There certainly were a few vendors whose systems were as much off-center as
the N*. Just take a look at Vector Graphics' systems, for example. I once
owned a couple of those, with their memory-mapped video refresh memory.
They were another box which didn't have enough TPA to run the output
generated from, say, the MT+ Pascal compiler in a unit with a contiguous 64k
RAM.
As I wrote before, the problems went away with the later releases of various
compilers, but while prejudices are easy to acquire, they're difficult to
eliminate.
N* had their own version of a DOS, IIRC, and perhaps that's what made their
management believe they didn't need to offer an efficient and
CP/M-compatible product. Myself, I could never recommend a system which
didn't read/write the standard distribution media for is native OS.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Allison J Parent <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Sunday, October 31, 1999 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon
><Well . . . here we go . . . the fact that N* memory mapped their FDC was
on
><thing that clearly would fall in the MISTAKE category. What the reason fo
><the existence of the smaller TPA resulting from memory mapping anything is
>
>the TPA bit was something I could care less about. The memory mapped
>design was functional, not pretty. Of course the first controller I'd
>built was IOmapped not for more space but because it was easier to decode
>8bits rather than 16. Was it the right way for them, not really but it
>worked. there were plenty of other memory mapped designs that were not
>nearly as nice. It's the way it was right or wrong. So happens I have
>two and one replaced my altair. It was a damm sight better and reliable
>depite two lightiing hits. The only design fault I sought to fix was
>the lack of storage denisty, 80k per drive was far from enough. The later
>controller and software was an improvement but hard sector was a problem
>as it was not even remotely portable. The processor card and the IO on
>the backplane was however very nicely done. Like many I used third party
>ram mostly because I'd alreay had 32k of SEALS 8k static from the altair.
>I still do not ahve NS* ram for the odler box, I'd put in a Compupro
>Ram-16 back in '84 to get rid of the six 8k static and a 16k static.
>Such is the evolution of just one system.
>
><of no relevance. It was a justification for SOME of us, me included, to
><draw a line through their products whenever they appeared in a list. Of
><course their price would have been another.
>
>It was their price that made them attractive. Least on the east coast.
>Some systems like CCS I'd never seen until a few years ago. Others were
>a bit rich price wise or questionable vendors.
>
>Allison
>
red bear said:
>> (tony said)
>>
>> I know that some cards will work in both the Apollo and normal PCs..
>
>Tony, you've hit the nail on the head. The Apollo ISA bus is a real ISA
>bus.
Oh frabjous day! :-)
>However, most ISA cards will not work in the machine for one of a number
>of reasons:
*snip* ROM incompatibility, *snip* OS support,
>
>Theoretically it would be possible to make any arbitrary ISA card work in
>an Apollo if one were to write his own device drivers and software to use
>that driver. This driver would have to use no calls at all to the BIOS
Ingo Cyliax built a 68030 workstation, and he wrote the
drivers for (a specific) VGA and IDE.
Also, Linux has drivers for PC cards, and doesn't use the ROMS.
That's why I asked if it would be sacrilige for me to rip out
(and keep safely, of course) the drives and display cards, etc.
I've since learned that the BIOS contains a monitor, so no
hassles there. Of course, the first thing I did (before
powering up the machine) was to copy the EPROMS (27256 for
3000, 27512 for 3500). I'll put it up for ftp sometime.
(My ftp philosophy is, if the owner complains, I'll take it
down immediately)
>The /ASE has floppy, ESDI, and SCSI interfaces. Don't expect to be able to
>boot the Apollo from a SCSI disk, or even to use one at all unless you are
The FAQ sez that the SCSI interface doesn't support disks at
all. But I hope to boot from the tape... I mean, I don't
have any floppies, 'smatter fact, the "server" (3500) has the
tape and the "workstation" has the floppy.
W
Wouter de Waal wrote:
>The 3500 has the following:
>
>9988 rev 3 memory card (no idea of it's size)
>3com ethernet card
>9016 (RGB video adaptor)
>WD7000 scsi/hdd controller
The WD7000 is an ESDI controller
>tape drive
>unknown
>
>Unfortunately I don't have the RGB cable or the monitor.
>
>Questions:
>
>* Can I use the mono display adaptor in the 3500? Can I run one
> of these boxen without a display card, or do they check like
> peecees?
>
>* How ISA compatible is the ISA bus? Can I stick a VGA card in
> there and expect it to work (OK, I know I'll have to write
> the code (port the VGA BIOS) but I mean electrically? Or
> an IDE controller?
>
The bus is completely incompatible with the PC ISA bus. Nothing is likely to
work.
>* Where can I find memory maps, circuit diagrams, whatever?
>
>* How rare are these beasts? I gather they're common? Any
> objections to me ripping out all the cards and the boot
> rom, sticking vmebug in the socket, and an IDE drive in
> the bay, and playing with the thing?
>
I have one I found complete in a dumpster. There were many color monitors
with it but I only took one because they are so huge. It didn't have a
monitor cable with it but I have one from a Decstation that works OK. They
run a unique OS called Domain which I don't have. Mine has a 300meg ESDI
drive and a tape drive. I've had mine up as far as looking for something to
boot from.
Hans
It won't be long before it comes down to MYLEX, whose raid products work,
and ADAPTEC, whose raid products don't.
Of course, the DPT controllers worked and that didn't keep adaptec from
buying them up, and Symbios/NCR controllers worked fine, yet ADAPTEC bought
them up. Wouldn't it be cheaper for ADAPTEC to make products that work
instead up buying the companies that do that?
Once upon a time, ADAPTEC made really good products. I know, I have some of
them still working, e.g. 1542A boards, 1522, 1510's. All my 2940's are
broken, and my 3940 only "sorta" works. Now, I set up DPT and MYLEX raid
interface hardware at my ISP a couple of years back, and it hasn't hiccupped
even once. That's half a dozen servers with a combined storage volume of
over a TB, all RAID-5 . . .
Too bad . . .
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Lane <bruce.a.lane(a)boeing.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 10:46 AM
Subject: A sad day for DPT...
> Heck, a sad day for storage overall! Adaptec has swallowed up yet another
>customer-friendly SCSI adapter maker. See:
>
>http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1003-200-1425979.html?tag=st.ne.1002.thed.1003-
2
>00-1425979
>
> While not directly related to classic computing, I know a lot of us use
>more modern systems for numerous duties, and I know I can't be the only one
>using DPT's 'legacy' products from the early 90's. Anyone care to wager
>what Adaptec will do to DPT's well-stocked FTP site, or their support of
>said legacy gear?
>
> Adaptec, from what I can see, is getting dangerously close to turning into
>the Micro$haft of the SCSI adapter world.
>
> (Kai, if you're reading this... I'm sorry. I know you work for MS, and I
>want you to know that I don't hold it against you in any way, but I think
>everyone on the list knows how I feel about Billy-boy and his Evil Empire).
>
>
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>NOTE: The views expressed are mine alone, and do NOT necessarily represent
>the views of the Boeing Company, its management or employees.
>Bruce Lane, Boeing Aircraft & Missiles, PWSSG Computing
>DC Campus, 9-98.2, Col. N11 (206) 655-8996
>laneb(a)bcstec.ca.boeing.com OR http://bcstec.ca.boeing.com/~laneb
>
Now, I didn't say anything about simulation. I suggested a couple of ways
of making hardware which emulates the "real McCoy" in that it plugs
something other than the original MFG's proms into the sockets. How you get
there, or how you proceed afterward is not defined.
True, if a simulation hosted on another machine satisfies you, the job is
trivial by comparison with getting the old dinosaur to breathe. It's all a
question of what it takes to trip your trigger.
The fact remains, however, that one could either install copied EPROMs into
the sockets, or, in those cases where the EPROMS are no longer readily
available, build some sort of hardware-compatible substitute. I merely
suggested that one form of HARDWARE emulation, which is more than just
substitution of one piece of hardware for another, might be to use those
"smart-socket" parts from Dallas Semi and stuff them with RAM which could be
written in some way as yet TBD prior to their installation. I've got some
UK-made 15-year old 2kx8 battery-powered RAMs which still work. They're an
option, though there are others which are somewhat less bulky.
The latter substitution seems to me to be a far cry from simulation on a
different computer.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Ford <mikeford(a)socal.rr.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 2:29 AM
Subject: Re: EPROM issues, who can burn?
>>1) if the goal is to have an "authentic" system, one has to have the
>>authentic EPROMs with the binary images in them. The spec's for
programming
>>pre-32-pin eproms were not kept secret.
>>
>>2) if the goal is simply to have a working system, there are several ways
to
>>get around the ancient EPROM oddities. All of these involve wiring and
>>maybe even soldering something. The easiest of them, however, is to build
>>an adapter board with the binary images residing in battery backed rams
>>intended for substitution for EPROMs, and a simple programmer for them for
>>those situations when things go wrong.
>>
>>3) Now comes the hard part . . . You have to choose.
>
>Thats simple, if emulation will make you happy, why stop at the eproms,
>just run one of the emulators for the whole system on your PC. My goal is
>to get old systems running at a low cost, and I think that means original
>or functional equivalent parts.
>
>
In a message dated 11/1/99 10:09:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rhudson(a)ix.netcom.com writes:
> On 10/31/99 18:35:52 you wrote:
> >Most likely a generous soul will step forward and offer a set for postage.
> >I hope to one day have all my stuff set up so that i could easily answer
> >just such a request myself.
> I wonder if any of those disks (system esp.) and manual are copyright and
> if Apple cares. Anyone know if Apple still can provide?
> >
> >OTOH you know a lot of the old software doesn't need another floppy with
> >DOS etc. on it to run. You boot from the "game" disc and its all on that
> >disc. The system discs are for utilities, formatting new floppies, etc.
>
> I have found 1 game disk that will boot the machine and play several
> "Racing" games but I also don't have paddles (pinouts and parts anyone???)
> aren't paddles just 100ohm pots?
>
> I want to do some programming in BASIC on a simpler machine than my laptop.
> I have an emulator too is there a way to copy the images from the emulator
> to the real machine?
>
> Thanks all!
contact me off list and i can set you and/or anyone up with apple disks.
DB Young Team OS/2
--> this message printed on recycled disk space
view the computers of yesteryear at
http://members.aol.com/suprdave/classiccmp/museum.htm
(now accepting donations!)
I think those paddles were 100 K-ohm pots!
Be careful!
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: rhudson(a)ix.netcom.com <rhudson(a)ix.netcom.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: Apple ][ + but no Floppies
>On 10/31/99 18:35:52 you wrote:
>>Most likely a generous soul will step forward and offer a set for postage.
>>I hope to one day have all my stuff set up so that i could easily answer
>>just such a request myself.
>I wonder if any of those disks (system esp.) and manual are copyright and
>if Apple cares. Anyone know if Apple still can provide?
>>
>>OTOH you know a lot of the old software doesn't need another floppy with
>>DOS etc. on it to run. You boot from the "game" disc and its all on that
>>disc. The system discs are for utilities, formatting new floppies, etc.
>
>I have found 1 game disk that will boot the machine and play several
>"Racing" games but I also don't have paddles (pinouts and parts anyone???)
>aren't paddles just 100ohm pots?
>
>I want to do some programming in BASIC on a simpler machine than my laptop.
>I have an emulator too is there a way to copy the images from the emulator
>to the real machine?
>
>Thanks all!
>ron
>
Hans said:
>>WD7000 scsi/hdd controller
>
>The WD7000 is an ESDI controller
As well as a SCSI controller for the tape drive.
The controller in the 3000 is an OMTI-8, looks like MFM.
>The bus is completely incompatible with the PC ISA bus. Nothing is likely to
>work.
Yikes! So why did they call it an ISA bus? Just to get my hopes
up, I'm sure.
>monitor cable with it but I have one from a Decstation that works OK. They
>run a unique OS called Domain which I don't have. Mine has a 300meg ESDI
I have some tapes, lessee, from the top of the box,
017062-001 Rev 00 CRTG_FTN_1 FTN V10.7 M/V10.7.MPX
013736 Rev 00 CRTG_PHIGS_1 PHIGS Ver 1.0
017287-001 Rev 00 CRTG_STD_SFW_1 System release ver SR10.2
017286-001 Rev 00 CRTG_SFW_BOOT_1 System release ver SR10.2
017287-003 Rev 00 CRTG_STD_SFW_3 System release ver SR10.2
017287-002 Rev 00 CRTG_STD_SFW_2 System release ver SR10.2
and third party, Auto-trol Technology CREATED JANUARY, 1989
Part No.: 100-74067-003 Rev.:00030B
S7K ENCRYPTION KEY MEDIA, APL
RELEASE 3.0 LMPI 0303
CARTRIDGE 1 OF 1 ECN: A4222
Wouter
BTW, can someone please forward digest 940? Our upstream
provider lost an argument with a bulldozer, line was down
for most of two days...
