On Sep 26 2005, 17:29, Gooijen, Henk wrote:
> > >BTW, I assume that you made a typo in the serpentine:
> > >> option2|option1
> > >> option3|option4
> > >> option5|option6
> > >That last line should be option6|option5, or ......?
> > >
> > As shown it is correct. 2,3,5 on the left: 1,4,6 on the right.
> > it's one of the odder -11 backplanes.
> > My source was the Microcomputer handbook 1976/77.
> > I also have one with core in it.
> thanks again! Indeed odd, as that is not the "serpentine rule" !
> I am sure that I would have made that mistake ...
No, that's not right. It's ordinary serpentine. I don't have one, but
I just checked the Microcomputer Handbook myself, and it's definitely
like this:
A B C D
processor
option 2 option 1
option 3 option 4
option 6 option 5
It's on page 6-3, and the expansion options, with the cable coming from
where I've shown "option 6", are shown on 6-19. It's also shown in the
same arrangement on page 426 of the Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
>From: "der Mouse" <mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca>
>
>> When connecting DRAM chips to the pins of a SIMM (i.e. laying out the
>> traces) does it matter if the order of the address and data lines is
>> preserved? [...]
>
>What about refreshes? (This is a question, not a challenge; I do not
>know enough about how dynamic RAM refresh works to know whether this
>really is relevant. But it seems to me that it might be.)
Hi
Only that the first address lines that are used for refresh
need to be grouped. As example for a 128 cycle refresh, that would
be that one could mix any of the A0-A6 lines. This is because
of how the blocks of RAM are accessed and then selected by
a mux to the output. If you took a 128 cycle refresh and swapped
A0 with A7, only half the arrays would get refresh. It still
might not be an issue, depending on software and other hardware.
One can do refresh by just reading the array, such as a DMA for
video out might do.
Dwight
>
>/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
>\ / Ribbon Campaign
> X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
>/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>
> >Together with the info from Pete I am on the safe side to
> >turn on power.
> >BTW, I assume that you made a typo in the serpentine:
> >> option2|option1
> >> option3|option4
> >> option5|option6
> >That last line should be option6|option5, or ......?
> >
>
> As shown it is correct. 2,3,5 on the left: 1,4,6 on the right.
> it's one of the odder -11 backplanes. I believe the reson
> for that odd layout is when cascading multiple boxes (BA11M)
> the cables orient easier as option 5 to next box topleft is
> the shown configuration and the REV-11 prom boot is nominally
> in option6 as bus grant continuity is not required for most memories.
>
> My source was the Microcomputer handbook 1976/77.
> I also have one with core in it.
>
> Allison
Allison,
thanks again! Indeed odd, as that is not the "serpentine rule" !
I am sure that I would have made that mistake ...
73,
- Henk, PA8PDP.
>
>Subject: RE: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270
> From: "Gooijen, Henk" <GOOI at oce.nl>
> Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 15:37:11 +0200
> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>> usual config is:
>> M7264 (quad)
>> option2|option1
>> option3|option4
>> option5|option6
>>
>> Others:
>> M7270 |M8044
>> option2|option1
>> option3|option4
>> option5|option6
>>
>> Option1 is typically DLV11 (SLU)
>> option2 is typcailly DLV11 (SLU#2)
>> option3 is typically RXV11 (floppy)
>> option4 is typcically REV11 (floppy boot prom)
>>
>> Allison
>
>Thanks Allison!
>Together with the info from Pete I am on the safe side to turn on power.
>BTW, I assume that you made a typo in the serpentine:
>> option2|option1
>> option3|option4
>> option5|option6
>That last line should be option6|option5, or ......?
>
As shown it is correct. 2,3,5 on the left: 1,4,6 on the right.
it's one of the odder -11 backplanes. I believe the reson for that
odd layout is when cascading multiple boxes (BA11M) the cables
orient easier as option 5 to next box topleft is the shown
configuration and the REV-11 prom boot is nominally in option6
as bus grant continuity is not required for most memories.
My source was the Microcomputer handbook 1976/77.
I also have one with core in it.
Allison
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison
> Sent: maandag 26 september 2005 15:20
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: RE: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270
>
> >
> >Subject: RE: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270
> > From: "Gooijen, Henk" <GOOI at oce.nl>
> > Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:42:48 +0200
> > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
> Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> >
> >Thanks Pete.
> >I had a look at the backplane yesterday, but did not see an
> >Hxxxx number.
> >There was a xx-yyyyy (?) digit number, but I will check
> >again this evening.
>
> That number may be cross referenced to a Mxxxx number. Most
> likely M9270 as that was common use for the BA11M based
> LSI-11/03 system package with H780 PS. The H780 carries two
> fans and is known to sing (high pitch
> whistle) and that is most recognizable!
>
> >
> > <------ M7270 ------> <------ M8044 ------> ==================
> > <------ empty ------> <------ M7940 ------> | o o __ __ __ |
> > <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> | ~~ ~~ ~~ |
> > <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> ==================
>
> usual config is:
> M7264 (quad)
> option2|option1
> option3|option4
> option5|option6
>
> Others:
> M7270 |M8044
> option2|option1
> option3|option4
> option5|option6
>
> Option1 is typically DLV11 (SLU)
> option2 is typcailly DLV11 (SLU#2)
> option3 is typically RXV11 (floppy)
> option4 is typcically REV11 (floppy boot prom)
>
> It is also possible to use core (MMV11-A) in this system but
> it leaves limited space for serial or disk interfaces.
>
> >The figure is as seen from the front side when the front
> cover is removed.
> >The "art work" shows the panel with the switches and LEDs at
> the right.
> >To remove a board from the cage you must pull the board "out of the
> >screen", so the magenta handles are at the front side.
> >
> >The FieldGuide says that a few lines are used for something else, but
> >I expect (hope) that the M7270 and the M7264 usage of all connections
> >is identical.
>
> M7264 and M7270 are identical CPUs (LSI-11 chipset aka
> KD-11F) with the differnce
> that the M7264 has 0 to 4k of local ram on the card. Bus
> usage is identical and
> they are 16bit address (Q16).
>
> >It makes perfect sense that I will have to adjust the base address of
> >the memory on the M8044 if I install the M7264. I will take an other
> >look at the memory board with the new information from you.
> >I will dig up the MicroNotes!
>
> Correct. Note: M8044 can have variable population of ram and there
> are varients for sizes from 4KW (W is 16bit word) to 32KW. the board
> also carried parity is some versions.
>
> M8044-AA 4k no parity MSV11-DA
> M8044-BA 8K no parity MSV-11DC
> M8044-CA 16K no parity MSV11-CA
> M8044-DA 32K no parity MSV11-DD
> M8045-DA 32k Parity MSV11-ED
>
> >It will be interesting to see what the system does when I
> power it up.
> >The console is connected to the M7940 ... I hope to see a prompt!
>
> Base DLV-11 SLU, make sure the addresses and vectors are
> setup as console.
> (177560rx, 177564 tx, v60rx,V64tx) nominal baud rate could
> be anything
> from 110-9600. Common baud used was 300, 1200 and 9600.
>
> >Regarding the M8018 WCS option: is this "just" a chip, like
> FIS or the
> >big CIS one? I thought it was a board (module) as the M
> number suggests.
> >Anybody here has a M8018 WCS and can tell more about it?
>
> It'a a board of quad width. Power for the board comes off the bus but
> it's signals are a cable to one of the LSI-11 microm sockets (40 pin).
> Besides acting as programable microcode store there are IO registers
> to allow writing and reading the ram content as well as mapping where
> the code store appears in CPU microcode address map.
>
>
> Allison
Thanks Allison!
Together with the info from Pete I am on the safe side to turn on power.
BTW, I assume that you made a typo in the serpentine:
> option2|option1
> option3|option4
> option5|option6
That last line should be option6|option5, or ......?
73,
- Henk, PA8PDP.
>
>Subject: RE: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270
> From: "Gooijen, Henk" <GOOI at oce.nl>
> Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2005 13:42:48 +0200
> To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
>Thanks Pete.
>I had a look at the backplane yesterday, but did not see an Hxxxx number.
>There was a xx-yyyyy (?) digit number, but I will check again this evening.
That number may be cross referenced to a Mxxxx number. Most likely M9270
as that was common use for the BA11M based LSI-11/03 system package with
H780 PS. The H780 carries two fans and is known to sing (high pitch
whistle) and that is most recognizable!
>
> <------ M7270 ------> <------ M8044 ------> ==================
> <------ empty ------> <------ M7940 ------> | o o __ __ __ |
> <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> | ~~ ~~ ~~ |
> <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> ==================
usual config is:
M7264 (quad)
option2|option1
option3|option4
option5|option6
Others:
M7270 |M8044
option2|option1
option3|option4
option5|option6
Option1 is typically DLV11 (SLU)
option2 is typcailly DLV11 (SLU#2)
option3 is typically RXV11 (floppy)
option4 is typcically REV11 (floppy boot prom)
It is also possible to use core (MMV11-A) in this system but
it leaves limited space for serial or disk interfaces.
>The figure is as seen from the front side when the front cover is removed.
>The "art work" shows the panel with the switches and LEDs at the right.
>To remove a board from the cage you must pull the board "out of the
>screen", so the magenta handles are at the front side.
>
>The FieldGuide says that a few lines are used for something else, but
>I expect (hope) that the M7270 and the M7264 usage of all connections
>is identical.
M7264 and M7270 are identical CPUs (LSI-11 chipset aka KD-11F) with the differnce
that the M7264 has 0 to 4k of local ram on the card. Bus usage is identical and
they are 16bit address (Q16).
>It makes perfect sense that I will have to adjust the base address of
>the memory on the M8044 if I install the M7264. I will take an other
>look at the memory board with the new information from you.
>I will dig up the MicroNotes!
Correct. Note: M8044 can have variable population of ram and there
are varients for sizes from 4KW (W is 16bit word) to 32KW. the board
also carried parity is some versions.
M8044-AA 4k no parity MSV11-DA
M8044-BA 8K no parity MSV-11DC
M8044-CA 16K no parity MSV11-CA
M8044-DA 32K no parity MSV11-DD
M8045-DA 32k Parity MSV11-ED
>It will be interesting to see what the system does when I power it up.
>The console is connected to the M7940 ... I hope to see a prompt!
Base DLV-11 SLU, make sure the addresses and vectors are setup as console.
(177560rx, 177564 tx, v60rx,V64tx) nominal baud rate could be anything
>from 110-9600. Common baud used was 300, 1200 and 9600.
>Regarding the M8018 WCS option: is this "just" a chip, like FIS or the
>big CIS one? I thought it was a board (module) as the M number suggests.
>Anybody here has a M8018 WCS and can tell more about it?
It'a a board of quad width. Power for the board comes off the bus but
it's signals are a cable to one of the LSI-11 microm sockets (40 pin).
Besides acting as programable microcode store there are IO registers
to allow writing and reading the ram content as well as mapping where
the code store appears in CPU microcode address map.
Allison
> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull
> Sent: maandag 26 september 2005 12:59
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: difference between LSI-11 CPU's M7264 and M7270
>
> On Sep 26 2005, 8:40, Gooijen, Henk wrote:
>
> > I cleaned the dust out of a small 4 slot card cage with the power
> > supply at the right side. I was never good at naming the BA box types,
so
> > here is the description. When you look at the front side, the 4 slots
are
> > at the left side, and the PSU is at the right side and has at the front
3
> > switches (DC on/off, enable/halt, and LTC on/off) and 2 LEDs (DC on and
run).
> > The following cards are installed (I have not yet powered up this unit).
>
> Sounds like the innards of a BA11-M, especially given the
> boards you have. Check the number on the backplane, it
> should be a H9270, which is an 18-bit serpentine backplane.
>
> > <------ M7270 ------> <------ M8044 ------> ==================
> > <------ empty ------> <------ M7940 ------> | o o __ __ __ |
> > <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> | ~~ ~~ ~~ |
> > <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> ==================
> >
> > I have 2 questions from this system.
> > 1) As I am not that familiar with QBUS, are the cards in the correct
> > slot?
>
> Usually you draw the boards positions as seen from the rear
> (from the handles). Is the M7270 to the left of the M8044
> when seen from that direction? It should be. What you've
> drawn is correct for the view from the handles.
>
> > 2) The M8044 says on the handle "M8044-DK" but on the board
> > is in the etch "M8045" and "16KW x 18 BIT" (IIRC that last part).
> > Strange or common ?
>
> M8045 and M8044 are the same board but the 8045 has extra RAM
> for parity and a few extra components fitted to enable it.
> 8044 is MSV11-D (non-parity) and 8045 is MSV11-E (parity).
> What you have is not at all unusual.
>
> > An other thing is the following. I also have a M7264. This board is
> > quad sized, but has 4 kW memory on the CPU board. The M7270 is dual
> > sized (with no RAM).
> > Can I remove the M7270 and M8044 and put the M7264 instead in the
> > above rack?
>
> Yes, but you may need to alter a few things, starting with the memory.
> If your M7264 has 4KW/8KB memory on it, you'll either need to change
> the start address of the MSV11-D, to be at 020000(8) (= 8192 decimal),
> or disable the memory on the M7264. These processors can only address
> 64KB of memory, so if your MSV11 has much memory on it, you might want
> to disable the 8KB on the processor. If you do, you'll need to disable
> some other things to do with refresh and BRPLY -- the M7264 produces
> a refresh signal which you don't want on the bus, and responds to
> refreshes and memory accesses on the bus.
>
> The MSV11-D/E are available with 4K or 16K DRAMs, and either
> half- or fully-populated, hence they can be any of 8KB, 16KB,
> 32KB, or 64KB, known as MSV11-DA, -DB, DC, DD. The second
> letter on the handle, however, is different -- it tells you
> where the chips came from, not the size.
>
> > The reason for this swap is that I hoipe one day to add a M8018
> > (WCS), and as far as I know, the WCS option does not work with the
> > M7270, but only with the M7264. Is this correct?
>
> Dunno. As far as I know, it just plugs into one of the MICROM
> sockets, where the KEV11 (EIS/FIS upgrade would go), so it may work
> on any version of the 11/03. If it's specific to one, it may be
> that it works on a KD11-J (M7264-YA, without memory) but not a
> KD11-F (M7264, with 4KW memory) because they are different board
> layouts. Or, more likely, vice versa.
>
> > And *if* the M7264 is installed, can I then move the M7940 to the
> > left in the same slot and put in the open space the M8044?
>
> Yes, that would be best.
>
> --
> Pete Peter Turnbull
> Network Manager
> University of York
Thanks Pete.
I had a look at the backplane yesterday, but did not see an Hxxxx number.
There was a xx-yyyyy (?) digit number, but I will check again this evening.
<------ M7270 ------> <------ M8044 ------> ==================
<------ empty ------> <------ M7940 ------> | o o __ __ __ |
<------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> | ~~ ~~ ~~ |
<------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> ==================
The figure is as seen from the front side when the front cover is removed.
The "art work" shows the panel with the switches and LEDs at the right.
To remove a board from the cage you must pull the board "out of the
screen", so the magenta handles are at the front side.
The FieldGuide says that a few lines are used for something else, but
I expect (hope) that the M7270 and the M7264 usage of all connections
is identical.
It makes perfect sense that I will have to adjust the base address of
the memory on the M8044 if I install the M7264. I will take an other
look at the memory board with the new information from you.
I will dig up the MicroNotes!
It will be interesting to see what the system does when I power it up.
The console is connected to the M7940 ... I hope to see a prompt!
Regarding the M8018 WCS option: is this "just" a chip, like FIS or the
big CIS one? I thought it was a board (module) as the M number suggests.
Anybody here has a M8018 WCS and can tell more about it?
thanks,
- Henk, PA8PDP.
On Sep 26 2005, 8:40, Gooijen, Henk wrote:
> I cleaned the dust out of a small 4 slot card cage with the power
supply
> at the right side. I was never good at naming the BA box types, so
here is
> the description. When you look at the front side, the 4 slots are at
the
> left side, and the PSU is at the right side and has at the front 3
switches
> (DC on/off, enable/halt, and LTC on/off) and 2 LEDs (DC on and run).
> The following cards are installed (I have not yet powered up this
unit).
Sounds like the innards of a BA11-M, especially given the boards you
have. Check the number on the backplane, it should be a H9270, which
is an 18-bit serpentine backplane.
> <------ M7270 ------> <------ M8044 ------> ==================
> <------ empty ------> <------ M7940 ------> | o o __ __ __ |
> <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> | ~~ ~~ ~~ |
> <------ empty ------> <------ empty ------> ==================
>
> I have 2 questions from this system.
> 1) As I am not that familiar with QBUS, are the cards in the correct
slot?
Usually you draw the boards positions as seen from the rear (from the
handles). Is the M7270 to the left of the M8044 when seen from that
direction? It should be. What you've drawn is correct for the view
>from the handles.
> 2) The M8044 says on the handle "M8044-DK" but on the board is in the
etch
> "M8045" and "16KW x 18 BIT" (IIRC that last part). Strange or
common ?
M8045 and M8044 are the same board but the 8045 has extra RAM for
parity and a few extra components fitted to enable it. 8044 is MSV11-D
(non-parity) and 8045 is MSV11-E (parity). What you have is not at
all unusual.
> An other thing is the following. I also have a M7264. This board is
quad
> sized,
> but has 4 kW memory on the CPU board. The M7270 is dual sized (with
no RAM).
> Can I remove the M7270 and M8044 and put the M7264 instead in the
above
> rack?
Yes, but you may need to alter a few things, starting with the memory.
If your M7264 has 4KW/8KB memory on it, you'll either need to change
the start address of the MSV11-D, to be at 020000(8) (= 8192 decimal),
or disable the memory on the M7264. These processors can only address
64KB of memory, so if your MSV11 has much memory on it, you might want
to disable the 8KB on the processor. If you do, you'll need to disable
some other things to do with refresh and BRPLY -- the M7264 produces a
refresh signal which you don't want on the bus, and responds to
refreshes and memory accesses on the bus.
The MSV11-D/E are available with 4K or 16K DRAMs, and either half- or
fully-populated, hence they can be any of 8KB, 16KB, 32KB, or 64KB,
known as MSV11-DA, -DB, DC, DD. The second letter on the handle,
however, is different -- it tells you where the chips came from, not
the size.
> The reason for this swap is that I hoipe one day to add a M8018
(WCS), and
> as far as I know, the WCS option does not work with the M7270, but
only with
> the M7264. Is this correct?
Dunno. As far as I know, it just plugs into one of the MICROM sockets,
where the KEV11 (EIS/FIS upgrade would go), so it may work on any
version of the 11/03. If it's specific to one, it may be that it works
on a KD11-J (M7264-YA, without memory) but not a KD11-F (M7264, with
4KW memory) because they are different board layouts. Or, more likely,
vice versa.
> And *if* the M7264 is installed, can I then move the M7940 to the
left in
> the
> same slot and put in the open space the M8044?
Yes, that would be best.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
