7 May
2010
7 May
'10
7:46 p.m.
In this case, Fred's just, ok, can't say anything nice, don't say anything,
he's gone to my ignore list, it's better this way...
as for Valtrep, a lot just personal experience, remember I worked on it, in the 80s and
before in the 70s.
it's interesting even info on the old "Sentry-70" computer system can't
be found online, at least, I can't find any.
The Sentry-70 is as it suggests, the last model, and numbered by year. that would be
1970.
It predates the Cyber/Prime system, as much as memory recalls anyhow.
They had the Sentry-70 at the university I happened to be at, at the time.
I started there in 1976, yeah I know, it's still late for the time periods we're
talking about.
However, the systems and languages had been there for a long time before I started.
There are a few things that lend evidence to these statements, none of which are likely
verifiable...
1. that is how Valtrep was introduced to me (ok, so it's hearsay)
2. more importantly - the structure of the language - and this is more telling.
It's quite easy to identify a more primitive version of a language when compared to a
more modern one.
Syntax, functions, scope, definitions, everything about it.
Do I have any sample code of Valtrep still around? That's a tough question.
I'm going to guess "NO", however, it is certainly possible. I will
definitely look.
There are a few people who were at the same university with me at the same time,
I can also consult with them and perhaps get some of their memories,
one of them may even have sample code, if only on punch-card or whatever.
It might be easier [sic] to find info on the computer "Sentry-70", but all my
searches thus far have come up blank
on any useful information anyhow.
I'm willing to cede the argument that Valtrep was the predecessor to Fortran if anyone
can offer any evidence to support that.
Perhaps it's an odd claim to make without any backup, but then, I was there, so....
Valtrep was very "Fortran-ish" however it didn't have all the functions or
capabilities, it was more rudimentary.
Dan.
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN
Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 22:57:32 +0100
I can't say I have ever heard of Valtrep before and my attempts at searching
the web do not reveal any definitive information. What definitive
information do you have on Valtrep to say that it predates FORTRAN? FORTRAN
dates back to the 1950s.
Regards
Rob
PS I think personal attacks have no place on this list. If someone has
misinterpreted what you say, then explain what you meant, because it is
always possible that you might not have been clear the first time.
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-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Gahlinger
Sent: 07 May 2010 21:53
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN
If you actually READ the email instead of making immature remarks,
maybe you'd learn something.
I didn't say apple contracted with Valtrep for their Lisa FORTRAN or
even implied anything like that. (that would be quite impossible).
Don't make stupid comments especially if you don't read the mssage.
You say my 1980s experiences with Valtrep were long after Fortran was
well established and into the decline?
Say it isn't so batman! what is this alternate universe we live in!?
oh, and your comment that Valtrep had some nice improvements on the
original creation of Fortran is just plain stupid.
Valtrep is the PREDECESSOR to Fortran, or didn't you read my message so
you could understand that. Guess not.
Fortran may have been in heavy use since the 1960s (actually it's
probably more like the mid to late 70s, but whatever),
but Valtrep was actually developed and used long before that.
Just because some company was still using Valtrep in the 1980s doesn't
make it newer you know.
Many companies use products and technologies that haven't been
developed or wide use in decades...
I have no idea who this "transnet" guy is, maybe you can ask him, maybe
he'll be nicer than I am.
In any case, the predecessor to Fortran was Valtrep. Not all such
technology has survived.
Someone months ago on this list talked about reviving a Cyber/Prime,
but we never did hear about the result if it ever got finished...
Dan.
valtrep.
Date: Fri, 7 May 2010 13:10:00 -0700
From: cisin at xenosoft.com
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Lisa C and Lisa FORTRAN
On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
FORTRAN?
Actually, Fortran came from Valtrep
WOW!
Are you saying that Apple contracted with Valtrep for their Lisa
Or are you saying that the earliest versions of FORTRAN were based on
Valtrep? If so, you should be aware that FORTRAN was in heavy active
use
in the 1960s, rather long before your 1980s
experiences with Valtrep.
NO. Valtrep may have made some nice improvements, but they were
never
part of the original creation of FORTRAN.
> I used to code on some old Sentry-70 systems in Valtrep back in the
80s
yes, this
was after fortran was already quite established.
Yes, RATHER.
FORTRAN was well on to its DECLINE in usage by then.
> it's very like fortran - if you can write fortran, you can do > Interestingly perhaps, googling for valtrep
is quite useless it
seems...
Oh, I don't know, that guy "transnet" has some interesting ideas :-)
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7 May
7 May
10:03 p.m.
On Fri, 7 May 2010, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
There are a few things that lend evidence to these
statements, none of
which are likely verifiable...
1. that is how Valtrep was introduced to me (ok, so it's hearsay)
2. more importantly - the structure of the language - and this is more
telling.
It's quite easy to identify a more primitive version of a language when
compared to a more modern one.
Syntax, functions, scope, definitions, everything about it.
Now THAT is much more credible. Dan has now acknowledged that some of the
source information that he was given could be flawed.
Valtrep was introduced to Dan as being a/THE predecessor of FORTRAN. Dan
is merely honestly passing on what was told TO him. The person who TOLD
Dan that may have been mistaken ("That's what they told me"), exaggerating
("Oh, yeah. This machine predates the existence of DEC",. . . ), or
lying.
How accurate are the details we were told about the "PDQ FORTRAN"
that we used on a 1620 in a college in 1967? Was that even really a 1401
in the next room, or some related model?
20+ years later, I was given a damaged 24" disk platter, and told that it
came from THAT 1401. Recently folk with far more experience on those
machines have told me "no way", and that therefore what I had been telling
my students for recent years wasn't accurate.
In terms of being noticably more primitive, let me offer a hypothesis of
an honest way that Dan could be mistaken: It is not at all uncommon for
universities to proudly use software, including compilers, that were
written by students there. Such student written materials may be quite a
bit cruder, and lacking many refinements. Did your first attempt at
writing a C compiler include floating point? It may not always be
feasable to differentiate between earlier software V modern early efforts
by talented programming students. After all, that seems to be how we
ended up with the UCSD Pascal and P-System, in which certain
characteristics are noticably more primitive than much of the commercial
software of the time, while certain other characteristics may be novel and
innovative.
What was the purported relationship between Valtrep and "Speed-Coder"?
We may never know all of the details, and we've seen how WWW is still
extremely porous in its information.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
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