<was being built. The fasted part was 5MHz. Therefore it would have
<probably had to run at 3MHz, and it would have been a _lot_ slower than
<doing it on the 6MHz 80286 CPU. Of course with a proper DMA controller
Nope, it was dealing with the 64k block limit and mapping. Speed isn't a
problem for the DMA controller as it only has to keep up with the device!
At that time the 8237 was still faster than most disks.
Now the keyboard interface is an 8042(or 8742) chip, it's easy to crank
the code of of them and disassemble it. the 8048 (the 8042 is a slave)
instruction set is all one and two byte opcodes and pretty simple.
Allison
I am preparing to sysgen my 11/44 system to expand the device
drivers available... specifically to get RL02s installed,
secondarily RK05s, PC01s, etc.
I would like to know if anyone reading The List has ever done this
particular operation, and if so, are there any pitfalls, booby
traps, and/or gotchas that lurk waiting to sink (more) fangs in my
tender derrier.... ?
All day today I have been tracking down a problem with my Kenndy
9100 system... it fails when writing long files, and locks up with a
'device hung or writelocked' error message.
At first I thought it didn't like the RL11 card in there, so I
de-installed that, of course no change. I believe the 9100 itself is
wanting a ramp-time adjustment... I can do it, have the tools/docs,
but the labor is enormous and I would like to avoid it for now if
possible.
Does the sysgen process write to the tape? Or just read from it
and write to the disk? The Kennedy reads fine, it's just recording
that's flaky.
This came about as I tried to make a master backup of the system
to a fresh tape.. "BACKUP" seems to work, but "copy *.* ms0:"
screws up at random places... except for once in a while when it
completes with no errors.
Any RSTS/E Sysgen advice?
Happy 4th...
Cheers
John
plz see embedded comments below.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Duell <ard(a)p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, July 04, 1999 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of)
>>
>> <This is where I'd recommend caution if you use q-bus. The schematics
must
>> <not only be available and complete, but they must be correct as well.
PAL
>> <must be fully characterized, something I've never seen in a DEC product,
>
>A lot of the time, DEC didn't copy-protect the PALs on their Unibus or
>Q-bus cards. So it is possible to get the equations out of them. That,
>combined with the schematic is enough.
>
>I have seen some DEC printests with logic equations in them. I've also
>seen one (DRV11-W?) with the PALs drawn out as gates.
>
Oddly enough, the DRV11-WA was the one board for which I saw reasonable
documentation, and it was what we used to interface to the E3-A (AWACS). I
saw no PAL equations, and, in fact, the PALs were soldered in place, so if
there were any, which I don't remember, you couldn't read them even if there
were no security bit.
>
>> Sorry, no. DEC in the handbooks provide full data, timing, and sample
>> schematics for qbus interfaces. Same for Omnibus Unibus. In that area
>
I guess I just had too little interest in DEC to notice that. Documentation
was an issue, though, and as I once mentioned, even DEC couldn't tell if two
of their machines were alike.
>
>Indeed. The PDP11 bus handbook is a very useful document.
>
>> interface (DMA capable) already there. ISA, I don't have any similar
>> concise reference for bus timing other than a few simple published
>> circuits. I've ahd to extrapolate from the XT and 8088 (and supporting
>> chips) knowledge to get things like timing and protocal for at least the
>> ISA 8bit.
>
>No, the IBM Techrefs do _NOT_ include timing diagrams, etc for the ISA
>bus. Sure you can work them out from the 8088 data sheets, etc, but the
>fact is, IBM did not fully document ISA.
>
There is a standard, however. IBM didn't create it.
>-tony
>
I wound up somehow with some extra sets of documentation for Data General
Aviion systems and DG/UX. Speak up and they're yours for 1.2x the cost of
shipping. I estimate there to be about 30 pounds of docs here, but they
can be sent Book Rate inside the US. They're physically located just north
of Seattle if there's anybody interested locally.
The titles:
Guide to AViiON and DG/UX System Documentation
Installing the DG/UX System
Managing the DG/UX System
Using the DG/UX System
Using the DG/UX Editors
Customizing the DG/UX System
Using TCP/IP on the DG/UX System
Managing TCP/IP on the DG/UX System
Managing ONC/NFS and its Facilities on the DG/UX System
Release notes for:
DG/UX for AViiON Systems, Patch dgux_5.4.2.p58
DG/UX for AViiON Systems, Patch dgux_5.4.2.p77
GNU C Compiler System 5.4 for AViiON Systems Release 2.4.5.6
X.desktop System 5.4 for AViiON Computers Release 3.5
X11R5 DG/UX X Window System for AViiON Systems Release 5.4 Release 3.00
DG/UX System 5.4 for AViiON Computers Release 3.00
The rings in some of the binders are a little iffy.
ok
r.
<>
<Well, there is a standard . . . I've never bought it, but there IS one . .
<
<Say, just an aside, your email handler seems to truncate the last characte
<at the right-hand end of the text in quoted emails. Have you ever noticed
<that? Maybe it's my email software, but it only seems to happen in your
Yep and it's great for people that send text that is not otherwise
delimited. I really hate reading 282 character long lines.
<>terminally similar) out there for copying. It takes nothing to make
<>a 16-bit output and 16-bit input board using the vector foundation board.
<
<Well, it isn't as easy if you have a PC with no expansion slots . . .
Therein lies the worry!
<What? . . . Vector? . . . you mean that outfit in Sylmar, CA? If so, I'd
<point out that they've had a few screws loose for some time. The only
Vector as in the Vector BOARD, not the computer company.
<boards they ever produced which had a sensible power and ground
<disrtribution arrangement were screwed up so badly you couldn't even use
<THEIR staking block to set the pins! Since most of my wire-wrap cards wer
Hey I didn't say they were good, only handy.
I used to have a board made locally that was really nice and worked.
Haven't used them/that in over 10 years.
Allison
<at all and will rely on USB, SCSI, and the various parallel port protocols
<to do "practical" I/O. That will be very limiting. I don't know what folk
If I had to rely on those I'd be cooked.
<will do in cases where they have measurements, telememtry, process control
<tasks, or whatever to do. The PC has never been particularly well suited
<for such tasks, since there were such meager offerings in the way of genera
<purpose I/O.
I think you need to hit the catalogs. GPIB and IO cards for process control
are quite common. I know I run a bank of ovens with a PC (AD and GP-io
card, DOS even) and a test fixture for resistive elements using GPIB and
Keithley instruments.
<legacy of 8080 signals and signal timing, even though the system usually ha
<a sensible processor which could have worked very well, there tended to be
<glitches as caused by the fact that it took maybe three signals and a
<decoder to sense a local I/O cycle, yet the bus provided six or seven, and
there in was the S100 problem...
<>Like a z280?
<>
<You must really love that chip, Allison, but yes, even that, if you wish.
<It's YOUR computer, after all, so it should be the way YOU like it.
Exactly. The reason, it run native z80 and as a result CP/M. Not many
cpus left you can hack the hardware and software on. Next toy, Z800x!
<I personally would favor the 96-pin connector (per DIN 41612) as used in
<VME, but only one, for a basic card and make it on the nominally 4.5 x 6"
<form factor of the single slot EUROCARDS (e.g. VME). That connector is mor
<reliable than card-edge connectors and it's used enough that it's relativel
<cheap. It's compatible with a 0.100" matrix so a card and a backplane coul
I happen to like the connector as well as you don't need an etched board
for proto with a etched edge connector. The board size propsed is too
small. S100 was about right for protos, save for the lost space to the
regulators and extra bus interface components.
<This is where I'd recommend caution if you use q-bus. The schematics must
<not only be available and complete, but they must be correct as well. PAL
<must be fully characterized, something I've never seen in a DEC product,
True good engineering too. However the info some of which you refer to is
burried in contracts to DEC vendors.
<and, in fact, I'd say you have MUCH less "open" information about q-bus tha
<about ISA. The problem with ISA is that the information was usually "out
Sorry, no. DEC in the handbooks provide full data, timing, and sample
schematics for qbus interfaces. Same for Omnibus Unibus. In that area
they likely were more open to people having their own boards. They made it
easy enough with books WW cards and WWfoundation cards with basic bus
interface (DMA capable) already there. ISA, I don't have any similar
concise reference for bus timing other than a few simple published
circuits. I've ahd to extrapolate from the XT and 8088 (and supporting
chips) knowledge to get things like timing and protocal for at least the
ISA 8bit.
Now, open in the DEC case does not mean you can sell board commercially
using their bus technology without permission. It does mean whats inside
is no secret and for internal use (labs or one off boards) there are few
if any restrictions. FYI: companies like Bridgeport, heath and others
used this with DEC permission not to mention the raft or board makers for
analog, and digital IO for specialized applications.
<In reality, building an I/O mux onto a current generation PC parallel port
<makes as much sense as anything. With EPP you can get up to 2MB of transfe
<bandwidth, in bursts, of course. That's not bad . . . AND you have a "real
<computer with "real" tools that's very fast and "real" cheap.
It's one way to go. I use that is it's there. also building a parallel
IO card is a trivial task as there are more designs (all the same or
terminally similar) out there for copying. It takes nothing to make
a 16bit output and 16bit input board using the vector foundation board.
Allison
While it's true that not everyone liked KALOK, I'd not be influenced too
much by the fact they're no longer with us. IMI, CMI, Miniscribe, Shugart,
and many others are gone, too. Not everyone like their products either.
You should probably determine whether these babies work before you ditch
them. They don't have enough aluminum scrap value to justify destroying
them before you know whether they work. If they do they are worth a few
dollars to you and a week of headaches, aspirin, MAALOX, prune juice, and
whiskey to the buyer. . . but it's YOUR money, and it's HIS headaches . . .
get the picture?
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Lane <kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Saturday, July 03, 1999 10:29 AM
Subject: Re: Kalok Drives
>At 12:10 03-07-1999 -0400, you wrote:
>
>>I have a pair of Kalok drives, a KL320 and a KL330 (20 and 30 Mbyte,
>>perhaps?), each on a sort of "hard card" thing for a PeeCee. The
>>interfaces are apparently made by Seagate.
>
> Kalok?! AHHHHHHH!!!!
>
> Seriously, I've had awful experiences with the few Kalok drives I tried,
>and I've heard other horror stories as well. They are known to be one of
>the least reliable drives ever made, and Kalok themselves folded some time
>ago.
>
>>I do not know what is on them, or even if they work. Any interest out
>>there? If not, I am going to scrap them out.
>
> Use them for sledgehammer practice, then send them to the aluminum
>recycler. Can I watch? ;-)
>
>
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
>http://www.bluefeathertech.com
>Amateur Radio:(WD6EOS) E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
>SysOp: The Dragon's Cave (Fido 1:343/272, 253-639-9905)
>"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own
>human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
Does anyone have a tape image with BASIC on it for the PDP-8?
On a related question, I've got a current loop adapter for my PC, this was
my interface to the PDP-8 before the ASR-33 showed up. Now I'd like to
punch some of my PDP-8 tape images, back into paper tape. What is the magic
to start print supression so that I can print with this thing?
--Chuck
Tony Duell and Chuck McMannis are thanked in large measure for
thier help. Tony and I have the same manual... for the curious,
the missing part in my 33 (and I have just spent another hour poking
around; the part has been abducted by Vintage Computer Aliens.) is
depicted in Bulletin 11848 33 [Page Printer Set (ASR, KSR, and RO)],
in Section 574-122-800TC, Page 8, figure 7.. at the bottom of the
page on the right... the part number is 180478 (Guide, Nylon)
Chuck, if you want to send me one or two of these beasts, I'll
send you copies of the official Teletype test paper tapes....
In the meantime, I guess I'll start the long disassembly
process... the platen and forms control unit has to come off, then
the carriage mechanism... what fun!
Cheers
John
<year between issue #79 and #80 but the subscription gets you "1 year (6
<issues)" :-)
<82 has been in the works for a while apparently.
<
<Robotics people do this too, publish three issues and then die because the
<didn't figure out just how darn hard it is to actually publish something. S
True, save for TCJ is many years old and back issues last I checked are
still available.
Allison
