test-drb November 1999

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

211 participants
749 discussions

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow <aek(a)spies.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 11:52 AM Subject: Re: Grrrrrr >"Most collectors want: > >The first computer they ever touched (that's where I come in) >An old transistor mini >Maybe a PDP-8/11.... > > Most others aren't worth the cost of shipping. >" > >Fine, but if you scrap a machine, try to at least get the documentation and >software to someone that can use it. Many times these items are separatated >from the computers as they're being disposed of. These items are much smaller >and are also practical to ship, and are vital to restoring the other machines >around the world that haven't been parted out. > I am actually doing that for you Al. I have you wish list and will send documentation to any system on your wish list.. Most companies trash the software and docs as normally scrappers don't want it or the company feels it can't legally hand it out. (I feel another Boo!, Hiss coming but I can't keep every manual either): I don't throw out any documentation I get with systems even if I do scrap them...but my dad likes to heat his home with wood and so I give him surplus manuals to start his woodstove/fireplace.

25 years

UNSUBSCRIBE CLASSICCMP Stephen Jensen

by jensens＠mcs.net

Hope I'm doing this right. I need to unsubscribe from this mailing list. It generates too much traffic for me and I can't keep up.

25 years

LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)

by aek＠spies.com

"We've got quite a few sets of eyes and ears sensitive to looking for minis on this list, not just micros --including folks with close connections to scrappers-- and there are relatively few alerts raised as to 780 or 750 (and other big iron mini) availabilities vs. your contention many types are common. " A friend of mine in Milwaukee has an 11/780 he'd like to sell, if anyone near there wants it. It will be a non-trivial de install, though (it's in a basement). If someone is serious about this, I can forward his phone number / email adr.

25 years

Your message to ClassicCmp

by aek＠spies.com

"The PDP-6 in question is coming back to the History Center by December 20 (this year) as part of a.donation by Compaq which is clearing out a little-known warehouse TCM used for deep storage." Do you happen to know if any documentation or software was stored there? There was just a discussion on alt.sys.pdp10 that it appears that all of DEC's PDP-10 software archives disappeared, and I'm hoping they MAY have ended up there, maybe other software as well (people were unable to locate 18 bit software, for example).

25 years

LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)

by allisonp＠world.std.com

<That's life. I *really* find it hard to understand why scrapping a Vax <11/780 would break your heart when there are probably at least 100,000 lef <in mills out there... and no one wants them! As a collector I'd think you'd at least know the numbers produced and the current population. 11/780s have actually become quite scarce being 20 years old, slow by even microvax standards and power hungry. I'd bet finding more than one or two would be less than easy. The question is, do you know if it's common or scarce? Allison

25 years

Your message to ClassicCmp

by spicer＠computerhistory.org

At 06:07 PM 11/24/99 -0500, you wrote: >It is possible that something happened prior to your tenure... I can think >of one report which has been much discussed at times on the alt.sys.pdp10 >newsgroup -- the dismantling of the pdp-6 gifted to the computer museum >by Stanford. Since you are in a position to know... did this in fact >happen? The reports have the flip chips from the machine being sold >as trinkets. Hi Megan, My understanding of this issue is that the PDP-6 modules sold at the Museum store were found in boxes in a DEC warehouse. At the same time, TCM removed a piece of the '6 from display, leading folks to conflate the two events, inferring that the pieces being sold were from the one on the floor. The PDP-6 in question is coming back to the History Center by December 20 (this year) as part of a.donation by Compaq which is clearing out a little-known warehouse TCM used for deep storage. I hope you will find this explanation satisfactory and that we can put this issue behind us. I apologize on behalf of the Museum and History Center that we perhaps did not communicate well with you and other enthusiasts about the machine in question. It took some time to reconsruct an event from a long time ago. If you have specific concerns about other machines, please let me know. I am eager to address cogent criticisms of TCM (the past) or the History Center (the present & future) at any time and to work with you all in advancing the state of the art in computer preservation--we have many unique problems that are fascinating to think about and solve, ones that everyone can contribute to remedying. [snip: re visiting the west coast] >>2. Get involved! The Center belongs to the community that supports it >> and we have dozens of important tasks (both real and virtual) that >> need to be done and that can draw on the talents of everyone. Drop me >> a line if you're interested. > >Great if you happen to live nearby... but what can one do from the >east coast to help? Plenty! We have many "virtual volunteer" opportunities. One of the greatest needs is to transcribe computer history lecture for the web. This is of tremendous use to scholars because it is a searchable version of the lectures we hold with some of the computer industry's most important contributors. Past speakers have included: Bob Noyce, Jay Forrester, Grace Hopper, Doug Engelbart, Maurice Wilkes, Seymour Cray--an amazing list that covers 20 years of computer history! For a typical transcript, have a look at: http://www.computerhistory.org/events/sage_05191998/index.page Also, these transcripts are soon to be supplemented by RealVideo/RealAudio/MP3 media streams of the lecture. We have posted Godron Moore's lecture from last month on-line as an example: http://www.technetcast.com/tnc_program.html?program_id=54 Might this appeal? >>3. Visit our website (www.computerhistory.org) and offer suggestions or >> curate a virtual exhibit! Our site receives well over 2 million hits >> a month--what a way to get the word out about computer history! > >I like that idea... what if your site linked to the private sites of >numerous collectors (take a look at my own site, for example). We hope to have a "Links" page within the next 60 days. >>4. Have your own sites linked to (or even archived) by the Center as a >> way of bringing attention to your specific area of interest. > >You're ahead of me... what do you mean by archived? I would think that >private sites would be kept up by the owner... One of the concerns we have at the Center is that while there are superb computer history sites out there run by individuals, there is no institutional architecture for ensuring that they can continue past the sponsor's lifetime or (much more likely) even five years. As you know, some of these sites are simply superb and irreplaceable resources whose loss would be gravely felt. If we take the geological timescale into account (50 years for computers!), there is a real concern that such wonderful resources might no longer be maintained after some finite amount of time. I think you'll agree this is a pretty reasonable conclusion. Consequently, the Center would like to host (perhaps 'park' is a better word? -- since we would have no content oversight whatsoever) high quality sites in computer history allowing these sites to make use of the Center's stable infrastructure (including regular backups, &c.) We haven't worked all the details yet--for example, how to handle updates and so on. If anyone on the list would like to serve as a test case, please contact me and we can experiment! > >Thanks for taking the time to write to the list... > > Megan Gentry > Former RT-11 Developer All the best Megan--thanks for caring! d. -- Dag Spicer Curator & Manager of Historical Collections Editorial Board, IEEE Annals of the History of Computing The Computer Museum History Center Building T12-A NASA Ames Research Center Mountain View, CA 94035 Tel: +1 650 604 2578 Fax: +1 650 604 2594 E-m: spicer(a)computerhistory.org WWW: http://www.computerhistory.org <spicer(a)computerhistory.org> PGP: 15E31235 (E6ECDF74 349D1667 260759AD 7D04C178) S/V 516T Read about The Computer Museum History Center in the November issue of WIRED magazine! See "The Computer Hall of Fame - Modern Art." pp. 276 - 299.

25 years

LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Christian Fandt <cfandt(a)netsync.net> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 12:18 PM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2 Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) >Upon the date 10:47 AM 11/25/99 -0500, Allison J Parent said something like: >><That's life. I *really* find it hard to understand why scrapping a Vax >><11/780 would break your heart when there are probably at least 100,000 lef >><in mills out there... and no one wants them! >> >>As a collector I'd think you'd at least know the numbers produced and the >>current population. 11/780s have actually become quite scarce being 20 >>years old, slow by even microvax standards and power hungry. I'd bet >>finding more than one or two would be less than easy. >> >>The question is, do you know if it's common or scarce? >> >>Allison > >Allison has hit right on the mark in reply to your suggestion there's 100k >or so 11/780's still out there, John B. How can you say there are that many >when we hear of only even a few more recent vintage 11/750's coming >available for example?? I would wager 750's had been more common in their >day than 780's were for various reasons. Were there even 100k 11/750's made??? > >We've got quite a few sets of eyes and ears sensitive to looking for minis >on this list, not just micros --including folks with close connections to >scrappers-- and there are relatively few alerts raised as to 780 or 750 >(and other big iron mini) availabilities vs. your contention many types are >common. > Obviously not, If you have eyes and ears out then your home, storage, family relative homes , local school, and probably a few hundred thousand square feet of local storage would be filled *right now* with large minis... Let me tell you what was available *this* month: Ketchikan Pulp and Paper Ketchikan AK, USA Rack fulls of Accuray electronics containing Honeywell? minis. At least 32 cabinets of electronics (over 10,000 pounds). You must take them all and go through the liquidator. (This site has probably been chopped up already). Thorold Pulp and Paper Thorold, Ontario 4 old mills are being scrapped. 8 Honeywell Minis and PDP-11/05s are there. Well over 30 cabinets of electronics holding the minis. You *must* take everything. I know the stuff is still there. and I am taking them for the Honeywell 316s.. Needless to say I am shredding 28 bays of electronics. Simpson Paper Company Eureka CA, USA Again entire mills with *massive* amounts of minis. These guys use minis for industrial control... Don't know if they are still there... not going to fly out and find out.. May have been junked already. That is about 30,000 pounds of just industrial control minis available JUST in the pulp and paper industry available right now!. That does not include all the administrative systems, labelling minis, etc...... As ACCURAY is the standard for paper mill systems you can expect 1 mini/mill + 1 backup mini/mill (depending on age it gets worse)... and you have *one* basement full of minis??? and no calls for minis lately??? I won't even try and list the number of steel mills upgrading right now (in Ontario) or the number of them scrapping their minis.... I can pull 10-15 minis/year out of the steel sector in Ontario alone/year. You can also expect *most* sectors to upgrade their systems every 5 years and store the stuff until they have time to get rid of it... The *small* factory I am going into to pull these out have owned well over 30 minis over the last 25 years... multiply that by the number of steel mills in Ontario and you get an idea what I am talking about. WHY AM I GOING INTO THESE PLACES??? Sometimes I get lucky and find an old 1960's mini that was never thrown out, sitting in storage. It happens more often than you think. I will now be flying out to some mills to look for the old minis as the value has increased enough to do so. I have throw out/passed up over the past 7 years: IBM1130 - E.L. Crossley High School. refused IBM1401 [boat manufacturer] (won't refuse those anymore) Vax 11/730s (2) Honeywell 316s (5) [paper mills] - thre out another one this spring.. running. PDP-11/40s (3) -- just awful minis. PDP-8e (at least 2), PDP-8L, PDP-8Ms, as, etc... (won't throw these out anymore either) IBM System 32s (school boards used them.. tossed them out) MAI Basic 4 (Hydro upgraded and got rid of them.. 1 per CITY!) refused 3 Vax 11/780s this year PDP-11/70s (too many to list - Pennington Clothes, Hayes Dana, Ontario Asset Disposal, and others I can't recall right now) PDP-11/05s (every paper mill with accuray has at least 6 of them) .........and just too many others to recall... Some of these were at auctions... not including the ones I got calls about but refused. >Case in point: at present I have up for adoption a VAX 11/750 which is the >first one of these in months that I really recall seeing available. A They commonly get sent to the shredder.. Even PDP-11 enthusiasts don't want them due to their size and power requirements. Most Metlabs have them and have been tossing them over the past 3-5 years. Microvaxes are a lot more *spouse* friendly but if you notice they don't even fetch more than $300 each/system on EBay. Hence, most people will see that and decide not to pick them up in the first place. >fellow presently is interested but timing and distance for him to come get >it is presently an issue and storage co$ts related to it are becoming an >issue for me. I do *not* want to scrap it and part it out as it was a >*running* system when I bought it amongst a truckload of other DEC gear. >I'm a preservationist and really want to see it go to a collector who can >have a running system. However, I'm off the beaten path for big iron >collectors to readily come for it and there is a risk nobody can get it >whole. Therefore there's a risk that a big iron VAX may die as a system. > I don't like to see that either.. but there is only so many minis one person can hold. >With that, it makes me seem like the "heartless" type who would scrap a >working machine just to make room around here and I *don't* like that >feeling one bit. Then I recall with shivers up my spine that if I had not >discovered the availability of the truckload of DEC gear I bought, the >original owner who had it would have proceeded to call a trash hauling >company the next day to take it all away so he could clear out his >ex-company office ASAP and fly back to his home in California. So at least >I am able to have offered it plus other surplus DEC gear to everybody here >plus save out a big batch of stuff which gives me a rather decent DEC >collection. > >Yeah, well I see John B's point in simply scrapping a machine to a >_limited_ extent. In my mind that doesn't quite forgive unilaterally >deciding to scrap a collectable machine, or even a more modern interesting >machine like the Fujitsu, just because "they are common" or "too big", etc. >Just let us know and and encourage us to pass the word around. There may be >potential computer homes out there we don't know of. But if not, at least >the thing has been given a chance to live. > I plan to do that. That's why I am posting the info here. >I guess collectors have to try to keep doing the best they can in spite of >logistics . . . > >Regards, Chris >-- -- >Christian Fandt, Electronic/Electrical Historian >Jamestown, NY USA cfandt(a)netsync.net > Member of Antique Wireless Association > URL: http://www.antiquewireless.org/ >

25 years

Grrrrrr

by aek＠spies.com

"Most collectors want: The first computer they ever touched (that's where I come in) An old transistor mini Maybe a PDP-8/11.... Most others aren't worth the cost of shipping. " Fine, but if you scrap a machine, try to at least get the documentation and software to someone that can use it. Many times these items are separatated >from the computers as they're being disposed of. These items are much smaller and are also practical to ship, and are vital to restoring the other machines around the world that haven't been parted out.

25 years

LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Merle K. Peirce <at258(a)osfn.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 11:42 AM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE > > >On Thu, 25 Nov 1999, John Foust wrote: > >> We should be thankful we collect things that fit in rooms. The farmer >> across the road collects tractors. I think he's got 20 or so filling >> his pole shed, packed as tight as sardines. > >I know some fellows that collect Mack trucks. they bought a factory to store >the unrestored ones, and filled in the empty space with flathead V- Ford >trucks. Compared to that sort of thing, those big Vaxes don't seem that >big. After all, to a large degree things are relative. A Universe or a >Dual is large compared to ZX-81, but small compared to a PDP-9. Computer equipment *must* be stored without moisture and be maintained at a certain tempature to retain any kind of value at all. I can't sell rusted boards... Climate control, dehumidifiers are expensive in large factories.. (if not impossible). Mack Trucks have a much higher resale value than any 10 Vaxes together I know... It's also relative to *what* it is... john > >M. K. >Peirce Rhode Island >Computer Museum, Inc. 215 Shady Lea Road, North Kingstown, RI 02852 > >"Casta est qui nemo rogavit." > > - Ovid > >

25 years

LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???)

by dylanb＠sympatico.ca

-----Original Message----- From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Thursday, November 25, 1999 10:51 AM Subject: Re: LET'S RESOLVE THIS ISSUE was (Re: Made a deal to get a Vax6000,2Fujitsu Supercomputers and TOPS10???) ><That's life. I *really* find it hard to understand why scrapping a Vax ><11/780 would break your heart when there are probably at least 100,000 lef ><in mills out there... and no one wants them! > >As a collector I'd think you'd at least know the numbers produced and the >current population. 11/780s have actually become quite scarce being 20 >years old, slow by even microvax standards and power hungry. I'd bet >finding more than one or two would be less than easy. > >The question is, do you know if it's common or scarce? > That's easy Allison. I have refused three Vax 11/780s this year so far the went to the shredder... I don't know how many more in the spring I refused as I was not taking any more systems from factories/liquidators[ things were slow]. Now that I have a site on the Internet and a presense on this list.. I have a pile of wish lists, requests, orders, etc... and I now have 1 person out of a few hundred that is willing to purchase 1 Vax 11/780 *just* over my scrap cost. *All* the others aren't interested. No one else wants them... and many factories kept them in *stores* when they were finsihed with them as most don't bother even scrapping the stuff. I generally figure out current population by the number of requests I get to pick up a model of a mini. Also, I look at what the collector community is looking for. Further, I have yet to find a Museum even willing to pay a *scrap* price for such a unit (let's not even talk about shipping costs). BTW: This company has put a request to their board for $1.7 Million to remove all the rest of the minis by spring and replace them with an NT system. I will no doubt be getting a call to pick up more Vaxes (already saw 2 11/750s - Uggggggh), a Mentor mini (business basic running inventory), and a pile of other minis I have not seen yet. I do know I will be getting a pile of ASR-33s... no idea why they held onto them. If you have items you are seriously looking for please-mail me. I won't be dragging everything to the shop. john >Allison > >

25 years

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test-drb November 1999