-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Hustvedt <mhustved(a)umich.edu>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: VMS architects
< much snipped >
> Cutler wasn't the only key person behind VMS; the other was Dick Hustvedt,
> who was evenrtually injured in a traffic accident pulling out from DEC's
> driveway onto Spit Brook Road and ended up on permanent disability with
> short-term memory loss. A friend in the VMS group said that Hustvedt, not
> Cutler, was responsible for much more of the tricky, nifty stuff in VMS.
> But the survivors get to write the history.
> "There Ain't No Such Thing As Justice." -- Larry Niven
I think you're confusing :
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch - Robert Heinlein? with
TANJ - There Ain't No Justice - Larry Niven, "The Long ARM of Gil Hamilton"
Mark.
That was my point, exactly. One shouldn't have to hack a new machine in
order to make it what one wants. That's doubly true when you can buy what
you want for less and not have to hack it.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon
>Allison wrote:
>> My solution was far more reasonable. Map it <VDM1> at 4000h and set a bit
>> to enable it (small hack). That way it used no TPA space and was still
>> faster than using a TTY. I later set up one of the NS* controllers that
>> way for a full 64k space. Of course I had to write my own drivers but it
>> was pretty trivial.
>
>And hack the RAM board to be disabled when the VDM1 is enabled?
OZIX was the operating system for PRISM, one of several 32-bit RISC
architectures that DEC was developing at one point. When it was canned,
Dave Cutler once again threatened to walk, and DEC took him up on it.
Anyway, later, DEC was anxious to get Windows/NT for Alpha, and so signed
an agreement before they saw the code that everything in there belonged to
Microsoft and that they had no claim to it. Afterwards, some people still
at DEC pointed out that their initials were still there in the edit history
and that they'd been had. Cutler was quoted in some article as saying that
DEC could have had it but now they'll have to pay to get it. Bill Gates
was reportedly pretty upset when he saw that article.
(There are also stories about Windows/NT device drivers; if you want
drivers for hardware you're selling to be included on the NT distribution,
you have to sign over *all* rights to the driver code to Microsoft. I
don't know if any hardware manufacturers consider their drivers to contain
code which gives them a competitive advantage over other hardware
manufacturers; if there are, they have a tough choice.)
But IMHO, without Microsoft behind it, the operating system would not have
gotten too far beyond the VMS market anyway. And it gave DEC leverage to
get Microsoft to support Alpha and outsource some support work to DEC.
The system services (the layer under the Windows API) are a whole lot like
VMS. That makes the WNT ones a lot easier to use for those who used the
VMS ones.
When the C++ standards committee started up, Windows/NT wasn't announced
yet. Microsoft's rep was insistent that exceptions be resumable, as they
are in VMS. I had fun (seriously, for some reason I enjoyed it) taking the
position that VMS did it that way but C++ shouldn't. (I had tried to use
VMS exceptions in a VLSI CAD application and it was a major pain. I tried
prototyping the same thing in C++ and it looked like a pain on paper. And
it turned out that they only important places they were used in VMS were
printing messages with context information [and a subroutine could walk up
the stack to do that] and returning to the debugger [and a subroutine could
do that, although there might be some protection ring stuff to finagle
too]. Plus, POSIX Threads - descended from DECthreads - had chosen the
non-resumable model, and so my orders were to try to get C++ to follow
suit. The interested can see Bjarne Stroustrup's "acorn book" for an
account of the others who opposed resumable exceptions on the grounds of
more extensive usage in real projects (incl. TI, Xerox).
Cutler wasn't the only key person behind VMS; the other was Dick Hustvedt,
who was evenrtually injured in a traffic accident pulling out from DEC's
driveway onto Spit Brook Road and ended up on permanent disability with
short-term memory loss. A friend in the VMS group said that Hustvedt, not
Cutler, was responsible for much more of the tricky, nifty stuff in VMS.
But the survivors get to write the history. "There Ain't No Such Thing As
Justice." -- Larry Niven
--- Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com> wrote:
> "Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote:
> > The OLD Pre-Unisite (model 2900 ??) programmer from DataI/O...
>
> You're thinking of the model 29 (and 29B). They've been out of support
> for quite some time, and they recently removed the last technical info
> (such as family and part codes) from their web site.
Does anyone have this info? I have an old programmer under the bench that
I have check, but ISTR that it's a model 29. It was purchased in the early
1980's to program 6309 256x8 PROMS (the same kind that are on the Apple ][
disk card) for an early MC68K design. I got it over 5 years ago to
support those very same cards but have never used it. For my typical EPROM
stuff, I have a PeeCee-based programmer with a 40-pin socket in a D-to-A box
that programs most stuff up to 1Mbit, both logic and memory devices. I use
it to blow GALs for my Amiga product.
To solve the data-in problem, I've got the programmer in a Commodore Colt
w/8003 NIC and I use Kermit over TCP/IP to move data in and out. It's not
as portable as an integrated ROM blaster would be, but it works great for me.
-ethan
=====
Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February.
Please send all replies to
erd(a)iname.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
That's why I recommended the moderate "hack" that amounts to building a
circuit with cheap and available substitute(s) and make adapter cable(s) to
the various place(s) where such substitution will be needed.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Eric Smith <eric(a)brouhaha.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 11:50 AM
Subject: Re: EPROM sideline
>"Richard Erlacher" <edick(a)idcomm.com> wrote:
>> The OLD Pre-Unisite (model 2900 ??) programmer from DataI/O was what I
used
>> many years ago to program both the 5203 and the 1702. Surely they
haven't
>> entirely skipped those in the course of moving to the UniSit?, or have
they?
>
>You're thinking of the model 29 (and 29B). They've been out of support
>for quite some time, and they recently removed the last technical info
>(such as family and part codes) from their web site.
>
>> Unfortunately not. The UniSite is a good machine, and since it's
>> pin-driver technology could probably be made to do it, but Data I/O never
>> developed an algorithm for the 1700 series parts that I'm aware of.
>
>I'd be *very* surprised if the pin drivers came anywhere close to being
>able to suport the 1702 or 5203, or some of the very early exotic
>PROMs. The Unisite was designed to support mainstream parts being
>produced in the mid 80s, none of which required voltages above 25V or
>below ground.
>
>A friend just picked up a Unisite for $200. I've been looking for a good
>deal on one for 13 years, but I don't ever seem to find them. The closest
>I got was about four years ago; AT&T capital was selling one for $800
>and I might have been willing to buy, except that it had already sold
>the day before. Sigh.
>
>Data I/O recently (within the last few years) started putting some kind
>of 80 MB removable data storage device (disk? flash?) in their model 2900
>and 3900 programmers. When will they get a clue and put a friggin
>Ethernet interface on them? Geting bits into the programmer has always
>been their weak point. Their async serial ports are too slow (even
>at 115.2 Kbps) for dealing with modern EPROMs and flash parts. On the
>models with floppy drives, you'd think that sticking in a floppy with the
>data would be fast, but no, they've managed to make that ridiculously
>slow as well. Maybe they think this will get customers to buy more
>programmers from them: "Hmmm... for this product I'll need to burn
>sets of eight 32-megabit flash parts for each version of the software.
>It will take three hours each for the download. I can spend three work
>days for each version, or buy eight 2900s and do it all in three hours."
>On the other hand, Hanlon's razor says "never ascribe to malice that which
>can be adequately explained by stupidity."
The OLD Pre-Unisite (model 2900 ??) programmer from DataI/O was what I used
many years ago to program both the 5203 and the 1702. Surely they haven't
entirely skipped those in the course of moving to the UniSit?, or have they?
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Lane <kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Monday, November 01, 1999 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: EPROM sideline
>At 18:39 01-11-1999, Dave Dameron wrote:
>
>>Can you program 1702A's?
>
> Unfortunately not. The UniSite is a good machine, and since it's
>pin-driver technology could probably be made to do it, but Data I/O never
>developed an algorithm for the 1700 series parts that I'm aware of.
>
>>How about the similar National part 5203? Both are
>>256 Byte EPROM's. There was also a Motorola part, 6834(?).
>
> Neither one is listed on my device chart, so I would have to say no. Sorry
>about that. The problem is that Data I/O keeps information about how to
>actually program the UniSite's innards a closely-guarded secret, so I have
>no way to even try to cobble something together.
>
>
>-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies
>http://www.bluefeathertech.com // E-mail: kyrrin(a)bluefeathertech.com
>Amateur Radio: WD6EOS since Dec. '77
>"Our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our
>own human terms. It cannot, in any way, define any of them..."
It might work better if you use an unused gate or some such. Phantom often
has numerous loads on it, so you could consider a pair of OC gates if
they're available. Otherwise, a SCHOTTKY diode should suffice, since its
forward voltage isn't enough to confuse any other device into missing the
LOW on the PHANTOM line.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Sudbrink <bill(a)chipware.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 3:06 PM
Subject: RE: S-100 phantom (Was: RE: Northstar Horizon)
>> > So My Compupro RAM16 (64k static) in the NS* (system A) has all banks
>> > enabled and if we hit e800H the FDC forces phantom/ and the ram16 is
>> > deselected for that address.
>>
>> Ah... I see... Now, the 4FDC does not have any connection to
>> pin 67, so it is not using phantom. But it should be easy to
>> implement... Can I just take the /CS (-NOT- chip select) pin
>> from the 2708 and wire it to 67? Maybe I need to -NOT- it first?
>
>Exercising a little more brain power, I see I'll need to put a
>diode in there to keep someone elses phantom from activating this
>PROM.
Any info on these mature computer components?
I was looking in a stack of pallet sized boxes at the local computer
surplus and I came across a Alpha Micro 1021 computer. It appears to be
about 2' by 2' by 1.5' with a series of DB25 connectors on the back. I
couldn't move the top box to gain access to the lower box. I couldn't see
much more than the exterior.
An adjacent box had a Black Box brand case in it with two drives inside one
8" and one 5 1/4". They look like they have a ribbon connector interface to
a computer.
Another box had a HP 2392A terminal inside.
All of these boxes are covered with dirt and crud, I hope no bird droppings,
toxoplasmosis is not a disease I want to catch. I may have to take 4-5 hours
and dig through all of the boxes to see what's inside. Kind of like looking
for buried treasure, lots of dirt and crud before you find the gold.
Maybe the smart choice is to offer $20 for the lot, I think they send all of
the non PC stuff to China. Any information would be appreciated. If I don't
want/need them maybe someone else does. We can work out shipping.
Mike McFadden
mmcfadden(a)cmh.edu
Yes, there were several ways in which the N* could be modified to work
better and meet the target of providing a full 64K TPA and handling CP/M
standard diskettes.
The easiest way, however, was to use hardware from other MFG's, which didn't
require modification. It happens that hardware from other MFG's was less
costly as well.
Dick
-----Original Message-----
From: allisonp(a)world.std.com <allisonp(a)world.std.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, November 02, 1999 6:22 AM
Subject: Re: Northstar Horizon
>> The same thing was "wrong" (meaning that it irritated me and offended my
>> sense of how things should be) as with the N*, in that they used memory
>> space I wanted to use. Consequently, I never seriously used, nor did I
ever
>> promote them. It was no big deal, but at the time I thought that it was.
>
>My solution was far more reasonable. Map it <VDM1> at 4000h and set a bit
>to enable it (small hack). That way it used no TPA space and was still
>faster than using a TTY. I later set up one of the NS* controllers that
>way for a full 64k space. Of course I had to write my own drivers but it
>was pretty trivial.
>
>Allison
>
Hey Guys(and Gals)
Before it gors to the dumpster anybody want a leading edge model
DC-2011 computer w/leading edge model DR-1240 mono monitor and a OKIDATA
model U-92 MICROLINE printer will giveaway as one unit or in peices for
the cost of shipping or will get parts and boards out of the computer if
you want comes with a seagate HD not sure how big. If interested
please respond
thanx for the use of the bandwith :)
Chris Halarewich
In Castlegar BC, Canada
