2 Nov
2006
2 Nov
'06
10:25 a.m.
-------------Original Message:
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
Subject: Re: Discussion of large systems
No matter how you cut it, sorting on tape beat sorting cards on unit
record equipment...
Cheers,
Chuck
--------------Reply:
Mind you, an 082/083 sorter with cards feeding across and dropping into
their compartments is as much a part of the "old computer" image as
spinning tape reels...
And considering the cost of CPU time and the fact that input data was
still on punched cards in most cases, it was usually more efficient and
cost-effective to still sort the cards off-line and then copy/merge to/with
tape.
Ah, fond memories of carrying stacks of 5-6000 cards across the room
to the collator (or, later, the high-speed card reader), not to mention the
inevitable day when you bumped into someone and scattered half a
megabyte of data across the data centre floor and under the machinery;
now _that_'s fragmentation!
m
11:19 a.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
In article <454A19D2.2000305 at topinform.de>,
Andreas Holz <asholz at topinform.de> writes:
What about a classiccmp wiki?
I think someone tried to make such a "knowledge base" once but it was
dubious.... go back and read the "washing keyboards in the dishwasher"
thread :-).
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
11:31 a.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
Richard wrote...
I think someone tried to make such a "knowledge
base" once but it was
dubious.... go back and read the "washing keyboards in the dishwasher"
thread :-).
www.classiccmp.org/kb
I wouldn't say it's completely useless. It sure could use more
contributions.
I was going to give it a facelift, but was still waiting on the website
programmer who wanted to redo it.
Jay
11:38 a.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
In article <00fc01c6fe9c$6b4512c0$6700a8c0 at BILLING>,
"Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> writes:
I wouldn't say it's completely useless.
No, I wouldn't say that either.
It sure could use more
contributions.
See my other comments -- I know that when I look at that, I'm not
interested in contributing because I have to go through someone else.
I was going to give it a facelift, but was still
waiting on the website
programmer who wanted to redo it.
Why reinvent the wheel? Its not like there are no freely available,
well maintained and robust alternatives. Deploy something from that
list I just posted.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
5:14 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
--- Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Richard wrote...
Well...Beats tough dirt fast! Don't knock it until
you've tried it. And I'm not responding based on the
article, but the thread which appeared ~3 months ago.
But that had more to do with submerging the unit in a
soapy mix, rather then tossing it in the washer. And
not a hint of soap scum!
____________________________________________________________________________________
Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited
(http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited)
I think someone tried to make such a
"knowledge
base" once but it was
dubious.... go back and read the "washing
keyboards in the dishwasher"
thread :-).
www.classiccmp.org/kb
I wouldn't say it's completely useless. It sure
could use more
contributions. 
11:20 a.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:16:18 +0100
Andreas Holz <asholz at topinform.de> wrote:
What about a classiccmp wiki?
Check out http://classiccmp.org/kb/
-Ryan
11:29 a.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
In article <20061102112050.93062a73.blairrya at msu.edu>,
Ryan Blair <blairrya at msu.edu> writes:
Check out http://classiccmp.org/kb/
The problem with this is that everything goes through one person.
Often times individuals on here get too busy to do anything in a
timely fashion, myself included.
I have no problem with "you have to be approved before you can do
anything" type system, but having everything go through one person
isn't really workable.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
11:36 a.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
In article <E1GffRV-0003bQ-00 at xmission.xmission.com>,
Richard <legalize at xmission.com> writes:
In article <20061102112050.93062a73.blairrya at msu.edu>,
Ryan Blair <blairrya at msu.edu> writes:
To clarify:
A real /wiki/ has a user database where users can register and then
contribute organically to the content without having to go through
someone else. This "kb" doesn't have any sort of user system. There
are plenty of freely available collaborative content management
systems out there, see <http://www.la-grange.net/cms> for instance.
I've used drupal (worked fine) and attempted to use xoops (too little
documentation, buggy).
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Check out http://classiccmp.org/kb/
The problem with this is that everything goes through one person.
[...]
11:43 a.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
Richard wrote....
A real /wiki/ has a user database where users can
register and then
contribute organically to the content without having to go through
someone else. This "kb" doesn't have any sort of user system.
I'm not going to hash this whole war again. It comes up about once a year
when someone unfortunately steps in it.
Every time it was discussed, the list membership at large generally felt
that a wiki was not a good forum for the type of discussion that occurs on
the mailing list. You are trying to fault the knowledge base because it is
not a wiki. It was never intended to be a wicki. You are comparing apples
and oranges. A knowledgebase and a wiki are to entirely different things.
The knowledgebase was not intended to be a wiki or act like a wiki or fill
the role of a wiki. And a wiki was decided against.
Jay
11:53 a.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
In article <012b01c6fe9e$00aca480$6700a8c0 at BILLING>,
"Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> writes:
I'm not going to hash this whole war again. It
comes up about once a year
when someone unfortunately steps in it.
I'm not trying to start a war :-).
I'm just saying why I personally haven't bothered to contribute to the
"kb" and why the existing "kb" isn't a wiki.
Me personally I'm happy with searching the list archives or just
asking. But then the archive searcher has its own availability
problems...
[...] You are trying to fault the knowledge base
because it is
not a wiki.
Not at all, I'm just saying that it isn't a wiki.
It was never intended to be a wicki.
That's good, because it isn't one :-).
and oranges. A knowledgebase and a wiki are to
entirely different things.
The knowledgebase was not intended to be a wiki or act like a wiki or fill
the role of a wiki. And a wiki was decided against.
Fine by me. I don't find the kb thing useful anyway.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
11:56 a.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki, OK pls. Stop any further Discussion!
Ok, sorry for my posting. Please stop any further diskussion!
Andreas
12:29 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
"Jay West" wrote:
...
The knowledgebase was not intended to be a wiki or act
like a wiki or fill
the role of a wiki. And a wiki was decided against.
Not to be argumentative, but you sound exactly like someone who's never
really participated in a wiki-centric community.
If you tried it (and correct me if you have), you might find you like it.
-brad
12:47 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
Brad Parker wrote:
Not to be argumentative, but you sound exactly like
someone who's never
really participated in a wiki-centric community.
If you tried it (and correct me if you have), you might find you like it.
Well I like email-lists ( other than send.me.spam :) ) since I
don't have to navigate thru a web site. How soon do you expect the
wiki will have 'Pee Cee' stuff on it, my guess is 15 minutes or
a sex ad posted.
12:54 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
On Nov 2, 2006, at 12:47 PM, woodelf wrote:
Yep. It's rare for a community survive a mailing list -> wiki
transition. Things that start out as wikis seem to do ok, but they
tend to attract a slightly different crowd...those who think a web
browser is "how you access the Internet". ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Cape Coral, FL
Not to be
argumentative, but you sound exactly like someone who's
never
really participated in a wiki-centric community.
If you tried it (and correct me if you have), you might find you
like it.
Well I like email-lists ( other than send.me.spam :) ) since I
don't have to navigate thru a web site. How soon do you expect the
wiki will have 'Pee Cee' stuff on it, my guess is 15 minutes or
a sex ad posted.
1:07 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
Dave McGuire wrote:
Yep. It's rare for a community survive a mailing list -> wiki
transition. Things that start out as wikis seem to do ok, but they
tend to attract a slightly different crowd...those who think a web
browser is "how you access the Internet". ;)
That's a good point.
I guess what I'd like to see is something like the gumstix wiki. I
place where I could go find lots of "how I solve my pdp-11/44 unibus
problem" articles. Or "here's a list of places which sell those hard to
find proms you want"...
Not a place for discussion, a place to put text and links which are
relevant to the list.
maybe it's a bad idea, but it sure seems like it could work.
-brad
1:17 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
Brad wrote.....
I guess what I'd like to see is something like ...
snip ...
where I could go find lots of "how I solve my pdp-11/44 unibus
problem" articles. Or "here's a list of places which sell those hard to
find proms you want"...
Not a place for discussion, a place to put text and links which are
relevant to the list.
That is exactly what a knowledge base is ;)
Jay
5:48 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
"Jay West" wrote:
Brad wrote.....
True.
But I can't just go edit it and add my content easily and "make a little
part of it my own"...
I think that's what makes Wiki's work so well. People feel invested in
the content.
-brad
I guess what I'd like to see is something
like ... snip ...
where I could go find lots of "how I solve my pdp-11/44 unibus
problem" articles. Or "here's a list of places which sell those hard to
find proms you want"...
Not a place for discussion, a place to put text and links which are
relevant to the list.
That is exactly what a knowledge base is ;) 
4:26 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
It's rare
for a community survive a mailing list -> wiki transition.
Things that start out as wikis seem to do ok, but they tend to
attract a slightly different crowd...those who think a web browser
is "how you access the Internet". ;)
That's a good point. from email to wiki, just imagine what kind of attrition
rate you'd have
in a community that self-selects for old-school-ness.
I certainly know that to *me*, a wiki is about as useful as any other
webpage - which is to say, only minimally; I definitely would be among
those lost if classiccmp goes that way.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
4:40 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
On Thursday 02 November 2006 16:26, der Mouse wrote:
I certainly know that to *me*, a wiki is about as
useful as any other
webpage - which is to say, only minimally; I definitely would be
among those lost if classiccmp goes that way.
Jesus. Can we all stop bitching???
NO ONE SAID THAT CLASSICCMP WAS GOING TO BECOME A WIKI, AND STOP BEING A
MAILING LIST.
NO ONE.
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
5:58 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
--- Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
Patrick Finnegan wrote:
Wow, I missed all the good stuph. Looked like a great
fight. Pat looks sooo pissed LOL LOL.
And I was going to say, what's wrong with a wiki type
knowledge base thing as an addendum to the list.
What's say ye we compromise fellas?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited
(http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited)
NO ONE SAID THAT CLASSICCMP WAS GOING TO BECOME A
WIKI, AND STOP BEING A
MAILING LIST.
who are you calling a mailing list!? :-)
4:52 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
Patrick wrote....
NO ONE.
You know, over my years of hosting this list... I have noticed that there is
a set of single-word topics that always cause an uproar on the list. These
magical words seem to stimulate arguments, shouting, cursing, pleas for
calm... and general angst. This set of "trigger words" seems to also
magically recur on roughly a yearly basis.
In an effort to promote peace and harmony, I will set the list to
automatically send any posts that contain these trigger words to
"/dev/null". Some examples of these words would be: Reply-To, Wiki, classic,
off-topic, blog, politics, and 'jay west'.
(and if anyone doesn't realize that the above is meant to be a humorous
tongue-in-cheek joke, your posts to that effect WILL be dev/null'd *grin*)
Jay
5:09 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
On Thu, 2 Nov 2006, Julian Wolfe wrote:
I want Archie!
Actually, I had to look up Archie to remember what it was, but there seems
to be a menu buried deep in my subconscious memory where WAIS and Archie
were adjacent menu items (thus thinking of WAIS immediately brought Archie
up). I wonder on what box (or in what year) I last saw said menu?
Alexey
NO ONE SAID THAT CLASSICCMP WAS GOING TO BECOME A WIKI, AND
STOP BEING A MAILING LIST.
NO ONE.
Starting Monday, it will only be available via WAIS.
5:54 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
der Mouse wrote:
I certainly know that to *me*, a wiki is about as useful as any other
webpage - which is to say, only minimally; I definitely would be among
those lost if classiccmp goes that way.
btw, I'm not recommending or advocating getting rid of the mailing list.
Wiki's are not interactive and don't promote discussion.
I think a wiki would be a nice adjunct. It could become something like
an "annotated bitsavers" if we all put things there.
But it certainly would not replace the mailing list.
-brad
6:03 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
--- Brad Parker <brad at heeltoe.com> wrote:
I think a wiki would be a nice adjunct. It could
become something like
an "annotated bitsavers" if we all put things there.
But it certainly would not replace the mailing list.
-brad
O man now BRAD has to add his 2 pence. LOL LOL *only
kidding*
What about one of those webring things, where whoever
belongs to the ring is *responsible* for a topic (like
shampooing keyboards) or group of them. Personalized
web pages have more of an appeal I think, and would
tend to more draw peeps in then stale old wiki
articles.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail
(http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/)
11:37 a.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
Richard wrote....
The problem with this is that everything goes through
one person.
Often times individuals on here get too busy to do anything in a
timely fashion, myself included.
I have no problem with "you have to be approved before you can do
anything" type system, but having everything go through one person
isn't really workable.
Ok, perhaps you can clarify something for me then. Submissions to the
knowledge base are (unfortunately) few and far between. So how is waiting
for the approval of a post to the knowledge base a problem when there is not
a flood of posts to it?
More to the point, remember that the knowledge base is NOT meant to be a
discussion forum. For that, moderating every post would be a major pain. But
it is NOT meant to be a discussion forum. It's meant to be a repository for
specific answers and information that come up frequently.
Jay
11:42 a.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
In article <011501c6fe9d$44613660$6700a8c0 at BILLING>,
"Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> writes:
Ok, perhaps you can clarify something for me then.
Submissions to the
knowledge base are (unfortunately) few and far between. So how is waiting
for the approval of a post to the knowledge base a problem when there is not
a flood of posts to it?
You misunderstand me -- I'm saying I have no problem with "I approve
this user to have the power to make edits" to prevent spammers from
signing up and filling the place with ads that someone has to go and
actively remove.
However, once approved to make edits, I can submit and edit to my
heart's content.
More to the point, remember that the knowledge base is
NOT meant to be a
discussion forum. For that, moderating every post would be a major pain. But
it is NOT meant to be a discussion forum. It's meant to be a repository for
specific answers and information that come up frequently.
Non sequitur. I didn't say anything about a discussion forum.
However, generally wikis allow comments on articles by others,
although this can certainly be disabled if you just want articles with
no comments.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
12:27 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
"Jay West" wrote:
Ok, perhaps you can clarify something for me then. Submissions to the
knowledge base are (unfortunately) few and far between. So how is waiting
for the approval of a post to the knowledge base a problem when there is not
a flood of posts to it?
I think people are much more apt to post if they can do it right away
and immediately see their text and then edit it again. I know I am.
It's meant to be a repository for
specific answers and information that come up frequently.
and that's exactly what good wiki's become... but there is no one
person in charge... which is why it works so well. the user feels
empowered, which is quite motivating.
-brad
12:24 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
Ryan Blair wrote:
On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 17:16:18 +0100
Andreas Holz <asholz at topinform.de> wrote:
That's nice, but it's a not a wiki. The magic of a wiki is that there
is a community which keeps it current and accurate.
The "zen" is that you don't try to make it perfect, and a you accept
that people will add broken, bogus things. You treat is as a garden
which needs constant tending...
and I actually think it would work given the group of people here.
-brad
What about a classiccmp wiki?
Check out http://classiccmp.org/kb/ 
11:21 a.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
Andreas Holz wrote:
What about a classiccmp wiki?
Want it? Start it!
http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Start_a_new_Wikia
Peace... Sridhar
11:39 a.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
Sridhar wrote....
Want it? Start it!
http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Start_a_new_Wikia
Just as an FYI - I really do not wish for people to gate the posts/traffic
here elsewhere without talking to me about it first.
Jay
11:50 a.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
Jay West wrote:
Sridhar wrote....
Who said anything about gatewaying anything? Starting a wiki doesn't
imply gatewaying traffic or forwarding messages or anything else. It
just means starting a website anyone can edit that contains articles.
Peace... Sridhar
Want it? Start it!
http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Start_a_new_Wikia
Just as an FYI - I really do not wish for people to gate the
posts/traffic here elsewhere without talking to me about it first.
11:28 a.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
Andreas wrote...
What about a classiccmp wiki?
It was discussed at great length and started many long (at times
argumentative) threads. I decided not to do it.
However, I need to go back and check with the person who was working on the
classiccmp website and see if a wiki was in my plans as I honestly don't
recall at the moment.
Jay West
3 Nov
3 Nov
2:47 p.m.
New subject: Classiccmp Wiki
It was thus said that the Great Andreas Holz once stated:
What about a classiccmp wiki?
I know I'm coming to this a bit late (work and all) but I did set up such
a beast back in November of 2003:
http://www.flummux.org/cgi-bin/ccwiki.pl
It's still there.
-spc (And hasn't been updated since November of 2003 ... )
2 Nov
2 Nov
12:04 p.m.
On 2 Nov 2006 at 10:25, M H Stein wrote:
And considering the cost of CPU time and the fact that
input data was
still on punched cards in most cases, it was usually more efficient and
cost-effective to still sort the cards off-line and then copy/merge to/with
tape.
I suppose that relibility was about the same--the chance of creating
a mangled card in unit-record gear was probably about the same as
that of mangling it in a 1442.
Ah, fond memories of carrying stacks of 5-6000 cards
across the room
to the collator (or, later, the high-speed card reader), not to mention the
inevitable day when you bumped into someone and scattered half a
megabyte of data across the data centre floor and under the machinery;
now _that_'s fragmentation!
Not to mention the joy of loading trays of cards holding your magnum
opus onto an I/O cart and watching the clerk racing with it across
the raised computer floor hit a loose filler strip... :)
Cheers,
Chuck
6511
days inactive
6512
days old
38 comments
18 participants
participants (18)
-
alexeyt＠freeshell.org -
asholz＠topinform.de -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
blairrya＠msu.edu -
brad＠heeltoe.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
chrism3667＠yahoo.com -
dm561＠torfree.net -
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
fireflyst＠earthlink.net -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
legalize＠xmission.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
mouse＠Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
spc＠conman.org