IIRC, there are enough signals just on the single 96-pin connector which
comes on the single-sized VME (3U?) boards. It's those to which I was
referring when I advocated adopting the VME for generalized development.
I've never seen a 2nd-hand VME board for sale anywhere. The 2nd hand boards
(wirewrap types) I looked at once, were actually MB-II format, and, at junk
dealer prices were at $200 each. Here in the Denver area they don't appear
to be as available. I see SUN stuff on the junk piles from time to time,
but nobody seems to want that stuff. I surely don't need another line of
outdated computers. Now, I don't go to HAMfests, or HAM anything elses, and
I'm not into dumpster diving. That might turn up something.
Though I once sold VME wirewrap cards, I've never owned a VME-based system
aside from some SUN hardware I had about 15 years ago, which might have had
some inside. That stuff was for ultimate sale to a client, so I left my
fingers off it.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: William Donzelli <aw288(a)osfn.org>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, July 05, 1999 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of)
>> It's true there are lots of VME boards around. There just aren't many
>> cheap ones.
>
>Actually, VME boards are plentiful and cheap. I routinely see tham at
>hamfests for a dollar or two a piece. They can also be taken out of older
>Suns (the -3s and early -4s), as many of those machines are hitting the
>junkyards now. They tend to have non-Sun interface boards (SCSI, tape,
>etc..) hidden "inside" 9U to 6U board convertors.
>
>William Donzelli
>aw288(a)osfn.org
<snip>
>
>> of their machines were alike.
>
>I think you ended up with somebody clueless in DEC. I've never had this
>sort of problem with a DEC machine.
>
At the time in question, I had a client whose system required two 11/44's in
lockstep. This meant that the two boxes had to be identical in every way,
both hardware and software. DEC had a VERY difficult time delivering these
pairs. They didn't have trouble charging significantly more for two
identical machines than for just two machines, though. Instead of half a
day per rack, they often took as long as five weeks to get the job done,
several times swapping out each of the two boxes several times.
Fortunately, they couldn't charge for that. You're right, of course, in
that it implies that someone clueless was in the supply chain, but the
impression I got was that clueless was the rule rather than the exception at
DEC. Consequently, I did everything I could to specify other hardware in
the twenty five years or so in which I could do that. Many times that meant
a bill of 5K-bucks instead of 150K-bucks.
Dick
It's true there are lots of VME boards around. There just aren't many
cheap ones.
The connector doesn't define the bus standard being used. TI used a 100-pin
edge connector for some of thir 99xx development systems. Multibus-II and
VME look pretty similar. NuBUS, as Tony pointed out, certainly used the DIN
connector and used a form factor not too different from the ISA.
As I said before, you could use a modified version of whatever bus you
almost like, then call it whatever you like, but not what it specifically
isn't.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com <CLASSICCMP(a)trailing-edge.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, July 05, 1999 7:43 AM
Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of)
>>On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote:
>>>If I were using the DIN connectors, I'd get a standard out, read and
>>>understand it, and then use it, calling it VME, its rightful name.
>>>Unfortunately, I'd not be able to get a two-port serial board or a LAN
board
>>>for VME from the local thrift store.
>
>>I don't get it...are you saying that the connector somehow determines the
>>bus? An bus could in theory be compatible with ISA and use some other
>>connector, and still be ISA for the most part.
>
>I suspect that it's just Dick on one of his rants these days. VME
>boards are extremely plentiful these days, as are prototyping boards
>with the connectors.
>
>Of course, there are cases where the same connector was used on two
>different busses. The connector and card size of the Motorola EXORcisor
>system is remarkably similar to the S-100 bus (to the point where I've
>actually mistaken one for the other until I got up close and looked.)
>And the 44-conductor-edge-connector design has been used in so many
>instruments and machines that it is completely "generic".
>
>There are *many* ISA-compatible busses in use in the embedded systems
>world that use "different" connectors. Some of these are proprietary,
>meaning they're only used by one company, others are much more widespread
>(like the PC/104 bus). OK, there are some drive differenences between
>PC/104 and ISA, but that's an "improvement" for the application. See
>http://www.pc104.com/ for a PC/104 FAQ. PC/104 was originated by Ampro,
>a maker of classic computers, so I feel justified in mentioning it here
:-).
>
>--
> Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
> Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
> 7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
> Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
take a look below, plz
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, July 04, 1999 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of)
><at all and will rely on USB, SCSI, and the various parallel port protocols
><to do "practical" I/O. That will be very limiting. I don't know what
folk
>
>If I had to rely on those I'd be cooked.
>
><will do in cases where they have measurements, telememtry, process control
><tasks, or whatever to do. The PC has never been particularly well suited
><for such tasks, since there were such meager offerings in the way of
genera
><purpose I/O.
>
>I think you need to hit the catalogs. GPIB and IO cards for process
control
>are quite common. I know I run a bank of ovens with a PC (AD and GP-io
>card, DOS even) and a test fixture for resistive elements using GPIB and
>Keithley instruments.
I've written small code snippets which seem to suggest that software from
DOS can easily drive the ECP/EPP ports. I'd assume the same is true of USB,
though one would have to create or acquire it somehow. That would make it
quite task-specific.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Max Eskin <max82(a)surfree.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, July 05, 1999 5:57 AM
Subject: Re: OT: A call to arms (sort of)
>On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote:
>>>From what I understand, those will all be irrelevant by year's end, as
the
>>evolving standard for PC2000 will have NO expansion slots at all. There
are
>>already plenty with no ISA slots. My GPIB hardware is NI, and I had to
>>build my own parallel I/O hardware.
>
>Well, it's always possible to make an external USB->GPIB adapter. Of
>course, you'd be forced to use an OS which supports USB, and that
>eliminates DOS and various other small operating systems (which might be
>preferrable in many situations).
>
>--Max Eskin (max82(a)surfree.com)
> http://scivault.hypermart.net: Ignorance is Impotence - Knowledge is
Power
>
>
<A lot of Taiwanese jive, is what it boils down to. After playing around wi
<a pair of "200W" speakers today, I'd estimate about 2.5W RMS per channel.
<
<> I don't own any such speakers, or indeed, a soundcard. Never seen the nee
<for > > one...
For laughs I took a pair of the so called 60W per speakers, opened them
and put them on a 50w dummyload and measured them. They did 12W RMS at
less than .1% distortion, at 13W they were already to 1% and at 14W 5%.
The 60w number, power drawn from the wall outlet at full load!
haveing spent years in audio and analoge if the claim is power the PSU
better be BIG or its all smoke and mirrors.
<> What I am asking for is _any_ kind of justification for the modern kind
<> of watt...
it's still the same here. A Watt or power will produce a certain amount
of heat (RMS). However a non sinusoidal waveform will still drive a
load to the same peak current and voltage but the power (heating ability)
will be greatly lowered or increased. the hardest driving waveform is
a symetric squarewave. the lowest would be a for example a 1% asymetric
pulse.
<The modern watts sell speakers. Our customers like to hear "big numbers,"
<and don't have a clue as to what those numbers mean or how to verify them,
<whether it's in reference to watts, MHz, bps, RAM, cache, or disk storage.
<The box says 200 watts, and people like the look of them.
It's mostly bull, there are some testing situations for audio where
continious power (due to PSU or cooling limitations) will be lower than
peak power (short bursts). This is legit and meaningful for audio as it
does have a high peak to average power.
However physics say... if the PSU can supply 12V at 2A there is a finite
limit there and it's 24W and how you apply that to a 4 or 8ohm speaker
is still only going to yeild 24W (or less) as we still cannot create power
that doesn't exist.
My history includes designing 500W (RMS continous) per channel amplifers
and audio consoles back in the dark ages.
Allison
--- "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh(a)aracnet.com> wrote:
> Of course with some systems canablization isn't the answer
I've got this keyboard that well illustrates that point - the SX-64. I got
one cheap because the keyboard was fubared and a previous owner attempted
to repair it. Fortunately for me, I happened to have *just the keyboard*
and nothing else (equipment attraction, obviously ;-)
For those that don't know the design, the SX-64 is a luggable C-64 with
integral color CRT and 1541 disk drive. The only thing missing is a cassette
port, making certain packet radio and other external hardware useless to it.
The keyboard detaches from the front/top of the unit, connects with a 24-pin
cable (DB-25 with a keying pin) and while it has real keys for the user to
type on, is a single-sheet membrane inside with all the circuit paths and
conductive areas. More than one SX-64 is sitting around out there because
its keyboard has failed.
-ethan
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
>On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Richard Erlacher wrote:
>>If I were using the DIN connectors, I'd get a standard out, read and
>>understand it, and then use it, calling it VME, its rightful name.
>>Unfortunately, I'd not be able to get a two-port serial board or a LAN board
>>for VME from the local thrift store.
>I don't get it...are you saying that the connector somehow determines the
>bus? An bus could in theory be compatible with ISA and use some other
>connector, and still be ISA for the most part.
I suspect that it's just Dick on one of his rants these days. VME
boards are extremely plentiful these days, as are prototyping boards
with the connectors.
Of course, there are cases where the same connector was used on two
different busses. The connector and card size of the Motorola EXORcisor
system is remarkably similar to the S-100 bus (to the point where I've
actually mistaken one for the other until I got up close and looked.)
And the 44-conductor-edge-connector design has been used in so many
instruments and machines that it is completely "generic".
There are *many* ISA-compatible busses in use in the embedded systems
world that use "different" connectors. Some of these are proprietary,
meaning they're only used by one company, others are much more widespread
(like the PC/104 bus). OK, there are some drive differenences between
PC/104 and ISA, but that's an "improvement" for the application. See
http://www.pc104.com/ for a PC/104 FAQ. PC/104 was originated by Ampro,
a maker of classic computers, so I feel justified in mentioning it here :-).
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
<Why do you assume that ISA -> Intel processor? It may be something
<totally different, something that doesn't have efficient block transfer
<instructions.
Like a z280?
<I see a _lot_ wrong with the ISA signal definitions. For one thing the
<IRQs are edge triggered, active high, when any sane designer would make
<them level triggered active low (had IBM done this it would have cost
<them an extra couple of TTL chips on the PC motherboard. It would also
<have allowed the sharing of interrupts). For another thing there's no
<proper bus request/grant (multiple masters are almost essential IMHO).
So the interrupts are upsidedown and stoopid, it's useful as is none the
less. The yabut is for small systems it's fine.
<As I understand it, the aim is to make a PC (meaning something that runs
<a useful open OS like linux or *BSD) and which has 'modern' features like
<a good video card. Not to make the equivalent on an S100 system
Consider possibility number 3, something that is hybrid, having the features
of s100 like system but modern IO and a different bus.
<> known, and one doesn't need a video board right off the top. The WD1003-
<> board is well uderstood and the EIDE interface emulates that pretty well
<
<Sure. Now where do you propose getting schematics for this I/O card, and
<where are you going to get a data sheet on the ASIC that almost certainly
<appears on it. This is supposed to be _open_ hardware. This implies full
<schematics, not undocumented PCBs.
Treat the card as a functional black box. Herc, CGA and VGA video is well
enough known and the addresses are not secret. It's not a requirement to
knwo the tiny design details of the 8042 keyboard controller to get it to
give keycodes. Most of the floppies are the base 765 circuits pushed into
a chip, same for serial and IDE is not a secret. Based on what I've seen
of some of those cards the less I know the better!
Allison
Back in 1992, I purchased a few 8" single sided diskettes from someone on
the arpanet (or was it internet by then...). Anyways, these were a group of
both used and unused diskettes.
Roughly 50 of them are used, and they all are DEC software diskettes for
the PDP 11/780 or 785. The vast majority are various kinds of diagnostics.
Does someone here have a vax 11/785 and have a need for the stuff on these
diskettes?
-Lawrence LeMay
lemay(a)cs.umn.edu
