OK, you can remove it by desoldering or whatever, but what about the
distinction between the unprogrammed part, e.g. FPGA when the power's off,
and when it's on and loaded? It's still hardware, isn't it? It's just
different hardware when the configuration code is in it and powered, or is
it?
Now, what about the pseudo hard-disks sold on PCMCIA cards as "flash-disk"
or whatever. Is the stuff stored there firmware or is it software?
I see a change in the generalized definition of "soft" vs. "hard" in this
context in a much more general sense. People talk about machine-readable
copy, e.g. data on floppy disk, as "soft" copy, and they talk about
purportedly fixed specifications or code segments, or definitions, as being
"hard" implying they're, at least relatively, "etched in concrete," as
opposed to being etched in "silly-putty" as some spec's are.
It's just an observation. I was just getting comfortable referring to
loadable programs/data, as one might store on rotating memory, as software,
nonvolatile programs and data (Yes, tables in a code body are data.) stored
in PALs, NVRAM, PROM, ROM, etc, as firmware. There's never been a question
about what the stuff you see, touch, hear when it's running, and may smell
when it's not, as hardware. Who knows, though. I couldn't believe it when
I learned that "duhh" was in the dictionary as a word. I heard yesterday
that the latest Webster has the Seinfeldism "yadda yadda yadda" as a word.
<sigh>
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc)
>Hi Dick
> You can still grab it and remove it ( a little harder ).
>It is still firmware. You put software into firmware.
>Like most definitions, that came about early on, there
>are gray areas. This entire 'what if' is silly.
>Software is what runs and may be in firmware. If we didn't have
>another name for a hard disk, it would have fallen
>under the firmware definition. The code that runs
>is still software. I had a calculator once that used a
>spool of steel tape to contain the program. It was still
>firmware but the information on it was software.
>Dwight
>
>"Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote:
>> You can't always unplug it. Nowadays, the PROMs are soldered in and you
>> reprogram them in situ.
>>
>> How does that effect your definitions?
>>
>> Dick
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com>
>>
>>
>> >"Charles P. Hobbs" <transit(a)primenet.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have
>> >> > to kill you ;-)
>> >>
>> >> Firmware?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >Definitely firmware. You can grab it and remove it. It is
>> >plugged in.
>> >Dwight
>> >
>
Nope. No free slot. The long slot has an IBM 3363 controller in it, and
the other slot won't accept a long cart, because it hits the cooling fan.
Anyone know what the short slot's for?
Yes, I do have the reverence disk. The P70 has 4 SIMM slots.
///--->>>
-Jason Willgruber
(roblwill(a)usaor.net)
ICQ#: 1730318
<http://members.tripod.com/general_1>
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence LeMay <lemay(a)cs.umn.edu>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, August 10, 1999 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: IBM PS/2 P70-386 SIMM needed...+ a couple other things...
>> On 7 Aug 99 at 18:48, Olminkhof wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > >Basically what I meant is banks of two. There's two SIMMS in a bank,
with
>> > 2
>> > >banks, totaling 4 SIMMS.
>> > >
>> > >If you install three 2 MB SIMMS, instead of getting a 6 MB memory
reading,
>> > >you'll get a 4 MB reading and a memory error.
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > Nope.
>> >
>> > You'll get a memory error until you run the reference disk. If you have
an
>> > error while running the reference disk then you have the wrong type of
>> > simms.
>> >
>> > It's not until you get to Pentiums that you need 72pin simms in pairs.
>> >
>> >
>> > >///--->>>
>> > > -Jason Willgruber
>> > >>
>> > >>I've never heard of this "sets of 2" stuff on these.
>> > >>They use the same simms as the desktop model 70 . . ie with
presence
>> > >>detect circuitry.
>> > >>
>> > >>Hans
>> > >>
>>
>> TMK most IBMs (as well as Ataris, Macs and NEXT) require matching simms
in
>> pairs, and as well presence detect in the case of MCA. There is a
hardware hack
>> to get around the P.D. on Peter Wendts site. While I have never tried to
add a
>> single simm physically except to expand the onboard memory of my 8580 to
4m
>> from 2 , IIRC all the docs mention this. I would certainly be delighted
if
>> this were not so. I have an IBM 486 Ambra (non-MCA) which also requires
memory
>> in pairs but doesn't require PD and a single spare non-IBM 8meg which
sits
>> unused because of this limitation. I have an 8570 A-21 desktop (25mhz and
387
>> co-processor) and other PS2s. There is also a 16 meg max limitation on
most of
>> the PS2s altho there are workarounds for this I understand.
>>
>> ciao larry
>> lwalker(a)interlog.com
>>
>
>I thought that at least one of the PS/2 model 70 motherboard versions came
>with 3 simm slots... I dont recall it needing simms in pairs on the
>motherboard, though it does use a non-standard, PS/2 style presence
>detect.
>
>Does the original poster have a free MCA slot for a ram expansion board?
>I have one for a PS/2 model 70, that I assume would work in your system,
>assuming you have the reference diskette for your machine.
>
>-Lawrence LeMay
>
Well, the power problem was easy to fix. Inside the PBX, someone had
disconnected one of the live AC leads froms the screw terminal, and wrapped
the end in electrical tape. Once I figured out where it went (Which was easy,
it was the only unscrewed screw...) and applied power, it did all sorts of
fun stuff. First, the console gets VERY confused when the things boots,
and for about 30 seconds or so, the alarm goes off, all (or most of) the
lights come on, and all of the various tones (intercept, dial, busy, etc.)
sound at once. The tones themselved sound the same as the tones on the
public network today. I was hoping for something interesting... Also, I
found out the PASS and FAIL lights on the test panel are burned out. I'll
have to replace them. The next thing to do is to connect some stations
to it and see what happens. I think I have the proper wiring for this...
Also, does anyone have the pinout of a trunk connector? You see, all we have
at the destination of the PBX (Which is where I work) is Centrex service,
and it sucks because we can't do PBX type stuff like music on hold, or
transfer calls around, or pick up on any line from any phone... Right now
when the phone rings or we have to pick up on certain phones (Cause not all
of them have 4 lines, and of those that do, not all of them work.) and it's
a general mess. So, what's going to be connected to this (if possible) is
just 5 straight phone lines, and we'll have the Centrex service cancelled.
(That way we don't have to dial 2 9s for an outside line.)
SO far, from the console, I can snag a loop, and get an internal dial tone.
If I dial 9 (It is touch-tone), I can get an outside line, but there's nothing
on it so it's just silent. Also, I need to clean out the console buttons,
right now you have to mash pretty hard to make a button go. Other than hat,
I haven't been able to test much. There's no fans, and no loud noises,
it just kinda sits and hums. OH, and I did (try) doing some of the
test described in the DLP books, but a lot of them refrences use of a MAAP
device, which is (apparently) supposed to be located in the PBX cabinet,
but it isn't. The others refrence use of an "X-Ray" tape, I guess this is
like XXDP to a PDP-11. But I don't have it. SO I just skipped those.
Also, is there a special mailing list somewhere for people who play with
old phone stuff? This is getting pretty interesting, and I really hate to
keep perstering people here with this...
Anyway, more tomorrow when I drag a few extensions in!
-------
On Thu, 19 Aug 1999 12:34:18 -0400 "Cini, Richard"
<RCini(a)congressfinancial.com> writes:
> Hello, all:
>
> I had several conversations with Tom Fischer over the last
> few months. And I can understand the underlying premise of introducing
a
> "new" old computer to, IMHO, capitalize on the wave of nostalgia and
the
> desire to move down the power curve a bit.
Not to mention recent E-Bay prices.
> My other concern is cost. For $999, one gets a bullet-proof
> case, new terminated, large, partially-filled backplane, a snazzy front
> panel, and a power supply of dubious quality. No boards. Nothing.
> Non-functional, but pretty.
Well, I've always thought that this guy who's building these has been
spending *way* too much time on e-bay. I think he's counting on selling
to the same idiots who pay $500 for a 'signature' Mac 128.
> And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much??
> Switches: 22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. FP=$100.
> Maybe I have a warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was
expecting
> a lower number.
I dunno, your price breakdown sounds alright to me. Mebbe he figured
that
these are 'hand crafted' hence have some kinda snob appeal.
> I have some old S100 cards to play around with, but I only
> have a non-working Northstar Horizon. So, I would be Tom's target
> audience. I would prefer a kit, though, since I have the skill level
> and interest to assemble one myself.
Well that was the whole point, wasn't it, eh? You built it yourself
because you a) Had more time than money or b) That's the only way
you could get it. I dunno about you, but I certainly fell into the
'more time than money' category (and *still* couldn't afford it).
I believe his target audience has 'more money than {time | brains}'.
I dunno Rich, I always figured you as a pretty smart guy. Maybe
on a budget, too. Would be better just to buy the 'unique' bits,
and piece one together yourself (utilizing the PSU of your choice).
BTW, what's wrong with your Horizon (just curious)?
> Also, Imsai-2 is vaporware.
Um, until he comes up with at least bare boards and stuff, yep,
fer sure.
> Conclusion: although I want an IMSAI badly, I don't think
> that I'm prepared to spend $1k for an out-of-the-box non-functional
> machine.
Ah yes, as I suspected, you're way too smart to be drawn into this
'Techno chic' marketing shtick. That's all it is: chic. This guy's
just trying to 'make hay while the sun shines'.
> If I were buying an "old" non-functional IMSAI, at least I could
> restore it to functioning status. I wouldn't pay $1k for that one,
> either.
True, although this would be the way to go, assuming the price is
right. Even if you just have a pile of old boards, as i said before,
just get the 'unique' stuff, then fill in the gaps with off-the-shelf
items. That's essentially what we did in the old days.
I'm convinced that the IMSAI-2 is a product designed and marketed
expressly for the purpose of becomming a 'Hot Collectable'. I'm
confident in a couple of years you'll see E-Bay ads like this:
RARE! IMSAI-2 Chassis, Complete! One of only 24 Made! L@@K!
Anyway, more then my $0.02, but hey, there it is.
Jeff
>
> Rich
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> Richard Cini
> Vice President
> Congress Financial Corporation
> 1133 Avenue of the Americas
> 30th Floor
> New York, NY 10036
> 212-545-4402 / 212-840-6259 (fax)
> rcini(a)congressfinancial.com
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
I just sold my spare 8505XL, but you should have no trouble finding one for
sale by searching dejanews power search using the string "SALE & EXABYTE."
The software supporting these drives is so shabby that of the four major
packages (of which I have all) for Windows, only one really works in the
general case, and not a one works predictably. My DOS-based software works
perfectly every time with it, though, as with the EXB-8200's which are more
common and more poorly supported because they're SCSI-1.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: John Foust <jfoust(a)threedee.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 8:29 AM
Subject: [OT] Used Exabyte wanted
>
>I'd like to pick up a used Exabyte 85xx 8mm SCSI tape drive at a good
price.
>An 8505 would be great, a 8500 would be OK, a robo-library would be nice
>at a nice price. I'd rather buy from someone I "know" than from eBay.
>
>- John
>
Packaging, and packagin engineering is expensive. If you take a close look
at those Packard-Bell or other US-made computers sold in the US, you'll see
better packaging that what's common in home-built/assembled computers.
Unfortunately, the better packaging accompanies a computer built with the
necessary offsetting quality in the "guts" which is a shame.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Thursday, August 19, 1999 8:23 AM
Subject: Re: No good stuff. [was Re: imsai 2]
>>At 12:32 AM 8/19/99 -0400, Glen wrote:
>>less margin. The bottom line is it costs $20 to get _anything_ substantial
>>from a korean factory to your local computer haus.
>
>
>What I'm curious about is why these korean products must be "crap". It
>doesn't take much skill to make a case or to make and test a power supply.
>
>On the other hand, these crap cases are getting bought up like hot cakes
>because there's nothing better, and there's no reason to make them higher
>quality. That's modern c(r)apitalism for you...
>
> And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much?? Switches:
>22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. FP=$100. Maybe I have a
>warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was expecting a lower number.
Multiply the above numbers by a factors of 1.5 or so, and you're about
in the right ballpark (though the real factor is much closer to 4 for
the power supply - $50 won't buy anything but a way-too-dinky transformer.)
I did a similar calculation when deciding whether I could sell my "TIMSAI"
as a commercial product, and came up with a street price for it (with
very similar production costs) that would have to be close to $2000-$3000 to
justify the effort.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Hello, all:
I had several conversations with Tom Fischer over the last few
months. And I can understand the underlying premise of introducing a "new"
old computer to, IMHO, capitalize on the wave of nostalgia and the desire to
move down the power curve a bit.
I would have no problem buying a new-old machine. I understand,
though, that it's not an "as-issued" original, but a newly-manufactured unit
based on original engineering drawings with some enhancements. Yes, it's not
original, but, hey, it looks great from the front!
I don't necessarily agree with the use of a PC power supply, but
that feature makes it easy to add PC peripherals such as hard drives,
floppies, or CD-R drives, should the need arise. My concern would be using
legacy S100 cards on a new power buss. And this step-up regulation scheme
concerns me. Why not just use a transformer from Stancor???
My other concern is cost. For $999, one gets a bullet-proof case,
new terminated, large, partially-filled backplane, a snazzy front panel, and
a power supply of dubious quality. No boards. Nothing. Non-functional, but
pretty.
And, could the "mainframe" actually cost that much?? Switches:
22@$5=$110. PS=$50. Backplane=$75. Sheetmetal=$250. FP=$100. Maybe I have a
warped idea of what this stuff costs, but I was expecting a lower number.
I have some old S100 cards to play around with, but I only have a
non-working Northstar Horizon. So, I would be Tom's target audience. I would
prefer a kit, though, since I have the skill level and interest to assemble
one myself.
Also, Imsai-2 is vaporware.
Conclusion: although I want an IMSAI badly, I don't think that I'm
prepared to spend $1k for an out-of-the-box non-functional machine. If I
were buying an "old" non-functional IMSAI, at least I could restore it to
functioning status. I wouldn't pay $1k for that one, either.
Rich
--------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Cini
Vice President
Congress Financial Corporation
1133 Avenue of the Americas
30th Floor
New York, NY 10036
212-545-4402 / 212-840-6259 (fax)
rcini(a)congressfinancial.com
You can't always unplug it. Nowadays, the PROMs are soldered in and you
reprogram them in situ.
How does that effect your definitions?
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Dwight Elvey <elvey(a)hal.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 1:16 PM
Subject: RE: Article on old software programs (for IBM, Apple, Borland, etc)
>"Charles P. Hobbs" <transit(a)primenet.com> wrote:
>>
>> > If you said that that computer had "hardware software" I would have
>> > to kill you ;-)
>>
>> Firmware?
>>
>>
>
>Definitely firmware. You can grab it and remove it. It is
>plugged in.
>Dwight
>
>Actually My comments were narrowly aimed. the IMSAI was a far better
>example of S100 and worth copying. Only ONE change I'd do... NO MAINS
>POWER ON THE FP! Back when I'd seen one altair and a IMSAI fried by
>someone comming in contact with that. It had no business there.
You know, 20 years after I first put an IMSAI together I still reach in
them today to wiggle around the front panel and YIKES!!. I just never,
ever learn!
I never fried any hardware due to the 120VAC, just me. (Once a screwdriver
ended up in the wall.)
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
