>>>>> And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to
>>>>> be backed up.
>>>> Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem
>>> On paper tape, of course. It's reliable (I've never found a tape that
>>> can't be read), human-readable, and the automatic readers are simple
>>> enough to be repairable...
>> Jep. Good choice - I still have some paper tabes from the mid
>> 70s in fine condition - but I also know (remembering the past)
>> how fast they break...
> Paper tapes can be spliced if they break (did I mention I had a splicing
> jig and tapes here...). An a good reader shouldn't break the tape anyway.
> As an aside, paper tape holes are at 0.1" spacing. You can make a
> useable splicing jig by soldering a row of pins to a piece of stripboard
> (say at 0.3" spacing), and using those to hold the sprocket track on the
> tape.
So, what you tellin' me ? I've been in the repair business for
these devices some time around 1980 *grin*
>>>> So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed
>>>> lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some
>>>> PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are
>>>> 900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical
>>> You can pack a lot of ROM dumps on a 1600bpi magtape....
>> Shure, but 1600 BpI is the first density not readable
>> to humans. Again insecure.
> But some 1600bpi drives are _always_ repairable. And the format is
> sufficiently well documented that a drive could always be made.
Almost, yes, and for the formats also yes - but not the media.
I had even new taps failing to record.
>>>> Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling
>>>> EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS
>>> Never!. I'd not trust an EPROM to last longer than 10 years. Nor any
>>> other chip for that matter. Sure, a lot of them will, but some won't. And
>>> if it's the last copy in the world, you've got problems.
>> EPROMS are a real lot more reliable than any other media.
> I've had EPROMs fail. I've had floppy disks fail. Never had a 9-track
> tape fail, though. Never really lost any data because I've had it backed
> up...
Maybe just our different past - I have seen almost any kind
of magnetic media fail but never EPROMS.
>> And any magnetic media is crap for long time archival.
>> Just ask some (ausio) tape fans about tapes from the 60s.
> Oh, I don't know. I've managed to play 1960's reel-to-reel audio tapes
> (and early 19790's video tapes, reel and cassette) with no real
> problems. If you pick a suitably redundant format for the data I suspect
> it'll be OK.
Managed to play and recovering all information are
different things.
And back to CDs (to reunite the two threads):
Theres a huge difference between your listed magnetic things
and CDs - the music sector - I bet any summ you want that
there will be new drives in 20 years from now, able to read
a CD made today (if the CD contend isn't damaged of course).
I'm not talking about any specific drive of today - your
right - its even dificult to get a custom chip just 2.5 years
after the drive. Its about drives that are _able_ to read
the backup medias.
And for Zip - you're also right - I think, like you,
that Zip or syquests will be forgotten in less than
15 years (for _new_ installments).
Serus
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
Sorry for this administrivia, but if anyone cares I posted a new e-mail
address a short while ago. Please disregard this address. My primary
e-mail address still remains dastar(a)wco.com, and you may also e-mail me at
sam(a)siconic.com or though the Vintage Computer Festival web pages
(http://www.siconic.com/vcf).
Again, sorry for the interruption.
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ever onward.
September 26 & 27...Vintage Computer Festival 2
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
[Last web page update: 06/11/98]
> On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Allison J Parent wrote:
>> <Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem
>> <that I can't read some fd's of the early 80s. Even APPLE II disks,
>> <althrough I always said that a DISK ][ drive could read and write
>> <anything including Bierdeckl (beer mats/coasters).
>> Disks on good equipment are as reliable as Magtape.
> Better, I think, as with disks you need not be concerned with layer to
> layer adhesion or layer to layer transfer.
Maybe I shoud take some damaged 5,25" disks to the VCF
to show the effects of fd aging. It's a real mess when
the magnetic surface is tearing down. I have dozends
of deffect _mecanical_ disks and already ruined five
drives - and it took me about 6 hours (and one damaged
head) to clean one and get it back working.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
Below is a description of the "paper floppy disk" as given by
an old friend of mine, Dennis Adams <DAdams(a)etcconnect.com>,
who once worked on this technology.
- John
The "Paper Floppy Disk"
Newslog International (aka Lab1) developed technology for recording up
to 30-50K of data on a printed piece of cardstock approximately 6" x 4".
The data was recorded with error detection and correction information
(Reed-Soloman, I believe), as well as redundant groups, so it could
withstand misprints, marks, holes, and other flaws. This was all pre-CD,
and the cost was very cheap. One of the names for them was TDB's for
Transportable Databases. They were intended for software distribution,
database updates, games on the back of cereal boxes, etc.
Each track was a
portion of a circle (about 1/10 of the circumference). The reader had a
large (approx. 14") spinning wheel, and supported variable track pitch and
data bits per inch (so different quality paper and printing processes could
be supported), and could track media that was not cut square by skewing the
tray that held the media (since there was no physical or optical "center" on
the media -- it had a virtual movable "hole" to spin on). It used a Z80
microprocessor (running extremely tweaked assembly language by Al Jewer) and
interfaced to a computer via "high-speed" RS-232 (9600 bps).
I did demo
software on a variety of hosts, including the Storm operating system
(multi-user CP/M OS by Ron Fowler, also the author of the popular MEX
communications software), Commodore 64, and IBM-PC XT. We had a Coleco Adam
computer that we briefly considered writing something for, but it never
stayed running long enough to evaluate.
We did a multi-month trial of a
large database update for a large company based in Moline. We sent out
three months of updates to a 13M database. Each update was a half-dozen or
so cards that could be scanned in any order and then the update was applied
to the database. This was run at three dealerships that could retrieve
up-to-date database information much faster than their microfiche system
which was always out-of-date. It also displayed additional textual
information that was on other microfiche or books and not usually
referenced. This was circa 1985, and was quite impressive to the people who
used it. So much so that the actual media technology took a back seat to
the database system itself (an interesting lesson to be learned there).
Newslog / Lab1 ran out of money before the technology could be completely
finished and sold or marketed. Not that they didn't try. I learned a lot
about "demos" and "demospeak" while I worked there. I still have some media
around, but alas no reader. I'm willing to bet it could be read by a modern
high-res scanner. An energetic soul could probably even write a reader
emulator that fed the bits that it peeled radially from the high-res scan
into the actual Z80 reader code to decode it.
The best anecdote I recall regarding the technology was in the "camera"
software that generated the film original used for duplication: the base
unit of measurement was derived from the bits-per-track and camera wheel
speed and other factors I've forgotten. All of the internal calculations
were based on this "tick", which varied in actual length, but was
approximately 1mS. The camera system's author was Bill Whitford, and the
unit of measurement henceforth became known as a "willisecond." Bill's code
ran on a much larger processor with a lot of memory (I think it might have
been a 4Mhz Z80 with 64K of memory), so he development in C.
This is roundabout. I work at an ISP. I have to figure out how to work
a Macintosh, so as to explain to customers how to set theirs up. This
sounds reasonable - so the salesguy produces a Mac SE. Unfortunately, it
has no mouse or keyboard. SO I go about looking around. Can't afford $90
for a mouse and keyboard that the only-Mac-shop-in-town has, so I go looking
for used stuff. I turn up a Macintosh 512K (Sadly abused. The people
KEPT IT IN THE GARAGE SO TI WOULDN'T GIVE THEIR VCR A COMPUTER VIRUS.)
Unfortunately, it is also missing the keyboard and mouse.
So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine?
Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill?
As for the virus bit, that is 100% true! Their frind told them it could
spread thru the power lines. :)
More information on either box would be appreciated...
-------
But a mouse is a mouse, isn't it? I think it is possible to adapt a PC
mouse to a mac...not the keyboard, though. There was a site on the net
dealing with these things, but I think it might be gone. It would be
much easier for the plus, btw, since it doesn't use ADB
>Sorry, this is mac! you cant adapt pc stuff for this. the se and >later
use ADB, with mini-din connectors. plus and earlier use a db9 >style
mouse and phone cord keyboard. i doubt either can be adapted. >id love
to find some mac plus keyboards and mouses so i can sell a >bunch of
macs i have myself.
>
>In a message dated 98-06-24 14:05:01 EDT, you write:
>
><< Unfortunately, it is also missing the keyboard and mouse.
>
> So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either
machine?
> Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill?
>
> As for the virus bit, that is 100% true! Their frind told them it
could
> spread thru the power lines. :) >>
>
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>>like a storage back yard than a museum. Just putin some maybe
>>similar things in one space, without any description or system.
> The system appeals to kids who enjoy running around and pushing buttons.
> The fact that 'the big dig' was next to ship models were next to trains
> and cars were next to stuff about DNA does make me wonder...
Big dig ? Oh sorry - did I mix up the name ?
>>The tragedy is that some are real nice things, but without
>>proper integration even the best exhibit is just crap no matter
>>if hands on or not. In contrast to the basic exhibitions, special
> Has anyone been to the Boston Museum of Natural History? Now _that_ is
> well organised and old fashioned. Endless rooms of glass cases with
> everything imaginable (The New York one is considerably less
> informative).
Thank - I put it on my to-do list. Where is ist located ?
Easy to find ?
Servus
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
Sorry, this is mac! you cant adapt pc stuff for this. the se and later use
ADB, with mini-din connectors. plus and earlier use a db9 style mouse and
phone cord keyboard. i doubt either can be adapted. id love to find some mac
plus keyboards and mouses so i can sell a bunch of macs i have myself.
In a message dated 98-06-24 14:05:01 EDT, you write:
<< Unfortunately, it is also missing the keyboard and mouse.
So, how easy is it to crock up a keyboard and mouse for either machine?
Can I modify IBM gear to fit the bill?
As for the virus bit, that is 100% true! Their frind told them it could
spread thru the power lines. :) >>
>>> And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to
>>> be backed up.
>> Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem
> On paper tape, of course. It's reliable (I've never found a tape that
> can't be read), human-readable, and the automatic readers are simple
> enough to be repairable...
Jep. Good choice - I still have some paper tabes from the mid
70s in fine condition - but I also know (remembering the past)
how fast they break...
>> So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed
>> lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some
>> PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are
>> 900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical
> You can pack a lot of ROM dumps on a 1600bpi magtape....
Shure, but 1600 BpI is the first density not readable
to humans. Again insecure.
>> Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling
>> EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS
> Never!. I'd not trust an EPROM to last longer than 10 years. Nor any
> other chip for that matter. Sure, a lot of them will, but some won't. And
> if it's the last copy in the world, you've got problems.
EPROMS are a real lot more reliable than any other media.
>> (real one not EPROMS without window) should live even
> All chips fail. Bond-outs break, the chip itself fails, etc. And some
> fusible link devices suffer from a problem where the fuses grow back.
> I've never seen it myself, but it happens (I've read books on it).
And any magnetic media is crap for long time archival.
Just ask some (ausio) tape fans about tapes from the 60s.
>> longer. So just copy them. And beside the information -
>> it will be even more dificult to get a usable 2704 or
>> 2708 not already needed for an old computer.
> Wait a second. Nobody is suggesting that (a) you don't keep the EPROM
> you've backed up - or indeed that you don't keep using it, or (b) that
> you don't stock up on components now. But in 20 years time, it'll be a
> lot easier to repair a <whatever> given a ROM dump - even if you have to
> kludge in the latest multi-megabit EPROM - than without it.
I'm not interested in the backup, or the content - I just
want to have the particular computer, depending on the content
of the ROM, running. So the backup is just a tool, but it has
to be reliable for long time to reduce backup strategie time.
I found EPROMS running well for 20 years in environments
where a disk wont survive 1 day.
And of course yes, I already have a small component stock
including some 'new' EPROMS from 256 Bytes to 64K (2KBit
... 512KBit).
Gruss
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
>>> But there's no way I can afford a Lisa at the current collector's prices.
>>> So, alas, there's a gap in the collection :-(
>> So, would you trade an Imsai 8080 for a Lisa 2?
> If I had an Imsai, then yes, I would. The Lisa is a much more interesting
> machine to me...
:)
Btw: I'm still looking for any genuine Xerox Star. I own two
SIEMENS EMS 5800 class systems (5810 and 5822) - OEM Stars,
but I like to add a 'real' one to them.
And for your question - The Lisa is, compared to the Star
like Windows 3.0 compared to a Macintosh. A cheap surogat.
The differences arn't that big at first sight, but when
working the wohle day just these 4 kesy on the left side
are like switching from a Volkswagen Beetle to a Mercedes T.
Gruss
Hans
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
