<> I was thinking that the important part of all this is just to get
<> SOMETHING started. Don't worry about all the costs of going all out to
<> create a computer museum type organization. Just start out with what yo
<> can to begin with. Even if that means a garage party every month among
<> local collectors then that's a good start. From there, people will get
Therein lies the essence of getting going. Inspired comment.
Right now Megan and I seem to be the most voluminous collectors on the
eastern MA area and we are close to each other. To get something going
needs critical mass greater than two.
Allison
<I hear there are some of the Rt 128 DEC buildings are sitting empty,
<perhaps they will give you a discount if you only run DEC equipment in them
Even more in the 495 rim, DEC vacated a lot of buildings.
Allison
That's exactly what Todd Fischer was writing about building. I certainly
hope he doesn't do it.
Those cases or, for that matter, any cases, in low volume, meaning fewer
than, say 5000 per week, would be the bulk of the cost of nearly any
computer. When you can use the most sophisticated machinery to make a
simple product, however, the cost comes back down around $3 per pound.
That's why, although I can't buy a decent fan for my power supply for under
$40, though I can buy a power supply for $35, I can buy the case, with power
supply and a fan, though still not a "decent" fan, for $27.
It's the economy of scale.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) <cisin(a)xenosoft.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 24, 1999 4:09 PM
Subject: Re: Rebirth of IMSAI
>On Wed, 24 Mar 1999, bluoval wrote:
>> Why not just build a kit w/out the case, or sell the case seperate? I'd
gladly
>> buy a kit like that and install it in a metal file cabinet. That'll cut
the
>> costs, if metalwork is that expensive.
>
>The separate sales of the case could be the big money maker! I would
>think that a lot of the clueless yuppies that overbid for them on e-bay
>would be even happier with an "IMSAI" case containing a current Pentium
>motherboard. (How many here are familiar with Excalibur cars?)
>
>--
>Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com
><A HREF="http://www.xenosoft.com">XenoSoft</A>
>
>there is info on family 1 and ps2 products. I got from a good source that the
>reason MCA was discontinued was because if the bus speed was increased in
>order to keep up with PCI, that would have started encroaching on the RS/6K
>machines.
That's an extremely confusing statement, as MCA is quite common in
many small-to-medium RS/6000's from just a few years ago. How can
MCA compete against RS/6000's when it's part of many RS/6000's?
I'm also confused by your statement that "MCA was discontinued", as IBM
continues to sell RS/6000's (both the R50 and the SP system 9076 are listed
in their February 1999 sales brochure) with MCA busses and MCA
cards and MCA peripherals.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Eric Smith wrote:
>Tim Shoppa wrote:
>> You forgot one vital component: the switches. The 7101 and 7103 series
>> switches used in the IMSAI front panel are still available new from C&K,
>> at $5-$6 each.
>Hmmm... does that include the handles?
Yep. The relevant part numbers for the switches are C&K 7101-J4-Z-Q-E
and 7105-J4-Z-Q-E.
>Are the correct colors available?
C&K was the OEM for the IMSAI switches, and the colors will match what
your IMSAI switches looked like when new. (If you've had yours
exposed to sunlight, it's possible that the colors have faded.)
NKK makes a very similar line of switches, but the colors are very
slightly different.
>My IMSAI switches are all intact (and factory-original AFAIK), but it wouldn't
>hurt to get some spares.
If you only need a few, Jim Willing is the guy to buy them from. When
I was building TIMSAI's, I needed a few hundred and got a considerable
price break by buying from a C&K distributor.
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
In a message dated 24.3.1999 15:57:21 Eastern Standard Time,
lwalker(a)mail.interlog.com writes:
> > Over the weekend I acquired some interesting PS/2 machines: a PS/2 P70 386
> > portable, and a PS/2 Model 95 XP 486 server. This was my first experience
> > with the PS/2 family, and I was pleasantly surprised. From what I
remember
> > when PS/2s were new, the media savaged them, mainly due to high price and
> > the incompatibility with all existing ISA cards, RAM, etc.
> >
> > I was impressed with the build quality and design of the machines (the
> > power supply in the M95 XP486 for example: undo one butterfly screw and
> the
> > whole thing swivels out, allowing easy access to the drive bays) and with
> > the ease of configuration of Microchannel cards - better Plug and Play
> than
> > with many peripherals on Win 9x machines.
> >
> The PS/2 is one of the lines I collect. They were a remarkable machine.
> Unfortunately IBM goofed in charging exhorbitant liscensing fees for the
> MCA which gave birth to the EISA consortium. I have an 8530 (XT model),
> 8557 (386,SCSI and fast UART), 8560 (tower 286), 8570-A21 (386, my fastest
> at 25mhz with coprocesser and cache) , 8580 (386, introduced PS/2 MCA line
> and VGA (on planar), tower, built like a tank-my favorite) and several
> spares.
> Want a P70 and 95 to fill out the line.
> MCA was PnP before it became a "feature" The major drawback is the
> availability and price of the cards. Virtually all the PS/2s were easily
> disassembled.
>
> > Some questions:
> >
> > 1) Why did Microchannel fail so completely? From a user point of view it
> > seems quite nice.
> >
> MCA, EISA, and the price. The 8580 sold for $10,000 bare. It's still used
> quite
> extensively in the corporate world tho.
>
> > 2) Can MFM or IDE drives be used with an ESDI controller, or do the
drives
> > have to be ESDI drives?
> >
> As others have mentioned ESDI is ESDI, but cards are available for IDE or
> SCSI.
>
> > 3) Anybody know if the 486DX33 on the processor board can be replaced
with
> > an Overdrive chip to make it at least a 486/66; or, does IBM still run
> > their parts depot in Boulder for old machines?
> >
> IBM still supplies but as in all things IBM at hugely inflated prices.
> There
> are several alternate sources which the "MCA Mafia" on the PS2 newsgroup
> can apprise you of.
>
> > 3) I'm having some trouble with the P70. Originally, it wouldn't boot at
> > all. I ran the diagnostics from the Reference Disk, and all tests were
> > passed. I re-ran the Auto Configuration with no errors. I installed PC-
DOS
> > 6.3, and formatted the built-in HD at the same time. Everything seems
fine,
>
> > but the system won't boot from the hard drive alone. If I boot with a
> > floppy in the drive, I can access the HD and run programs off of it. But
> > without a floppy, nothing works. Any ideas?
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
>
> There was a discussion regarding this recently (and earlier) on the
> newsgroup.
> Some models have info re set-up on the HD, and if you erase this when
> fomatting
> there are certain steps you must do to reinstall the reference info. Can't
> remember the details but the "MCA Mafia" are quite helpful. You could also
> check out Peter Wendt's site to see if there's anything regarding this
> problem.
>
> http://members.aol.com/mcapage0/mcaindex.htm
>
you can also visit IBM canada at:
www.can.ibm.com/helpware/vintage.html
there is info on family 1 and ps2 products. I got from a good source that the
reason MCA was discontinued was because if the bus speed was increased in
order to keep up with PCI, that would have started encroaching on the RS/6K
machines. Also, MCA was expensive because extensive development had to be done
to every card. Every MCA option/device was GUARANTEED to work. None of this
plugandpray stuff.
supr 'love my PS/2s' dave
At 11:08 AM 3/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>The messages by some of the participants shows that they really do not
>understand [or perhaps do not want] the concept of a free market. What they
>really want is a highly imperfect market so that they can buy things at low
>prices even though there are people around who are willing to pay more
>[given the presumption that all sellers will sell to the highest bidder
.....
Well said.
>But, perhaps a better way would be for E-Bay to create a new class of
>"Bonded Buyers and Sellers",
Sounds a lot like a high feedback rating to me...
>in which E-Bay has credit card numbers from both buyer and seller, and both
>buyer and seller have agreed to binding arbritration by a 3rd party
[E-Bay].
except that that opens eBay up to a lot of legal responsibility that
they're probably quite happy to avoid.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
At 11:34 AM 3/20/99 -0700, you wrote:
>the belief that no one will outbid that value, and then abort the
>transaction after the auction ends. This gets the auctioneer paid at the
>seller's expense, yet costs me nothing. Next month I use a different email
>account to identify myself, and all's well with eBay.
Actually, if the item doesn't sell (bidder backs out) the seller doesn't
have to pay eBay. And it does cost you something -- negative feedback on
the old account and no feedback on the new account. Destroys that sense of
trust everyone is so fond of. (And I seem to recall someone mentioning
that eBay requires a credit card if you're coming from one of the free
services.)
BTW, everyone pisses and moans about eBay in regards to classic computers,
but they forget that you *can* get really good deals on other types of
collectibles through eBay. (I've gotten deals on: cookware, donald duck
stuff, miniature land rovers, buttons, etc.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
>You mean things like GT40 lunar lander, which is (IMHO) a classic game...
I have the source for that... a copy of the source that Max.B and I
hacked on years ago (1976/77) to get it working on a pdp-11/40
based VT11/VR14... I think it is more up-to-date than is available
on the web... I'll have to track it down...
There were some changes we had to make for a different clock (KW11-P)
and adjusting some values on the intensity of some vectors which hit
by the light pen...
Megan Gentry
Former RT-11 Developer
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com |
| Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com |
| Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' |
| 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ |
| Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
| (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
At 05:15 PM 3/19/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Yes, an open market WITH MECHANISMS IN PLACE TO ENCOURAGE THE RAMPANT
>ESCALATION OF PRICES BEYOND ANY REASONABLE ASSUMPTION OF "FAIR MARKET
>VALUE"! Look me straight in the eye and tell me that you think the way
>ebay structures its service does not lead to unreasonable price
Are you referring to something eBay does specifically, or to auctions in
general? If the latter, you need to go a little further back in history
than eBay to place blame.
>The price an idiot decides to pay for a certain something does not and
>should not define what the rest of us should have to pay!
No, but it does define what an opportunist can expect other idiots to pay.
And until there are no more idiots, there will always be opportunists
waiting in line to separate them from their money.
>Without ebay, do you honestly think that people would be regularly paying
>$3,000 for Altairs and IMSAIs? Of course not! Take ebay, remove their
>silly auction mechanisms, replace them with a basic best-offer paradigm
Sure they would, but they would be doing it through small ads in the back
of InfoWorld, Wall Street Journal, The New Yorker, etc. And instead of
ending up in the hands of someone like Alex (no offense, Alex!) who
actually knows what they are and will preserve them, if not actually use
them, they would end up on Mrs. Rittenhouse's coffee table being used as a
magazine rack.
If you don't believe me, take a look in the back of the NYer, Smithsonian,
etc. and you'll see all kinds of artifacts listed for sale as decorative
items. (Things like carousel horses, radios, old sewing machines, gas
station pumps, etc.)
>Appreciate sure, but based on rational, measurable attributes. But to be
Everything appreciates in value *solely* based on the quantity available,
number of people who want it, and the ability of the current owner to
contact as many of the potential market as possible. If I've got the only
fliggleblaster in the world, and there are 200 people who want one, the
value will go up *if* I can get in touch with those 200 people. If
instead, I look at my fliggleblaster and think "Geez, look at this old
P.O.S., nobody would ever want this" and stick it back on the shelf, its
value is nil. Likewise, if I post it on eBay, and exactly 0 people in the
world want one, it won't sell for even a cent. But, when you can get in
touch with buyers, and they're actually interested, then your value goes
up. The more buyers, the more uncommon the item, the higher the price.
That's why auctions have been around for centuries.
All eBay does is put sellers in touch with potential buyers. (And yes,
people know the word "Altair", but that simply affects the number of people
interested; it's not eBay's fault.)
>There is hoarding going on by individuals hoping to cash in years from now
>when they expect this ridiculous craze to hit a fevered pitch. At the
>rate we're going, if this keeps up then nobody will be able to afford
>anything older than 1990, and that will be a god damn shame.
There was a guy (whose name escapes me at the moment) who advertised in all
the papers that he would pay an exorbitant amount of money for a particular
coin (and yes, I should know the details). No one ever found one; he knew
that all 5 examples were already accounted for. But, it got people looking
at their pocket change, and offering him other old/interesting coins. He
built quite a business out of it too.
And I know a number of people who regularly take trips to Mexico, the
Philippines, etc. looking for antiques that they buy dirt cheap, bring back
to the states, and sell for outrageous prices to collectors and decorators.
As long as there are idiots out there... All you can do is kill all the
stupid people. (Or, kill all the greedy people, but they reproduce faster
than you can make bullets. Hmmm... For that matter, stupid people
reproduce even faster. Sorry.)
>them). But when people realize that there is an alternative, they may
>forsake ebay altogether in preference to a more sane environment like a
>buy/sell/trade board. You WILL build a loyal following eventually and you
You will build a loyal following of eBay sellers who buy stuff cheap from
you and sell it for $$$ on eBay. Duh. Sure, sell me an Altair for $50,
and watch me fidget and squirm as I try not to parlay that into a new
bathroom because of "principles".
>That's a silly statement. Of course you see no alternatives because no
>one yet has dared tried to build one. Instead of being discouraging, its
Um, actually, there is an alternative, and Marvin has mentioned it once or
twice. Build a reputation and those that are not simply after $$$ will
give their computers to you. There's nothing you can do about the guy who
wants $10K for his vic-20 and not a penny less, but the guy who wants his
beloved Sharp PC-5000 to have a good home may just send it to you for the
cost of shipping.
As for collector-to-collector trades, there is a medium for that as well,
and you're looking at it.
>Ebay has done nothing but to cut out the footwork for the lazy people,
>and charge them a premium for it.
Ta-da! And there you have it. The secret of getting rich.
--------------------------------------------------------------------- O-
Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad
roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know."
Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates
San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/
