>
>Subject: Re: Tarbell is making me insane
> From: Grant Stockly <grant at stockly.com>
> Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 11:02:00 -0900
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>At 10:11 AM 11/8/2007, you wrote:
>>On Wednesday 07 November 2007 10:53, Allison wrote:
>> > Also sounds like oneshot problems. Check cpu timing. Even small timing
>> > errors tend to magnify bus noise issues and incompability problems.
>>(Snip)
>> > Also HEAT. That thing despite a very heafty noisy fan and cover mods
>> > didn't like heat. FYI: the timing of the oneshots drifts with heating!
>>
>>This probably explains a lot why I encounter 9602 (and the LS variant) fairly
>>often in stuff that's otherwise full of the standard 74xx (or LS) parts.
>>
>>I remember back in 1978 trying (unsuccessfully) to make an interface
>>board for
>>a dual cassette deck that we had on trial to work with the H11 system I'd
>>built for this company. The fella on the phone warned me to stay away from
>>the '123 parts for just this sort of reason...
>
>Its not the one shots... I installed a Cromenco ZPU card and it also crashes.
Some Z80 cards complicate the issue. They have diffent timing and at 4mhz
some ram MAY NOT be fast enough. Either slow the z80 to 2mhz or more wait
states from ram.
FYI: the Seals 8k [most 2102 basd cards] cards are marginal for Z80
above about 2.5mhz.
>I really wanted to get this setup working. In my experience, the
>Altair disk subsystem with a half dozen one shots is more reliable
>and predictable to the Tarbell (hehehe). And taht experience was
>with a CPU card that had one shots so out of spec according to the
>intel data sheets the 8080 should not run.
>
>Now I have a CPU card that has been tweaked to have perfect CPU clock
>timing. Nothing. : (
Also make sure the crystal osc is really running at 2mhz. Mine would
sometimes take off at 4 or 6mhz until I dumped it for 8224.
Shows how rough the bus timing and noise can be. Is that a one piece
backplane of the two sided variety or the one of the earlier Altair
4 slot chains or single sided backplane? The reason is the earlier
two styles were noisy at best and terminators didn't work well on them.
Replaced the backplne with WAMCO unit and the problem improved and
terminations worked. The front pannel still induced a lot of ringing
on the bus.
>My next guess is going to be switching the disk drive to run off of
>power from the Altair. The disk drive is getting about 5.25v from
>the AT computer power supply and the S-100 boards are regulating
>their 5v to 4.95v. I really don't think that could be a problem, but
Thats not it. Do make sure the drive and it's DC have a good common
ground.
>I'm willing to investigate anything right now. I am going to give
>the manual a close look and make sure there aren't Altair specific
>wiring instructions that were missed. I just can't figure out why it
>is going crazy! I might have to get out the oscilloscope.
You might. One thing to check. Is the raw BUS voltages at least 8V
and 16V?? I when through two sets of PS mods to get enough power
for a 48K of 8K 2102 rams, a VDM1, Altair PIO, Altair SIO plus
eventually a NS* MDS.
>I installed all of the boards in a "vintage" Altair with less luck.
Thats why mine is retired. I'd feel different if it were an 8800B.
>Grrr... This is the 3rd Tarbell card I've used trying to get
>something good. The cards are modified by someone, work PERFECT in
>his IMSAI with one of my reproduction 8080 CPU cards, and mailed to
>me. He found that he needed a terminator to make it work, so I
>installed a terminator that he sent me. The terminator only made
>things worse.
It could be the front pannel doing something to you.
Now your getting a feel for what life was like for an Altair owning
early adoptor. I still really feel that the hardware issues I fought
with delayed my developing software efforts. It was when I went to the
NS* and Netronics Explorer 8085 that I stopped chasing hardware and
started working with higher level languages and system performance.
Allison
>Grant
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 09:32:20 -0800
From: Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>
Subject: Re: LIST ADMIN Re: Laserdiscs (was: Video Clips)
To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org
Message-ID: <47373CA4.2070905 at bitsavers.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> > For me "classic" computers
> > are the ones created between 1977 & 1990ish & yes, this includes the early
> > IBM PC's.Until the PET thread started I was getting seriously bored with the
> > list, now it's interesting again.
>Try http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/search.php?do=getdaily
>which may be more appropriate to your interests.
>You won't have to worry about people talking about anything other than consumer
>computers there.
----------------
A different population from this list to be sure, broadly speaking, but nevertheless
CP/M, DEC, Cromemco, IMSAI etc. are discussed there as well as WIN3.1, and since
it's a forum format you can pick & choose your interest.
And I agree with the OP that, certainly from a broad historical perspective of computers,
old IBM PCs, PETs etc. are just as important and 'classic' in their respective segments
as Altairs, IMSAIs and even DECs, regardless of one's personal bias.
m
Anyone on the list have IBM 1401, A User's Manual music CD? I ordered it
last week but it has not come yet. If you have it what do think about it?
John
That recent discussion on the CRC chip got me to thinking about something that
I hadn't thought of for some years now...
My Bigboard II has a bit of interesting code in the EPROM, that does a sort
of sanity check on itself. Some sort of a CRC algorithm (I'd have to dig out
the code for exact details, and have NO idea of where I'd find it at this
point).
This thing had six sockets altogether, only 24-pin, so I couldn't put any
bigger than a 2732 in them, and one of the nifty features in the code in
that one that came with it was that it'd check the _second_ socket the same
way. That way, if you had an appropriately-coded chip in there it'd just
hand off to it. Seems handy to me as a way to just get the darn thing to
boot a disk without you having to tell it to do so.
Unfortunately, I have *no* idea how one would make an eprom have the
appropriate CRC results. I suspect that one of the important details would
be the exact polynomial used to generate the CRC in the first place, and I
don't have that handy at the moment, have to figure out just where the heck
that is...
But any suggestions as to where I might research this further would be
appreciated.
For some reason, in spite of me having seen lots and lots of full-page ads in
Micro-Cornucopia and elsewhere during that time, I can find almost nothing
on the machine on the 'net these days. Which is a shame, as it's a nice
board, in a lot of ways...
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
All:
Now that the weather in the Northeast is cold again, I?m picking up on
some old projects, among which is the floppy system for my IMSAI.
Here?s what I want ? a 5.25? dual-disk system running CP/M 2.2 (my IMSAI
has a Z80 board in it).
Here?s what I have ? plenty of 5.25? TM100 and equivalent drives, a
CompuPro Disk 1 and an SD Sales Versafloppy (not II). The Versafloppy
specifies SA400/450, but I think other 5.25? drives will work.
Here?s what I don?t have ? a working disk image for either of the above.
Dave Dunfield has a disk image for a Disk 1A but it?s from an 8? original.
Also, the ComprPro controller seems to require modifying the IMSAI front
panel to disable it (by removing the ground on pin 20 IIRC). I really don?t
want to modify the front panel. I browsed the Versafloppy manual quickly and
it doesn?t seem to require modifications to the host machine.
Given this, does anyone have a Versafloppy image I can use?
Alternatively, I?d gladly trade what I have for a board/disk that would
work. I would even consider trading other stuff for it, including the 8?
drive system I have that is the bane of my existence.
Thanks again for any help.
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.altair32.comhttp://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp
Jules,
> We recently managed to (finally!) get our HP 2116 machines out of 'deep store'
> and into the light of day, and some initial cleaning work was done on the
> panels earlier.
It appears that many of the boards, especially in the 2116C, have just
been placed into arbitrary slots.
You will also need to double-check some of the part numbers on the boards
to be sure that the 2116B and 2116C boards have not been put into the
wrong chassis. For example, it may be that some of the boards in the
2116B are 2116C boards and vice versa.
I can send you a more complete list of which boards belong in which
slots, but that will be just part of the story, in order to get these
machines running.
Overall, it looks like you have close to a complete 2116C and 2116B,
though you are missing the I/O boards that would have been used
in a dual processor system.
James Markevitch
>> Another question- so far I have had two Sun-3 era machines (a
>> Carrera CPU in a CADDstation and a Sun 3/200 CPU) develop "all
>> lights on" catatonia. Is this a common problem with Sun-3s? I'm
>> wondering if I should take the time to trace out the 3/200 board
>> (preferably with hints on where to look), give it away, or junk it
>> (I have a working 3/110 system, so I won't be destitute of Sun-3s).
>>
> Not common at all...I have run literally hundreds of Sun-3 systems
> and have *never* seen that failure mode.
Check the EPROMS. Clearing the LEDs happens early in the boot process
so either the processor is totally hosed or the boot EPROMS have bit rot.
> For me "classic" computers
> are the ones created between 1977 & 1990ish & yes, this includes the early
> IBM PC's.Until the PET thread started I was getting seriously bored with the
> list, now it's interesting again.
Try http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/search.php?do=getdaily
which may be more appropriate to your interests.
You won't have to worry about people talking about anything other than consumer
computers there.
Couple of questions on old Sun machines (well, parts).
On a Sun 4300 CPU board, I'm getting the
"EEPROM Write-Write-Read-Read test
error PA=0xF2000000 VA=0X00FF8000 Exp=0x0000005a Obs=0x00000000
(looping)"
error. Looking on the Web and Usenet seems to show that this has
happened a couple of times, with some reference to possibly being the
NVRAM (although the most comprehensive posing set was in German :().
This seems a bit odd, though - on my other Suns it calls the NVRAM the
NVRAM, so I'm wondering if this is something else. J1900 1-2 is
connected (4MB SIMM option), so it shouldn't be that (or is there
something else needed to be done- not sure if this is a 4/330, or if
there is any board-level reason that it couldn't use 4MB SIMMS).
Another question- so far I have had two Sun-3 era machines (a Carrera
CPU in a CADDstation and a Sun 3/200 CPU) develop "all lights on"
catatonia. Is this a common problem with Sun-3s? I'm wondering if I
should take the time to trace out the 3/200 board (preferably with
hints on where to look), give it away, or junk it (I have a working
3/110 system, so I won't be destitute of Sun-3s).
I still have 30 or 40 LD-V1000s (basically NOS) so I didn't feel too bad about
tearing one of them (that didn't work the first time) apart. What I found
interesting is that they use a Z80 as the processor. Also, most of the ones I
have gave significant picture jitter when I first checked them out. Turned out
that there is a pot inside that has a connection to where the laser is on the
disk. That pot somehow got "noisy" over the past 15 - 20 years they have been
sitting and a combination of contact cleaners made the machine operate as new
again. And the service manual is available on-line at the Dragon's-Lair-Project
website. As an aside, that website also has the diagrams to make up a centronics
plug to be able to start the laserdisk playing. *REALLY* nice for checking out a
unit! A friend of mine also has all of the alignment jigs in case I wanted to go
that far into repairing these things.
> From: Jeff Jonas <jeffj at panix.com>
>
> I pulled apart an old InfoTrac library system that used a
> Pioneer LD-V1000 since CD-ROM drives were not yet available.
> Top loader, CAV disks only. Real He-Ne laser on the sled.
> The Centronix connector was a proprietory parallel port
> controlling video playback, getting frame #
> and it allowed reading digital data if it was recorded in that format
> (video playback was still NTSC, no digital at all, not even a frame buffer).
I've got a Magnetic Peripherals 94211-91 SCSI drive here where the magnets for
the head stack seem to have been coated - at least around the edges - with
some form of paint. The paint's now begun to flake off, jamming up the head
assembly and preventing the drive from seeking properly (sometimes it wouldn't
spin up at all, other times it'd spin up, flop the heads around as much as it
could, and then power down again)
Anyone seen this particular mode of failure before? It's a new one on me...
With nothing to lose (after ruling out other possibilities, and I'd already
popped the lid on the drive expecting to see the aftermath of a head crash) I
removed the top magnet from the head assembly (without disturbing the heads
themselves or their pivot point) and cleaned everything out as best I could.
I was doing it more for giggles than anything - but I was amazed when, after
replacing the magnet, the drive actually powered up, stayed powered up, and
was detected by the OS.
It's not in particularly good health - I'm about 14MB into the archive process
and I've got about 500KB of dead blocks so far. Doubtful I'll be able to get
any meaningful data out of whatever filesystems were on it with that level of
corruption, but I suppose it'd be silly not to at least try!
cheers
Jules
Hi all,
I am about to throw out a complete VXT2000+
Shipping overseas is probably not worth it
(I am in The Neterlands), but if somebody
needs a specific part, I am willing to disassemble
the VXT before it becomes landfill. The VXT is
in good shape AFAIK, but can not test it ...
Henk, PA8PDP
We recently managed to (finally!) get our HP 2116 machines out of 'deep store'
and into the light of day, and some initial cleaning work was done on the
panels earlier.
I did a quick inventory:
2116B
2116C
2160A (PSU)
2161A (PSU)
2748A (tape reader)
HP1016C (two - 512 track drum)
One of our guys managed to flip the front door catches (the keys for the
machines are long-gone), so I was able to take a board listing too:
2116B:
slot board
1 pwr fail / AR
10 sense amplifier
11 sense amplifier
12 sense amplifier
13 sense amplifier
14 driver switch
15 driver switch
16 inhibit driver
18 inhibit driver
20 DML
22 sense amplifier
101 A101
102 A102-105
103 A102-105
104 A102-105
106 A106
107 A107
108 A108
110 EAU logic
111 EAU timing
116 DMA word count
117 DMA word count
118 DMA address enc.
119 DMA control
120 DMA packer
201 A201
202 central interr.
211 I/O multiplexor
214 tape reader
216 I/O multiplexor
218 buss loader
2116C:
slot board
101 A101
102 A102-105
103 A102-105
104 A102-105
105 A102-105
106 A106
107 A107
201 A201
205 A108
206 MDB / A13
207 power fail
208 power fail
209 power fail
210 power fail
211 power fail
212 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18
213 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18
214 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18
215 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18
216 MMD / A2
217 sense amplifier
218 MMD / A2
219 driver switch / A8,9,14,15
220 MDB / A13
things found kicking around in the 2116C case:
Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A6 (made by Ferroxcube
corporation)
Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A6 (made by Ampex)
Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A4, A6, A7 (international
scientific)
'short' board, HP assy. 02116-8015
'short' board, HP assy. 02160-60031
power fail board (identical to the ones in card slots)
unknown full-size board, HP 1150-1198.
Most of the boards sitting in the card slots are just loose, i.e. not plugged
into the backplane, so there's no guarantee they're in the right place (the
bottom row of the 2116C machine looks particularly disorganised).
Anyone familiar with the systems know if this is anything like two machines'
worth though? Or is it some sort of dual-cabinet system, and one crate was
likely just I/O with the other for CPU? Nice to finally see inside them
anyway, as for all we knew they could have been completely stripped out inside...
I *assume* the pair of drums go with them, but there's no guarantee there (I'm
just not sure what they *do* belong with if it isn't these machines :-)
cheers
Jules
Jay
Did you ever come up with a fix for the DC300 tension loop that breaks?
I have two Tektronix 4051 computers that works great. I just wish I could save some of the tapes.
Thanks for any help you might be able to extend,
Bruce
I have several Xyplex terminal servers -
One MaxServer 4500 with 5x16 port cards and one enet module
One MaxServer 5000 with 12x8 port cards, 2x LAN interface (ethernet)
and 1x NetManagement module (including the floppies)
one Xyplex 1500 1U 16-port terminal server
2x Network 9000 PS/130 power supply modules
Any interest? Renton, WA area.
We recently managed to (finally!) get our HP 2116 machines out of 'deep store'
and into the light of day, and some initial cleaning work was done on the
panels earlier.
I did a quick inventory:
2116B
2116C
2160A (PSU)
2161A (PSU)
2748A (tape reader)
HP1016C (two - 512 track drum)
One of our guys managed to flip the front door catches (the keys for the
machines are long-gone), so I was able to take a board listing too:
2116B:
slot board
1 pwr fail / AR
10 sense amplifier
11 sense amplifier
12 sense amplifier
13 sense amplifier
14 driver switch
15 driver switch
16 inhibit driver
18 inhibit driver
20 DML
22 sense amplifier
101 A101
102 A102-105
103 A102-105
104 A102-105
106 A106
107 A107
108 A108
110 EAU logic
111 EAU timing
116 DMA word count
117 DMA word count
118 DMA address enc.
119 DMA control
120 DMA packer
201 A201
202 central interr.
211 I/O multiplexor
214 tape reader
216 I/O multiplexor
218 buss loader
2116C:
slot board
101 A101
102 A102-105
103 A102-105
104 A102-105
105 A102-105
106 A106
107 A107
201 A201
205 A108
206 MDB / A13
207 power fail
208 power fail
209 power fail
210 power fail
211 power fail
212 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18
213 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18
214 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18
215 inhibit driver / A4,6,16,18
216 MMD / A2
217 sense amplifier
218 MMD / A2
219 driver switch / A8,9,14,15
220 MDB / A13
things found kicking around in the 2116C case:
Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A6 (made by Ferroxcube
corporation)
Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A6 (made by Ampex)
Core stack with connectors labeled A1, A2, A3, A4, A6, A7 (international
scientific)
'short' board, HP assy. 02116-8015
'short' board, HP assy. 02160-60031
power fail board (identical to the ones in card slots)
unknown full-size board, HP 1150-1198.
Most of the boards sitting in the card slots are just loose, i.e. not plugged
into the backplane, so there's no guarantee they're in the right place (the
bottom row of the 2116C machine looks particularly disorganised).
Anyone familiar with the systems know if this is anything like two machines'
worth though? Or is it some sort of dual-cabinet system, and one crate was
likely just I/O with the other for CPU? Nice to finally see inside them
anyway, as for all we knew they could have been completely stripped out inside..
>
>Subject: Indicator tubes for transistor logic machines.
> From: "Bob Shannon" <bshannon at tiac.net>
> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 14:03:43 -0400
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>Is anyone familiar with vacuum tube indicators used on transistor logic
>machines?
>
>I recently found a small rack filled with small transistor logic modules.
>Each module holds a flip flop or two at most.
>The modules are small PC boards with a metal frame and handle. Test points
>give you the state of each transistor
>on the module.
>
>Several modules have some sort of visual indicator tube as well.
>
>These tubes are not much larger than a standard NE-2 bulb, but they more
>resemble subminiature vacuum tubes.
>
>The tubes are marked 01037 J3, each had four leads. Two of these leads
>shows a resistance of 9.8 Ohms, and
>appears to be a low voltage filament. One is grounded, the other is
>connected to a bus in the rack of logic.
>
>There is no 'getter flash' inside the glass tube, so they may be some sort
>of glow discharge tube.
>
>Looking at the insides of each tube thee appears to be a very fine V style
>filament and a grid-like structure, but
>I see no clear anode or plate structures. There are two thin 'wires'
>outside of the grid, one in front and one
>behind the central grid-like / filament structure.
>
>The logic itself is made from 2N414 transistors, mil-spec at one time,
>covered in conformal coating. Markings
>show this device came from the USAF Airborne Instrumentation Labs. I only
>have a small part of some
>larger system, but I would like to power this rack of logic up and see these
>indicators in action.
>
>There is something very familiar about these things. They remind me of
>something I may have seen once
>in a telephone switching application when I was in the USAF long ago.
>
>Any idea what these things may be? I'll try to get a digital photo, but the
>tubes are mounted under small
>metal clips with short leads.
>
They are vacuum florescent indicators. the anode (part that will glow)
is +V applied around 16-40V range and the cathode (most minus voltage)
is formed by the two wires that are a filliment (heater to some). Some
flavors of these also have a grid between the heater and the anode and
act like a triode vacuum tube in that if the grid is sufficiently
negative compared to the cathode/heater the tube will not glow if it
is zero or positive (a few volts) the tube will glow. The transistors
are then not required to handle much voltage or current as 2n414 was
a low power alloy junction germainium (Vce of -20V and Pd of 150mW) so
it could not switch much current or voltage. Any display used had to
be operatble with less than 20V (more like 15or less) and only a few
milliamps.
I've also seen several such racks and displays down in RI. Basically
the system is built of standard logic elements available in the late
50s early 60s and an element could be a gate or Flip flop and likely
not many gates and only one FF to a card. Voltages were typically low
in the less than 15V range. The cards rarely were a complete
computer but more like a sequencer or other fixed logic system that was
designed for a specific use.
Use care powering that as power supplies may have bad caps, and wires
may be cut/shorted.
Allison
Jay wrote:
>>
>> Ok, I'll trump your VCD with...
>>
>> Laserdisc
Is this thread somewhat vaguely related to classic computing?
Yup.
The first (and only) time I saw a laserdisc was around 1991. I was at school and among the Acorn Archemedes in the computer room (so called because it was full of computers!) was a newfangled piece of kit. It looked like a vinyl LP player, but had a shiny disc on it the size of an LP. We were told not to go near it , presumably because of the laser.
When the teacher left the room at lunchbreak some of us did take a closer look, but being about 12 at the time (and having never owned a CD player at that time) I was rather clueless as to what it was.
I know laserdiscs are largely used for films (hence why I can see why Jay thought they were off-topic), but I believe this one had some sort of software on it. Not sure now whether the laserdisc player was hooked up to one of the Archemedes, or some new computer. Almost all the computers at school were Acorn Archemedes, except for a handfull of BBC's.
Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
> OK I'll bring it back around.....during VCF Midwest I saw a
> DEC-branded Laserdisc unit at Pat's computer wonderland.
Was it a top loader or a tray?
I pulled apart an old InfoTrac library system that used a
Pioneer LD-V1000 since CD-ROM drives were not yet available.
Top loader, CAV disks only. Real He-Ne laser on the sled.
The Centronix connector was a proprietory parallel port
controlling video playback, getting frame #
and it allowed reading digital data if it was recorded in that format
(video playback was still NTSC, no digital at all, not even a frame buffer).
citing
http://www.laserdiscarchive.co.uk/laserdisc_archive/pioneer/pioneer_ld-v100…
This is an NTSC laser disc player that was used in
Astron Belt (with proper hardware), Badlands (with different EPROM),
Casino Strip, Cobra Command (with proper hardware),
Dragon's Lair, Esh's Aurunmilla, Galaxy Ranger (with proper hardware),
Interstellar, Space Ace, Super Don Quixote, and Thayer's Quest
hello all,
i have an SGI indigo2 which ive installed a 2GB IBM hard drive in. however,
>from a cold boot, i receive a drive/cable error, and it asks me to press any
key to continue. when i do, i press start system and it all comes to life.
im assuming it takes longer for the drive to spin up than the indigo2 takes
to wait for the drive. is there a way to adjust this? thanks
We've got a Tektronix 4051 with the optional Data Comms Interface and tons
of tape cartridges. As the belts in the Scotch/3M DC300 tapes are worn out
or torn I need to copy the contents 1:1 to other media. But how?
The simplest would be to write a simple BASIC program that will read in
each tape file and send it over V.24 (and back again for new media).
I'm looking for a solution that will work with all file types (e.g.
SECRET program files). It would be nice if there was a way to program the
4051 in machine language in order to have raw access to the files and its
headers.
Christian
On Nov 10, 2007, at 10:00 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
> hello all,
> i have an SGI indigo2 which ive installed a 2GB IBM hard drive in.
> however,
> from a cold boot, i receive a drive/cable error, and it asks me to
> press any
> key to continue. when i do, i press start system and it all comes to
> life.
> im assuming it takes longer for the drive to spin up than the indigo2
> takes
> to wait for the drive. is there a way to adjust this? thanks
Which drive? IBM has a number of 2GB drives, and I know definitely that
one of them (0664) doesn't work in a R3k Indigo at all. OTOH, SGI OEMed
some IBM drives, so it isn't all of them (the 0664 was originally from
a RS/6000 AFAIK).
The Hitachi site has setup sheets still for many old IBM drives - see
if there's a "spinup on power-on" jumper.
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 12:31:28 -0700
> From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca>
> Subject: Re: modern serial terminal
>
> PS. I like windows/95 over the latest versions of linux ... Too much bloat.
>
There was never a version of Linux, or UNIX in general, less bloated
than Windows 95. Windows 95 will very comfortably get you TCP/IP,
protected memory, preemptive multitasking[1], and a graphical desktop on
a 486 SX with 8M of RAM. Linux 2.0 with XF86 3.x was a carnival of
swapping on that configuration. Solaris x86 wouldn't even boot.
If Windows 3.1 was the last nail in the coffin for UNIX on the desktop,
Windows 95 was the last shovel of dirt and the weepy obit.
It's almost fun to load up Redhat 4 on a typical PC of the day and watch
it take twenty minutes to boot.
[1] Yes, Windows 95 had memory protection and preemptive multitasking.
All native win32 and native kernel code ran that way. The catch was that
16 bit drivers and applications were exempted from these restrictions.
Worse still, Windows 95 shipped with some 16 bit drivers for generic
devices, giving you a broken configuration out of the box on a lot of
hardware.
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 16:54:18 -0500 (EST)
From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope)
Subject: Re: Commodore PET
>DRAM!? In a PET?! That is crazy talk! ;) There was never even DRAM in
>the C64... Although I believe the SuperCPU used DRAM memory, but that
>was third-party.
--------
Say what?
AFAIK all their stuff used DRAM except for the first two 8K versions and the
oddball VIC-20 (or VolksComputer as it was known in Germany to avoid the
connotations of a certain homonym of VIC, pronounced 'fick' in German...),
which they probably produced to use up 2114s left over from the old PETs ;-)
I've never owned or seen any 8K PETs other than the 6540/6550 version,
but as Ethan says there was a 2114 version with industry-standard ROMS;
>=16K units were all DRAM AFAIK. Once DRAM caught on it didn't make
economic sense to use SRAM in any quantity; look at S-100 boards.
m
-----------Original Message(s):
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 19:38:08 +1300
From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at usap.gov>
Subject: Re: Commodore PET
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20071110063808.GA31194 at usap.gov>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Fri, Nov 09, 2007 at 09:23:25PM -0700, Richard wrote:
>
> That's cool! This is the first I've heard of bitmapped graphics on
> the PET.
The first bit-mapped board I saw for the PET was by, IIRC, MTU. It was
advertised in Byte, etc., in the day. Never saw one up close, just
screenshots of plotted mathematical equations.
-ethan
------------Reply:
Ah, their logo, the ubiquitous 'hat'...
Just happen to have one; the first version was actually designed for the
KIM & SYM (SRAM BTW) and when the PET came out they made an
adapter board for it; the second version was specifically for the PET and
had DRAM, and they could both also be used as ordinary expansion
memory. They also made music boards & software for KIM/SYM/PET,
expansion chassis, and other neat stuff for 6502-powered machines.
Their catalogue'll make you drool...
m
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 18:37:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com>
Subject: Re: Commodore PET
>> "Collectible Microcomputers" says: $150 to $400 (chiclet keyboard),
>> $25 to $150 (typewriter keyboard)
>>
>> But I don't find that their idea of prices translates at all to the
>> real world. Maybe about 10 years ago when noone cared about vintage
>> computers, but not now.
>FWIW, my Chiclet PET cost me a cool $900.
--------
Feh! My 8032/8050 cost me $5000!
And the Chiclet PET >$1000 IIRC.
Of course, that was a while ago, when no one cared about vintage computers
'cause there weren't any to speak of, and in CDN$ when they were worthless ;-)
Gonna run downstairs right now to replace the upgrade keyboard with the
original keyboard & tape drive; oughta double my net worth... ;-)
mike
> I have a drive and controller that Don Maslin gave me supposedly from
> a Tek terminal of some sort. It's a Wangtek drive and a like-sized
> controller board with an 8085 on it. Interfaces on both ends are 50
> conductor--if the computer side was something like SASI, it wouldn't
> surprise me--I've never had to use it. The pinch roller in the drive
> is in pretty bad shape now, though that could be dealt with without
> too much trouble, I imagine. I wonder if the drive-side interface
> isn't QIC-36, which would mean that there are PC-based controllers
> available for it.
--
The tape drive in a 405x predates QIC. The head is fixed in place and
uses one track for clock and one for data. It is more similar to digital
cassettes than the later QIC drives.
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:37:52 -0500
From: "Golan Klinger" <gklinger at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Commodore PET
>The last PET 2001 with the chiclet keyboard I bought cost me $35.
>Clearly, there are bargains to be had. $150 is a fair price though.
Shhhh!
I wanna find another Cameron that'll give me $900!
(CDN$, none of that US green paper...)
mike
Anyone has the above ?
It is a 14 pin TTL IC, according to google some sort of CRC generator.
It is part of the mididisk controller of the ETH Lilith, which I am
reverse engineering.
Jos
-----------Original Message:
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 11:47:34 -0800
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
Subject: Re: CDC Terminal (was Commodore PET)
On 9 Nov 2007 at 14:17, M H Stein wrote:
> Control Data Corporation
> QSE 1253 Display Controller
> QSE 1255 Display Equipment
Maybe Billy Petit recognizes this. Before I saw the above, I was
about to declare it an Intercom terminal controller (Intercom
stations were used for remote job entry). But QSE is CDC parlance
for "Quote for Special Equipment" (as opposed to QSS "Quote for
Special Software"). Which means that it was a custom-order job,
perhaps for a defense customer.
Cheers,
Chuck
---------Reply:
Makes sense. Assuming I'm looking at the right PCB rack it's pretty
modular; the cards all look pretty well the same and it also had a quite
large and some smaller diode matrix boards, so I guess with the right
cards, backplane wiring and diode placement you could make it do
pretty well anything.
Defence? In Canada? We're your peace-lovin' neighbour who welcomes
our enemies with open arms (and without the kind of arms you carry
down there)...
m
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 20:53:54 +0000
From: Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Commodore PET
<snip>
> In my not-so-humble opinion, the PET's metal case and automobile-style 'hood'
> ('bonnet' to you), hefty linear power supply, crisp built-in monitor, IEEE port, and its
> generous supply of other I/O ports, not to mention Commodore's good official
> support, made it stand out among the Apples and R-S model 1s of the day.
I think it's not that they're particularly bad, just that I'm failing to see
why they've got quite the following that they have (unless this is just
another one of those UK/US differences - there were lots of expandable,
well-built, well-documented systems around in the UK back in the day, but
perhaps that wasn't so true of the US?)
On a personal note, the styling never appealed somehow - a dinky monitor
physically bolted to a large, squat, angular case with a large footprint just
didn't seem too practical. But then I've never been a big fan of all-in-one
systems anyway, I suppose - I'd much rather have separate keyboard / display /
CPU / drives, and with units that took up vertical space in favour of horizontal.
----------------
MHS:
Well, that 'splains everything; I'm a horizontal kind of guy and bemoan the trend
for PCs to go from AT style to towers; they're coming back to horizontal but now
they're too small to put any drives into. Then again, once you put your TV set or
monitor on top of your Apple it didn't look much different; just a fuzzier display
and some extra cables. But a PET sure wasn't as easy to carry over to a friend's
house to play with, I'll grant you that.
To each his/her own as far as styling goes, but it did look more like a 'computer'
(i.e. terminal), at least after that very first graphic kbd/tape drive version. The BM
in CBM did stand for Business Machines after all...
========
> And, as an aside, it was many years before the mainstream reached the 500MB
> *per side* of the 8050 and 8250 disk drives (which could use pretty well any
> diskette you had on hand, soft sector, 10 or 16S hard sector, whatever).
Granted that does seem pretty good (I assume you mean 500KB ;) - I think Acorn
would have been doing 400KB around that time but a lot of the competition (at
least in the UK) were aiming at something like half that.
-----------------
Oops; a small glitch in the 1/2 MB to 500K conversion...
========
I'm not really serious about them being nasty machines (hence the smiley in
the original message) - they just don't really 'do' anything for me. But then
we all have out *cough* 'pet' systems... ;)
(Anyone know the price on a 8250 drive back in the day? I bet they didn't come
cheap!)
cheers
Jules
-----------------
Well, yes, there is that; $2000+...
But they were meant for someone who could write them off their taxes...
m
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:45:36 +1300
From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at usap.gov>
Subject: Re: Commodore PET
<snip>
>I got a lot of miles out of that PET. I still have it and it still
>fires up (but I think I have an IEEE problem that may turn out to be
>cruddy 40-pin sockets on the VLSI I/O chips).
<snip>
Those sockets were indeed a PITA, but another easy-to-overlook problem
I ran into with my 8050 disk drive is that if you happen to catch the tip of
one of the contacts in the female IEEE connector while plugging in the cable
you can easily push it into the connector and out the back, causing an
intermittent.
m
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 09:55:34 +0000
From: Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Commodore PET
>We still seem to get them offered to the museum in healthy numbers - including
>the chicklet models (and once in a while one of the blue-fronted ones, which I
>believe are the earliest).
>I've never tried actively seeking one out though as there's been no need.
>Finding one that works seems to be the difficult bit - I don't think I've ever
>seen one which hasn't required some form of TLC inside. Nasty, clunky,
>horrible things they are ;-)
>cheers
>Jules
--------Reply:
Well, recognizing that this was probably just flame bait, I respectfully disagree.
Granted, with time there were problems with poor connectors and failing RAM
& ROM chips, but that was common in systems of that day (and still is).
In my not-so-humble opinion, the PET's metal case and automobile-style 'hood'
('bonnet' to you), hefty linear power supply, crisp built-in monitor, IEEE port, and its
generous supply of other I/O ports, not to mention Commodore's good official
support, made it stand out among the Apples and R-S model 1s of the day.
Mine _is_ originally one of the blue-front models and it still works fine to this day;
the only problems I've had with it is one of the ROMs developing a stuck bit and
the occasional dirty connector, and the keyboard contacts need to be cleaned
once in a while (and a little rust from Racoons peeing on it while it sat for many
years in the garage with a hole in the roof).
And, as an aside, it was many years before the mainstream reached the 500MB
*per side* of the 8050 and 8250 disk drives (which could use pretty well any
diskette you had on hand, soft sector, 10 or 16S hard sector, whatever).
Archiving some 25+ year old diskettes recently I had one read error in 20 diskettes
(and I could use the computer for playing a fast game or two while formatting
or copying diskettes)...
m
At least one version of the Aston Martin Lagonda used CRTs driven by
some sort of microcomputer for the dashboard displays. Anyone know
anything more about it?
Short of scouring eBay and buying such a car (and incurring the wrath of
SWMBO) I can't find out much about it. I bet someone here knows though.
Gordon
----------
From: Richard[SMTP:legalize at xmission.com]
Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 12:33 PM
To: M H Stein
Subject: Re: Commodore PET
[off-list reply]
[on-list re-reply for general interest]
In article <01C822C6.8F421200 at MSE_D03>,
M H Stein <dm561 at torfree.net> writes:
> Just one of many things I dumpstered before I saw the light; the North
> Star and CDC terminal I tossed because I only wanted the desks, the
What "CDC terminal"?
----------------
Reply:
Well, "terminal" might not have been accurate; it might have been a console
or even something else altogether
But it so happens I still have the 'desk' and some of its innards; the
model numbers are:
Control Data Corporation
QSE 1253 Display Controller
QSE 1255 Display Equipment
Maybe someone on the list knows more.
I may be confusing it with an MDS Data entry station which I scrapped
for the same reason (I needed a lot of small desks to put computers
and terminals on), but I believe it was the CDC unit that had the 3-row rack
of cards, mostly populated with house-numbered 10-pin TO-5 ICs and
an acoustic delay line for memory, and it was the MDS unit that had
the larger boards and the small core memory plane that are all still lying
around somewhere in the Chaos Basement.
mike
>
>Subject: Re: WTB: LIM/EMS/XMS 16-bit ISA memory expansion board
> From: woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca>
> Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2007 17:53:05 -0600
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
>> Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>> Make isn't important, as long as it'll hold at least a couple of MB
>>> and will work with a "plane Jane" 286.
>>
>> <AOL>Me too!</AOL>
>>
>> Seriously, I'm looking too.
>>
>> Peace... Sridhar
>I am looking for anything that *DOES* not end in 86.
>> .
Sounds like someone looking for an ASk 6Pak Pro.
Allison
> I think the ROMs from the cartridges
> should be dumped, too.
I've dumped the ones that I have, would be a good thing to have copies from
another source.
> We've got a Tektronix 4051 with the optional Data Comms Interface and tons
> of tape cartridges. As the belts in the Scotch/3M DC300 tapes are worn out
> or torn I need to copy the contents 1:1 to other media. But how?
I have a box of tapes from Jim Willing that I need to deal with as well. There
was a GPIB version of the drive used in the 405x that I have. The service manual
goes into more detail than the service manual for the main unit. I also have a
couple of the bare drives and had intended to hook them up to the same sort of
interface that I've been using to deal with other cassette media.
Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 10:22:41 +0100
From: Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel <jos.mar at bluewin.ch>
Subject: Re: Commodore PET
<snip>
>To think I left a chicklet keyboard pet in a dumpster, just a few years
>ago. "Too much stuff, it's just a PET, I can always get another.."
>Jos
------------
I probably put it there ;-)
Just one of many things I dumpstered before I saw the light; the North
Star and CDC terminal I tossed because I only wanted the desks, the
Cromemco Z-2 because I only wanted the PS, the calcs I wanted the
Nixies and core out of, the Selectric and Diablo printers, Burroughs L,
F and E stuff because I figured no one would ever 'collect' one, etc. etc.
Regrets, I've had a few...
Fortunately I kept my original PET 'cause I was (and still am) using it
occasionally.
m
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 20:24:38 +1300
From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at usap.gov>
<snip>
If someone tried to hack DRAMs in place on a static board, I'll bet that's
a mess. I have a 2001-16N board with factory perforations on the high 16K
RAM pads that I'd like to eventually reburbish to a full 32K.
If you really are interested in finding someone who is willing/able to
make that one live once again, I am entirely willing to give it a go. I
don't have a shell here, but I already have a 3032 board on the way here
>from Sweden, so I was planning on trying to build a keyboard adapter of
some kind and an XOR-based composite-out adapter with a closed-circuit
TV monitor to get it all working. Doing the same for an old PET wouldn't
be that much of a stretch (I was planning on using a C2N232 adapter for
mass storage, eliminating the need to send down a real floppy drive).
-ethan
--------Reply:
I was going to do the same thing, sort of a PET in an AppleII-type case, but
it'll never happen so you're welcome to it. I've also got a keyboard for it (the
later version) and video's a no-brainer.
I also have a case (no monitor) but I think I'll keep that in case I _do_ decide
to do this one day with another less needy mobo.
Mind you, the plug-in chips are missing, so by the time you've hacked in
a 32K RAM chip and EPROM there wouldn't be much left of the original
PET...
We'll talk off-list.
m
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 22:36:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com>
Subject: Re: Commodore PET
>>> The last PET 2001 with the chiclet keyboard I bought cost me $35.
>>> Clearly, there are bargains to be had. $150 is a fair price though.
>
>> Shhhh!
>> I wanna find another Cameron that'll give me $900!
>In all seriousness, I think it was worth it and I'm happy to have it.
>Wouldn't drop that kind of coin on just anything.
More power to ya, I say. The value of this kind of thing is purely subjective,
depending solely on what it (and $900) are worth to *you*, and I too feel that
there's something very special about that model and the community that
grew up around it (especially here in Toronto, Commodore's birthplace
and home of Jim Butterfield, TPUG, The Transactor, Batteries Included etc),
as opposed to AppleIIs & R-S M1s. Remarkable that TPUG (Toronto PET
Users' Group) is still around, and even with some of the original members
(although scaled down somewhat from its glory days).
Of course it was my 'first' and I have many warm memories and pictures of
me and family playing with it, not to mention all the doodads & mods I made
for it, so I'm somewhat biased.
Then again, from the point of view of the 'collectors' on this list, it should
be worth $0...
m
One line of systems I see very little about on the web or in vintage computing
circles are the Alpha Microsystems units (not! DEC! Alpha!~). Now that I have
my own Alpha Micro Eagle 300, I've compiled together most of my notes on
various models, a primer to AMOS, some software and a link library and put
the E300 into the server rack so that a real AMOS/AlphaTCP system can serve
it itself.
Hopefully this will be useful to other people who have been curious about
Alpha Micro boxes.
http://ampm.floodgap.com/
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismograph. -- Ken Kesey -------------
The following items are outside of my sphere of interest, but I bet some on
this list would be interested, so here goes...
I have available for trade a complete set of the first few years of the HP
Key Notes magazine:
HP Key Notes 1977 Vol 1; numbers 1,2 (featuring the HP-01), and 3
HP Key Notes 1978 Vol 2; numbers 1,2,3,4
HP Key Notes 1979 Vol 3; numbers 1,2,3
Plus
HP Key Notes 1981 Vol 5; numbers 1, 3
and
"The Hewlett-Packard Personal Calculator Digest" magazine Volume Three
1977. Cover HP-19C
and
HP 67/97 User's Library Catalog of contributed programs (not the programs
themselves)
with program submittal worksheets
If interested, contact me via billdeg at aol dot com or my web site,
vintagecomputer.net. I would consider almost any reasonable trade
> My PET 2001-32N (badged as a 3032 in Europe) was $1195 with a C2N and no
> disk...
>
> I got a lot of miles out of that PET. I still have it and it still
> fires up (but I think I have an IEEE problem that may turn out to be
> cruddy 40-pin sockets on the VLSI I/O chips).
>
Way back when, the company bought a 2032 for stock control and invoicing,
used for 5 years or so.
After about a year it continually needed opening up and the chips reseating,
got so frustrated with this that we replaced ALL the Ic sockets with "turned
pin" types and never had anymore problems with that machine ever again.
Mike
> From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
> Subject: Re: Televideo Terminals TS-800A (UK)
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Message-ID: <47323EAB.24181.81E5663 at cclist.sydex.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On 7 Nov 2007 at 21:25, Roger Ivie wrote:
>
> > I've not encountered a TS-800, but I was under the impression
> that they were
> > diskless workstations for use with something like a TS-806 MMMOST
> > server.
>
> According to the Russian televideo.ru site, the TS-800 is a sump
> pump:
>
> http://www.televideo.ru/product.asp?idDepartament=216&idProduct=11357&
> cas=9
>
> My recollection of the TS-800A was a diskless Z80 workstation,
> interfaced via RS-422 (IIRC).
>
> Cheers, :)
> Chuck
Hehe - nice pump lol. I have asked for confirmation of the exact model
number so we can be sure. Apologies for any confusion. Herewith a link to an
image which may help to identify same.
http://www.attfield.co.uk/gallery/tv.jpg
Jim
