test-drb October 1998

test-drb@ccmp.vtda.org

175 participants
1141 discussions

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< > Micral, Mark-8, Scelbi 8H were the first wave. I don't know of any 40 < > micros other than the MCS-4, but I doubt it was especially cheap or wi < > available compared to some of the others, and compared especially to t < > computers that came before. < < Ok, I can add the Kenbak-1 to your list and it would be just as irreleva < as the three you just listed. You just named three computers that barel Ok then how about mords/modules manufactured and sold with 8008s on them like the Control Logic L series (there weren't the only ones) for use in industrial controls. Their cost was not that far off the mark when compared to an altair with 4k and a PIO. < We would have had microprocessor-based computers on our desktop today. < The trend was definitely heading in that direction. Intel merely was i < the right place at the right time. There still would have been a Lee < Felsenstein, a Steve Wozniak and a Ray Holt. And a slew of others. Altair was not a big bang, it was however a marker or milestone that had to happen if not to MITS then some one else. I would also contend that if at least two other vendors didn't jump on S100 in less than 6 months the Altair would be far more obscure. < I'm not saying it could have, I'm saying it WAS and IS. The F14 CADC < happened (independently and prior to the 4004). That is a fact. The < AMI7200 and AMI7300 happened. That is a fact. Several other < microprocessors from several other companies happened. That is a fact. < Even if Intel had never existed, we STILL would have had the microcomput < revolution of around 1975, and today we would have microprocessor-based < computers on our desks and in our pockets. To speculate otherwise woul < be absurd. The CADC itself was of little direct impact as we never saw it. The processing, design steps and process experience however were critical to whoever made them as they gained valuable foundry experience and could apply that to the next product. Also, since Ray Holt didn't do it alone there wer a slew of people that also gained experience they could apply to thing like calculator chips and maybe even the 4004. This makes it easier to create the next product and also possible to do it less expensively. < them. I don't have the Nina, the Pinta or the Santa Maria in my < collection, so Columbus never "discovered America". I don't have an Technically he didn't. He discoverd the Caribian islands. BUT, by not falling off the flat earth and finding something out there others would come and actually touch the Amrican contenents. < Apollo rocket in my collection, so America never made it to the moon. Still, it's possible to go and see one. FYI: the rocket was Saturn, the command module was known as Apollo . < You seem to have this idea that Intel deliberately acted to create the < microcomputer industry, that they had this grand master scheme that woul < culminate in the Altair 8800. This is simply not the case. Intel did < provide training and support to companies to use the 4004 in their < applications, but where is your evidence that they knew this would lead < cheap computers? Their advert in November 1971 electronic news. A quote: A micro-programable computer on a chip! Intel Introduced an integreated CPU complete with a 4-but parallel adder, sixteen 4-bit registers, an accumulator and a push down stack on one chip. It is one of a family of four new ICs which comprize the MCS-4 Micro computer system - the first system to bring you the power and flexibility of a dedicate general-purpose computer at low cost in as few as two dual in-line packages. Seems they were aimed squarely at the low cost market. They would introduce the 8008 and 8080 in the same ways. < The 4004 was just the first in the succession of many microprocessors fr < many manufacturers. Why did the Mark-8 and Scelbi 8H designers choose t < 8008? Who knows. What compelling evidence do you have that shows Inte < intended for the 8008 to end up in those computers? An equally importan < question is what computers did the other microprocessors being develope < at the time end up in? They had to have gone into something. Just < because you don't have those in your collection, does not mean they wer < not built. Likely for the same reson I used the 8008 the first time. Intel was visible and advertized. When I helped pick the 8008 in late '72 I could point to a working board (MCS-8) and docs to help us newbies. We used what we knew about and at 200$US each they weren't cheap at all but it was better than 200 pieces of TTL that had to be wired and tested. So the Mark-8 Etal had the precedence of visible advertizing, Docs and availability. An aside , the docs part was not lost on moto! You could get the 6800 cheap enough and for 25$ more you could get a thick volume of hardware and software knowlege that made using it easy. < What I'm trying to say is that this revolution would have happened with < without Intel, and assigning them all the credit for creating this < industry, or making it possible, or even influencing it is credit not < entirely deserved. What is missed and not mentioned is the small details. INTEL created the 4004 becuase they didn't want another fixed function calculator chip for only one vendor. This ment they could mass make it and sell to everyone with higher profit. The 4004 was significant as it had a hardware return address stack. There are things there that did seperate the micro computers that would result from the minicomputers that were before. < > importance of the 4004. LSI was just a means to an end: cheap compute < > How much did the F14's computer cost, BTW? < < I want to say less than $100 per computer but I think it was actually le < than $100 per chip. Still, that would put it at $600 at the most for th < whole system (6 chips total in the F14 CADC). Some perspective... in mil spec design, construction and testing made it likely several thousand $$$. Even if it were 10k$ per it was cheap compared to available processors of the time and none fit in that form factor. Also the 4004 was *relatively* cheap but the amortized development cost were still significant and have to be include to be fair. < > 4004 was the Big Bang; that the dust from that explosion still bears t < > Intel imprint is interesting, but that's a different topic. < < And I am still arguing that the 4004 was NOT the big bang. I don't wan < to put my thumb (at this point) on which Intel product it was. But it m < not in fact even be an Intel product. It very well may be a combinatio < of products from multiple vendors. I haven't seen any conclusive < arguments to support the 4004 as being the big bang that started the < microcomputer revolution. It was a pop, just like the CADC was a pop. I'd say there is some reality there. The big bangs were those that would hit the media and cause ripples down the line. Using that line of thought... the CPU chip was not the big bang but the catalyst for the explosion. IE: Altair was not significant due to the 8080 but that it was first of class and more importantly COPIED. Name one other machine/bus before ALTAIR that would be copied widely and competitively within one year of introduction!?! I will add that I doubt Intel saw it as a serious opportunity to sell chips until after the Pop'tronics cover hit the stands. Reason it would be little while before the hobby (we were called that) market would be taken seriously and semiconductor vendors would see the potential of the early edge of the personal computer/ small desktop computer industry. That got DEC, IBM and DGs attention though none were sure of what to make of it. The fact of it was by 1978 there was no question that there wer more microcomputers (or various types) than all of IBM, DEC and DGs output to date! It was the Volkswagons of the computer industry. Tin Lizzie, Ha! Allison

27 years, 1 month

Vaporware (and not) from '83 CES

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

New computers announced at the 1983 CES: Vaporware? Please respond if you KNOW any of these exist for SURE. - Panasonic JR-200 (I think this may exist) - Sanyo PCH20/PHC25 (Z80, 4K/16K, $99/$199) - STM Pied Piper (CP/M portable, 64K, $1295) - TI 99/2 (Supposedly $100, including 4.2K RAM) - TI CC-40 (Compact Computer 40, laptop like Epson HX-20, 4 AA cells, 31 character LCD display, $249) - Unisonic Futura 8300 (Z80, 2K, Sinclair BASIC, $90) - Video Technology VZ200 (Z80, 4K, MS BASIC, $99) Not Vaporware - Jupiter Ace - Mattel Aquarius - Spectravideo SV-318 - Timex Sinclair 2000 By the way, has anyone actually seen an TI 99/4 (not 4a)? Kai

27 years, 1 month

Corrections to trivia

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< Which was false, anyhow. The entire CPU was on the 3850 chip. But you < seemed to be making the claim that the 3850 wasn't a single-chip < microprocessor because it didn't contain the complete CPU. I was statin It isn't a single chip microprocessor like it's cousin the 3870. It's definately in the multichip (IE: required external chips to be a complete system). < that the 3850 CPU was as complete as the 8080, so if you are going to cl < that the 3850 wasn't a single-chip microprocessor, in order to be consis < you'll have to make the same claim about the 8080. You are confused. The 8080 is a single chip cpu that requires support chips. The F8 is a single chip cpu that requires support chips. The 3870 however (or 8048) are single chip microprocessors. See the subtle difference? Also the F8 is not as complete a cpu as the 8080 as it really has to have a lost of stuff around it or special chips to get a nominal data/address bus to interface to convential rams/roms. Allison

27 years, 1 month

Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting

by kaikal＠MICROSOFT.com

Funny you should mention the OSI's, a saintly coworker just gave me a C4P-MF and a C3D today. The C3D is the one you were thinking of with the 3 different CPU's. I also 'always wanted' a CompuColor II, and finally found one last year, it's REALLY rare. http://www.geocities.com/~compcloset/CompuColorII.htm Still looking for a Sorcerer, but I have a couple of leads from the VCF. One gentleman has two of 'em, one of which has the S-100 box. Hasn't replied to my email yet though... Kai -----Original Message----- From: David Williams [mailto:dlw@trailingedge.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 3:20 PM To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers Subject: RE: Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting On 6 Oct 98, at 16:48, Matt Pritchard wrote: > 1) Compucolor 2 (The Model with floppy disk in the monitor housing) > - I let one of these, working w/ software slip through my hands about > 4-5 > years ago That's one I played with once back in the dark ages and I wish I could find another. I have talked to people who worked there who still had a couple in the attic but didn't feel like digging them out and sending them to me, too much trouble. :-( > 2) an Exidy Sorcerer Finally got one and love it. Now if work would stop sending me around the country I could get some work done on the expansion box for it. >3) Ohio Scientific Challenger 4p (?) I'd be happy right now with any Ohio Scientific system. Though I'd really like the one, can't find my notes for the model, which had 3 processors. A 6502, Z-80 and 680x if I recall. Have the notes on it around here somewhere. Of course I'd add all of Kai's to the list too but that would throw me over 10. ----- David Williams - Computer Packrat dlw(a)trailingedge.com http://www.trailingedge.com

27 years, 1 month

New Acquisitions

by hhacker＠gte.net

I worked at the Los Angeles Air Force Base in the mid 80's and one of the requirements for personal computers of the time was called TEMPEST. Computers meeting the TEMPEST specification contained such hardware as necessary in order to ensure that electromagnetic radiation emitted from the computer would not be able to be monitored in such a way as to determine the use to which the computer was being put. More simply, one would not be able to eavesdrop on the computer user, since there would be no discernable message in any electromagnetic radiation coming from the computer. Perhaps this is what you have. This would explain the extra shielding on cables and the double walled chassis. -----Original Message----- From: Marvin <marvin(a)rain.org> To: Discussion re-collecting of classic computers <classiccmp(a)u.washington.edu> Date: Saturday, October 10, 1998 12:10 AM Subject: New Acquisitions >We've all heard talk about how great amateur radio events are for finding >good stuff. Tonight, I went to the Ventura Amateur Radio Club annual >auction and picked up some interesting stuff. > >$ 1.00 IBM TPC (Tempest version of the IBM PC) >$ 5.00 Commodore 16 clean in the original box >$ 5.00 NEC PC-8201A in the original box >$ 1.00 Apple //e system w/ monitor, printer, numeric keypad >$ 2.00 Apple //e system w/ monitor, printer >$10.00 Commodore System w/ 1702 monitor, printer, etc. >$ 1.00 Collection of Apple ][ software > >BTW, I have never seen (or heard) of the IBM TPC before. Anyone know how >common these things are? Both the monitor and keyboard have shielded cables >running to the box (as expected) and it looks like the box itself is a box >within a box.

27 years, 1 month

New Find

by lwalker＠mail.interlog.com

I keep adding to my collection regularly but this is notable. A Kaypro II to go with my (as yet non-functioning) Kaypro 2X. It was in an incredibly jammed little junk-store which remains unplumbed by me for now. In Sam's catergization scheme ,this would rate as a cockroach-market There were 2 walls piled high in a narrow shop with everything imagineable , leather jackets, jeans and toasters just tossed in a pile on top of each other with barely enough room to get between. Saw lots of old printers and monitors but at the bottom of one pile I could barely discern that tell-tale Darth Vader Blue form. It was dusty and dirty on the outside but clean-uppable and when I opened it up at home the KB was impeccably clean. It had cardboard inserts to protect the fdds, and the A drive's insert had a bill for $565 ($185 parts) with the owners name and phone number. I surmise the owner was told the price and never reclaimed it. Sounds like I have a Refurbished machine here ! :^)) ciao larry lwalker(a)interlog.com

27 years, 1 month

Top 10 Holy Grails of Classic Microcomputer Collecting

by sinasohn＠ricochet.net

At 03:16 PM 10/7/98 +1000, you wrote: >What is the difference between the PC-8201 and the PC-8201A? I've got two >PC-8201As, and what *seems* to be an PC-8201. It's a different, bronze, >colour and has "NEC PC-8201" printed on the top left-hand corner. However, >the silver sticker on the bottom of the computer says it is a PC-8201A. The most obvious difference is the japanese characters on the keyboard. The "[" key in the lower right corner (next to the spacebar) is instead a toggle key (like capslock or grph) that switches into japanese mode. It also says "personal computer" under PC-8201 next to the screen, whereas my 8201a doesn't. On the back, the silver sticker is written in japanese. --------------------------------------------------------------------- O- Uncle Roger "There is pleasure pure in being mad roger(a)sinasohn.com that none but madmen know." Roger Louis Sinasohn & Associates San Francisco, California http://www.sinasohn.com/

27 years, 1 month

Internet Question

by rax＠warbaby.com

Does anyone remember the cost of internet access/online time via Compuserve in the 80s ? I need to give a comparison of today's cost of sending a graphics file. R. -- Warbaby The WebSite. The Domain. The Empire. http://www.warbaby.com The MonkeyPool WebSite Content Development http://www.monkeypool.com Once you get the nose on, the rest is just makeup.

27 years, 1 month

FW: VS2000 Color Video Board for shipping cost.

by kyrrin＠my-dejanews.com

Check this out... -=-=- <snip> -=-=- From: "Mike O'Malley" <mike_omalley(a)usa.net> Newsgroups: comp.os.vms Subject: VAXstation 2000 Hardware Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:37:36 -0600 Organization: Flashnet Communications, http://www.flash.net Lines: 13 Message-ID: <6vo5ri$m76$1(a)excalibur.flash.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: p69.amax2.dialup.abq2.flash.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express for Macintosh - 4.01 (295) Path: blushng.jps.net!news.eli.net!news-sea-20.sprintlink.net!207.12.55.130!news-west.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.erols.net!nntprelay.mathworks.com!nntp.flash.net!excalibur.flash.net!not-for-mail I have one VAXstation 2000 board. - VS40X 4 Plane Color Graphics You want it, I send it. You pay the shipping. Please send request to mike_omalley(a)usa.net ...Mike ---------------- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner and head honcho, Blue Feather Technologies -- kyrrin (at) jps [dot] net Web: http://table.jps.net/~kyrrin "...No matter how we may wish otherwise, our science can only describe an object, event, or living thing in our own human terms. It cannot possibly define any of them..."

27 years, 1 month

Misc.

by allisonp＠world.std.com

< You need to add my favorite - Intersil's Intercept Jr. Good addition for an SBC, I wouldn't mind having on either. I do have the intersil 6960 sampler board. < Allison said: < >7. Intel prompt-48 < < I have one of those I could trade. < The only docs I have are 5 pages in the back of the MCS-48 < manual. Never have tried powering it up. Oh! Use to use one and know it well. Fun little box. Wouldn't mind having one for the SBC collection. Goes well with the IMSAI IMP48. Allison

27 years, 1 month

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test-drb October 1998