Agreed. And yes, Sam, I would talk to a buyer and ask why he wants
something. I don't pay rent or insurance, so I don't know, but I would
be very uncomfortable knowing I'm a thousand dollars richer and an
IMSAI's blood on my hands. A few days ago, I had the opportunity to give
a family living in Russia a PS/2 Model 70. Why didn't I give it to them?
Because they would be hard pressed to find someone over there who is
familiar with PS/2s. How would they use the english refdisk (Russian
windows is no problem)? What if they want to add a sound card? This
thing uses MCA, not ISA.
>No flamage... just that the analogy does not work for everyone...
>
>(new <somewhat non-computer related> example coming to my web pages
>soon...)
>
>-jim
>---
>jimw(a)agora.rdrop.com
>The Computer Garage - http://www.rdrop.com/~jimw
>Computer Garage Fax - (503) 646-0174
>
>
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>Old adage: (slightly updated)
>
> "An item is only worth as much or as little as someone is willing to
>pay for it"
>
>Corollary: (much newer)
>
> "An item has no value unless the owner decides to sell it..."
>
Wow that makes my collection priceless...
>So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed
I suggest real CD-ROMs
>lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some
>PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are
>900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical
>medium is less reliable. So printing the hex dump and then
>try to scan it back (ocr) when a replacement is needed ?
>This sould be reliable, since it is human readable (Like
>old magnetic tapes).
I think paper is the best option. It shouldn't be a big deal to print a
hex dump for a 20-K program with a line printer.
>Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling
>EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS
>(real one not EPROMS without window) should live even
>longer. So just copy them. And beside the information -
What is the problem with EPROMs? Why not just put them in styrofoam?
That should keep IR out...
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Nah! I went there this week-end no Lisa there and their prices are a little
too high. Did you see the HP75's? Badly abused leaked batteries no PS $10
way too much plus nobody seemed to care I asked around if anyone knew wether
they had the Ps's and the answers I got is if it's not near the machine it
might be somewhere else. How about the badly dent Kaypro4 for $29? compac
II (or III?) for $49. I used to like that place but now they are inflating
their prices and won't even allow you to bargain.
Francois
-----Original Message-----
From: Poesie <poesie(a)geocities.com>
To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers
<classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu>
Date: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 4:12 PM
Subject: Macintosh II (lisa???)
>Not a mac collector, or user, but I spotted a box at a computer salvage
>place today that said "Macintosh II", big long box... about 2.5 feet
>wide, about 1.5 deep, about 6" high? had one 3.5 floppy slot on the
>right hand side and what appeared to be another slot next to it, but it
>was filled in. do not know if this was one of those remarketed Lisa's or
>if it is just another old mac. regardless, if it is anything, the store
>is www.dexis.com (they have a back area full of junk- mainframes, minis,
>racks, tons of old and quite cool stuff). let me know if it is anything
>interesting, i will be happy to go pick it up for somebody.
>
>-Eric
>
Sorry, I guess it would degrade, wouldn't it...
Why DO EPROMs go bad?
>Eeeek! Is this guy crazy? It would have to be stuck in
>carbon-loaded foam, and kept in a Faraday-cage container (metallized
>stat bags, or similar).
>
>> That should keep IR out...
>
>IR would be the LEAST or your worries. Now if you're a follower of
>Erich von Dainken, :-) you could inscribe your source in Gold
>leaves, as certain pre-pre-columbian 'civilizations' supposedly
>have done. Your assembly code will then be forever immortalized for
>future generations to puzzle over.
>
>Who knows? It may even become an object of worship . . . .
><Tongue now removed from cheek>
>
>Jeff
>
>+------------------------------------------------------------------+
>|Disclaimer: |
>| |
>| These opinions are entirely my own, and in no way reflect the |
>| policies or opinions of my employer. |
>| |
>+------------------------------------------------------------------+
>
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A Mac II is a 68020 or higher machine, the descendant of regular macs.
Video was on an expansion card. 5 NuBus slots, I think. Room for two
hard drives and two floppy drives (If you could ship me the ROM and RAM
for it, please email me at maxeskin(a)hotmail.com). Other models in this
series were:
Mac IIci - Narrower case with one space for HDD, one for FDD, three
slots, video on the board
Mac IIsi - Same, but a more modern case
There were also other immaterial variants.
>Not a mac collector, or user, but I spotted a box at a computer salvage
>place today that said "Macintosh II", big long box... about 2.5 feet
>wide, about 1.5 deep, about 6" high? had one 3.5 floppy slot on the
>right hand side and what appeared to be another slot next to it, but it
>was filled in. do not know if this was one of those remarketed Lisa's
or
>if it is just another old mac. regardless, if it is anything, the store
>is www.dexis.com (they have a back area full of junk- mainframes,
minis,
>racks, tons of old and quite cool stuff). let me know if it is anything
>interesting, i will be happy to go pick it up for somebody.
>
>-Eric
>
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What is the problem with EPROMs? Why not just put them in styrofoam?
That should keep IR out...
And wrap them in aluminum foil to keep out the beta radiation, or even
better lead bricks, keeps out cosmic rays and background radiation, oh,
and move to some place with low radioactivity in the soil (hmmm, lets me
out, Nevada is one of the most heavily nuked areas in the world), and
store them at some location with a low altitude too, say the Dead Sea or
Death Valley. I almost forgot, are the ROMs ceramic? Bad news,
transfer them to plastic OTPs, ceramics generally have materials that
source beta radiation. Those pretty white and gold cases could be
destroying bits even now.
Seriously, I preserve ROMs in the S-100 boards by disassembling them and
saving the source code. I have about 30 backup tape generations on 4mm
(I do one at the end of each month, well, 2 now, bigger disks), plus
older backups on DC600 cartridges, and an offsite backup too, so I don't
worry too much about losing them. And an extra advantage in having the
source code is you can actually figure out how the hardware works, not
have to depend on the skimpy manuals. The only drawback is that it is
time consuming.
Jack Peacock
>> Well, let me modify that slightly. It's only disgusting in that it's
>> going to be preventing people like the folks here on classiccmp from
>> getting their hands on systems and taking proper care of them. Sure,
> Yes, I agree 100%. As an example, one of the machines I would like is an
> Apple Lisa. Not because it's collectable, but because I'd like to compare
> Apple's extension of the work at Xerox PARC with the PERQ and with a
> Xerox D-machine. In other words I want to strip a Lisa down, hook a logic
> analyser up to it, and hack it to hell and back. In then end I'd still
> have a working Lisa, and I'd have a stack of notes as to what really goes
> on inside one.
> But there's no way I can afford a Lisa at the current collector's prices.
> So, alas, there's a gap in the collection :-(
So, would you trade an Imsai 8080 for a Lisa 2?
>> we all collect computers for the sake of collecting, but most of us
>> really enjoy keeping them running and taking care of them, and can
> Yes, I wonder how many of these 'collectable' computers are in any sense
> being preserved properly. I would doubt if ROMs were ever backed up or
> PSUs tested. Heck, distribution disks are probably not backed up even.
> I'll admit I sometimes damage the fabric of a classic, but I'm a lot more
> careful than that.
Full working, in dayly use (ok, at least once a week.
>> Lucky for me, the computers I really love the most are the ones NOT
>> found on Ebay. I've never seen a PDP8 or a PDP11 on Ebay, for instance.
> Ditto, actually. I don't want an Altair, amazingly. Well, if somebody was
> throwing one out I'd save it, but it's not a machine I'm looking for. In
> fact, as I mentioned here once before, when 10 year ago I was offered the
> choice between an Altair and an Intellec MCS8i, I grabbed the latter.
deal !
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
<Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem
<that I can't read some fd's of the early 80s. Even APPLE II disks,
<althrough I always said that a DISK ][ drive could read and write
<anything including Bierdeckl (beer mats/coasters).
Disks on good equipment are as reliable as Magtape.
<PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are
I have floppies from then to bot readable and not. more are readable
than not.
What that means is every ten years update to new media to preserve the
data.
<Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling
<EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS
Maybe... they realy on charge storage and that can dissapate in time.
Also xrays, cosmic rays and whatever can erase them! This does not
include the ambient moisture getting to the silicon and rendering it to
sand.
<(real one not EPROMS without window) should live even
Fuse link proms were even worse. I've had them grow back or develope
other defects over time. AIM proms are better but still if overstressed
at programming they can exhibit failure over time.
<longer. So just copy them. And beside the information -
<it will be even more dificult to get a usable 2704 or
<2708 not already needed for an old computer.
In the case of 27xx devices, if they forget reprogram the same one if
it's still good. If it failed well... find another?
<> takes a dry joint on the ground pin of a 7805 ( or worse still, loose
<> screws on the TO3 canned version) to wipe out the entire board of IC's
<
<> If you think I'm paranoid about this, I am. I've had it happen, you see
<> and I don't want it to happen again.
I've also had those regulators drift with age. Like any IC they can fail
of many ways!
Allison
>>> Yes, I wonder how many of these 'collectable' computers
>>> are in any sense being preserved properly. I would doubt
>>> if ROMs were ever backed up or PSUs tested.
>> Hmm, IMSAI's didn't have ROMs (or PALs and FPGAs, programmable logic had
> The topic has drifted somewhat from the subject line - I wasn't only
> refering to IMSAIs, but also to LISAs, etc, which most certainly do
> contain ROMs.
:) And also the most IMSAI I'v seen (on other boards - just
to get power up a bit more comfortable :)
> And anyway, a number of S100 cards included boot ROMs, etc. Those need to
> be backed up.
Shure, but where ? Just on a disk ? I already have the problem
that I can't read some fd's of the early 80s. Even APPLE II disks,
althrough I always said that a DISK ][ drive could read and write
anything including Bierdeckl (beer mats/coasters).
So, what to use ? Writable CDs ? They have only a guaranteed
lifetime of less than 15 years. Tapes ? Maybe - I have some
PBS Tapes from 1976 and they are still readable, but they are
900 and 1600 BpI tapes. Any modern optical and magnetical
medium is less reliable. So printing the hex dump and then
try to scan it back (ocr) when a replacement is needed ?
This sould be reliable, since it is human readable (Like
old magnetic tapes).
Or just put it again on EPROMS - with propper handling
EPROMS could survive at least 50+ years - and PROMS
(real one not EPROMS without window) should live even
longer. So just copy them. And beside the information -
it will be even more dificult to get a usable 2704 or
2708 not already needed for an old computer.
>> yet to be invented), unless you added them in yourself. As for checking
>> the power supply, an IMSAI was extremely easy to eyeball...huge
>> transformer, diodes, and beer can size capacitors. One problem I never
> Yes, but there are regulators on each S100 card. If you've got a card
> with rare socketed chips on it, I'd pull the chips and power up the card
> without them the first time. Then check the local +5V rail, etc. It only
> takes a dry joint on the ground pin of a 7805 ( or worse still, loose
> screws on the TO3 canned version) to wipe out the entire board of IC's.
> If you think I'm paranoid about this, I am. I've had it happen, you see,
> and I don't want it to happen again.
I hope you keep this attitude for the next 20 years.
Gruss
H.
--
Ich denke, also bin ich, also gut
HRK
