18 Dec
2018
18 Dec
'18
11:36 a.m.
I talked to a recycler today, who said he told his workers to throw out 2000
Model F keyboards last week, but he doubts they did it.
I also asked him about 8088, 2086, and 386 computers. He said they go
straight to the grinder. I told him I will buy them.
Then an HP dealer contacted me, wants to know if I buy old HP stuff. I told
him Apollo and earlier. Let me know if there is something specific HP you
want.
Cindy Croxton
Electronics Plus
1613 Water Street
Kerrville, TX 78028
830-370-3239 cell
sales at elecplus.com
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
18 Dec
18 Dec
1:08 p.m.
On Dec 18, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Electronics Plus via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I talked to a recycler today, who said he told his workers to throw out 2000
Model F keyboards last week, but he doubts they did it.
I also asked him about 8088, 2086, and 386 computers. He said they go
straight to the grinder. I told him I will buy them.
Then an HP dealer contacted me, wants to know if I buy old HP stuff. I told
him Apollo and earlier. Let me know if there is something specific HP you
want.
Cindy, I?m curious, is there really a market for 8086/88, 286, and 386 computers? What
are folks using them for?
Zane
1:16 p.m.
Cindy, I?m curious, is there really a market for
8086/88, 286, and 386
computers? What are folks using them for?
Why not? I am guessing most are used to play games but it really depends on your
generation and time period. I am always surprised how many DEC/PDP aficionados there are.
At least with the 8086 series of systems you can still (relatively) easily interface them
to a modern system.
-Ali
1:41 p.m.
On 12/18/2018 02:08 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
Cindy, I?m curious, is there really a market for
8086/88, 286, and
386 computers? What are folks using them for?
I know that there is an active IBM PS/2 collectors community that would
be happy with anything in that range.
I think PS/2s range from 286 - (very few) Pentium. I don't /think/
there were any 8086 / 8088 PS/2s, but I could be mistaken.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
2:02 p.m.
Sure, the PS/2 Model 25 and 30 were 8086.
There's a lot of x86 gear still in production in industrial environments.
I've got a customer running part of a semiconductor line on industrial 286s
with no plans to retire them anytime soon. Not the oldest systems I support
for $day_job by far. And of course there's plenty of hobbyist interest in
older x86 stuff.
Thanks,
Jonathan
On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 4:42 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 12/18/2018 02:08 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
Cindy, I?m curious, is there really a market for
8086/88, 286, and
386 computers? What are folks using them for?
I know that there is an active IBM PS/2 collectors community that would
be happy with anything in that range.
I think PS/2s range from 286 - (very few) Pentium. I don't /think/
there were any 8086 / 8088 PS/2s, but I could be mistaken.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
19 Dec
19 Dec
2:57 a.m.
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 at 22:42, Grant Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I think PS/2s range from 286 - (very few) Pentium. I don't /think/
there were any 8086 / 8088 PS/2s, but I could be mistaken.
As "system_glitch" said, there were.
The original model 30 was an 8086, and not even a great one -- it
didn't have true VGA, for instance.
http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/7492.htm
It was also available in a small-form-factor all-in-one case as the Model 25:
http://www.ibmfiles.com/pages/ps2model25.htm
http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=1183
Easily mistaken for a PS/1. That got me a lot of abuse on Twitter recently.
Then there was the Model 30-286, a sort of mucked-about PC-AT.
http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/2585/IBM-PS-2-Model-30-286/
And from our own Tezza:
https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/ps2-286-30.htm
They're sort of not "real" PS/2s because they have the AT bus, not
MicroChannel. I think the 30-286 could run OS/2 though.
The same case (or very nearly) was reused for the Model 55SX. I
actually have one of these.
https://ancientelectronics.wordpress.com/2015/08/06/ibm-ps2-model-55sx/
It's a "true" PS/2 with MCA. I hope to get an old version of OS/2 2 or
3 going on mine some time.
--
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
9:42 a.m.
On 12/19/2018 03:57 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
The original model 30 was an 8086, and not even a
great one -- it didn't
have true VGA, for instance.
The original IBM PC / AT / XT didn't have VGA either. So that seems par
for the generation of the processor. (At least as I understand /
remember it.)
It was also available in a small-form-factor
all-in-one case as the
Model 25:
I always liked the PS/2 cases. Just about every one I've seen is tool
less down to, and sometimes including, the system planar (as IBM called it).
Easily mistaken for a PS/1. That got me a lot of abuse
on Twitter
recently.
The only PS/1 that I've ever seen was a pizza box and had a folding door
to cover the 5? bay.
They're sort of not "real" PS/2s because
they have the AT bus, not
MicroChannel. I think the 30-286 could run OS/2 though.
IMHO, it's a PS/2 if it has an IBM PS/2 badge. The PS/2 line covered a
LOT of territory.
The same case (or very nearly) was reused for the
Model 55SX. I actually
have one of these.
I cut my teeth on a 55SX. I may reacquire one some day.
It's a "true" PS/2 with MCA. I hope to
get an old version of OS/2 2 or
3 going on mine some time.
I know that I've run OS/2, OS/2 Warp, and Windows 95, all loaded off of
floppy disks on my model 80 that I had at the time. I've also had
NetWare on multiple of them.
I want to try to get AIX 1.3 on the model 70 that I have now.
I'm the masochist that will configure Token Ring for it. }:-)
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
1:16 p.m.
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
I always liked the PS/2 cases. Just about every one
I've seen is tool less
down to, and sometimes including, the system planar (as IBM called it).
Typically unreliable source (my uncle who worked for IBM) said that the
reason that they REFUSED to call it a "motherboard" was due to some TV
news broadcasts from Merritt College where Black Panthers were saying "UP
AGAINST THE WALL, MOTHER!"
I was there. They said 'motherfucker", not "mother".
(there was a New Yorker? cartoon with an elderly woman commenting that she
loved how they kept saying "mother")
Nevertheless, s'posedly it caused IBM to choose a different name.
1:27 p.m.
Having worked at IBM ?in the day?, the ?official? reason (near as I could tell) was that
IBM didn?t want to anthropomorphise computers. So it was never ?memory?, it was always
?storage?. So we didn?t have RAM or ROM, we had storage or ROS. Disks were called DASD.
Main boards were called ?planars?.
TTFN - Guy
On Dec 19, 2018, at 1:16 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
I always liked the PS/2 cases. Just about every
one I've seen is tool less down to, and sometimes including, the system planar (as IBM
called it).
Typically unreliable source (my uncle who worked for IBM) said that the reason that they
REFUSED to call it a "motherboard" was due to some TV news broadcasts from
Merritt College where Black Panthers were saying "UP AGAINST THE WALL, MOTHER!"
I was there. They said 'motherfucker", not "mother".
(there was a New Yorker? cartoon with an elderly woman commenting that she loved how they
kept saying "mother")
Nevertheless, s'posedly it caused IBM to choose a different name.
1:29 p.m.
On 12/19/18 4:27 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
Having worked at IBM ?in the day?, the ?official?
reason (near as I could tell) was that IBM didn?t want to anthropomorphise computers. So
it was never ?memory?, it was always ?storage?. So we didn?t have RAM or ROM, we had
storage or ROS. Disks were called DASD. Main boards were called ?planars?.
And today, we have "Watson".
bill
4:18 a.m.
tis 2018-12-18 klockan 14:41 -0700 skrev Grant Taylor via cctalk:
On 12/18/2018 02:08 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
The PS/2 collectors ... any internet foras for them ?
I do have PS/2 55Sx (which i do intend to run aix and os/2 on.)
Which version of NT is current with an HP Netserver LCII ?
Cindy, I?m curious, is there really a market for
8086/88, 286, and
386 computers? What are folks using them for?
I know that there is an active IBM PS/2 collectors community that
would
be happy with anything in that range.
I think PS/2s range from 286 - (very few) Pentium. I don't /think/
there were any 8086 / 8088 PS/2s, but I could be mistaken.
9:44 a.m.
The PS/2 collectors ... any internet foras for them ?
I know one, he hangs out on Vogons.
Here's him talking about a haul of PS/2 stuff he got from me when I
moved across country.
https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=17341&start=8960#p445583
I do have PS/2 55Sx (which i do intend to run aix and
os/2 on.)
"wall" for for interest in AIX.
Which version of NT is current with an HP Netserver
LCII ?
I'd have to look it up. I'd guess either 3.5 or 4.0. (Given that that
covers most almost all of NT (by name)....)
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
9:57 a.m.
Nice? ps2? sash..? ?We? have? some? examples here but there are? things in these photos? I
have? never seen!
?
One? thing we? have? I? am curious? ?about is a? large? ?oversize? IBM monitor monochrome?
grey? screen ...
?
I wonder? what it? was? used? for...? aside? for a bigger? word processing screen.
?
?
Ed#
?
?
?
?
In a message dated 12/19/2018 10:45:01 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at
classiccmp.org writes:
?
The PS/2 collectors ... any internet foras for them ?
I know one, he hangs out on Vogons.
Here's him talking about a haul of PS/2 stuff he got from me when I
moved across country.
https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=17341&start=8960#p445583
I do have PS/2 55Sx (which i do intend to run aix and
os/2 on.)
"wall" for for interest in AIX.
Which version of NT is current with an HP Netserver
LCII ?
I'd have to look it up. I'd guess either 3.5 or 4.0. (Given that that
covers most almost all of NT (by name)....)
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
18 Dec
18 Dec
2:51 p.m.
On 12/18/2018 2:08 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
I would take a guess for custom hardware or software that never migrated
to Windows 13 or USB IIV. Ben.
On Dec 18, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Electronics Plus
via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I talked to a recycler today, who said he told his workers to throw out 2000
Model F keyboards last week, but he doubts they did it.
I also asked him about 8088, 2086, and 386 computers. He said they go
straight to the grinder. I told him I will buy them.
Then an HP dealer contacted me, wants to know if I buy old HP stuff. I told
him Apollo and earlier. Let me know if there is something specific HP you
want.
Cindy, I?m curious, is there really a market for 8086/88, 286, and 386 computers? What
are folks using them for?
Zane
5:48 p.m.
On Dec 18, 2018, at 2:51 PM, ben via cctalk <cctalk
at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I would take a guess for custom hardware or software that never migrated to Windows 13 or
USB IIV. Ben.
Being a photographer, I know there is a real market for this. Many high-end scanners will
only work with older Macintosh or Windows systems. I have a scanner that originally cost
$10,000, and the only software for it runs on Windows XP (thankfully I can use Parallels
Desktop to run XP and use it). Other, even more expensive scanners require even older
software that requires physical systems. I also have some pretty high-end Macintosh A/V
HW & SW that won?t run on newer systems.
I?m sure there is plenty of lab type equipment in this category as well.
Zane
8:53 p.m.
Indeed.
Just this year, we pulled our Pentium Pro box off our museum shelf and
did a fresh install of NT4 for a faculty member and their scientific
instrument.
--Jason
On 12/18/18 5:48 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
On Dec 18,
2018, at 2:51 PM, ben via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I would take a guess for custom hardware or software that never migrated to Windows 13 or
USB IIV. Ben.
Being a photographer, I know there is a real market for this. Many
high-end scanners will only work with older Macintosh or Windows systems. I have a
scanner that originally cost $10,000, and the only software for it runs on Windows XP
(thankfully I can use Parallels Desktop to run XP and use it). Other, even more expensive
scanners require even older software that requires physical systems. I also have some
pretty high-end Macintosh A/V HW & SW that won?t run on newer systems.
I?m sure there is plenty of lab type equipment in this category as well.
Zane
9:02 p.m.
On 12/18/2018 9:53 PM, Jason Howe via cctalk wrote:
Indeed.
Just this year, we pulled our Pentium Pro box off our museum shelf and
did a fresh install of NT4 for a faculty member and their scientific
instrument.
--Jason
Z80's and 8 bit IBM pc's are making a come back if you dig on the web.
The Walnut Creek CP/M Archive CD-ROM can be found here.
http://www.glitchwrks.com/2010/10/25/walnut-creek-cpm
Ben.
9:03 p.m.
I repaired a Spectrometer for Morgan University in Baltimore that had a
vintage computer at its heart, used for training purposes and perfectly
good. The computer just needed some TLC to get it back up and running. I
think it was a P-II as well, there was a control card that would only work
with the pre-PCI bus
b
On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 11:54 PM Jason Howe via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Indeed.
Just this year, we pulled our Pentium Pro box off our museum shelf and
did a fresh install of NT4 for a faculty member and their scientific
instrument.
--Jason
On 12/18/18 5:48 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> On Dec 18, 2018, at 2:51 PM, ben via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
>
> I would take a guess for custom hardware or software that never
migrated to
Windows 13 or USB IIV. Ben.
Being a photographer, I know there is a real
market for this. Many
high-end scanners will only work with older Macintosh or
Windows systems.
I have a scanner that originally cost $10,000, and the only software for it
runs on Windows XP (thankfully I can use Parallels Desktop to run XP and
use it). Other, even more expensive scanners require even older software
that requires physical systems. I also have some pretty high-end Macintosh
A/V HW & SW that won?t run on newer systems.
I?m sure there is plenty of lab type equipment in this category as well.
Zane
19 Dec
19 Dec
3:09 a.m.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 12:03:56AM -0500, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
I repaired a Spectrometer for Morgan University in
Baltimore that had a
vintage computer at its heart, used for training purposes and perfectly good.
The computer just needed some TLC to get it back up and running. I think it
was a P-II as well, there was a control card that would only work with the
pre-PCI bus
For what it's worth, PCI-to-ISA adaptors exist. Virtualisation will let you
emulate all of the other legacy devices which tend to be expected by OSs of
that era but which now do not exist on modern machines.
Unless the software is really weird and relies on something weird like
undocumented side-effects of the 286 CPU or 8 bit ISA DMA[0], this may be a way
forwards to keeping it running when that crusty old Pentium finally croaks.
[0] So forget trying to bodge a floppy controller onto a modern PC this way.
3:50 a.m.
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Peter Corlett wrote:
For what it's worth, PCI-to-ISA adaptors exist.
Virtualisation will let you
Really? Show me one that is 1) in current production, 2) offers the full
ISA bus (not just some decoded address lines and 8 data lines), 3) plugs
into a PCI slot.
Christian
4:04 a.m.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 12:50:21PM +0100, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Peter Corlett wrote:
In the bit you edited out, I already noted that stuff like ISA DMA won't work.
But here you go:
http://www.nextwarehouse.com/item/?206103
For what it's worth, PCI-to-ISA adaptors
exist. Virtualisation will let you
Really? Show me one that is 1) in current
production, 2) offers the full ISA
bus (not just some decoded address lines and 8 data lines), 3) plugs into a
PCI slot. 
7:41 a.m.
Really? Show me one that is 1) in current production,
2) offers the full ISA
bus (not just some decoded address lines and 8 data lines), 3) plugs into a
PCI slot.
Christian
Surprised no one has used something like an ATMega or cheap USB connected
ARM to build a USB to ISA adapter with tie in to DOSBox or some other
emulator.
--
: Ethan O'Toole
9:18 a.m.
On 12/19/18 7:41 AM, Ethan via cctalk wrote:
For what it's worth, I've never seen an ISA to USB or ISA to PCI
"bridge" implementation that was fully functional--and that includes P4
and later motherboards using a bridge chip. I've been round the block
with a couple of motherboard vendors.
Some leave out legacy DMA support; others are so incomplete that the
legacy drivers don't even see the ISA card in question or that the
memory space isn't accurately mapped.
Using an ATMega to access a 16-bit ISA board with full DMA, interrupt
and local ROM seems to be a bit beyond the MCU's capabilities.
I'll be happy to be proved wrong.
--Chuck
Really? Show
me one that is 1) in current production, 2) offers the
full ISA bus (not just some decoded address lines and 8 data lines),
3) plugs into a PCI slot.
Christian
Surprised no one has used something like an ATMega or cheap USB
connected ARM to build a USB to ISA adapter with tie in to DOSBox or
some other emulator.
5:50 p.m.
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
For what it's worth, I've never seen an ISA to USB or ISA to PCI
"bridge" implementation that was fully functional--and that includes P4
and later motherboards using a bridge chip. I've been round the block
with a couple of motherboard vendors.
I don't know how functional their solutions are and I've never had any of
their products nor I have anything to do with them, but I've had this
link: <http://www.arstech.com/> in my bookmarks just in case since 2005.
I guess if they have been in that business for so long now, they must have
been doing things right.
HTH,
Maciej
Really? Show me one that is 1) in current production,
2) offers the
full ISA bus (not just some decoded address lines and 8 data lines),
3) plugs into a PCI slot.
Christian
Surprised no one has used something like an ATMega or cheap USB
connected ARM to build a USB to ISA adapter with tie in to DOSBox or
some other emulator.
7:32 p.m.
I don't know how functional their solutions are
and I've never had any
of
their products nor I have anything to do with them, but I've had this
link: <http://www.arstech.com/> in my bookmarks just in case since
2005.
I guess if they have been in that business for so long now, they must
have
been doing things right.
I can tell you for a fact that they do NOT support DMA so a non-starter for
many things.....
9:24 p.m.
On 12/19/18 7:32 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote:
ISA is a bit more complex to emulate as it might at first appear. Real
ISA supports I/O port addressing, memory addressing, DMA and interrupts.
The last chipset that I'm aware of that directly supported real ISA was
the Intel 440BX family (440Bx, GX and ZX). Later chipsets use a
"bridge chip" that introduces incompatibilieis.
--Chuck
I don't
know how functional their solutions are and I've never had any
of
their products nor I have anything to do with them, but I've had this
link: <http://www.arstech.com/> in my bookmarks just in case since
2005.
I guess if they have been in that business for so long now, they must
have
been doing things right.
I can tell you for a fact that they do NOT support DMA so a non-starter for
many things.....
20 Dec
20 Dec
2:18 a.m.
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Ali wrote:
What kind of DMA though: ISA bus mastering or the Intel 8237 data mover?
Or neither? Either way, quite disappointing -- it all should be pretty
easy to reproduce with modern circuitry.
The software side is another matter however -- x86 real-mode OS drivers
should be easy to run virtualised, but other environments are a tad more
difficult to emulate.
Maciej
I don't
know how functional their solutions are and I've never had any
of
their products nor I have anything to do with them, but I've had this
link: <http://www.arstech.com/> in my bookmarks just in case since
2005.
I guess if they have been in that business for so long now, they must
have
been doing things right.
I can tell you for a fact that they do NOT support DMA so a non-starter for
many things.....
19 Dec
19 Dec
9:47 a.m.
On 12/19/2018 04:09 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote:
Unless the software is really weird and relies on
something weird like
undocumented side-effects of the 286 CPU or 8 bit ISA DMA[0], this may
be a way forwards to keeping it running when that crusty old Pentium
finally croaks.
I've run into more than a few things that aren't happy with emulation.
I know AIX for PS/2 is looking for something at PS/2 specific memory
addresses related to hardware.
I've also had a number of problems with different hypervisors emulating
different types of hardware that older OSs are happy (enough) with.
Things like IDE / SCSI / sound / network controllers.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
8:36 a.m.
I too have an old spectrometer that requires a PC with an ISA slot,
[Bomem MB series] and the interface card is ISA form.? It has been a
challenge to find old PC's with an ISA slot, most are recycled for
scrap.? The ones I have came from thrift stores, but now the thrift
stores are reluctant to carry old PC's.? No one wants them except a few
people with specific hardware/software requirements.
I also use an old PC that still has the ability to run both 3.5 and 5.25
inch floppies for transferring data to Vax/PDP-11 machines using PUTR.?
The 5.25 inch floppy was dropped from most late model PC's, the
controller chip wouldn't support it.
Doug
On 12/19/2018 12:03 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote:
I repaired a Spectrometer for Morgan University in
Baltimore that had a
vintage computer at its heart, used for training purposes and perfectly
good. The computer just needed some TLC to get it back up and running. I
think it was a P-II as well, there was a control card that would only work
with the pre-PCI bus
b
On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 11:54 PM Jason Howe via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Indeed.
>
> Just this year, we pulled our Pentium Pro box off our museum shelf and
> did a fresh install of NT4 for a faculty member and their scientific
> instrument.
>
> --Jason
>
>
>
> On 12/18/18 5:48 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
>>> On Dec 18, 2018, at 2:51 PM, ben via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>>> I would take a guess for custom hardware or software that never
> migrated to Windows 13 or USB IIV. Ben.
>> Being a photographer, I know there is a real market for this. Many
> high-end scanners will only work with older Macintosh or Windows systems.
> I have a scanner that originally cost $10,000, and the only software for it
> runs on Windows XP (thankfully I can use Parallels Desktop to run XP and
> use it). Other, even more expensive scanners require even older software
> that requires physical systems. I also have some pretty high-end Macintosh
> A/V HW & SW that won?t run on newer systems.
>> I?m sure there is plenty of lab type equipment in this category as well.
>>
>> Zane
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
21 Dec
21 Dec
12:07 a.m.
I teach 7th - 12th grade Science (all of them) and Computing at a very
rural Little Red Brick K-12 Schoolhouse beyond The Middle of Nowhere in
Montana. Even waaaaaay out here, there are kids who just love, love, love
retro 80s games, and no, emulators will not cut it, thank you very much.
We recently received a graciously-donated SX-64 (a Commodore 64 with a
color display, keyboard, floppy disk drive, etc., integrated in a box), and
the kids stand in line waiting excitedly to run simulations (some might
incorrectly confuse them with games) and create sonic renderings (again,
some might confuse this with playing music). The system came with a C
Power compiler, assembler, and linker, and the built-in BASIC has plenty of
capabilities to enable students to create pretty much anything they can
imagine. I acquired a second SX-64 that, despite a somewhat wonky
keyboard, is just as popular as the first one we received.
A really well-designed and executed game will be a hit, even with chunky,
clunky graphics with only 16 colors, half of which are black, and goofy,
calliope-like music! Text-based games based on great stories still have
rabid fans, with new audiences as each successive generation that discovers
them. Photorealistic graphics tend to highlight flaws in 3-D models, such
as eyes that don't seem to be looking in quite the right directions to
represent focus at an appropriate point. Our visual system craves matching
what we're currently seeing with what we recall seeing before, and even
tiny dissonances get our acute attention.
This detracts from playability by being a major distraction, even if it's
happening at a subconscious level. Great stories transcend
much-less-than-perfect special effects, precisely because they allow the
players' imaginations to fill in the missing pieces. The fans of retro
games want to escape the virtual reality of high-resolution graphics and
all of the gore that's typically associated with it. The results of the
desensitization of young people through realistic-looking violence and,
frankly, pornography, are pretty clear from the suicide, mass shooting, and
sexual assault statistics and headlines.
8:51 a.m.
On 12/21/18 1:07 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote:
no, emulators will not cut it
Would you please expand upon that?
Are you saying that things like a Raspberry Pi running RetroPi (I think
that's the name) don't suffice / satisfy as the real thing that they are
emulating?
Or are you including things like the new retro consoles that original
vendors are coming out with? (The palm sized SNES from Nintendo comes
to mind.)
Do you have any idea why these newer things are not cutting it?
I've also had great success with running '90s era games in DOSBox on
what ever computer happens to be handy. Does that not work at all for
you / your crew?
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
2:30 p.m.
On Dec 21, 2018, at 8:51 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 12/21/18 1:07 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote:
I?m afraid I?ll have to agree with Jim here. When talking about Retro Gaming, in most
cases, the Raspberry Pi, while better than nothing, aren?t as good as the real thing,
especially in regards to video and audio.
I was seriously excited about the Retron77 (Atari 2600) that was recently released, but on
getting it, I found that it wasn?t able to play a fair number of the cartridges I?ve tried
with it.
DOS games never had *KNOWN* set of hardware they?d be running on, as a result I think
they?re likely more forgiving.
Now despite what I just said about the Raspberry Pi, I have three of them around here, one
is a small VAX running OpenVMS 7.3, one is a DPS-8 running Multics, and the other a KL-10B
running TOPS-20. I had dreams of building a VMS cluster of RPi 3+?s, but have kind of
gone off that idea, due to the superior performance I get using my VMware Cluster to host
VAX instances.
Zane
no, emulators will not cut it
Would you please expand upon that?
Are you saying that things like a Raspberry Pi running RetroPi (I think that's the
name) don't suffice / satisfy as the real thing that they are emulating?
Or are you including things like the new retro consoles that original vendors are coming
out with? (The palm sized SNES from Nintendo comes to mind.)
Do you have any idea why these newer things are not cutting it?
I've also had great success with running '90s era games in DOSBox on what ever
computer happens to be handy. Does that not work at all for you / your crew?
5:20 p.m.
On 12/21/18 3:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
I?m afraid I?ll have to agree with Jim here. When
talking about
Retro Gaming, in most cases, the Raspberry Pi, while better than nothing,
aren?t as good as the real thing, especially in regards to video
and audio.
There's nothing to be afraid of.
I was asking from a position of ignorance because I've not used either.
I have some colleagues at work that use the Raspberry Pi. So I know of,
but not about, it.
I was seriously excited about the Retron77 (Atari
2600) that was recently
released, but on getting it, I found that it wasn?t able to play a
fair number of the cartridges I?ve tried with it.
:-(
DOS games never had *KNOWN* set of hardware they?d be
running on,
as a result I think they?re likely more forgiving.
Now despite what I just said about the Raspberry Pi, I have three of
them around here, one is a small VAX running OpenVMS 7.3, one is a DPS-8
running Multics, and the other a KL-10B running TOPS-20. I had dreams
of building a VMS cluster of RPi 3+?s, but have kind of gone off that
idea, due to the superior performance I get using my VMware Cluster to
host VAX instances.
I'll have to check out the DPS-8 and KL-10B.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
7:09 p.m.
On Dec 21, 2018, at 5:20 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 12/21/18 3:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
The Raspberry Pi?s are a pretty impressive little tool for situations where they have
enough resources. For the purpose of emulation, they?re a great platform. The problem is
less with the Raspberry Pi, and more with emulation as a whole. In other words, this is a
software issue, not a hardware issue.
I?m afraid I?ll have to agree with Jim here.
When talking about Retro Gaming, in most cases, the Raspberry Pi, while better than
nothing, aren?t as good as the real thing, especially in regards to video and audio.
There's nothing to be afraid of.
I was asking from a position of ignorance because I've not used either. I have some
colleagues at work that use the Raspberry Pi. So I know of, but not about, it. Now despite
what I just said about the Raspberry Pi, I have three of them around here, one is a small
VAX running OpenVMS 7.3, one is a DPS-8 running Multics, and the other a KL-10B running
TOPS-20. I had dreams of building a VMS cluster of RPi 3+?s, but have kind of gone off
that idea, due to the superior performance I get using my VMware Cluster to host VAX
instances.
I'll have to check out the DPS-8 and KL-10B.
9:25 p.m.
On 12/21/2018 8:09 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
For the DPS-8, there really is only one option, and
sadly GCOS-8 isn?t available, only Multics. Still it?s pretty cool to finally be able to
use Multics, and it?s a lot more user friendly than GCOS-8 (I used to be a Systems Analyst
at a DPS-8 mainframe site).
http://www.avanthar.com/healyzh/decemulation/Honeywell_DPS-8.html
For those unaware, my DEC Emulation pages had to move late last year, due to my ISP of
~20 years being ransacked by a Crook. I managed to do quite a bit of work updating the
pages earlier this year.
Zane
So where are your pages?
Google seems to have changed the algorithm to randomly match on any
word, so searching for DEC Emulation, most likely get a Christmas pajamas.
Ben.
9:37 p.m.
On Dec 21, 2018, at 9:25 PM, ben via cctalk <cctalk
at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 12/21/2018 8:09 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
Did the above URL not work? That?s one of the non-DEC pages.
Unfortunately Google still seems to only turn up old mirrors.
Zane
For the DPS-8, there really is only one option,
and sadly GCOS-8 isn?t available, only Multics. Still it?s pretty cool to finally be able
to use Multics, and it?s a lot more user friendly than GCOS-8 (I used to be a Systems
Analyst at a DPS-8 mainframe site).
http://www.avanthar.com/healyzh/decemulation/Honeywell_DPS-8.html
For those unaware, my DEC Emulation pages had to move late last year, due to my ISP of
~20 years being ransacked by a Crook. I managed to do quite a bit of work updating the
pages earlier this year.
Zane
So where are your pages?
Google seems to have changed the algorithm to randomly match on any word, so searching
for DEC Emulation, most likely get a Christmas pajamas.
Ben. 
5 Apr
5 Apr
4:08 p.m.
New subject: Raspberry Pi for vaxen turbochannel
I've had a plan to set up a raspberry Pi as the mopd and NFS server to bit
my vaxstation for a while. To be a self contained demo I could probably fit
it inside the vaxstation.
One of the annoyances is that it would need another power cord and need a
place to mount it inside.
It occurs to me that the turbochannel slots have 4A each. It would be
entirely possible to print a whole open source board like the raspberry Pi
(or banana Pi, etc) on a turbochannel card and kill two birds with one
stone.
It would give a nice solid place to mount the pi with access to the ports
on the back and power supplied by the vaxstation.
Is this something that would be of interest to anyone other than me?
On Fri 21 Dec 2018, 22:09 Zane Healy via cctalk, <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Dec 21, 2018, at 5:20 PM, Grant Taylor via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 12/21/18 3:30 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> I?m afraid I?ll have to agree with Jim here. When talking about Retro
Gaming,
in most cases, the Raspberry Pi, while better than nothing, aren?t
as good as the real thing, especially in regards to video and audio.
There's nothing to be afraid of.
I was asking from a position of ignorance because I've not used either.
I have
some colleagues at work that use the Raspberry Pi. So I know of,
but not about, it.
The Raspberry Pi?s are a pretty impressive little tool for situations
where they have enough resources. For the purpose of emulation, they?re a
great platform. The problem is less with the Raspberry Pi, and more with
emulation as a whole. In other words, this is a software issue, not a
hardware issue.
> Now despite what I just said about the
Raspberry Pi, I have three of
them around here, one is a small VAX running OpenVMS
7.3, one is a DPS-8
running Multics, and the other a KL-10B running TOPS-20. I had dreams of
building a VMS cluster of RPi 3+?s, but have kind of gone off that idea,
due to the superior performance I get using my VMware Cluster to host VAX
instances.
I'll have to check out the DPS-8 and KL-10B.
For the PDP-10, my favorite is KLH10.
http://www.avanthar.com/healyzh/decemulation/pdp10emu.html
For the DPS-8, there really is only one option, and sadly GCOS-8 isn?t
available, only Multics. Still it?s pretty cool to finally be able to use
Multics, and it?s a lot more user friendly than GCOS-8 (I used to be a
Systems Analyst at a DPS-8 mainframe site).
http://www.avanthar.com/healyzh/decemulation/Honeywell_DPS-8.html
For those unaware, my DEC Emulation pages had to move late last year, due
to my ISP of ~20 years being ransacked by a Crook. I managed to do quite a
bit of work updating the pages earlier this year.
Zane
31 Dec
31 Dec
3:33 p.m.
Hi Grant,
It can be different stroke for different folks. For many, it's the layout,
feel, and sound of the keyboard, joystick, buttons, etc. There is a huge
market for early "clicky" keyboards with non-linear actions (keys somewhat
resist pressure until a threshold is passed, then they allow full travel) -
some are going for thousands of dollars ... each. For others, it's the
graphics on a real, honest-to-goodness glass tube TV or monitor, smeary
color blocks, bleepy-bloopy sounds, and all. It may make no sense to some
people, but crystal-clear digital graphics on an LCD display look nothing
like the originals on glass tubes, and yes, we have a couple of 27-inch
analog TVs with both VHF and NTSC inputs.
A big problem with emulators that attempt to be all things to all games, as
was pointed out, is that there are timing issues when not running on native
hardware that's not multitasking with a million things being spawned and
generating interrupts that the emulator has no way to predict and account
for accurately. Many games depended on the predictability of the hardware
to perform certain things behind-the-scenes that fail running in
emulators. Then, there's the problem of the timing being different from
platform to platform with wholly different hardware, OS, and other
application interactions.
I was the first in the U.S. to receive a Raspberry Pi (March 22, 2012, from
the first batch of 10,000) and established one of the first Raspberry Jam
enthusiast gatherings in the world, at the Computer History Museum. We've
been running the emulators for the Pi, and while they're fine for showing
what the games were _like_, they aren't the _same_, and we have all of the
original game software and hardware right there to compare. I've gotten
hundreds of Pii (as in the plural of octopus is octopi) since then, as they
really fulfill the educational mission of the Raspberry Pi Foundation, and
they've been given to students where I teach, as well as kids participating
in after-school activities.
All the Best,
Jim
On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 9:51 AM Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 12/21/18 1:07 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote:
no, emulators will not cut it
Would you please expand upon that?
Are you saying that things like a Raspberry Pi running RetroPi (I think
that's the name) don't suffice / satisfy as the real thing that they are
emulating?
Or are you including things like the new retro consoles that original
vendors are coming out with? (The palm sized SNES from Nintendo comes
to mind.)
Do you have any idea why these newer things are not cutting it?
I've also had great success with running '90s era games in DOSBox on
what ever computer happens to be handy. Does that not work at all for
you / your crew?
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
19 Dec
19 Dec
12:49 a.m.
I wonder if I will face theses issuea with the cof ax scanner software and a megabux
retired scanner we were gifted.. .. thing Is bw only..
Sent from AOL Mobile Mail
On Tuesday, December 18, 2018 Jason Howe via cctalk <jason at smbfc.net; cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
Indeed.
Just this year, we pulled our Pentium Pro box off our museum shelf and
did a fresh install of NT4 for a faculty member and their scientific
instrument.
--Jason
On 12/18/18 5:48 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
On Dec 18,
2018, at 2:51 PM, ben via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I would take a guess for custom hardware or software that never migrated to Windows 13 or
USB IIV. Ben.
Being a photographer, I know there is a real market for this. Many
high-end scanners will only work with older Macintosh or Windows systems. I have a scanner
that originally cost $10,000, and the only software for it runs on Windows XP (thankfully
I can use Parallels Desktop to run XP and use it). Other, even more expensive scanners
require even older software that requires physical systems. I also have some pretty
high-end Macintosh A/V HW & SW that won?t run on newer systems.
I?m sure there is plenty of lab type equipment in this category as well.
Zane
8:15 a.m.
On Dec 19, 2018, at 12:49 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I wonder if I will face theses issuea with the cof ax scanner software and a megabux
retired scanner we were gifted.. .. thing Is bw only..
With old scanners, always look at what the I/O interface is, and see if it?s a model of
scanner supported by VueScan. VueScan is *amazing* and produces results that are about as
good as SilverFast with my Epson V850 Pro. It also keeps some vintage scanners around
here running.
Zane
9:23 a.m.
On 12/19/18 11:15 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
I still have and use the first scanner bought by the CS Department
I used to work at. An HP with a SCSI interface. Works great,
supported by SANE.
bill
On Dec 19, 2018, at 12:49 AM, ED SHARPE via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I wonder if I will face theses issuea with the cof ax scanner software and a megabux
retired scanner we were gifted.. .. thing Is bw only..
With old scanners, always look at what the I/O interface is, and see if it?s a model of
scanner supported by VueScan. VueScan is *amazing* and produces results that are about as
good as SilverFast with my Epson V850 Pro. It also keeps some vintage scanners around
here running.
9:43 a.m.
On 2018-12-19 12:23, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
I still have and use the first scanner bought by the
CS Department
I used to work at. An HP with a SCSI interface. Works great,
supported by SANE.
I had an HP IIcx with ADF. (before I moved). Was great, scanned without
paying attention to it. Yes, using SANE and some scripts. All what I was
missing is tabloid size ...
9:49 a.m.
On 12/19/18 12:43 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote:
On 2018-12-19 12:23, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
wrote:
Pretty sure that's the one. Got stuff piled on it at the moment
so I can't read the model number.
bill
I still have and use the first scanner bought by
the CS Department
I used to work at. An HP with a SCSI interface. Works great,
supported by SANE.
I had an HP IIcx with ADF. (before I moved). Was great, scanned without
paying attention to it. Yes, using SANE and some scripts. All what I was
missing is tabloid size ...
12:59 p.m.
>> I still have and use the first scanner bought
by the CS Department
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
Pretty sure that's the one. Got stuff piled on it
at the moment
so I can't read the model number.
An inherent design problem with flatbed scanners!
In the college computer lab, we put a plexiglass pyramid on top of the lid
of the scanner as the only way to keep it from being used as a table and
shelf.
1:06 p.m.
On 12/19/18 3:59 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
So true.
I just wish I could find the sheet feeder for it. We never bought
it and I have never seen on eBay or anything.
bill
>> I
still have and use the first scanner bought by the CS Department
On Wed, 19 Dec
2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
Pretty sure that's the one.? Got stuff piled
on it at the moment
so I can't read the model number.
An inherent design problem with flatbed scanners!
In the college computer lab, we put a plexiglass pyramid on top of the
lid of the scanner as the only way to keep it from being used as a table
and shelf.
20 Dec
20 Dec
12:17 a.m.
On 2018-12-19 16:06, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
On 12/19/18 3:59 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
So true.
I just wish I could find the sheet feeder for it. We never bought
it and I have never seen on eBay or anything.
I got mine on ebay, and there is one now ...
>> I
still have and use the first scanner bought by the CS Department
On Wed, 19 Dec
2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
Pretty sure that's the one.? Got stuff piled
on it at the moment
so I can't read the model number.
An inherent design problem with flatbed scanners!
In the college computer lab, we put a plexiglass pyramid on top of the
lid of the scanner as the only way to keep it from being used as a table
and shelf.
19 Dec
19 Dec
1:09 p.m.
On 2018-12-19 3:59 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Brilliant!
>> I
still have and use the first scanner bought by the CS Department
On Wed, 19 Dec
2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
Pretty sure that's the one.? Got stuff piled
on it at the moment
so I can't read the model number.
An inherent design problem with flatbed scanners!
In the college computer lab, we put a plexiglass pyramid on top of the
lid of the scanner as the only way to keep it from being used as a table
and shelf.
1:09 p.m.
On 2018-12-19 3:59 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Brilliant!
>> I
still have and use the first scanner bought by the CS Department
On Wed, 19 Dec
2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
Pretty sure that's the one.? Got stuff piled
on it at the moment
so I can't read the model number.
An inherent design problem with flatbed scanners!
In the college computer lab, we put a plexiglass pyramid on top of the
lid of the scanner as the only way to keep it from being used as a table
and shelf.
1:14 p.m.
On Dec 19, 2018, at 1:09 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 2018-12-19 3:59 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
Brilliant!
Agreed, I should consider doing that with mine. It?s currently buried in a stack of
slides and negatives. It?s also common to have books and magazines up there.
Zane
>> I
still have and use the first scanner bought by the CS Department
On Wed, 19 Dec
2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
Pretty sure that's the one. Got stuff piled
on it at the moment
so I can't read the model number.
An inherent design problem with flatbed scanners!
In the college computer lab, we put a plexiglass pyramid on top of the
lid of the scanner as the only way to keep it from being used as a table
and shelf.
10:43 a.m.
Zane -? ?thanks? for? reminder.? Yes? this? scanner? ? goes? scssi? to? a? large? cofax?
processing? card that is? supposed? to? do? fast? working magic... but? die? to faster?
?PC and CPU? speeds? today? may not? be? really needed? or? will HANG!
?
We? do? use the? vuscan? for? ?use? with a? hp scanner that? has a? 4x5? negative? scanner
attachment on it.? ?It? will scan? ?35 mm? to? 4x5....? ?really? not? ?great resolution?
for? 35 mm to? 11x14? size? ?but? ?for? ?4x5? to? 11x14? or? 8x10? ?works? just? ?fine.
?
Zane? yea? amazing I was? going to? ?scrap? that? scanner? now it is a part of the
workforce...
I DO? WANT? A? EPSON 800 series that? goes up to 8x10? someday......though.....?
?
(Back in my? youth? in the mid 70s I? did? ?advertising photography? for? products and? ?
brochures? etc... and? ?many? people wanted? ? ?image of n? 4x5 transparency ... some?
required? 8x10? even.? ?8x10? not? cheap? to? shoot.... $5 a? sheet? purchase? and $5? a
sheet? processing? if? you? took to? lab. )
?
?
OK? ? so? for? my? 4x5? stuff? ?this old? scanner? works and? also we? have ad? shots to?
be scanned? at museum too ... one? example is the? REGENCY ( IDEA ELECTRONICS)? ad? shot?
transparency collection? ( They made? first transistor? radio and all kids of? great?
goodies? ... uhf converters, radio transceivers, public services band monitors? and
more-)? Now? if? any other of? you have? anything? on? Ektachrome? ?scan it? now since as?
time progresses the? colors? will get? even crappier!!!!? ? I love? really old? ?4x5?
KODACHROME? ?transparencies? the? colors are still? a beauty... the? reds are? majestic
and vibrant!! ( search? internet? for? some of the? WW2? color? stuff...? amazing)?
reason?? Aniline? dies? ?in Kodachrome vs? the crappy>ass organic? dyes in the
Ektachrome)....? Anyway...? Message here ... scan any and all color? materials now? not?
later as most? will just? get? worse? but Kodachrome? not? as? bad? and? EVERY other?
?medium.
?
we? got a? large? group of? Burroughs? 35mm? ad? shots? on? transparency that are in the?
Q? ?for? scanning...? pc? mini and mainframe? all across? the board.? stuff? will?
definite? print up better than? scans? from magazines when I? need? a? photo? ?for a?
display.
?
?
Ed#? ?SMECC
?
?
In a message dated 12/19/2018 9:15:44 AM US Mountain Standard Time, healyzh at
avanthar.com writes:
?
On Dec 19, 2018, at 12:49 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I wonder if I will face theses issuea with the cof ax scanner software and a megabux
retired scanner we were gifted.. .. thing Is bw only..
With old scanners, always look at what the I/O interface is, and see if it?s a model of
scanner supported by VueScan. VueScan is *amazing* and produces results that are about as
good as SilverFast with my Epson V850 Pro. It also keeps some vintage scanners around here
running.
Zane
12:07 p.m.
The Epson V850-Pro does pretty good at 8x10, and produces scans capable of being printed
at about 30?x40?. I *WISH* I could scan my 11x14 negatives. To be able to do well
requires either a vintage flatbed, or better yet a good Drum Scanner. Realistically, I
need a good Drum Scanner, which in turn will require a Classic Mac to drive it (since I
don?t want to use a Windows PC).
You don?t want to know what it costs to shoot 4x5 transparencies, let alone 8x10. I have
a project, that to pull off, is probably going to require 8x10 transparencies. I?m mainly
working with 8x10 and 11x14 B&W, in fact I have a whole pile of 8x10 film that needs
to be processed (I?m caught up on the 11x14). This is also causing problems for my
Classic Computers, since it fights for space (my PDP-11/44 actually has two enlargers
sitting on top of it).
I have considered a couple photo projects using the Commodore 64 as the brains.
Zane
On Dec 19, 2018, at 10:43 AM, ED SHARPE <couryhouse
at aol.com> wrote:
Zane - thanks for reminder. Yes this scanner goes scssi to a large cofax
processing card that is supposed to do fast working magic... but die to faster
PC and CPU speeds today may not be really needed or will HANG!
We do use the vuscan for use with a hp scanner that has a 4x5 negative
scanner attachment on it. It will scan 35 mm to 4x5.... really not great
resolution for 35 mm to 11x14 size but for 4x5 to 11x14 or 8x10 works
just fine.
Zane yea amazing I was going to scrap that scanner now it is a part of the
workforce...
I DO WANT A EPSON 800 series that goes up to 8x10 someday......though.....
(Back in my youth in the mid 70s I did advertising photography for products and
brochures etc... and many people wanted image of n 4x5 transparency ... some
required 8x10 even. 8x10 not cheap to shoot.... $5 a sheet purchase and $5 a
sheet processing if you took to lab. )
OK so for my 4x5 stuff this old scanner works and also we have ad shots to
be scanned at museum too ... one example is the REGENCY ( IDEA ELECTRONICS) ad shot
transparency collection ( They made first transistor radio and all kids of great
goodies ... uhf converters, radio transceivers, public services band monitors and more-)
Now if any other of you have anything on Ektachrome scan it now since as time
progresses the colors will get even crappier!!!! I love really old 4x5
KODACHROME transparencies the colors are still a beauty... the reds are majestic
and vibrant!! ( search internet for some of the WW2 color stuff... amazing)
reason? Aniline dies in Kodachrome vs the crappy>ass organic dyes in the
Ektachrome).... Anyway... Message here ... scan any and all color materials now not
later as most will just get worse but Kodachrome not as bad and EVERY other
medium.
we got a large group of Burroughs 35mm ad shots on transparency that are in the
Q for scanning... pc mini and mainframe all across the board. stuff will
definite print up better than scans from magazines when I need a photo for a
display.
Ed# SMECC
In a message dated 12/19/2018 9:15:44 AM US Mountain Standard Time, healyzh at
avanthar.com writes:
On Dec 19, 2018, at 12:49 AM, ED SHARPE via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <>> wrote:
I wonder if I will face theses issuea with the cof ax scanner software and a megabux
retired scanner we were gifted.. .. thing Is bw only..
With old scanners, always look at what the I/O interface is, and see if it?s a model of
scanner supported by VueScan. VueScan is *amazing* and produces results that are about as
good as SilverFast with my Epson V850 Pro. It also keeps some vintage scanners around here
running.
Zane
12:20 p.m.
OK? yea? Zane that is the? Epson scanner? I hear? so much? good? about!
?
I miss? my? sinar....? had? ?4x5 5x7 and? 8 x10? backs? (it? was the old orig? NORMA.? ?
what a? beauty... when I started? comp? biz the? sale of that? . cant? complain? ? ?comp
biz? ..? still have my speed graphic? and? my uncles? 4x5? graphic? view? monorail camera?
and? ?8x10? ansco? ?studio camera? ?I started with...
?
one? thing? nice but? going unused is? the 5x7 durst? enlarger? with pin register vacuum?
easel...? ?has? ?hi? power agfa? color? head on it.? ? used to be messenger graphics...
they? used to? make? separations? with it until they? got their? scanner... bill hammer?
had? 2? a? 5x7 and an 8x10..? some one else? got the? 8x10 (? darn!)? but? that is how? I?
learned there was a? 5x7? one...? ? ?for? 8 x 10 bw? we had a cast? iron Elwood? diffusion
enlarger..? great? for? printing? 8x10? and? 6 1/2? x? 8 1/2? glass plates? from? ?the?
turn of the century....
?
I? think I? will give the durst to the? smecc? project.? ?I still want to see it!? (? but?
would like to have the? room in? ?at? home? free)
?
?
Ed#
In a message dated 12/19/2018 1:07:31 PM US Mountain Standard Time, healyzh at
avanthar.com writes:
?
The Epson V850-Pro does pretty good at 8x10, and produces scans capable of being printed
at about 30?x40?. ?I *WISH* I could scan my 11x14 negatives. ?To be able to do well
requires either a vintage flatbed, or better yet a good Drum Scanner. ?Realistically, I
need a good Drum Scanner, which in turn will require a Classic Mac to drive it (since I
don?t want to use a Windows PC).
?
You don?t want to know what it costs to shoot 4x5 transparencies, let alone 8x10. ?I have
a project, that to pull off, is probably going to require 8x10 transparencies. ?I?m mainly
working with 8x10 and 11x14 B&W, in fact I have a whole pile of 8x10 film that needs
to be processed (I?m caught up on the 11x14). ?This is also causing problems for my
Classic Computers, since it fights for space (my PDP-11/44 actually has two enlargers
sitting on top of it).
?
I have considered a couple photo projects using the Commodore 64 as the brains.
?
Zane
?
?
?
On Dec 19, 2018, at 10:43 AM, ED SHARPE <couryhouse at aol.com> wrote:
Zane -? ?thanks? for? reminder.? Yes? this? scanner? ? goes? scssi? to? a? large? cofax?
processing? card that is? supposed? to? do? fast? working magic... but? die? to faster?
?PC and CPU? speeds? today? may not? be? really needed? or? will HANG!
?
We? do? use the? vuscan? for? ?use? with a? hp scanner that? has a? 4x5? negative? scanner
attachment on it.? ?It? will scan? ?35 mm? to? 4x5....? ?really? not? ?great resolution?
for? 35 mm to? 11x14? size? ?but? ?for? ?4x5? to? 11x14? or? 8x10? ?works? just? ?fine.
?
Zane? yea? amazing I was? going to? ?scrap? that? scanner? now it is a part of the
workforce...
I DO? WANT? A? EPSON 800 series that? goes up to 8x10? someday......though.....
?
(Back in my? youth? in the mid 70s I? did? ?advertising photography? for? products and? ?
brochures? etc... and? ?many? people wanted? ? ?image of n? 4x5 transparency ... some?
required? 8x10? even.? ?8x10? not? cheap? to? shoot.... $5 a? sheet? purchase? and $5? a
sheet? processing? if? you? took to? lab. )
?
?
OK? ? so? for? my? 4x5? stuff? ?this old? scanner? works and? also we? have ad? shots to?
be scanned? at museum too ... one? example is the? REGENCY ( IDEA ELECTRONICS)? ad? shot?
transparency collection? ( They made? first transistor? radio and all kids of? great?
goodies? ... uhf converters, radio transceivers, public services band monitors? and
more-)? Now? if? any other of? you have? anything? on? Ektachrome? ?scan it? now since as?
time progresses the? colors? will get? even crappier!!!!? ? I love? really old? ?4x5?
KODACHROME? ?transparencies? the? colors are still? a beauty... the? reds are? majestic
and vibrant!! ( search? internet? for? some of the? WW2? color? stuff...? amazing)?
reason?? Aniline? dies? ?in Kodachrome vs? the crappy>ass organic? dyes in the
Ektachrome)....? Anyway...? Message here ... scan any and all color? materials now? not?
later as most? will just? get? worse? but Kodachrome? not? as? bad? and? EVERY other?
?medium.
?
we? got a? large? group of? Burroughs? 35mm? ad? shots? on? transparency that are in the?
Q? ?for? scanning...? pc? mini and mainframe? all across? the board.? stuff? will?
definite? print up better than? scans? from magazines when I? need? a? photo? ?for a?
display.
?
?
Ed#? ?SMECC
?
?
In a message dated 12/19/2018 9:15:44 AM US Mountain Standard Time,
healyzh at avanthar.com writes:
?
On Dec 19, 2018, at 12:49 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I wonder if I will face theses issuea with the cof ax scanner software and a megabux
retired scanner we were gifted.. .. thing Is bw only..
With old scanners, always look at what the I/O interface is, and see if it?s a model of
scanner supported by VueScan. VueScan is *amazing* and produces results that are about as
good as SilverFast with my Epson V850 Pro. It also keeps some vintage scanners around here
running.
Zane
12:54 p.m.
I?d like an 8x10 enlarger, but I don?t regret passing on the Elwood that turned up in the
area about a year ago. It was in *sorry* shape. I do regret missing a Zone VI 5x7 in
November. My main enlarger is a 4x5 Beseler. For 4x5 I?m using Horseman, for 8x10
Deardorff, and for 11x14 I have a Kodak 2D that?s likely over 100 years old.
I?m currently trying to figure out how to free up some of the space taken by classic
computers, and other stuff, to make room for building out a proper darkroom. Even if I
get a proper darkroom, finding room for an 8x10 enlarger would be a challenge, they they
make my PDP-11/44 and other DEC HW look small.
Zane
On Dec 19, 2018, at 12:20 PM, ED SHARPE <couryhouse
at aol.com> wrote:
OK yea Zane that is the Epson scanner I hear so much good about!
I miss my sinar.... had 4x5 5x7 and 8 x10 backs (it was the old orig NORMA.
what a beauty... when I started comp biz the sale of that . cant complain comp
biz .. still have my speed graphic and my uncles 4x5 graphic view monorail camera
and 8x10 ansco studio camera I started with...
one thing nice but going unused is the 5x7 durst enlarger with pin register vacuum
easel... has hi power agfa color head on it. used to be messenger graphics...
they used to make separations with it until they got their scanner... bill hammer
had 2 a 5x7 and an 8x10.. some one else got the 8x10 ( darn!) but that is how I
learned there was a 5x7 one... for 8 x 10 bw we had a cast iron Elwood diffusion
enlarger.. great for printing 8x10 and 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 glass plates from the
turn of the century....
I think I will give the durst to the smecc project. I still want to see it! ( but
would like to have the room in at home free)
Ed#
In a message dated 12/19/2018 1:07:31 PM US Mountain Standard Time, healyzh at
avanthar.com writes:
The Epson V850-Pro does pretty good at 8x10, and produces scans capable of being printed
at about 30?x40?. I *WISH* I could scan my 11x14 negatives. To be able to do well
requires either a vintage flatbed, or better yet a good Drum Scanner. Realistically, I
need a good Drum Scanner, which in turn will require a Classic Mac to drive it (since I
don?t want to use a Windows PC).
You don?t want to know what it costs to shoot 4x5 transparencies, let alone 8x10. I have
a project, that to pull off, is probably going to require 8x10 transparencies. I?m mainly
working with 8x10 and 11x14 B&W, in fact I have a whole pile of 8x10 film that needs
to be processed (I?m caught up on the 11x14). This is also causing problems for my
Classic Computers, since it fights for space (my PDP-11/44 actually has two enlargers
sitting on top of it).
I have considered a couple photo projects using the Commodore 64 as the brains.
Zane
On Dec 19, 2018, at 10:43 AM, ED SHARPE <couryhouse at aol.com <>> wrote:
Zane - thanks for reminder. Yes this scanner goes scssi to a large cofax
processing card that is supposed to do fast working magic... but die to faster
PC and CPU speeds today may not be really needed or will HANG!
We do use the vuscan for use with a hp scanner that has a 4x5 negative
scanner attachment on it. It will scan 35 mm to 4x5.... really not great
resolution for 35 mm to 11x14 size but for 4x5 to 11x14 or 8x10 works
just fine.
Zane yea amazing I was going to scrap that scanner now it is a part of the
workforce...
I DO WANT A EPSON 800 series that goes up to 8x10 someday......though.....
(Back in my youth in the mid 70s I did advertising photography for products and
brochures etc... and many people wanted image of n 4x5 transparency ... some
required 8x10 even. 8x10 not cheap to shoot.... $5 a sheet purchase and $5 a
sheet processing if you took to lab. )
OK so for my 4x5 stuff this old scanner works and also we have ad shots to
be scanned at museum too ... one example is the REGENCY ( IDEA ELECTRONICS) ad shot
transparency collection ( They made first transistor radio and all kids of great
goodies ... uhf converters, radio transceivers, public services band monitors and more-)
Now if any other of you have anything on Ektachrome scan it now since as time
progresses the colors will get even crappier!!!! I love really old 4x5
KODACHROME transparencies the colors are still a beauty... the reds are majestic
and vibrant!! ( search internet for some of the WW2 color stuff... amazing)
reason? Aniline dies in Kodachrome vs the crappy>ass organic dyes in the
Ektachrome).... Anyway... Message here ... scan any and all color materials now not
later as most will just get worse but Kodachrome not as bad and EVERY other
medium.
we got a large group of Burroughs 35mm ad shots on transparency that are in the
Q for scanning... pc mini and mainframe all across the board. stuff will
definite print up better than scans from magazines when I need a photo for a
display.
Ed# SMECC
In a message dated 12/19/2018 9:15:44 AM US Mountain Standard Time, healyzh at
avanthar.com <> writes:
On Dec 19, 2018, at 12:49 AM, ED SHARPE via
cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org <>> wrote:
I wonder if I will face theses issuea with the cof ax scanner software and a megabux
retired scanner we were gifted.. .. thing Is bw only..
With old scanners, always look at what the I/O interface is, and see if it?s a model of
scanner supported by VueScan. VueScan is *amazing* and produces results that are about as
good as SilverFast with my Epson V850 Pro. It also keeps some vintage scanners around here
running.
Zane
5:06 a.m.
New subject: HP C36xx and C37xx RAM kit - 4Gbyte
hi
I have 4 ram modules for sale, 1Gbyte each, 4Gbyte in total
I am asking 20 Euro + S/H. Located in Italy.
I also have an HP715 EISA expansion board
and an HP712 PSU
let me know if someone needs/wants them
8:55 a.m.
On Dec 20, 2018, at 4:55 AM, John Foust via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
At 02:07 PM 12/19/2018, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
The quality would be questionable, since you can?t get it totally flat and 11x14 negatives
are pretty thick. Also, I?m not going to risk damaging negatives whose primary purpose is
in creating darkroom prints. If I have one that I really need to make a large digital
print from, I?ll spend the $$$?s to get a drum scan done.
For something like my stack of DEC printsets, stitching would be an option. Another
option is a lightbox and a digital camera (at which point stitching is an option).
Zane
The Epson V850-Pro does pretty good at 8x10, and
produces scans capable of being printed at about 30???x40???. I *WISH* I could scan my
11x14 negatives.
Stitching several scans together isn't possible?
- John
19 Dec
19 Dec
2:31 a.m.
On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 at 22:08, Zane Healy via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Cindy, I?m curious, is there really a market for 8086/88, 286, and 386 computers? What
are folks using them for?
Judging from the FB "Vintage" Computer Club, yes, a small one.
For millennial-age geeks, pre-32-bit computers are antiques. They
_might_ just barely remember back to Win9x. So for them, a DOS machine
is a voyage of discovery into some of the more arcane pages of
history. The idea of computers or OSes that can't boot from CD blows
minds. For them, only elderly historical kit has 3?" floppy drives.
So yes, there is a little bit of demand, I reckon. Not highly
commercial, though.
--
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
3:51 a.m.
On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 11:31:47AM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
[...]
For millennial-age geeks, pre-32-bit computers are
antiques. They _might_
just barely remember back to Win9x. So for them, a DOS machine is a voyage of
discovery into some of the more arcane pages of history. The idea of
computers or OSes that can't boot from CD blows minds. For them, only elderly
historical kit has 3?" floppy drives.
Realistically, computers made before around 2010 *are* antiques: something
where the main value is due to its age rather than its utility.
The lack of intimate knowledge of machines from before one was born is not
surprising. You only learn it to that depth if it was current kit in your
youth. So us GenXers know rather more about 1980s Sinclair and Acorn machines
than is healthy, and earlier kit is a orange-and-wood-grain mystery.
So yes, there is a little bit of demand, I reckon. Not
highly commercial,
though.
It's a nostalgia market, and the stuff that's peaking is when those who are
starting to hit their mid-life crisis are getting nostalgic for the stuff of
their youth. That's now the 1995-2005 era, and 16 and 32 bit consoles are
flying off the shelves. There's a shop opposite Amsterdam Centraal station
which is packed to the rafters with second-hand games for 16 bit consoles, and
quite a few mail-order dealers dotted around villages here in the Noord-Holland
peninsula.
Are you feeling old yet?
4:01 a.m.
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 at 11:51, Peter Corlett via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Realistically, computers made before around 2010 *are* antiques: something
where the main value is due to its age rather than its utility.
I worked with "technicians" at HP 10 years ago who couldn't cope with
DOS.
--
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
--------
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift
4:14 a.m.
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 at 12:51, Peter Corlett via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Realistically, computers made before around 2010 *are* antiques: something
where the main value is due to its age rather than its utility.
Mostly, yup.
When my laptop gave me some problems, start of 2017, I fired up my old
~3GHz Core 2 Extreme box, my one-time Hackintosh, maxed out with 8GB
of RAM and a quick-ish 1TB hard disk.
I installed Win10 and got it fully updated.
It took 25min to open the Word document I was working on.
Nearly half an hour. OK, yes, a nearly 1GB Word doc, but *still*.
So I bought a newer laptop, a used Thinkpad X220, for ?150. It opened
the doc in about 3min.
There has been quite a lot of progress, and even a high-end decade-old
PC is very low-end now, whatever the specs suggest.
OTOH, it does have a floppy drive, which is why I keep it around.
The lack of intimate knowledge of machines from before
one was born is not
surprising. You only learn it to that depth if it was current kit in your
youth. So us GenXers know rather more about 1980s Sinclair and Acorn machines
than is healthy, and earlier kit is a orange-and-wood-grain mystery.
Absolutely. No disagreement there at all.
But because the kit is mysterious to them, they're willing to spend
money to get it and explore it.
Same as people are now actively seeking late-era fast 486s and early
Pentium-era boxes, for Win9x gaming. A lot of games didn't make the
transition to the NT-based Windows era, and for them, period kit is
the best way to play them.
I personally think it's barking but then I am not much of a gamer.
Are you feeling old yet?
Nah, I'm used to it.
--
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
4:35 a.m.
Absolutely. No disagreement there at all.
But because the kit is mysterious to them, they're willing to spend
money to get it and explore it.
Same as people are now actively seeking late-era fast 486s and early
Pentium-era boxes, for Win9x gaming. A lot of games didn't make the
transition to the NT-based Windows era, and for them, period kit is
the best way to play them.
I personally think it's barking but then I am not much of a gamer.
486 / early pentium computers have their own support challenges, both
hardware and software. The skills differ from the XT era PC clones and
such. This is definitely a vintage era of it's own, I call the GUI era to
differentiate it from the WWW era that followed it. The broader GUI
vintage includes all Windows/MAC, Amiga, NeXT, SGI desktops made for home
use, desktop publishing, mouse-driven applications, LAN comms, and before
widespread Internet communications. The GUI era would have its origins in
the 70's but it's heyday would be 1985-95.
To that end, there are some tough to find GUI era items that were trash 10
years ago that get a lot of $$ on Ebay now. Color adapter for NeXT,
certain Soundblaster cards for thr 486 PC, first gen Pentium 60/66
machines, Working / complete and functioning Novell network demos, BE
boxes, MAC Ivory systems, etc.
Bill
Are you feeling old yet?
Nah, I'm used to it.
--
4:40 a.m.
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 at 13:35, Bill Degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
486 / early pentium computers have their own support challenges, both hardware and
software. The skills differ from the XT era PC clones and such.
Yup.
This is definitely a vintage era of it's own, I
call the GUI era to differentiate it from the WWW era that followed it.
I like that distinction.
The broader GUI vintage includes all Windows/MAC,
Amiga, NeXT, SGI desktops made for home use,
Whoah whoah whoah, what?
SGI made home computers?!
desktop publishing, mouse-driven applications, LAN
comms, and before widespread Internet communications. The GUI era would have its origins
in the 70's but it's heyday would be 1985-95.
Yep, sounds about right.
To that end, there are some tough to find GUI era
items that were trash 10 years ago that get a lot of $$ on Ebay now. Color adapter for
NeXT, certain Soundblaster cards for thr 486 PC, first gen Pentium 60/66 machines, Working
/ complete and functioning Novell network demos, BE boxes, MAC Ivory systems, etc.
Yes indeed.
I recycled stuff in 2014 when I was leaving the country that's now
sellable -- and I did sell everything I possibly could.
5?" HD floppy drives -- if Fred will spare me, PC-AT style 1.2 MB
drives -- fetched $30--$40 each, and I had at least half a dozen of
'em.
--
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
5:08 a.m.
The broader GUI vintage includes all
Windows/MAC, Amiga, NeXT, SGI
desktops made for home use,
Whoah whoah whoah, what?
SGI made home computers?!
10:58 p.m.
SGI desktops
made for home use,
Whoah whoah whoah, what?
SGI made home computers?!
12:30 p.m.
SGI made MIPS, ITANIUM, and X86 workstations, servers, and personal workstations
low price MIPS workstations: SGI INDY, SGI O2
The SGI Indigo2 was very very expensive, especially the "Purple Impact"
See on YouTube, there is an episode made by a dude called "LGR"
SGI also made Pentium3 workstations. These run WindowsNT.
Not so expensive, but not so cheap.
Il giorno gio 20 dic 2018 alle ore 21:26 Sam O'nella via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> ha scritto:
I don't know that I saw a reply to this but I'm guessing the reference is the SGI
Indy? And maybe indigo could count as well for smaller systems that could fit on a desk
instead of desk-side models.
SGI
desktops made for home use,
Whoah whoah whoah, what?
SGI made home computers?!
19 Dec
19 Dec
8:33 a.m.
On Dec 19, 2018, at 3:51 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
It's a nostalgia market, and the stuff that's peaking is when those who are
starting to hit their mid-life crisis are getting nostalgic for the stuff of
their youth. That's now the 1995-2005 era, and 16 and 32 bit consoles are
flying off the shelves. There's a shop opposite Amsterdam Centraal station
which is packed to the rafters with second-hand games for 16 bit consoles, and
quite a few mail-order dealers dotted around villages here in the Noord-Holland
peninsula.
Are you feeling old yet?
The ?Retro? gaming market is booming, with plenty of new hardware and games! I have
numerous Atari 2600 cartridges released in the last couple years (some as recent as a
couple months ago). There is a market for new games for consoles up to the 16-bit era,
and even a few that are 32-bit. Some of these games are better than those originally
released.
Then there are places like GOG.com, selling virtualized copies of old PC games (I love
being able to easily play Master of Orion on my Mac).
From what I see locally any vintage Game Console does
really well, in part because with one or two exceptions, no floppies are involved.
Certain vintage consoles and certain game command big $$$?s.
My wife and all my kids are into Retro gaming. I like Retro games because I have slightly
less than zero time to play games. So when I have 5 minutes to spare, I can turn on the
Atari 2600 and play a couple games of something.
I have to wonder how many others are into Retro gaming due to the time commitments
required by modern games.
Zane
7:20 a.m.
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
So yes, there is a little bit of demand, I reckon. Not
highly
commercial, though.
There's enough of a market to support folks building replicas of the Adlib
sound card. I've seen evidence of a Sound Blaster 1.0 replica - I think
they called it the "Snood Bloober 1.0". (I was right, here's a pic of it,
with a bonus Windows 95 memorial decal in the background:
https://twitter.com/foone/status/1056716740191604737?lang=en )
There's also Jonathan's XT-IDE card for adding "modern" mass storage to
PC/XT class machines.
If you dig into it, there's a little cottage industry for these little
life-extending upgrades for old machines. It's kind of like the computer
industry making a full circle - people started companies building add-ons
in their kitchens in the 70's and 80's and now it's coming back to that
way again.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
9:56 a.m.
On 12/19/2018 08:20 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote:
There's enough of a market to support folks
building replicas of the
Adlib sound card.? I've seen evidence of a Sound Blaster 1.0 replica - I
think they called it the "Snood Bloober 1.0".
I've been following @foone's development of the Snood Bloober on
Twitter. I may have to see about acquiring one for my old play PC.
I tell my wife to think of the old PC(s) as my version of cars that some
people mess with. They are smaller, often (but not always) cheaper,
take up less space, and produce less noise or noxious fumes. -
Usually. Cavite emptor. - Some of the people I follow that own
mainframes are pushing the size of sub-compact cars.
There's also Jonathan's XT-IDE card for adding
"modern" mass storage to
PC/XT class machines.
If you dig into it, there's a little cottage industry for these little
life-extending upgrades for old machines.? It's kind of like the
computer industry making a full circle - people started companies
building add-ons in their kitchens in the 70's and 80's and now it's
coming back to that way again.
Yep. I find this market extremely entertaining, encouraging, and fun to
watch from the sidelines.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
11:21 a.m.
On 12/19/18 9:56 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
I've been following @foone's development of
the Snood Bloober on Twitter.
"Tube Time" is the developer of the adlib (now sold by the Russians on eBay) and
the SnBl
https://twitter.com/tubetimeus
11:33 a.m.
On 12/19/18 2:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
On 12/19/18 9:56 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
when will someone be coming out with another sound card with a
vacuum tube on it?
bill
I've been following @foone's development
of the Snood Bloober on Twitter.
"Tube Time" is the developer of the adlib (now sold by the Russians on eBay)
and the SnBl
https://twitter.com/tubetimeus
11:59 a.m.
On 2018-12-19 2:33 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
On 12/19/18 2:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
Hm, I do have some 12AX7's lying around...
--T
On 12/19/18 9:56 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
when will someone be coming out with another sound card with a
vacuum tube on it?
bill
I've been following @foone's development
of the Snood Bloober on Twitter.
"Tube Time" is the developer of the adlib (now sold by the Russians on eBay)
and the SnBl
https://twitter.com/tubetimeus
12:03 p.m.
they already? do? have this,,,,,? output? state is a? tube.......Ed#
In a message dated 12/19/2018 12:59:38 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at
classiccmp.org writes:
?
On 2018-12-19 2:33 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
On 12/19/18 2:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
Hm, I do have some 12AX7's lying around...
--T
On 12/19/18 9:56 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
when will someone be coming out with another sound card with a
vacuum tube on it?
bill
I've been following @foone's development
of the Snood Bloober on Twitter.
"Tube Time" is the developer of the adlib (now sold by the Russians on eBay)
and the SnBl
https://twitter.com/tubetimeus
12:10 p.m.
On 12/19/18 3:03 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:
they already? do? have this,,,,,? output? state is a?
tube.......Ed#
I know there was one. I was waiting for the newer model.
bill
In a message dated 12/19/2018 12:59:38 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at
classiccmp.org writes:
On 2018-12-19 2:33 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
On 12/19/18 2:21 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
Hm, I do have some 12AX7's lying around...
--T
On 12/19/18 9:56 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
when will someone be coming out with another sound card with a
vacuum tube on it?
bill
I've been following @foone's development
of the Snood Bloober on Twitter.
"Tube Time" is the developer of the adlib (now sold by the Russians on eBay)
and the SnBl
https://twitter.com/tubetimeus
12:08 p.m.
On 12/19/18 11:59 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote:
Well, there have been PC motherboards (I can't remember the brand) with
a single tube installed...
--Chuck
On 2018-12-19 2:33 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk
wrote:
when will someone be coming out with another sound card with a
vacuum tube on it?
bill
Hm, I do have some 12AX7's lying around... 
1:08 p.m.
On December 19, 2018 at 3:57 PM Al Kossow via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 12/19/18 12:17 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
But if his hands are cold, doesn't that mean the tubes are dead?
You'll get my vacuum tubes when you pry them
from my cold, dead hands.
sure thing,
let me know when you croak
12AX7's are going for stupid money now
1:17 p.m.
New subject: Vacuum Tubes, / Valves, funny money - was Re: More old stuff incoming
On 2018-12-19 3:57 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
On 12/19/18 12:17 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
I was going to disagree, but then:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/5-Telefunken-12AX7-ECC83-Tubes-Vtg-1960-Berlin-Germ…
I suspect this is not going to be true of all brands though.
--T
You'll get my vacuum tubes when you pry them
from my cold, dead hands.
sure thing,
let me know when you croak
12AX7's are going for stupid money now
1:17 p.m.
New subject: Vacuum Tubes, / Valves, funny money - was Re: More old stuff incoming
On 2018-12-19 3:57 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
On 12/19/18 12:17 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
I was going to disagree, but then:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/5-Telefunken-12AX7-ECC83-Tubes-Vtg-1960-Berlin-Germ…
I suspect this is not going to be true of all brands though.
--T
You'll get my vacuum tubes when you pry them
from my cold, dead hands.
sure thing,
let me know when you croak
12AX7's are going for stupid money now
4:13 p.m.
Just fixed a 66 Ampeg SB-13 guitar amp, the tubes are not cheap
On Wed, Dec 19, 2018, 5:26 PM Al Kossow via cctech <cctech at classiccmp.org
wrote:
On 12/19/18 12:17 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
You'll get my vacuum tubes when you pry them
from my cold, dead hands.
sure thing,
let me know when you croak
12AX7's are going for stupid money now
12:01 p.m.
New subject: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL WAS: RE: More old stuff incoming
"Tube
Time" is the developer of the adlib (now sold by the Russians
on eBay) and the
SnBl
> https://twitter.com/tubetimeus
12:10 p.m.
New subject: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL WAS: RE: More old stuff incoming
That FDC is not an XT-IDE, it's a copy of Sergey Kiesev's XT-FDC
controller. The same seller also saw fit to "cost optimize" the open source
XT-IDE rev 4 and remove my copyright/site info. It's no great step forward,
it's merely a copy of someone else's work with no attribution.
The controller chip used on that FDC is the same as found on some Adaptec
AHA-15xx series cards, which have been the go-to for a long time on adding
FM support to PCs whose onboard controllers don't support it.
Thanks,
Jonathan
On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 3:01 PM Ali via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Has anyone seen these before? They seem to be a new take (just a shrink
down) of the XT-IDE and an FDC controller that supports single density (FM)
and 2.88 ED drives (along with the usual PC stuff). The FDC is interesting.
I would have liked to have seen it be more like a CCIV w/ four drive
support and addresses but given that most FDCs will not support FM this is
a great step forward.
www.ebay.com/itm/DeluxeFloppy-8-bit-ISA-Bootable-HD-Floppy-Serial/332861819…
It also looks like someone tweaked the PAL code, originally decoded by
Chuck G., on the SB CM/S upgrade to get rid of some of the
incompatibilities...
www.ebay.com/itm/Improved-CMS-Upgrade-Kit-for-Sound-Blaster-2-0-CT1350B-com…
-Ali
"Tube Time" is the developer of the adlib
(now sold by the Russians
on eBay) and the SnBl
> https://twitter.com/tubetimeus
12:24 p.m.
New subject: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL WAS: RE: More old stuff incoming
That FDC is not an XT-IDE, it's a copy of Sergey
Kiesev's XT-FDC controller. The same seller also saw fit >to "cost
optimize" the open source XT-IDE rev 4 and remove my copyright/site info. It's no
great step >forward, it's merely a copy of someone else's work with no
attribution.
I thought that seller had permission? Also I never said the FDC was XT-IDE. The same
seller (from New Zealand) also sells a small XT-IDE card. I didn't bother linking to
it because there was nothing special about it.
The controller chip used on that FDC is the same as
found on some Adaptec AHA-15xx series cards, which >have been the go-to for a long time
on adding FM support to PCs whose onboard controllers don't support >it.
As for Sergey's I wasn't aware that he used the same chip as the Adaptec or that
his supported FM. Of course everyone knows about the 1540 which has driven prices up. I do
not know of anyone selling hobbyist FDCs at this time preassembled so this may be a good
source for those looking for one. If anyone is selling FDCs (is Sergey?) pre-assembled
then they maybe should get the business...
-Ali
3:59 p.m.
New subject: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL WAS: RE: More old stuff incoming
On 12/19/18 12:10 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote:
The controller chip used on that FDC is the same as
found on some Adaptec
AHA-15xx series cards, which have been the go-to for a long time on adding
FM support to PCs whose onboard controllers don't support it.
I don't think that's correct, when I look at my Adaptec 1542, which uses
(as did some Future Domain and DTC) SCSI controllers, the NSC 8473,
which was a very nice chip--it even supports writing 128-byte MFM
encoded sectors
The item shown uses the National 8477, which is basically a clone of the
old Intel 82077. Still good for FM, but not writing 128 byte sector MFM.
Micro Solutions initially shipped the CompatiCard IV with the Intel
chip--and it worked well. Intel then revised the chip as the 82077AA-1
to add tape support and broke the FM capability. When I inquired about
this to Intel, I got the response "Who uses FM anymore?". Micro
Solutions sent a bunch of retrofit kits with NSC chips in them to a
small bunch of CC IV purchasers after they discovered the problem.
Fortunately, the 8477 is pin-compatible with the 82077.
I remember working with Andrew on his card and assembled a prototype,
which worked, but showed some component placement issues. My objection
was the serial port and large ROM was completely unnecessary; in fact, I
left that unpopulated on my board.
FWIW,
Chuck
5:38 p.m.
New subject: NSC 8477 Was: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL
Micro Solutions initially shipped the CompatiCard IV
with the Intel
chip--and it worked well. Intel then revised the chip as the 82077AA-1
to add tape support and broke the FM capability. When I inquired about
this to Intel, I got the response "Who uses FM anymore?". Micro
Solutions sent a bunch of retrofit kits with NSC chips in them to a
small bunch of CC IV purchasers after they discovered the problem.
Fortunately, the 8477 is pin-compatible with the 82077.
Chuck,
Are you saying that CCIV initially had an NSC 8477 or an 8473? Or that it had an Intel
chip and when Intel came out with a new revision they went to an NSC chip? Also are all
CCIVs retrofitable? i.e. can I order an NSC chip and plop it into my CCIV to get FM back?
Finally can you drop in an NSC 8473 in a CCIV to get 128-byte MFM or the best you can do
is switch to a NSC 8477? TIA!
-Ali
9:20 p.m.
New subject: NSC 8477 Was: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL
On 12/19/18 5:38 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote:
No, the CCIV initially had a plain-jane Intel rev 0 82077AA in a 68 pin
PLCC. After Intel "improved" the chip to the 82077AA-1, FM ceased to
work. Fortunately, as I mentioned NSC 8477 is a plug-in replacement,
with the exception of not needing an extra external cap (the pin is NC
on the National chip).
--Chuck
Micro
Solutions initially shipped the CompatiCard IV with the Intel
chip--and it worked well. Intel then revised the chip as the 82077AA-1
to add tape support and broke the FM capability. When I inquired about
this to Intel, I got the response "Who uses FM anymore?". Micro
Solutions sent a bunch of retrofit kits with NSC chips in them to a
small bunch of CC IV purchasers after they discovered the problem.
Fortunately, the 8477 is pin-compatible with the 82077.
Chuck,
Are you saying that CCIV initially had an NSC 8477 or an 8473? Or that it had an Intel
chip and when Intel came out with a new revision they went to an NSC chip? Also are all
CCIVs retrofitable? i.e. can I order an NSC chip and plop it into my CCIV to get FM back?
Finally can you drop in an NSC 8473 in a CCIV to get 128-byte MFM or the best you can do
is switch to a NSC 8477? TIA!
12:25 p.m.
New subject: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL WAS: RE: More old stuff incoming
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Ali via cctalk wrote:
Has anyone seen these before? They seem to be a new
take (just a shrink
down) of the XT-IDE and an FDC controller that supports single density
(FM) and 2.88 ED drives (along with the usual PC stuff). The FDC is
interesting. I would have liked to have seen it be more like a CCIV w/
four drive support and addresses but given that most FDCs will not
support FM this is a great step forward.
www.ebay.com/itm/DeluxeFloppy-8-bit-ISA-Bootable-HD-Floppy-Serial/332861819…
SOME FDC will support FM.
SOME FDC can sorta do 128 byte sectors.
It looks nice, but,
I want a DC37 external connector, instead of the serial. Or use a header
for serial to give space for the DC37.
Or (would require moving stuff around a little, or a taller board), a
second 34 pin header, and a DC37 on a bracket with short cable.
Serial are a dime a dozen. IBM gave away FREE serial (and 20mA!) card
with XT, just to keep us from plugging anything into the 8th slot!
(OK, that one from IBM wasn't as fast as current, . . . )
Chances are real good that it already supports 4 drives, other than the
connector.
Trivia mods should be able to enable 3 drives, with "standard", instead of
IBM "twist" cable.
And NOT by repurposing SIDE SELECT like Radio Shack did for their fourth
drive!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
12:35 p.m.
New subject: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL WAS: RE: More old stuff incoming
I thought that seller had permission?
I don't remember what license, if any, Sergey chose for his work. Perhaps
it's in compliance. In any case, it's not a new design -- Sergey's wasn't
either, it was an improvement on the N8VEM XT-FDC project.
I intend on redoing Sergey's design, with permission, at some point in the
not too distant future. Personally, I want a DC37 and both card edge and
pin header internal 34-pin connections, so that I can drop the board in as
a replacement for a PC or XT floppy controller without changing cables. As
with the XT-IDE, onboard serial doesn't seem like much of a feature to me.
I've avoided redoing any of Sergey's designs as he'd contacted me some time
ago asking how the kit thing was working out with XT-IDEs. It'd sounded
like he intended to maybe run some of his designs and provide kits and/or
assembled+tested boards for hobbyists. I probably ought to reach out to him
and see if that's still the case or not.
Thanks,
Jonathan
On Wed, Dec 19, 2018 at 3:25 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018, Ali via cctalk wrote:
Has anyone seen these before? They seem to be a
new take (just a shrink
down) of the XT-IDE and an FDC controller that supports single density
(FM) and 2.88 ED drives (along with the usual PC stuff). The FDC is
interesting. I would have liked to have seen it be more like a CCIV w/
four drive support and addresses but given that most FDCs will not
support FM this is a great step forward.
www.ebay.com/itm/DeluxeFloppy-8-bit-ISA-Bootable-HD-Floppy-Serial/332861819…
SOME FDC will support FM.
SOME FDC can sorta do 128 byte sectors.
It looks nice, but,
I want a DC37 external connector, instead of the serial. Or use a header
for serial to give space for the DC37.
Or (would require moving stuff around a little, or a taller board), a
second 34 pin header, and a DC37 on a bracket with short cable.
Serial are a dime a dozen. IBM gave away FREE serial (and 20mA!) card
with XT, just to keep us from plugging anything into the 8th slot!
(OK, that one from IBM wasn't as fast as current, . . . )
Chances are real good that it already supports 4 drives, other than the
connector.
Trivia mods should be able to enable 3 drives, with "standard", instead of
IBM "twist" cable.
And NOT by repurposing SIDE SELECT like Radio Shack did for their fourth
drive!
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
12:35 p.m.
New subject: New takes on XT-IDE, a new FDC, and a new CM/S GAL WAS: RE: More old stuff incoming
> four drive support and addresses but given that
most FDCs will not
> support FM this is a great step forward.
...
SOME FDC will support FM.
SOME FDC can sorta do 128 byte sectors.
Fred,
SOME is not MOST ;). Yeah some will but if you were to pick up a generic
8bit FDC off of eBay chances are it won't
It looks nice, but,
I want a DC37 external connector, instead of the serial. Or use a
header
for serial to give space for the DC37.
Or (would require moving stuff around a little, or a taller board), a
second 34 pin header, and a DC37 on a bracket with short cable.
Agreed, as I said I would have liked to see more of the CompatiCard IV
functionality replicated. Or if they wanted to go above and beyond a 50 pin
internal header (for 8") and/or an edge connector (for 5 1/4") would also be
nice.... OR built in FDADAP functionality? How about better copying prowess
(e.g. put Copy II PC circuitry on the same FDC)? The deluxe chip might be
hard to replicate but the earlier TTL one should be doable)...
-Ali
12:08 p.m.
On 12/19/2018 12:33 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
when will someone be coming out with another sound
card with a vacuum
tube on it?
I didn't know that there was such for a personal computer.
That being said, I have seem pictures of hats for Raspberry Pis (and the
likes) that do have "valve" (what I assume are) finals.
I don't really care about the "valve" vs "tube" debate or which
side of
the pond you're from. I'm saying "valve" as an internal joke with a
friend.
--
Grant. . . .
unix || die
4:47 a.m.
On 2018-12-18 16:08, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:
> On Dec 18, 2018, at 11:36 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk <cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
Cindy, I?m curious, is there really a market for
8086/88, 286, and 386 computers? What are folks using them for?
There were some nice '386 and '486 machines out there. I actually got my
first original 5160 few weeks ago. Like to use it for my stupid PAL/GAL
programmer, which simply don't work with anything but DOS
And still few GPIB, SCSI, etc card which can be used on them ...
So, would still be interested in '386, '486, when nice ones show up
(preferably DEC, that's what I'm collecting)
So, actually not really for collecting, but maintaining collection ;-)
Cheers
18 Dec
18 Dec
4:21 p.m.
Thanks for doing this, Cindy!
Old Apollo and HP stuff (they used to be separate companies, but HP bought Apollo in the
late 1980s) is definitely something I and others want. There?s also a small aftermarket
for HP 9000/200 and HP 9000/300 equipment since there are still industrial control &
measurement systems that run on it.
Personally I?m quite interested in everything related to HP 9000, whether it?s the /200,
/300, /400, /700, or /800 series. (Not so interested in the /500 myself but I?m sure there
are plenty of people who are.)
-- Chris
1847
days inactive
1955
days old
97 comments
33 participants
participants (33)
-
abuse＠cabal.org.uk -
aek＠bitsavers.org -
barythrin＠gmail.com -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
bill.gunshannon＠hotmail.com -
billdegnan＠gmail.com -
carlojpisani＠gmail.com -
cc＠informatik.uni-stuttgart.de -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cctalk＠gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net -
cctalk＠ibm51xx.net -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
cmhanson＠eschatologist.net -
couryhouse＠aol.com -
dj.taylor4＠comcast.net -
emu＠e-bbes.com -
ethan＠757.org -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
ggs＠shiresoft.com -
healyzh＠avanthar.com -
jason＠smbfc.net -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jim.manley＠gmail.com -
john＠yoyodyne-propulsion.net -
lproven＠gmail.com -
macro＠linux-mips.org -
sales＠elecplus.com -
stark＠mit.edu -
stefan.skoglund＠agj.net -
systems.glitch＠gmail.com -
toby＠telegraphics.com.au -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com -
wrcooke＠wrcooke.net