> According to my numbers: AL 210 Cu 380 Ag 408 - just I have no expliciet
> temperature named (and I'm somewhat confused, since I belived that lambda
> is not depending on any temperature, but rather a coefficient(?) to
determinate
> the conductance (?) - otherwise you'd have to integrate lambda over the
> temperaturerange within the object (remember, its w/mK, where K is dT))
For really accurate studies you do indeed have to do just that. Thermal
conductivity varies with temperature in much the same way as electrical
conductivity - and is (AFAIK) similarly infinite in superconductors, which no
doubt helps in cooling them...
>> Anyway, it seems to me that the way to go is:
>> 1. Peltier chip between CPU and heatsink. Heatsink is a large block of
copper.
>
> Adds more and more heat - an infinite loop, where you have to add a bigger
> part to the 'interchange' on the hot side, hust for transporting the
Yes, but not much more. I have never seen a figure for efficiency of peltier
chips, but I have always assumed around 200%, i.e. removes about twice as much
heat as it generates. (YMMV - Efficiency varies with temperature difference)
> Peltiers own heat. I found it better to optimise the transport within the
> interchange element (as with using Cu or Ag, and mor efficient flow
> structures) than just adding a Peltier. It's not about geting the
Possibly true in a lot of applications ...
> target temperature as low as possible, but rather transporting away
> ad much (thermal) power as possible - that will inherently keep the
> target from overheating.
I have not much experience with cooling CPUs, but with other semiconductors
(mainly power transistors) I have found that the biggest thermal resistance in
the circuit is almost invariably semiconductor to package exterior. The amount
of heat you can remove depends therefore mainly on maximum allowable temperature
of semiconductor and temperature of package surface. Getting the package
surface down another few degrees will in a lot of cases more than make up for
the extra heat the peltier chip produces. It may even do so without extra
cooling on the water (etc.) side - a few degrees lower on the IC balanced by a
few degrees higher on the water may transport all the extra heet you need.
Especially if your cooling is decent (low thermal resistance) between water and
ambient.
> Also, if we just remove the heat to keep the device (and all parts)
> not below environment temperature we avoide all probems with
> condensation (word?). We don't have to isolate all cooled parts
> wathertight. Saving again a lot of recurces.
Condensation could be a problem, although it didn't seem to be in project
EUNUCH. Some sort of drying arrangement for the ventilation should be
sufficient though - this too can be done with cooling...
>> 2. Use a refrigerant cycle similar to a domestic freezer, but connect the
>> refrigerant circuit directly to holes bored in the heatsink block. No
>> intervening water circuit.
>
>> 3. Of course, keep the refrigerant radiator well away from the system, and
>> supply it with plenty of fans...
>
> Or just use water and a real _big_ radiator to expell the heat.
> After all, it's again about radiation a specific amount of
> thermal power - and this can be done by either a high delta-T
> or just a biger surface (phi = lamda * S * delta-T / delta).
Still keep the radiator well away from the system and supply it with plenty of
fans!
See above for my reasons for keeping the temperature down...
> Conclusion: I belive that a 'soft' aproach can give the same
> result in most situation without spending endless resources
> to push a single idea solution (brute force).
Perhaps. But your solution is limited by the ambient temperature, the maximum
chip temperature and the thermal resistance within the IC. For any better heat
transfer than that, you _have_ to cool below ambient. I was simply exploring
ways of doing this.
Philip.
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This may be of general interest, or if not, at least it will go into the
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some Alto file extensions
Alto file names are case-independent
.run executable file
.cm command file (executive instructions, like CP/M batch files)
.boot bootable file
.d BCPL definition file (like C .h files)
.bcpl BCPL source file
.syms BCPL symbol file
.asm Alto assembly language source file
.mu Alto microcode source file
.br BCPL binary file
.decl BCPL declarations file (same as .d)
.al Alto font file
.bravo Bravo text file
.press Press document file
.mesa Mesa source file
.bcd Mesa binary file
.image Mesa executable file
.draw Draw document file
.log Log files
.st Smalltalk source file
Since XDE is a descendent of the Alto Mesa environment, many of the
extensions (.cm .mesa .bcd) carried forward onto D machines.
>So, I have a few old manuals:
>
> >> "PDP-10 Processor Handbook", dated 1970 and describing the KA10;
> >> "PDP-10 Timesharing Handbook", same vintage, describing monitor
> utilities and such;
> >> "DECsystem-10 Assembly Language Programming", dated 1972 (? unsure,
> and the book isn't here with me right now), describing KA10 and
> KI10 and some programming utilities (MACRO, DDT, Loader, etc.)
>
>These are all phonebook-style manuals, printed on newsprint, and are all
>beginning to fall apart - the paper has turned yellow/brown, and some of
>the pages are starting to crumble like dry leaves.
>
>Can anyone suggest any ways these books could be preserved (or at least,
>have their disintegration slowed down)? I'm inclined to try to scan them
>in and OCR them to preserve the information, but I believe that would
>require me to take the pages out of the binding, destroying the books
>immediately. Can anyone suggest any other preservation methods?
Yeah, well, that's the rub. Doug Jones wrote up his efforts to
preserve of PDP-8 paperbacks, and he begins:
Once you have concluded that a paperback is beond repair,
the first step in preserving its contents
is to complete its destruction. Slice off the glued
spine of the paperback so that the pages come
apart as separate sheets. You can cut the sheets
from the spine with an X-acto knife, or you can
find a shop with a paper shear that will cut the spine loose.
Doug then goes into a very detailed step-by-step description of
producing an archival-quality duplicate of the original information.
For further details on Doug's efforts, see
http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/book/
--
Tim Shoppa Email: shoppa(a)trailing-edge.com
Trailing Edge Technology WWW: http://www.trailing-edge.com/
7328 Bradley Blvd Voice: 301-767-5917
Bethesda, MD, USA 20817 Fax: 301-767-5927
Just found the clock module: It ran at 5 Khz.
john
-----Original Message-----
From: John B <dylanb(a)sympatico.ca>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 12:35 PM
Subject: Just found schematics to a Tube Mini! 1958! WOW!
>This unit is not listed anywhere on the web and have not found it in the
>list of Digital Computers (though I can't find the page I usually look at).
>
>In going through my PDP-8 stuff I found a book called "RCL".
>
>This *mini* was built in 1958.
>
>I uses delay line memory, has a number of mini-computer functions (many
tube
>flip flops) and it's programmed with wires (i think). It has a bulb front
>panel with some program control switches.
>
>Interfaced to it was a printer and a CRT (maybe more, I am just getting
>through the memory control schematics).
>
>Its memory control system contains:
>
>Set address, decimal decoder, subtract 1, read , add, write (all
>these three have many other function control flip flops), address overflow,
>decode, print, carry, add+1, end storage...
>
>
>Address system is 8 bit. (256 bits of address space)
>
>OOOOOOOOOOOOOO.. (just flipped the page) it *does* have a core memory
array.
>(5 stages X 256 bit)
>
>OOOOOOOOOOOOoo (just flipped the page again)... It has a 16 bit A/D
>converter (tubes)
>
>(sorry but OOOOOOOOOO - just flipped the,,,,,....) it has a data register
..
>Ahhh, this is a 16 bit mini, with core (just found more core memory)
>
>Getting an instruction set here - (so far):
>
>Add +1
>Add
>Add -1 (subtract)
>Compliment
>Add with carry
>reset (jump?)
>stop
>
>
>next page - A/D unit (yikes!) many tubes.....
>
>CRT display (uses delay line memory ... I think.. if not , no idea yet)
>
>Power supply is nasty
>
>printer control modules - yuck!
>
>Okay, indicator panel (found it) has: 16 bit data bus, 8 bit address bus
>(light bulbs)
>
>Programming - weird, user has access to core memory, has "START, RESET
>switches), it has a *really weird* tube for "real time".. looks to be a
>cesium tube or delay tube... many sensors for "real time"
>
>more programming instructions:
>
>print
>clear to zero
>display
>
>
>I thought at first this unit was a counter but I see a whole programming
>area with different op codes, two types of storage and a printer with CRT.
>This should qualify as a *kind* of mini... It was meant to work with A/D
and
>D/A with some coded instructions in core memory/wires.
>
>Anyone hear of such a unit?
>
>Part of it is called "multichannel analyzer" but that is only the a/d
>subsystem. I only have the schematics so I have to figure stuff out from
>there.
>
>john
>
>
>
>
--- allisonp(a)world.std.com wrote:
> > the PDP-8/a, I can't generate discreet operations...
>
> Forget TTY, Forget OS/8, Forget the full spread of boards just the base CPU
> and memory that's all.
Then, so far, so good. As I said, it runs basic ops. The inchworm program
is about as far as I can get without custom-crafting diag routines until I
get a TTY online to read MAINDEC tapes. At the moment, all I have in the
-8/e is the CPU, an MS8-C and an M8650. I toggled in an ASCII printing
routine from the 1973 -8/e handbook (page 4-4, IIRC) and I didn't see anything
appear on the terminal nor the RS-232 traffic light. If you happen to have
a handy TTY test loop up your sleeve, then I'd love to see it. It makes it
much harder to debug hardware when you have to debug your own diagnostic
software at the same time.
I'd still love to hear why a KK8A isn't happy with the -8/e frontpanel. I
would have thought that they were compatible. The OMNIBUS isn't all that
complex. There's not a lot of room for variations.
> Make that work then add pieces. when they are good
> you can transfer them to the 8a.
Here's the problem... I can only test so much of the -8/e with only the
front panel and the docs I have (I don't have a sheaf of toggle-in diags
to try or I would). Once I put the KK8E in the -8/a box, _all_ I can do
is hit the boot switch. It doesn't boot. The KK8A sort-of boots.
There's this enormous testing gap between what I can do on the -8/e with no
ability to load in diag tapes and what I can do on the -8/a with only the OS
to boot. If I at least had an -8/a front panel, I could do some testing in
that frame as well.
> The 8E front pannel is fairly simple and a logic probe will be adaquate
> to shoot it if the switches and lights aren't enough.
Beyond a possible dirty EXAM switch, I have no reason to suspect anything is
wrong with the 8/e front panel.
A secondary question: when WPS throws up the "ABC" at the start of the boot
sequence, what happens between the letters? I have one disk that only shows
the "A" and the CPU locks up. What might that suggest?
Thanks,
-ethan
=====
Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February.
Please send all replies to
erd(a)iname.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
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Hi, all.. I've recently upgraded my microVAX II to a III and I have enough
spare qbus cards around to built another microVAX II, but unfortunently
no spare chassi.. I've scoured the general area and places like eBay and
i've not been able to track down anything, so I was wondering if anybody
had any spare BA* chassi that they would be interested in selling...
Looking mostly for BA23 chassi since they're a bit more mangable than
something like a BA123... I'd be willing to buy and/or pay shipping and
handling on any that anybody might not need.
Or, if somebody had a spare BA123 or something and lived in the south-
western to south-central Michigan area and rather excessive shipping
costs would not be an issue, i'd be willing to pick them up as well.
Thanks a bunch,
-Sean Caron (root(a)diablonet.net)
At 07:56 AM 11/24/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>http://community.borland.com/museum/
>I have to log in now, I don't remember that, but it's free anyway.
Skip the login crud:
http://community.borland.com/museum/borland/software/
>>>> Do you know where I can purchase a copy of Microsoft Visual C. I do
>>>> not wnat C++, just plain old Visual C for compiling in DOS.
http://www.emsps.com/oldtools/
Will any of these work for you?
C 203 <DIR>
C 600 <DIR>
C 700 <DIR>
CRTL 700 <DIR> (rtl for c7)
QC 250 <DIR>
QC 200 <DIR>
Lance Costanzo http://www.webhighrise.com
System Administrator Website and Virtual Domain Hosting
lance(a)costanzo.net starting at $5/month, no setup fees
--- John B <dylanb(a)sympatico.ca> wrote:
> Ethan Dicks <ethan_dicks(a)yahoo.com> wrote:
> How is your 8/e restoration going?
>
> john
cf other message, but I know several things _are_ working: the bulbs, the PSU,
both MS8-C cards, at least 90% of the KK8E board set. At the moment, I can't
verify proper serial operation so I can't load diagnostic tapes. I have two
boards - M865 and M8650. I have a homemade (tested) RS-232 cable for the
M8650 and a 20mA cable missing the black Berg housing (Mate-n-Lok on one end,
crimped on gold pin contacts on the other - no 40-pin connector body). The
M865 has a 12" cable and a Mate-n-Lok 20mA connector on it, but I can't find
my box of TTY cables (to hook up my VT220 to it). I still have this pr/s01
20mA portable papertape reader, but I still know nothing about it, especially
baud rate. I haven't yet hauled a 'scope out to the place the -8's are at.
That's one of the next steps.
-ethan
=====
Infinet has been sold. The domain is going away in February.
Please send all replies to
erd(a)iname.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com
http://community.borland.com/museum/
I have to log in now, I don't remember that, but it's free anyway.
I was going to suggest this, but I thought I might have been seriously wrong
about the Visual C thing....
-Mike
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Withers <bwit(a)pobox.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 6:56 AM
Subject: Re: MSVC
>Version 6 was interesting in that it was both DOS and 16 bit OS/2. Version
>7 was the first version of C++ and was for DOS/Win16 only. I think version
>8 was the first version to carry the "Visual C++" label.
>
>To the original poster, if Quick C is what you are looking for email me, I
>think I have a couple around here. If Borland Turbo C would do as well you
>can download versions 1 through (I think) 2.5 from the web. I've misplaced
>the URL but perhaps some kind soul here will provide it.
>
>Regards,
>Bob
>
>At 07:42 PM 11/23/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>You're probably thinking of Microsoft Quick C for DOS.
>>It had a "low-resolution" (character) graphics interface
>>and was available for DOS as well as Windows 3.1.
>>If you search the Internet for surplus software sites,
>>you might find a copy around; I seem to remember seeing
>>some sites in the past that had older stuff like this,
>>but I don't recall exactly where.
>>
>>If you are comfortable with a command-line interface,
>>Microsoft C Version 6.0 was probably best version of
>>Microsoft C before Visual C++ (Version 8) came out.
>>
>>Dave
>>
>>Bill Farmer wrote:
>>>
>>> Do you know where I can purchase a copy of Microsoft Visual C. I do
>>> not wnat C++, just plain old Visual C for compiling in DOS.
>>
>>
>
>
