audrey, the WebPal, the iOpener, etc. Many of these, of course, are just Intel PCs with a UNIXy OS in FLASH ROM, but at least they are inexpensive enough and powerful enough to attract attention from the contemporary hardware hacker community. Older devices, while interesting in their own right, aren't as easy to come by, or, prior to the advertiser/subscription business model, were paid for by the end user, not heavily subsidized. ISTR IOpeners were costing the company $400 each, but were marketed at $99 (later $99 plus a mandatory 4 month sub.) For a 200MHz PC w/USB, 16MB Flash, 800x600 LCD, single-DC-voltage power (19VDC), $99 was a *scorching* price, so lots of hackers picked them up and figured out how to dump the OS and replace it with Linux or Windows (yes... people _did_ put Windows98 on them). For your money, you get a nice little toy that's easy to reverse engineer, and when you do, the machine becomes quite useful for a variety of applications. A used credit card terminal for $20 (or whatever the going rate is) can still be turned into something else, but it's not going to capture the attention of an army of curious hackers. I guess the other thing is... for as much work as it would be to delve the secrets of a credit card terminal, I can whip together an LCD display and a microcontroller for a few bucks and have 100% control over its innards. If I don't care to start from scratch, I can begin with any number of Atmel/LCD projects already out there (and I've done just that recently). At that point, the advantage of an existing CC terminal diminishes rapidly. It still has the benefit of being mass produced and potentially abundant, but anyone can order an ATtiny2313 for a couple of bucks and hang a 2x20 text LCD or a 128x64 graphic LCD off it and make it display some sensor input or whatever. The CC terminal has to have some pretty cool stuff in there to pull into the lead for a hardware project - I'd most likely gut the LCD and possibly keep the plastic case for some other project than hack the microcontroller that's already in there, and that's presuming it's not a mask-programmed part and that I can reflash the chip. So while I might not turn down a box of embedded devices like a credit card terminal, hacking a lone terminal isn't as appealing as building a similar device from scratch and knowing exactly how that new device works. As I said, though, having developers' docs might tip the balance, but the chances of that are rather low. -ethan

18 years, 1 month

Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal!

by blstuart＠bellsouth.net

> Form factor? Looks just like another "box with a monitor and > keyboard to me". The Sony SMC-70 of the same time was a lot smaller. > Could you be thinking of the PX-8? I may well be suffering bit rot. I thought that was the one that had a similar form factor to those Sharps that Radio Shack rebadged as the PC-1 and PC-2. (Of course those designations may also be the result of neurons going the way of dynamic RAM not refreshed fast enough.) At least in that space the Tandy Model 100 is a fairly interesting example. There weren't many like it and it clearly was a step toward the laptop. And one of its biggest applications was as a WP for reporters to prepare their stories in the field. The dedicated WPs that I was getting at were things like the Brothers that you could buy at Walmart 15 or 20 years ago. I'll agree that office systems in general from before say 1980 are in the realm of interesting. It's the high volume appliances that briefly supplanted typewriters that come to mind when I think of dedicated WPs, and I don't see much in them that's interesting. BLS

18 years, 1 month

classiccmp.org operational costs?

by julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk

Jay, Out of curiosity (and to the list in case others are interested), do you have an estimate for the yearly cost of providing classiccmp.org and all the services it provides? I gather you've got the ISP already, so presumably the infrastructure doesn't come into it - and likely the same with things like backup hardware (but not media) etc. as they'll already be in place for other non-classiccmp services. I think what I'm asking is, how much of "your" money do you put into it per year in order to provide the mailing list, hosting for those of us who have data on the classiccmp server(s) etc.? [is there just "a" classiccmp.org server, or is it all spread across several machines?] cheers Jules

18 years, 1 month

Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal!

by blstuart＠bellsouth.net

> That's mostly a matter of will. There were several interesting > applications (such as VEDIT) ported to the Displaywriter. That is a good point. The only argument that I'd have with it is that since so much of the software we'd find interesting was ported from general-purpose platforms, the particular machines aren't really a part of it. > As far as > architecture, an old AES 800 WP is about as exciting as architecture > of the time gets--a custom ECL CPU supported by several 8080's doing > the peripheral I/O. I'd love to own one of those. I would too. That's a good example of the exceptions. I guess I was thinking more of the later generation devices. So many of them were just Z80s or 80186s with pretty conventional video and disk controllers. Not really any different from many general-purpose designs of the era, but much less hackable. But as you point out, there are certainly gems to be found in every corner of the computing world. > And let's not forget that "computers" like the QX-10 weren't all that > far from being word processors, what with integrated Valdocs and > whatnot. But is it really the WP aspect that makes it interesting or the form factor as an evolutionary step to PDAs? I'd even suggest that there may have been something of an unholy marriage between those little things and the suitcase luggables that built the image of a laptop in some minds. BLS

18 years, 1 month

Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal!

by blstuart＠bellsouth.net

There are several element of the phenomenon that reduces the collectability of embedded devices and things like word processors. For context, here are the characteristics that, for me, make a machine interesting: interesting hardware design, interesting software design, ability to do something cool/geeky with it, and the influence it had on other designs. So with that in mind here's why I think we see the phenomena that Chuck describes. > Personally, I find little widgets with embedded processors > fascinating. I suspect a lot of the problem is that they often aren't really so little. Many embedded devices are pretty much just a board unless they're connected to some other hardware, which is often so large that it inhibits collectability. Of course, no one here would turn down an AGC regardless of whether it was connected to a spacecraft. But most embedded systems only go so far without the other hardware. > The difference between many word processors and > general-purpose computers is one of nomenclature more than anything. Personally, I think this is exactly why they aren't very interesting. Because they are so much like a general-purpose system, they don't have a particularly interesting hardware design, almost by definition. Their software is usually not particularly interesting either. But you are captive in that software. You can't really do anything interesting with them, except type letters. And for the most part, they didn't have much influence on the rest of computing. So, there's not much to draw me, or I suspect a lot of others, to them. As in all matters of opinion, YMMV. I certainly don't condemn anyone who does find those interesting and wants to collect them. For that matter, I do have a few embedded devices in my collection. But a lot of them are actually ones that I worked on in former lives. That's really why they're interesting to me. BLS

18 years, 1 month

New version of LisaEm up for downloads

by ray＠arachelian.com

http://lisaem.sunder.net/downloads.html This includes OS X PPC, win32, Linux binaries, PDF documentation, as well as source code. I didn't get a chance to build the OS X Intel version, I'll do that tonight and post it up tomorrow. (Or you can just compile it yourself.) A ROM dumper will be available in about a week. (Thanks James!) Enjoy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ LisaEm Known current Bugs for 2007.03.14 version ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ * Native printing is still broken * Serial port option TelnetD crashes/locks up * Skins on/off option sometimes needs to be forced. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lisa Emulator Change History http://lisaem.sunder.net/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 2007.03.13 - found a fixed config bug: serial b options copied from port a. - added a switch to turn off power to the virtual Profile before power on. This allows you to prevent the boot ROM's Power on self test to automatically boot from the Profile. It's useful when you need to repair the Profile since it allows you to boot from "Lisa Office System 1/5" and then power on the Profile drive to repair the file system. 2007.03.11 - Proper BMP's are now generated for printing, conversion to PNG format works, but is a little bit off - background is gray, should be white as in paper white. - added command line ability to load preferences file when launching. i.e. ./lisaem ~ray/macworks.lisaem will open the macworks.lisaem preferences file from user ray's home. 2007.03.10 - getting closer on proper BMP generation for printing - added throttle setting to global preferences. - added ROM checksum failure warning on power on. If the ROM is broken, it can crash the emulator. 2007.03.09 - skins on/off added to Display menu. - found IW linefeed pixel bug (lack of initialization) 2007.03.08 - video modes are a bit smarter - if display size is too small, will refuse to change video modes and will instead switch to lower mode, or shut off skins. - re-enaled 2Y and 2X3Y video modes (skinless of course.) with checks for display size. - skin/less mode switch no longer requires restart of emulator. Extra space past display region is blackened to ameliorate window sizing bugs. - Preferences "Apply" button (was save in preview versions) closes Preferences window. 2007.03.06 - added skinless option (bug: size of window is too small/off). One blit less during skinless mode so it's a bit faster on older machines. - NMI key can be forced now. 2007.03.02 - Video mode, sound effects, asciikeyboard as globally saved prefs. - added Sound Effects checkbox. - debugging printing - somehow all pages show up black. 2007.03.01 - added NMI key to keyboard menu. 2007.02.28 - new IW code printouts sort of works. 2007.02.21 - Added Preferences panel for printer settings. 2007.02.20 - added size dialog box when creating profile (5/10MB, etc) 2007.02.18 - unified build.sh 2007.02.05 - I/O ROM version was getting clobbered by code in floppy.c to 0xA8 via a #define. 2007.02.03 - cheat_ram_test now a preference. - if starting without ROM, dialogbox is shown, then preferences are shown asking for config. - bug fix: after closing preferences, re-opening caused segfault. - finer speed control - much closer. 2007.02.02 - fixed floppy insert on power off - fixed floppy trapping on insert of non-DC42/bad disk image. - fixed "Clock is not set" dialog box - fixed ContrastTrails (linx/win32) 2007.02.01 - fixed raw kb entry - but CPU clock is still too fast. 2007.01.31 - fixed bug causing random crashes, mostly during LOS install. Was off-by-one array overflow related to ReDraw_* fn's.

18 years, 1 month

SWTPC craze

by dm561＠torfree.net

Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 07:40:29 -0600 From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com> Subject: Re: SWTPC craze In article <45F76433.87F015DD at cs.ubc.ca>, Brent Hilpert <hilpert at cs.ubc.ca> writes: <snip> ... >> I know you're interested in anything terminal, Richard, but I have to say >>from a strictly functional perspective you're not missing anything. >Yeah, I know, but people are clearly not bidding on this for the >functionality. Its the brand. >This can be a double eded sword. For instance, my Beehive terminal is >branded Cromemco and that's the *only* thing that kept it out of the >hands of the scrappers. Cromemco is a brand near and dear to people's >memories and Beehive is a "WTF is that?" brand (or worse, "what a >POS!" brand) to most people. ---------------- Good tip; I'm busy printing Cromemco stickers to put on my Falcos... ;-) mike

18 years, 1 month

Value of a PDP/8?

by andy＠smokebelch.org

OK, so this is a pretty dumb question, but what is the 'value' of a typical PDP/8? Now I appreciate that configuration can vary wildly and beyond that it is a matter of one what can be located for or what your prepared to pay, luck and circumstance etc. In terms of basic model I was thinking either a Straight-8 or PDP8/E. Now I know only a few years ago a reseller had a number of the latter in stock, tested, for about 400 UK pounds each. Albeit likely with no peripherals, just the card cage and some sort of base config. I've always wanted to own an 8 and have recently been considering the idea of trading some less easy to run equipment. Cheers, Andrew ---------------- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org

18 years, 1 month

Fwd: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal!

by hexstar＠gmail.com

Not sure if this is the right kind of terminal :P but I thought you guys might find this offer interesting... :-) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: WebProNews <webpronews at ientrynetwork.net> Date: Mar 9, 2007 9:15 AM Subject: Featured Offer of the Month: Free FD100 Terminal! To: hexstar at gmail.com [image: counter][image: counter] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This is a WebProNews Sponsor Update Please see the bottom of this mailing for subscription information. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Find out how you can get the FD100 Processing Terminal for FREE* - Click here for more information<http://aj.600z.com/aj/23363/0/cc?z=1&b=22970&c=23361> <http://aj.600z.com/aj/23363/0/cc?z=1&b=22970&c=23361> <http://aj.600z.com/aj/23363/0/cc?z=1&b=22970&c=23361> The First Data FD100 terminal accepts PIN-secured and signature debit cards, credit cards (including *American Express*(r),* Discover*(r), and *Diners Club*(r)), contactless reader payments, gift cards, and much, much more. *Click here for more information <http://aj.600z.com/aj/23363/0/cc?z=1&b=22970&c=23361>or call 1.800.426.6413.* *Benefits of the First Data FD100 Terminal Include:* ? Accepts all major bank and credit cards; debit cards; gift and loyalty cards; and checks using TeleCheck ECA or paperless solutions. ? Secure Internet Protocol (IP) capability with dial-up as connectivity backup. ? Quiet, fast printer for speed at checkout lines ? High speed capability for quick transactions ? Intuitive touch screen with 128 x 64 graphic LCD display ? Terminal and printer combination to keep infrastructure costs low ? 64 MB RAM standard memory allowing an average 1000 transactions before batching out terminal ? Access to on-line reporting 24 x 7 right from your PC <http://aj.600z.com/aj/23363/0/cc?z=1&b=22970&c=23361> Unsubscribe<http://attrack.ientrynetwork.net/CLK=1024083-13578967-297713191-21-22>from iEntry Mailings on behalf of FirstData. To unsubscribe from WebProNews regular editions or any other iEntry mailings send an email request to: support at ientry.com -- WebProNews <http://www.WebProNews.com> is an iEntry, Inc.<http://www.ientry.com>publication -- iEntry, Inc. 2549 Richmond Road, Lexington, KY 40509 (c) 2007 All Rights Reserved Privacy Policy<http://www.iEntry.com/page/corp/privacy.html> Legal <http://www.iEntry.com/page/corp/legal.html>

18 years, 1 month

Fw: TRS80 model 4 available

by tim＠tim-mann.org

I'm just passing this on -- reply to Mr. Rhoades directly if you're interested. ------- Forwarded Message Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2007 06:32:45 -0800 From: "William Rhoades" <wwrseb at hotmail.com> Subject: TRS80 model 4 available I am settling my brother's estate. In his old office is a complete TRS Model 4, floppy drives, software, etc. Hasn't been used in years. This should be of interest to hobbiests. His widow and I want to get all this stuff in the hands of some club or individual with bona fides. I haven't got time or interest in ebaying it. Location of equipment is Asheville, NC. If you have any suggestions, I will get in email contact during the next 10 days that I am in Asheville. Thanks. Bill Rhoades ------- End of Forwarded Message -- Tim Mann tim at tim-mann.org http://tim-mann.org/

18 years, 1 month

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test-drb March 2007