test-drb November 1999

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

211 participants
749 discussions

by mbg＠world.std.com

> >> "PDP-10 Processor Handbook", dated 1970 and describing the KA10; > >> "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook", same vintage, describing monitor > utilities and such; > >> "DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Programming", dated 1972 (? unsure, > and the book isn't here with me right now), describing KA10 and > KI10 and some programming utilities (MACRO, DDT, Loader, etc.) > >These are all phonebook-style manuals, printed on newsprint, and are all >beginning to fall apart - the paper has turned yellow/brown, and some of >the pages are starting to crumble like dry leaves. I have exactly the same books... >Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least, >have their disintegration slowed down)? I'm inclined to try to scan them >in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would >require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books >immediately. Can anyone suggest any other preservation methods? Thanks for asking this... I'm interested in the answer as well... I also think that they would be destroyed by the attempt to scan. So the question becomes, Are you attempting to preserve the actual documentation, or the information contained within... I'm not sure which direction to go myself... but at least in one or two cases of the above (and other -10 manuals), I have a copy which *could* be damaged to scan it in if I were to decide to do it... Megan Gentry Former RT-11 Developer +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+ | Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL | Internet (work): gentry!zk3.dec.com | | Unix Support Engineering Group | (home): mbg!world.std.com | | Compaq Computer Corporation | addresses need '@' in place of '!' | | 110 Spitbrook Rd. ZK03-2/T43 | URL: http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | | Nashua, NH 03062 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler | | (603) 884 1055 | required." - mbg | +--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

24 years, 10 months

Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers andTOPS10???

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Aaron Christopher Finney <af-list(a)is1.wfi-inc.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 7:02 PM Subject: Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers andTOPS10??? > > >On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Chuck McManis wrote: > >> At 03:31 PM 11/24/99 -0500, John B wrote: >> >Don't Grrr me guy! If I even tried to keep every mini I get every month my >> >wife would divorce me or we would go broke on storage costs. >> >> Well there is a difference between scrapping it and offering it to someone >> on the list who might be willing to take it whole and keep it running. I >> suspect that was what the "grrrring" was about. Its even ok to say, "This >> is what I think I can get from 'ebay souvenirs" and if anyone wants to >> match it they get first dibs." >> >> This crowd is partial to keeping things running, > >To be fair, many of us don't even get one substantial mini a *year*, let >alone one (or several!) per month! I am at what appears to be the lower >end of the collecting-voracity continuum (at least for this group!), and I >still have trouble finding places to put all my stuff. And my wife is >constantly at the brink of "fed-up" with my pitiful little lot and >day-long roadtrips to pick up more "junk." > >Additionally, it's a lot of work to negotiate the pickup/delivery of >large, heavy, difficult-to-ship things as well. Not everyone has the time >and energy to do that...even as a labor of love. > >I applaud John for the work he puts into the restoration of the systems he >does keep and for the time and effort he puts into sharing it with others >(great web page). He obviously has an interest in classic computers that >goes beyond how much gold or aluminum is contained within. > > Thanks Aaron. I will continue to post lists of boards and minis as I get them in the hope people here can restore a unit they might have. >Aaron > >

24 years, 10 months

LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Rodrigo Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 5:32 AM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) >>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> writes: > > Richard> This is starting to resemble an argument for putting > Richard> things on eBay before scrapping them. If they're > Richard> priceless, then someone will at least attempt to buy them > Richard> for somewhat less than that implies. > > The "priceless" stuff was an illustrating metaphor. I didn't >say minis are priceless. Usually the "price" of a good is determined >by the demand/offer situation of the market. Minis are cheap because >the demand is so low: isolated collectors, when they have space to >store it. These collective market is so dispersed that does not affect >the market prices. Ya right, I look a leave of absence so I can go out and buy minis for 2 cents a pound and resell them for 5 cents a pound??? Quite a few more people want minis than you think, at least the older ones ('60s) that they first touched... and it is not uncommon to get $20,000 or more for such a unit (depending of course on the number of them left). The collective market greatly influences the prices of such minis... and bidding usually occurs. Yes, a Vax 11/780 will get you a scrap metal price... an IBM1401 (unrestored) will fetch an easy $20,000 (a lot more if you put the word out). I restore them and ship them running with software and docs, the value goes up a lot more than that. > > But smart scrappers can be smart enought to bargain higher >prices, when they are certain they are facing collectors. Take for >instance antiques: they are expensive just because of the high demand, >it's fashionable to have antiques. And who knows, sometime in the >future, a VAX board becomes an expensive antique... In fact, some >computing stuff is almost "priceless", for instance, ENIAC >boards. Would you scrap an originl ENIAC the way you scrap Fujitsu >minis? No you would not, unless you were brainless... Any computer as You can't compare Fujitsu to ENIAC.. The Fujitsu is *not* an original... There are probably at least 10,000 of those *originals*. >old as the ENIAC is a priceless asset to any museum! Right? > > Right, and those are the kinds of systems I am aiming for (well, I won't get an ENIAC.. but UNIVACs can still be found). > Richard> If nobody wants 'em badly enough to pay the packing, > Richard> shipping, and associated costs, plus the scrap value > Richard> then, since it's too late to leave 'em inthe scrapyard, > Richard> they need to be disposed of in some way, don't they? > > Yes indeed. It's not trivial to ship huge minis across the >world. That's one reason why these mailing lists exist: e.g. to >announce the availability of certain stuff in certain areas. I'd love >to have a PDP or a VAX, but I know that's virtually impossible unless >they appear in Lisbon/portugal area... > > Cheers, > > >-- > >*** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt> >*** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda >*** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: >*** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa >*** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL >*** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585 >

24 years, 10 months

Grrrrrr

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 3:45 AM Subject: Grrrrrr >>> Grrrrrr. >> >>I agree with you, Dave- it seems that recently there's been a surge of >>"this or that computer is junk, it's only worth scrap for metals content. >>I'll enjoy scrapping this one" As I recall, indiscriminate bashing of any > >This is an iceberg kind of thing, 90%+ of old computers are going to the >shredders, or just as bad sitting in some deteriorating environment. 90% of >the rest is getting dismantled for parts, and only a tiny number are being >kept "operational". > >My attitude is that you can love the forest, and still build a wooden house >with a fireplace. > >The way to save old systems is to hunt them down and buy them. Offer 7 >cents a pound and you might win every scrap bid in the country. Want to >stop a system from being scrapped, three words are all it takes, "I'll buy >it". > > You got it. That's why I am listing what I am getting here so people *have* an opportunity to get something they would probably never find. I just hope I don't have the same bad experiences local companies/scrappers have had with hobbyists in the past. Bottom line... if you want a Vax 11/780 you'd better be willing to shell out the money to have it professionally shipped or pick it up with a *real* truck. >

24 years, 10 months

Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers andTOPS10???

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Enrico Badella <enrico.badella(a)softstar.it> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 3:15 AM Subject: Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers andTOPS10??? > >Aaron Christopher Finney wrote: >> >> To be fair, many of us don't even get one substantial mini a *year*, let >> alone one (or several!) per month! I am at what appears to be the lower >> end of the collecting-voracity continuum (at least for this group!), and I > >In Italy it is even worst. Companies prefer scrapping than giving to >hobbyists. All you can find are shitty 386 junk Same thing here.. And do you want to know why???? They are tired of hobbyists wanting to know *everything* about the unit they are about to buy.. and then if they finally do decide to buy it most show up in a mini van! Further, companies want a Comp. number so they are not responsible if I get hurt on the premesis. The last thing in the world companies want to deal with is a hobbyists... they want someone to come in, bid on weight, and pick up the load professionally and quickly. No grief.. > >e. > >======================================================================== >Enrico Badella email: enrico.badella(a)softstar.it >Soft*Star srl eb(a)vax.cnuce.cnr.it >InterNetworking Specialists tel: +39-011-746092 >Via Camburzano 9 fax: +39-011-746487 >10143 Torino, Italy > > Wanted, for hobbyist use, any type of PDP and microVAX hardware,software, > manuals,schematics,etc. and DEC-10 docs or manuals >========================================================================== >

24 years, 10 months

LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

24 years, 10 months

LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)

by yoda＠isr.ist.utl.pt

>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Erlacher <edick(a)idcomm.com> writes: Richard> This is starting to resemble an argument for putting Richard> things on eBay before scrapping them. If they're Richard> priceless, then someone will at least attempt to buy them Richard> for somewhat less than that implies. The "priceless" stuff was an illustrating metaphor. I didn't say minis are priceless. Usually the "price" of a good is determined by the demand/offer situation of the market. Minis are cheap because the demand is so low: isolated collectors, when they have space to store it. These collective market is so dispersed that does not affect the market prices. But smart scrappers can be smart enought to bargain higher prices, when they are certain they are facing collectors. Take for instance antiques: they are expensive just because of the high demand, it's fashionable to have antiques. And who knows, sometime in the future, a VAX board becomes an expensive antique... In fact, some computing stuff is almost "priceless", for instance, ENIAC boards. Would you scrap an originl ENIAC the way you scrap Fujitsu minis? No you would not, unless you were brainless... Any computer as old as the ENIAC is a priceless asset to any museum! Right? Richard> If nobody wants 'em badly enough to pay the packing, Richard> shipping, and associated costs, plus the scrap value Richard> then, since it's too late to leave 'em inthe scrapyard, Richard> they need to be disposed of in some way, don't they? Yes indeed. It's not trivial to ship huge minis across the world. That's one reason why these mailing lists exist: e.g. to announce the availability of certain stuff in certain areas. I'd love to have a PDP or a VAX, but I know that's virtually impossible unless they appear in Lisbon/portugal area... Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt> *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585

24 years, 10 months

Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

I told a factory I did not want this stuff last year (I forgot about this PDP-10). It seems they never got around to scrapping it and the scrapper out of Georgia never picked it up. I got a call just now to see if I want the load for .. (well $$). I don't know if the PDP-10 is still in it... They wrapped the cases in cardboard and moved them to *stores*. I was told that there are at least 18 6' computer racks,, the only ones that the guy on the phone could get at said: Vax 6000 SA600 ??? (what's that?) RK05 (or 7) TU81 Some Fujitsu junk. I know they paid 5 million for the Fujitsu 7 years ago. Anyone here know what a SA600 is? As for the systems, I will probably scrap the Vax6000 (for EBay souvenirs). I saw one of the Fujitsu boards last year.... nice... most of the chips had heat sinks on them (ram board).. and they were huge.. Again too new and too big to deal with.. I'll get what gold I can out of it. The PDP-10 is the only thing worth restoring (if it's still in there). Will update everyone by the end of the week. john

24 years, 10 months

LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)

by yoda＠isr.ist.utl.pt

You sound like someone who burns paintings just because you don't have space to store them, regardless from being priceless Picasso's... It's not very hard to understand the following facts: - the majority of this list subscribers are collectors, which means that they like collecting certain stuff. - everyone understands the difference between "storing" and "collecting". It's impossible to prevent all minis from the planet >from being destroyed -- store all obsolete minis. However, collectors are available to save a necessarily small percentage from destruction, by collecting them. They do this because they *love* it. - the average storage capacity of collectors is usually not very high. Not everyone is able to own a VAX, and those who are, can't hold more than 1-2 of such machines. Now compare this storage capacity with the rate you get minis (you said about 40-50 a year). - you can't expect to come here saying "I crush 40 minis a year" without people becoming upset. I guess it breaks the heart of every collector (at least it breaks mine...). Cheers, -- *** Rodrigo Martins de Matos Ventura <yoda(a)isr.ist.utl.pt> *** Web page: http://www.isr.ist.utl.pt/~yoda *** Teaching Assistant and MSc Student at ISR: *** Instituto de Sistemas e Robotica, Polo de Lisboa *** Instituto Superior Tecnico, Lisboa, PORTUGAL *** PGP fingerprint = 0119 AD13 9EEE 264A 3F10 31D3 89B3 C6C4 60C6 4585

24 years, 10 months

Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Dave McGuire <mcguire(a)neurotica.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 4:23 PM Subject: Re: Made a deal to get a Vax 6000, 2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10??? >On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, John B wrote: >>I was told that there are at least 18 6' computer racks,, the only ones that >>the guy on the phone could get at said: >> >>Vax 6000 >>SA600 ??? (what's that?) >>RK05 (or 7) >>TU81 >>Some Fujitsu junk. >> >>I know they paid 5 million for the Fujitsu 7 years ago. > > ...likely not junk. They make some kickass supers. I wonder if that system >is complete. It is complete. I saw it in the computer room when they had it running (I bought the system it replaced a few years ago!). I know the computer ran fast and had *loads* of memory. The problem they had was their own employees did not like using it. They ran it less than 4 years. > >>Anyone here know what a SA600 is? > > It's a rack full of RA-series drives. > Ahhh, I should have remembered that! , thanks... I guess more weight :-( .. This Vax 6000 was in the lab so it had quite a few toys hooked up to it (hopefully some good boards to rip out of it). >>As for the systems, I will probably scrap the Vax6000 (for EBay souvenirs). >> >>I saw one of the Fujitsu boards last year.... nice... most of the chips had >>heat sinks on them (ram board).. and they were huge.. Again too new and too >>big to deal with.. I'll get what gold I can out of it. > > Grrrrrr. > Don't Grrr me guy! If I even tried to keep every mini I get every month my wife would divorce me or we would go broke on storage costs. I hope someone out there can use the boards in their minis.... > -Dave McGuire >

24 years, 10 months

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test-drb November 1999