On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: They are already TEACHING that!

Actually, tjhere';s no proof that the world is more than, say, 10 second old. It might have been created with all of us on it, with all the memories we have, and so on. You can't _prove_ that's not the case :-) But if oyu acept the more normal view, then I've had na IBM computer for more than 20 years. -tony

At 11:40 AM -0700 7/3/12, Chuck Guzis wrote: But... But... He did! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |

On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, TeoZ wrote: and the cellphone

And the mouse, the graphic interface, the keyboard and arcades (pong)

On 03/07/12 2:25 PM, Richard wrote: Greece maybe? --T

On Jul 3, 2012, at 3:12 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: Also, the first Mac didn't have a hard drive except as a late aftermarket add-on (which reminds me, I need to offload the contents of our old HD 20 before it succumbs to shelf-rot). - Dave

________________________________ From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> Naaah. Those other "prehistoric" machines "don't really count"...snip C: Well after all we don't consider the abacus or the slide rule as early peecees. So maybe the Mac was the first peecee. ?On 2nd thought, I think it was the Mindset ;). Beat out the Mac w/cartridge ports at least...

On 3 Jul 2012, at 22:07 , Tony Duell wrote: Maybe the textbook said, "Apple II", a defensible answer. Some people think Mac and Apple are synonymous. .tsooJ

On Tue, 3 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: . . . and then, when they become teachers, they promulgate that same nonsense as confirmed fact" That's how we get Elisha Gray and Leif Ericson dropped from history, George Washington and the cherry tree, "Henry Ford invented the automobile", and Columbus' mission revised as being "to prove the world is round"! (all educated people at the time knew that it was round, and they had a pretty good idea of the exact size; Columbus was trying to prove that it is 1/3 of its size!) Fact checking is NOT required, not encouraged, when writing a history textbook. Curricula is finalized by the most ignorant.

On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: Well, Leif Eric[k?]son wasn't involved in telephony as far as I know. Or, if he was, he went straight to wireless, and didn't leave any copper wire behind. He went back and forth between Europe and America, and started a colony in Newfoundland? 500 years before Columbus. I think that his cargo of timber provides some evidence that he wasn't imagining having found some land on his first voyage.

On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 4:07 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: First consumer machine with a 3.5" floppy (and/or no 5.25" floppy in the era of floppies being standard)? First consumer machine with bit-mapped-only video (no text mode)? First consumer machine that 100% shipped with a mouse? Yes, we have. It's all about what criteria are selected. That certainly meets several of the typical criteria. I personally feel that high-level-language in ROM is not a defining characteristic, but in 1972 it was definitely an advanced feature. S-100 machines soft-loaded BASIC (a few years later) and are still personal computers. The Apple II soft-loaded AppleSoft BASIC. I'm sure there are more examples. It is not, however, a stretch to say that the first personal computer was invented long before 1984 (or 1981). -ethan

Not the first one with bit-mapped video. Perhaps the first one to NOT give you a test mode. THAT is an invention? Not the first one to have a mouse available. Perhaps the first one that could not be purchased without the bundled mouse. THAT is an invention? Not the first one to have a 3.5" drive And the Seequa Chameleon would be the the first to . . . NOT necessarily Apple, and all such impediments can be circumvented: Which is the first personal computer to use "tamper-proof" fasteners to block user access to the insides? (extra points for having used Velcro on a previous model!) Which is the first personal computer to not let you have, nor add, a floppy drive? Which is the first personal computer to attempt to eliminate third party floppy drives? Which is the first personal computer with a CRT, but not having a video output? Which is the first personal computer to not let you install any software not purchased through the manufacturer? Are THOSE "inventions"?

On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Tony Duell wrote: ^^^^ sorry! "TEXT" I DID put "tamper-proof" in the obligatory quotation marks. The 5150 did predate the Mac, and used the "tamper-proof" torx on the power supply. That did necessitate an excursion to another room. Wow! like to see that. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com

On 04/07/2012 05:19, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: ACT Apricot precedes even that, though not by much. The Wikipedia article says it was launched in September 1983 but I remember them from much earlier in the year (I worked for an ACT distributor). They had a built-in 3.5" drive (315K formatted, single-sided 600rpm) and there was no 5.25" option. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

On 04/07/2012 23:50, Chuck Guzis wrote: Could be, but that also had other drive options. The Apricot PC is reputedly the first complete machine with only 3.5". -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

AFAIK The Apricot had no true text mode eithre. The Aprocot vidoe system is a bit strange. There's the normal 'CRT controller' to address the video RAM and generate timing signals. The video RAM is 2K*16 bits. some bits of which are used as attributes, but 11 bitsd (I think) are used as the 'chracter'. This addresses an area of the main DRAM which cotnains the character patters. Now, you can use that as a convnetional text display. Assume you only have 256 chracters, load the patterns into the right bit fo the main memroy, nad put the character codes in the 2K video RAM. But note that 11 bits is enough to have a differenc chracter pattern at each fo the 80*24 loctaions on the screen. So you can store a differnet chracter code in each location and then use the appropriate area of the main memory to control idividuyal pixels on the display. I think the Sirius/Victor 9000 does the same thing. -tony

Alexey Toptygin wrote: When the Spectrum came out, I had the impression that it was a text mode machine with redefinable characters like many of its competitors. Given that this was a popular hack to give the ZX81 "high resolution" graphics and the way color is controlled in 8x8 pixel blocks, this was a reasonable guess. But I learned otherwise a few years ago. The only hardware mode is a simple 256x192 bitmap starting at 0x4000 which is modified by a 32x24 attribute map at 0x5800. The model presented by Basic is what you described, but the model seen by assembly language programs is very similar to what the Mac had. -- Jecel

Was it? I thoght the HP150 predated it (although I guess you could configure an HP150 with 5.25" drives). What do you mean by 'consumer' here? I you mean 'sold to anyone who'd buy it' then the PERQ certain;y predates it. Of course. You need to define 'personal' and 'computer'. Do programmable calcualtors cunnt [1] for example? [1] No, not i nthe sense of incrementing a regiser :-) The HP9830 was, I belive , the fist machine where you just bought it, plugged in itno the mains nad used it. Nothing more to buy, no stoage meadia to insert, etc. It's _one_ candidate, sure. There are plenty of others, and there;s nothign wrong with pickign one of those if you define the cretia appropriately. I think we all agree that the personal computer of today comes from a long line of machines and it's not clear which of those is thefirst personal computer. -tony

On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 3:27 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: The HP150 had 3.5" drives first (by two months, I understand), but if you can put 5.25" floppies on it, then it's disqualified from this exact and precise definition of "first". The term "consumer" is more equivalent to "mass marketed" than to "customer". DEC sold minicomputers to "anyone who'd buy them" but "consumers" didn't fall into the ranks of the DEC new-purchase customers until practically the days of the Rainbow (yes lots of people like the ones on this list, including several actual members of this list, owned their own DEC equipment, but very, very few purchased that same equipment new, at new prices for personal, not professional, use). Two terms that are easy to define to 80% accuracy, but very difficult when used to split hairs of the type "machine X is/is not a personal computer". I would say that if a particular device is considered to be a calculator, programmable or not, it's not eligible for moniker "personal computer". A computer that can't calculate isn't much of a computer, and likewise a calculator that can't "compute" is just a calculator. IMO, the difference is intended use and especially the UI. Calculators have numeric keypads and mathematical function keys, and if they have alpha keys, those are often a secondary feature. Computers tend towards toggle switches, simple keypads (0-F plus load, run, etc), or full typewriter-style alphanumeric keyboards with symbols commonly used when writing human languages, not just mathematical expressions. An advanced machine for 1972, clearly. Right. Just because a different machine requires multiple cabinets or load media, or only interfaces to the user via lights and switches doesn't make it less of a computer, just different, and probably for a different type of user/customer. It's much easier to define 10 characteristics of "personal computing" and give examples of what may be the first appearance of said characteristic than to nominate "a" specific "first persona compute". I remember there was even an argument that the IBM 5150 was the first personal computer specifically because it was call the the "IBM Personal Computer" and was the first to use the term. That's clearly easy to disprove (Apple wasn't even the first, but they use "personal computer" or "personal computing" in their 1977 ads for the Apple II). I think it was Fred that said that "it must have been the author's first computer" - that certainly colors the common perception of "first" - baby duck syndrome - a topic that makes the rounds here frequently. My first 8-bitter was an PET, my second was an Elf, my first 16-bitter was a PDP-11 and so on... they are still the machines that evoke the most pleasant memories for me. There was a lot of different hardware made in the 1960s and 1970s, but the ones I saw first were certainly the ones I like "best". A corollary to the "first" discussion would be "first at what?" and/or "first and why?" Those are easier to find counter examples to than just an endless circular discussion of just "first". -ethan

I agree. I beleive there was an officil carrying handle that you could bolt to an HP9830. And the Philips P850 minicomputer optionally came in a tabletop cabinet with carrying handels. Are those 'portables'? -tony

I can think in lots of them, but none of them "first personal computer".

On Wed, 4 Jul 2012, Oliver Lehmann wrote: Besides, worker drones don't need to know history, much less ACCURATE history, only whether we are currently at war with Eurasia, Eastasia, or Oceania, along with examples of the atrocities committed by whichever one(s) we are currently at war with. And, besides those inducted into the anointed corporate computer programming priesthood, the only computer science that the public needs to know is how to use the "APPS" for the digital sweatshop. Teaching that Jobs invented the computer simplifies the task of training "good citizens". Just let MiniTrue write the textbooks that are best for us. MiniTrue RecDep can rectify the historical records. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Room 101 Miniluv

Precisely. As I said last night, I have no problem with, say, Newtonian mechanics being taught. Yes, it's incomplete. It's an apporximation. But it's a veyery useful approximation, It's oen that you later learn _is_ an apporximation, but you don;'t ahev to unlearn it. I have no problem with DC circuit throry (all impedance is pure resistive) being taught either. It's also an apporximation (classically, yo ucan never get to the steady state in any cirucit, all circutis ahve some inducatance and capacitance), and you will have ot learn the AC theory later. But equally, the AC theory builds on the DC part, and if you do ahve a ismple DC circuit, the simple theory predicts results to the accuracy you can measure them. But it is not an 'approximation' tht the Macintosh was the first personal computer. IMHO there is no reasonable definition of 'personal computer' that makes that statemetn remotely true. It's just plain wrong. -tony